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malfunction
November 16th, 2009, 08:03 AM
Is anyone else bothered that every character in Stargate has died? SG-1 have died twice in 'Moebius' and Continuum, the Atlantis Expedition were all killed in 'Before I sleep' and now the Destiny crew have all perished twice as well. I can't be the only person that doesn't like this, none of the characters in Stargate are the original characters from the first time we saw them.

MattSilver 3k
November 16th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Jonas hasn't died...

Or does he not count?

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 08:10 AM
Is anyone else bothered that every character in Stargate has died? SG-1 have died twice in 'Moebius' and Continuum, the Atlantis Expedition were all killed in 'Before I sleep' and now the Destiny crew have all perished twice as well. I can't be the only person that doesn't like this, none of the characters in Stargate are the original characters from the first time we saw them.

No. The SG-1 we first see in Mobius is the previous Timeline's SG-1, which ultimately allows our SG-1 to gain a free ZPM without timetravel.

Same with Before I Sleep. Our Atlantis crew is the second one. Not the first.

Same with Continuum.

EvilSpaceAlien
November 16th, 2009, 08:11 AM
Jonas hasn't died...

Or does he not count?

According to the producers there was never character named Jonas Quinn. There was also never a sixth season between seasons 5 and 7, and no episode called 'Fallout' in S7.

That's the only thing that can explain why he hasn't been seen in such a long time. :zelenka26:

malfunction
November 16th, 2009, 08:21 AM
No. The SG-1 we first see in Mobius is the previous Timeline's SG-1, which ultimately allows our SG-1 to gain a free ZPM without timetravel.

Same with Before I Sleep. Our Atlantis crew is the second one. Not the first.

Same with Continuum.

In our perspective they are the original characters and these characters are only still alive due to the timeline being shifted. If 'Moebius' didn't happen Atlantis would have been destroyed and the expedition would be hiding in Pegasus.

My main problem is that TPTB use time travel as an excuse to kill characters for affect only for them to be alive again by the time that the episode is over.

MattSilver 3k
November 16th, 2009, 08:27 AM
According to the producers there was never character named Jonas Quinn. There was also never a sixth season between seasons 5 and 7, and no episode called 'Fallout' in S7.

That's the only thing that can explain why he hasn't been seen in such a long time. :zelenka26:

*snort* Ain't that the truth.

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 08:29 AM
In our perspective they are the original characters and these characters are only still alive due to the timeline being shifted. If 'Moebius' didn't happen Atlantis would have been destroyed and the expedition would be hiding in Pegasus.

It depends on your perspective.

You could see it as:


Mobius SG-1 go back in time and beffudle things
Nerdy SG-1 go back and repair things
Season 1-8 of our SG-1.
Our SG-1 find the ZPM in Mobius
Life goes on for our SG-1



Before I Sleep Expedition arrive on Atlantis and die
Weir goes back in time
Janus adds release mechanisms
Our Expedition arives on Atlantis in Rising
Season 1-5 of our Atlantis continue



Continuum SG-1 are effected by Baal's timeshifting
Continuum SG-1 go back in time and fix things
They die
Our SG-1 are at Baal's execution, it goes without a hitch
Life goes on for our SG-1



My main problem is that TPTB use time travel as an excuse to kill characters for affect only for them to be alive again by the time that the episode is over.

They really can't die any other way, unless they do it for real. Time travel just allows TPTB to disregard any of the usual consequences, giving them a break.

malfunction
November 16th, 2009, 08:35 AM
It depends on your perspective.

You could see it as:


Mobius SG-1 go back in time and beffudle things
Nerdy SG-1 go back and repair things
Season 1-8 of our SG-1.
Our SG-1 find the ZPM in Mobius
Life goes on for our SG-1



Before I Sleep Expedition arrive on Atlantis and die
Weir goes back in time
Janus adds release mechanisms
Our Expedition arives on Atlantis in Rising
Season 1-5 of our Atlantis continue



Continuum SG-1 are effected by Baal's timeshifting
Continuum SG-1 go back in time and fix things
They die
Our SG-1 are at Baal's execution, it goes without a hitch
Life goes on for our SG-1




They really can't die any other way, unless they do it for real. Time travel just allows TPTB to disregard any of the usual consequences, giving them a break.

