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GateWorld
November 12th, 2009, 01:24 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2009-2.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SPECIAL:</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE WATERS OF MARS</A></FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
The Doctor visits an Earth base on the surface of Mars, where a water-based creature is terrorizing the colonists.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/specials/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Crazedwraith
November 15th, 2009, 11:13 AM
Well that was all right. It seemed long on set up and the climax was rushed. The solution was similar to what i was expecting; he TARDISes everyone off. Except I was expecting him to just not teleport them back to Earth; take them anywhere else, anytime and people never hear of them again and all the news will be the same as if They actually died.

Still isn't their an evil future version of The Doctor? The Valeyard? Tennat was getting pretty dark and close to that at the end.

The End Of Time Preview looked naff to me. Donna and the Master return. Bleh.

pbellosom
November 15th, 2009, 11:20 AM
After a ridiculously slow first quarter the episode was everything we were promised. This almost makes up for the travesty that was Planet of the Dead. I utterly loved it though as Crazedwraith says, the ending was kinda obvious and he could have done it without messing up time by taking them somewhere other than home.

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 11:22 AM
In my opinion, it wasnt what they hyped it up to be as one of the scariest Doctor Who episodes

Overall it was still quite a good episode but I do agree it felt a bit rushed

The bit where it explained why she wasnt killed by the Dalek was well explained, because it too probably realised it couldnt change time.

Also, I kind of predicted the ending but because of spoilers :) but didnt expect the Doctor to get so full off himself with the whole 'Im the last one left so i can make the rules'. It seemed quite out of character for him, but Im glad he realised what he had done.

I also agree with Crazedwraith that he could have taken them somewhere else so her daughter still thought she was dead.

Im going to rewatch it on iplayer later because i was eating my dinner while watching it so didnt give it my full attention. Ill probably add to this after I rewatched it.

End Of Time looks quite good

Crazedwraith
November 15th, 2009, 11:29 AM
I thought the Dalek thing was silly. I mean the Dalek plan at the time was to wipe out the entire universe; all universes in fact. So if that Dalek can't even kill a little girl because time says so. How are you supposed to wipe out reality?

And how come these Future people have never heard of The Doctor? despite saving the Earth several bazillion times.

Edit: Sorry Teddybrown but its a persnal bugbear of mine: See my username? See the singular capital letter? I know its petty but still.

Puddle-Jumper
November 15th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Cos the Doctor is like super top secret...... only those who need to know about him know about him... he was hardly on the evening news after each time...

and that was awesome...

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 11:33 AM
I thought the Dalek thing was silly. I mean the Dalek plan at the time was to wipe out the entire universe; all universes in fact. So if that Dalek can't even kill a little girl because time says so. How are you supposed to wipe out reality?

And how come these Future people have never heard of The Doctor? despite saving the Earth several bazillion times.

Edit: Sorry Teddybrown but its a persnal bugbear of mine: See my username? See the singular capital letter? I know its petty but still.

Sorry Crazedwraith, Ill edit it in my other post too

That Dalek was probably sensible, Davros was intent on destroying the universe lol

And maybe the future people just wernt told about him?? I dunno, maybe they just forgot about him seeing as they were on Mars for 2 years?

The Prophet
November 15th, 2009, 11:33 AM
More GOD OF TIME Doctor! Hell yeah! :cool:

Time screwed the Timelords. Time for the Timelord to screw Time.

... time timey time.

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 11:36 AM
More GOD OF TIME Doctor! Hell yeah! :cool:

Time screwed the Timelords. Time for the Timelord to screw Time.

... time timey time.

I didnt like this version of the Doctor, well I thought it was interesting, but preferred him as he was

He seemed a bit full off himself and it was a bit too out of character for me

But Im glad he realised what he had done and the consequences it would have.

I wonder if hes going to try and stop it because of the bit at the end in the Tardis

Gregorius
November 15th, 2009, 11:41 AM
The special was okay, at least it was better than Planet of the Dead and that idiotic Cybermen thing some time ago.

Ending, well, was obvious, the same as the Pompey episode. I had hoped he had walked away while hearing the people inside die, but I guess that's too dark for Doctor Who.

I liked the "Time Lord Victorious" speech at the end; a darker Doctor, just what we needed. I also liked the Captain's comments on the Doctor's arrogance, finally someone who says something about his behavior and actually manages to bruise his ego. Now lets hope he goes insane and someone has to stop him for a change.

The Prophet
November 15th, 2009, 11:42 AM
I didnt like this version of the Doctor, well I thought it was interesting, but preferred him as he was

He seemed a bit full off himself and it was a bit too out of character for me

But Im glad he realised what he had done and the consequences it would have.

I wonder if hes going to try and stop it because of the bit at the end in the Tardis

To be fair, he's been told he's destined to die, if I were told that, I'd do my best to screw time over and prevent my death.

Also, he did rescue two people, and allowed Earth to realise why the base had to be destroyed.

What I want to know, is how the two survivers told their superiors/ the press how they escaped from Mars without their rocket. A mysterious man with a blue policebox turns up and whisked them away?

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 11:50 AM
What episode is he told he is going to die? I cant remember

But screwing up time doesnt sound like the Doctor if you know what I mean

And the survivors will probably not be believed, but they will probably have to report to UNIT or someone like that

But rescuing two people may have jeapodised (dunno how thats spelt) the whole planet

What I want to know is what was under the ice...

The Prophet
November 15th, 2009, 11:55 AM
What episode is he told he is going to die? I cant remember

Planet of the Ood, I think? They said something along those lines.


But screwing up time doesnt sound like the Doctor if you know what I mean

But rescuing two people may have jeapodised (dunno how thats spelt) the whole planet

Doesn't the Doctor usually rescue people from time, when they're under dire circumstances?

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 12:05 PM
Planet of the Ood, I think? They said something along those lines.

Thanks. Going to have to rewatch that


Doesn't the Doctor usually rescue people from time, when they're under dire circumstances?

But he said what happened on Mars was fixed. I dont think the other events were so fixed because the people who died on Mars were fixed and if they didnt die, the whole future would be changed eg as the Doctor said in the episode, that womans grand daughter wouldnt have gone to the stars looking for her

Reefgirl
November 15th, 2009, 12:09 PM
I quite enjoyed this one, it did take time to get going but in the end it was good, damn creepy, made me think twice about having a bath.

Ok here goes

Bloody hell hasn't Shane from Neighbours got old

What was the point of WALLE Gadget apart from being a get out clause

God save me from American gadget geek boys

...Ooh Top Gear... sorry got sidetracked...Oooh an Aston Martin

A dark Doctor, a Doctor who believed he was a God and A Doctor who finally realised what he'd done and got told he wasn't all that, was worth the wait.

as for next time bring it on

Crazedwraith
November 15th, 2009, 12:10 PM
It was actually the end of the last special. The black precongitive lady who won the lottery a lot said something along the lines of 'and now your song is ending' along with the four knocks thing.

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 12:13 PM
What was the point of WALLE Gadget apart from being a get out clause



Lool! Just realised that robot did look like WALLE. That film was rubbish :)
Anyway, I found the robot funny. The Doctor hates robots :)

Its top speen is 2mph
Not anymore!

Rocket powered robot!

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 12:15 PM
It was actually the end of the last special. The black precongitive lady who won the lottery a lot said something along the lines of 'and now your song is ending' along with the four knocks thing.

Oh yeahh. Thanks for that

Did those Water Alien things actually knock four times though...
Because in the trailer you heard four knocks, but you only heard three in the episode

Sorry for the double post...

Reefgirl
November 15th, 2009, 12:17 PM
Lool! Just realised that robot did look like WALLE. That film was rubbish :)
Anyway, I found the robot funny. The Doctor hates robots :)

Its top speen is 2mph
Not anymore!

Rocket powered robot!

I didn't see the film but I saw the trailer at the cinema and said to my Partner "Oooh look it's Number Five"

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 12:18 PM
I didn't see the film but I saw the trailer at the cinema and said to my Partner "Oooh look it's Number Five"

:confused: I dont get the reference lol

Reefgirl
November 15th, 2009, 01:15 PM
:confused: I dont get the reference lol

You never watched Short Circuit then?

Zarius
November 15th, 2009, 01:21 PM
Thing is, Adelaide's suicide doesnt prevent the altered future, it adds to it. Her grand-daughter will think she was a coward who ran away from life rather than face the reality she lived in. Adelaide lost her purpose in life and felt trapped. The Doctor had damned her.

As a Red Dwarf fan, half of me wanted The Valeyar...erm...Doctor to simply say "Smeg" when Adelaide shot herself, then walk into the TARDIS, not a care in the world, he would rationalize that this wouldnt be the first attempt to change history with his newly realized freedom.

"The laws of time are mine to command...and THEY WILL OBEY ME"

The tease of the four knocks with only three was wonderful, and played again with audiences assuming one thing over another.

Barry Letts got a winner.


The special was okay, at least it was better than Planet of the Dead and that idiotic Cybermen thing some time ago.

Which wasnt idiotic in the slightest.

