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GateWorld
September 18th, 2009, 01:27 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2009-3.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SPECIALS:</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE END OF TIME, PART 1</A></FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Faced with the prophecy of his own death, the Doctor learns that his greatest foe is about to be resurrected -- with a new plan to conquer the human race.

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Reefgirl
December 25th, 2009, 11:16 AM
well that was the biggest load of rubbish I've seen in a while, the best bit was June Whitfield groaping The Doctor. Even the dulcet tones of Timothy Dalton couldn't save it. Thank God this and the next is the last RTD drivel we'll see.

Steven Moffat, your public await you

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 25th, 2009, 11:37 AM
I quite liked it, certainly better than the giant robot stamping on London last christmas. However it wasn't epic, it was just good and that's unfortunate because these last two eps may decide how some people remember Tennant's era.

The Master's return was...not very well executed. What the hell is the 'Book of Saxon' and why didn't they mention it in Series 3? I ignored this and continued to watch, being drawn into Simm's acting :) Then things got stranger. The Master was like Gollum, only he had superpowers. I shrugged and continued, and ultimately adored it when the Master and the Doctor finally confronted each other and, instead of fighting it out, they talked of Gallifrey and the Master's past.

The 'I want my daughter to live forever' storyline sucked, although I did like the two cactus aliens who knew the machine was alien and wanted it back.

Wilfred Mott is awesome as always - 'She's a cactus!', and I enjoyed his emotional scene in the cafe' with the Doctor.

As for the last twenty seconds featuring James Bond and his congregation of surviving Time Lords? :S O...M...G Please don't make it like the return of the ancients, please please don't make the Time Lord's complete idiots for no reason :(

What I would have preferred;

The Doctor told the Master that a great darkness was coming and drawing the two of them together, so I would have had the two reluctantly team up (as like in 'The Five Doctors') to resist a greater enemy. The character development/interaction could have been incredible, and then the ultimate sympathy as one or both of our favourite Time Lords have to regenerate by the episode's climax.

I think that this would have been far more interesting than relying almost completely on the Master's insanity to be the main negative force.

6.5/10.

PMN1
December 25th, 2009, 11:44 AM
Ahh, Dr Who meets The Matrix......

Draygon
December 25th, 2009, 12:32 PM
There was plenty of potential with this, it was just slightly bogged under all these unexplained plot devices, liek the Book of Saxon and the Master's sudden superpowers.

I can't help but think that John Simm had great fun with the end of the episode and the gerneal acting crazy :P Shame we have to wait a week for the next episode, hopefully it'll up the pace and epicness.

Matt G
December 25th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Hmmm...

1. Liked the early scene with Lucy - surprised nothing more came of it.

2. Master bouncing everywhere. WTF?

3. Master eating people. WTF?

4. Immortality Gate and cactuses. Cool idea.

5. Wilfred and mystery woman. WTF?

6. Donna gets her memory back. Cool.

7. Humanity gets Masterised? Think you've overdone it there RTD.

8. Timelords. WTF?

Fun, in a very warped way. One hell of a lot of questions marks for next week.

PMN1
December 25th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Hmmm...


3. Master eating people. WTF?




Back up option when you dont have a matter condensation device.....

Zarius
December 25th, 2009, 02:06 PM
So is Obama a straight ginger who should be replaced by an Aeryn or am I missing something?

I loved it. Good, proper Doctor Who as always. I liked how accomplished it was. Yes, there was a lot of exposistion, but once The Master was abducted the story slowed to a quieter pace and was furthered by dialouge and suspense. Even the most obvious of cliffhangers came off as something I didnt expect. Wilf was a trooper, and Donna was used rather graciously.

Props to RTD for restoring the omnipotence of The Time Lords. It's been a long time since they were seen as forboding, capable of mercy and terror simotaniously with what they can do. The Lady In White is a great use of the Time Lord's concept, she inspires a selfless, kind soul like Wilf to take arms and prepare to commit murder if neccersary, which leads to his moral dillema in the "Next Time" trailer, he obviously donest want to take a life, but he wants The Doctor to.

Tennant's scene in the diner as he breifly chokes up should have been played up more. He shrugs it off immediatly and the scene is neglected afterwards to build towards the cliff-hanger. He takes a moment to pity himself as he faces his mortality

****


please please don't make the Time Lord's complete idiots for no reasons

Robert Holmes was doing that years before anyone else.

pbellosom
December 25th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Well that was...disapointing. Immediately it might fare better in a rewatch where I'm not quite so tipsy from Christmas lunch but still. It seemed horrifically disjointed, the Master's return seemed ridiculously Deus Ex Machina especially with no mention of why he can now fly and zap people with his hands and I have always been very vocally against the return of the Time Lords.

Admittedly I did love most the bits with John Simm, he did amazingly well with such an awful script and the bit at the end where everyone was him and they celebrated I thought was really well done despite it ripping off the Matrix (if only it hadn't come from nowhere).

On an unrelated note, whatever happened to the scene that filming photos of circulated the net a while back with the Doctor confronting Nurse Joan's granddaughter in a book shop about her publishing his diary (Spoilers in case it somehow turns up in Part 2, I don't see how but in a story this disjointed...)

Zarius
December 25th, 2009, 02:47 PM
How did it "rip off The Matrix"? The Matrix itself ripped that idea off from a lot of concepts pioneered by other books and films.

The Master Race was more a tribute to the movie "Being John Malcovtich" than The Matrix

LiliJ
December 25th, 2009, 02:57 PM
IThe Doctor told the Master that a great darkness was coming and drawing the two of them together, so I would have had the two reluctantly team up (as like in 'The Five Doctors') to resist a greater enemy. The character development/interaction could have been incredible, and then the ultimate sympathy as one or both of our favourite Time Lords have to regenerate by the episode's climax.

I think that this would have been far more interesting than relying almost completely on the Master's insanity to be the main negative force.

6.5/10.

I'm thinking this is what they might use for the next episode. After all, the whole way through they were saying there's something bigger and worse than what the Master was up to...


Ahh, Dr Who meets The Matrix......

How did I not realise this immediately!! Please enter Neo... :P


Hmmm...

1. Liked the early scene with Lucy - surprised nothing more came of it.

Yeah - love her character, she would have made a great addition to the plot!!


5. Wilfred and mystery woman. WTF?

Ramona. I hope :P


7. Humanity gets Masterised? Think you've overdone it there RTD.

Try, but who else now wants to go there?! (just me...? ;))


Fun, in a very warped way. One hell of a lot of questions marks for next week.

So just like normal then! :P

I must say though - Davies is kinda a story stealer. Obv can see the influence of the Matrix in this. And all the way through the series I've been spotting other stories... These are the main ones, although I'm sure there are more.

- S2 finale: the end of The Amber Spyglass (I can give 5 parallels they used - obvious rip off).

- S4 finale: the basic plot from Life, the Universe and Everything (Hitch Hiker's Guide part 3) - the reality bomb, the pocket of time, one race left at the end of the universe, and they even used the theme tune at one point!!

- Xmas Ep: Neo's jumps + Agent Smith's cloning of himself within the Matrix.

*sigh*

Still v enjoyable though! :D And obv there are only so many stories, especially within this genre, but still, sometimes they could be a bit more subtle! :P

LiliJ
December 25th, 2009, 03:01 PM
How did it "rip off The Matrix"? The Matrix itself ripped that idea off from a lot of concepts pioneered by other books and films.
The Master Race was more a tribute to the movie "Being John Malcovtich" than The Matrix

hmm... true. Like I said, only so many stories! :P

stargatefan234
December 25th, 2009, 03:53 PM
just reposting


A new trailer and scenes from the second instalment (MAJOR SPOILERS)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSDdvNObe8c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPhRn-1pzdo

Ian-S
December 25th, 2009, 04:39 PM
John Simm in a strange selection of dresses was priceless....