I didn't even care about the time travel deaths up until 'Continuum.' As this was a slightly altered version of 'Moebius' and to see them so quickly using this plot again in SGU is not that encouraging. However saying that I really enjoyed the episode, I'm just hoping that SGU doesn't wheel out every any other stargate episode ideas.

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 08:37 AM
I didn't even care about the time travel deaths up until 'Continuum.' As this was a slightly altered version of 'Moebius' and to see them so quickly using this plot again in SGU is not that encouraging. However saying that I really enjoyed the episode, I'm just hoping that SGU doesn't wheel out every any other stargate episode ideas.

There are no original ideas anymore :P

Especially after 100 episodes of SG-1 and 50 of Atlantis. TPTB are bound to have to retread a few steps along the way.

malfunction
November 16th, 2009, 08:42 AM
There are no original ideas anymore

Especially after 100 episodes of SG-1 and 50 of Atlantis. TPTB are bound to have to retread a few steps along the way.

I understand that, but both SG-1 and Atlantis have already used altered timeline stories twice to see it a fifth time in the franchise is a bit much. 'Before I sleep' stands out because of the alternate Weir making it back to the present, it really gives it an edge because she is the only time traveller and no one else had to travel back in time to make things better.

Pianomancuber
November 16th, 2009, 09:01 AM
Before I Sleep is one of my favorite SG episodes of all time, as is Moebius. I think that the fact that we aren't even watching the "original" characters adds depth to the story and helps show how much the odds are against us. We aren't good enough to survive. It's only because of all the advanced alien technology that we get the chances we do to survive. This is the premise of the entire series, after all look at the title: STARGATE.

At first I was disappointed with this episode because I thought it was going to be a rehash, but then the team we thought was "our" team died as well. Also the fact that the wormhole was affected in a different way, for me at least, makes this different enough for me to really like it.

Replicator Todd
November 16th, 2009, 10:46 AM
Its the reason why Alternate Timelines are such cool storylines, you see an alternate way of things instead of the save the day scenario all the time. It doesn't bother me at all!

Lord Hurin
November 16th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Its the reason why Alternate Timelines are such cool storylines, you see an alternate way of things instead of the save the day scenario all the time. It doesn't bother me at all!

Amen to that! Personally, I'd be more pissed off if it had ended with the second loop and not been "reset" at all!

ciannwn
November 16th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Before I Sleep Expedition arrive on Atlantis and die
Weir goes back in time
Janus adds release mechanisms
Our Expedition arives on Atlantis in Rising
Season 1-5 of our Atlantis continue


We first see the Atlantis expedition on Earth before they go through the stargate to Atlantis. Weir's activities in Before I Sleep only affected what happened after the expedition arrived in Atlantis.

The expedition we saw on Earth was the original one - every member of it was killed except for Weir. She changed things so the expedition members don't drown when they first get to the city. Original Weir is then found as a very old woman who meets the Weir from the changed timeline.

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 11:35 AM
We first see the Atlantis expedition on Earth before they go through the stargate to Atlantis. Weir's activities in Before I Sleep only affected what happened after the expedition arrived in Atlantis.

The expedition we saw on Earth was the original one - every member of it was killed except for Weir. She changed things so the expedition members don't drown when they first get to the city. Original Weir is then found as a very old woman who meets the Weir from the changed timeline.

Sure then, but then our Weir is not the original one then, so it's a moot point :P

ciannwn
November 16th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Sure then, but then our Weir is not the original one then, so it's a moot point :P

The Weir we saw on Earth before the expedition left for Atlantis is the one who died as a very old woman in Before I Sleep.

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 12:44 PM
The Weir we saw on Earth before the expedition left for Atlantis is the one who died as a very old woman in Before I Sleep.

No, from my persective the Weir we saw on Earth was the second Weir.

