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AVFan
November 14th, 2009, 11:43 AM
lol, yeah, you guessed it. I'm having problems consuming and understanding this time-travel stuff.

Ok, so. We have at least three different timelines in this episode, denoted here by AT1, AT2, and AT3.

As we saw, AT1 is our original team- they go through the gate, they get sick, they get burrowed into, and Scott chucks the Kino through the gate to get it back to what he thinks is the Destiny.

Next, AT2. They are the team that watched AT1's Kino, and hope to fix everything. They go to the planet to get venom from the creatures, but end up getting mashed up themselves. Again, everyone is dead except Scott. He tosses the Kino through the gate, and that's where the episode ends.


Finally AT3. This is the team that presumably gets AT2's Kino and fixes everything before everyone dies. (This part is speculation- I'm fairly sure it's correct, however.)

Ok, so now for my TT problem.

AT1 gates into DCH-666 (don't come here 666 :p) at x point in time.
Wouldn't AT2 run into AT1 at that exact same x point in time? Or technically, neither team would be able to because the gate would be busy from both requests. And while we're at it, AT3 would run into AT1 and 2.

I'll use a Continuum example. Mitchell gates back 1929 to change the timeline. Say, for whatever reason, he's not able to kill Baal. He gets killed and forgotten just like the other crew, and the Earth takeover happens again, and again, Mitchell goes back to kill Baal. Would he find his first self there? I think he would.
Am I right? Or completely off base?

Oh, and I'm not going to even go into asking what happened to AT1!Rush when he ran through the gate, not to mention AT1!Scott and AT2!Scott. Right now my head's about to explode as it is. :o

DigiFluid
November 14th, 2009, 12:05 PM
Timeline 1:
Destiny shows up over the planet, they go there to find food supplies. Rush discovers human remains--unbeknownst to him, his own. People start falling ill, and at night they're attacked by the local monsters.

They survive a night and on the second night, Rush chances a jump through the unstable wormhole. He ends up dead in the past, consumed by the creatures attacking them, who then generate an antibody from his remains. Scott, feeling better after having been bitten by one of the creatures, tosses their kino ball through the gate as well--the catalyst for generating an alternate timeline.

Timeline 2:
Destiny arrives in the system, and the first people through the gate find said Kino ball. Rather than continuing the search for food (as they did in Timeline 1, where there was no Kino ball), they bring it back to the ship and find out about the horrible fate of themselves in Timeline 1.

People on Destiny start falling ill without having been to the planet. Eventually, they determine that the creatures (as a result of Timeline 1, though they don't know that) have an antibody for the infection plaguing the crew. Young, Greer, and Scott go to the planet to try to bring back a live creature, but it's already too late. It's night, and the creatures are out hunting.

Seeing Young and Greer killed, and knowing there was no hope, Scott makes a decision: he concisely summarizes everything they learnt up till that point, and then tosses the Kino ball through the unstable wormhole--creating a third distinct timeline.

Timeline 3 (off-screen):
Destiny arrives at the planet and finds the Kino ball with Scott's rushed explanation. They grab some sleeping critters and vaccinate themselves.




This is essentially the story that SG-1 tried to do with "Moebius". Except this time, it didn't suck.

Temporal mechanics in a multiverse....gotta love it ;)

s09119
November 14th, 2009, 12:11 PM
I think I've got it;

AT1's team arrives on the planet in late 2009, becoming ill very quickly and falling under attack from those creatures. They find human remains around the stargate, and are later massacred, with only Scott managing to throw a kino into the malfunctioning stargate before being killed himself. AT1's Rush also manages to get through, and, like the kino, arrives elsewhere in time. Due to tampering with how things will play out, this timeline now ceases to exist.

AT2 also arrives on the planet in late 2009, finds AT1's kino near the stargate, and quickly returns to the Destiny to examine it. Explaining how they found human remains is easy if you consider that we don't know where in time the wormhole sent Rush and the kino... both could have been sent back dozens of years, and thus while the Ancient device survived intact, Rush's corpse decayed, leaving behind the skeleton AT2's team found. They figure out how to cure their illness, but are unable to fix it in time, and once again, it is up to Scott to send a kino back in time, explaining what happened and how to solve the problem. Due to tampering with how things will play out, this timeline now ceases to exist.

