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Control_Chair
November 10th, 2009, 02:06 PM
I am wondering what people’s opinions are on Telford and the two scientists disconnecting the stones when it looked like the Destiny was going to explode due to attempting to dial the gate while the ship was in the star? I can understand them not wanting to die on the ship but given that it was their fault should they have stayed and attempted to fix the problem? Young seemed pretty p***** with Telford saying something like “you turned tail and ran”. So do people think he did the right thing?

DigiFluid
November 10th, 2009, 02:08 PM
As much as I want to dislike them for turning tail and run, the guy at the briefing was right--there's no reason to have 3 more people die.

escyos
November 10th, 2009, 02:10 PM
As much as I want to dislike them for turning tail and run, the guy at the briefing was right--there's no reason to have 3 more people die.

i think it looked cowardly

DigiFluid
November 10th, 2009, 02:12 PM
Well, of course it looked cowardly. But I still think it makes sense.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 10th, 2009, 02:27 PM
He possibly could have stuck around longer to try to show some leadership skills, but there was no reason for him to die needlessly.

godcity
November 10th, 2009, 03:21 PM
I think that the Destiny crew has lost any respect they had for Telford and will ignore him from now on.

Lightning Ducj
November 10th, 2009, 03:37 PM
I think that the Destiny crew has lost any respect they had for Telford and will ignore him from now on.

They can't....at least those on the ship that are military. You don't simple ignore a Colonel because you don't like him


I agree it looked cowardly but I admit it was probably the right thing to do

KEK
November 10th, 2009, 03:43 PM
He did the right thing, no matter how it looked. As far as he was concerned everyone was about to die, leadership wasn't an issue, so there was no point him, along with two other people dying when they didn't need to.

Lord Hurin
November 10th, 2009, 03:45 PM
They can't....at least those on the ship that are military. You don't simple ignore a Colonel because you don't like him


I agree it looked cowardly but I admit it was probably the right thing to do

I hate to initiate a "rabble rabble rabble, SG-1 is the bestest!" debate, but I think O'Neill would probably have stayed behind to lay in the bed he made.

I also still think that those orders were coming from the President/ IOA and O'Neill was reluctant on them. He doesn't seem to hold Telford in high regard.

The "captain" goes down with the ship. That's not just a symbolic gesture; it's a sign of respect to the ship and crew. Telford wanted to be on Destiny so damn bad, let him die there. The scientists, not so much, but their reputations would likely have been in tatters when they returned anyway.

Saquist
November 10th, 2009, 03:47 PM
A real leader...a person that has taken command will follow his troops into the battlefield he directs them to.

By Telford leaving...and giving up he has confirmed despite what his orders were, despite that dying there would have been pointless, he proved he was not interested in being their leader, but being the commander.

P-90_177
November 10th, 2009, 03:47 PM
You know I have a big problem with saying Telford is a coward. He is in the end a US Airforce Colonel....if anything should be proof that he isn't it's that. So it isn't cowardice that made him leave. Having said that he is quite cold, logical and calculating and naturally since he had an out human insticnt would tell him to get out. However he would have also determine that there was no sense him dying with everyone else. Afterall as young said earlier in the episode, most likely whoever is connected to the bodies on erths side would most likely die too. so whatever way you cut it, if telford and the other two had stayed then 3 extra people would be dead needlessly. In the end he made the logical call.....albeit pretty cold and heartless but near as I can figure he doesn't exactly have a special attachment to anyone on that ship.

DigiFluid
November 10th, 2009, 03:52 PM
You know I have a big problem with saying Telford is a coward. He is in the end a US Airforce Colonel....if anything should be proof that he isn't it's that.
I agree with everything else you've said, but I take (minor) issue with this. Just because someone's in the military doesn't automatically make them heroic. Neither does rank; "failing upward" applies just as much in the military as it does in the private working world.