Original Timeline
Original Ancients leave
Original Weir & Expedition arrive on Atlantis
They all drown
Original Weir goes back in time
Janus puts releasing clamps on Atlantis
Original Weir freezes herself
Thousand of years later, Our Weir is born
Our Weir becomes head of SG-1
Our Weir & Expedition arrive on Atlantis
Atlantis rises.
Our Weir meets Original Weir
Original Weir dies


So, from that perspective. We've seen the same Weir throughout SG-1 & Atlantis.

malfunction
November 16th, 2009, 12:48 PM
The Weir we saw on Earth before the expedition left for Atlantis is the one who died as a very old woman in Before I Sleep.

The old Weir in 'Before I Sleep' was the first Elizabeth Weir to exist, so she is the original. The current Elizabeth Weir only exists because of her actions in the episode.

Choo1701
November 16th, 2009, 12:54 PM
The old Weir in 'Before I Sleep' was the first Elizabeth Weir to exist, so she is the original. The current Elizabeth Weir only exists because of her actions in the episode.

and...and....and...and ooooooo my eyes have gone all cross eyed now

Isn't the important thing that the gang(s) SURVIVED to do whatever they do for another day?

(well except for the guys in the timeline BEFORE who died first, before the main guys and ... and.... and my brain hurts......:( :P )

ciannwn
November 16th, 2009, 12:57 PM
No, from my persective the Weir we saw on Earth was the second Weir.

Original Timeline
Original Ancients leave
Original Weir & Expedition arrive on Atlantis
They all drown
Original Weir goes back in time
Janus puts releasing clamps on Atlantis
Original Weir freezes herself
Thousand of years later, Our Weir is born
Our Weir becomes head of SG-1
Our Weir & Expedition arrive on Atlantis
Atlantis rises.
Our Weir meets Original Weir
Original Weir dies


OK - I'll go along with that for Weir. What about the rest of the expedition members, though, before they went through the stargate to Atlantis? When did they stop being the originals and become altered time line versions?

Some members of the expedition were very doomed in both time lines. This includes altered time line Weir because she was killed by the Asurans and we just saw Replicator copies after that.

Sam StarEagle
November 16th, 2009, 01:34 PM
I don't find that disconcerting in the least... Just today in universe #38645 I was run over by a bus, universe #8796 me I was eaten by one of the giant rabbit overlords, and universe #932179 me had a rather amusing accident involving a lawn mower, a cargo plane and a herring. It wasn't pretty. :p

malfunction
November 16th, 2009, 01:56 PM
I don't find that disconcerting in the least... Just today in universe #38645 I was run over by a bus, universe #8796 me I was eaten by one of the giant rabbit overlords, and universe #932179 me had a rather amusing accident involving a lawn mower, a cargo plane and a herring. It wasn't pretty. :p

You seem to have missed the point.

We aren't talking about alternate universes, we are talking about altered timelines. When we saw Rod in 'Miller's Crossing' is in no way Rodney McKay, but both the Rodney's in 'Before I Sleep' are the same person, up until they left the SGC for Atlantis.

Merlin's_Legacy
November 16th, 2009, 02:55 PM
We aren't talking about alternate universes, we are talking about altered timelines. When we saw Rod in 'Miller's Crossing' is in no way Rodney McKay, but both the Rodney's in 'Before I Sleep' are the same person, up until they left the SGC for Atlantis.

Yes.... But that can easily be explained by the distances between the timelines.... This was sort of explained in the eps with the Quantum Mirror. And don't forget Ripple Effect. Timelines that are similar are very close to one another in the multiverse. The further away timelines get the more different they become. Due to the temporal mechanics used in the Stargate Multiverse there can be loops and interactions between the "alternate universes" or "Alternate timelines" that affect each other. The end result is that "Time Travel" is not exactly that... It's just a detour onto an alternate timeline. The side effect is that there are a few "bubble" timelines that only exist for a short time and are then cancelled out while the events that created them are still influx. (I'm kinda feeling like Heisenberg and Schrodinger and observation of the viewer might play a part there kinda like the act of an organic pilot choosing a slipstream path in Andromeda is what makes that path right or wrong.)

Anyway, my point about whether it's an Alternate timeline or an alternate universe is just a matter of perspective.

