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Andron
November 15th, 2009, 08:07 AM
Carl Binder just posted a link (over twitter) to a video in which Eli and Scott explain what happened after the end of Time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vte7LMnYV10

Liked the little explaination of Riley about time travel :D

DigiFluid
November 15th, 2009, 08:14 AM
Yes that's Kino-sode 18, and we carry on discussion of these in this thread (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=68303) :)

It was with the other Kino-sodes here (http://stargate.mgm.com/browse/videos/series/3/limit/8/offset/0/index.html), but I gather it was taken down because it was posted early and spoiled the end of "Time".

TheRandomOne
November 15th, 2009, 08:16 AM
I liked Scott in this Kino. If we got more of this & less useless drama we would have a better show & more of the characters working together like this

Stormtrooper
November 15th, 2009, 08:23 AM
Riley = true geek of SGU :D

TENTHIUS
November 15th, 2009, 08:26 AM
Carl Binder just posted a link (over twitter) to a video in which Eli and Scott explain what happened after the end of Time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vte7LMnYV10

Liked the little explaination of Riley about time travel :D

OMG...that´s my upload...I´m so happy. :) It´s unbelieveable how small is the world.

nemesis24
November 15th, 2009, 02:56 PM
Weird thing is if the second kino from the future had been sent back then surely the 3rd group of destiny crew would have only found one kino because the other timeline would effectivily been erased - i mean they wouldnt have sent their kino back because those events never unfolded that way

PG15
November 15th, 2009, 03:00 PM
The 2nd timeline would've been erased as well though, once that 2nd Kino passed through the gate. That's the conceit here - no timelines are erased per se (and thus nothing from the timelines are erased, like dead Rush and the 2 Kinos); they're just new ones every single time.

nemesis24
November 15th, 2009, 03:09 PM
The 2nd timeline would've been erased as well though, once that 2nd Kino passed through the gate. That's the conceit here - no timelines are erased per se (and thus nothing from the timelines are erased, like dead Rush and the 2 Kinos); they're just new ones every single time.

My point is we should have just found one kino, i mean the first kino (and rush) was sent back at a certain point in time (lets call it point A) which caused the 2nd version of the destiny crew to find it which caused them to find out theres something wrong and how the planet is dangerous so they didnt send people. Now the second versions of the destiny crew go back to the planet to find that creature and most die which causes Scott to send another kino back at the time point A - so how can the first Scott (from the first reality where he was bitten and the sole surviver) send a kino back or how can rush (who wasnt even on the second mission) go back to be found by the third crew.

A bit confusing but i hope i worded it well

raptor112
November 15th, 2009, 03:19 PM
My point is we should have just found one kino, i mean the first kino (and rush) was sent back at a certain point in time (lets call it point A) which caused the 2nd version of the destiny crew to find it which caused them to find out theres something wrong and how the planet is dangerous so they didnt send people. Now the second versions of the destiny crew go back to the planet to find that creature and most die which causes Scott to send another kino back at the time point A - so how can the first Scott (from the first reality where he was bitten and the sole surviver) send a kino back or how can rush (who wasnt even on the second mission) go back to be found by the third crew.

A bit confusing but i hope i worded it well

Its because Stargate uses multiple timeline theory.

The original timeline (the we saw on the kino, the one were everyone on the planet died) is one timeline, when the 1st kino went back in time, the original timeline became divergent timeline A. and when the second Kino was sent back in time at the end of the episode divergent timeline A became divergent Timeline B. The important thing to remember is even though the timeline diverts, it doesn't erase. Basically all three happen, the original timeline, timeline A and timeline B, they are just now alternate timelines. Each existing seperately but linked by the kino...and wow that was a really long winded explination.

Joben
November 15th, 2009, 03:20 PM
I think the idea is that they were sent back in time and they exist from that point on even if they don't get sent back in time 'again'.

From memory this is consistent with SG1's view on time travel, at the end of Mobius Pt II (The ep where SG1 go back in time in the jumper to get the ZPM from Ra) you see them with the ZPM and looking at a video of themselves saying they completed the mission, and Carter even says that since they have the ZPM they don't need to do anything or go back in time again.

So they still have the video/ZPM even though they didn't go back in time the second time around.

