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nlcol
November 7th, 2009, 12:33 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape and yet now telfords body has been used for sex no one shows any outrage at the fact that he was raped why their such a gap in society where we still believe only girls get raped or is it just that shes a lesbian? telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged i read alot of angry posts about the camille thing and yet now not one seems like alot of ppl have double standards

Lord Kira
November 7th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Telford is getting his own revenge, I think. At the end when he went to see Young's wife, I think he is going to sleep with her while pretending to be Young.

Vapor
November 7th, 2009, 01:01 AM
Several people have mentioned how much they disagreed with what Young did. It's all over the general discussion thread.

ZoSo
November 7th, 2009, 01:15 AM
Telford is getting his own revenge, I think. At the end when he went to see Young's wife, I think he is going to sleep with her while pretending to be Young.

Yep. That's pretty shallow if you ask me. I don't think its out of revenge either (I don't think its a big deal to use another guys body for sex like that; I wouldn't care, as long as its not some random chick like if Eli hooked up with that girl in the bar). He just wants some free poon. Hopefully Young's wife is smart enough to realize its not really Young. In which case he'd get in some big trouble.

Captain Obvious
November 7th, 2009, 01:22 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape and yet now telfords body has been used for sex no one shows any outrage at the fact that he was raped why their such a gap in society where we still believe only girls get raped or is it just that shes a lesbian? telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged i read alot of angry posts about the camille thing and yet now not one seems like alot of ppl have double standards

Because no one knew about it ahead of time. The only reasons there are so much outrage is because no one has seen the context and because it gives certain axe grinders a reason to scream about the show.

I personally hope the future wray/rush scene is tasteful, artistic and tender- just so people look more foolish than ever for crying about it.

Vapor
November 7th, 2009, 01:22 AM
I don't think its a big deal to use another guys body for sex like that; I wouldn't care

You don't care, really?

What if he got the girl pregnant with what would technically be your child? What about STDs? What if he chose to sleep with a man instead? What if he performed any acts using your body that could effect your health without even being aware of what he was doing to it?

Infinite-Possibilities
November 7th, 2009, 02:12 AM
While I suppose I do understand Young motivations, it was pretty outrageous.

I was like "Whaa?"

kymeric
November 7th, 2009, 02:17 AM
Apparently its funny when its a guy but a horiffic violation when its a girl. There is no difference between this and Lucious. Im glad this happened to point out the sextist hypocracy of gender sexual attitudes.

And i still lol @ Lucious

EarthandBeyond
November 7th, 2009, 02:19 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape and yet now telfords body has been used for sex no one shows any outrage at the fact that he was raped why their such a gap in society where we still believe only girls get raped or is it just that shes a lesbian? telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged i read alot of angry posts about the camille thing and yet now not one seems like alot of ppl have double standards

Telford is in a military. They are trained for all sorter situations. Right?

MattSilver 3k
November 7th, 2009, 02:21 AM
Apparently its funny when its a guy but a horiffic violation when its a girl. There is no difference between this and Lucious. Im glad this happened to point out the sextist hypocracy of gender sexual attitudes.

And i still lol @ Lucious

Huh, whose Lucious?

Anyway, Lucius aside, I wasn't outraged at either the news of Camille's body swap later on, nor of the whole Telford/Young/Emily dealie. Guess my morals are flimsy or non-existent...

g.o.d
November 7th, 2009, 02:25 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape and yet now telfords body has been used for sex no one shows any outrage at the fact that he was raped why their such a gap in society where we still believe only girls get raped or is it just that shes a lesbian? telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged i read alot of angry posts about the camille thing and yet now not one seems like alot of ppl have double standards

looks like, He didn't mind it at all :D

missmobius
November 7th, 2009, 02:31 AM
Yep. That's pretty shallow if you ask me. I don't think its out of revenge either (I don't think its a big deal to use another guys body for sex like that; I wouldn't care, as long as its not some random chick like if Eli hooked up with that girl in the bar). He just wants some free poon. Hopefully Young's wife is smart enough to realize its not really Young. In which case he'd get in some big trouble.

and what if Telford has been having an affair with Young's wife for some time???? Now that sounds more like a soap opera storyline, after all this is a soap opera we're talking about isn't it?

g.o.d
November 7th, 2009, 02:33 AM
a good scifi show is also a soap opera in some form. Ignoring the fact, people have feeling for each other, could have sex :eek: is very stupid

missmobius
November 7th, 2009, 02:35 AM
a good scifi show is also a soap opera in some form. Ignoring the fact, people have feeling for each other, could have sex :eek: is very stupid

Well IMO Star Trek, SG1 SGA were never soap operas, they were about adventures and science/technology to help in those adventures.

SGU is MOST DEFINITELY a SOAP OPERA!

g.o.d
November 7th, 2009, 02:39 AM
Well IMO Star Trek, SG1 SGA were never soap operas, they were about adventures and science/technology to help in those adventures.

SGU is MOST DEFINITELY a SOAP OPERA!

well, since I think ST and SGA are awful scifi shows, I don't care

haloplayer
November 7th, 2009, 02:58 AM
Wow Young, Raping Telford's body. If this was a Girl there would be an OUTCRY. What Young did was IMMORALLY WRONG. Where was his conscience in this situation?

Man and i was starting to like Young.

ZoSo
November 7th, 2009, 03:06 AM
You don't care, really?

What if he got the girl pregnant with what would technically be your child? What about STDs? What if he chose to sleep with a man instead? What if he performed any acts using your body that could effect your health without even being aware of what he was doing to it?

I said "as long as its not some random chick". Read the whole damn thing, don't just stop when you get insulted, <Snipped by Mos>. Of course there's a whole host of situations where I wouldn't approve, but the guy might die or be lost forever and he was just doing his wife. Give him a ****in break.

EarthandBeyond
November 7th, 2009, 03:16 AM
Wow Young, Raping Telford's body. If this was a Girl there would be an OUTCRY. What Young did was IMMORALLY WRONG. Where was his conscience in this situation?

Man and i was starting to like Young.

When people get closer to the end of the rope, there views changes. Thats one of the Themes of this Soap-opera. Very BSG-like.

UniverseSizePlotHole
November 7th, 2009, 03:23 AM
I said "as long as its not some random chick". Read the whole damn thing, don't just stop when you get insulted,<Snipped by Moderator> Of course there's a whole host of situations where I wouldn't approve, but the guy might die or be lost forever and he was just doing his wife. Give him a ****in break.

Easy Chewie, the Quote button is your friend! :ronananime01:

joeynox
November 7th, 2009, 03:28 AM
Well when Eli said I wonder what they r doing with our bodies I figures young would go get some booty. I do see why so many people here think it was wrong for young to do that but what was the man supposed to do. He's trapped in another mans body because that man took over his and he is also in et land.he didn't know how long he had. What if thhe plan didn't work and he would have died, he wanted to be with his wife one last time.

talyn2k1
November 7th, 2009, 03:52 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape and yet now telfords body has been used for sex no one shows any outrage at the fact that he was raped why their such a gap in society where we still believe only girls get raped or is it just that shes a lesbian? telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged i read alot of angry posts about the camille thing and yet now not one seems like alot of ppl have double standards

Unfortunately, there are still a lot of double standards between men and women when it comes to sex. For instance, a man sleeps around and its no big deal. Woman does it, and she's a slut.
Plus, the subject of a man's body being used for sex without permission isn't half as likely to cause outrage as a woman's body being used in the same context, so the axe-grinders don't see it as a worthy cause to work up the anti-SGU camp.

MechaThor
November 7th, 2009, 03:54 AM
Who Cares? Its TV.

Personally I saw no problem with it, since its not like it was actually Telford, it was Young. No matter who's body you are in, you will still be you. The body after-all is just a vessel.

I actually found it very interesting how they played with the moral situations of being in another persons body in this episode. I also found the FTL temporary switching rather amusing.

