PDA

View Full Version : Fox Cancels Dollhouse



Madwelshboy
November 11th, 2009, 01:13 PM
Fox has canceled Joss Whedon's Dollhouse, according to The Hollywood Reporter.

The sci-fi series, which stars Eliza Dushku, is currently filming its 11th episode and is expected to finish its 13-episode order.

Though Dollhouse saw a ratings bump from DVR viewing after a grim performance in the fall, Fox pulled the cult favorite from its November-sweeps schedule after four episodes.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Dollhouse-Cancelled-1011926.aspx

EvilSpaceAlien
November 11th, 2009, 01:38 PM
It's not like we didn't see this coming, but I'm sad anyway. :( It's not very often that a good sci fi show comes along, and it's always such a shame when it's canceled.

DigiFluid
November 11th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Not a shock by any stretch of the imagination. Still a little sad though =/

jelgate
November 11th, 2009, 01:49 PM
Dollhouse a cult favorite? Really?

EvilSpaceAlien
November 11th, 2009, 01:49 PM
I'm starting to think that all shows that I like are either canceled, or I'm losing interest in them.

Dollhouse - Canceled
TSCC - Canceled
Smallville - Lost interest
Sanctuary - Starting to lose interest
Chuck - I don't think it'll last longer than season 3
Battlestar Galactica - Canceled/completed it's run
Heroes - It may or may not get a fifth season, but I'm starting to lose interest in that one too.

At least I got Caprica to look forward to. And there's more Doctor Who specials coming up, and there's also going to be a new season of Torchwood, so that's good. But except for V and SGU I don't have a lot of shows to look forward to any more. :(

DigiFluid
November 11th, 2009, 01:54 PM
Watch the Clone Wars CGI series. It's pretty awesome.

EvilSpaceAlien
November 11th, 2009, 01:57 PM
I'm not really a big Star Wars fan. Here comes the hate! :D

jelgate
November 11th, 2009, 01:59 PM
Star Wars always seemed more fantasy then science fiction.:P

DigiFluid
November 11th, 2009, 02:05 PM
*explodes with rage*

;)

Giantevilhead
November 11th, 2009, 02:10 PM
Heroes is not going to get canceled. It's ratings may not be very good but it's still NBC's highest rated scripted show. Plus they canceled a bunch of their other hour shows so they don't have much to fill the slots.

Also, there's V and if you can't find anything good on TV, then go play Mass Effect, Modern Warfare 2, or Dragon Age.

DigiFluid
November 11th, 2009, 02:11 PM
Mass Effect is second to Deus Ex. Always :)

EvilSpaceAlien
November 11th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Heroes is not going to get canceled. It's ratings may not be very good but it's still NBC's highest rated scripted show. Plus they canceled a bunch of their other hour shows so they don't have much to fill the slots.

Also, there's V and if you can't find anything good on TV, then go play Mass Effect, Modern Warfare 2, or Dragon Age.

Yeah, but it's also a problem if I lose interest in Heroes, like I did with Smallville.

I'm not a gamer. *gasp* I haven't even played a computer/video game in several months. *double gasp* :eek: :p
*sits back and waits for the hate* :D

Jeffala
November 11th, 2009, 02:31 PM
I haven't watched a single episode of Dollhouse this season (it is airing, right?). I can't remember being home on a Friday night to see it and haven't bothered to find it afterward.

The Prophet
November 11th, 2009, 02:35 PM
Summer Glau strikes again!

Madwelshboy
November 11th, 2009, 02:39 PM
Summer Glau strikes again!

:lol: if the next she stars in or has a multi episode arc gets cancelled, she's will even be known as the black widow of TV.

badwolfSG
November 11th, 2009, 04:46 PM
:lol: if the next she stars in or has a multi episode arc gets cancelled, she's will even be known as the black widow of TV.

Which is sad b/c I like her!!!

But I so saw this coming last season, so, I never started watching this season. It was a good show.

retiredat44
November 11th, 2009, 06:16 PM
Now they need to bring back Terminator TSCC. They really really really F'd up big time when they cancelled Terminator. They kept the wrong show! Nincompoops!

Giantevilhead
November 11th, 2009, 06:48 PM
Actually, with the company that owns the Terminator franchise going bankrupt, Fox would have had a lot of problems with TSCC if they decided to keep it.

Amalthea
November 11th, 2009, 07:19 PM
Bummer. No surprise there, I suppose. Maybe this will learn 'im about getting in bed with Fox.

Angela V
November 11th, 2009, 07:58 PM
:lol: if the next she stars in or has a multi episode arc gets cancelled, she's will even be known as the black widow of TV.

But Summer hasn't even made her appearance! So she can't be known as a show killer. However if you look at Fox's record....:jack_new_anime25:

I'm watching until the end and hopefully Joss gets a chance to wrap things up a bit. Fox should NEVER had one episode you could only watch on DVD. They were already giving the fans the finger when they did that. And if them moving Fringe to Thursday kills it, they really are clueless. They moved Terminator to Fridays and the ratings went way down. I would really like them to move something like House or 24 to Fridays and see how well they fair.

Colonel Sharp
November 11th, 2009, 09:12 PM
Holy ****.

Admittedly, I haven't watched any of Dollhouse, but to see Joss get axed by Fox AGAIN makes me very sad. :(

DigiFluid
November 11th, 2009, 09:20 PM
Holy ****.

Admittedly, I haven't watched any of Dollhouse, but to see Joss get axed by Fox AGAIN makes me very sad. :(

As much as I want to be mad at Fox for this, I just can't.

Dollhouse has just been a really halfarsed series, it has as many unwatchably bad episodes as it does outstandingly good ones. And really, for going back to Fox after the Firefly debacle, Whedon has no-one to blame but himself.

Siglavy
November 11th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Disappointing, but not unexpected.

Now we wait to see if FOX actually does air all 13 episodes as promised.

Replicator Todd
November 11th, 2009, 10:16 PM
Alas, history seems to repeat itself with FOX at the helm.

Betelgeuze
November 11th, 2009, 10:48 PM
Pity. But can't say i'm as outraged as when they cancelled Firefly.

Franklyn Blaze
November 11th, 2009, 11:32 PM
Never saw a single episode. I don't pick up on any JW shows until they're 3rd season confirmed. :)

badwolfSG
November 12th, 2009, 12:55 AM
Never saw a single episode. I don't pick up on any JW shows until they're 3rd season confirmed. :)

He does get a lot of his show cancelled. I mean what show other than buffy and Angel made it too a third season?

TheRandomOne
November 12th, 2009, 02:22 AM
I told people that this was going to happen

MattSilver 3k
November 12th, 2009, 02:26 AM
I told people that this was going to happen

Want a cookie? It's a Whedon show. On Fox.

My dead relatives saw it coming!

Anywatt, I'm a little bummed, but there's still 9 episodes to watch, so no big loss.

EvilSpaceAlien
November 12th, 2009, 02:45 AM
I told people that this was going to happen

Everyone knew that it was going to be canceled. :beckettanime09:

Sp!der
November 12th, 2009, 06:15 AM
ok now... who wants my season one dollhouse dvds... paid actually 40 bucks for it.damn it. thought it would last longer....

jelgate
November 12th, 2009, 07:30 AM
I can't find myself blaming Fox for this one. Dollhouse had terrible numbers to begin with and they just got worse as the series continued. Joss Whedon is not above failure for a TV series. And that is just what happened. The viewers just didn't like the story

Jeffala
November 12th, 2009, 12:06 PM
<Snipped>

One could say that maybe it makes room for something that doesn't suck, but I didn't think Dollhouse sucked when I watched it.