Other than that very disappointed, nothing surprised me, I know this is mostly for kids so I let some things slide like the negative skulls thing, but I am so glad this is RTD's last two episodes that anything Steven Moffat produces is going to be better than this.

RTD seemed to run out of stories about 2 years ago, I just hope Moffat doesn't burn out so quickly.

Pharaoh Atem
December 25th, 2009, 05:12 PM
john simms was epic in PT1 :D the whole matrix feel doesn't bother me at all. i find it interesting that the master's resurrection went wrong and now he's just this hungry craze loon. stuck in the same body as saxon.

i have high hopes for donna in pt 2 the whole doctor/donna character could pay off wonderfully if done right. i do find it disturbing that the master turned all humans into "the master race" :S

and at the end with the time lords .....:confused: how are their back ....grrrr pt 2 can't come quick enough

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 25th, 2009, 05:52 PM
:S

It won't be the same next year. I have very high hopes for series 5, because having seen every episode since the revival back in 2005 I can safely describe Moffat's as being the best;

- Blink
- The Lonely Child/The Doctor Dances
- Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
- Girl in the Fireplace

I think once Moffat's series comes out, the show will return to the 'hiding behind the sofa' days, because yes he is a far superior writer and has illustrated a far superior imagination in his creatures and characters than RTD has. His baddies have actually been scary, and that is what the classic series gained a lot of its fame for. I don't hate RTD, I think he is a good writer but Moffat will prove he is better, I'm certain of it.

The climax of series 4 sucked, and the specials that followed have been okay so far (with the exception of Waters on Mars, which was absolutely brilliant).

End of Time Part One was good, but not great. And it should have been great. I hope Part Two picks up or it'll scar Tennant's era for me if it ends badly.

Oh, and I'm so hoping there's a preview for the 2010 series at the end of next episode :D

Skydiver
December 25th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Let's try to discuss the show without whinging about other fans

and if you can't do that, then go play somewhere else.

I'm not going to be able to see this for another 24 hours, and if i get spoiled having to come in here and moderate the disrespectful and rude, i will NOT be happy.

Ashizuri
December 25th, 2009, 06:25 PM
I have to admit, I was unimpressed. Simm, as always, is a star, but as a whole it seemed pretty uninspired. Part 2 can hopefully redeem it because I'd hate to see Tennant go out on a low note.

Also, Moffat > Davies. I've never been a big Davies fan. I give him full credit for reviving the series, but I am more than ready for the Moff, ready to have more wonderful "Everybody lives Rose! Just this once, everybody lives!" moments.

DigiFluid
December 25th, 2009, 08:10 PM
Not overwhelmed, but enjoyed it just the same. Feels like it was just a major setup for Part Two.

And if, as the end indicates, Gallifrey and the Time Lords are returning....well, I guess that's why the next series is being promoted as Series One rather than Five.

Joachim
December 25th, 2009, 11:04 PM
Part one was rather unimpressive.

I'm hoping part two clears that up.

PMN1
December 25th, 2009, 11:47 PM
When did the Tardis get a cloak?

dr_rock
December 26th, 2009, 01:58 AM
Probably when the doctor got fed up of the TARDIS being dragged off, Donna-doctor already made it clear that the chameleon circuit would be easy to repair, (spoiler tagged for future eps)when I heard about a "new look TARDIS" for Doctor 11 I immediatly thought that this meant the chameleon circuit would be fixed.

pbellosom
December 26th, 2009, 02:42 AM
When did the Tardis get a cloak?

When did the Master get super powers?

People/things with unexplained powers and abilities seems a theme of this episode

supremeaaron
December 26th, 2009, 02:46 AM
When did the Tardis get a cloak?

It's not a cloak he put it a second out of sink so it appears invisible. It is like what the Daleks did with the earth and all those planets last year. I say the doctor got the idea from Davros.

Flyboy
December 26th, 2009, 03:39 AM
Not overwhelmed, but enjoyed it just the same. Feels like it was just a major setup for Part Two.

And if, as the end indicates, Gallifrey and the Time Lords are returning....well, I guess that's why the next series is being promoted as Series One rather than Five.
What... promoted as series 1? What?

LaCroix
December 26th, 2009, 07:44 AM
The only thing worth saying about this episode is, I'm happy that David is getting out as of right now.

RTD, don't let the door hit you. Also I was going to give Matt Smith a fair go as 11, but what with 5 years of watching RTD destroy 2 shows right in a row. I'm gone.

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 26th, 2009, 07:47 AM
What... promoted as series 1? What?

I think he means its being promoted as almost an entirely new show, what with a new logo, new Tardis, new Doctor, new companion, new baddies, new executive producer, etc :P

Pharaoh Atem
December 26th, 2009, 08:28 AM
I think he means its being promoted as almost an entirely new show, what with a new logo, new Tardis, new Doctor, new companion, new baddies, new executive producer, etc :P

from my crazd who fan co-worker i'm hearing the same thing. but i don't care it's series 31 to me damn it

Pharaoh Atem
December 26th, 2009, 08:29 AM
When did the Tardis get a cloak?

it was out of phase. but on a similar note i loved the locking the tardis gag. only doctor who :P

DigiFluid
December 26th, 2009, 08:44 AM
What... promoted as series 1? What?
Doctor Who Magazine, August 2009. (Wiki citation 19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_serials#Eleventh_Doctor))

But, like PA, it'll be series 31 to me too :)

Pharaoh Atem
December 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM
you know like the master said about never dying i could live with his character returning ever 2-3 seasons it would be nice and something to look forward too

stargatefan234
December 26th, 2009, 10:42 AM
you know like the master said about never dying i could live with his character returning ever 2-3 seasons it would be nice and something to look forward too

maybe not every 2 or 3 years but i agree don't kill him off.

I say that based on what RTD has done, 5 series finales (counting end of time as 1), 3 had the daleks, 2 had/have the master... seems he doesn't have many ideas for series finales. dont know what Moffat will do, but would like not to have a dalek or master finale next year. perhaps if the moffat had it in his head to bring the master back regularly it would be too easy to bring him back in season finales.

Replicator Todd
December 26th, 2009, 11:11 AM
I looooooved this episode! The ending had me in complete shock, no way was I expecting that! I am truly going to miss RTD and David Tennant, I will never forget this era of Doctor Who. And if the 11th Doctor is being advertised as series 1, that makes alot of sense, but I am still not looking forward to the next series. I will still give it a try. (I am the oddball who likes RTD's episodes more than Moffat's)

stargatefan234
December 26th, 2009, 11:22 AM
I looooooved this episode! The ending had me in complete shock, no way was I expecting that! I am truly going to miss RTD and David Tennant, I will never forget this era of Doctor Who. And if the 11th Doctor is being advertised as series 1, that makes alot of sense, but I am still not looking forward to the next series. I will still give it a try. (I am the oddball who likes RTD's episodes more than Moffat's)

I wouldn't say Moffat > RTD, but IMO rtd last epsidoes are all solved by a deus ex machima,

EOT: i havent seen it yet and i know some how the timelords/the doctor will turn every back to themselves
WOM: that bloody robot
POTD: a decent ending
Journeys end: meta crisis doctor and The DoctorDonna

even LOTTL and the year that never was.

MasySyma
December 26th, 2009, 07:18 PM
That was bad. It didn't make sense, and it had more filler than substance.

The Good:

The scene with Lucy Saxon. Too bad she appears to be gone now. I hope she can return.

The cacti aliens. I also liked the reference to VOTD.

The Bad:

The Saxon files and various potions. That makes about as much as sense as a gun in four parts with the ammo spread across the world. The Master was on Earth for 18 months but managed to find yahoos crazy enough to die for him, marry, build the Archangel Network, and plot the end of the universe. I realize this is Scifi, but the stretch is getting way to big here.