Presumably, this is where AT3 comes in. They go to the planet and find Scott's kino, explaining the situation and urging them to find the alien creatures before its too late. With this knowledge in hand, they extract the needed venom and break the cycle. This timeline is the one that now exists in the show.

AVFan
November 14th, 2009, 12:20 PM
I'm not sure if that's what I was asking... But I've had brain farts before. What I was asking was- Wouldn't AT1, AT2, and AT3 run into each other in each of those initial dial-ins? For the same reason that 1929 Mitchell and reg. Mitchell existed in the same timeline?

DigiFluid
November 14th, 2009, 12:21 PM
No. It's not like the ship was skipping through time before it got there. The divergent timelines were a result of Kinos being thrown back in time so that they'd be there on the planet before anyone got there.

s09119
November 14th, 2009, 12:37 PM
No. It's not like the ship was skipping through time before it got there. The divergent timelines were a result of Kinos being thrown back in time so that they'd be there on the planet before anyone got there.

Exactly. Think of it more like "2010" and "2001."

Commander Zelix
November 14th, 2009, 12:41 PM
This episode time travel can be explain even without using the multiverse time travel theory.


I'm not sure if that's what I was asking... But I've had brain farts before. What I was asking was- Wouldn't AT1, AT2, and AT3 run into each other in each of those initial dial-ins?
No, the AT1 AT2 and AT3 destiny crew are the SAME crew which live a different future when they step through the gates and find their respective Kino (well the first time around they don't find any Kino).

So when scott1 send the Kino in the past by error. What he lived is erased. Including AT1 crew stepping into the gate. Only the Kino he sent in the past (and Rush's skull) "survive" and are the product of a future the AT1 crew will never experience.

(that's without using the multiverse time travel theory which also works here).

Ekiel
November 14th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Wouldn't AT2 run into AT1 at that exact same x point in time? Or technically, neither team would be able to because the gate would be busy from both requests. And while we're at it, AT3 would run into AT1 and 2.

There is no answer. Time travel breaks causality.
You need X to happen for Y but if Y happens X did not.

So yes, they all should run into each other because Crew2 would not gate to the planet if Crew1 had not.
And no, they shouldn't meet because, well, they exist only once and the existence of Crew2 precludes the existence of Crew1.

thekillman
November 14th, 2009, 12:56 PM
the people of the destiny arrive, search for food. after finding some, people start falling ill. after deaths by both creatures and the disease, Rush jumps through, and eventually Scott tossed the Kino through. Scott feels better because of a natural antibiotic in the venom of the creatures. Evolution allows these seemingly random things.


the team of the destiny steps through, finds a Kino, and goes back to the destiny to find out what it contains. after watching the entire thing, people die, they return, and try to get some creatures. everyone except Scott dies (hinting at how hard it is to change time, and shows irony), then Scott, knowing no other way, tosses his Kino through with the explanation of it all.

the team of the destiny arrives, finds human remains, a kino next to the gate and another kino nearby. they go back, investigate what's on both, see Scott's message, go back in daytime and gather some living creatures, cure everyone, and go back. they watch both Kino's and piece together what has happened.



point of irony:

Rush picks up his own skull.
Scott is the one who tosses a kino back in time, twice, and both times is the only survivor.


points of scientific interest:

alien live will develop similar to how our life developed: there are bacteria and archae. the bacteria are vulnerable to antibiotics (certain kinds).

Commander Zelix
November 14th, 2009, 01:04 PM
What is always funny with the multiverse time travel theory. Is that Scott2 which send the Kino back in time to tell the crew what to do. Isn't really changing anything for his own timeline. It merrily create a new alternative timeline (a new branch on the tree) starting in the past.

In the sense that after he send the Kino into the past. His timeline doesn't simply vanish. He still need to face the aliens on the planet. While the Destiny crew still suffer from the water disease. But the alternate timeline Scott3 says a big thank you tho. :D

Ekiel
November 14th, 2009, 01:04 PM
This episode time travel can be explain even without using the multiverse time travel theory.
I doubt that :rolleyes:



No, the AT1 AT2 and AT3 destiny crew are the SAME crew which live a different future
How would they be the SAME if they are apparently different (like not dead and such)?