I guess you could say that it'll make room for something with longevity, but FOX, longevity, and scifi don't mix well together.

OOH! I've got it. It'll make room for a new show about an acerbic doctor/FBI agent who has to infiltrate a dance/singing talent show to find out why x-files-ish activities are occurring. It'll run for 15 seasons and will feature a glee club doing the soundtrack.

huntress
November 12th, 2009, 12:33 PM
I read about in a different community.

Joss. you knew that Fox consists of a bunch of jerks and you had vowed to never work with them again and still you came back. You should have known better.:(

I guess we fans saw that coming. Why else would Fox pull the show off the air in November and then show double features. They want to get rid of the show as fast as possible. I think we fans should be glad that they at least show all the episodes. They didn't do that with Firefly and neither did ABC with "Pushing Daisies".

Oh well at least now he has the time to do the project with the BBC that he has been holding back for a while now :-\

huntress
November 12th, 2009, 12:41 PM
I can't find myself blaming Fox for this one. Dollhouse had terrible numbers to begin with and they just got worse as the series continued. Joss Whedon is not above failure for a TV series. And that is just what happened. The viewers just didn't like the story

Erm....actually a lot of people did love the show but, as discussed in a different thread, the real problem lies with the fact that Fox like so many other channels just looks at the ratings from Nielsens and nothing else. If they had actually looked closer at the numbers for digital downloads like Hulu or TiVO then they would have seen that Dollhouse is doing actually pretty well. A lot of people simply do not watch a show when it is on anymore (I certainly don't), but when they have time and it is convenient via one of the newer venues.

Schrodinger's Cat
November 12th, 2009, 12:49 PM
Fox has canceled Joss Whedon's Dollhouse, according to The Hollywood Reporter.

The sci-fi series, which stars Eliza Dushku, is currently filming its 11th episode and is expected to finish its 13-episode order.

Though Dollhouse saw a ratings bump from DVR viewing after a grim performance in the fall, Fox pulled the cult favorite from its November-sweeps schedule after four episodes.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Dollhouse-Cancelled-1011926.aspx

Isn't this headline from last year as well?

scruffyisasuperhero
November 12th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Unsurprising but it's a shame. The last episode to be aired was probably the best one so far. Still looking forward to the remaining 9 episodes. I think Whedon previously said that episode 13 will provide some amount of closure and I've read a few places that Fox still plans on airing these final episodes, so that's something at least.

Col. Tomorian
November 12th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Dollhouse down.
Stargate: Universe up next.

Skydiver
November 12th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Dollhouse down.
Stargate: Universe up next.
unlikely

since SGU isn't on fox.

and that IS the topic here, FOX canceling Dollhouse. You wanna chat about SGU, head on over to that part of the forum please

jelgate
November 12th, 2009, 03:27 PM
Erm....actually a lot of people did love the show but, as discussed in a different thread, the real problem lies with the fact that Fox like so many other channels just looks at the ratings from Nielsens and nothing else. If they had actually looked closer at the numbers for digital downloads like Hulu or TiVO then they would have seen that Dollhouse is doing actually pretty well. A lot of people simply do not watch a show when it is on anymore (I certainly don't), but when they have time and it is convenient via one of the newer venues.

Actually the networks do look at the online and DVR shifted numbers. It just wasn't enough. Dollhouse had a big increase with Live +7 but they were still quite low

knowles2
November 12th, 2009, 03:41 PM
Well we all knew it was coming.

Cannot blame Fox the numbers has been lousy.
An the show swings far to much to great best stuff on TV to this should not even be on TV quality.

Which they never solve in the second season.

I do not think I will missed this one. An I honestly think it was Whendon an crew that made the mistakes an not Fox. After all it was his decision to not work with HBO, where the show could of become a success.

Amalthea
November 12th, 2009, 04:35 PM
My brother sent me this... he found it on a Facebook Dollhouse fan page:

http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo359/AmaltheaSG1/curse.jpg

Franklyn Blaze
November 12th, 2009, 06:03 PM
Notice how it says 20th century, cause that's where they are stuck at.

huntress
November 13th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Actually the networks do look at the online and DVR shifted numbers. It just wasn't enough. Dollhouse had a big increase with Live +7 but they were still quite low

Yeah but they only look at those numbers as an afterthought. The numbers that all networks still care most are the Nielsen numbers. The networks have to accept that viewing habits have changed thanks to the internet and digital television.

badwolfSG
November 13th, 2009, 12:45 AM
Yeah but they only look at those numbers as an afterthought. The numbers that all networks still care most are the Nielsen numbers. The networks have to accept that viewing habits have changed thanks to the internet and digital television.

They have to get with the flow, I mean I watch a couple of my show just online.

maneth
November 13th, 2009, 02:24 AM
Indeed. I hope JW won't try FOX again. Not that *spit* SyFy is much better when it comes to rescheduling and then killing off shows.

And yeah, ditch Dushku already, she can't act her way out of a paper bag. Not even when she's supposed to play a blank-slate character. IMO Faith killed off Angel, and she wasn't exactly a positive contributor to Buffy either.

Commander Zelix
November 13th, 2009, 05:32 AM
I've watched it last year, but couldn't push myself to watch it this year. I watch the first 2 episodes I think, it was unbearable to me. The actress playing echo got no acting range at all. Which is strange since its a role where range is more important than anything. Shes great playing the motor biker's girlfriend. But she can't play the negotiator or other such role. No matter what wardrobe you make her wear.

jelgate
November 13th, 2009, 07:41 AM
Yeah but they only look at those numbers as an afterthought. The numbers that all networks still care most are the Nielsen numbers. The networks have to accept that viewing habits have changed thanks to the internet and digital television.

That is not what my sources tell me. With the DVR the numbers were still quite low. And Hulu sales were nothing to boast about for Dollhouse

Angela V
November 13th, 2009, 11:33 AM
My brother sent me this... he found it on a Facebook Dollhouse fan page:

http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo359/AmaltheaSG1/curse.jpg

OMG! That's Wash and his dinosaurs! Now that's funny. Wish I had my Firefly DVD set with me to just go and find that scene.

Giantevilhead
November 13th, 2009, 12:33 PM
If it wasn't for Fox, Joss Whedon wouldn't even have a career. I don't know if anyone knows this but all of Whedon's shows were produced by Fox. Even Buffy and Angel were produced by Fox.

People need to understand that this is business. Complaining about Fox canceling a low rated show while creating more reality shows is like complaining about how McDonald's sells Big Macs instead of artichokes.

The Prophet
November 13th, 2009, 12:39 PM
People need to understand that this is business. Complaining about Fox canceling a low rated show while creating more reality shows is like complaining about how McDonald's sells Big Macs instead of artichokes.

The McChoke salad.

But, I agree. Fox needs to make money, it can't carry on shows (that are apparantly unpopular) just for the sake of it. It's bad business. They probably couldn't if they wanted to, their shareholders and other corperate investors wouldn't be exactly pleased, to say the least.

Then again, all this new digital media- downloading episodes (legally & illegally) and TV on Demand really needs to be taken into consideration, somehow. Dollhouse seems to be one of those shows that has a following that is largely internet based, so yeah.

/Some point about ratings not being as accurate as they once were.