Pharaoh Atem
November 15th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Riley = true geek of SGU :D

Riley = sgu's hoshi

PG15
November 15th, 2009, 03:23 PM
Again, you can ask the same question of the 3rd timeline. Presumably, they found at least Scott's kino telling them what to do, and thus this timeline's Scott would never have to throw another kino back to explain it all again, and thus Scott's kino would've never existed and they would've never found the solution and...

You see how this goes. The same thing happens in the 2nd timeline. In it, Rush never jumped through the gate, and the original Kino wasn't thrown through the gate either, so they shouldn't have existed, and the 2nd time it looped through would've been the same as the first as there'd be no human remains nor kino to discover.

Basically, it's NOT a predestination paradox. Dead Rush and the 1st Kino now exists at point A for all other timelines, even if the cause of them being there is gone because...that's just how it is now.

Joben
November 15th, 2009, 03:34 PM
As long as they have Rush's bones decorating the gateroom on the Destiny from now on, I'll be happy :)

raptor112
November 15th, 2009, 03:38 PM
Again, you can ask the same question of the 3rd timeline. Presumably, they found at least Scott's kino telling them what to do, and thus this timeline's Scott would never have to throw another kino back to explain it all again, and thus Scott's kino would've never existed and they would've never found the solution and...

You see how this goes. The same thing happens in the 2nd timeline. In it, Rush never jumped through the gate, and the original Kino wasn't thrown through the gate either, so they shouldn't have existed, and the 2nd time it looped through would've been the same as the first as there'd be no human remains nor kino to discover.

Basically, it's NOT a predestination paradox. Dead Rush and the 1st Kino now exists at point A for all other timelines, even if the cause of them being there is gone because...that's just how it is now.


Like I said eariler, its NOT a single timeline, but alternate timelines. Scott doesn't have to throw it back cause it wasn't THIS scott but one from an alternate reality that threw the first kino....and the second. Its not a predestination paradox....but its not the "same" person or timeline

Eternal Density
November 15th, 2009, 05:25 PM
For all we know, the first kino could have gone back 10 years and the second one 5 years. So sending back the second one isn't going to 'erase' the first one.

Eternal Density
November 15th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Like I said eariler, its NOT a single timeline, but alternate timelines. Scott doesn't have to throw it back cause it wasn't THIS scott but one from an alternate reality that threw the first kino....and the second. Its not a predestination paradox....but its not the "same" person or timeline

BTW, please don't refer to alternate realities. Those are a very different and unrelated matter.
Actually, saying 'alternate timelines' isn't quite right either because there's only one 'time line' and that line loops over the same bit of time instead of just going straight.

Ann_Ominous
November 15th, 2009, 05:35 PM
When it comes to time travel stories, I just suspend my disbelief and try to enjoy and not concern myself with how it all works other than for the storyline. I will continue to do that until an actual working time machine is built by us and the principles and properties of time are then known for sure.

Count
November 15th, 2009, 06:46 PM
People are getting hung up on this whole "they never existed to send the message thing". Basically you need to remember this when it comes to time travel.

When a traveller goes through time, they become a part of the flow of events for that time, so they dont "erase" like McFly in back to the future, they always exist, even if the time they come from doesn't. It's a nasty little paradox. So when the first kino and rush went back in time, they "always" existed for the AT2 team, when AT2 sent scotts kino back in time, that kind always existed in the "Real" timeline, even if the two ATs never had the events to occur to create this. The only reason rush and kino a vanished is because of the events of AT2 where they changed what they sent back in time to be a second kino, since what was sent back in time changed, as a result At1 effectively doesn't exist (but it does exist in the multiverse as a parallel quantum reality).

It's the same with every stargate timetravel, the note from 2010 exists, even though the timeline it came from doesnt. Mobieus, the alternate SG-1 exists even though their timeline doesnt, same wiht Atlantis and Before I sleep and every other time travel event. Even if the reality that they came from no longer exists, just by travelling through time, they have brought themselves into existance in the "final" timeline regardless of what happened to their departure time.

The only instance where someone would be "erased from existance" is if they travelled forward in time to a future event, but they wouldn't so much be erased from existance but subject to changes in the past, as the past changes, who and what they interactive with inveraitably will.

If it makes things easier for all of you, remember then quantum mirror daniel found? the one with all the other alternate SGCs out there, most wrecked by the goa'uld? Well now if the Destiny crew were to use that mirror, they could travel to a reality where the entire away team died, or anotherone where the entire Destiny crew died from a plague. They will always exist as a "parallel" reality as a result of the time travel.