JS eating and eating and eating. Or laughing and laughing and laughing. We needed one scene of super eating to understand the way the Master's body consumes food. The rest of the scenes just felt like filler. We get it; the Master is insane. I didn't need binging scenes, cannibalism, constant discussion of the drums, a desparate mind-meld, and manicial laughter to know that.

The creepy father/daughter pairing. They aren't creepy as villains; their creepy because he almost treats as her a wife rather than a daughter. And what is up with the father not wanting immortality? Right. Is something wrong with the daughter?

Wilf. He doesn't seem to understand that the return of Donna's memories could kill her. He keeps saying "make her better" as if the Doctor just needs to cure a cold. His early scenes also took too long.

The Cliff Hanger. The Time Lords are back. Ok. Since they didn't seem that great, am I supposed to be impressed? Frankly, I've seen so many decent shows jump the shark once they restore/find/rebuild their central power structure that I don't want the Time Lords back. If even half of the jumbled stuff I've seen about Romanna?, the Rani, and forced regenerations is even half true, I'm not sure I want them back. I don't watch Doctor Who for political infighting among obnoxious, out-of-touch administrators.

A weak episode. May the second half be far better, but I'm so looking forward to the Moffat era. I would like to like the show again.

6/10.

Madeleine
December 27th, 2009, 07:39 AM
I loved it.

The Doctor was on form, I liked his scenes with Wilf, and it was touching to see him actually worried about dying. The cacti were the fun kind of look I've got used to with new Who. The whole mystical Book of Saxon thing could have done with a little foreshadowing, but hey, it brought back John Simm so I'll let that pass.

The Master being skeletal and eating people was a bit of the sort of hide-behind-the-sofa stuff that I used to see on old Who.

And while not necessarily the best cliffhanger ever (close, just not the best) it was most certainly the biggest cliffhanger I've ever seen.

As to when the Tardis acquired a cloak, it was probably after the recent SJA episode where the TARDIS was hidden from certain people in the episode by being half a second out of synch. Doctor must've got the idea that it'd be handy.

Can't wait till next week :)

Ian-S
December 27th, 2009, 09:22 AM
He just put the Tardis out of sync with the timeline, "can't have the master finding the Tardis" was the line.

I listened to the podcast last night while watching it again, quiet interesting, especially the bits about JS taking a bit, spitting into a bucket then taking another bite, the hamburger was harder to do than the turkey according to them.

But WTF, is RTD's ego the size of California or what? "compromises are for idiots" was one line that really showed what the guy is like, glad he's leaving (oh I said that already sorry :) )

They also talked about some cut scenes, the guards at the end, their helmets allowed them to see the Master in his skeleton guise, but the showing of that was cut, and there was another scene by the burger van where the woman said "Happy Christmas" to ginger etc. and the Master went onto some nutty rampage about "It's MERRY Christmas not HAPPY Christmas - we don't say "Merry New Year" etc. etc. which sounded quiet funny.

Flyboy
December 27th, 2009, 09:26 AM
He just put the Tardis out of sync with the timeline, "can't have the master finding the Tardis" was the line.

I listened to the podcast last night while watching it again, quiet interesting, especially the bits about JS taking a bit, spitting into a bucket then taking another bite, the hamburger was harder to do than the turkey according to them.

But WTF, is RTD's ego the size of California or what? "compromises are for idiots" was one line that really showed what the guy is like, glad he's leaving (oh I said that already sorry :) )
What was that last statement in regards to?

Ian-S
December 27th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Oh sorry, the podcast, I listened to the first few minutes and nearly turned it off because he seemed so up himself, I can't remember what he said but he kept saying something like "Loyal Fans" over and over, it wasn't what he said, it was the way he said it. The "compromises are for idiots" line is from the podcast, I got the impression he was quiet "up" himself and couldn't see fault in anything he did.

I don't know it may be some in-joke, it's the first Who podcast I've every listened to, I couldn't sleep lol.

The podcast is here: here. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/episodes/?playlist=/doctorwho/playlists/s0_09/audio/s0_09_aud_01.xml&audio=1&date=&summary=With%20Julie%20Gardner%20and%20Russell%20T%20Davies&promo=/doctorwho/medialibrary/images/main-promo/s4_01_trl_03.jpg&info=&info2=&info3=&tag_file_id=s0_09_aud_01), you can sync it up with the episode from the link above and watch/listen to both together which is what I did.

Saquist
December 27th, 2009, 12:13 PM
I've looked a little at this Dr. Who thing and I remember what Tom Baker and Peter Baker Who's and they so much better....I liked Eccelson when he was on but the big budget movie guy was going to leave at some point....

Even then the show was very very strong and not just from a corny bad special effects standpoint...but it seems they're being purposefully stupid...

I can't take the Master seriously....It's gawdy....
What kinda master plan is this...his acting sucks....

Teddybrown
December 27th, 2009, 12:45 PM
Thought this episode was quite good. Lots of things I didnt expect
Didnt expect the ending with the Master turning everyone into the 'Master' race and then the Time Lords appearing. The Matrix didnt pop into my head until i was reading on here, but thought it was lol when they showed him in all different clothes, and he has definately gone a bit mad. Heard the Time Lords were returing but didnt expect that ending

Cant wait till the next episode to see how it all pans out. The Time Lords seem kind of evil. But New Year is definately going to be all eyes on Doctor Who for me lol

Ian-S
December 27th, 2009, 02:44 PM
The time lords seem very much like the Ancients from SG, arrogant & self righteous.

Erised
December 27th, 2009, 02:59 PM
I was too happy to see some new Doctor Who to care how good/not good it was, but not that I've had time to think about it... WTF were they thinking?

takreem
December 27th, 2009, 03:16 PM
new user.

Agree 1st part was overly wordy - looking fwd to the conclusion though

Is it a coincidence that "Wilfred Mott" is an anagram of "Timelord ? WTF ?"

hmmmmmm

Girlbot
December 27th, 2009, 03:31 PM
The time lords seem very much like the Ancients from SG, arrogant & self righteous.
Also they say they are non interfering.
Although the Timelords were on the TV secne way before the SGA ancients, so I would say SGA ripped off Dr Who.
I hadn't read any spoilers about the ep, and I was surprised to see the Timelords again and the ending, well interesting, but we'll see where it goes next week. I saw ony the previews they showed on BBC America, and will remain unspoiled about the ep. I like surprises.

Pitry
December 27th, 2009, 03:51 PM
It's a difficult one. Overall, I really liked it.

Yes, the Master resurrection scene was beyond silly. Camp is not just a row of tents :) His Evil Masterplan was silly, too, but I suppose it has a point.

Most of the rest was brilliant, though. The Master-Doctor scenes were touching. The Doctor's confession to Wilf brought them damned tears to my eyes... and I do think this is not a reset of his going over the edge in Waters of Mars. The Doctor lost control here, too, if not in the same way - so this time he doesn't change history, he just starts crying in front of a human. ;) T'was so touching ....

LOVED Sylvia seeing the Doctor! "Merry Christmas... now go the hell away!" :D

Would have liked to see some more Donna, though. :(

And well, of course. The ending.
I knew they'll be back I knew they'll be back mwahaha! I LOVE it. Also, part 2 spoilers from the clip on the BBC website
I love it that they're fighting their death and trying to prevent the end of the Time War. That they know all along they're going to die - I wonder what it says about the Doctor, what the Doctor knew etc. and if they knew before what appears to be a time loop?

Squee and bring on part 2!

Sealurk
December 27th, 2009, 04:07 PM
I found it...I dunno, actually. I'm undecided.