Unhallowed
November 14th, 2009, 04:07 AM
It was only a matter of time. I wonder if Fox will actually admit that they made a major screw up in keeping Dollhouse running and cancelling TSCC. I doubt it but i'd laugh if they did, the entire network is run by a bunch of money-grabbing brain-damaged yuppies that don't have a single clue what they're doing.

huntress
November 14th, 2009, 09:53 AM
... the entire network is run by a bunch of money-grabbing brain-damaged yuppies that don't have a single clue what they're doing.

: shrug : Tell us something new. This is true for the majority of Hollywood. How else do you explain that lack of substance in 90% of their products? I am really glad for film festivals like Tribeca, Sundance, the Viennale and Berlinale. I really hope that television will be revolutionized even more, maybe in such a way that people really do not watch network television at all, but pick and choose the shows they want to see (I mean legally not through torrents) and it actually matters or more artists will go the way that Joss went with Dr. Horrible. It is already happening on a bigger scale in the music industry where artists like Patrick Wolf finance their record through bandstocks by fans.

scifi_girl
November 15th, 2009, 11:09 AM
I know it was probably only a matter of time before the shown got cancelled but I thought it was quite good, and the storyline was getting really good too.

GoSpikey
November 15th, 2009, 01:19 PM
We just had the fourth episode of season one on in Belgium today, in fact, it was on till 2 hours ago.

I like Dollhouse... And Eliza.

Bummer another Joss serie gets axed, and another Eliza show.

M2W
November 15th, 2009, 04:21 PM
Disappointing, but not unexpected.

Now we wait to see if FOX actually does air all 13 episodes as promised.

Maybe they can show them out of order.

ShadowMaat
November 15th, 2009, 06:45 PM
I have a hard time blaming FOX for this one and while I know the network is known for interfering with stories I still think Joss is the main source of blame for Dollhouse's failure.

The premise WAS good, IMO, but I also think it was mismanaged from start to finish. Even disregarding how it took half a season last year for the show to get to the point I think that what they've done since then just hasn't been wow enough. Quite frankly I'm amazed it got renewed even once. If any other name had been attached to this show it probably wouldn't have received a second season and I think fans are probably lucky that FOX hates them as much as they hate FOX. ;)

The storytelling has, in my opinion, been too awkward and uneven to be really effective. Last season was a mess and maybe part of that was because of whatever limits/parameters FOX imposed, but that doesn't excuse the mess of this season or the fact that it has taken them four episodes to get to the point (again) and start developing the actual arc rather than goofing off and reiterating ad nauseum that Echo is "different" from the other dolls. And technically "Belonging" didn't really add to the arc since Echo was barely even in it, but it did provide a solid and compelling storyline for the first time since the end of last season. This is the kind of moralistic underbelly that could have been the show's hallmark and if more eps were like Belonging I think the show might have had a better leg to stand on. It still might not have made it, but maybe fans would have been more emotionally involved and upset at the prospect of cancellation rather than shrugging it off as, "Oh well, we knew it was coming."

There's more to the Dollhouse than just "OMG sex toyz" and as Sierra's backstory proves, even the sex toy angle can be about more than some rich horndog wanting to scratch an itch. Instead of having everything be shallow and surface-y they could have been building up layers and nuances, but for the most part they didn't and I think that lack of depth helped contribute to the show's demise.

The other big thing, for me at least, is what I've said again and again: too much focus on Echo. Yes, I get that she's the centerpiece for the show and I know Joss built everything around and for her, but I still think it was a fatal mistake. I don't think Eliza Dushku has the range or talent to carry off a show like this and as a result she wound up hamstringing it. All of the personalities she adopted had a certain sameness to them. A more generous fan might say that it's meant to demonstrate Echo's underlying base personality, but I say it's because Eliza only knows how to play one character over and over again. She gets the star treatment and the accolades over her castmates, but personally I'm much more interested to see what Enver Gjokaj does next and will probably make a point of checking out his career whereas I watched Dollhouse despite Eliza's presence and will probably make a point of NOT seeing anything else she's in.

Just please, gods, keep her away from the Doctor Horrible sequel. :P

Captain Obvious
November 15th, 2009, 09:11 PM
eliza dusku is bad luck for a TV show. you want the thing to last more than 1-2 seasons, don't put her as your lead.

DigiFluid
November 15th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Eliza Dushku....Summer Glau....Jewel Staite....Nathan Fillion....

I think we can reasonably safely say that it's actually Joss Whedon who's bad luck for TV shows ;)

jelgate
November 15th, 2009, 09:15 PM
Eliza Dushku....Summer Glau....Jewel Staite....Nathan Fillion....I think we can reasonably safely say that it's actually Joss Whedon who's bad luck for TV shows ;)Buffy and Angel had decent runs.

ShadowMaat
November 15th, 2009, 09:51 PM
Eliza Dushku....Summer Glau....Jewel Staite....Nathan Fillion....

I think we can reasonably safely say that it's actually Joss Whedon who's bad luck for TV shows ;)

Truth. I think Joss isn't nearly as good as his fans believe he is, but part of that means latching on to people who... may not be at their best. ;) Dunno about Summer and Jewel since I haven't seen 'em on much else and I kinda like what little I've seen of Nathan, but Eliza? Again, I haven't seen her in much but I also haven't enjoyed what I've seen.

huntress
November 16th, 2009, 04:09 AM
Eliza Dushku....Summer Glau....Jewel Staite....Nathan Fillion....

I think we can reasonably safely say that it's actually Joss Whedon who's bad luck for TV shows ;)

You can't blame Joss on bad luck. Both Buffy and Angel did well and Firefly should have done well if fox hadn't been so dumb to cancel the show way too early on.

Jewel Staite is a nice actress but had some serious bad luck in the shows she was in. Firefly was brilliant but Fox couldn't see it, Wonderfalls was also great but just like "Pushing Daisies" underappreciated, Jewel joins SGA *blam* it gets cancelled one season later, which wasn't her fault but that of the writers and their shoddy stories. I never saw "Flash Forward" but that show also didn't last longer then a season. Jewel has more bad luck then Joss. Eliza....I love her but she isn't much of an actress to be honest and she doesn't have the range that is needed for a role like Echo. "True Faith" just sucked. Summer Glau is stuck at being typecast which has a lot to do with her slightly strange look. No matter where she turns up, she is usually an android, robot, in a psychic ward or should be LOL Nathan is right now very successful with Castle, which is doing well and will probably stay around for a while.

Giantevilhead
November 16th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Nathan Fillion now has Castle, which is doing very well in the ratings.

Also, the premise to Dollhouse isn't nearly as original as people say it is. It's basically based off of Dark City and Planescape: Torment.

Replicator Todd
November 20th, 2009, 12:19 AM
I wish Fox went bankrupt and someone better took its place...I really do.

Krichton
November 20th, 2009, 04:52 PM
Dollhouse is unwatchable. This is the only Whedon show that should have been cancelled during season one. I'm shocked that it's lasted this long and that just shows how badly warped the minds are at Fox. They cancel the good shows early and then keep the bad ones too long.

Alan Wake
November 20th, 2009, 10:04 PM
Bummer. No surprise there, I suppose. Maybe this will learn 'im about getting in bed with Fox.

Meh... Fox has stayed out of my bed for years now. The only channel I let under my covers is probably only Syfy.

Occasionally SPIKE will creep in.