Vapor
November 7th, 2009, 03:54 AM
Well IMO Star Trek, SG1 SGA were never soap operas, they were about adventures and science/technology to help in those adventures.

SGU is MOST DEFINITELY a SOAP OPERA!

What qualifies a show as a soap opera?


I said "as long as its not some random chick". Read the whole damn thing, don't just stop when you get insulted,<Snipped by Moderator>. Of course there's a whole host of situations where I wouldn't approve, but the guy might die or be lost forever and he was just doing his wife. Give him a ****in break.

Wow, that's an amazingly overblown reaction. Actually, I did read the whole thing, and I wasn't insulted at all until I saw this... display...

It's interesting that you suggest I read your whole post when the whole reason I asked you those questions was simply to get some clarification for what you left out in the first place.

Thanks for that.

meo3000
November 7th, 2009, 03:57 AM
It was wrong. You cant have it both ways.

But i must admit if i was Telford, swapping out of it and finding myself under Youngs naked and beautiful wife...

I mean, there worst things in life... he couldve come back to find himself drunk and puking all over the place.

Like Eli, i was hoping he would eat something that whats his name wouldve been allergic too, that wouldve been funny, and as much serious as using the body to sleep around.

ZoSo
November 7th, 2009, 05:20 AM
Wow, that's an amazingly overblown reaction. Actually, I did read the whole thing, and I wasn't insulted at all until I saw this... display...

It's interesting that you suggest I read your whole post when the whole reason I asked you those questions was simply to get some clarification for what you left out in the first place.

Thanks for that.

I'm sorry for the defensive reaction. But you quoted me and cut out the part that explains why I wouldn't care in this situation and then proceeded to list a bunch of extreme scenarios that had nothing to do with what we were talking about. You could've just asked me to elaborate like in your recent post. I've had a bad day when it comes to irrational people and people expecting me to read their minds so I took that as an attack. I do apologize.

Madwelshboy
November 7th, 2009, 05:28 AM
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of double standards between men and women when it comes to sex. For instance, a man sleeps around and its no big deal. Woman does it, and she's a slut.
Plus, the subject of a man's body being used for sex without permission isn't half as likely to cause outrage as a woman's body being used in the same context, so the axe-grinders don't see it as a worthy cause to work up the anti-SGU camp.

Quoted for truth.

When there was a similar discussion a few months ago, it was suggested that you can draw a really world comparison to drug-facilitated date rape e.g by Rohypnol which can result in excessive sedation. In both cases, the individual i.e. in this case Telford has not given any consent.

Lord Hurin
November 7th, 2009, 06:14 AM
When it happened, I had a "wtf?!" moment. I later reasoned that Young certainly didn't visit his wife with the intention of doing her. Just, you know, one thing leads to another...

I wasn't part of the other discussion, so i can't comment on it but as far as this being "rape" goes, you can't very well say that Telford was upset about it. He went back for more afterwards, didn't he? :D

segaxgames
November 7th, 2009, 06:17 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape and yet now telfords body has been used for sex no one shows any outrage at the fact that he was raped why their such a gap in society where we still believe only girls get raped or is it just that shes a lesbian? telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged i read alot of angry posts about the camille thing and yet now not one seems like alot of ppl have double standards

because it's our biggest fantasy to do our worst' enemy's wife/husband......

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 06:23 AM
Speaking of the awkwardness of the body swaps, what about the female scientist swapped with Chloe? When the LRC glitches happened and she gets her own body back for a few seconds...Chloe's gotten it drunk. That's gotta mess with your head...bad enough for you consciousness to suddenly switch locations but to end up in a drunk body has gotta be weird

segaxgames
November 7th, 2009, 06:25 AM
Watching this show makes me feel like a girl...... It's to melodramatic.

wargrafix
November 7th, 2009, 06:31 AM
One could argued that telford did not consent, but telfored stranded them on purpose. its fair game.

aretood2
November 7th, 2009, 07:36 AM
Who Cares? Its TV.

Personally I saw no problem with it, since its not like it was actually Telford, it was Young. No matter who's body you are in, you will still be you. The body after-all is just a vessel.

I actually found it very interesting how they played with the moral situations of being in another persons body in this episode. I also found the FTL temporary switching rather amusing.

Huh?
A body is not just a vessel, some would say it is a temple. It is still part of who you are. There is a reason why people are so protective of dead bodies. What if Telford was a virgin? His virginity would now be gone, lets say he secretly has an STD...what if that was his reason for showing up at the door if it was not Young.

What if Tleford has religious or moral objections? This is no different than date rape. Just cause your mind isn't their for you to expierence it or say no, it is still rape.

Yes the out cry over a gay lady was sexist or just done by people who are upset over SGA.

rlr149
November 7th, 2009, 07:46 AM
i never get outraged by fiction, science or otherwise

aretood2
November 7th, 2009, 07:51 AM
i never get outraged by fiction, science or otherwise

It is also strange that there is no outrage over Law and Order SVU...the who show is nothing but rape this and rape that.

jds1982
November 7th, 2009, 08:03 AM
It is also strange that there is no outrage over Law and Order SVU...the who show is nothing but rape this and rape that.

Why would there be outrage over a crime drama showing crimes?

tar21
November 7th, 2009, 08:08 AM
Telford didn't want to say anything because he's like this straight up hardass. He's probably embarrassed, so instead of filing an official complaint, i think he's just have a chat with one of his RAPISTS!

Seriously, that's messed up. Young violated the rules. He's didn't respect Telford's body.

Maxum
November 7th, 2009, 08:30 AM
My feelings on this subject is that if anyone agrees to be the "surrogate" for someone else to swap bodies with him, then you also take the risk of allowing that person to do what they want.

Would any of us agree to a body swap and if so, wouldn't we be risking certain behaviors by the other person? I would have to think that if someone hasn't seen their loved ones in weeks, months, years, then expressing themselves in some fashion (hugs, kissing, sex) would probably come up. It also seems that people are swapping with the same bodies. I believe Chloe took the same body again, just as Young did.

I think in future episodes, it might be mentioned that part of the agreement with being the recipient of a body swap is that you give up all rights to that body during the swap. If the person doesn't like that idea, then don't agree to the swap. It's that simple. For that reason, I don't consider either case as a case of rape. I believe that some rights were given up prior to agreeing to the swap. That's just my opinion because if someone came to me with a request to be a body swap recipient, I would have all kinds of questions: What are they going to do in my body? What can they do, etc? If the answer comes back that "You won't be held responsible for anything that happens during the body swap, but we can't guarantee that there won't be any kind of intimacy considering how long these people have not seen their loved ones" that would be my cue to say "No, thanks" or "Okay, I can accept that possiblity."

There has to be some kind of agreement to that sort of thinking, I would think.

dasNdanger
November 7th, 2009, 08:39 AM
Because I think those of us who were bothered with it have decided to move on with this episode. I was trying to like this show - and there are characters and some elements I DO like. But the sexual situations/relationships are turning it into Peyton Place, with love triangles and adultery and whatever, and that's not what I watch sci fi for. I'm not outraged...just really sad that the show didn't turn out the way I thought it would (with edgy adventure, intrigue, suspense, and stuff more along the lines of what <i>Sanctuary</i> offered immediately after this ep).

das

Maxum
November 7th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Why does sci fi shows only have to be about space battles or aliens? Intimacy, in whatever capacity, is part of being a human being and to not see it on a show makes it cold, imo. I agree that they don't need to show a sex scene with every single episode, but it doesn't bother me in the least. SGU is a character study of very different people trapped on a ship for God knows how long, and they are going to explore all aspects of these characters (love, hate, rage, betrayal, courage, etc.), and I'm enjoying it.

So far, the sexual scenes have not turned me off at all. Mostly because they make sense in the context of the show. At least I feel that way about Young. I think they are using Scott as a horn dog so far, but maybe they'll tone it down a bit with him.