So when scott1 send the Kino in the past by error. What he lived is erased. Including AT1 crew stepping into the gate. Only the Kino he sent in the past (and Rush's skull) "survive" and are the product of a future the AT1 crew will never experience.
Why is a human erased but a machine is not? A machine containing recordings of a human that was erased.
How was he erased if he wasn't erased?

thekillman
November 14th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Continuum says otherwise.


essentially, the universe is rewritten. so there is an "alternate timeline" but not actually an alternate universe.

Commander Zelix
November 14th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Continuum says otherwise.


essentially, the universe is rewritten. so there is an "alternate timeline" but not actually an alternate universe.
That is the non-multiverse time travel theory.

escyos
November 14th, 2009, 04:34 PM
once the timeline changed, nothign before that technically happened, the only indication was the kino, which would be a paradox

Pharaoh Atem
November 14th, 2009, 04:36 PM
scott's final scene solves the whole issie


timeline 1 destiny crew goes to planet and dies and leaves a kino


timeline 2 destiny crew finds kino and watches themselves die one by one. and realizes that there's something in the water their found a couple eps back. scott leaves kino explaing the whole issue. and how to fix it


timeline 3 team finds kino and now knows that the planet is dangerous and how to solve the issue with the water. and no one is dead.


my personal view on things

adaminator1
November 14th, 2009, 04:41 PM
I do understand it.

AT1 - No kino to change what happened, they sent a kino back in time for

AT2 - Receives kino 1, thus changing the events from what happened when they landed on the planet, they all die, and scott sends another kino, kino 2 back to--

AT3 - Unseen.


They are alternate FUTURES which have all been CHANGED. If there was no KINO we would be back at AT1. but AT1 Sent a kino for AT2 to find before the future gets worse, it gets worse, AT2 sends another recording back to AT3.

I know, Confusing.

Gatz
November 14th, 2009, 04:41 PM
Continuum says otherwise.


essentially, the universe is rewritten. so there is an "alternate timeline" but not actually an alternate universe.

The logic in Stargate Continuum was just like a big brain fart. I mean, it looked cool, but didn't make any sense at all.

Gatz
November 14th, 2009, 04:43 PM
This is essentially the story that SG-1 tried to do with "Moebius". Except this time, it didn't suck.


My thoughts exactly

Count
November 14th, 2009, 06:19 PM
Temporal science is very very basic, most of what we believe is based on theories and educated guesses by most scientists.

The reason they did not see two alternate versions of the Destiny crew on that planet is fairly straightfoward. Basically because the message was received at the same time on the 3 seperate timelines (The first time they go through the gate and see the Kino) the only person they could ever find would be Rush.

Essentially it goes down like this, AT1 goes through the gate, dies horribly, rush goes through the gate and scott sends the kino through later. Now AT1 Rush and the AT1 Kino exist on that planet. AT1 ceases to exist because these two elements are now in the timeline that AT1 never saw (They never found a kino and never found rush's skull), so we now have AT2.

AT2 goes through the gate, they pick up the Kino, find the skeleton and act a little more cautiously, time changes, so most of the people who originally went to the planet no longer go to the planet, but people start dying because they were sick regardless. The AT2 team goes to the planet and tries to get the venom, they fail and most are killed, however, because Rush is not on the planet and Eli is not on the planet with a Kino, they aren't sent back in time to before the Destiny crew arrived on the planet initially, so they arent discovered by AT3. However, Scott sends a different Kino through the gate to be discovered by AT3.

This third timeline, AT3 only ever discovered a single Kino on the planet and no body, they follow the instructions and save everyone.

The reason they'd never find alternate teams is a quirk of temporal physics, basically if you travel back in time to a point before an event occurs (the team arriving on the planet), any alternate timelines will no longer exist to perform those events because the precursors for those events arent there (AT1's rush and kino, completly empty planet).

A pre-destination paradox is the verison of time travel where a time traveller from an alternate timeline can coexist with the first one, but this is not the case because they were not "always destined" to be on that planet and have a warning from the future.

I hope that makes sense, it's hard to explain.