Oh, and I believe this show is long overdo for being channeled.

FromOutside
November 22nd, 2009, 07:08 AM
The storytelling has, in my opinion, been too awkward and uneven to be really effective.--

There's more to the Dollhouse than just "OMG sex toyz" and as Sierra's backstory proves, even the sex toy angle can be about more than some rich horndog wanting to scratch an itch. Instead of having everything be shallow and surface-y they could have been building up layers and nuances, but for the most part they didn't and I think that lack of depth helped contribute to the show's demise.

What kind of awkward storytelling you mean? Personally I think that storytelling in Dollhouse is somewhat dreamy, dream-like, and that is actually a plus sign to the story. Echo's life is shown as sharp fragments (different imprints) loosely tied together with the misty eyed time she spends in the Dollhouse and that is what makes storytelling special.

But what comes to bigger picture, storytelling is just too slow when its one ep in one week. If one ep in onw dat, it doesn't bother too much.

I am actually kind of happy they canceled the show, and that is because of 'more than just "OMG sex toyz"' aspect. I think Dollhouse is nice and entertaining but a bit too easy to figure out overview to western philosophy of 'me'. (So it's not that much about adventure etc. and and slow storytelling is more or less ok). And what would the next season to be about if there was any? Western basics of 'me' is already pretty much used and if they were going to deeper and more complicated philosophy of the subject, there would be very few to watch the series since few would know the philosophy they are referring to. At least I guess, I don't know if they study the subject in USA high school or so.

-> better cancel than crush the whole point.

(That was difficult to write, hopefully it's not as difficult to read...)

ShadowMaat
November 22nd, 2009, 01:03 PM
What kind of awkward storytelling you mean? Personally I think that storytelling in Dollhouse is somewhat dreamy, dream-like, and that is actually a plus sign to the story. Echo's life is shown as sharp fragments (different imprints) loosely tied together with the misty eyed time she spends in the Dollhouse and that is what makes storytelling special.
Huh. That's a really interesting way to look at Echo. I have a hard time not seeing Eliza trying to understand what the point of her character is and just sort of bumbling along with all of Echo's personalities just kinda being variants of the same Faith-like character.

I'm not sure I can really quantify what I find awkward about the storytelling except that the focus doesn't always seem to be in the right place. For instance, wasting episode after episode to show us how "different" Echo is when they could be using that different-ness to push the story forward. I don't need to know "Hey look, she's different, she REMEMBERS stuff," I need "She remembers stuff and this is what she's doing with it." We got some of that in the last episode with her setting off the other characters but I feel that there should be more of that sort of thing. It doesn't have to be heavy-handed (and couldn't be or Adele & crew would be more likely to pick up on it), but just show us more of Echo manipulating things toward a specific end.

Or maybe she's been doing that and it was TOO subtle for me to notice. ;)

I also really detest the heavy focus on Echo herself. I know she's the star of the show and the whole focus is supposed to be on her, but if we got a better chance to know the other dolls then they wouldn't have to keep underlining the "she's so different" thing; it'd be obvious by watching the other dolls and seeing how they react- or fail to react- to certain stimuli.


But what comes to bigger picture, storytelling is just too slow when its one ep in one week. If one ep in onw dat, it doesn't bother too much.
I do think the storytelling is too slow and, IMO, too prone to repetition. That kind of stuff only becomes more obvious, not less, when you watch it in marathon sessions. Or it does for me, anyway.


And what would the next season to be about if there was any? Western basics of 'me' is already pretty much used and if they were going to deeper and more complicated philosophy of the subject, there would be very few to watch the series since few would know the philosophy they are referring to. At least I guess, I don't know if they study the subject in USA high school or so.
Yeah, I don't think philosophy gets covered too much in school unless you take specific courses for it in college/uni, but as far as what future seasons would be about it'd be more of the same: Echo is different and the Dollhouse is a dangerous concept staffed (at least in LA) by people who are in a moral gray area and who are not fully aware of the bigger picture. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Jeff O'Connor
November 22nd, 2009, 01:21 PM
ShadowMaat beautifully summed up my thoughts on the series. It never really did it for me, and as it stands there's still only just the one television series by Whedon that I actually agree with (most, not all) of the love toward. Dollhouse isn't that show.

Eliza Dushku has never done it for me. She has plenty of fans; I'm just not one of them. I mean no disrespect to her person, but her acting is not my cup of tea. At all.

And as DigiFluid said, the series has had as many unwatchably bad episodes as it has outstandingly good ones. Except IMO, the 'outstanding' bit is only so because those episodes are so much more tolerable than the rest of the muck. They're still far from four stars as far as I'm concerned.

My girlfriend watches Dollhouse, and she agrees with me to some extent about the problems it has had since square one. She thought the show was picking up the pace and getting much, much better toward the end of the first season, to the point that she couldn't wait to tune in next week. Me, not so much, but I saw improvements. Now she thinks the second season has been almost as rocky as the earlier parts of the first, and has lost much of the enthusiasm she had when Alan Tudyk was doing his thing and all that.

I'm glad for her that Whedon is trying to wrap things up as well as possible for the finale, but Dollhouse lost me a long time ago.

EvilSpaceAlien
November 22nd, 2009, 01:51 PM
Eliza Dushku....Summer Glau....Jewel Staite....Nathan Fillion....

I think we can reasonably safely say that it's actually Joss Whedon who's bad luck for TV shows ;)

Reed Diamond is the reason for Dollhouse' cancellation!!! :eek: He was on Journeyman too and that show got axed, so this means that it's all his fault! :eek:
If someone else would have played Mr. Dominic the show would have gotten 14 million viewers in it's first season!!!!! :eek: :p :p :p :p

:p

FromOutside
November 22nd, 2009, 05:30 PM
I'm not sure I can really quantify what I find awkward about the storytelling except that the focus doesn't always seem to be in the right place. For instance, wasting episode after episode to show us how "different" Echo is when they could be using that different-ness to push the story forward. I don't need to know "Hey look, she's different, she REMEMBERS stuff," I need "She remembers stuff and this is what she's doing with it." We got some of that in the last episode with her setting off the other characters but I feel that there should be more of that sort of thing. It doesn't have to be heavy-handed (and couldn't be or Adele & crew would be more likely to pick up on it), but just show us more of Echo manipulating things toward a specific end.

--

I do think the storytelling is too slow and, IMO, too prone to repetition. That kind of stuff only becomes more obvious, not less, when you watch it in marathon sessions. Or it does for me, anyway.

Ah, that's what I meant to slow :) Snail sedated to death slow, it is.

But that never bothered me when I watched Dollhouse... not quite marathon but 2+ ep in one day. True indeed, repetitions become more obvious like that, but when one episode isn't enough, one just turn the next one on and watches, and when it's not enough, then comes next ep and so on. Of course watching like this asks much free time (at least "free" time) and some patience but I don't lack either when it comes down to watching series :D But of course, this is just me and I can fully understand other may see this differently.


Yeah, I don't think philosophy gets covered too much in school unless you take specific courses for it in college/uni, but as far as what future seasons would be about it'd be more of the same: Echo is different and the Dollhouse is a dangerous concept staffed (at least in LA) by people who are in a moral gray area and who are not fully aware of the bigger picture. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Yup, definitely better to cancel than be stuck with this! Dollhouse, the way it was left, has some strong points, but they wouldn't carry the show much if any further. It would ask one neat idea to continue and keep up the good work.