Ann_Ominous
November 16th, 2009, 03:42 PM
Nope, doesn't bother me. It's all fiction, so nobody has really died. As long as somebody is there to watch the shows or to read the books/scripts, they will live forever.

Replicator Todd
November 16th, 2009, 04:04 PM
You seem to have missed the point.

We aren't talking about alternate universes, we are talking about altered timelines. When we saw Rod in 'Miller's Crossing' is in no way Rodney McKay, but both the Rodney's in 'Before I Sleep' are the same person, up until they left the SGC for Atlantis.
In a way alternate timelines are alternate universes....something happened in that universe to make the timeline different than our own thus creating a different set of events.

Jack_Bauer
November 16th, 2009, 04:50 PM
In a way alternate timelines are alternate universes....something happened in that universe to make the timeline different than our own thus creating a different set of events.

But in reality they are completely different.

shade45
November 17th, 2009, 12:13 AM
Well for the Time episode, you could argue that the character in AT3, their lives are identical to those in AT2 up until the point where they got the Kino from the future and ended up not dying. We might as well have been following that timeline all along. Or even better, we HAVE been following that timeline but for the sake of the episode the focus shifted to AT2 (well actually AT1 first, then AT2).

Captain Obvious
November 17th, 2009, 03:50 AM
Well for the Time episode, you could argue that the character in AT3, their lives are identical to those in AT2 up until the point where they got the Kino from the future and ended up not dying. We might as well have been following that timeline all along. Or even better, we HAVE been following that timeline but for the sake of the episode the focus shifted to AT2 (well actually AT1 first, then AT2).

nice save, green for the probie

Pharaoh Atem
November 17th, 2009, 04:48 AM
According to the producers there was never character named Jonas Quinn. There was also never a sixth season between seasons 5 and 7, and no episode called 'Fallout' in S7.

That's the only thing that can explain why he hasn't been seen in such a long time. :zelenka26:

:confused:

The Prophet
November 17th, 2009, 05:23 AM
OK - I'll go along with that for Weir. What about the rest of the expedition members, though, before they went through the stargate to Atlantis? When did they stop being the originals and become altered time line versions?

Nah, the Expedition members we've watched have taken place in the altered timeline. All of SG-1, Atlantis & Universe takes place in this altered Universe. We've not seen the original Universe, apart from Old-Weir's flashbacks to it.

[/quote]Some members of the expedition were very doomed in both time lines. This includes altered time line Weir because she was killed by the Asurans and we just saw Replicator copies after that.[/QUOTE]

Some people are just unlucky :P It may have been Weir's conciousness uploaded into a new body, or a complete copy. Who knows.

Encoder
November 17th, 2009, 06:31 AM
Jonas hasn't died...

Or does he not count?

Jonas counts!

:sheppard:

malfunction
November 17th, 2009, 08:04 AM
In a way alternate timelines are alternate universes....something happened in that universe to make the timeline different than our own thus creating a different set of events.

The difference is you cannot reach an altered timeline once it has been altered, as the original no longer exists. It has been wiped a way by all the events that happened as result of the changes, the alternate universe will always be there.

The Prophet
November 17th, 2009, 08:49 AM
The difference is you cannot reach an altered timeline once it has been altered, as the original no longer exists. It has been wiped a way by all the events that happened as result of the changes, the alternate universe will always be there.

Actually no, it probably is still there, they've just entered a new one by changing actions in the past. There's still a Universe out there without the change in timeline.

You could probably use the Quantum Mirror to Gate to the Universe/Timeline where the Gate was lost at see in Continuum, or Atlantis never rised in Before I sleep.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 19th, 2009, 05:43 AM
I don't understand why it would bother anyone at all.

One of the problems with alternate timelines though, is that TPTB seem to have stopped trying to ensure if they make sense. In Mobius and Continuum the alternate timelines were different for no reason other than to be different. The cause and effect is not explained. So we're almost forced to conclude if you go back in time and change nothing, there is still no guarantee that everything will play out the same way it once did. (Unless it is convenient for it to do so). There is no way that moving the Stargate should have caused all the little differences seen in Mobius and Continuum.

malfunction
November 19th, 2009, 06:18 AM
We do know that the series 9 SG-1 is not that same as the series 1-8 SG-1 for one reason, it is Jack's pond. Up until 'Moebius' we saw that it had no fish at all, at the end of 'Moebius' it had fish in it. In 'Threads' where it is supposed to be the exactly same scene, the pond had no fish.