Reefgirl
November 15th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Here's a thought, concerning the last 2 eps
Do you think the Doctor will be forced to regenerate for his crimes, like Doctor Number 2 was, I know the Ood said he would die but then Donna 'died' sort of

Admiral Mappalazarou
November 15th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Here's a thought, concerning the last 2 eps
Do you think the Doctor will be forced to regenerate for his crimes, like Doctor Number 2 was, I know the Ood said he would die but then Donna 'died' sort of

But by who, the Time Lords are long gone and it was they who forced No. 2 to change. The Ood maybe? I can't see them being that powerful however.

Reefgirl
November 15th, 2009, 01:36 PM
But by who, the Time Lords are long gone and it was they who forced No. 2 to change. The Ood maybe? I can't see them being that powerful however.

Depends on who Timothy Dalton's character turns out to be, he had the look of a high ranking Gallifreyan to me. Maybe The Master

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 01:39 PM
You never watched Short Circuit then?

Nah lol

To Zarius
I kinda got pulled in by the four knocks in the trailer, but i didnt think the Master would appear in this ep. I loled when there was only three.

To the topic of the last two episodes
Apparently the timelords may be in it so if they are, they may force him to regenerate, but i think its unlikely they will be in it
Looks like a good Christmas Special and looking forward to seeing it and the Master again

Kady
November 15th, 2009, 02:08 PM
I wasn't happy with the ending. I though the row (its still a row, even though there is no shouting) he has with woman at the end was very OOC for David Tennants Doctor. Too dark for me. I think he's better when he speaks really fast and is annoying perky and bouncey!!

In fact, my dad, who i forced to watched with me and HATES Dr. Who (he called it "dodgy" before :D), actually said about the row, "That's a bit nasty!!"

After that bit i don't know what happen in those last 2-3 minutes as i missed it as my dad kept interupting me, to tell ME what happened and what he said, despite that fact that it had the friking subtitles!! And with my dad, you can't exactly say, "SHUT UP!!! I'M TRYING TO WATCH IT!!!"

All i saw next was the teaser trailer for the next episode (OMG!!) and i COMPLETELY missed the ending!! AGGHHHHH!!! So now, i'm gonna have to find a transcript or someone to explain the end to me!! I'm not happy!! Maybe someone here can tell me what happen. (in spoilers obviously Please?)

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 02:24 PM
From what i remember of the ending, we see the woman go into her house n draw a gun out, and then we see the Doctor walk to the Tardis and he turns when she shoots herself in the house. All you see is a flash. Then the Doctor realises what hes done and he sees Oad (Think thats wrong) Sigma and sigma just stands there and the Doctor says 'What have i done? Is this it? My death? Is it time'? Then Sigma disappears. Then he goes into the Tardis and just stands there and you hear the bell thing, and he suddenly just says No! and activates the Tardis

Kady
November 15th, 2009, 02:46 PM
From what i remember of the ending, we see the woman go into her house n draw a gun out, and then we see the Doctor walk to the Tardis and he turns when she shoots herself in the house. All you see is a flash. Then the Doctor realises what hes done and he sees Oad (Think thats wrong) Sigma and sigma just stands there and the Doctor says 'What have i done? Is this it? My death? Is it time'? Then Sigma disappears. Then he goes into the Tardis and just stands there and you hear the bell thing, and he suddenly just says No! and activates the Tardis

Thanks for explaining it for me. I understand it now, sort of!! :D

BTW: Anyone else getting cheesed off at the Terminator pop-ups? Its really slowing my laptop down everytime it appears!! Grr!!

beale947
November 15th, 2009, 02:51 PM
That last bit with the the The Time Lord Victorious part is MEANT to be OOC for the doctor. He finally realised that he is the master of time since he is the only Time Lord left. It definatly proves that Time Lords with power like that really are vengeful Demi Gods.

I also think that its a set up in allowing the Doctor to fight the Master on even terms. Both Time Lords, knowing they both have the right to whatever they hell they want, no matter what. But you can't blame the Doctor for snapping after hearing everyone dieing on the base, then the rocket exploding stranding them. HE's lost everyone he cares about and even people who can't save eg. Pompeii and this time he realised "No More". He's turned into the Master.

Doctor: "But your Changing History!"
Master: "I'm a Timelord. I have that right."

However he still has a conscience, and i'm glad that his ego and sence of ominipotence was shot down by Adliey shooting herself and thus proving that time cannot be messed around it without making it slightly worse in some way. Maybe thats while time lords are banned from interferring. Fixed points will always happen even if you interfere, all you will do is end up making it worse for you at the end.

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 02:59 PM
Thanks for explaining it for me. I understand it now, sort of!! :D

BTW: Anyone else getting cheesed off at the Terminator pop-ups? Its really slowing my laptop down everytime it appears!! Grr!!

Thats ok, and yes, the Terminator pop ups are annoying

And to beale947
It was like the Doctor was out of control (is that what OOC is?) and he is realising the power he has, but he comes to his senses when the woman shoots herself because he realises what he has done and what the consequences may be. Also when he sees Ood Sigma, he definately realises what he has done and he thinks he will be punished for it.

That is the difference between the Master and the Doctor. The Master doesnt really care that hes changing the timeline or about the consequences whereas the Doctor does

huntress
November 15th, 2009, 03:23 PM
Mixed feelings about this one....
A story about a doomed Mars colony and an event that the doctor can't and won't change and him stuck in the middle. "Fires of Pompeii" anyone? Yes and it is even mentioned but Pompeii was better, because the doctor was so passive in this one. Fixed point in history in all that. He just looked on, very sorrowful and tried to get away himself. There was quite a bit of pathos and a story that didn't quite deserve that name. It had hints of the X-Files and I would have loved if they had gone into that direction but in the end it was all a bit meh. We never saw what was really going on there and in the end it didn't really matter.

Now to the more interesting bit: the fact that the doctor is badly loosing it. We always saw little glimpses of it and they were frightening, but now he has reached the breaking point and this time there is no one there for him. No Rose, no Martha, no Donna. The doctor we saw at the end in the final bit scared me badly. Timelord Victorious...oh doctor. This could have gone into a really, great and heartbreaking direction but unfortunately the whole story development went to a screeching halt and made a U-Turn when the doctor sees that Ood (WTF?) and becomes afraid of dying. The doctor has never before been afraid of dying, because he always knew that he could simply regenerate but here - he was afraid which makes little sense. He was always comfortable with the fact that he won't live forever and always had a strong dislike for anyone who craved immortality, so why should he be afraid now? It would have been so much better if the doctor had looked at the house, shrugged and kept on walking...TBC :sigh:

Kudos to David Tennant and Lindsay Duncan because they really got the most out of the weak story. It really helps to have some excellent actors around, also the music by Murray Gold especially in the second half blew me away. The very last scene with the contra tenor singing the song of the doctor.....wow. The teaser for the finale made me happy though it held no surprises. Donna, Wilf + Master (who was very blond) = WIN

Story: **
Acting: *****
Music: ****

Overall: *** 1/2 due to the weak story

huntress
November 15th, 2009, 03:24 PM
As a Red Dwarf fan, half of me wanted The Valeyar...erm...Doctor to simply say "Smeg" when Adelaide shot herself, then walk into the TARDIS, not a care in the world, he would rationalize that this wouldnt be the first attempt to change history with his newly realized freedom.



That was EXACTLY what I had hoped would happen but it didn't :(

Teddybrown
November 15th, 2009, 03:47 PM
Mixed feelings about this one....
A story about a doomed Mars colony and an event that the doctor can't and won't change and him stuck in the middle. "Fires of Pompeii" anyone? Yes and it is even mentioned but Pompeii was better, because the doctor was so passive in this one. Fixed point in history in all that. He just looked on, very sorrowful and tried to get away himself. There was quite a bit of pathos and a story that didn't quite deserve that name. It had hints of the X-Files and I would have loved if they had gone into that direction but in the end it was all a bit meh. We never saw what was really going on there and in the end it didn't really matter.

Now to the more interesting bit: the fact that the doctor is badly loosing it. We always saw little glimpses of it and they were frightening, but now he has reached the breaking point and this time there is no one there for him. No Rose, no Martha, no Donna. The doctor we saw at the end in the final bit scared me badly. Timelord Victorious...oh doctor. This could have gone into a really, great and heartbreaking direction but unfortunately the whole story development went to a screeching halt and made a U-Turn when the doctor sees that Ood (WTF?) and becomes afraid of dying. The doctor has never before been afraid of dying, because he always knew that he could simply regenerate but here - he was afraid which makes little sense. He was always comfortable with the fact that he won't live forever and always had a strong dislike for anyone who craved immortality, so why should he be afraid now? It would have been so much better if the doctor had looked at the house, shrugged and kept on walking...TBC :sigh:

Kudos to David Tennant and Lindsay Duncan because they really got the most out of the weak story. It really helps to have some excellent actors around, also the music by Murray Gold especially in the second half blew me away. The very last scene with the contra tenor singing the song of the doctor.....wow. The teaser for the finale made me happy though it held no surprises. Donna, Wilf + Master (who was very blond) = WIN

Story: **
Acting: *****
Music: ****

Overall: *** 1/2 due to the weak story

I agree with you in the fact that it was a bit like Fires Of Pompeii because of the whole fixed point in time and the fact that even though he saw people dying and had Donna begging him to go back and help them, he only saved four people, but here he actually changed the timeline by saving these 3 people, but this time he made the choice to do it, even without anyone begging him. He also realises he has the power to change time if he wanted to because there was no one left to punish him.