Coronach
November 7th, 2009, 09:38 AM
Because I think those of us who were bothered with it have decided to move on with this episode. I was trying to like this show - and there are characters and some elements I DO like. But the sexual situations/relationships are turning it into Peyton Place, with love triangles and adultery and whatever, and that's not what I watch sci fi for. I'm not outraged...just really sad that the show didn't turn out the way I thought it would (with edgy adventure, intrigue, suspense, and stuff more along the lines of what <i>Sanctuary</i> offered immediately after this ep).

das

"Earth" offered the latter two in heaping amounts, so I guess that's a personal taste. :confused:

And while I can agree that adventure (in the truest sense of the word) has been a bit limited, I also acknowledge that SGU was set up to be primarily about survival in the beginning. Now that they seem to have air, energy, and water (for the most part) taken care of, I suspect we'll be getting some very intriguing stories.

For example, I found the overall conflict of "Earth" to be one of the most rewarding this far, and next week's "Time" looks astounding. I've been looking forward to "Time" for a while, and I've limited my spoiler level ever since I read a comment by Robert Carlyle about that episode ;)

Speaking with regards to the actual topic, I too find it interesting that proportionally less people cared about Young having sex in Telford's body. A lot of people thought they found it humorous and such.

Granted, I'm not going to voice what I thought either way, but I find it very interesting comparing people's initial reactions to this and the "Sabotage" sides. Episode discussion for "Sabotage" will be very interesting, indeed.

Joachim
November 7th, 2009, 09:51 AM
IMMORALLY WRONG.
So it was... right? You just pulled a double negative.

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2009, 09:56 AM
Why thank for a super-spoiler which had nothing to do with this episode any episode that has been aired insofar and which no one except those who have read the spoilers for future episodes knew about.

Thanks a bunch! Not even a spoiler-bracket!

Kaiphantom
November 7th, 2009, 09:58 AM
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of double standards between men and women when it comes to sex. For instance, a man sleeps around and its no big deal. Woman does it, and she's a slut.
Plus, the subject of a man's body being used for sex without permission isn't half as likely to cause outrage as a woman's body being used in the same context, so the axe-grinders don't see it as a worthy cause to work up the anti-SGU camp.

Quoting this for truth.

It's a big black mark against Young that he did this, in my book. Part of being in command, is having self-control. Well, for any guy, really, and this is coming from a guy. I hate guys who have no self-control. Of course, part of this is my bitter high school nerd days where I tried to show respect, and yet the ones who slept around had all the girls wanting them.

My other mark against Young was his paranoia, but it actually got some basis this ep, so the black mark as turned grey for now.

Coronach
November 7th, 2009, 10:04 AM
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of double standards between men and women when it comes to sex. For instance, a man sleeps around and its no big deal. Woman does it, and she's a slut.
Plus, the subject of a man's body being used for sex without permission isn't half as likely to cause outrage as a woman's body being used in the same context, so the axe-grinders don't see it as a worthy cause to work up the anti-SGU camp.

There are not words to describe how much I agree with what you say here :P Oh man, the stark parallels and (possibly) hypocrisy that can be drawn between this thread and the one this past summer. And I suspect it'll be even more stark (and entertaining) when "Sabotage" airs.

Col. Tomorian
November 7th, 2009, 10:14 AM
I think I am more pissed off now than before I started to watch the show. I find the continuous usage of sex distasteful. I had to shut several of the episodes off when family members walked by. If sex is used within anymore episodes, from this point on, I'm going to give up on everything Stargate.

Its bad enough Jack is a jerk in this series. I think there are now two strikes on the board. One more strike and I'm going to burn my Stargate SG-1 dvd sets.

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2009, 10:19 AM
I think I am more pissed off now than before I started to watch the show. I find the continuous usage of sex distasteful. I had to shut several of the episodes off when family members walked by. If sex is used within anymore episodes, from this point on, I'm going to give up on everything Stargate.
Maybe we should stop watching the show together seeing as how almost every single episode aired insofar has featured either actual sex (5 out of 7 episodes) or extensive talk about sex (1 out of 7). That's 6 out of 7. Good job, PTB.

TameFarrar
November 7th, 2009, 10:20 AM
Ok a Not so Friendly reminder folks - We have a SPOILER POLICY (http://forum.gateworld.net/faq.php?faq=faq_cat_basics#faq_rules) and we expect folks to adhere to it.

I have tagged all the spoilers in this thread and any further spoilers will result in the post being deleted.

Use Spoiler Tags, folks seem to have forgotten this very important rule.

TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator/Administrator

rlr149
November 7th, 2009, 10:26 AM
One more strike and I'm going to burn my Stargate SG-1 dvd sets.

now that's what i call "sticking it to the man"!

rofl

Coronach
November 7th, 2009, 10:27 AM
Maybe we should stop watching the show together seeing as how almost every single episode aired insofar has featured either actual sex (5 out of 7 episodes) or extensive talk about sex (1 out of 7). That's 6 out of 7. Good job, PTB.

I get the feeling that my definition of "feature" is vastly different from yours ;)

In any case, are you sure you have your numbers right? I do not remember 5 separate instances of actual sex. I only remember three, really :S

ttsec
November 7th, 2009, 10:29 AM
I think I am more pissed off now than before I started to watch the show. I find the continuous usage of sex distasteful. I had to shut several of the episodes off when family members walked by. If sex is used within anymore episodes, from this point on, I'm going to give up on everything Stargate.

Its bad enough Jack is a jerk in this series. I think there are now two strikes on the board. One more strike and I'm going to burn my Stargate SG-1 dvd sets.

Amen! Preach it brotha!

Col. Tomorian
November 7th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Maybe we should stop watching the show together seeing as how almost every single episode aired insofar has featured either actual sex (5 out of 7 episodes) or extensive talk about sex (1 out of 7). That's 6 out of 7. Good job, PTB.
I agree. I kind of thought that way earlier today. You have a point man.

Betelgeuze
November 7th, 2009, 10:38 AM
I think it is absolutely immoral to use someone elses body for sex. I can't believe that when they started using the stones they did not put guidelines in place. People being transferred to another body should be escorted at all times, preferably video taped to prevent them abusing other peoples bodies.

The fact that Young had sex while in someone elses body completely made me lose any respect i might have had for the character. It is impossible for me to like or respect him know. And i did not think my regard for Chloe could drop any lower, but they succeeded when they showed her getting another persons body drunk.

And Young's wife is equally to blame because what she did was just as bad as rape, even if Telford wasn't home at the moment. I think it can be compared to having sex with a coma patient, if someone did not or cannot consent to having sex it is rape. I am also dissapointed with Eli for not stopping Chloe.

When you are borrowing someone elses body you damn well treat it with respect. I thought that the writers would want people to be able to like or at least respect the characters. It's hard for me to imagine that anyone with morals would be o.k. with this.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 10:43 AM
Well all I can clearly say is that
http://www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/outrage.jpg

On a serious note, its good science fiction to ask moral and ethical questions. Was Young right to do what he did and what will the repercussions be?

Col. Tomorian
November 7th, 2009, 10:44 AM
I think it is absolutely immoral to use someone elses body for sex. I can't believe that when they started using the stones they did not put guidelines in place. People being transferred to another body should be escorted at all times, preferably video taped to prevent them abusing other peoples bodies.

The fact that Young had sex while in someone elses body completely made me lose any respect i might have had for the character. It is impossible for me to like or respect him know. And i did not think my regard for Chloe could drop any lower, but they succeeded when they showed her getting another persons body drunk.

And Young's wife is equally to blame because what she did was just as bad as rape, even if Telford wasn't home at the moment. I think it can be compared to having sex with a coma patient, if someone did not or cannot consent to having sex it is rape. I am also dissapointed with Eli for not stopping Chloe.

When you are borrowing someone elses body you damn well treat it with respect. I thought that the writers would want people to be able to like or at least respect the characters. It's hard for me to imagine that anyone with morals would be o.k. with this.
Preach it man. Preach it.