PG15
November 15th, 2009, 07:01 PM
When a traveller goes through time, they become a part of the flow of events for that time, so they dont "erase" like McFly in back to the future, they always exist, even if the time they come from doesn't. It's a nasty little paradox. So when the first kino and rush went back in time, they "always" existed for the AT2 team, when AT2 sent scotts kino back in time, that kind always existed in the "Real" timeline, even if the two ATs never had the events to occur to create this. The only reason rush and kino a vanished is because of the events of AT2 where they changed what they sent back in time to be a second kino, since what was sent back in time changed, as a result At1 effectively doesn't exist (but it does exist in the multiverse as a parallel quantum reality).


I (and the show) disagree. Rush and the 1st Kino will indeed exist in the final timeline because it's equivalent to what happens to the 2nd Kino, i.e. all three things come from timelines that no longer exist (or exist as an alternate universe/reality/whatever).

Fact is, the final timeline includes both Kinos, as shown in Kinosode 18.

Joben
November 15th, 2009, 07:13 PM
I (and the show) disagree. Rush and the 1st Kino will indeed exist in the final timeline because it's equivalent to what happens to the 2nd Kino, i.e. all three things come from timelines that no longer exist (or exist as an alternate universe/reality/whatever).

Fact is, the final timeline includes both Kinos, as shown in Kinosode 18.

Exactly, the first Kino is there, the second Kino is there, and the skull should be there.

If you're thinking "Well the first Kino shouldn't be there since they changed what they were sending back in time with the second Kino" then it's a paradox - If the first Kino shouldn't exist since they ended up sending through the second Kino then the first Kino wouldn't exist to begin with, therefore they would have never seen the first Kino, then they'd go through the gate and make the first Kino then send it back in time, etc. etc.

Eternal Density
November 15th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Confusion like this is why McKay hates Back to the Future. While a fun movie it has perpetuated many misconceptions about time travel.

Yes I realise how silly this post is :D

Sim
November 15th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Its a paradox between the Kinos.

The solar flare is the exact same and it should send to the exact same time no matter what. Therefore, Kino 1 shouldn't exist and neither should the bones.

Eternal Density
November 15th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Its a paradox between the Kinos.

The solar flare is the exact same and it should send to the exact same time no matter what. Therefore, Kino 1 shouldn't exist and neither should the bones.No. While the solar flare is the same, Kino 2 entered a lot sooner, so it could have arrived later.

Stormtrooper
November 15th, 2009, 08:08 PM
I thought the writers got it right this time around.

However, if one adopts the new Trek movie "time travel creates alternate realities" thing, then...

Original Reality = everyone dead
Alternate Reality #1 (created by Rush and Kino #1) = everyone dead
Alternate Reality #2 (created by Kino #2) = they survive

In this case, AR #2 should have only one Kino and no Rush's corpse.

Cecil Brax
November 15th, 2009, 10:12 PM
Confusion like this is why McKay hates Back to the Future. While a fun movie it has perpetuated many misconceptions about time travel.

Yes I realise how silly this post is :D

Actually, we can't really discredit one theory or another cause at the moment we have no idea how it would really work. To this date, there is no evidence of Time Travel, so to say "Misconceptions" might be wrong. Many theories over the years have been proven wrong as time goes on because back then, we could only speculate with the information we had availible. Until someone builds a Flux Capacitor I don't think we're really going to know how it works.

In my stories and online adventures, I've used several different time travel instances with an explanation as to why in one storyline time worked one way, and in another, time worked a different way. Though if I posted that here, I am sure I would hear from like 20 people who that can't possibly be right. hehe. Anyway, the point being until someone proves otherwise, Time Travel can work any way the writer wishes it to.

- CB

Inquisitor
November 15th, 2009, 10:29 PM
The 2nd timeline would've been erased as well though, once that 2nd Kino passed through the gate. That's the conceit here - no timelines are erased per se (and thus nothing from the timelines are erased, like dead Rush and the 2 Kinos); they're just new ones every single time.

But from 1969 and Continuum, we know the timeline is altered, but since the stargate is used, it creates a paradox. The timelines are erased!

Phenom
November 16th, 2009, 12:16 AM
Look lets be honest here. Nobody knows for sure what really happens with time travel, if it is at all possible in the first place. Now of course it would be nice if Stargate chose a specific theory to abide by and then made sure that every episode that ever spoke of time travel, alternate realities, alternate timelines etc, was consistent. However with time, some things are going to be slightly different and this leads me to my answer in relation to the discussion on time travel in 'time'....