On your point about the Doctor being scared of death, after his little tyrade about being the victorious timelord and that he could create his own laws in time (I have to agree with you that the Doctors attitude was rather scary then) and after the woman shot herself, he realised what he had done and the consequences it could have in the world, and he probably saw how mad he was going, and when he saw Ood Sigma, it dawned on him how bad what he had done was, and he believed he was going to be punished for it and that is why he seemed scared off his death because he thought that would be his punishment. But when he realised it wasnt, he decided to do something about it.

I agree with you about the Christmas Special though in that it looks to be very good and I am also looking forward to seeing Donna, Wilf and the Master back.
We also apparently see Rose, but only in flashbacks

Also, who else thought twice before turning on a tap after this episode? lol

valen_sinclair
November 15th, 2009, 11:54 PM
The doctor has never before been afraid of dying, because he always knew that he could simply regenerate but here - he was afraid which makes little sense. He was always comfortable with the fact that he won't live forever and always had a strong dislike for anyone who craved immortality, so why should he be afraid now? It would have been so much better if the doctor had looked at the house, shrugged and kept on walking...TBC :sigh:



Yes the Doctor has never been afraid of dying before, but then he knows now that he is running out of regenerations, so he knows that his time as an entity is coming to an end, and of course he is scared.
People saying that the end of WoM was OOC I think are wrong, the Doctor has always had a dark side to him since Hartnell, and to be fair even Tennant has shown glimpses of his dark side in the past again in the aforementioned fires of pompeii.
But I am of the opinon that Ood Sigma didn't make him realize what he had done, he had a moment of self doubt, but the whole "NO!" at the end makes me believe that he went back to being darker and more determined to change certain fixed points.
We know the time war is a fixed point but Dalek Caan changed that when he became more than a dalek, why not the Doctor as well.
I can't remember who said that maybe the Doctor is forced to regenerate to pay for his crimes by the timelords, well maybe he ventures to stop the timewar and the destruction of his people and the timelords punish him for that.
Either way I enjoyed The Waters of Mars, it was much more enjoyable than Planet of the Dead of the Christmas special from last year which were both very lucklustre.

Reefgirl
November 16th, 2009, 12:04 AM
BTW: Anyone else getting cheesed off at the Terminator pop-ups? Its really slowing my laptop down everytime it appears!! Grr!!

Me, everytime I roll my mouse to turn the browser off or go to the browser bar it pop's up, ****ing annoying

valen_sinclair
November 16th, 2009, 12:10 AM
Me, everytime I roll my mouse to turn the browser off or go to the browser bar it pop's up, ****ing annoying

pop up blocker anyone. ;)

Kidwizz
November 16th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Wow... i thought it was an EPIC episode. I loved that ending, it shows that all time lords have that within them, it just took ahwile for the dr to snap.

Aerilon
November 16th, 2009, 02:02 AM
To be honest, the first 45 minutes of this episode seemed a waste. We was never told why the Doctor even went to Mars in the first place, he just turned up there, not knowing the date or anything. It was only the last 15 minutes that we actually got something decent out of it, that being, a darker Doctor.

Also, in regards to more timelords in End of Time, I think not. If there were other timelords alive, surely they would have stepped in on Mars to preserve the 'locked moment'. That is the job of a timelord is it not?

huntress
November 16th, 2009, 02:54 AM
Also, in regards to more timelords in End of Time, I think not. If there were other timelords alive, surely they would have stepped in on Mars to preserve the 'locked moment'. That is the job of a timelord is it not?

No. Not necessarily. I hope the whole Ood incident was not enough to scare the doctor off but that he will become truly megalomaniac and whatever he does then, in his "I couldn't care less about the consequences and laws of time" mood triggers of the return of the timelords.

wise one
November 16th, 2009, 05:51 AM
No. Not necessarily. I hope the whole Ood incident was not enough to scare the doctor off but that he will become truly megalomaniac and whatever he does then, in his "I couldn't care less about the consequences and laws of time" mood triggers of the return of the timelords.

maybe his actions ripple through time and the timelord notices certain events that should of happened but were altered because they have a fixed point of events dont mess with it diary???? but that being said they would done they same for the master when he took over earth with the toclafane

Linda06
November 16th, 2009, 06:09 AM
Okay, fire doesn't burn without oxygen, right? So I don't understand why the fire kept on burning after the ship exploded without oxygen :confused: Wouldn't it have burned itself out pretty much straight away?

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 06:12 AM
Okay, fire doesn't burn without oxygen, right? So I don't understand why the fire kept on burning after the ship exploded without oxygen :confused: Wouldn't it have burned itself out pretty much straight away?

Liquid Oxygen is Rocket Fuel isn't it?

Linda06
November 16th, 2009, 06:43 AM
Liquid Oxygen is Rocket Fuel isn't it?

I don't know, but I thought if you took oxygen out of a room say, then the fire would pretty much burn out pretty quickly *shrugs* Or I may be thinking too much :eek:

The Prophet
November 16th, 2009, 07:11 AM
I don't know, but I thought if you took oxygen out of a room say, then the fire would pretty much burn out pretty quickly *shrugs* Or I may be thinking too much :eek:

I think rocket fuel can burn for quite a while, seeing as it's a continual supply of oxygen.

Depends how much rocket fuel there is, I guess.

Linda06
November 16th, 2009, 07:13 AM
I think rocket fuel can burn for quite a while, seeing as it's a continual supply of oxygen.

Depends how much rocket fuel there is, I guess.

Oh right. Well that would explain why the fire was still burning.

I really should stop thinking so much, I just end up confusing myself :S

huntress
November 16th, 2009, 09:43 AM
I wondered about that too at first but then rembered that this is just a normal combustion of rocket fuel.

You can read more about rocket fuel here : http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1995/environ/ENV165.HTM

DigiFluid
November 16th, 2009, 09:50 AM
I liked it. Not the greatest, but I liked it.

One thing I really didn't like was the Dalek bit. The whole plan of the Daleks in that episode was to change the whole of creation, why on Earth would the Dalek just take off? That just doesn't make any sense. To me, it's just another case of RTD trying to cram in Daleks wherever he can, whether he should or not.

But counter to what some people in here are saying, I actually quite liked the ending. I think it's kind of neat that the timeline was shown as self-correcting. Certainly, it seems to show that while there are fixed points in history, the Doctor isn't omnipotent enough to fully and completely understand them. Yes he's a Time Lord; but he's also just a man, not a god. He doesn't know everything.

Pitry
November 16th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Ending, well, was obvious, the same as the Pompey episode. I had hoped he had walked away while hearing the people inside die, but I guess that's too dark for Doctor Who.


THe ending was actually the exact opposite from Pompeii. In Pompeii he was a responsible adult who knew what he was supposed to do and did it. In this he was an insane omnipotent egomaniac who's finally lost the last grip he had on reality.

In other words, I loved it to bits.

Replicator Todd
November 16th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Oh my Gosh. Just finished watching through the web. Best Who Special I have seen. Fantastic episode! I liked seeing The Doctor heading into well, madness, after everything he has been through I am surprised he stayed together for so long. This is the first time in an extremely long time since a TV show has caused my heart to race and left me breathless. The last 20 minutes were just spectacular.

creed462
November 16th, 2009, 02:11 PM
While it was in the Doctor's character to save them, I don't think the doctor would turn that arrogant. He should have just took them somewhere else so that they died to earth.

Flyboy
November 16th, 2009, 02:13 PM
While it was in the Doctor's character to save them, I don't think the doctor would turn that arrogant. He should have just took them somewhere else so that they died to earth.
It's been a common theme of Classic Doctor Who that a timelord who gains immortality or ultimate power becomes a vengeful God. Absolute power corrupting absolutely. The Doctor has finally been corrupted, even if that means doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

He has more in common with the Master than one would think.

Darren
November 16th, 2009, 02:32 PM
I liked the ep a lot, though I wanted to see Gadget blowed up real good throughout the entire hour. Davies said in Confidential that he was supposed to be a bit over-the-top annoying (to grown-ups), though.

The absolute power corrupting story is a fantastic way to end the Tenth Doctor's story, IMO. He's been so likeable and level-headed, but always with a darker side to him (since the "no second chances" moment after the duel in "The Christmas Invasion"). He's one of the most powerful beings in the universe, whose personality completely changes every few years. You're just happy that "he's on our side." But what if he decides the laws of time no longer apply to him?

That's where he goes here, apparently because of the prophecy of his impending death. It's just brilliant, and the last shot of the episode seems to indicate that he is running away from his destiny. I hope he goes even darker in the next one, and stays there a bit.

At the end of the day, this is the story of what the Doctor would be like without a companion. Rose, Martha, Donna -- they all told him that he shouldn't be alone, that despite his protestations he needed someone. Donna saw him go genocidal in "The Runaway Bride," and told him at the end, "I think you need someone to stop you sometimes." But everyone he brings on board and gets attached to, he loses, so the Doctor has convinced himself that he's a loner.