HAL2100
December 5th, 2009, 10:39 AM
It was good. Hmm... A feature film would be nice...

Giantevilhead
December 5th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Dollhouse does seem to be the most derivative of Whedon's shows. When I'm watching Dollhouse, I keep getting reminded of Blade Runner, The Bourne Identity, Dark City, The Prisoner, and Planescape: Torment. On the other hand, even though Firefly took ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars, I was never really think about them when I was watching Firefly.

Ashman
December 5th, 2009, 09:02 PM
To bad I found this series on hula today! After hearing about it from GWPodcast! I am bummd. Eli D was more girl just one more time!

HAL2100
December 5th, 2009, 10:31 PM
Dollhouse does seem to be the most derivative of Whedon's shows. When I'm watching Dollhouse, I keep getting reminded of Blade Runner, The Bourne Identity, Dark City, The Prisoner, and Planescape: Torment. On the other hand, even though Firefly took ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars, I was never really think about them when I was watching Firefly.

There is a difference between a work being derivative and it containing similar themes or concepts. Would you say that BSG was a derivative of Blade Runner given the skin jobs? or that it was a derivative of Alien given that Nash(?) was an human looking android?

Likewise Firefly didn't neccessarily 'take' ideas from ST or SW.

There was a show in the '70's about a guy that suffered some brain injury that could download any skill that he needed. (I wish I knew the name of it.) But you could argue that The Pretender stole from that show as did Dollhouse. DH moreso.

Its not about the themes or plot devices, its about how their used and the stories that are being told whether it be the story of the characters as individuals or as a group.

Giantevilhead
December 6th, 2009, 03:29 AM
There is a difference between a work being derivative and it containing similar themes or concepts. Would you say that BSG was a derivative of Blade Runner given the skin jobs? or that it was a derivative of Alien given that Nash(?) was an human looking android?

Likewise Firefly didn't neccessarily 'take' ideas from ST or SW.

There was a show in the '70's about a guy that suffered some brain injury that could download any skill that he needed. (I wish I knew the name of it.) But you could argue that The Pretender stole from that show as did Dollhouse. DH moreso.

Its not about the themes or plot devices, its about how their used and the stories that are being told whether it be the story of the characters as individuals or as a group.

Firefly took some very basic ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars. It took the whole "wagon train to the stars" idea from Star Trek and it took the whole space being dirty and grimy idea from Star Wars but that's about it. Almost everything else is pretty original.

Dollhouse on the other hand has tons of ideas from other sources. The way memories are imprinted is very reminiscent of what did in Dark City where a race of dying parasitic aliens study humans by implanting different memories and personalities in people.

Of course, the idea that it's getting harder and harder to tell if the difference between actives and actuals is taken from Blade Runner.

Just the last two episodes had a lot of stuff that are taken from other sources. The way Senator Perrin was used by Rossum is a lot like the way Quaid was used by Cohaagen in Total Recall. The only real difference is that Quaid's original personality knew what he was getting into and had a plan to get his body back.

Echo being "awakened" in this previous episode and beginning to remember the previous personalities she's been imprinted with shares many similarities with what happens in Planescape: Torment. In the game, you play as The Nameless One, voiced by Michael T. Weiss interestingly enough, who is immortal but has a chance of losing his memories whenever he suffers a fatal wound. Throughout the game, you try to find out the secret to the The Nameless One's immortality and in the search, you discover what some of his previous personalities did. As you learn more about The Nameless One's past, he begins to remember abilities, powers, and skills of the previous personalities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they add clones to the mix. The Rossum Corporation would then be able to offer clients immortality by allowing them to preserve their personalities and memories in exact clones of themselves, just like in The Sixth Day.

HAL2100
December 6th, 2009, 08:49 AM
Firefly took some very basic ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars. It took the whole "wagon train to the stars" idea from Star Trek and it took the whole space being dirty and grimy idea from Star Wars but that's about it. Almost everything else is pretty original.

Dollhouse on the other hand has tons of ideas from other sources. The way memories are imprinted is very reminiscent of what did in Dark City where a race of dying parasitic aliens study humans by implanting different memories and personalities in people.

Of course, the idea that it's getting harder and harder to tell if the difference between actives and actuals is taken from Blade Runner.

Just the last two episodes had a lot of stuff that are taken from other sources. The way Senator Perrin was used by Rossum is a lot like the way Quaid was used by Cohaagen in Total Recall. The only real difference is that Quaid's original personality knew what he was getting into and had a plan to get his body back.

Echo being "awakened" in this previous episode and beginning to remember the previous personalities she's been imprinted with shares many similarities with what happens in Planescape: Torment. In the game, you play as The Nameless One, voiced by Michael T. Weiss interestingly enough, who is immortal but has a chance of losing his memories whenever he suffers a fatal wound. Throughout the game, you try to find out the secret to the The Nameless One's immortality and in the search, you discover what some of his previous personalities did. As you learn more about The Nameless One's past, he begins to remember abilities, powers, and skills of the previous personalities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they add clones to the mix. The Rossum Corporation would then be able to offer clients immortality by allowing them to preserve their personalities and memories in exact clones of themselves, just like in The Sixth Day.

You're still missing my point, its not about the plot devices or themes its about the stories being told with them. Is a police story derivative because it uses police cars? Is it derivative because it depicts the officers in the agency as corrupt? Is 'Saving Private Ryan' derivative because it depicts the harsh realities of war? SPR may have been the first film to truly depict on film the horror of war, but any subsequent film is not neccessarily derivative because it chooses to be just as horrific as 'SPR' even when depicting a different battle. Is New Moon derivative because the story was heavily inspired by Romeo and Juliet (which the author has admitted as an influence)? Is BSG:RDM derivative because it was based on BSG:TOS and obviously very heavily relied on the original series for the general story line and even character names?

Giantevilhead
December 6th, 2009, 04:50 PM
You're still missing my point, its not about the plot devices or themes its about the stories being told with them. Is a police story derivative because it uses police cars? Is it derivative because it depicts the officers in the agency as corrupt? Is 'Saving Private Ryan' derivative because it depicts the harsh realities of war? SPR may have been the first film to truly depict on film the horror of war, but any subsequent film is not neccessarily derivative because it chooses to be just as horrific as 'SPR' even when depicting a different battle. Is New Moon derivative because the story was heavily inspired by Romeo and Juliet (which the author has admitted as an influence)? Is BSG:RDM derivative because it was based on BSG:TOS and obviously very heavily relied on the original series for the general story line and even character names?

Except that I'm not just talking about plot themes or devices anymore. The examples I gave are not nearly as general as the ones you gave. I'm not saying that because the show stars humans, it's a rip off of The Queen's Messenger, the first television show ever made, that also happened to star humans. I mentioned very specific ideas that were from other sources, including an entire plot thread that was very similar to that of a movie's.

Rossum altered Perrin's memories so that Perrin would go after them without knowing that he really worked for them. Rossum planned it so that Perrin would eventually turn on the people who are helping him go after Rossum, exonerating Rossum and putting it in a much better position. In Total Recall, Cohaagen altered Quaid's memories so that Quaid would go after Cohaagen by allying with the mutants without know that he was really working for Cohaagen. The plan was to let Quaid reach the mutant leader, leading Cohaagen's forces there too so that they can destroy the mutant resistance, thus allowing Cohaagen to completely control Mars. It's the same plot, even their wives are really working for the bad guys and they're both blond. I can understand some of that being an homage to Total Recall but there are just way too many similarities.