I liked:

Doctor and Wilf (especially in the cafe)
Donna's back...sort of!
The very last scene.
Old TARDIS learning new tricks.
Some of The Master's scenes (mainly with the Doctor)
Doctor talking about what it feels like to regenerate
Shimmer!

Most of the rest was mediocre to me, some of it poor.

Still looking forward to part two, but now it's almost to make sure DT's actually leaving - sorry, he's starting to get on my nerves. I may just cheer when he regenerates....

Ian-S
December 27th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Is it a coincidence that "Wilfred Mott" is an anagram of "Timelord ? WTF ?"


They said in the podcast that he wasn't a sleeper Timelord, RTD made quiet a big thing about it and said the reference to Soldier made by the Woman on the TV was because he had missed out on WW2 by only a few months and had carried round this burden with him that he hadn't fought in the War when everybody assumes that he did.

Of course he could be doing a Ron Moore, the gun is also very significent and will be explained more in part 2.

Speculation for Part 2:

I think Wilfred is going to be the one to kill the Master, I can picture this final showdown after they've dealt with the Timelords and fixed the Master Race. Wilfred, Master and Doctor together, Master goes to kill Wilfred, Doctor pushes Wilfred out the way and takes the bullet so to speak, Wilfred then shoots the Master, Doctor regenerates. Perhaps even RTD will address the 12 Regenerations thing and maybe instead of regenerating, the Master finally see's the errors of his ways and passes his regenerations over to the Doctor like the Doctor did in the last season's finale (when he stopped himself changing and gave the regeneration power to his hand). Or the Timelords will address the regeneration thing themselves.

Wasn't Billy Piper supposed to be in this too?


Also they say they are non interfering.
Although the Timelords were on the TV secne way before the SGA ancients, so I would say SGA ripped off Dr Who.

Very good point there Sir! I had forgotten what came first.

DigiFluid
December 27th, 2009, 05:13 PM
A little bit of part 2 speculation:

The Doctor does die, and the Time Lords resurrect him--thereby restarting his regeneration cycle and solving the 13 lifetimes issue that would be coming up in a couple of years.

Col.Foley
December 27th, 2009, 05:58 PM
I think this episode was really build up
And what a build up that it was too:D.
This episode was very much Doctor Who, and a good episode, the return of the time lords was indeed shocking, as was what the Master did with the Gate thingy. Plenty of humor...some weirdness...but this is Doctor Who:P.
Though actually his super powers were explained because he was able to 'eat himself' just some thoughts anyway, certainly explains the hunger.
Can't wait for next weeks:D

GateTrek2004
December 28th, 2009, 12:00 AM
A little bit of part 2 speculation:

The Doctor does die, and the Time Lords resurrect him--thereby restarting his regeneration cycle and solving the 13 lifetimes issue that would be coming up in a couple of years.

If this is true, you deserve a prize!

Admiral Mappalazarou
December 28th, 2009, 05:55 AM
I'm kinda hoping who turned up in the end of Part One is a result of what happened because of the Doctor in the end of The Waters of Mars.

The Doctor goes crazy with time, and that had a load of unforseen consequences. Maybe the breakdown of the time-lock surrounding the Time War.

Ian-S
December 28th, 2009, 06:28 AM
A little bit of part 2 speculation:

The Doctor does die, and the Time Lords resurrect him--thereby restarting his regeneration cycle and solving the 13 lifetimes issue that would be coming up in a couple of years.

He is already the 13th, remember he regenerated last series but stopped himself changing appearance after a Dalek shot him.

There's a preview scene on YT that seems to suggest as I've seen speculated that the Time Lords exist outside of our normal timeline, so the Time War could still be going on now in some wierd sort of way but the Time Lords and Daleks are locked inside together.

stargatefan234
December 28th, 2009, 06:31 AM
He is already the 13th, remember he regenerated last series but stopped himself changing appearance after a Dalek shot him.

There's a preview scene on YT that seems to suggest as I've seen speculated that the Time Lords exist outside of our normal timeline, so the Time War could still be going on now in some wierd sort of way but the Time Lords and Daleks are locked inside together.

by the logic he wasted a regeneration, he would be the eleventh doctor, not the 13th.

like the ood said, "time is bleeding, events that have happened are happening now".

Atlanis
December 28th, 2009, 08:51 AM
I did not see that ending comming

PMN1
December 28th, 2009, 09:03 AM
I'm kinda hoping who turned up in the end of Part One is a result of what happened because of the Doctor in the end of The Waters of Mars.

The Doctor goes crazy with time, and that had a load of unforseen consequences. Maybe the breakdown of the time-lock surrounding the Time War.

Just what the universe needs, another lunatic Time Lord, though having seen the trailers, some of the others don't seem to be entirely all there.

The_Carpenter
December 28th, 2009, 09:12 AM
I'm kinda hoping who turned up in the end of Part One is a result of what happened because of the Doctor in the end of The Waters of Mars.

The Doctor goes crazy with time, and that had a load of unforseen consequences. Maybe the breakdown of the time-lock surrounding the Time War.
I'm sure Dalek Caan had something to do with the timelock breaking... he did manage to rescue Davros from the Time War after all.

Replicator Todd
December 28th, 2009, 09:43 AM
I'm sure Dalek Caan had something to do with the timelock breaking... he did manage to rescue Davros from the Time War after all.

Thats right! It might of caused problems having a whole bunch of Daleks missing from the War.

Puddle-Jumper
December 28th, 2009, 09:44 AM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=10368895#post10368895

Go me!

tricky
December 28th, 2009, 01:11 PM
Love all the ideas I'm seeing here, but one thing still bugs me: What IS up with Wilfred?
He's been popping up on the show before we knew who Donna Noble was. He seems to be able to find the Doctor with ease, yet he seems to be a normal elderly British citizen. The Mystery lady (and who is she? now two things bug me!) said that he was a soldier who never killed. A clue, or character backsory?
Right now, I've got a few ideas of what's going on with our man Wilf.
1) he is a timelord. He saved himself the same way the Doctor and the Master did. Think about it; they either both came up with that method independantly, or somewhere they found out about it. Maybe he ran, maybe he was sent to Earth, but he's a timelord.
This also gives you an 'out' with the Donna situation: being partly timelord (possibly), the Doctor could find a way to really help her, OR he could transfer all that knowledge and power to Wilf! (this would also be why he seems to not understand that the Doctor can't fix her: part of him knows he's a time lord too!)

2)Wilf is something greater than a Timelord, hiding out on Earth: Elder god, Ancient, First one, the guy who locked up the Beast; it doesn't matter. He's actually greater than everyone ( perhaps the woman in white is connected to him? his power hidden in his mind), and at some point, he is going to show his true face.

3) Wilf is what he says he is: all this is coincidence, or manipulation by someone (woman in white?). He's just a regular bloke, with really good (or bad, depending on your point of view) luck.

Thoughts?

PMN1
December 28th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Love all the ideas I'm seeing here, but one thing still bugs me: What IS up with Wilfred?


From the trailer that is floating around on Post 13, he seems pretty handy in a turret....using the Force??

PMN1
December 28th, 2009, 02:45 PM
Love all the ideas I'm seeing here, but one thing still bugs me: What IS up with Wilfred?


The chameleon circuit on his Tardis is functioning too well and makes even him think its just an ordinary allotment shed even when he is inside it and the gun is actually a laser screwdriver.....

Ian-S
December 28th, 2009, 02:53 PM
I fell about laughing when he tried to answer his gun when the phone range, the Mrs whacked me and said "this is supposed to be a serious scene, shut up!"


by the logic he wasted a regeneration, he would be the eleventh doctor, not the 13th.


Slaps forehead with wet kipper, I dunno where I got he was the 13th from oops.
I blame the Mrs, see ^^ LOL.