Star Trek was very-very cautious when approaching these types of issues. When something like this happened in a Trek episode, it was addressed within the context of the story. What we are seeing in Stargate is unethical, and it should not have been explored. Inexcusable.

If they wanted to go into this direction, they should have made a whole new franchise.

THIS IS STARGATE AND ITS NOT JAG OR CSI!

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 10:46 AM
Preach it man. Preach it.

Star Trek was very-very cautious when approaching these types of issues. When something like this happened in a Trek episode, it was addressed within the context of the story. What we are seeing in Stargate is unethical, and it should not have been explored. Inexcusable.

If they wanted to go into this direction, they should have made a whole new franchise.

THIS IS STARGATE AND ITS NOT JAG OR CSI!


Iím sorry there unethical for choosing to explore these issues? You may not want it but I do, if the show is so morally repugnant for you there is the off switch.

jelgate
November 7th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Preach it man. Preach it.

Star Trek was very-very cautious when approaching these types of issues. When something like this happened in a Trek episode, it was addressed within the context of the story. What we are seeing in Stargate is unethical, and it should not have been explored. Inexcusable.

If they wanted to go into this direction, they should have made a whole new franchise.

THIS IS STARGATE AND ITS NOT JAG OR CSI!

What in the world are you talking about? Stargate explored unethical issues all the time.

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Stuff.
You should spoiler-tag the thread title too and the thread itself is clearly of a spoilery nature.


I get the feeling that my definition of "feature" is vastly different from yours ;)

In any case, are you sure you have your numbers right? I do not remember 5 separate instances of actual sex. I only remember three, really :S
I believe I had a brainfart.

I completely muddled up "Featured nudity and blatant fanservice" with "sex scene" there. And I forgot about "Water" a moment seeing as how it was a largely boring and uneventful (except as a stand-alone episode, that is) for some reason and just invented a sex scene in my mind for that episode.

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 10:48 AM
On a serious note, its good science fiction to ask moral and ethical questions. Was Young right to do what he did and what will the repercussions be. ?

I'm actually more intrigued by Emily's actions. I think even if my wife was 'inside' so to speak, that it would be very unnerving to have sex with someone else's body like that.... you open your eyes and see someone else's face, the body feels and moves different....creepy. I was more surprised that Emily was willing to do that than I was that Young was

AnnieS
November 7th, 2009, 10:48 AM
In lastnights episode. It was not like they had a choice. Considering the the ship kept affecting the conection!!!

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2009, 10:49 AM
I'm actually more intrigued by Emily's actions. I think even if my wife was 'inside' so to speak, that it would be very unnerving to have sex with someone else's body like that.... you open your eyes and see someone else's face, the body feels and moves different....creepy. I was more surprised that Emily was willing to do that than I was that Young was
So was I. I went "Whoa there!" when the sex scene came on. It's still someone else's body and face. I mean, she was too freaked out to even talk to him originally. Maybe this was her way of almost-getting-revenge on him to call it even.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I'm actually more intrigued by Emily's actions. I think even if my wife was 'inside' so to speak, that it would be very unnerving to have sex with someone else's body like that.... you open your eyes and see someone else's face, the body feels and moves different....creepy. I was more surprised that Emily was willing to do that than I was that Young was

Its an all round ethical muddle, thatís what makes it so great. I donít see why Stargate cant explore this, in the past its explored themes of genocide, mass murder, religious warfare, false belief, unethical science and torture. But sex is off-limits?

Col. Tomorian
November 7th, 2009, 10:51 AM
Iím sorry there unethical for choosing to explore these issues? You may not want it but I do, if the show is so morally repugnant for you there is the off switch.
...and that is what I have planned.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 10:53 AM
...and that is what I have planned.


Frankly good because I want to enjoy a mature adult show, if you donít like it your making the right decision by simply watching or doing something else.

Betelgeuze
November 7th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Iím sorry there unethical for choosing to explore these issues? You may not want it but I do, if the show is so morally repugnant for you there is the off switch.

I'm o.k. with exploring ethical issues. But like i said i like my characters to have some morals. And i would never say they should not bring these things up. But i cannot like a character who would violate what i hold in the highest regard.

Col. Tomorian
November 7th, 2009, 10:55 AM
I'm o.k. with exploring ethical issues. But like i said i like my characters to have some morals. And i would never say they should not bring these things up. But i cannot like a character who would violate what i hold in the highest regard.
Especially when they are of someone in charge.

Rush suddenly looks like a saint. Next week Rush could kill everyone on board, and I would think he was justified in carrying out such an act.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 10:58 AM
I'm o.k. with exploring ethical issues. But like i said i like my characters to have some morals. And i would never say they should not bring these things up. But i cannot like a character who would violate what i hold in the highest regard.

And many shows ala the Sopranos and the Shield have characters who are morally repugnant. Thereís an audience for those shows as there is for SGU. Its clear to me even if the crew of the Destiny suffer in some areas with regards to morals they arenít totally lacking them, eg Greerís loyalty to Young, Young looking after his people, Wray not being a toll for the IOA. As I said if the show is that morally repugnant to you switch off and leave me to enjoy my complex scifi show. And I notice your sig has Dexter on it, not exactly a moral character there, a serial killer?

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 10:59 AM
OK, being a 40 yo man with a 20 year marriage (and six kids), sex is not a new topic for me so what I'm going to say may seem a bit much for some so...you've been warned
.
.
.
.


As a fan of b-level movies, and a lot of them, I've made observations of various tendencies in such movies and movies in general. One observation I've made is the tendency to use the 'woman on top' position for sex scenes because it allow you to show more of her body and less of the man's body underneath...and that's usually what the film-maker is going for, female skin.

"Earth" added a new twist that. Being that if Young and his wife had been in a more...traditional....position. The sudden body swap between Young and Telford would have been *really* awkward. That was one of the few positions they could've been in where they could really pull that scene off...

Just a random thought this morning...

ttsec
November 7th, 2009, 10:59 AM
Just admit it, you really just want a pr0n show in space. Sickening.

rlr149
November 7th, 2009, 10:59 AM
I'm o.k. with exploring ethical issues. But like i said i like my characters to have some morals. And i would never say they should not bring these things up. But i cannot like a character who would violate what i hold in the highest regard.

and yet you seem to like dexter, a serial killer!:confused: is serial killing not violating some highly regarded morals you have?

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 11:02 AM
and yet you seem to like dexter, a serial killer!:confused: is serial killing not violating some highly regarded morals you have?


Indeed and while Dexter is supposed to only kill murderers and other criminals, he on at least one occasion kills a (fairly) innocent person by accident, that doesnít have much of an affect on him. So hardly the most moral character there.

Betelgeuze
November 7th, 2009, 11:03 AM
And I notice your sig has Dexter on it, not exactly a moral character there, a serial killer?


Dexter is a sociopath, he isn't capable of morals. But anyone who has a command fuction in the military shoul have had some moral tests.

Maxum
November 7th, 2009, 11:05 AM
I'm o.k. with exploring ethical issues. But like i said i like my characters to have some morals. And i would never say they should not bring these things up. But i cannot like a character who would violate what i hold in the highest regard.

But you have no idea what was or was not violated. You have no idea what was or was not agreed to with regard to a body swap. None of these people are ordered to be the recipient. I'm not saying I want to see body swapping sex all over the place, but there's no evidence of breaking a rule that we've been shown.

I agree that there's an ethical/moral issue, but I can also put myself in the position of the the character of Young, who's been estranged from his wife for an undisclosed period of time. He finally gets forgiveness from his wife, and he has a normal reaction to her. Do I think he needs to go back and check in with Telford first? Probably, but emotions in that moment kicked in. Telford is not there, physically, nor would he have had any memory of it (excluding the glitch that happened and that's always a risk too). Again, I have to think some of this is discussed during a body swap. That would be interesting to see in future episodes. I think the greater moral issue would be to deceive someone on Earth because the idea of body swapping would be so WTF for them. Emily was not being deceived. However, at the end of the episode, it would appear that Telford was about to deceive Emily and that's a moral dilemma.