Also, your example of BSG being derivative of the original series is completely erroneous since it's a remake and therefore is supposed to be based heavily on the original series. Otherwise it wouldn't be a remake.

HAL2100
December 6th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Except that I'm not just talking about plot themes or devices anymore. The examples I gave are not nearly as general as the ones you gave. I'm not saying that because the show stars humans, it's a rip off of The Queen's Messenger, the first television show ever made, that also happened to star humans. I mentioned very specific ideas that were from other sources, including an entire plot thread that was very similar to that of a movie's.

Rossum altered Perrin's memories so that Perrin would go after them without knowing that he really worked for them. Rossum planned it so that Perrin would eventually turn on the people who are helping him go after Rossum, exonerating Rossum and putting it in a much better position. In Total Recall, Cohaagen altered Quaid's memories so that Quaid would go after Cohaagen by allying with the mutants without know that he was really working for Cohaagen. The plan was to let Quaid reach the mutant leader, leading Cohaagen's forces there too so that they can destroy the mutant resistance, thus allowing Cohaagen to completely control Mars. It's the same plot, even their wives are really working for the bad guys and they're both blond. I can understand some of that being an homage to Total Recall but there are just way too many similarities.

Also, your example of BSG being derivative of the original series is completely erroneous since it's a remake and therefore is supposed to be based heavily on the original series. Otherwise it wouldn't be a remake.

So just because Shakespeare wrote a story about star crossed lovers, I as a writer can't write about a boy and girl in love and separated by their families. Say a story set in deep south in 60's were once is white and one is black? Or to make it more inline with R&J, a story where the disagreement between the two families is less decisive such as one a member of one family being fired by a member of the other family?

Giantevilhead
December 6th, 2009, 07:08 PM
So just because Shakespeare wrote a story about star crossed lovers, I as a writer can't write about a boy and girl in love and separated by their families. Say a story set in deep south in 60's were once is white and one is black? Or to make it more inline with R&J, a story where the disagreement between the two families is less decisive such as one a member of one family being fired by a member of the other family?

First of all, you're completely twisting my argument. I never said that stories can't be derivative. West Side Story is extremely derivative of Romeo and Juliet, it's pretty much a retelling of the story but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just can't be as unique as the original.

Second, I never even said that Dollhouse was bad because it was derivative. This is what I said:


Dollhouse does seem to be the most derivative of Whedon's shows. When I'm watching Dollhouse, I keep getting reminded of Blade Runner, The Bourne Identity, Dark City, The Prisoner, and Planescape: Torment. On the other hand, even though Firefly took ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars, I was never really think about them when I was watching Firefly.

I simply said that Dollhouse is a lot less original than Whedon's other works.

Third, did you even read my posts? I'm not saying that Dollhouse only took basic plot ideas from other sources. I'm saying that it took specific details from other sources. I'm not saying that an artist who paints a portrait of a woman is trying to copy Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa. However, if an artist paints a portrait, using the same style and materials as Leonardo da Vinci used, of a woman who happens to look a lot like the woman in Mona Lisa, sitting in a similar position, wearing similar clothes, and didn't paint the eyebrows then maybe it just might be possible that the artist was trying to imitate or copy the Mona Lisa.

HAL2100
December 6th, 2009, 08:26 PM
First of all, you're completely twisting my argument. I never said that stories can't be derivative. West Side Story is extremely derivative of Romeo and Juliet, it's pretty much a retelling of the story but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just can't be as unique as the original.

Second, I never even said that Dollhouse was bad because it was derivative. This is what I said:



I simply said that Dollhouse is a lot less original than Whedon's other works.

Third, did you even read my posts? I'm not saying that Dollhouse only took basic plot ideas from other sources. I'm saying that it took specific details from other sources. I'm not saying that an artist who paints a portrait of a woman is trying to copy Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa. However, if an artist paints a portrait, using the same style and materials as Leonardo da Vinci used, of a woman who happens to look a lot like the woman in Mona Lisa, sitting in a similar position, wearing similar clothes, and didn't paint the eyebrows then maybe it just might be possible that the artist was trying to imitate or copy the Mona Lisa.

Derivative is typically used in a negative fashion.

Giantevilhead
December 6th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Derivative is typically used in a negative fashion.

That doesn't change the fact that Dollhouse is more derivative than Whedon's other work.

Coronach
December 9th, 2009, 12:09 PM
I think it's a shame Dollhouse got cancelled. In my humble opinion, I felt it was really a good show...and it was only getting better in Season 2. Ah well :(

-Major Woody
December 9th, 2009, 08:14 PM
I saw it coming when FOX cancelled The Sarah Connor Chronicles last season.

badwolfSG
December 9th, 2009, 11:51 PM
I saw it coming when FOX cancelled The Sarah Connor Chronicles last season.

I saw Dollhouse and Sarah Connor Chronicles both being Cancelled, which is why I stopped watching them. I, personally, thought they were both great shows, but I just was getting feed up with getting really into a show and it being cancelled on me.

HAL2100
December 11th, 2009, 06:24 AM
I saw Dollhouse and Sarah Connor Chronicles both being Cancelled, which is why I stopped watching them. I, personally, thought they were both great shows, but I just was getting feed up with getting really into a show and it being cancelled on me.

At least they gave both a chance to succeed. 'Defying Gravity' was a great show with a lot of promise that ABC set up for failure from day one. Incredibly promising storyline.

magictrick
December 13th, 2009, 02:45 PM
Don't get why Joss still works with FOX after everything that's happened. I guess he wants exposure for his shows and in order to mainstream them he needs a big network. Although in this case can't really blame FOX. Dollhouse never seemed to gather as much support as Firefly.

Amalthea
December 13th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Don't get why Joss still works with FOX after everything that's happened. I guess he wants exposure for his shows and in order to mainstream them he needs a big network. Although in this case can't really blame FOX. Dollhouse never seemed to gather as much support as Firefly.

Well, in Joss' defense, the dweebs that canceled Firefly don't work at Fox anymore, they work at NBC. It's a whole new set of dweebs that have canceled Dollhouse.

jelgate
December 13th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Well, in Joss' defense, the dweebs that canceled Firefly don't work at Fox anymore, they work at NBC. It's a whole new set of dweebs that have canceled Dollhouse.

I think that is really fair. Unlike Firefly Dollhouse was given a chance. You can't blame Fox for all the failures.

HAL2100
December 14th, 2009, 10:25 AM
I think that is really fair. Unlike Firefly Dollhouse was given a chance. You can't blame Fox for all the failures.

No you can. The fundamental problem with the broadcast networks is that they want a hit right out the door. If a new show isn't a hit in the first 15 minutes of its first episode, its canceled. Exageration yes, but the point is that networks aren't willing to stick with a show.

In its first season, MASH wasn't that well received and finished at 47 overall, yet in its series finale remains the highest rated in history.

You also have nearsighted executives who don't consider the big picture. Case in point, NBC canceled Star Trek after three seasons and only later learned that while it never peaked higher then number 52, it consistently won the 16 to 39 demographic.

Giantevilhead
December 14th, 2009, 01:05 PM
The executives have their own jobs to worry about. It's not like television shows are cheap. We're talking at the very least $2 to $3 million per episode for an one hour primetime show. If you're investing $30+ million, don't you want to see some results as soon as possible? Not to mention the fact that they're not really using their own money, they have investors to worry about too. Don't forget the little problem with the screen actor's guild that almost ended up in a strike and oh yeah, the economic recession.