P-90_177
November 10th, 2009, 04:09 PM
I agree with everything else you've said, but I take (minor) issue with this. Just because someone's in the military doesn't automatically make them heroic. Neither does rank; "failing upward" applies just as much in the military as it does in the private working world.

i didn't say heroic. i merely said not cowardly. ;) and i agree you can fail upwards in the military or get promoted for just pencil pushing but telford doesn't strike me as that kind of officer. i think he's most likely a great soldier.....just a bad leader of men.

EllieVee
November 10th, 2009, 04:28 PM
i didn't say heroic. i merely said not cowardly. ;) and i agree you can fail upwards in the military or get promoted for just pencil pushing but telford doesn't strike me as that kind of officer. i think he's most likely a great soldier.....just a bad leader of men.

Well, it is a bit 'Icarus is where we put the screw ups', though. Young's appalling and Telford's not much better. I realise there can only be one Jack O'Neill but sheesh, they couldn't ask the Asgard for some clones?

Lord Hurin
November 10th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Well, it is a bit 'Icarus is where we put the screw ups', though. Young's appalling and Telford's not much better. I realise there can only be one Jack O'Neill but sheesh, they couldn't ask the Asgard for some clones?

How is Young "appalling"? In what sense do you mean this?

P-90_177
November 10th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Well, it is a bit 'Icarus is where we put the screw ups', though. Young's appalling and Telford's not much better. I realise there can only be one Jack O'Neill but sheesh, they couldn't ask the Asgard for some clones?

I wouldn't say Young is appalling in any way shape or form. In fact I think he is potentially better than jack. Certainly better than Shep. However Young lacks confidence and he also has problems dealing with the situation. Fact of the matter is as much as soldiers are trained to handle even the toughest situation it's not exactly common to be stuck on a rust bucket of a starship, billions of light years from home with limited supplies and 80+ people, most of which are civilians.I suspect Young may have also had someone die on his watch because of an order and that's made him second guess his decisions. (hence lack of confidence.) However the big difference between young and telford is while telford is a good soldier but a bad leader of men, Young IS a great leader of men. He's someone you'll respect and listen to because you know he'd lay down his own life to accomplish his mission, which at this stage is to get those people home.

AtlantisRules!!!
November 10th, 2009, 04:39 PM
From a military point of veiw... if the Destiny would have exploded.. then the casualty number would be down three.

from a normal point of veiw.. They could have been folowing orders... or just cowards. :P

creed462
November 10th, 2009, 04:39 PM
While it may have been logical, he no longer has any credibility. No mater weather they have to follow his orders or now, they no longer respect him. So moral is down when he is on board. This would effect their performance and everything else. Also the civilian may refuse to do what he says. It will be a sore spot from now on

P-90_177
November 10th, 2009, 04:44 PM
While it may have been logical, he no longer has any credibility. No mater weather they have to follow his orders or now, they no longer respect him. So moral is down when he is on board. This would effect their performance and everything else. Also the civilian may refuse to do what he says. It will be a sore spot from now on

well of course. hence the reason why young is back in command and staying there. part of the reason for the whole cherade with the gate almost exploding was to shame telford and ensure they wouldn't try to set him up as a more permanent commander again.

ckwongau
November 10th, 2009, 06:09 PM
He is in the end a US Airforce Colonel....if anything should be proof that he isn't it's that. So it isn't cowardice that made him leave. Having said that he is quite cold, logical and calculating and naturally since he had an out human insticnt would tell him to get out. However he would have also determine that there was no sense him dying with everyone else.


Yes , self preservation is a basic human instinct,and even human right.
But Telford should have tell the crew about his bail out plan in advance.
In his only defence ,Telford probably argue he need the crew's full confidence to execute the plan .
But when he cut and run in silence without telling the crew, without answering Scott's question
Scott said :Where the hell are you going ?
If Telford was following order or protocol ,he should at least have the decency to tell Scott where he was going ,or telling Scott ,that Telford is relieving his own command , and Scott Would be in charge until Young return in a few moment.
But no, Telford cut and run in silence, the crew was left in a confuse state,
wondering or believe Telford and his people was going to fix the problem,
Telford should tell the truth ,
like i am sorry , we are leaving.He had plenty of time ,because they were not running ,more like they were in walking in hurry and in silence.Give the crew the truth ,and they had a few more moment to fix the problem themselve, instead of a few more moment of confusion .