Avenger
November 14th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Count's pretty much got it. Also, the Kinos (and Rush) were sent back in time a significant amount of time because the remains they found were bone with no sign of skin, clothing, etc.

The reason the people who went to the planet don't run into themselves is because no one, except for Rush, actually traveled through time and he was dead by the time the team arrived on the planet.

escyos
November 14th, 2009, 06:49 PM
i think the creatures killed rush sometime after going through and when scott cam through realised what had happened and buried him a bit away from the gate

Dain
November 14th, 2009, 06:56 PM
You all made one mistake: Rush's remains weren't found in the first timeline. This was a Kino-recording of AT2.

It's easy to see were the mistake occured since there are only two scenes of the original away team on the planet in AT2, so you could be mislead into attributing the second AT2-scene to the majority of AT1-Kino recordings seen during the episode.
However, the recordings of AT1 were always replayed in the order they were shot and that should have given a clue that the skull-scene (daylight, everyone still alive) didn't belong to the AT1-footage (night, rain, nearly everybody dead).

With that, the time-travel plot hopefully gets a bit clearer.


Still, since the explanation how time-travel works is pretty much completely left to the author of the episode and his imagination, nobody can claim to understand what exactly should and should not have happened. Time-travel in itself breaks all hope of maintaining casuality.


I'll use a Continuum example.

Your reasoning is most certainly flawed since no matter what time-travel model you use, in the future of that timeline only one person will be sent, even if this one person fails in its mission. If you were to be sent back, failed and then are sent again, then you ARE the person that failed the first time. A closed loop, perhaps.

After all, failing that mission shouldn't result in an infinite stream of clones emerging from the future, until one of them finally suceeds - that wouldn'
t make sense. There is always only this one version of the time-traveller in existance.

Count
November 14th, 2009, 07:17 PM
You all made one mistake: Rush's remains weren't found in the first timeline. This was a Kino-recording of AT2.

It's easy to see were the mistake occured since there are only two scenes of the original away team on the planet in AT2, so you could be mislead into attributing the second AT2-scene to the majority of AT1-Kino recordings seen during the episode.
However, the recordings of AT1 were always replayed in the order they were shot and that should have given a clue that the skull-scene (daylight, everyone still alive) didn't belong to the AT1-footage (night, rain, nearly everybody dead).

With that, the time-travel plot hopefully gets a bit clearer.


Still, since the explanation how time-travel works is pretty much completely left to the author of the episode and his imagination, nobody can claim to understand what exactly should and should not have happened. Time-travel in itself breaks all hope of maintaining casuality.



Your reasoning is most certainly flawed since no matter what time-travel model you use, in the future of that timeline only one person will be sent, even if this one person fails in its mission. If you were to be sent back, failed and then are sent again, then you ARE the person that failed the first time. A closed loop, perhaps.

After all, failing that mission shouldn't result in an infinite stream of clones emerging from the future, until one of them finally suceeds - that wouldn'
t make sense. There is always only this one version of the time-traveller in existance.

AT2 found AT1's Rush and Kino, i said that already. AT3 is the version that receive Scott's warning after Young's team dies.

Avenger
November 14th, 2009, 07:21 PM
i think the creatures killed rush sometime after going through and when scott cam through realised what had happened and buried him a bit away from the gate

Scott never went through the gate to time travel. He sent the Kino through. No more.

Orange Crush
November 14th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Since Moebius resulted in multiple copies of SG1, it stands to reason that the three timelines don't diverge until the point Eli finds the kino(s). So in the unseen 3rd timeline, he should find *two* kinos (and Rush's bones)

DigiFluid
November 14th, 2009, 08:25 PM
Since Moebius resulted in multiple copies of SG1, it stands to reason that the three timelines don't diverge until the point Eli finds the kino(s). So in the unseen 3rd timeline, he should find *two* kinos (and Rush's bones)

The MIA Kinosode 18 shows Eli and Scott explaining how they found two Kinos on the planet :)

MattSilver 3k
November 14th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Huh... I didn't find it that hard to understand...

Unless my reasoning is completely wrong? Huh...