He's not -- he does need someone to ground him. And I think "The Waters of Mars" works (hopefully leading into much more in "The End of Time") because it shows what he's capable of becoming without a companion. The speeches about "the laws of time will obey me" and the "Time Lord Victorious" aren't supposed to make you cheer for the super-powered hero saving the day -- they're supposed to scare the crap out of you.

Pitry
November 16th, 2009, 04:16 PM
I liked the ep a lot, though I wanted to see Gadget blowed up real good throughout the entire hour. Davies said in Confidential that he was supposed to be a bit over-the-top annoying (to grown-ups), though.

The absolute power corrupting story is a fantastic way to end the Tenth Doctor's story, IMO. He's been so likeable and level-headed, but always with a darker side to him (since the "no second chances" moment after the duel in "The Christmas Invasion"). He's one of the most powerful beings in the universe, whose personality completely changes every few years. You're just happy that "he's on our side." But what if he decides the laws of time no longer apply to him?

That's where he goes here, apparently because of the prophecy of his impending death. It's just brilliant, and the last shot of the episode seems to indicate that he is running away from his destiny. I hope he goes even darker in the next one, and stays there a bit.

At the end of the day, this is the story of what the Doctor would be like without a companion. Rose, Martha, Donna -- they all told him that he shouldn't be alone, that despite his protestations he needed someone. Donna saw him go genocidal in "The Runaway Bride," and told him at the end, "I think you need someone to stop you sometimes." But everyone he brings on board and gets attached to, he loses, so the Doctor has convinced himself that he's a loner.

He's not -- he does need someone to ground him. And I think "The Waters of Mars" works (hopefully leading into much more in "The End of Time") because it shows what he's capable of becoming without a companion. The speeches about "the laws of time will obey me" and the "Time Lord Victorious" aren't supposed to make you cheer for the super-powered hero saving the day -- they're supposed to scare the crap out of you.

Well put.

...with the exception of one thing.

GADGET GADGET!

Replicator Todd
November 16th, 2009, 04:44 PM
The speeches about "the laws of time will obey me" and the "Time Lord Victorious" aren't supposed to make you cheer for the super-powered hero saving the day -- they're supposed to scare the crap out of you.
And they do, and they do it well. I really do hope to see more of this side of The Doctor in the final specials.

Pharaoh Atem
November 16th, 2009, 08:05 PM
i'm nearly done watching this and i have to say this is nothing like i thought it would be.....

great music,action storytelling acting

totally awesome

akren
November 17th, 2009, 06:11 AM
I liked it. Not the greatest, but I liked it.

One thing I really didn't like was the Dalek bit. The whole plan of the Daleks in that episode was to change the whole of creation, why on Earth would the Dalek just take off? That just doesn't make any sense. To me, it's just another case of RTD trying to cram in Daleks wherever he can, whether he should or not.

But counter to what some people in here are saying, I actually quite liked the ending. I think it's kind of neat that the timeline was shown as self-correcting. Certainly, it seems to show that while there are fixed points in history, the Doctor isn't omnipotent enough to fully and completely understand them. Yes he's a Time Lord; but he's also just a man, not a god. He doesn't know everything.

I think the Dalek took off due to the recall order being issued b the Supreme Dalek for all Daleks to return to the Crucible so they could detonate the reality bomb & wipe out all the other...inferior life forms. ;)

I absolutely loved the Doctor going all dark, desperate & egotistically wacko during this ep. :D

The fact he screams to the entire universe that he is the last of the Timelords, as & as the last, 'the laws of time will obey me' & that he is the 'Timelord Victoreous' only to have the timeline self-correct & ensure that all whom needed to die, did die (as it was a fixed moment in time) shows just how helpless & limited even Timelords can be when attempting to stop something that always has to happen in the timeline from happening, whether they like it or not. :P

It foreshadows his own demise & brings into question his own mortality; which I think is why he ends up doing what he does. The fact that I have a sneaking supicision that his being killed & needing to regenerate into his next incarnation is a fixed point in the timeline means no matter how much the Doctor tries to stop it, it will always happen, no matter what.

Possible Spoilers for 'End of Time (Christmas 2009 Special) & beyound:


I think it's going to be the Master that kills hims & forces him to regenerate into his next incarnation. I also think the Master will eventually share his secret to his ability to constantly regenerate/live (with or without the High Council's help) in order to have the Doctor as a foe (& to continue the series).

Teddybrown
November 17th, 2009, 06:36 AM
I think the Dalek took off due to the recall order being issued b the Supreme Dalek for all Daleks to return to the Crucible so they could detonate the reality bomb & wipe out all the other...inferior life forms. ;)

I absolutely loved the Doctor going all dark, desperate & egotistically wacko during this ep. :D

The fact he screams to the entire universe that he is the last of the Timelords, as & as the last, 'the laws of time will obey me' & that he is the 'Timelord Victoreous' only to have the timeline self-correct & ensure that all whom needed to die, did die (as it was a fixed moment in time) shows just how helpless & limited even Timelords can be when attempting to stop something that always has to happen in the timeline from happening, whether they like it or not. :P

It foreshadows his own demise & brings into question his own mortality; which I think is why he ends up doing what he does. The fact that I have a sneaking supicision that his being killed & needing to regenerate into his next incarnation is a fixed point in the timeline means no matter how much the Doctor tries to stop it, it will always happen, no matter what.

Possible Spoilers for 'End of Time (Christmas 2009 Special) & beyound:


I think it's going to be the Master that kills hims & forces him to regenerate into his next incarnation. I also think the Master will eventually share his secret to his ability to constantly regenerate/live (with or without the High Council's help) in order to have the Doctor as a foe (& to continue the series).


Didnt two of the people who were meant to die survive?
The two who ran off at the end?
Forgive me if Im wrong

And to the spoiler bit, we will have to wait and see.
Well, i will because im going to try and keep away from spoilers
I felt knowing how the episode ended and who survived diminished the episode a bit

But like everyone else is saying, great episode and cant wait for the Christmas Special and David Tennants maybe last episode :(
I say maybe because I hope he will return in maybe flashbacks and apparently
he may do something for the anniversary hopefully because isnt there a special anniversary in 2013 or something, or I am just being completely wrong?

pbellosom
November 17th, 2009, 07:56 AM
he may do something for the anniversary hopefully because isnt there a special anniversary in 2013 or something, or I am just being completely wrong?

It's the fiftieth anniversary isn't it? I'm expecting something amazing already. Especially if Moffat is still show runner.

Pharaoh Atem
November 17th, 2009, 08:03 AM
Doctor who "water on mars was FANTASTIC i finished watching it :D very cool to see the doctor finally put his foot down and realize that the war is over and he truly is the final timelord

Teddybrown
November 17th, 2009, 08:20 AM
It's the fiftieth anniversary isn't it? I'm expecting something amazing already. Especially if Moffat is still show runner.

Yeah, its something like that. I am also anticiapting something thats going to be awesome because if it is its 50th anniversary, then what better way to celebrate than an epid episode of Doctor Who

Moffats done some good episodes so it will probabl be good if its him, but if its someone else, hopefully they produce something epic :)

Maybe a movie? :)

Blue Shadowdancer
November 17th, 2009, 08:28 AM
And I think "The Waters of Mars" works (hopefully leading into much more in "The End of Time") because it shows what he's capable of becoming without a companion. The speeches about "the laws of time will obey me" and the "Time Lord Victorious" aren't supposed to make you cheer for the super-powered hero saving the day -- they're supposed to scare the crap out of you.

They did. I was sitting there watching, and absolutely terrified of the Doctor, and what he might do. Amazingly dark. A bit like the climax of 'Children of Earth', and for some of the same reasons.

Reefgirl
November 17th, 2009, 10:47 AM
It's been a common theme of Classic Doctor Who that a timelord who gains immortality or ultimate power becomes a vengeful God. Absolute power corrupting absolutely. The Doctor has finally been corrupted, even if that means doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

He has more in common with the Master than one would think.

I can't green you because I've used too many (How? I've been gone for over 6 months) so have an unofficial one :D

Reefgirl
November 17th, 2009, 10:48 AM
Maybe a movie? :)
Oh God I hope not, Dr Who movies have a horrible habit of falling on their collective arse's

Teddybrown
November 17th, 2009, 12:14 PM
Oh God I hope not, Dr Who movies have a horrible habit of falling on their collective arse's

I havent seen a Doctor Who movie before so dunno what they like
Maybe in this day and era, what with CGI and technology as they are, they could produce a really good one

Tardis
November 17th, 2009, 01:10 PM
I think we are definitely seeing the Doctor becoming unhinged. It also shows that the Companions he has had over the years have been more than mere appendages or hangers on. They are and have been vital for keeping the Doctor grounded. With the descent of the Doctor into megalomania it raises the question of whether we might be seeing a role reversal in the End of Time.

It is quite possible that we may see the Master trying to preserve the timeline against the Doctor gone mad.

Teddybrown
November 17th, 2009, 01:16 PM
I think we are definitely seeing the Doctor becoming unhinged. It also shows that the Companions he has had over the years have been more than mere appendages or hangers on. They are and have been vital for keeping the Doctor grounded. With the descent of the Doctor into megalomania it raises the question of whether we might be seeing a role reversal in the End of Time.

It is quite possible that we may see the Master trying to preserve the timeline against the Doctor gone mad.