Aerilon
December 29th, 2009, 12:44 PM
Wasn't Billy Piper supposed to be in this too?Yeah, she was, as was Captain Jack.


The Doctor does die, and the Time Lords resurrect him--thereby restarting his regeneration cycle and solving the 13 lifetimes issue that would be coming up in a couple of years.That would actually make sense. We know in the new 2010 series, the Doctor gets a new Tardis, new Screwdriver, the works really. Its a good chance that him, his Tardis, and his trusted screwdriver all perish, and are ressurected (in the Tadris' case, grown) and set off again..


I fell about laughing when he tried to answer his gun when the phone range, the Mrs whacked me and said "this is supposed to be a serious scene, shut up!"Haha, that was brilliant.

stargatefan234
December 29th, 2009, 01:40 PM
Yeah, she was, as was Captain Jack.

That would actually make sense. We know in the new 2010 series, the Doctor gets a new Tardis, new Screwdriver, the works really. Its a good chance that him, his Tardis, and his trusted screwdriver all perish, and are ressurected (in the Tadris' case, grown) and set off again..

Haha, that was brilliant.

there's still 75 minutes left, and scenes with billie piper WERE filmed

Reefgirl
December 29th, 2009, 02:05 PM
From the trailer that is floating around on Post 13, he seems pretty handy in a turret....using the Force??

I'm glad I'm not the only one who spotted that, I half expected him to say "They're coming in too fast"

zolutar
December 30th, 2009, 10:25 AM
I dont think anyone has put much stock into the impact of Waters of Mars into this, Changing a fixed point in time having ramifications.
I dont beleive the Doctor did it first, but something is happening where this timeline is coming to an end because of something being undone in the past.

this should be interesting

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 02:50 PM
The Good
>The Master makes a mean Mistress.
>The Doctor talking to Wilfred and seeing Donna. That one scene made the whole thing for me. I really felt for the Doctor and his fear of both dying and regenerating.
>Donna! I love you! Please get to use some of that knowledge in your mind!
>Torchwood mention!
>The Doctor's sleigh ride in the intro spot.:D
>Is the woman in white that Wilf sees Romana?
>The TARDIS in stained glass.

The Bad
>Timothy Dalton's spit.
>The Time Lords're coming back? That's like bringing back Krypton... Wait. That just happened. Never mind.
>The Master race. Though hilaRious, it's just... cheesy. And I don't feel much trepidation for the human race.

The Ugly
>Lucy Saxon? The Book of Saxon? The cheesy 'floating in mid air amidst energy' sequence? The badly cgi'd Master flying bits? The black guy and his daughter and their slightly incestuous relationship and horrid acting? WTF?!

The Verdict
I enjoyed it, despite much of it being highly cheesy. I enjoyed Waters of Mars far more. :( I can't wait for part 2!

Ian-S
December 30th, 2009, 02:57 PM
Lucy Saxon ugly?
I thought she looked quiet fetching in that skimpy tracksuit.

*prays wife never sees this*

DigiFluid
December 30th, 2009, 02:59 PM
I don't think he meant Lucy Saxon was ugly, but that the part involving her was silly ;)

Of course Lucy Saxon is stunning. Even a sweatsuit can't make her any less sexy.

Flyboy
December 30th, 2009, 03:02 PM
I don't think he meant Lucy Saxon was ugly, but that the part involving her was silly ;)

Of course Lucy Saxon is stunning. Even a sweatsuit can't make her any less sexy.
Actually I thought the sweatsuit made her MORE attractive.


But then I'm weird like that...

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 03:14 PM
You like your women exercised and sweaty, I take it. :D

Lucy is far from ugly, but her storyline could use a good plastic surgeon.

I was hoping that UNIT would be behind the Master's resurrection. I mean, the Doctor isn't always there and it's always handy to have a Time Lord around, even a psycho one. :D Yes, I'm using that flawed, faulty and self-destructive human logic there. ;) I wanted them to resurrect him [thinking they could control him] and lose control of him, as expected. Humans again bringing about their own destruction. But, alas, nope.

And what was with the Master having a Sappho cult hellbent on his resurrection? Could it be related to the nunnery that the Doctor saved in the 13th C, the one Wilf was told about? I was thinking so, but I suppose I'm linking too many things... Unless the Doctor goes back in time with the 'great darkness' that's coming during the 2nd episode and destroys it on that spot, then the TARDIS gets the stained glass treatment. Hmm. Yup, thinking too hard.:(

DigiFluid
December 30th, 2009, 03:18 PM
I just watched Part 1 again, and man I can't shake the feeling that Wilfred Mott is involved with the Time Lords somehow.

The Doctor keeps encountering him, even before he met Donna. Donna was able to handle the human/Time Lord mix. Now he's the only one seeing the woman in white, who said to him that he was a soldier who joined the war too late to do anything--without actually saying which war she was referring to. Yes with the revolver it's pretty heavily implied that it's WW2, but I do find it intriguing that it's not specified.

Some sort of Time Lord sleeper agent perhaps?

Flyboy
December 30th, 2009, 03:23 PM
You like your women exercised and sweaty, I take it. :D


Damn right. ;)




Lucy is far from ugly, but her storyline could use a good plastic surgeon.

I was hoping that UNIT would be behind the Master's resurrection. I mean, the Doctor isn't always there and it's always handy to have a Time Lord around, even a psycho one. :D Yes, I'm using that flawed, faulty and self-destructive human logic there. ;) I wanted them to resurrect him [thinking they could control him] and lose control of him, as expected. Humans again bringing about their own destruction. But, alas, nope.



Hmm. That would have been good - if a unfortunate that UNIT always appear rather blundering/evil these days (except in Planet of the Dead). The cult thing WAS a bit bonkers. And on that I was really hoping the squads hunting the Master were government. Not UNIT or Torchwood... but whichever gang were the antagonists in CoE. UNIT are too clear cut in their intentions - I do like a bit of conspiracy.

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 03:25 PM
Digi... You're saying that Wilf may be a Time Lord who used the chameleon arch to become human and had a kid who had a kid who became half Time Lord? Or is that what I'm saying? :D

DigiFluid
December 30th, 2009, 03:27 PM
Digi... You're saying that Wilf may be a Time Lord who used the chameleon arch to become human and had a kid who had a kid who became half Time Lord?
Yeah I think that about covers it :p

Or something like that, anyway ;)

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Hmm. That would have been good - if a unfortunate that UNIT always appear rather blundering/evil these days (except in Planet of the Dead). The cult thing WAS a bit bonkers. And on that I was really hoping the squads hunting the Master were government. Not UNIT or Torchwood... but whichever gang were the antagonists in CoE. UNIT are too clear cut in their intentions - I do like a bit of conspiracy.UNIT were kinda evil in PotD. Holding a gun at the scientist's head in order to make him shut the portal and strand the Doctor [and the little people]? Bad UNIT! Bad! Also foolish UNIT. Even if a swarm of stingrays came through while waiting for the Doctor, they had the TARDIS right there. The Doctor in the TARDIS can deal with a few civilization-eating space fish.

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 03:34 PM
Yeah I think that about covers it :p
Or something like that, anyway ;)In that case... the Time Lords ALL escaped Gallifrey by becoming human and sending themselves back to 20th/21st C Earth, leaving Wilf to pop out a watch and resurrect them all when the time was right? Nope, that'd be too much. I want some huge temporal thing to bring back the Time Lords... if they must come back at all. I really prefer the Doctor alone, but maybe he's been alone too long. I think that was the point of episodes like 'Dalek', 'Turn Left' and especially 'Waters of Mars'. The Doctor all by himself is a danger to himself and the universe. Maybe bringing back a hierarchy to rebel against will be good for him.