SupremeLegate
November 14th, 2009, 08:34 PM
Too me the time travel made perfect since, as long as you follow the theory that when you chance something in the past that timeline is changed. If you followed the multi-verse theory with time travel it gets a bit more confusing as all three timelines exist.

mabhatter
November 14th, 2009, 09:35 PM
I'm not sure if that's what I was asking... But I've had brain farts before. What I was asking was- Wouldn't AT1, AT2, and AT3 run into each other in each of those initial dial-ins? For the same reason that 1929 Mitchell and reg. Mitchell existed in the same timeline?

no because only the Kino ball actually survives the trips back... essentially changing the outcome of the 1 fixed point they dial the gate and the other slightly floating points that send other kinos back. I'm glad this hasn't been turned into a two-parter... although it was hard to tell the problem was really solved. Definitely written differently than similar SG1 episodes.

escyos
November 14th, 2009, 09:50 PM
Scott never went through the gate to time travel. He sent the Kino through. No more.

he first scott did, he went through at the last minute, what else was he going to do die there.

RobertF
November 14th, 2009, 10:16 PM
Count's pretty much got it. Also, the Kinos (and Rush) were sent back in time a significant amount of time because the remains they found were bone with no sign of skin, clothing, etc.


So I guess we don't know exactly how far back in time Scott, Rush, and the kinos were sent. How long does it take clothing and flesh to rot away in a tropical environment? A few weeks? Although I suppose the remains could have been picked clean by hungry critters within a few hours, who knows? The recovered kinos in the kino webisode did look quite corroded.

The multiverse explanation makes the most sense to me - sending the kinos back in time creates an alternative timeline/universe that "buds off" from the existing timeline at the point in the past when the kino emerges from the stargate. This prevents the crew from tampering with their own past and creating time travel paradoxes.

I did find it interesting that when Scott jumped through the stargate, he saw Rush's body - he didn't emerge from the stargate at the same point in the past as Rush. So the wormhole link to the past isn't connected to one point in the past, but apparently moves forward.

Perhaps time travel could create the opportunity to "replicate" supplies for the crew. If the crew in each timeline sent a small portion of their supplies of food, water, medicine, whatever back through the stargate after the solar flare, a sizable supply dump could eventually be created for the following timelines. Of course, if they're going back more than several days into the past, the supplies would spoil. Oh well, just a thought.

Commander Zelix
November 14th, 2009, 10:45 PM
The multiverse explanation makes the most sense to me - sending the kinos back in time creates an alternative timeline/universe that "buds off" from the existing timeline at the point in the past when the kino emerges from the stargate. This prevents the crew from tampering with their own past and creating time travel paradoxes.

On this forum (or even writers), many people use the multiverse theory the same way we could use the non-multiverse theory of time travel. Because they consider the previous timeline to simply vanish by the action of sending a Kino into the past. For example for them, the AT1 video on the Kino where we see them getting slaughtered by the aliens never actually happens. This timeline has vanished in their opinion. Obviously creating the paradox of who send this Kino and even how comes there's a video of things that never actually happens.

IMO, in the multiverse theory, when somebody sent a message into the past, he merrily create another timeline (another branch in the infinite number of universe tree). While he must still face the consequences of his own universe. Which I admit makes his action a bit more pointless for him. As I said earlier with that theory the final Scott2 sent a kino that doesn't change anything to his own predicament but only the one of an alternative Destiny crew (called AT2 on this thread).

Obviously, while theres no advantage to do that in this particular episode. Sending himself into the past could, in my theory, save his own ass. The same way the Kino was saved (preserved). He could meet his alternative self in that past.

For example in this episode the final Scott2 (the one which sent the kino telling the destiny crew the whole story), if he was able to send himself just a few second before after the Destiny crew get out of the gate at the Jungle planet. He would scream to them "get back to the Destiny NOW, or you all going to die". Then he would explain to the Destiny crew, including his alternative self, what he said in the Kino. Thus saving his own ass and the ones of the alternative Destiny crew.

Do I make any sense? Anyway that's the way I view it.

Ann_Ominous
November 14th, 2009, 10:59 PM
It is hard to say just how Rush died. It could of been from the creatures or from the disease. All we see is a quick shot of him lying on the ground. I did not pause the dvr and do a close examination to see if any bloody wounds from a creature attack could be seen or not. Anybody with it recorded care to play it back, pause it and take a closer look?