Were Telford and his people afraid the crew would not let them leave?
That could be his defence, but it only show him how insincere and insecure about the people he said he is trying to save.If he doesn't have faith of the people he try to command , what businese does he had being there in the first place.

Young was right when he said

Colonel Telford removed not only any sense of command but the two scientists that designed and implemented the programme that was causing the crisis

Telford is not a coward ,just human , just not the right stuff for leadership.

If a fighter jet 's engine is failing, Does the pilot have the right to bail out ?
Yes!
But the decent thing the pilot would do is to make sure the plane is as far away from civilian as possible before bail out.
I think there were incident in USA, when pilot bail out and plane crash into civilian homes and kill civilian.

A few months ago a Chinese PLA pilot was hail as national hero when his J-10's engine fail , he refuse to bail out and flyaway from civilian poplution ,without any engine power he glided the plane and land the plane safely.Saving himself, the plane and many civilian lives.
It would be embarrassing for Chinese governement to admit a engine failure their most advance fighter ,but the pilot action was so heroic ,that he was publicly decorated as hero .

My point is decent ,heroic and selfless action is the different between heroic leader and normal human.

Captain Obvious
November 10th, 2009, 06:15 PM
While it may have been logical, he no longer has any credibility.Also the civilian may refuse to do what he says. It will be a sore spot from now on

Not only will the refuse to do what he says, I would bet that we start hearing the phrase " I am going to run this by Dr. Rush" a LOT more often.

Eternal Density
November 10th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Hypothetically, what would have happened if Telford and his scientists hadn't retreated?
I guess they would have soon enough realised that the ship wasn't actually blowing up and realised Rush was putting on a bit of theatre...

Replicator Todd
November 10th, 2009, 08:40 PM
Telford's actions just gave the crew more respect towards Rush.

Encoder
November 10th, 2009, 09:16 PM
Telford did what was best for Telford and that's that.

You could say he was following orders but in the end, he comes across as that kind of guy!

:sheppard:

ION'NOI
November 10th, 2009, 11:24 PM
There are cowards in the military. just like every other emotion it is part of human nature. to say the military is 100% non cowardly is ridiculous. you also have to realize the position the crew of destiny is in. they were forced to try this regardless of the risk and the people implementing the idea just cut and ran. These people are alone and now they feel more alone.

prion
November 11th, 2009, 08:31 AM
In the end, Telford was responsible for the two civvies with him, so he had to bring them back. And I suppose, realistically, only an idiot would stay on board a ship about to explode. However, doesn't excuse his quick 'bug-out' without a single word, just running off for all intent and purpose.

So while Young can call him a coward, I don't think his action is going to end up behind bars. Which was obvious, since he appeared on Mrs. Young's doorstep...

Lightning Ducj
November 11th, 2009, 09:09 AM
Telford's actions just gave the crew more respect towards Rush.

Not so sure on that. A sizable amount of the crew were willing to try the plan and Rush sabotaged it. Rush *thinks* the plan would've failed but he may have been wrong, and even if he was wrong, does anyone trust him that far to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's telling the truth

Saquist
November 12th, 2009, 03:52 AM
I agree with everything else you've said, but I take (minor) issue with this. Just because someone's in the military doesn't automatically make them heroic. Neither does rank; "failing upward" applies just as much in the military as it does in the private working world.

Indeed.
I don't see it as an act of cowardice yet. But consider the story.
Rush had engineered the whole thing to get him off the ship.
If Telford had the courage to stay they would have engineered the confrontation between them once the truth came out and him staying aboard would have fortified the crew to his authority.

Instead he followed "orders" and left when he could have sent back the scientist instead. I chose to believe because of Telfords other actions that he is a coward.

I'm not sure about the actions he's about to take with Young's wife but, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling.