HAL2100
December 14th, 2009, 01:12 PM
The executives have their own jobs to worry about. It's not like television shows are cheap. We're talking at the very least $2 to $3 million per episode for an one hour primetime show. If you're investing $30+ million, don't you want to see some results as soon as possible? Not to mention the fact that they're not really using their own money, they have investors to worry about too. Don't forget the little problem with the screen actor's guild that almost ended up in a strike and oh yeah, the economic recession.

But as M*A*S*H demonstrates sometimes it takes time for a series to develop. I would suggest that if you are investing $30 million then that's argument enough to stick with a show to ensure it succeeds.

Also, I find it unlikely that a show like Dollhouse is running $2-$3 million per episode. Stark Trek:TNG ran $1M in 1987 dollars which is roughly $1.8 in 2008 dollars. Yes there's not that much difference between $1.8 M and $2M but Dollhouse is not a CGI heavy show plus costs associated with CGI have come down as well.

Giantevilhead
December 14th, 2009, 01:43 PM
But as M*A*S*H demonstrates sometimes it takes time for a series to develop. I would suggest that if you are investing $30 million then that's argument enough to stick with a show to ensure it succeeds.

Also, I find it unlikely that a show like Dollhouse is running $2-$3 million per episode. Stark Trek:TNG ran $1M in 1987 dollars which is roughly $1.8 in 2008 dollars. Yes there's not that much difference between $1.8 M and $2M but Dollhouse is not a CGI heavy show plus costs associated with CGI have come down as well.

M*A*S*H was a half hour sitcom and it was cheap to make, so were other shows of its kind like Friends and Seinfeld. Those shows basically had three or four sets, their props were easily acquired, they certainly didn't have to make any of the props, their sets were pretty easy to build, they rarely shot at different locations, and all the actors did was talk for 95% of the show with some occasional slapstick. They didn't become expensive until their popularity skyrocketed and the actors began demanding ungodly salaries.

$2 to $3 million per episode for Dollhouse is a low ball estimate. Also, it's not the CGI that's expensive, CGI is actually a lot cheaper now. However, the cost of practical effects like car crashes, fist fights, gunfire, explosions, etc., haven't changed and Dollhouse use a lot of those. There's also the locations, props, sets, training for actors, insurance, etc. I doubt the actors in M*A*S*H had to learn martial arts and they probably didn't have to be insured against injuries resulting from stunts like concussions and broken bones. In action heavy shows, insurance can cost up to 5% of the total budget.

Also there's this:

MGM and Sci Fi loved the spinoff idea but weren't willing to end "SG-1," which was garnering more than 2 million viewers during its Friday-night time slot. Instead, the movie idea was rewritten as the finale of Season 6, and "Stargate Atlantis" launched in 2004 as its own show. In order to keep costs down -- two-thirds of "SG-1's" $2.2 million-per-episode budget is covered by MGM, with the remainder picked up by Sci Fi -- "Atlantis" and "SG-1" share soundstages and production crew.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003018898

Cable shows are generally a lot cheaper than network shows and SG1's production cost was $2.2 million in 2006 when the article was written.

HAL2100
December 14th, 2009, 03:18 PM
M*A*S*H was a half hour sitcom and it was cheap to make, so were other shows of its kind like Friends and Seinfeld. Those shows basically had three or four sets, their props were easily acquired, they certainly didn't have to make any of the props, their sets were pretty easy to build, they rarely shot at different locations, and all the actors did was talk for 95% of the show with some occasional slapstick. They didn't become expensive until their popularity skyrocketed and the actors began demanding ungodly salaries.

$2 to $3 million per episode for Dollhouse is a low ball estimate. Also, it's not the CGI that's expensive, CGI is actually a lot cheaper now. However, the cost of practical effects like car crashes, fist fights, gunfire, explosions, etc., haven't changed and Dollhouse use a lot of those. There's also the locations, props, sets, training for actors, insurance, etc. I doubt the actors in M*A*S*H had to learn martial arts and they probably didn't have to be insured against injuries resulting from stunts like concussions and broken bones. In action heavy shows, insurance can cost up to 5% of the total budget.

Also there's this:

MGM and Sci Fi loved the spinoff idea but weren't willing to end "SG-1," which was garnering more than 2 million viewers during its Friday-night time slot. Instead, the movie idea was rewritten as the finale of Season 6, and "Stargate Atlantis" launched in 2004 as its own show. In order to keep costs down -- two-thirds of "SG-1's" $2.2 million-per-episode budget is covered by MGM, with the remainder picked up by Sci Fi -- "Atlantis" and "SG-1" share soundstages and production crew.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003018898

Cable shows are generally a lot cheaper than network shows and SG1's production cost was $2.2 million in 2006 when the article was written.

You're still missing the underlying concept - TV Networks aren't willing to stick by a show and give it a chance to.

Giantevilhead
December 14th, 2009, 04:35 PM
You're still missing the underlying concept - TV Networks aren't willing to stick by a show and give it a chance to.

You're still missing the underlying concept that they can't just blow $60 to $70 million on a project over 3 or 4 years and hope that the viewers will eventually increase to the point where they can make back their investment.

It would be like if your boss told you that he's going to cut your salary to almost nothing for the next three years but after that he'll double it for as long as you work for him. That may sound like a good deal but what are you going to do for those three years where your salary is cut? It's not like you can just forget about food, shelter, health care, and family for those three years.

Then there's the added problem that network executives aren't just using their own money, they have investors to worry about. The more you borrow, the harder it is to hold off your creditors. Just try going to a bank, borrow $20,000 and when they ask you to pay you back, tell them that you'll pay them back in 3 years with triple the interest but for now you need an additional $20,000 every year until then. See how fast they send the repo squad after you.

HAL2100
December 14th, 2009, 08:13 PM
You're still missing the underlying concept that they can't just blow $60 to $70 million on a project over 3 or 4 years and hope that the viewers will eventually increase to the point where they can make back their investment.


Everyone knows that the real value of a show is in syndication. The general consensus is that takes a minimum of 60-ish episodes for syndication, ideally 100. At a million an episode you're looking at an investment of $60 million - $100 million for the show to earn back its investment in syndication.

Furthermore, the $60M-$70M isn't blown because you have to factor in ad revenue from the advertisers. Yes, ratings directly impact rates for a show, but you will not find a network that gives away 100% of the available time. The network may not make a killing on the show, but they're certainly not loosing their shirts.

Giantevilhead
December 14th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Everyone knows that the real value of a show is in syndication. The general consensus is that takes a minimum of 60-ish episodes for syndication, ideally 100. At a million an episode you're looking at an investment of $60 million - $100 million for the show to earn back its investment in syndication.

Furthermore, the $60M-$70M isn't blown because you have to factor in ad revenue from the advertisers. Yes, ratings directly impact rates for a show, but you will not find a network that gives away 100% of the available time. The network may not make a killing on the show, but they're certainly not loosing their shirts.

First of all, as mentioned before, an episode costs $2 million at the very least. Also, the number of episodes needed for stripped syndication is 15 weeks without repeats, which is at least 75 episodes. That means the very minimum they need to invest is $150 million, although in reality it'll probably be closer to $200 million.