So the SG-1 we knew in series 1-8 is actually dead, they died in ancient Egypt.

jelgate
November 19th, 2009, 06:22 AM
We do know that the series 9 SG-1 is not that same as the series 1-8 SG-1 for one reason, it is Jack's pond. Up until 'Moebius' we saw that it had no fish at all, at the end of 'Moebius' it had fish in it. In 'Threads' where it is supposed to be the exactly same scene, the pond had no fish.

So the SG-1 we knew in series 1-8 is actually dead, they died in ancient Egypt.

Just like the SG1 we knew from season 1-4 died in 2010. But more importantly how does this relate to Time?

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2009, 09:36 AM
Not everyone on SG-1 has died. Everyone Atlantis died in the originalatlantis!Timeline, however, yes. And everyone on the Destiny died... twice.

However, Jonas is not dead confirmed to be dead (though it was hinted to be so) and while Cheyenne Mountain got blown up in "There But For The Grace of God", not all SG-1 characters were present to die in the explosion. However, all main characters on all three shows have died in one timeline or alternate universe or another, except Jonas (as far as we know).

malfunction
November 19th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Just like the SG1 we knew from season 1-4 died in 2010. But more importantly how does this relate to Time?

That TPTB consider the original characters who die time travel episodes to be the 'real' characters. So to TPTB the characters after 'Time' are not the same characters that ended 'Earth.'

Eternal Density
November 19th, 2009, 04:47 PM
That TPTB consider the original characters who die time travel episodes to be the 'real' characters. So to TPTB the characters after 'Time' are not the same characters that ended 'Earth.'I guess we'll find out if fish show up in Destiny's water tanks.

Phenom
November 20th, 2009, 01:38 AM
Not bothered in the slightest. I don't let the death of fictional characters bother me.

malfunction
November 20th, 2009, 02:02 AM
Not bothered in the slightest. I don't let the death of fictional characters bother me.

Obviously anyone who is bothered in a serious way about a fictional characters death is being stupid, I mean bother you in respect to the series. In my opinion episodes like these shows a certain amount of disrespect of the characters, TPTB only use these episodes to do things they can't usually do and how frequent they are in Stargate is getting a bit alarming. If past experience is anything to go by, this won't be the last time we see people die in SGU only to be alive by the end of the episode.

Phenom
November 20th, 2009, 02:31 AM
I think its more of a shock tactic of sorts used by the writers, to make us think for the short time of the ep that one of the main characters has kicked the bucket. Then at some stage later they come back. At the moment, with things like IMDB and the like, we all pretty much know how many episodes the characters appear in, so we know that they will come back to life in some way.

I don't see how it could be disrespectful though, its just a twist in the storytelling that can be fun if it isn't over used.

malfunction
November 20th, 2009, 03:04 AM
I think its more of a shock tactic of sorts used by the writers, to make us think for the short time of the ep that one of the main characters has kicked the bucket. Then at some stage later they come back. At the moment, with things like IMDB and the like, we all pretty much know how many episodes the characters appear in, so we know that they will come back to life in some way.

I don't see how it could be disrespectful though, its just a twist in the storytelling that can be fun if it isn't over used.

Disrespectful could be the wrong word, but it just seems that in science fiction a life is worth a lot less than any other genre. I still don't like how in Atlantis Carson was brought back as a clone and there was no explanation to how he had all the memories of Carson. There are other examples throughout science fiction of lifes not being worth as much too, such as Harry Kim in Voyager.

thekillman
November 22nd, 2009, 08:04 AM
people mostly die in alternate timelines, because that timeline goes wrong and is the reason it's being changed anyway.