I think it's a valid discussion to have regarding what exactly is agreed to and is allowed during a body swap, including unexpected emotional situations. For instance, what if Eli had gotten into a fight at the club, and he picked up a knife to defend himself and got his "body" injured and also killed the attacker? Should he have avoided the fight completely because he was in someone else's body or did his emotions kick in, which could not possibly be controlled. What about Chloe getting drunk? What if the body recipient is a recovering alcoholic? It's an interesting dilemma.

The Mighty 6 platoon
November 7th, 2009, 11:07 AM
Dexter is a sociopath, he isn't capable of morals. But anyone who has a command fuction in the military shoul have had some moral tests.

Hang on a minute ago you said this.


I'm o.k. with exploring ethical issues. But like i said i like my characters to have some morals. And i would never say they should not bring these things up. But i cannot like a character who would violate what i hold in the highest regard.

You like your characters to have morals, except Dexter who has none. As for morlaity in the military, there are plenty of good people but I wouldnt call any of us morally clean or perfect in any way. Further military morals work in a much different way to civilians.

Betelgeuze
November 7th, 2009, 11:07 AM
But you have no idea what was or was not violated. You have no idea what was or was not agreed to with regard to a body swap. None of these people are ordered to be the recipient. I'm not saying I want to see body swapping sex all over the place, but there's no evidence of breaking a rule that we've been shown.

Would anyone really consent to someone else using their body in such a manner? They rin the risk of contracting STD's getting (someone) pregnant. And from the final scene I don't think Telford consented to his body being used in such a manner.

Mythophile
November 7th, 2009, 11:12 AM
You are right that it is rape, and it's not funny. I think most people felt this way with the whole sex thing when it first happened, but were so weirded out they didn't comment on it much. I can't imagine that sort of thing being permitted, and it's horribly irresponsible to run around in someone else's body like it's your own.

Actually, everyone seems to be realizing this in this episode. Young freaks out when Eli mentions it in the beginning. Eli certainly thought the girls were talking to him for being himself, but it turns out that his borrowed body is hot. Chloe thought her friend/boyfriend liked her for herself and now she's realizing that's not true either.

Betelgeuze
November 7th, 2009, 11:16 AM
You like your characters to have morals, except Dexter who has none. As for morlaity in the military, there are plenty of good people but I wouldnt call any of us morally clean or perfect in any way. Further military morals work in a much different way to civilians.

Let me tell you soemthing. I like Dexter, am not capable of experiencing guilt , remorse or empathy. But i do know which things are not morally acceptable. Like Dexter i have put certain things in the unacceptable box to prevent me from doing something that could get me in jail. I have my own code.

In some ways the character of Dexter who lives by his own code is superior to the normal people who supposedly have a inner moral compass. And i agree with you that military people obviously have different morals,{snip}

FallenAngelII
November 7th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Dexter is a sociopath, he isn't capable of morals. But anyone who has a command fuction in the military shoul have had some moral tests.
You have no idea how the military works, do you? They don't have "moral" tests. Especially not when it comes to such "special" things such as "Would you use someone else's body to have sex with your wife if you reconcile with them after a huge fight?".

Also, we see high ranking officials do immoral things all the time, even in real life. Can we say "Dick Cheney"?


Let me tell you soemthing. I like Dexter, am not capable of experiencing guilt , remorse or empathy. But i do know which things are not morally acceptable. Like Dexter i have put certain things in the unacceptable box to prevent me from doing something that could get me in jail. I have my own code.
That's how to judge whether or not to do something: Whether or not it'll land you in jail?

So non-jailable offenses are OK? Immoral, but not illegal offenses are OK?


You are right that it is rape, and it's not funny. I think most people felt this way with the whole sex thing when it first happened, but were so weirded out they didn't comment on it much. I can't imagine that sort of thing being permitted, and it's horribly irresponsible to run around in someone else's body like it's your own.
It's funny to some people, most notably the core target audience of SGU: young heterosexual males.

As a young homosexual male, it didn't make me laugh or anything. I was "weirded out" and thought it very strange that Mrs. Young (Emily?) would want to have sex with Young in another man's body. I didn't immediately think of rape, however, but I didn't find it funny.

But this show is written by heterosexual white men (AFAIK, all of the writers are heterosexual white men), all of whom were once young, some of whom are still young or were young only a few years ago and as such, a lot of things will be highly irking for non-heterosexual white men.

Cory Holmes
November 7th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Maybe this was her way of almost-getting-revenge on him to call it even.

Now there is an interesting idea. Some people have suspected Young of a... personal... indiscretion at one point, so maybe this is Emily getting one back on her side? And now that Telford is approaching her on his own, this will be an interesting turn of events :)


Oh, and to those who think this episode had a frat-boy mentality, it was touched upon by Martin Gero. That explains the frat-boyness.

Maxum
November 7th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Would anyone really consent to someone else using their body in such a manner? They rin the risk of contracting STD's getting (someone) pregnant.

Maybe. If these people are coming to Earth to visit their loved ones whom they have not seen a quite a time, who is to say what would or would not happen. I'm not saying that I think it's a great thing to do, but on an emotional level, I can see how it might happen without being planned. As for STDs and pregnancy, I think using protection is a no brainer.


And from the final scene I don't think Telford consented to his body being used in such a manner.

I think quite the contrary. I don't think he had a problem with it at all, and judging from his reaction, he may very well be seeking revenge against Young. If Telford had a problem, there would have been a major confrontation between Young and Telford when Young returned for his final briefing. Instead, Telford goes to Young's wife? I don't think so.

Captain Obvious
November 7th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of double standards between men and women when it comes to sex. For instance, a man sleeps around and its no big deal. Woman does it, and she's a slut.
Plus, the subject of a man's body being used for sex without permission isn't half as likely to cause outrage as a woman's body being used in the same context, so the axe-grinders don't see it as a worthy cause to work up the anti-SGU camp.

Just wait. When the Wray scene comes up I will be calling out every single axe grinding hypocrite who will be flipping out about that situation but made no mention of this scene.

aretood2
November 7th, 2009, 01:13 PM
Just wait. When the Wray scene comes up I will be calling out every single axe grinding hypocrite who will be flipping out about that situation but made no mention of this scene.

for the record I have made my distaste for sex scenes in general known.

Cory Holmes
November 7th, 2009, 01:19 PM
for the record I have made my distaste for sex scenes in general known.
I would agree with you, but for two issues: first off, the sex scenes (very) graphically remind us that this is NOT SG-1 or Atlantis, it's its own animal with its own tone and style; and second of all, I'm waiting for a scene starring TJ in it. I think that's the closest I'll ever get to a sex scene with Amanda Tapping :p

*flees very, very fast*

kymeric
November 7th, 2009, 01:28 PM
Just admit it, you really just want a pr0n show in space. Sickening.

Dunno wut ur talking about, i think pron is awesome!

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Dunno wut ur talking about, i think pron is awesome!

Rule #34...it's out there somewhere..

TameFarrar
November 7th, 2009, 01:52 PM
Alrighty Then

The TOPIC of this thread is *Where is the outrage* over the use of another's body with the communication stones for personal/intimate moments.

IF you want to discuss SGA....please locate the appropriate thread and discuss your opinions about SGA there.

IF you feel the need to DISPUTE PERSONALLY something said by another member and TAKE IT PERSONALLY ...then I suggest (read that "you WILL") take it to PM, so the folks who would like to discuss the topic in a calm, respectful and decent manner may do so in peace.