Stuff happens. It was a good episode. If we break it apart too much there will be plenty of holes.

PG15
November 16th, 2009, 12:28 AM
But from 1969 and Continuum, we know the timeline is altered, but since the stargate is used, it creates a paradox. The timelines are erased!

Well, if we're gonna use the Stargate as the counter-erasure machine here, then the result is the same. The timelines are erased, but whatever comes through the Stargate is not. Rush and both Kinos avoided being erased by going through the Stargate and landing in the past before any time shenanigans happened, and thus all 3 should still exist.

It's like this: yes, the 1st Kino and Rush were brought back to the 2nd Destiny, but in the past, they are still on the planet when the 2nd Kino came through the Stargate. Nothing is changing that.

Guiguioh
November 16th, 2009, 12:33 AM
The theory use for this episode is not the multiverse one, but the continuum rewriting itself from the point of the time travel inside one reality.

Now, they found two kinos (the ones from AT1 and AT2) because the second kino send back by Scott traveled "less in time" so it didn't rewrote the arriving of the first one from AT1.

Remember, Scott sended the kino at the start of the solar flame problem whereas Rush sended his a lot of hours after the problem started. So it is logical that the two kinos didn't arrive at the same point in time.

This web episode #18 confirmed what we saw in Continuum: when time travel occurred with the gate, there isn't a alternate reality created. If that was the case, the two kinos would be in different realities and not together in the same one.

Commander Zelix
November 16th, 2009, 05:49 AM
My point is we should have just found one kino, i mean the first kino (and rush) was sent back at a certain point in time (lets call it point A) which caused the 2nd version of the destiny crew to find it
Its simple, the second Kino was sent to a point back in time AFTER the first Kino (point A).

(so only up to that point the timelines diverge/create another timeline)

Commander Zelix
November 16th, 2009, 05:54 AM
I thought the writers got it right this time around.

However, if one adopts the new Trek movie "time travel creates alternate realities" thing, then...

Original Reality = everyone dead
Alternate Reality #1 (created by Rush and Kino #1) = everyone dead
Alternate Reality #2 (created by Kino #2) = they survive

In this case, AR #2 should have only one Kino and no Rush's corpse.
Its not the right way to see the "creating alternate universe" thing. Yes sending something like a Kino back in time create an alternate universe. But this new alternate universe is different from the prime universe only from the point in time where the Kino was sent back. The timelines (events, people) before that are exactly the same.

nemesis24
November 16th, 2009, 08:37 AM
Its simple, the second Kino was sent to a point back in time AFTER the first Kino (point A).

(so only up to that point the timelines diverge/create another timeline)

My point still stands, how can thw first kino be sent back if the people who sent it werent there to send it. its like a chain, one link would only see the links immediently connected - take this into the time traveling

first destiny crew go on planet all but Scott are killed, he send a kino through the worm-hole only for it to be sent back in time
second destiny crew find this, find out planet is dangerous n something is in the water supply. they go back to planet all but scott die but he sends a message warning about the virus n cure in the planet.
third crew must therefore only find 1 kino as the first groups events never happened because the second group didnt do the same things they did.

i think you are going on the lines of parallel universes (thats what different timelines are, events that occured differently to how they did in the observers universe) but that doesnt apply here as the gate only sent the kino back in time

nemesis24
November 16th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Exactly, the first Kino is there, the second Kino is there, and the skull should be there.

If you're thinking "Well the first Kino shouldn't be there since they changed what they were sending back in time with the second Kino" then it's a paradox - If the first Kino shouldn't exist since they ended up sending through the second Kino then the first Kino wouldn't exist to begin with, therefore they would have never seen the first Kino, then they'd go through the gate and make the first Kino then send it back in time, etc. etc.

Not really because the timeline has already been affected, crew A sent it back so crew b do different actions which arent dependent on crew a (even though it was them who sent the message back).

When people talk about causality thats what this is, a item goes into the past which changes the future which means that the universe where the item came from would be a alternate universe and the past would never experience the future the item was sent from but their future would be a different one.

Commander Zelix
November 16th, 2009, 11:03 AM
My point still stands, how can thw first kino be sent back if the people who sent it werent there to send it.
its like a chain, one link would only see the links immediently connected - take this into the time traveling

Its a link but they all share the EXACTLY the same timeline in the past (not just a similar past). They share this similar past up to a point. They're both immediately connected to the Destiny3 crew timeline (up to a point).