You could be right about the Master and I think that would be interesting to see.

I agree with you about the companions being important in keeping the Doctor Timelord sane, because without a companion, you can definately see a different side to him. He nearly lost it without a companion in Runaway Bride but Donna bought him back. We may have only seen the beginning of what he is now capable off in his new frame of mind and I think End of Time will be a very good, interesting episode and a brilliant finale for David Tennant...

Replicator Todd
November 17th, 2009, 06:55 PM
I think we are definitely seeing the Doctor becoming unhinged. It also shows that the Companions he has had over the years have been more than mere appendages or hangers on. They are and have been vital for keeping the Doctor grounded. With the descent of the Doctor into megalomania it raises the question of whether we might be seeing a role reversal in the End of Time.

It is quite possible that we may see the Master trying to preserve the timeline against the Doctor gone mad.

I'd love that! A "good" Master.

kiwigater
November 18th, 2009, 11:44 PM
I completely agree with Darren's assessment! :D
I know "Egomaniacal" Doctor is supposed to be scary - what annoys me is two things (er, maybe I missed the answers).
1. Did they ever really address what the water monsters were? What were they calling out of the ice? Was the Doctor serious about the whole "Old Martian" thing?? :confused:

and

2. Why the heck would he take them HOME, to their own time as well as their own place? Is that part of his newfound arrogance? The mysterious and instant reappearance of the 3 of them only causes lots and LOTS of questions. Same for Brooke - if she honestly thinks that her survival will alter her grandaughters timeline and she's willing to kill herself to resurrect it surely she's intelligent enough to realise that killing herself in HER OWN LIVING ROOM is more likely to have the opposite effect? :confused:

I dunno!
Overall I enjoyed it, although the Doctor spent far too much time standing around being still and mournful for the first 40 mins. I liked that he walked the line towards the dark side, obviously he would lose his central appeal if he stayed there tho :p

Oh, and the trailer on the end for the next one - too much spoilage! I didn't need to know those people would be back :S Everyone know it's DT's last ep, they could afford not to show anything and would STILL have everyone flocking to it!

Teddybrown
November 19th, 2009, 01:32 AM
I completely agree with Darren's assessment! :D
I know "Egomaniacal" Doctor is supposed to be scary - what annoys me is two things (er, maybe I missed the answers).
1. Did they ever really address what the water monsters were? What were they calling out of the ice? Was the Doctor serious about the whole "Old Martian" thing?? :confused:
and

2. Why the heck would he take them HOME, to their own time as well as their own place? Is that part of his newfound arrogance? The mysterious and instant reappearance of the 3 of them only causes lots and LOTS of questions. Same for Brooke - if she honestly thinks that her survival will alter her grandaughters timeline and she's willing to kill herself to resurrect it surely she's intelligent enough to realise that killing herself in HER OWN LIVING ROOM is more likely to have the opposite effect? :confused:

I dunno!
Overall I enjoyed it, although the Doctor spent far too much time standing around being still and mournful for the first 40 mins. I liked that he walked the line towards the dark side, obviously he would lose his central appeal if he stayed there tho :p

Oh, and the trailer on the end for the next one - too much spoilage! I didn't need to know those people would be back :S Everyone know it's DT's last ep, they could afford not to show anything and would STILL have everyone flocking to it!

Thats the only bit that kind of annoyed me lol, that they didnt really tell us who the aliens were and what was under the ice

Other than that as i have said, good episode

Flyboy
November 19th, 2009, 02:25 AM
Thats the only bit that kind of annoyed me lol, that they didnt really tell us who the aliens were and what was under the ice

Other than that as i have said, good episode
That's because realistically, the water aliens were unimportant.

Teddybrown
November 19th, 2009, 02:41 AM
That's because realistically, the water aliens were unimportant.

Yeah suppose
Would have been nice to know though :)

Reefgirl
November 19th, 2009, 05:31 AM
I havent seen a Doctor Who movie before so dunno what they like
Maybe in this day and era, what with CGI and technology as they are, they could produce a really good one
It's not the CGI that's the problem, it's the duff scripts and the suspect acting that was the problems

uknesvuinng
November 19th, 2009, 06:01 AM
That's because realistically, the water aliens were unimportant.

That was really the biggest problem with this episode. The entire story served no purpose but to give the Doctor the opportunity to become a megalomaniac. And while that character development was great, the rest of the story shouldn't have been given such a weak treatment in the process. The water was just some generic monster that served as the reason the team had to blow themselves up.

huntress
November 19th, 2009, 06:39 AM
It's not the CGI that's the problem, it's the duff scripts and the suspect acting that was the problems

Word! :( Though Lindsay Duncan was wonderful. She is a great actress and it was too bad that her talent was wasted on such a bad script.

DigiFluid
November 19th, 2009, 06:52 AM
1. Did they ever really address what the water monsters were? What were they calling out of the ice? Was the Doctor serious about the whole "Old Martian" thing?? :confused:
I should think so. The Ice Warriors were from Mars, and he was theorizing that they were the ones responsible for trapping the water in a glacier. Old Martian, I imagine, is an old dialect of the Ice Warriors and it makes sense that the water would recognize it if it was the Ice Warriors who imprisoned them in the distant past.

Aerilon
November 19th, 2009, 08:19 AM
Who are these 'Ice Warriors'?

Teddybrown
November 19th, 2009, 08:27 AM
Who are these 'Ice Warriors'?

They are from the old Doctor Who series

DigiFluid
November 19th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Who are these 'Ice Warriors'?
They made about four appearances in old Who, lizard people from Mars who for some reason thrive in cold environments. In their first couple appearances, they were villains. In their later appearances, they were reasonable members of the galactic council (or something like that) who provided peacekeeping troops at the council's decision.

Teddybrown
November 19th, 2009, 02:31 PM
They made about four appearances in old Who, lizard people from Mars who for some reason thrive in cold environments. In their first couple appearances, they were villains. In their later appearances, they were reasonable members of the galactic council (or something like that) who provided peacekeeping troops at the council's decision.

Your explanations better :)

Pitry
November 20th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Thats the only bit that kind of annoyed me lol, that they didnt really tell us who the aliens were and what was under the ice

Other than that as i have said, good episode

Nah, it probably would have slowed down the episode.


It's not the CGI that's the problem, it's the duff scripts and the suspect acting that was the problems

while i generally disagree, RTD said it was originally CGI monsters but they had to do a rewrite cos they realised they cant afford them.


That was really the biggest problem with this episode. The entire story served no purpose but to give the Doctor the opportunity to become a megalomaniac. And while that character development was great, the rest of the story shouldn't have been given such a weak treatment in the process. The water was just some generic monster that served as the reason the team had to blow themselves up.

I dunno - it depends on what the episode is about. Some episodes are fun alien of the week romp. Waters of Mars was an episode meant to finally unhinge the Doctor. The aliens were th mcguffin here, why waste time on them? that's not the story they were interested in telling.

Reefgirl
November 20th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Word! :( Though Lindsay Duncan was wonderful. She is a great actress and it was too bad that her talent was wasted on such a bad script.

I was actually talking about the 3 Dr Who movies there has been so far

Reefgirl
November 20th, 2009, 12:40 PM
while i generally disagree, RTD said it was originally CGI monsters but they had to do a rewrite cos they realised they cant afford them.

Again I was talking about the 3 Dr Who ovies there has been so far

Matt G
November 20th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Well...

1. Liked the viewing of the character's obituries at the beginning.

2. Having said that, why didn't the Doctor just go when he had the chance?

3. Flood aliens were suitably freaky.

4. In theory didn't have a problem with what the Doctor did. Let's face it he's always been a cocky git and he was doing this for the right reasons and I'll always have sympathy with someone who does something for the right reasons.

He got a little bit too cocky this time though and we'll have to see what the consequences are.

Certainly haven't seen a Who ep quite like this before - very good! :)

timdalton007
November 21st, 2009, 11:27 AM
Once in a while your favorite TV series will surprise you. I remember liking but not being blown away by The Next Doctor and being utterly disappointed by Planet Of The Dead. So I wasn't sure what to make of the next special Waters Of Mars, especially with it seemingly delayed to the point of being an afterthought to what promises to be an epic finale to the tenth Doctor era. So imagine my surprise upon finally seeing Waters Of Mars and discovering that not only was it a major improvement over the two previous specials but that here was a story featuring everything that makes Doctor Who great was in it: action, fine acting, horror and yet it being a personal tale at the same time.

David Tennant turns in his best performance since Human Nature/Family Of Blood. Here we see a tenth Doctor like we have never seen before on a roller coaster ride of emotions. We first see a Doctor thrilled by adventure as he always has before realizing he's in the wrong place at the wrong time and trying futilely to not get involved. Then we see something unexpected during an incredible eleven or twelves minutes with a Doctor who throws caution to the wind and soon learns the price of doing so. Tennant's performance throughout all this is nothing short of one word: extraordinary. It's a performance that hits all the acting notes beautifully and may well be Tennant's best performance in the role.