JadedWraith
November 22nd, 2009, 12:34 PM
I only had the opportunity to watch "time" after I watched "life", and for once, I have to say I (finallly!!!) truly loved the episode. I liked the way the story arch develloped, I thought it had the right balance between character interaction and action scenes, and the fact the the bug bite conveniently acted as cure for a bacteria from another distant planet didn't bother me as much. They need a little lucky break, don't they? The shaky camera worked fine this time. This episode really kept me at the edge of my seat. If the story isn't completely original, it was told in a interesting way. It had some problem solving, self sacrifice and maybe it was the most sci-fi eppie ( ?) so far.

In a more nasty tonethe Chloe haters had the satisfaction to watch her die twice;). But I am not one of those.:)

9/10

malfunction
November 23rd, 2009, 03:38 AM
The shaky camera worked fine this time. This episode really kept me at the edge of my seat. If the story isn't completely original, it was told in a interesting way. It had some problem solving, self sacrifice and maybe it was the most sci-fi eppie ( ?) so far.

'Time' was a really good episode, I think everyone can agree on that. I thought how the kino was used as a camera at the start, it felt like a lot more real than when they use regular cameras in the rest of SGU.

natyanayaki
November 29th, 2009, 06:57 PM
My main problem is that TPTB use time travel as an excuse to kill characters for affect only for them to be alive again by the time that the episode is over.

But isn't that a trope of Scifi? To use time-travel for shock value? I guess I watch SciFi shows because of these methods...



In a more nasty tonethe Chloe haters had the satisfaction to watch her die twice;). But I am not one of those.:)


But then we have to live through the disappointment that she'd be saved :(


'Time' was a really good episode, I think everyone can agree on that. I thought how the kino was used as a camera at the start, it felt like a lot more real than when they use regular cameras in the rest of SGU.

I really liked that too, plus it gave the feeling that something was off, something's different. It hinted to the audience that what your seeing isn't happening as you watch it, at least that's how I felt.

AtlantisRules!!!
November 29th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Is anyone else bothered that every character in Stargate has died? SG-1 have died twice in 'Moebius' and Continuum, the Atlantis Expedition were all killed in 'Before I sleep' and now the Destiny crew have all perished twice as well. I can't be the only person that doesn't like this, none of the characters in Stargate are the original characters from the first time we saw them.

Actually, I like it :D

And Cam hasn't died yet.

malfunction
November 30th, 2009, 04:13 AM
Actually, I like it :D

And Cam hasn't died yet.

Mitchell died sometime on Earth in the past, he would have too old at the time he went back to the 1920's to live up until the present.

I don't think a single major character hasn't died in some altered timeline. Jonas would have been killed in 'Prophecy' if the Jaffa ambush had made it through the stargate, Landry died in different time circumstances to the rest of the characters but we still saw him die.

ArchaeoNerd
March 12th, 2010, 01:12 PM
No one ever dies in science fiction. :)

There are a number of ways to resurrect a character once you've killed him off.
(a) Alternate timeline, as with Kawalsky and Janet Fraiser
(b) Cloning, as with Carson Beckett
(c) It turns out the character is a robotic duplicate (Teal'c in 'Tin Man')

There is also the "reanimation" of Spock; and the Harry Kim who died in "Deadlock" was a duplicate created by the spatial anomaly (or the one who survived was... we aren't ever really sure which set of duplicates was "our" crew).

I admit that when I saw the creatures killing everyone off, my first thought was "Oh, it's OK... this will turn out not to be real". Somebody will eventually "make it didn't happen", as Larry Niven would say. But then the "real" crew was killed as well, which added an extra twist to it.

The thing is, even though I know the entire cast is not really going to be killed off in the eighth episode of the show, I still love the dramatic effect, and I love to have my mind boggled by the temporal plot twists!!

ArcheoNerd

rushy
July 3rd, 2010, 02:39 AM
Also you can take Time as:
First Time team goes to the planet.
They get killed.
Scott sends a Kino back in time.
Second Time team goes to the planet.
They find Scott's Kino and decide to search it.
They discover the meaning of the illness.
Scott, Young, Spencer and Greer go to the planet in night to get a bug.
They get killed.
Scott sends a Kino back in time.
Our team goes to the planet.
They find 2 Kinos and search them through.
Scott, Young, Spencer and Greer go to the planet in day to get a bug.
They succeed.