Scott2 and Scott3(who we never saw) share the same past. The past where a Kino was sent back in time by Scott1. So when Scott2 send a kino in this common past to a point in time AFTER the first Kino was sent. Scott2 and Scot3 still share this same past. With kino1 on the planet soil.


i think you are going on the lines of parallel universes (thats what different timelines are, events that occured differently to how they did in the observers universe) but that doesnt apply here as the gate only sent the kino back in time
There's no need for parallel universes to explain what happened. Because Scott2 action doesn't modify everything that happened in his past up to the beginning of time. But only things after the point in time he sent his kino back. One of those thing not modified by him when he send his kino2 is the presence on the planet soil of the Kino1, because it was already there.

Takamuri
November 16th, 2009, 11:52 AM
Technically I guess it could work one of two ways:

1) Scott throws the Kino in as the flare occurs, meaning that his Kino was first, and the events of Kino #1 cease to exist because Destiny group #1 found Kino #2 and managed to find the cure.

2) The flare always returns you to the exact same point in time regardless of when you enter. Therefore Kino #1 and Kino #2 exit the Stargate at the same time and exist at the same time.

I’m guessing scenario #1 is more likely.

Remember that the timeline is not linear, the events arent happening in the order of :
Destiny 1 -> Destiny 2 -> Destiny 3

It happened like this:
|||||||Destiny 1 -> Shows up and gets slaughtered.
|||||||Destiny 2 -> Shows up and finds a Kino sent from Destiny 1.
|||||||Destiny 3 -> Shows up and finds the Kino sent from Destiny 2.

It would be a paradox if the events of Destiny 1 still happen if the Kino from Destiny 2 was sent before Destiny 1s (which it was, as they waited for the Solar Flare to occur). This is because Destiny 1 would have then found Destiny 2s Kino.

Count
November 16th, 2009, 03:58 PM
Fer cryin' out loud. Here is the problem everyone explains with Two kinos.

It's a writers error.

however, in actuality, it shuld have performed like this:

AT1 sent Rush and the Kino back in time, directly into their past, to AT2 discover them both of the world, with the video of them being slaughtered. the INSTANT they discover this footage, AT1 ceases to exist in the timeline because the timeline has been altered just by finding the corpse and the kino (they didnt stop to investigate the first time around, they just started foraging and got attacked while camping the gate).

AT2 didn't stay on that planet the first night in the rainstorm, they returnd to the ship and brought a corpse with them.

When AT2 went through and chucked a Kino through the gate, this kino would have arrived in the Final timeline, however, since the event where Rush desperatly escaped through the gate and the Kino recorded their brutal slaughter never occured, they do not exist to be sent back in time to the Final' timeline in the first place. The only reason they even exist is because they are the precursor for AT2 to send it's own kino back.

Long story short, they goofed, no matter what form of temporal physics or logic you look at it, the Final timeline shouldn't have even known AT1's kino ever existed unless it came from a parallel reality at the same time as the corpse, because the future event that sent the corpse and kino back in time was "recorded over" with the second kino and creature-capture event.

Eternal Density
November 16th, 2009, 06:09 PM
Rubbish, two kinos is not an error by any means, unless you intentionally choose to use a time travel theory that is inconsistent with the facts. And that's mean. The only way for there to be no explanation for two kinos is if your trying not to find one because you have a prior commitment to the belief that it's wrong.

Count
November 16th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Rubbish, two kinos is not an error by any means, unless you intentionally choose to use a time travel theory that is inconsistent with the facts. And that's mean. The only way for there to be no explanation for two kinos is if your trying not to find one because you have a prior commitment to the belief that it's wrong.

No sorry, that's a load of crap you just spouted, i have a firm grounding in this kind of theoretical physics. The only possibilities that would result in the two kinos existing together is in the following conditions:

the corpse and kino or other kino are from a parallel reality where an identical instance happened,
or
the second kino arrived AFTER the first one and the corpse did.

There's no other way around it.

HOWEVER, I have done some research using some stargate lore to justify this kind of crap happening and i have found it.

1969

SG-1 arrives at an abandon SGC, they meet an old woman who tells them they entered the stargate too soon and they got flung far into the future (overshot the mark). The woman was Cassandra.