DigiFluid
December 30th, 2009, 03:42 PM
In that case... the Time Lords ALL escaped Gallifrey by becoming human and sending themselves back to 20th/21st C Earth, leaving Wilf to pop out a watch and resurrect them all when the time was right? Nope, that'd be too much.
Don't put words in my mouth, I just said Wilf, not all the Time Lords :p

I'm interested to see how all this fits together though. The four drumbeats, one beat from each heart of two Time Lords (the Doctor and the Master)? And the Master being the only one to hear it, is he the key to the resurrection of their race?

Pitry
December 30th, 2009, 04:25 PM
I just watched Part 1 again, and man I can't shake the feeling that Wilfred Mott is involved with the Time Lords somehow.

The Doctor keeps encountering him, even before he met Donna. Donna was able to handle the human/Time Lord mix. Now he's the only one seeing the woman in white, who said to him that he was a soldier who joined the war too late to do anything--without actually saying which war she was referring to. Yes with the revolver it's pretty heavily implied that it's WW2, but I do find it intriguing that it's not specified.

Some sort of Time Lord sleeper agent perhaps?

Well, remet Donna - he did meet Donna first in the Runaway Bride.
But yes. IT definitely starts feeling suspicious with Wilf. As long as he survives part 2, I don't care though.
Well, I will care if he turns out to be The Doctor's and the Master's secret father... :P


UNIT were kinda evil in PotD. Holding a gun at the scientist's head in order to make him shut the portal and strand the Doctor [and the little people]? Bad UNIT! Bad! Also foolish UNIT. Even if a swarm of stingrays came through while waiting for the Doctor, they had the TARDIS right there. The Doctor in the TARDIS can deal with a few civilization-eating space fish.

(they were also pretty evil in Fragments....)

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 04:57 PM
How DARE they arrest Tosh for making her own vibr... sonic device!

Secret father. LOL! Is that like a secret Santa? "You have my DNA! Surprise!"

Sadly, the whole "Who are you, Wilfred?" seemed far too much like what happened with Donna at the end of s4. The Doctor is clearly a snob; no 'little people' can have anything to do with him more than once, only big time-manipulatingly important beings dare apply to see him twice or more. Hmph.:D

Flyboy
December 30th, 2009, 05:00 PM
Well, remet Donna - he did meet Donna first in the Runaway Bride.
But yes. IT definitely starts feeling suspicious with Wilf. As long as he survives part 2, I don't care though.
Well, I will care if he turns out to be The Doctor's and the Master's secret father... :P



(they were also pretty evil in Fragments....)


I dunno, I think Fragments was realistic. They weren't evil - just professional. Fair play to them, it was one of their best portrayals imo.


How DARE they arrest Tosh for making her own vibr... sonic device!

Secret father. LOL! Is that like a secret Santa? "You have my DNA! Surprise!"

Sadly, the whole "Who are you, Wilfred?" seemed far too much like what happened with Donna at the end of s4. The Doctor is clearly a snob; no 'little people' can have anything to do with him more than once, only big time-manipulatingly important beings dare apply to see him twice or more. Hmph.:D

You're right. It did seem very samey.

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 05:04 PM
I realize they're building up to a big reveal with Wilf, but I would have liked if it was more Donna's subconscious helping him find the Doctor ("Gramps, go down to x Street and get me some milk." *Wilf runs into the Doctor.*). As it is, Donna's most likely the reason he met the Doctor in the first place. She got the first xmas special, Wilf got the second and was still in London in spite of the perceived alien 'threat'.

nx01a
December 30th, 2009, 10:29 PM
Watching the special, the scene with Lucy, the Master and the Cult of Saxon reminded me of something: the spoof Doctor Who: The Curse of Fatal Death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYpaSzw1qck). The sequence with the Doctor and the Master talking about who time traveled and bribed the architect first was a bit like Lucy and the Master talking about preparation for his return. Hilarious, but I'm not sure it's what RTD intended. And don't forget the lightning bolts the Master's firing. :D

Pitry
December 31st, 2009, 03:47 AM
I dunno, I think Fragments was realistic. They weren't evil - just professional. Fair play to them, it was one of their best portrayals imo.



Well, the whole arrested-without-a-trial-and-put-in-a-2X2-cell-without-even-a-bed-or-toilets-til-the-end-of-time-or-failing-that-when-Jack-decided-he-needs-her... I wouldn't call that professional.

JennyJumper
December 31st, 2009, 06:43 AM
I'm gunna miss Tennent, he was possibly the best Doctor ever!!!

PMN1
December 31st, 2009, 08:03 AM
Lucy Saxon ugly?
I thought she looked quiet fetching in that skimpy tracksuit.

*prays wife never sees this*

Google has some interesting images of Alexandra Moen if you take the safe search off......:)

Ian-S
December 31st, 2009, 01:02 PM
lovely thanks :)

The Doctor met Wilf first iirc, in the xmas special about the titanic - think that's right, runaway bride came after that didn't it? (I might have got that wrong, too much new years drink)

Anyway I normally don't like repeating myself but it's a new page so... lol, RTD said in the podcast the war reference was the 2nd world war and he wasn't a time lord, of course they could be doing a Ron Moore and lying through his teeth but hey, we'll find out tomorrow.

I'm still of the thinking:
Wilf will kill the master after the master kills the doctor and the woman on the tv will reserect the doctor into matt smith who will fix the master race etc.

random thought, doesn't the new doctor's assistant look a lot like a younger Donna Noble? along with Smith looking a lot like a young Tennant.

*goes off to google Alexandra Moen* :D
comes back
*holy smoke she's done some stuff hasn't she!*

nx01a
December 31st, 2009, 02:50 PM
Runaway Bride was first. Donna was his first post-Rose companion. AND THE BEST!!!!

Flyboy
December 31st, 2009, 02:53 PM
Runaway Bride was first. Donna was his first post-Rose companion. AND THE BEST!!!!
Jack is cooler.

Replicator Todd
December 31st, 2009, 03:16 PM
Runaway Bride was first. Donna was his first post-Rose companion. AND THE BEST!!!!

Martha Jones FTW! :P (IMO)

But I just can't see Wilf as not being human, I think the Doctor is mega paranoid, which is understandable because of his current situation.

SGalisa
December 31st, 2009, 03:47 PM
...This episode was very much Doctor Who, and a good episode, the return of the time lords was indeed shocking
...but this is Doctor Who:P.

I wasn't shocked, but found it more intriguing -- as this is "Doctor Who" and anything can happen.. :D


Just what the universe needs, another lunatic Time Lord, though having seen the trailers, some of the others don't seem to be entirely all there.

There were many eps in *classic* DWho where the Doctor's best defense was to appear insane. Of course, one had to see the eps to figure out whether it was just temporary insanity or a desperato plot to save his own life. ;)


The Good
>Donna! I love you! Please get to use some of that knowledge in your mind!
...
>The TARDIS in stained glass.

ditto to Donna! Tho I do have a gut feeling and only that -- to believe she will be extremely instrumental in EoT- Part 2.
regarding the TARDIS in stained glass.. does that now imply it as the "Church of the TARDIS"..? :p


I was hoping that UNIT would be behind the Master's resurrection. I mean, the Doctor isn't always there and it's always handy to have a Time Lord around, even a psycho one. :D Yes, I'm using that flawed, faulty and self-destructive human logic there. ;) I wanted them to resurrect him [thinking they could control him] and lose control of him, as expected. Humans again bringing about their own destruction. But, alas, nope.