There's also a fine supporting cast as well. Lindsay Duncan plays base commander Adelaide Brooke, who in a way becomes a one-off companion of sorts. Yet she is far more then just that though. In just an hour she becomes a full fledged character with a back-story and a character arc as well. Brooke is a pioneer who finds herself caught up in a crisis with a man who knows what is about to happen and, in the end, will be utterly appalled by the actions he will take. Duncan plays the role well as she shares some fine scenes with Tennant during the back half of the special, especially during one of the most emotional scenes the New Series has yet served to its audience. Duncan was a perfect choice for the role and her presence helps to elevate the special's quality. There's also a good supporting cast as well in the form of base members including Peter O'Brien as Ed, Alan Ruscoe as Andy, Sharon Duncan Brewster as Maggie and Gemma Chan as Mia Bennett. Together they make a fine supporting cast.

There's also some fine work behind the camera as well. There is some fantastic make-up and effects work in regards to the villains of the special which make them, next to the stone angels from Blink, perhaps the scariest thing to have been used in the New Series, especially in the revealing of the first one which made he jump out of my seat (literally). The base is well realized both in the form of the sets interiors (including some fine location work) and the well done CGI exterior as well. There's also a really well done version of the Martian surface as well which is almost convincing, especially with the Doctor walking on it. Then there's the robot Gadget as well which is almost a character rather then a prop. Plus there's the music of Murray Gold that, especially in the last eleven or twelve minutes, shows once again the power of a Doctor Who score. To top it all off there's the ever fantastic direction of Graeme Harper who once again proves himself to be the best director on the New Series by walking the tightrope of action, emotion, horror and suspense without ever falling off. Fine work by all indeed.

Which brings us to the script. While Russel T. Davies previous collaboration with Gareth Roberts turned out to be something of a dud, his collaboration with Phil Ford proves to be among the better scripts of the New Series. Waters Of Mars takes the classic Doctor Who formula of base under siege and feeds into that formula action sequences, horror, sacrifices and the question at the heart of any time travel series: if you knew what was to happen and could change it, should you? It is that last question that occupies the Doctor throughout the special and that ultimately leads to a powerful finale that answers that question all too painfully. The script does what any great Doctor Who story should do: be exciting, horrifying and yet personal.

Waters Of Mars qualifies as one of the finest stories of the New Series. It starts with fine performances from David Tennant, Lindsay Duncan and the supporting cast. It continues on into the production values including make-up, special effects, the CGI rendering of the base, the score and more of the fantastic direction of Graeme Harper. Then there's the script from Russel T. Davies and Phil Ford that hits all the right notes of action, horror, suspense and yet remaining a personal tale as well. Waters Of Mars ranks with Human Nature/Family Of Blood, Blink and Dalek as amongst the best stories to come out of the New Series and is a fine example of what Doctor Who is at its best.

timdalton007

ShadowMaat
November 24th, 2009, 06:50 AM
The plot of the episode was a bit of a letdown. Random unknown aliens being all random and unknowable, wanting to take over Earth for all of its water... even though they seem to be able to create water on their own pretty well. (get it? well? water in a well? ahaha, I'm so funny...)

There was also zero character development. We get a bit about the commander lady, but the others... I think I got more from reading their obits than I did from what was onscreen. Made it easier to cope with their deaths cuz I didn't know them well enough to care.

As for Darkside Doctor... that was awesome and creepy and disturbing. At least until they ruined it with the Ood of Christmas Future. :rolleyes: Still, watching the Doctor go all megalomanic and Master-like was awesome, in a hide-under-the-covers kinda way.

Speaking of the Master, I know he went all crazy and evil a long, long time ago, but I can't help wondering if at least part of the reason he became what he became is because he never had any Companions. He made a point of mentioning his lack of Companionship the last time we saw him (and I'm not sure how much Lucy counts) and the Doctor's Companions have mentioned from time to time that he needs them to keep him "human," well, now we know what happens when the Doctor spends too much time on his own. *shiver*

Can't wait for the 2-part special!

[BTW, what the frak is with having two discussion threads for this? I moved my post from the other one to here since this seems to be more discussion oriented despite the title of the other thread, but seriously... grr]

nx01a
November 24th, 2009, 02:05 PM
Wow.
One of my favourite episodes.
Wow.

>My only complaint is about the reasoning of the aliens in wanting Earth's water.
>The Doctor's finally crossed the line. 'Little people', choosing to potentially unhinge all of time for his own convenience and well-being, making a companion commit suicide to undo his damage to the timeline, running through time to escape HIS fate... I'm disturbed and impressed and eagerly awaiting the xmas and new doctor... I mean, New Year specials.

Ian-S
December 1st, 2009, 01:26 PM
he didn't make her commit suicide, she choose to in order to preserve the timeline, she could have taken the selfish route and not done it but her grandaughter might not have manned the starship then, of course committing suicide didn't guarantee she'll still do that, a big continuity error if you ask me.

We got a brief glimpse on Children in Need of End of Time, looks quiet good.

gateship15
December 6th, 2009, 09:42 PM
this episode was ok. i two didn't like we didn't find out what the aliens are or what was under the ice. the doctor went a little crazy at the end.

the next episode looks good i can't wait to watch it.

Coco Pops
December 7th, 2009, 03:52 PM
OMG that was brilliant.............. We just had this in Australia and oooh wow. Brilliant acting by David Tennant.

Some random thoughts below because I've watched the show a few times, and my thoughts have changed on this....

All that build up and hype over Adelaide... "The cleverest companion the Doctor has ever had" Bah.....

And what do we get she is only in this episode and then at the end commits suicide. Wonderful. NOT.

A very dark ending, and darkish story for Dr. Who tonight. But OMG it was fun, and to see the Doctor step almost into the Dark Side..... Brilliant.........

I must admit it was rather eerie and cool to see the Doctor say "The laws of time are mine and they will obey me and that just sent chills up my spine....... It's not very Doctorish. But it is very cool.

Still don't get all the hype the BBC did over Adelaide. "cleverest companion"
yet she tops herself..

I watched again. I must say I really liked the Doctor going all dark... DT was just brilliant acting that part and I wonder if that was the Doctor's true nature surfacing.

What if they threw a twist our way and had him going all dark and the Master breifly becoming like the Doctor........

Coco Pops
December 7th, 2009, 04:15 PM
I liked it. Not the greatest, but I liked it.

One thing I really didn't like was the Dalek bit. The whole plan of the Daleks in that episode was to change the whole of creation, why on Earth would the Dalek just take off? That just doesn't make any sense. To me, it's just another case of RTD trying to cram in Daleks wherever he can, whether he should or not.




That really annoyed me too..... It spends forever staring at her then just flies off....

And I HATED THAT STUPID ROBOT.....

"Gadget Gadget" Oh please die robot die. And what did the Doctor take that in the TARDIS to keep?

gateship15
December 7th, 2009, 05:22 PM
i didn't like what happens in the end it was just sad. but the doctor saved her when he wasn't meant to so she wanted to put it right

spinny magee
December 12th, 2009, 11:19 PM
Well.....wasn't fantastic but it wasn't bad, hell of a lot better then the last two.

Next special(Tennants last) looks good. But I can't watch Doctor Who without him, i'll watch one ep with Matt White or w.e his name is in it. Then I shall decide whether to watch.

Sounds of things I probably won't be watching it after this.

spinny magee
December 12th, 2009, 11:20 PM
That really annoyed me too..... It spends forever staring at her then just flies off....

And I HATED THAT STUPID ROBOT.....

"Gadget Gadget" Oh please die robot die. And what did the Doctor take that in the TARDIS to keep?

I too hate that Robot, hopefully it will cark it in "The End of time"

gateship15
December 12th, 2009, 11:44 PM
i think it died in the end and he just left it there on earth the next one does look good

Coco Pops
December 13th, 2009, 04:33 AM
Why would you abandon Dr. Who just because of a change of actor. That's happened through the shows entire lifetime... Nothing new there.

TryWhistlingThis
December 13th, 2009, 05:28 AM
I saw this when it was on the ABC the other week, so this is my belated review:

WOW. Spooky stuff. The Doctor is now the villain and actually has got to a point where he needs to be killed. I've never seen Doctor Who like this. Tennant's brilliance really resonated here, especially in the final 15 minutes. It also raises a whole stack of questions about Earth's events.

How do we know that the crew weren't actually meant to live? Think of it this way: the Doctor travels to a time period, simply reads the article on the death of the Bowie Space Station members and perceives their deaths as unfortunate. Yet, in reality, it was his misinterpretation of the articles that drove him to act in the way he did and became the actual cause of death. This was something that was vaguely alluded to in the Pompeii episode.

This was so good. I loved it. If I were to do an edit to the episode: remove the dalek. Other than that, bloody good! The make-up, CGI, soundtrack, performances. I can't wait and totally satisfied I stayed spoiler free.

I think the best way to sum up with this episode would be to provide a quote from Dark Knight:

"You either die as the hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain".

So glad this show went there. THANK YOU RTD!!!

gateship15
December 13th, 2009, 03:33 PM
i agree with that. i think this episode and pompeii episode show the effects what the doctor is doing has. it also shows that he can be as much a cause as a help. i love the doctors dark side it shows that everything the daleks said go to him as has all the death. i can't wait to see the new actor take his place and see how good his at the doctors role

Coco Pops
December 18th, 2009, 02:39 AM
I'm more wondering how the Robot was able to open the TARDIS since it's been
established that only PEOPLE that the Doctor deems worthy can have a key and
open the ship. Now how did he enable that for the robot. It has no DNA and
I thought the TARDIS needed some kind of DNA fusion to let you open the
doors.