Thank You
TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator/Administrator

dasNdanger
November 7th, 2009, 02:35 PM
Because I think those of us who were bothered with it have decided to move on with this episode. I was trying to like this show - and there are characters and some elements I DO like. But the sexual situations/relationships are turning it into Peyton Place, with love triangles and adultery and whatever, and that's not what I watch sci fi for. I'm not outraged...just really sad that the show didn't turn out the way I thought it would (with edgy adventure, intrigue, suspense, and stuff more along the lines of what <i>Sanctuary</i> offered immediately after this ep).

das


"Earth" offered the latter two in heaping amounts, so I guess that's a personal taste. :confused:

It's the context. When I say I want edgy, etc...I mean in the context of adventure, not in sexual relationships.

See...in real life I'm not one of those people who wants to be all up in the personal business of my friends, neighbors, etc. It just doesn't interest me. So when fictional storylines start to play out like some sort of high school drama, or Desperate Housewives...well...I just lose interest.

When I said what I did about edginess, I meant like what happened in Sanctuary, right after, when Helen (Amanda Tapping) was stripped naked and powerwashed by a bunch of masked gunmen. It was frightening, it was horrific, and it made me fearing for her very life! And it was far more intense than any of the sexual situations shown thus far on Universe.

Also, when I said I what I did about edginess, adventure and intrigue - I was thinking of conflict in isolation in such movies like Lifeboat, and 12 Angry Men, or the human desperation and determination in the battle scenes in Master and Commander, or the camaraderie and sacrifice of a group of soldiers in something like Band of Brothers, or the intrigue of a good ol' twisty turny spy story.

I was NOT thinking along the lines of Melrose Place.


Speaking with regards to the actual topic, I too find it interesting that proportionally less people cared about Young having sex in Telford's body.

Speaking for myself only, I've ceased to care. Why be outraged when you know this is exactly what the creators want to do, regardless of how many might find it offensive. Why? Because they know it will draw in the narrow audience they wanted in the first place.

So why should I care what was done to Telford's body, if I am ceasing to care about the show as a whole? I am not happy about this - I DO like some of the characters, but the direction the show has taken is disappointing, and moving further away from the sci fi adventures I love - NOT in previous Stargate shows, but in sci fi in general.

Had they kept the sex, but downplayed it just a bit, and not put personal drama (i.e. love affairs) as a major storyline, then I think it would have attracted both new fans and old alike. But as the show builds, it seems less about sci fi and more about who loves whom, who's cheating on whom, and who's jealous of whom. That's not the type of show I personally want to watch - reminds me too much of reality tv (gag!) drama, or soap operas. As I said, I wanted that edginess and suspense in the context of adventure, not in sexual relationships.

das

Coronach
November 7th, 2009, 02:41 PM
It's the context. When I say I want edgy, etc...I mean in the context of adventure, not in sexual relationships.

Well actually, I meant "intrigue and suspense" in terms of the plotlines that were not directly related to character relationships, but to each their own :S

Infinite-Possibilities
November 7th, 2009, 02:42 PM
Dunno wut ur talking about, i think pron is awesome!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Penaeus_vannamei_01.jpg/290px-Penaeus_vannamei_01.jpg

Me too.








What?

jelgate
November 7th, 2009, 02:48 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Penaeus_vannamei_01.jpg/290px-Penaeus_vannamei_01.jpg

Me too.








What?
I see what you did there:cool:

gottaluvit
November 7th, 2009, 03:03 PM
When it happened, I had a "wtf?!" moment. I later reasoned that Young certainly didn't visit his wife with the intention of doing her. Just, you know, one thing leads to another...

I wasn't part of the other discussion, so i can't comment on it but as far as this being "rape" goes, you can't very well say that Telford was upset about it. He went back for more afterwards, didn't he? :D

Which makes me wonder just what sort of woman Young's wife is. She's starring straight into the face of another man as she has sex (so what if it was Young inside that body, still a different face)..and she doesn't seem to even blink. You'd think she'd be a bit hesitant to 'do' some strange guys body.

Captain Obvious
November 7th, 2009, 03:11 PM
Which makes me wonder just what sort of woman Young's wife is. She's starring straight into the face of another man as she has sex (so what if it was Young inside that body, still a different face)..and she doesn't seem to even blink. You'd think she'd be a bit hesitant to 'do' some strange guys body.

She was more at ease than the first time they had a conversation. They were also drinking. Alcohol = decreased inhibition.

retiredat44
November 7th, 2009, 09:42 PM
for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged..............

I think this whole premise of letting these people use the stones, take other people's bodies and do outrageous things... and think that the body owners either didn't care or agreed, is all BS!

The stones could be used for engineering, medical, and trading with other people who can help them get home, or at least help them in other ways..

I am sick of saying the sex is overly done, and outrageous, it's not good for the show..

It is time for the writers to dump their experimenting with the viewers..
we we used to quality, now we are being used to watch a cross between Tarantino and BSG. Please go back to the style that brought us SG1 and SGA.
:(

How about more science.. maybe zero in on Rush training Eli,, an get more details of science in the stories..

;)

Infinite-Possibilities
November 7th, 2009, 09:53 PM
Well also to be fair, we didn't see the beginning of it, we just cut straight to the sex. maybe there was some hesitation. Because the moments where the hesitation probably would have happened weren't shown onscreen.

gottaluvit
November 7th, 2009, 09:57 PM
She was more at ease than the first time they had a conversation. They were also drinking. Alcohol = decreased inhibition.

Hmm, well I drink from time to time, even been a bit sloshed before, but I can't say I'd mistake another mans face for my husbands no matter who much he may sound like him. She would absolutely know they were using another persons body, which means regardless of what emotional baggage their actions might leave for that other person she chose to have her fun. I can see how Young might forget he's not looking at a stranger after all and still feels like himself.

Nemises
November 7th, 2009, 10:27 PM
Telford is in a military. They are trained for all sorter situations. Right?

I highly doubt he got training for that. But i doubt he would be to pissed about it. Now if young was having sex with a man then he would've hit the roof ;)

Radahldo
November 7th, 2009, 10:37 PM
I highly doubt he got training for that. But i doubt he would be to pissed about it. Now if young was having sex with a man then he would've hit the roof ;)


Would that really have bothered him?

haloplayer
November 7th, 2009, 11:20 PM
This is a sad day for the crew of the Destiny. There leader is in fact a Rapist.

WHAT WAS HE THINKING?

The sad thing is that Young sees no problem in raping Telford's body. There is nothing wrong in this action in his conscience which makes me sick.

I feel sorry for the next person who will give there body to Young temporary again (weather it be Telford or not).

If he had no problem with getting laid with his ex-wife with Telford's body then he would have no problem doing it again.

He is the FRAKING COMMANDER of the ship, he should be the person who thinks before he acts. He could have given an STD to Telford's body.

This is worse then scott.

Im sure they would have not done this if Young was a girl.....double standers, gota hate them.

I hope Telford brings up this topic with him.

Replicator Todd
November 7th, 2009, 11:21 PM
Rapist......okaaaaay.

Willow'sCat
November 7th, 2009, 11:25 PM
This is a sad day for the crew of the Destiny. There leader is in fact a Rapist.

WHAT WAS HE THINKING?

The sad thing is that Young sees no problem in raping Telford's body. There is nothing wrong in this action in his conscience which makes me sick.

I feel sorry for the next person who will give there body to Young temporary again (weather it be Telford or not).

If he had no problem with getting laid with his ex-wife with Telford's body then he would have no problem doing it again.

He is the FRAKING COMMANDER of the ship, he should be the person who thinks before he acts. He could have given an STD to Telford's body.

This is worse then scott.

Im sure they would have not done this if Young was a girl.....double standers, gota hate them.

I hope Telford brings up this topic with him.This! I am sure TPTB will say it is fine as it is just a TV show, but this just sends a message - the wrong message. :cool:

Captain Obvious
November 7th, 2009, 11:26 PM
Would that really have bothered him?