And what was with the Master having a Sappho cult hellbent on his resurrection? Could it be related to the nunnery that the Doctor saved in the 13th C, the one Wilf was told about? I was thinking so, but I suppose I'm linking too many things... Unless the Doctor goes back in time with the 'great darkness' that's coming during the 2nd episode and destroys it on that spot, then the TARDIS gets the stained glass treatment. Hmm. Yup, thinking too hard.:(


Hmm. That would have been good - if a unfortunate that UNIT always appear rather blundering/evil these days (except in Planet of the Dead). The cult thing WAS a bit bonkers. And on that I was really hoping the squads hunting the Master were government. Not UNIT or Torchwood... but whichever gang were the antagonists in CoE. UNIT are too clear cut in their intentions - I do like a bit of conspiracy.

nah.. I think UNIT has had enough bad run-in's with The Master in previous cycles of The Doctor's lives that the Master earned the reputation to be added (by now) onto UNIT's
DO NOT CALL LIST..!! :D


Runaway Bride was first. Donna was his first post-Rose companion. AND THE BEST!!!!

Actually, there were a few others *before* Rose.
Sarah Jane Smith and Leela made a close tie. Opposites in upbringing, but similar in character strength and goal determinations. :)

nx01a
December 31st, 2009, 03:55 PM
You mean that he had some good companions before Rose? Sure he did. Romana and Sarah Jane are the best of those, IMHO, but Donna was the one who was most like a friend to him. The poor guy just needed a friend and she was his best friend.

nx01a
December 31st, 2009, 03:58 PM
regarding the TARDIS in stained glass.. does that now imply it as the "Church of the TARDIS"..? :pThat would be hilaRious. The anti-Cult of Saxon :D preparing for this Doctor's final fight against the 'darkness' since the final fight happened in the 13th C. Wow. Paradox! Ouch. Temporal mechanics give me a mild toothache.

SGalisa
December 31st, 2009, 04:24 PM
Secret father. LOL! Is that like a secret Santa? "You have my DNA! Surprise!"

oh my! that would definitely be quite a legacy.. except I think the Master and the Doctor came from two different families, based on how the Master was discussing their childhood.


Sadly, the whole "Who are you, Wilfred?" seemed far too much like what happened with Donna at the end of s4. The Doctor is clearly a snob; no 'little people' can have anything to do with him more than once, only big time-manipulatingly important beings dare apply to see him twice or more. Hmph.:D

I didn't get *that* negative *snobby* type of impression.
Instead, over the course of years and visitations by both companions and lifeforms everywhere, the Doctor knows that certain people and "beings" keep returning into his life -- little people included. But what makes Wilf's encounters more significant is that this particular visit is somehow suspected of being connected (directly or indirectly) to the prophecy behind the Doctor's hearing the knocking 4 times.. thus, being connected with or to the Doctor's own "death" timeline.

Wilf showed up immediately after the knocking of the 4 times, which the knocking was obviously done by the Master, and Wilf essentially stopped the Doctor in the middle of chasing the Master down rather than get the entire "death" issue done and over with.

So, during the interlude at the cafe, the Doctor was trying to figure out where in the giant puzzle of the Doctor's own time/life that Wilf fit. The Doctor realized being linked back up with Wilf wasn't a coincidence, but meant to be.. The question was *why?* .. and why send Wilf into the Doctor's path of life at *that* particular historical moment (pertaining to the Doctor's forewarned "death"). It was more an inquisitive and searching sort of tone that I heard.. and that's loosely based on knowing how the Doctor has operated in all of his previous selves in past DW eps/stories (going back to all earlier DW personas #'s 1-9).

Maybe it takes digesting the entire Doctor Who series as a whole --and dissecting each episode via the DW magazine and other DW outlet sources have done over the decades, to understand what motivates him and at which occasions make some events more significant than others. That's the basic impression I got from his conversation with Wilf. To me, that little conversation seemed more of a curiosity issue than any personality conflict.

And the not-knowing is what was driving the Doctor's brain into overdrive-- trying to solve life's puzzle of what was yet to come. ...and since the Doctor is semi-omni-knowing of all possible future outcomes, it was the details that made up the end results which he seemed to be out of sync with, and I think that frustrated him -- more because this was a *personal* issue of (knowing) his own future (was definitely) being (directly put) in jeopardy. (Past Doctor versions have had basically the same issues depending on the situations involved.)

SGalisa
December 31st, 2009, 04:35 PM
You mean that he had some good companions before Rose? Sure he did. Romana and Sarah Jane are the best of those, IMHO, but Donna was the one who was most like a friend to him. The poor guy just needed a friend and she was his best friend.

Actually, I forgot a few (lots more really). Each seemed to be unique and given specific character qualifications to each story and Doctor (actor # version) they appeared with. Some companions being more resourceful in intellectual skills / cunning than others.. ;)

Rose was different in that her connection ended up being a genuine love story of sorts, which was way, waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy different from previous Doctor and companions. Donna had her moments and it would have been interesting to see if the series (itself in writing and captivating various audiences) could actually hold onto her longer than the usual few seasons a DW companion stays for. :)

Even the Doctors (actors portraying each Doctor) move on. Which has basically become a trademark staple of the entire DW series. That's what makes it unique and semi-unpredictable in the never knowing when (or how) the next actor will take over the role, etc. :eek:

nx01a
December 31st, 2009, 05:11 PM
I didn't get *that* negative *snobby* type of impression.Easy. I was joking. ;) Well, mostly joking. After how he referred to 'little people' in 'Waters of Mars'... Clearly, he was delusional. Clearly.

SGalisa
December 31st, 2009, 07:00 PM
Sadly, the whole "Who are you, Wilfred?" seemed far too much like what happened with Donna at the end of s4. The Doctor is clearly a snob; no 'little people' can have anything to do with him more than once, only big time-manipulatingly important beings dare apply to see him twice or more. Hmph.:D


I didn't get *that* negative *snobby* type of impression.
Instead, over the course of years and visitations by both companions and lifeforms everywhere, the Doctor knows that certain people and "beings" keep returning into his life -- little people included. But what makes Wilf's encounters more significant is that this particular visit is somehow suspected of being connected (directly or indirectly) to the prophecy behind the Doctor's hearing the knocking 4 times.. thus, being connected with or to the Doctor's own "death" timeline...


Easy. I was joking. ;) Well, mostly joking. After how he referred to 'little people' in 'Waters of Mars'... Clearly, he was delusional. Clearly.

I hear yah.. ;) and I saw the joke in there somewhere, too, before replying..
What I meant by him being snobby -- was in the definitive sense, where the Doctor might be seen for eons of time into the future as strutting around with his nose up in the air and being selective over whom he likes and dislikes, etc.

Yes, in 'Waters of Mars' he used the term "little people" to which Adelaide took as an insult. I wouldn't say the Doctor was delusional; I think he thought he could actually control the outcome enough to *play God* so to speak.. and in a very real sense, that's basically what any Entity controlling the laws of time do -- they seem to *play God* --and sometimes by detaching their personal connections to those who don't know all that is involved, while they are trying to be totally focused on guiding or prompting others along to prevent disasters or fulfill certain goals and destinies.

But the Doctor was also quick to clarify what he meant by little people -- are those persons/Beings who make little impact within the timelines vs. others who cause mega-quakes in the long-term, historical sense. I had tried to think of him as delusional, as Adelaide did, but knowing the Doctor's past, I think for a moment he actually thought he was the only *almighty* powerful force in the entire universe that could change that one event for the better... which (to me) explained his moment of "I've got the Power!" energizer beat... basically, I tried to see it also from his side, and that's why when he realized he may have gone a bit too far, that he wasn't being delusional, but more hopeful. I think his choice of wording made him seem more uppity than he really was, thus the potential snobby attitude showed up for a slight moment.. his hopeful nature -- part of his personality took over his ego and he ran with it, until he was shaken back into if/how the rest of the universe might react differently from him.