Here's our precidence, since Scott through the Kino through the INSTANT the solar flare disrupted the wormhole, it means he was offtiming with the second kino which means that it arrived after rush and AT1's kino did. If it had arrived before, AT1 would have never died on the planet because they'd have found the kino warning them of the virus, the shriekers and the like already, so it had to have arrived afterwards (AT1's kino would have seen AT2's when it rolled through the gate).

Because AT1 Rush and the Kino went through at different times, as well as the fact that AT2's kino did not go through at the same time as Rush or the AT1 kino, it means that they could coexist quite comfortably in the one reality.

Case closed.

SoulReaver
November 16th, 2009, 06:48 PM
When it comes to time travel stories, I just suspend my disbelief and try to enjoy and not concern myself with how it all works other than for the storyline.probably the most sensible point of view in this topic so far :|

Count
November 16th, 2009, 07:44 PM
probably the most sensible point of view in this topic so far :|

so you two, come onto a scifi forum, into a scifi-based thread regarding theoretical science just to make yourself sound less geeky by saying "Why does it matter?"

Sorry guys, you're already geeks just by being here.

Commander Zelix
November 17th, 2009, 08:07 AM
AT1 sent Rush and the Kino back in time, directly into their past, to AT2 discover them both of the world, with the video of them being slaughtered. the INSTANT they discover this footage, AT1 ceases to exist in the timeline because the timeline has been altered just by finding the corpse and the kino
In fact, using your own logic. The kino slaughter tape would INSTANTLY disappear, since AT1 cease to exist they can't have produced such tape and sent it back in the past. (Using your theory of kino disappearing in the past if the future events don't happens).

So for one, you picked the wrong "instant" to have the AT1 crew ceasing to exist. But even if we pick another "instant". Its still very cumbersome.

Some of the question we can ask, and its strange the "nature" could "know" is: What is the instant AT1 cease to exist? Also: What happens at this very instant to the Kino1 slaughter tape when AT1 cease to exist? Since Kino1 tapes is a product of AT1.

Stormtrooper
November 17th, 2009, 08:40 AM
^ That's why the multiverse theory works better.

Instead of erasing the previous timelines and producing paradoxes, each time travel event creates a new reality/universe which diverges from the prime reality/universe from that point on.

nemesis24
November 17th, 2009, 09:39 AM
In fact, using your own logic. The kino slaughter tape would INSTANTLY disappear, since AT1 cease to exist they can't have produced such tape and sent it back in the past. (Using your theory of kino disappearing in the past if the future events don't happens).

So for one, you picked the wrong "instant" to have the AT1 crew ceasing to exist. But even if we pick another "instant". Its still very cumbersome.

Some of the question we can ask, and its strange the "nature" could "know" is: What is the instant AT1 cease to exist? Also: What happens at this very instant to the Kino1 slaughter tape when AT1 cease to exist? Since Kino1 tapes is a product of AT1.

Well in the final set of people from the destiny crew that go to the planet would only find the kino from the second run of events, to them the first run of events cannot exist - the first run of events (ie the kino) would exist in the second run but not in the third as the first run cannot have any bearing on the third. Or that is my understanding of the thing

Wayston
November 17th, 2009, 09:42 AM
true, it would only exist materially in the second universe like the slaughter of young and greer only happening in the second and not the third or first

Commander Zelix
November 17th, 2009, 09:46 AM
^ That's why the multiverse theory works better.

Instead of erasing the previous timelines and producing paradoxes, each time travel event creates a new reality/universe which diverges from the prime reality/universe from that point on.
The multiverse theory does work better.

The easiest solution to the non-multiverse system is to have the subject traveling through time living outside the causality circle. So the effect of causality don't affect him.

For example, for the grandfather paradox:

Subject travel in the past, kill his own grandfather. Return to the future. The future is changed. One of his parent don't exist, the other one lives a different life. But the traveling subject is still there. He simply got no parents. He got a past nobody can remember. He traveling in time made him (and his molecules) impervious to the causality effect. He was a full member of the past era before he decided to travel (back) to the future.

Commander Zelix
November 17th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Well in the final set of people from the destiny crew that go to the planet would only find the kino from the second run of events, to them the first run of events cannot exist - the first run of events (ie the kino) would exist in the second run but not in the third as the first run cannot have any bearing on the third. Or that is my understanding of the thing

I understand what you mean when u say the third run is not directly linked to the first run in your vision of thing. But its not based on any logic of time travel.