Well, we have a Don't ask Don't tell policy in the US military....Telford might not be exactly into the ladies...

ckwongau
November 7th, 2009, 11:27 PM
sex without consent is a sex crime.
Both Col Young and Emily are guilty of .
But if Telford didn't report Young's violation to General.
That imply Telford's silent consent ,maybe not this time ,but the next time if Young ever switch body with Telford and nobody(Jack or the air-force officer) said anything, then Young has Telford's consent.

If Telford pretend to be Young to have sex with Emily then,
It is a classic case of abuse victim turn abuser .

Demerzel
November 7th, 2009, 11:35 PM
Now I'm wondering why the hell my post got deleted.

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 11:35 PM
Now I'm wondering why the hell my post got deleted.

Probably ended up in another thread...

Radahldo
November 7th, 2009, 11:36 PM
Now I'm wondering why the hell my post got deleted.

Deleted or subsumed into this one?

Demerzel
November 7th, 2009, 11:38 PM
Deleted or subsumed into this one?

Simply deleted. I'm guessing a moderator didn't like me calling Scott the "male version of Starbuck". Kinda sad, as I thought I had made a good point aside from that.

Nemises
November 8th, 2009, 12:07 AM
Now I'm wondering why the hell my post got deleted.

My anti-chloe post also got deleted.

gottaluvit
November 8th, 2009, 12:13 AM
sex without consent is a sex crime.
Both Col Young and Emily are guilty of .
But if Telford didn't report Young's violation to General.
That imply Telford's silent consent ,maybe not this time ,but the next time if Young ever switch body with Telford and nobody(Jack or the air-force officer) said anything, then Young has Telford's consent.

If Telford pretend to be Young to have sex with Emily then,
It is a classic case of abuse victim turn abuser .

I agree that using someones body for sex without their consent = rape. I don't believe consent can be given after the fact whether or not one believes it's implied by Telford's action afterwards.

If the situation isn't addressed what happens if, over the course of time, Young swaps bodies with a number of different personnel in his communication attempts? Would it be okay for him to use any or all of those bodies for conjugal visits each time?

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Simply deleted. I'm guessing a moderator didn't like me calling Scott the "male version of Starbuck". Kinda sad, as I thought I had made a good point aside from that.
Last year (or less than a year ago, I don't remember when), a new rule was instated on GW:
You cannot call characters names or refer to them in a "derogatory way".

Eternal Density
November 8th, 2009, 02:49 AM
The revealling question is who were the people who were outraged previously. Also they were outraged about what they speculated would happen and how they feared it would be handled.
Telford's actions at the end of the ep show that this situation is not being played as a joke but as a serious matter, I think.

gottaluvit
November 8th, 2009, 03:28 AM
The revealling question is who were the people who were outraged previously. Also they were outraged about what they speculated would happen and how they feared it would be handled.
Telford's actions at the end of the ep show that this situation is not being played as a joke but as a serious matter, I think.


Hopefully it will be treated seriously. That's what I'm hopeing for. We have no idea what Telford intends, there's a lot of speculation that he intends less than honorable actions, but who knows? Maybe he just fronted up to demand answers from her. Granted that may be unlikely but we'll see.

rosey_angel
November 8th, 2009, 04:44 AM
where is the outrage? well, here for one. i think it was horrible, disgusting and just plain wrong. and my young hetrosexual male bf didn't like it either.

having said that, i know this is a tv show, aka fictional. and it does open up more doors to the characters, is young upset, or was he turned on by it? what if he's gay? and like others have said, what if you swap into a body that has a disease like diabetes, and you eat the wrong thing? or get into a fight?

these stones open up so many interesting fictional possibilites that i'm looking forward to watching

Encoder
November 8th, 2009, 05:22 AM
I think you've got to accept that people that come back using the stones are gonna want to have some relations with their loved ones.

What about the chick Chloe was in, surely she jumped back and though, wholy crap, why do I feel this bad?!?!

:sheppard:

JohnDuh
November 8th, 2009, 08:19 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape

No, that's just you lying.

But I am outraged that they dare call this soap opera science fiction, what few seconds of scifi there is are just excuse for more teenage angst.

missmobius
November 8th, 2009, 08:33 AM
I think I am more pissed off now than before I started to watch the show. I find the continuous usage of sex distasteful. I had to shut several of the episodes off when family members walked by. If sex is used within anymore episodes, from this point on, I'm going to give up on everything Stargate.

Its bad enough Jack is a jerk in this series. I think there are now two strikes on the board. One more strike and I'm going to burn my Stargate SG-1 dvd sets.

don't do that, SG1 isn't at fault for the drastic change in SGU.

Heck the first 5 seasons, didn't even have the writers that are on SGU now.

missmobius
November 8th, 2009, 08:36 AM
In lastnights episode. It was not like they had a choice. Considering the the ship kept affecting the conection!!!

Just had a thought, ,what if those glitches with the stones were really caused by Rush?

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2009, 08:38 AM
No, that's just you lying.

But I am outraged that they dare call this soap opera science fiction, what few seconds of scifi there is are just excuse for more teenage angst.
Yeah, this episode made me fed up with Chloe's character. What the hell was all that?!

Oh, I'll go out to a party at a club now. My ex-boyfriend is sleeping with my best friend! Angst! Drunk now! I wanna fight! Oh, I'm crying!

What the... what is this, the O.C.?!

missmobius
November 8th, 2009, 08:42 AM
Which makes me wonder just what sort of woman Young's wife is. She's starring straight into the face of another man as she has sex (so what if it was Young inside that body, still a different face)..and she doesn't seem to even blink. You'd think she'd be a bit hesitant to 'do' some strange guys body.

Maybe that's cause she's been having an affair with Telford all along?

talyn2k1
November 8th, 2009, 08:56 AM
For me, the biggest problem with this body-swapping isn't so much the morality of sex in another person's body, this has been debated time and time again for months and I am pretty much decided on which camp I sit in.

My issue is more about general lack of responsibility.

For all Young knew, Telford had an STD or HIV.
For all Eli knew, the guy whose body he was inhabiting was allergic to something in the cookies.

I just hope that in a future episode, they show some of these possible undesirable side effects of body-swapping.

Although, I would hope that the Air Force would ensure that no one with allergies or medical conditions is used as a vessel for the body-swapping and, if this can't be avoided, inform the individual who will be inhabiting that body so they can prevent it from being a problem.

Less
November 8th, 2009, 09:04 AM
Yeah, this episode made me fed up with Chloe's character. What the hell was all that?!

Oh, I'll go out to a party at a club now. My ex-boyfriend is sleeping with my best friend! Angst! Drunk now! I wanna fight! Oh, I'm crying!

What the... what is this, the O.C.?!

I've never seen the OC, but I remember 90210, complete with the band at the Peach Pit. It was like, totally awesome!

I didn't notice in the after-credits, but did they advertise for the CD?

Less
November 8th, 2009, 09:11 AM
My issue is more about general lack of responsibility.

...

I just hope that in a future episode, they show some of these possible undesirable side effects of body-swapping.

The whole issue of responsible body-swapping could have been solved by ONE little bit of solid writing.

Near the end of the episode, cut between Young talking to his folks and Telford talking to his - "Since the stone connection can be interrupted at any time - in and out of FTL, other reasons possibly, we need to be much more careful about their use. No driving, really no risky behavior. It's important to have even MORE respect for the body you inhabit than you would have your own."

Just think how different our opinion of this show would be if we were to see these people acting respectfully and maturely.

Coronach
November 8th, 2009, 09:12 AM
sex without consent is a sex crime.
Both Col Young and Emily are guilty of .
But if Telford didn't report Young's violation to General.
That imply Telford's silent consent ,maybe not this time ,but the next time if Young ever switch body with Telford and nobody(Jack or the air-force officer) said anything, then Young has Telford's consent.

Really? So if a a 20-year old woman is raped by a man, and she never tells anyone about it (because she's ashamed, for example), then she has implicitly given consent for it to happen more in the future?