Which it did ---- Had the 'Waters of Mars' ending gone the way the Doctor initially expected it to, and not with Adelaide shooting herself, I think the Doctor might have felt a bit above creation -- at that moment in time -- and gotten a higher ego than he already had.. which for the most part, he's usually very humble in nature ... and it's that humbleness that keeps him balanced in / with his ability / tampering to control other forces within the universe. His motives are usually for the good, but it's the definition of good that could appear as bad to other people -- including whomever he encounters, such as Adelaide.

Greed for more power might be the next step, as it's been with the Master, but the Doctor realized what might be happening within his own ego, and stopped himself when he saw the Ood. :eek:
:)

Hope that helps.

Stewart5
January 1st, 2010, 10:53 AM
Just watched part two. Noooooo! He's gone! Thd only thing am looking forward to is ms. Gillan....

KEK
January 1st, 2010, 11:01 AM
So theTime Lords were trying to ascend? Lawl.

Bagpuss
January 1st, 2010, 11:03 AM
Take it to the Official thread Guys here (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=72456).:)

Aerilon
January 1st, 2010, 11:08 AM
Just watched part two. Noooooo! He's gone! Thd only thing am looking forward to is ms. Gillan....I don't like him.

Yet.


So the Time Lords were trying to ascend? Lawl.hah, I smirked at that too.

Stewart5
January 1st, 2010, 11:52 AM
Bril, chased from another thread.
Well, on topic, End of Time one sucked. There was nothing in there I liked. Thank god part two was great, but thats for another thread, apparantly

PMN1
January 1st, 2010, 01:37 PM
The Master's Facebook is doing the rounds....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/paul1/themastersfacebook.jpg

Aerilon
January 2nd, 2010, 07:17 AM
haha, thats great ^^

PMN1
January 2nd, 2010, 04:04 PM
The chameleon circuit on his Tardis is functioning too well and makes even him think its just an ordinary allotment shed even when he is inside it and the gun is actually a laser screwdriver.....

Still think my idea is better than the actual script......:(

P-90_177
January 10th, 2010, 06:24 AM
Having rewatched part 1 and part 2 together I can safelysay that part 1 is actually......very very good. Perhaps the maser taking over the planet with himsef is still a tad OTT but then again he is pretty damn insane and he took an opportunity when he saw it. Plus the device itself isn't unlike other devices seen in doctor who in the past. The Nanogenes in The Empty Child for example. I still feel the effect of everyone changing was a bit rubbish but then again between the cgi shots of Gallifrey, the Doctors regeneration and the vinvocci spaceship scenes I reckon the CG team was already pretty busy so they needed a more low tech approach.....hence shaking heads.

The scene between Wilf and Doctor in the cafe is still awesome, as is the confrontation between the Doctor and the Master in the warehouse. And now even the Narration by Rassilon seems more epic now I know where it is going. Everything just kinda slots into place and makes more sense.

Flyboy
January 10th, 2010, 06:32 AM
Having rewatched part 1 and part 2 together I can safelysay that part 1 is actually......very very good. Perhaps the maser taking over the planet with himsef is still a tad OTT but then again he is pretty damn insane and he took an opportunity when he saw it. Plus the device itself isn't unlike other devices seen in doctor who in the past. The Nanogenes in The Empty Child for example. I still feel the effect of everyone changing was a bit rubbish but then again between the cgi shots of Gallifrey, the Doctors regeneration and the vinvocci spaceship scenes I reckon the CG team was already pretty busy so they needed a more low tech approach.....hence shaking heads.

The scene between Wilf and Doctor in the cafe is still awesome, as is the confrontation between the Doctor and the Master in the warehouse. And now even the Narration by Rassilon seems more epic now I know where it is going. Everything just kinda slots into place and makes more sense.
Yeah, episode one I really like.

It's episode two that lets me down.

Stewart5
January 12th, 2010, 07:16 AM
Timothy Dalton ftw!!

Flyboy
January 12th, 2010, 07:18 AM
Timothy Dalton ftw!!
Indeed.

Stewart5
January 12th, 2010, 07:29 AM
I wasn't too sure about the resolution of the Timelords. They turn up, wanna destory time and then the Doctor decides who/what to shoot.. I would have just shot the lot, actually.

Flyboy
January 12th, 2010, 07:54 AM
I wasn't too sure about the resolution of the Timelords. They turn up, wanna destory time and then the Doctor decides who/what to shoot.. I would have just shot the lot, actually.
Typical bloody Marine candidate. :P


Btw - spoiler that, as it's a part 2 comment.

Stewart5
January 12th, 2010, 08:11 AM
Well, he had a Webley. he should have used it more productively. :P:P
Still wanted the Timelords to do more than turn up with Gallifray and be the villians.....

P-90_177
January 12th, 2010, 12:17 PM
I wasn't too sure about the resolution of the Timelords. They turn up, wanna destory time and then the Doctor decides who/what to shoot.. I would have just shot the lot, actually.

Lol. That's be a tad bit out of character for The Doctor.

Sealurk
January 12th, 2010, 02:58 PM
Lol. That's be a tad bit out of character for The Doctor.

And yet entirely in character for Garrowan5th!

Stewart5
January 13th, 2010, 04:28 AM
This is true, it would be out of character, but he was going to die anyway, so why not a change of pace?

JennyJumper
January 13th, 2010, 04:35 AM
For once you have a point! :P part 2 was the better ep! Going to miss David! And the new Doctor wears a bow tie! He's supposed to be trendy! Who wears a bow tie casually?!

Flyboy
January 13th, 2010, 09:09 AM
For once you have a point! :P part 2 was the better ep! Going to miss David! And the new Doctor wears a bow tie! He's supposed to be trendy! Who wears a bow tie casually?!
Since when has the Doctor ever been 'trendy' other than the tenth?

P-90_177
January 13th, 2010, 10:59 AM
This is true, it would be out of character, but he was going to die anyway, so why not a change of pace?

lol. he still had his beliefs and principals. :P

Stewart5
January 14th, 2010, 04:54 AM
I know, and i know i am irrationally blathering, but hey.
Part one was going fine until the master started going about zapping with his force lightning of doom. Then it made me phase out.....

Dimbo_Sama
January 20th, 2010, 01:46 PM
Since when has the Doctor ever been 'trendy' other than the tenth?

You're telling me you don't wear a decorative vegetable on your lapel and carry a recorder with you everywhere?

What have I been doing with my life?!?!?!

gateship15
February 14th, 2010, 12:51 AM
this was a very interesting episode can't wait for part two. love the master his and the doctors interactions have always been great i kind of feel sorry for him because when i think of it he use to be friends with the doctor something had to turn him insane.

Pharaoh Atem
February 14th, 2010, 02:26 AM
i love when the master is hitting the metal barrel 4 times repeatly

Cold Fuzz
February 14th, 2010, 02:29 AM
The Master = My favorite villain. :D

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2795/haroldsaxon.jpg

Pharaoh Atem
February 14th, 2010, 02:36 AM
The Master = My favorite villain. :D

[G]http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2795/haroldsaxon.jpg[/IMG]
i prefer him blond

Cold Fuzz
February 14th, 2010, 02:50 AM
http://www.caddicks.com/blog/wp-content/three_time_lords.jpg.

Pharaoh Atem
February 14th, 2010, 03:02 AM
[IMG]http://www.caddicks.com/blog/wp-content/three_time_lords.jpg[/MG].

cool

gateship15
February 14th, 2010, 04:03 PM
i have to agree cool

Cold Fuzz
February 14th, 2010, 08:25 PM
Interestingly enough, BBC America is airing The End of Time (both parts) right now. ;)

gateship15
February 14th, 2010, 09:13 PM
australia just aired the first part

maneth
May 14th, 2013, 08:10 AM
Loved this one, and great to see Timothy Dalton make an appearance. Man, but Tennant was brilliant in some scenes in this one, IMO especially in the café with Wilfred.