The Doctor must have also had a case of amnesia because he could have clicked his fingers and the doors would have opened.

Coco Pops
December 18th, 2009, 04:47 AM
And now for a crazy idea

"Crazy fan theory"

Maybe the other Doctor that lives with Rose instantaneously swaps places with the real Doctor on Mars and that explains his arrogant behaviour.

gateship15
December 18th, 2009, 10:08 AM
lol i don't know why it was able to open the doors maybe the tardis knew the doctor was in danger and this once let the robot open the ship. lol i don't think roses doctor changed places i think he just had a break down or something lol. i guess i would go nuts once in awhile if it was me who saw friends die,my world destroyed and the friends that i did have leaving me. also remember he does become different when he doesn't have a companion to stop him.

Replicator Todd
December 18th, 2009, 10:49 AM
And now for a crazy idea

"Crazy fan theory"

Maybe the other Doctor that lives with Rose instantaneously swaps places with the real Doctor on Mars and that explains his arrogant behaviour.

It could work....maybe.....slightly......ok definitely not.

gateship15
December 18th, 2009, 11:16 AM
lol

ruach
December 20th, 2009, 07:13 AM
Lool! Just realised that robot did look like WALLE. That film was rubbish :)
Anyway, I found the robot funny. The Doctor hates robots :)

Its top speen is 2mph
Not anymore!

Rocket powered robot!

Pardon me but didn't the Doctor say he hates funny robots, not robots as a whole?

ruach
December 20th, 2009, 07:19 AM
As others have said it was a rather slow set up but then again I suppose the point was being driven home about how alone The Doctor is now that he hasn't a Companion to keep him grounded. That not having a Companion may have a lot to do with his change in attitude and looking at himself as the all=powerful=Oz. Let's face it, with the power and knowledge he possess as well as the last of your kind mindset, who wouldn't be tempted? 900 years is a long time....

badwolfSG
December 20th, 2009, 09:26 AM
I am so mad at myself right now, I forgot this was on last night!!!! :( :(

Skydiver
December 20th, 2009, 10:37 AM
it re airs

http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/doctor/tv-listings/200951

badwolfSG
December 20th, 2009, 11:06 AM
it re airs

http://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/doctor/tv-listings/200951

Actually I was luck and it was on my on deman channels, but thanks!

Skydiver
December 20th, 2009, 11:09 AM
i wish i got bbc on my on demand, but they're not listed

maybe when it airs on skiffy it'll be on on demand

Replicator Todd
December 20th, 2009, 02:40 PM
i wish i got bbc on my on demand, but they're not listed

maybe when it airs on skiffy it'll be on on demand

If it airs on skiffy, if....

P-90_177
December 20th, 2009, 03:05 PM
And now for a crazy idea

"Crazy fan theory"

Maybe the other Doctor that lives with Rose instantaneously swaps places with the real Doctor on Mars and that explains his arrogant behaviour.

Erm....The Doctor has always been arrogant.......there's really no change there. In this case he just snapped cos he was sick and tired of having to let people die around him.

Skydiver
December 20th, 2009, 03:56 PM
after 900 years of immortality, who isnt' arrogant?

rose, martha, donna, they mellowed him a lot, but it was also too much hurt in too few years and he snapped.

he SHOULD have llet the mars colonists die, just like they were meant to. or, if he had to rescue them, he should have taken them somewhere else in time, somewhere where they couldn't muck up the timeline.

but as soon as he took them back to earth, he crossed that line. he messed with a 'fixed point in time'

Col.Foley
December 20th, 2009, 05:17 PM
I do not mind a dark doctor:P But an evil doctor was just too much:(

Coco Pops
December 20th, 2009, 06:40 PM
I do not mind a dark doctor:P But an evil doctor was just too much:(


He wasn't evil

badwolfSG
December 21st, 2009, 09:57 AM
after 900 years of immortality, who isnt' arrogant?

rose, martha, donna, they mellowed him a lot, but it was also too much hurt in too few years and he snapped.

he SHOULD have llet the mars colonists die, just like they were meant to. or, if he had to rescue them, he should have taken them somewhere else in time, somewhere where they couldn't muck up the timeline.

but as soon as he took them back to earth, he crossed that line. he messed with a 'fixed point in time'

I won't call him arrogant, he has all the knowledge and understanding and know one on any plant is his equal. So, he may come off as arrogant but he isn't.

I think the Doctor has too control himself everytime he goes through time, he know they only some much he can do, however sometime even the Dovtor loses control... It happens.

Col.Foley
December 21st, 2009, 04:54 PM
He wasn't evil
He certainly was pushing the envelope, fortanatly he was dragged back to sanity who knows what the result might have been.

Skydiver
December 21st, 2009, 05:07 PM
and the fact that the 'mere human' was more responsible about her presence than he was

she killed herself to preserve the timeline, she was stronger than he was

Coco Pops
December 21st, 2009, 08:14 PM
and the fact that the 'mere human' was more responsible about her presence than he was

she killed herself to preserve the timeline, she was stronger than he was

We don't know that. She could have gone on to lead a good life and encourage her grand daughter in the flesh and things still would have happened as they were supposed to happen, only she woauld be alive.

So excuse me while I have a cough and disagree about the suicide thing. I don't think it was right.

Skydiver
December 22nd, 2009, 03:51 AM
ok

my interpretation of it was: she'd heard from him how it was a fixed point in time, how she and the rest were supposed to die. when he rescued them, she said something to him about the timeline. he wasnt' concerned, but she seemed to be...and she chose to keep the timeline as close as she could in taking her own life.

on the computer screens, we saw that her story didn't change much. all that changed was that she died on earth, not mars.

but the other two, the other two survived to tell their tale and who knows what future decisions will be changed because they knew what was up there now

YMMV on that one, but that's how i saw it

Coco Pops
December 22nd, 2009, 06:07 PM
Why did the BBC hype up Adelaide so much yet she was there for only one viewing?

nx01a
December 22nd, 2009, 06:54 PM
Why did the BBC hype up Adelaide so much yet she was there for only one viewing?Increased emotional investment?
ok
my interpretation of it was: she'd heard from him how it was a fixed point in time, how she and the rest were supposed to die. when he rescued them, she said something to him about the timeline. he wasnt' concerned, but she seemed to be...and she chose to keep the timeline as close as she could in taking her own life.
on the computer screens, we saw that her story didn't change much. all that changed was that she died on earth, not mars.
but the other two, the other two survived to tell their tale and who knows what future decisions will be changed because they knew what was up there now
YMMV on that one, but that's how i saw itThat's pretty much how I see it, too. She realized that this being of immense power had gone crazy and made a potentially horrible mistake. She took it upon herself to save the future [specifically her grand-daughter's future], a job the Doctor was obviously neglecting at the time.
As for the other two, the Doctor called them 'little people'. Their survival probably didn't have that great an impact. With the base and the entity under it nuked, further exploration would go slowly and cautiously whether or not they knew the real reason for the blast, I think. Now the next wave of colonists have something specific to watch out for. And can bring plenty of back-up Britta water filters. :)

Coco Pops
December 22nd, 2009, 08:21 PM
Hey the virus was in the water. The water kept dripping on the robot and the robot went into the TARDIS.. Surely then if someone stepped into a wet patch on the floor of the TARDIS they could get the virus.

gateship15
December 23rd, 2009, 10:20 PM
hmm yes since it only takes one drop

Coco Pops
December 24th, 2009, 12:27 AM
hmm yes since it only takes one drop


True... Even the Doc could have gotten infected hehe

gateship15
December 24th, 2009, 12:30 AM
that would have been interesting to see an infected doctor i wander if the water could take him over

Coco Pops
December 24th, 2009, 12:35 AM
that would have been interesting to see an infected doctor i wander if the water could take him over


What about what it could do to the TARDIS

gateship15
December 25th, 2009, 12:36 AM
true and if it did take him over it could spread itself thro time and space

Jeffala
December 28th, 2009, 04:04 PM
I was re-watching the episode and took these snapshots while doing so. They're 1366x768 so YMMV while stretching.



http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/blahjeffblah/gateworld/watersofmars1-thumb.png (http://www.box.net/shared/imal27kcjv)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/blahjeffblah/gateworld/watersofmars2-thumb.png (http://www.box.net/shared/fhuydvht3l)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/blahjeffblah/gateworld/watersofmars3-thumb.png (http://www.box.net/shared/yedslq9i3m)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/blahjeffblah/gateworld/watersofmars4-thumb.png (http://www.box.net/shared/2i5ah36m85)

Angela V
January 3rd, 2010, 02:40 PM
That was awesome!

Even though I was cursing the Doctor for being so high and mighty, I at the same time felt sad for him. It was just heartbreaking.

gateship15
January 3rd, 2010, 08:49 PM
i agree

Col.Foley
January 3rd, 2010, 08:55 PM
I think it did an excellent job setting up the End of Time. The themes of it, and just how far a Time Lord could go, and really did a wonderful job setting up a Time Lords personal struggle with his own good and evil, how far was too far, and not far enough. "The Time Lord Victorious" Indeed

SGalisa
January 4th, 2010, 05:41 PM
...A story about a doomed Mars colony and an event that the doctor can't and won't change and him stuck in the middle. "Fires of Pompeii" anyone? Yes and it is even mentioned but Pompeii was better, because the doctor was so passive in this one. Fixed point in history in all that. He just looked on, very sorrowful and tried to get away himself.