Kick-Kinsey
November 12th, 2009, 03:58 AM
Telford is not a coward ,just human , just not the right stuff for leadership.

If a fighter jet 's engine is failing, Does the pilot have the right to bail out ?
Yes!
But the decent thing the pilot would do is to make sure the plane is as far away from civilian as possible before bail out.
I think there were incident in USA, when pilot bail out and plane crash into civilian homes and kill civilian.

A few months ago a Chinese PLA pilot was hail as national hero when his J-10's engine fail , he refuse to bail out and flyaway from civilian poplution ,without any engine power he glided the plane and land the plane safely.Saving himself, the plane and many civilian lives.
It would be embarrassing for Chinese governement to admit a engine failure their most advance fighter ,but the pilot action was so heroic ,that he was publicly decorated as hero .

My point is decent ,heroic and selfless action is the different between heroic leader and normal human.

Telford and his eggheads were not going to save anyone by going down with the ship. It has been suggested before if one person dies when the body stones have their minds switched then unfortunately both people will die.
If the ship was Doomed then Telford couldn't have been a hero no matter what he did

Not only would 75+ people have died, you would have also lost
Eli + egghead 1
Chloe + egghead 2
Col Telford + Young

Anyway the whole doomsday thing never happened but I think by the way LDP's character is wrote, he's a person we are supposed to hate.

wargrafix
November 12th, 2009, 06:18 AM
Telford was a coward. Can't do anything right. I would never accept leadership from him in any situation

Infinite-Possibilities
November 12th, 2009, 06:29 AM
You know, I have a feeling had he stayed on a doomed ship there would eventually be a complaint topic from at least one person that "Telford is an idiot! Why would he just stay to die when he could have saved himself?! And they are supposed to trust this guy's leadership now!?"

Control_Chair
November 12th, 2009, 09:08 AM
I can agree with what a lot of people are saying about him dying along with everyone else would be pointless, however the way I think he left without saying a word to anyone was just plain wrong. Also there is no way he can command the Destiny now the crew simply won’t trust him, would you trust a commander who flees when things are going wrong? All he managed to do is to strengthen Young’s position as the commander, better to trust the colonel who is willing to give his life to save others than to trust the one who leaves you to die.

Saquist
November 12th, 2009, 09:18 AM
Exactly.
He's military. I wouldn't have left and I'm not even in the military.
I'm surrounded by military guys right now, I'll ask them they're opinion.

Saquist
November 12th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Okay they guys here say there is never any justification for abandoning a command.

(wow that was simple)

ckwongau
November 13th, 2009, 02:36 AM
If Telford had waste about 2 second to say something like
I am sorry ,i am leaving then run like the wind

Nobody could fault him for leaving ,nobody could ask him to not save himself, he could still be consider a hero.(in the very vey wide definition )

But what he did was
quickly walk away in silence, not running but in hurry, he had more than enough time to say a few word , and then run.But he just walk quickly away in silence.Ignore Scott's question, ignore everyone else on board
The crew were left in confusion, some of the crew probably still believe their brave commander Telford left to try to fix the situation.

A few word in that situation was the difference between a decent man and a snake.

Starrtom
November 15th, 2009, 02:53 PM
This is why I am enjoying SGU so much, it has given us all an incredible amount of difficult and interesting topics to discuss and read peoples opinions about. None of them seem black or white just lots of shades of grey, and thats great.:)

Ann_Ominous
November 15th, 2009, 03:23 PM
I agree with everything else you've said, but I take (minor) issue with this. Just because someone's in the military doesn't automatically make them heroic. Neither does rank; "failing upward" applies just as much in the military as it does in the private working world.

I recently found out the my college ex-fiance retired from the army 5 years ago as a Lt Colonel. I never saw any great leadership skills in him. The guy was so much the shy quite type. But, he had been the head whatever of his high school ROTC, so maybe there was something I just never saw.

J_schinderlin56
November 15th, 2009, 09:38 PM
I think that the Destiny crew has lost any respect they had for Telford and will ignore him from now on.