They clearly aren't making the money back from ad revenue nor are they getting much from DVD sales. Dollhouse obviously won't bankrupt Fox. Heck, 20th Century Fox Television earns about $1 billion per year, the company probably won't blink over those losses. However, the executives who made those decisions are going out the door fast. Just because a company is big and can absorb big losses with no trouble doesn't mean it's willing to accept those losses.

The thing you have to get straight here is that the Fox company is not some monolithic entity that makes every decision about every show. It's beholden to its investors. The reason why Fox was willing to take risks back when it first came on was because there was a much smaller number of investors who knew that putting money in this brand new network to compete against ABC, CBS, and NBC was a risk. Now that it is one of the big networks, it has a lot more investors, most of whom do not want the company to take too many risks. They are not acceptable of losses and any executive who can't make back their investment is getting the boot unless that executive is extremely trustworthy and has been able to produce hits. Not to mention the fact that getting a show to syndication generally requires some long term planning. Just look at what they're doing with "Til Death," that show's ratings were always low but it was decided pretty early on that they were going to let it run its course so it could get into syndication.

lystelle
December 15th, 2009, 10:27 PM
I am so very bummed that Dollhouse got cancelled. I really thought that the show was even better this season, and I loved season 1. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...it is Fox.

I'm glad that they're still playing out all the episodes, since we'll have to no doubt wait forever before it's released on DVD. Hopefully there will be some excellent special features.

Replicator Todd
December 16th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Joss needs to experiment with cable....or NBC.

Giantevilhead
December 16th, 2009, 11:25 PM
Joss needs to get his next show on a premium channel. His fan base is simply not big enough to support a primetime network show. However, those fans are probably dedicated enough to subscribe to HBO or Showtime for a Whedon show. The 2 to 2.5 million fans may not be enough for network TV but 2 to 2.5 million new subscriptions for a premium channel is a lot. Also, premium channels give their shows much more creative freedom and they don't have censors.

HAL2100
December 17th, 2009, 11:36 AM
I think that SyFy should pick it up.

retiredat44
December 20th, 2009, 12:26 PM
even thouygh I am stil very angry with the cancellation of TSCC, Dollhouse has finally got going, into a real plot, instead of just being about the sex trade... it's a shame they took so long to get going.. I wonder what person decided to wait till it was too late to put it in 2nd gear.. the way this world is going, that idiot probably got a raise..
:mckay:

Replicator Todd
December 20th, 2009, 11:11 PM
I think that SyFy should pick it up.

:zelenka25:

MathiasE
December 21st, 2009, 09:09 PM
even thouygh I am stil very angry with the cancellation of TSCC, Dollhouse has finally got going, into a real plot, instead of just being about the sex trade... it's a shame they took so long to get going.. I wonder what person decided to wait till it was too late to put it in 2nd gear.. the way this world is going, that idiot probably got a raise..
:mckay:

While it was still alot about the sex trade the show got alot better after the first 6 episodes of Season1 when FOX stopped meddling and let Whedon do what he wanted with the show.

LunaSolTierra
December 26th, 2009, 11:42 PM
I think that SyFy should pick it up.

I completely agree.

ShadowMaat
December 28th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Out of curiosity how many times has Skiffy actually "saved" a show? I know they did it for Stargate, but have they done it before? Or since? It seems like every time a genre show dies someone says, "Skiffy should pick it up" but how likely is that, really? Especially in Dollhouse's case, where the ratings were always scraping the bottom of the barrel?

Angela V
December 29th, 2009, 11:21 PM
After seeing The Attic episode, Fox just pisses me off more. What are they going to do next? Cancel Fringe? Then become the top network that kills sci-fi shows before they should?

Well I'm almost done watching Angel on DVD. Got Buffy the Vampire Slayer Chosen Collection for Christmas so will be working on that next. Can get my geeky Joss fix somehow! :samanime51:

ShadowMaat
December 30th, 2009, 07:27 PM
After seeing The Attic episode, Fox just pisses me off more. What are they going to do next? Cancel Fringe?
Except Fringe is a hugely popular hit with fat ratings and lots of fans, while Dollhouse fans... could probably be described as a fringe. ;)

I can't really blame FOX for killing Dollhouse and while I'll miss it (mostly because of Enver) I can't help looking at the recent eps and thinking, "where was this level of awesome in the beginning of the season? Or the beginning of LAST season when it would have counted?" Fox meddled, yes, but it still took time for things to pick up.

Sp!der
January 8th, 2010, 06:37 AM
are they finished with airing in the us? will there be any conclusion? or whats the news now? have the first season on dvd, shame what fox does to whedon. after episode six or smth its really getting awesome especially the future episode!

HAL2100
January 8th, 2010, 07:57 AM
are they finished with airing in the us? will there be any conclusion? or whats the news now? have the first season on dvd, shame what fox does to whedon. after episode six or smth its really getting awesome especially the future episode!

?

Sp!der
January 8th, 2010, 08:42 AM
?

??

HAL2100
January 8th, 2010, 09:31 AM
??

What future episode?

An earlier post made a comment about a 'future episode' that was in spoiler tags.

ShadowMaat
January 8th, 2010, 07:39 PM
Epitaph 1, the DVD-only sooper seekrit ep. Although technically I think it's on itunes and similar places, too. Although spoiler tagging "future episode" is a bit random, IMO. I'm also not sure that E-1 counts as spoilerific anyway. I think all of last season should be untagged by this point.

HAL2100
January 8th, 2010, 08:06 PM
Epitaph 1, the DVD-only sooper seekrit ep. Although technically I think it's on itunes and similar places, too. Although spoiler tagging "future episode" is a bit random, IMO. I'm also not sure that E-1 counts as spoilerific anyway. I think all of last season should be untagged by this point.

So an unaired episode?

Osiris
January 9th, 2010, 01:52 PM
Yes, and the series finale will be the follow-up, Epitath 2: The Return.

TheHammond
September 1st, 2010, 10:12 AM
If it wasn't for Fox, Joss Whedon wouldn't even have a career. I don't know if anyone knows this but all of Whedon's shows were produced by Fox. Even Buffy and Angel were produced by Fox.

People need to understand that this is business. Complaining about Fox canceling a low rated show while creating more reality shows is like complaining about how McDonald's sells Big Macs instead of artichokes.

Claps. I mean imagining a show should have to get ratings, well the very idea.

Don't they realise he's Joss Whedon? They should be happy that he graces them with his presence.

TheHammond
September 1st, 2010, 10:15 AM
It was only a matter of time. I wonder if Fox will actually admit that they made a major screw up in keeping Dollhouse running and cancelling TSCC. I doubt it but i'd laugh if they did, the entire network is run by a bunch of money-grabbing <snip> yuppies that don't have a single clue what they're doing.

Why?

1) Dollhouse beat TSCC most nights they were together.

2) TSCC was MORE expensive to make.

3) FOX get to keep all the money from DH DVD sales, they don't get anything from TSCC.

4) FOX got TSCC at a discount as advertising for the new Terminator film, the discount wouldn't have been there for the season just gone.

Seems like the smart move to keep the cheaper better performing show.

TheHammond
September 1st, 2010, 10:16 AM
We just had the fourth episode of season one on in Belgium today, in fact, it was on till 2 hours ago.

I like Dollhouse... And Eliza.

Bummer another Joss serie gets axed, and another Eliza show.

The show was never going to be a hit, it was a bad idea. I love Eliza, but she should have run away screaming, America
was never going to enjoy a show such as DH.