For example, if the AT3 destiny crew decide in the next episode, after the event of "Time", to send a Kino in the past. Lets say at the time between the episode "Earth" and "Time". Lets say they now know how to use the Destiny Stargate to do that.

Lets say the Kino message is about repairing something simple like a console on the destiny so it doesn't explode and kill Young and Rush a few moment after the even of "Time".

So the AT3 destiny crew quit the jungle planet, after having been saved by the AT2 kino message sent by Scott2, the console explode, Young and Rush die, Eli derive somehow how to send kino back in time, so they send a kino back in time to tell themselves to repair the exploding console.

So now AT4 receive the message, at the time between the episode "Earth" and "Time", makes the repair and go on the jungle planet.

Does that mean the Kino left by AT2 is not there anymore? Since its 2 step down in the number of "time traveling" by the same crew?

By what logic?

So by now any travel back in time would make the AT2 kino on the Planet disappear? Since it would turn the AT3 crew into an AT4 crew (or AT5 etc). Hence not directly related.

sg1_david
November 17th, 2009, 11:33 AM
So basically, the episode never happened, and anyone who doesn't see the "kinosode" "webisode" or whatever its called will be left totally miffed as to whats going on when they see the next episode when people who died are suddenly alive again with no explanation?

nemesis24
November 17th, 2009, 11:48 AM
I understand what you mean when u say the third run is not directly linked to the first run in your vision of thing. But its not based on any logic of time travel.

For example, if the AT3 destiny crew decide in the next episode, after the event of "Time", to send a Kino in the past. Lets say at the time between the episode "Earth" and "Time". Lets say they now know how to use the Destiny Stargate to do that.

Lets say the Kino message is about repairing something simple like a console on the destiny so it doesn't explode and kill Young and Rush a few moment after the even of "Time".

So the AT3 destiny crew quit the jungle planet, after having been saved by the AT2 kino message sent by Scott2, the console explode, Young and Rush die, Eli derive somehow how to send kino back in time, so they send a kino back in time to tell themselves to repair the exploding console.

So now AT4 receive the message, at the time between the episode "Earth" and "Time", makes the repair and go on the jungle planet.

Does that mean the Kino left by AT2 is not there anymore? Since its 2 step down in the number of "time traveling" by the same crew?

By what logic?

So by now any travel back in time would make the AT2 kino on the Planet disappear? Since it would turn the AT3 crew into an AT4 crew (or AT5 etc). Hence not directly related.

All i know is what i had been taught, in this instant the events that took place would only hold relavance to the timeline immedently behind it. Using this ep, if the message from AT2 gets back to AT3 and they do everything like they are supposed to (get a creature, find a cure...) then the 'AT4' would not be a alternate timeline because they would have no interprence from AT3, it would just be a passage of time where they go to the planet find this kino from AT2. It would only become AT4 if AT3 send a kino back themselves.

Either way, if AT3 send another message back then AT4 would only see the message from AT3 not AT2

Count
November 17th, 2009, 01:08 PM
In fact, using your own logic. The kino slaughter tape would INSTANTLY disappear, since AT1 cease to exist they can't have produced such tape and sent it back in the past. (Using your theory of kino disappearing in the past if the future events don't happens).

So for one, you picked the wrong "instant" to have the AT1 crew ceasing to exist. But even if we pick another "instant". Its still very cumbersome.

Some of the question we can ask, and its strange the "nature" could "know" is: What is the instant AT1 cease to exist? Also: What happens at this very instant to the Kino1 slaughter tape when AT1 cease to exist? Since Kino1 tapes is a product of AT1.

That is the exact reasoning i used originally, i changed my tune and incorporated stargate lore when i watched the Kinosode and found they had identified TWO kinos and a corpse on the planet, rather then just a kino. It annoyed the hell out of me why the writers would screw up well known and accepted scientific theory like that, so the only option i had was the concept that a time traveller is protected from causality, so the corpse and first kino will always exist even if the universe they're from doesnt... which i explained quite clearly

Eternal Density
November 17th, 2009, 02:13 PM
the second kino arrived AFTER the first one and the corpse did. I've said that very thing two or three times.

[edit] And I'm not fond of the "timelines cease to exist" interpretation. They're all part of one timeline which doubles back on itself, or something like that.

ZoSo
November 17th, 2009, 03:38 PM
So basically, the episode never happened, and anyone who doesn't see the "kinosode" "webisode" or whatever its called will be left totally miffed as to whats going on when they see the next episode when people who died are suddenly alive again with no explanation?