Telford is a total Jack Ass.

His retreat from the destiny made Senator Kensey look courageous.

Then he has nerve to go to Col. Young's house and help himself to a fellow officer's wife?????

Seriously!!

They should feed this guy to Todd the Wraith. I mean, we have to keep Todd's strength up somehow don't we?

J_schinderlin56
November 15th, 2009, 09:43 PM
And +1 in Karma to Rush for getting Telford to show everyone his ass.

They should give Greer a medal for punching Telford in the face.

gatefanjo-m
November 20th, 2009, 05:43 AM
I'm interested to see if Telford ever finds out that this was a ruse. I'm sure he still has loyal soldiers on the Destiny who will eventually leak the information to him. I wonder what his counter-defense will be.

Saquist
November 20th, 2009, 02:57 PM
In comparison in this episode of SG1 where an asteroid is about to hit Earth a officer implies with a look to General Hammond, inquiring if he's going to the Alpha site to save his life along with the others..

Hammond simply says. "I haven't been relieved of my command."

natyanayaki
November 26th, 2009, 02:47 PM
well of course. hence the reason why young is back in command and staying there. part of the reason for the whole cherade with the gate almost exploding was to shame telford and ensure they wouldn't try to set him up as a more permanent commander again.

I agree with you, especially the bolded portion. I also think it was a way for the writers to show, that the commanders on Earth really can't take full charge, because they can't know exactly what kinds of risks are appropriate to take aboard the Destiny. If something goes wrong, they can leave, which obviously isn't an option for the individuals actually stuck aboard. A good method to show why there will be a rift between Destiny and Earth-command.


I can agree with what a lot of people are saying about him dying along with everyone else would be pointless, however the way I think he left without saying a word to anyone was just plain wrong.

He's playing with the lives of the people on the ship, and he should let them know, if things don't go the way planned, we will abort. In fact, considering so many people aboard the Destiny are civilians, I don't understand why the military decisions have so much power. You would think there would be a government of some sort aboard the ship.


Okay they guys here say there is never any justification for abandoning a command.

(wow that was simple)

Exactly. It's what the military, the police and fire departments have in common. The idea that you don't abandon your people. Think about it, if Telford could leave so easily, how could any of the military personnel trust him if they were in the battle field. He might easily make a deal to save himself, while it could put other soldiers in danger. Having said that, I don't think Young is all that better. While Telford makes selfish decisions, Young seems incapable of making tough decisions.


I'm interested to see if Telford ever finds out that this was a ruse. I'm sure he still has loyal soldiers on the Destiny who will eventually leak the information to him. I wonder what his counter-defense will be.

While I'm sure many soldiers despise Rush, I don't see how any soldier could respect Telford at this point. I'm not in the military, I don't know much about it, but from every I've read, and heard (from friends), it seems to me that the basic mentality within the military is the idea that soldiers need to stick together to protect themselves, or even if there's a legitimate reason not to stick together, the soldier in command should respect the soldier under him/her enough to explain his actions. Honestly, Telford is so confident in himself, so conceited that he doesn't respect his underlings. I hate that we're supposed to hate Telford, it's just b/w writing, but it doesn't bother me too much because it's just more a reason to get rid of the stones.


In comparison in this episode of SG1 where an asteroid is about to hit Earth a officer implies with a look to General Hammond, inquiring if he's going to the Alpha site to save his life along with the others..

Hammond simply says. "I haven't been relieved of my command."

YAY HAMMOND!

Pharaoh Atem
November 26th, 2009, 02:48 PM
telefording running didn't surprise me. the other 2 running did

Tanie
November 28th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Okay they guys here say there is never any justification for abandoning a command.

(wow that was simple)

Exactly!

Telford has now shown his true colours to everyone on the Destiny, so I really think it'll be very difficult for him to gain their trust back - if at all.

Jack didn't seem impressed with him either at the debriefing they had.

And then to go to Emily's (Young's wife) place to I can only assume do the horizontal mambo, was just WRONG on so many levels.