Stuff would decompose pretty fast in that enviroment, so we are probably talking a few months to a few years. Maybe just weeks, but more than just a day or two. Again, I didn't get that good of a look at the finding the skull scene. Any metal rivets or belt buckle parts should of been present.

shade45
November 15th, 2009, 12:05 AM
Yeah I think the different writers in the Stargate series unfortunately used different theories for their plots. There were multiple episodes where they dealt with parallel universes (which is the same thing as an alternate timeline) so I don't see how the multi-verse timetravel theory wouldn't apply in this case.

Each time the Kino was sent back in time, another parallel universe was created. So in terms of which came first, and taking into account the 3 parallel timelines in this episode, the show we've been watchign for the past 7 weeks is actually the second parallel universe. The one before it is the one where they initially all go to the planet, get infected eaten by the bugs and then send the Kino back. And the show that we're gonna be watching from this point on is actually gonna be the third parallel universe in which another set of the characters will find the other Kino and hopefully prevent the disease and the bugs and everything.

But, based on multi-verse thinking, all the characters that we've watched for the past 7 weeks are all dead. The ones that are alive are the ones in a parallel universe that received that Kino :(

Radz
November 15th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Here's my take of things:

-There are 3 timelines: Alternate 1, Alternate 2, and Prime
-The Kinosode is the Prime timeline where they find two kinos and catch the aliens and cure themselves
-Alternate 1 is the timeline where they show up and die of the disease or get gutted by the aliens
-Alternate 2 is the timeline where they find one kino and Scott sends another with the message

My theory combines multiverse and pre-destination theory. The Prime universe (a.k.a. the final results for the show) is pre-destined for a certain outcome which the characters never know about, but we get to watch how things happened.

Think of the timeline like this...time is a line, but at some point the line loops back to a previous point in the line. This loop goes back and over the original line replacing it. Rinse and repeat this process as many times as you want, but in the end, the prime timeline is however that section that looped ended. Pre-destined to happen the way it did with all temporal influences intact.

To the characters aboard Destiny from now on, they just found the kinos and caught the aliens...they never knew anything different. The other timelines are in their own universe which were predestined for them to die in various ways.

Arwis
November 15th, 2009, 04:20 AM
I'm not sure if that's what I was asking... But I've had brain farts before. What I was asking was- Wouldn't AT1, AT2, and AT3 run into each other in each of those initial dial-ins? For the same reason that 1929 Mitchell and reg. Mitchell existed in the same timeline?

Stargate Franchise uses 1 time line but alternative realities. Gates sends people back and forward in the same time line but alternative reality. Probably there's some unexplained pattern that solar flare sends people to just one or just another alternative reality.In this case we can avoid that 2 teams will meet on the same place unless someone or somethings(in this case Rush and Kino) enters alternative reality. However if Rush would have survived on that planet somehow than yes, he would meet another team just as his skull did. What just differs is the time how far they were sent back, because we see that Rush body had no scull or any clothing marks left. Considering that it was jungle planet i would say rush was lying on the ground at least for few years if not decades.

RobertF
November 15th, 2009, 07:44 AM
Think of the timeline like this...time is a line, but at some point the line loops back to a previous point in the line. This loop goes back and over the original line replacing it. Rinse and repeat this process as many times as you want, but in the end, the prime timeline is however that section that looped ended. Pre-destined to happen the way it did with all temporal influences intact.


So Radz is saying Destiny's destination is pre-destined?

Radz
November 15th, 2009, 09:47 AM
Um...not exactly...and yes at the same time. In the context of the story, no, the Destiny isn't destined for any one place. Eventually they could take control and it would go where they want it. I'm saying that while we make choices along the way in the timeline, a given timeline will unfold in a predestined way. If Rush were to divert the Destiny away from a given course, this would create an alternate universe in which the Destiny never arrived at a given planet and the Prime universe would have them going to the original destination.

It's like saying you're going on a branching road and you decide that you're going to always take the left fork. You HAVE to pass certain locations along the way after making those choices, but you didn't have to make those choices in the first place.

Temporal mechanics is a topic of particular interest to me. I've an unusual grasp on these type of theories.