In my humble opinion, I think that if someone can't figure out on their own that the team found the message, went to the planet during the day, captured a few creatures, and cured the disease- then they would be better suited to watching reality tv instead of science fiction.

If you need someone to hold your hand through a story and can't think for yourself then this is not the genre for you. Of course, with the way the episodes had been going up until "Time" I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few not capable of putting two and two together.

escyos
November 17th, 2009, 03:48 PM
wouldnt the fact that it HAPPENED, mean that ....well, it HAPPENED!

TheRandomOne
November 17th, 2009, 03:53 PM
In my humble opinion, I think that if someone can't figure out on their own that the team found the message, went to the planet during the day, captured a few creatures, and cured the disease- then they would be better suited to watching reality tv instead of science fiction.

If you need someone to hold your hand through a story and can't think for yourself then this is not the genre for you. Of course, with the way the episodes had been going up until "Time" I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few not capable of putting two and two together.

Blame the writers for wanting new viewers who do not watch Stargate or Sci-Fi regularly

Eternal Density
November 17th, 2009, 04:04 PM
In my humble opinion, I think that if someone can't figure out on their own that the team found the message, went to the planet during the day, captured a few creatures, and cured the disease- then they would be better suited to watching reality tv instead of science fiction.

If you need someone to hold your hand through a story and can't think for yourself then this is not the genre for you. Of course, with the way the episodes had been going up until "Time" I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few not capable of putting two and two together.Are you saying that people who watch and understand science fiction are smart and people who watch and understand reality tv are stupid? Because that's what it looks like you're saying.

escyos
November 17th, 2009, 04:05 PM
Are you saying that people who watch and understand science fiction are smart and people who watch and understand reality tv are stupid? Because that's what it looks like you're saying.

i think that, reality tv is NEVER complex, usually just celebrities making food in a house with cameras on an island while competing in games for money for charities

The Prophet
November 17th, 2009, 04:14 PM
Are you saying that people who watch and understand science fiction are smart and people who watch and understand reality tv are stupid? Because that's what it looks like you're saying.

There's probably a correlation.

jelgate
November 17th, 2009, 04:19 PM
There's probably a correlation.correlation does not equal causation;)

The Prophet
November 17th, 2009, 04:20 PM
correlation does not equal causation;)

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png

:D

But really, I'm not agreeing Sci-Fi causes people to be smart, whilst Reality causes them to be stupid, but that in general, you'll find Sci-Fi viewers are more intelligent than Reality-viewers, on average.

Eternal Density
November 17th, 2009, 04:21 PM
i think that, reality tv is NEVER complex, usually just celebrities making food in a house with cameras on an island while competing in games for money for charitiesIn that case, that audience isn't going to follow the communication stones at all :D
[edit]Wow, an xkcd-worthy line and the comic itself, while i was posting. My work here is done for me!

Count
November 17th, 2009, 07:23 PM
[edit] And I'm not fond of the "timelines cease to exist" interpretation. They're all part of one timeline which doubles back on itself, or something like that.

Yea, but there really is only three explanations that can legitimately be provided to explain what happened,


either these were artefacts from a parallel reality that appeared in the real timeline where something different happened.
there is only one timeline and these two ceased to exist when the objects were sent back in time, they remain because they are casually locked to the new reality (When someone travels in time, they become part of those events forever)
the timeline "feeds back" onto itself each time someone travels through time like a mobieus curve. So the true timeline would always have been:
AT1 dies -> sends Kino and rush -> AT2 dies - > sends kino -> AT3 lives.
Like a causality loop


Personally, the simplest analogy i can think of that keeps it all simple and straight it so do this:

Think of time as a hard drive, you've written data near the end of the drive (the event that killed everyone), but you move a bit of data to an earlier part of the drive (the kino and corpse), so when the drive plays out again, because of the new data on the drive, the writing continues but changes to accomodate the new data that's already there. (AT1 ceased to be).

Same thing for the other realities. Each time something went back in time to change the timeline, the "true" reality was erased from the timeline and the new reality took it's place. That would support the concept of "one true timeline only"

Eternal Density
November 17th, 2009, 07:37 PM
I like to visualise the final state of the timeline as branching into three, where the first two loop back around to the branching point and the third one continues on. (It's a little tricky to describe it properly with words.)