I agree with you in the fact that it was a bit like Fires Of Pompeii because of the whole fixed point in time and the fact that even though he saw people dying and had Donna begging him to go back and help them, he only saved four people, but here he actually changed the timeline by saving these 3 people, but this time he made the choice to do it, even without anyone begging him. He also realises he has the power to change time if he wanted to because there was no one left to punish him.

well, maybe no one left.. *time* might punish him.. ;)
As for the whole Pompeii connection, I got those flashbacks right away. It was nearly deja-vu, but the Doctor made the choice to change history slightly. How much changed, as he said, "not much" because the outcome would still occur, but under different circumstances.
Groundhog Day.. anyone, but without showing it a million times over of the different variations leading to the same results..? :D


The doctor we saw at the end in the final bit scared me badly. Timelord Victorious...oh doctor. This could have gone into a really, great and heartbreaking direction but unfortunately the whole story development went to a screeching halt and made a U-Turn when the doctor sees that Ood (WTF?) and becomes afraid of dying. The doctor has never before been afraid of dying, because he always knew that he could simply regenerate but here - he was afraid which makes little sense. He was always comfortable with the fact that he won't live forever and always had a strong dislike for anyone who craved immortality, so why should he be afraid now?

Why would he be afraid now? Maybe feeling sorry for himself and not wanting to go thru the inevitable, especially when he was told his "song" was ending, and someone would knock 4 times. I think his hearing the 3 knocks gave him enough hope and determination to post-pone or beat out whatever would bring on his own death or regeneration.. even if only for another day or so. Seeing the Ood at the end, brought him back to the reality of knowing he couldn't stop whatever was going to happen to him personally, no matter how hard he tried to help others, and maybe save himself in the process.

Personally, I wasn't frightened of his turn-around in getting a positive (to believe in a winning) attitude. I did, however, think his whole "Time-Lord Victorious" speech was a bit off kilter, because the entire scene seemed a bit skewed.. or not the norm for a Doctor Who story. However, this ep showed what would happen if any survivors might thank him in the end -- for all of his efforts that he poured into saving them.

None of them thanked the Doctor. Actually, I think that thankless heart from ALL of them is what may have angered him a bit and throw him into a tizzy-fit. At least he let all those feelings finally come out. He's just held it in for so long and felt so lonely and guilty for surviving the Time Wars (past tense), that it just seemed logical for him to try to fix a situation he knew had basically fixed points of what must happen in the timeline, but I think he also felt deep down that just this once -- he might be able to help Adelaide's family out.

Except, Adelaide had other ideas, which just made the story more complex because initially, she did NOT want to die and begged the Doctor to help her. She was obviously asking for inspiration to obtain the strength to die, and when the Doctor rescued her instead, and gave his "Time-Lord Victorious" rant, she goes off and commits suicide. She did it for her daughter and grand-daughter.. but her sudden change in reaction didn't make sense to me -- other than being scared to take that step that would lead to her own death, regardless of what happened on Mars or Earth.

And ... Except for that last rescue scene (the entire 5 minute segment with the absolutely gorgeous music!), the rest of the story seemed almost slow.. in a thought-provoking sense. ;)

gateship15
January 18th, 2010, 09:49 PM
i agree. i like the change in the doctor i hope he doesn't stay that way but it shows that his human well the same as a human and that the stress, loneliness, anger and other emotions are catching up to him. i couldn't imagine that if i had done the things his done and seen what hes seen how i would not end up like that in the end. it goes to reinforce that he needs someone by his side to stop him when he gets out of control and what can happen if he doesn't

shipper hannah
January 23rd, 2010, 02:54 PM
I thought this episode was brilliantly done, one of my favourites in fact. Very intelligently written.
I loved how with the Doctor's feelings of loss and disillusionment led him to overstep that line, to have power that none should have. If he's the only Time Lord left, what's to stop him making his own rules? What's to stop him going back in time to save Rose or to go back to the Time War? I think in the same way that led to the downfall of the Time Lords from a great and noble race to how we see them in The End of Time.
I loved how it was Adelaide, one of his own historical heroes, who makes him realise that he's gone too far - it is his actions that lead her to commit suicide to safeguard the future of humanity. Adelaide ends up being the hero of the story, not the Doctor.

Coco Pops
January 23rd, 2010, 04:47 PM
And that they gave her a great name lilke Adelaide made it even more awesome. hehe.

I live in Adelaide :) "not what you think"

It's my hometown.

Coco Pops
January 23rd, 2010, 04:49 PM
hey also at the very end did that annoying robot go out of the TARDIS? Wasn't it still wet with virus water?

Did the Doc just leave it there or take it with him?

gateship15
January 23rd, 2010, 07:37 PM
I thought this episode was brilliantly done, one of my favourites in fact. Very intelligently written.
I loved how with the Doctor's feelings of loss and disillusionment led him to overstep that line, to have power that none should have. If he's the only Time Lord left, what's to stop him making his own rules? What's to stop him going back in time to save Rose or to go back to the Time War? I think in the same way that led to the downfall of the Time Lords from a great and noble race to how we see them in The End of Time.
I loved how it was Adelaide, one of his own historical heroes, who makes him realise that he's gone too far - it is his actions that lead her to commit suicide to safeguard the future of humanity. Adelaide ends up being the hero of the story, not the Doctor.



i agree with that and he doctor not being the hero all the time is why i like doctor who. its like when the doctor went back in time in one of the episodes and ended up causing the disaster that kills people. i like that sometimes those with the doctor are the ones who save the day. this is also seen with adric in the old ones when he tried to save earth not knowing that it was meant to happen only for it to happen and him losing his life.

Arga
February 24th, 2011, 04:34 AM
I completely agree with Darren's assessment! :D
I know "Egomaniacal" Doctor is supposed to be scary - what annoys me is two things (er, maybe I missed the answers).
1. Did they ever really address what the water monsters were? What were they calling out of the ice? Was the Doctor serious about the whole "Old Martian" thing?? :confused:

and

2. Why the heck would he take them HOME, to their own time as well as their own place? Is that part of his newfound arrogance? The mysterious and instant reappearance of the 3 of them only causes lots and LOTS of questions. Same for Brooke - if she honestly thinks that her survival will alter her grandaughters timeline and she's willing to kill herself to resurrect it surely she's intelligent enough to realise that killing herself in HER OWN LIVING ROOM is more likely to have the opposite effect? :confused:

I dunno!
Overall I enjoyed it, although the Doctor spent far too much time standing around being still and mournful for the first 40 mins. I liked that he walked the line towards the dark side, obviously he would lose his central appeal if he stayed there tho :p

Oh, and the trailer on the end for the next one - too much spoilage! I didn't need to know those people would be back :S Everyone know it's DT's last ep, they could afford not to show anything and would STILL have everyone flocking to it!

yes, and I have 2 other questions:

how come the people of the Mars station didn't insist more on who was the Doctor and where he comes from? I think they were too fast in accepting that a strange man appears on the planet..

When the Doctor speaks in old Martian language, how come we actually hear martian, isn't the Tardis supposed to translate everything?

A third question: how did he transport them all at the end? I missed the scene where they all step into the Tardis..

Coco Pops
February 24th, 2011, 05:32 AM
yes, and I have 2 other questions:

how come the people of the Mars station didn't insist more on who was the Doctor and where he comes from? I think they were too fast in accepting that a strange man appears on the planet..

When the Doctor speaks in old Martian language, how come we actually hear martian, isn't the Tardis supposed to translate everything?

A third question: how did he transport them all at the end? I missed the scene where they all step into the Tardis..



And I get Adelaide's anguish and suicide.....But why does the other girl freak out ? She's alive be thankful but none of them are...She just freaks off and runs into the distance.

And that annoying robot. Steps out of the TARDIS but isn't it contaminated with the Flood water?

maneth
May 13th, 2013, 08:08 AM
That was awesome!

Even though I was cursing the Doctor for being so high and mighty, I at the same time felt sad for him. It was just heartbreaking.

Great writing and awesome acting by DT. Loved this episode, creepy and poignant.

ETA: What's the database the Doctor seems to be able to access in his mind? Is it just his memory that changes as the timeline changes, or is it something else?

P-90_177
May 19th, 2013, 12:52 PM
Great writing and awesome acting by DT. Loved this episode, creepy and poignant.

ETA: What's the database the Doctor seems to be able to access in his mind? Is it just his memory that changes as the timeline changes, or is it something else?

The "database" as you call it, is actually the BBC website layout. :P It was just him remembering a news article. But essentially being a Timelord the Doctor can see and understand all variations in the timeline. He has an understanding of history and how changes can affect future events in even very subtle ways. In essence, yes he can change time but he also remembers what the timeline was before and has a knowledge of what he calls fixed points in time.

maneth
May 20th, 2013, 07:46 PM
Yeah, like the death of Dr Adelaide Brooke...