Consent cannot be silent or implicit, nor can it be assumed simply based on past events. People go to jail for these kinds of assumptions all the time.

siles
November 8th, 2009, 10:06 AM
When it happened, I had a "wtf?!" moment. I later reasoned that Young certainly didn't visit his wife with the intention of doing her. Just, you know, one thing leads to another...

I wasn't part of the other discussion, so i can't comment on it but as far as this being "rape" goes, you can't very well say that Telford was upset about it. He went back for more afterwards, didn't he? :D

Or he went to complain? :P

siles
November 8th, 2009, 10:08 AM
Huh?
A body is not just a vessel, some would say it is a temple. It is still part of who you are. There is a reason why people are so protective of dead bodies. What if Telford was a virgin? His virginity would now be gone, lets say he secretly has an STD...what if that was his reason for showing up at the door if it was not Young.

What if Tleford has religious or moral objections? This is no different than date rape. Just cause your mind isn't their for you to expierence it or say no, it is still rape.

Yes the out cry over a gay lady was sexist or just done by people who are upset over SGA.

What if he's gay? :P

siles
November 8th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I think I am more pissed off now than before I started to watch the show. I find the continuous usage of sex distasteful. I had to shut several of the episodes off when family members walked by. If sex is used within anymore episodes, from this point on, I'm going to give up on everything Stargate.

Its bad enough Jack is a jerk in this series. I think there are now two strikes on the board. One more strike and I'm going to burn my Stargate SG-1 dvd sets.
Don't be stupid! Sell them :P

wargrafix
November 8th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Technically, Its impossible for a guy to lose virginity.

But anyways, holding a body hostage, which is what telford was doing, is wrong in any case.

wargrafix
November 8th, 2009, 10:21 AM
Don't be stupid! Sell them :P

Sg1 series can't be blamed if his family is close minded. What does he want, Mary poppins in Space?

siles
November 8th, 2009, 10:22 AM
Technically, Its impossible for a guy to lose virginity.

But anyways, holding a body hostage, which is what telford was doing, is wrong in any case.

Why? virgin=a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

amconway
November 8th, 2009, 11:36 AM
I got the impression that Telford's probably had sex with Young's wife before. He was shocked because he suddenly found himself there while Young was. He may also have thought that marriage was over.

Coronach
November 8th, 2009, 11:40 AM
I got the impression that Telford's probably had sex with Young's wife before. He was shocked because he suddenly found himself there while Young was. He may also have thought that marriage was over.

This is one very possible scenario. As I've said before, I'm interested to see where that last scene from "Earth" goes in the next few episodes. I want to know why Telford was there :P

amconway
November 8th, 2009, 12:00 PM
This is one very possible scenario. As I've said before, I'm interested to see where that last scene from "Earth" goes in the next few episodes. I want to know why Telford was there

I have to give them credit for creating intricate, murky, character drama and doing it very well. Taken for what it is, the show is very well done in all respects. Sadly, I don't like intricate, murky character drama about ethically challanged people. I liked the 3 and a half minutes that was about science and the ship.

I have to really like characters to want to slog through anything even close to this, and here, I just don't. On the other hand, Scott's relatively honest propensity for indiscriminate sex on duty is looking a heck of a lot better in comparison. ;)

Visrat
November 8th, 2009, 12:25 PM
After the disruption when we see Telford back on Destiny (the camera shows him in his body even though he is currently in Young's) and he touches his hand and appears to be touching a wedding ring.

I got the impression that Telford is currently married. As a married man I can understand why Telford would be really upset at what was happening. What Young did was wrong, even if Telford is not married what he did was wrong.

I feel that at the end of the episode Telford went to talk to Young's wife about what happened to make sure it never happens again. I also think Young's wife is going to be really upset with Young when she finds out Telford is married. Young cheated on her in the past and I think this is going to make her feel like she had an affair with a married man. Have to see how the writers take it, but I think it will go this way.

Col. Tomorian
November 8th, 2009, 12:36 PM
... Sell them :P
Not a chance. I already have "SG-1: Season One" dangling over a fire. If I were to give them away to someone else, that would be counter productive in what I'm trying to do. Oh, yeah! I'm getting ready for my SG-1 BBQ!

If the writers don't stay true to the Stargate franchise, (within the next episode of Universe), its bye-bye to my SG-1 DVD sets. Atlantis will follow its fate. I already have four other family members ready to burn theirs, and I'm talking to several others to join in on the BBQ. So far everyone is on board.

I give them one more week to get us back on track. Doomsday for my "Stargate: SG-1" and "Stargate: Atlantis" dvd sets are near.

We are going to have a full boycott on all "Stargate" products.

amconway
November 8th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Not a chance. I already have SG-1 season one dangling over a fire. If I were to give them away to someone else, that would be counter productive in what I'm trying to do. Oh, yeah! I'm getting ready for my SG-1 BBQ!

If the writers don't stay true to the Stargate franchise, (within the next episode of Universe), its bye-bye to my SG-1 DVD sets. Atlantis will follow its fate. I already have four other family members ready to burn theirs, and I'm talking to several others to join in on the BBQ. So far everyone is on board.

I give them one more week to get us back on track. Time is ticking.

Logic isn't your strong suit, is it? ;)

Col. Tomorian
November 8th, 2009, 12:50 PM
Logic isn't your strong suit, is it? ;)
Not only am I going to burn my sets, but I will also deny them my money when it comes to the next "Stargate: SG-1" movie.

Rac80
November 8th, 2009, 12:57 PM
Really? So if a a 20-year old woman is raped by a man, and she never tells anyone about it (because she's ashamed, for example), then she has implicitly given consent for it to happen more in the future?

Consent cannot be silent or implicit, nor can it be assumed simply based on past events. People
go to jail for these kinds of assumptions all the time.
yep you are right there. if a woman (or man for that matter) is given a date rape drug and can't remember being raped...IT IS STILL RAPE!!! :rolleyes: where do some people get their ideas? :S


This is one very possible scenario. As I've said before, I'm interested to see where that last scene from "Earth" goes in the next few episodes. I want to know why Telford was there :P

it's a soap... adultry, rape, etc...all the signs!;)


I have to give them credit for creating intricate, murky, character drama and doing it very well. Taken for what it is, the show is very well done in all respects. Sadly, I don't like intricate, murky character drama about ethically challanged people. I liked the 3 and a half minutes that was about science and the ship.

I have to really like characters to want to slog through anything even close to this, and here, I just don't. On the other hand, Scott's relatively honest propensity for indiscriminate sex on duty is looking a heck of a lot better in comparison. ;)

I used to watch soaps years ago, and beleive me...this one is not well done at all! :P

gottaluvit
November 8th, 2009, 12:59 PM
I think you've got to accept that people that come back using the stones are gonna want to have some relations with their loved ones.



:sheppard:

And if they swap with a different person each time then their loved ones will get lots of variety.

Coronach
November 8th, 2009, 01:01 PM
yep you are right there. if a woman (or man for that matter) is given a date rape drug and can't remember being raped...IT IS STILL RAPE!!! :rolleyes: where do some people get their ideas? :S

Yeah. It's interesting the strange ethical scenarios that science fiction can offer. It sometimes reminds me of the mind-boggling ethical scenarios you come across in philosophy courses.


it's a soap... adultry, rape, etc...all the signs!;)


Nah, but at least we agree that the "V" reboot is a really cool show! :D

amconway
November 8th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Not only am I going to burn my sets, but I will also deny them my money when it comes to the next "Stargate: SG-1" movie.

I'm thinking you might protest a war by shooting yourself so they couldn't draft you. Effective in a very small way, but not the best possible choice.


I used to watch soaps years ago, and beleive me...this one is not well done at all!

I would have to disagree with you, but given how many things we disagree on, that's not a huge surprise. ;)

Azzers
November 8th, 2009, 01:34 PM
Since I also frequent Dollhouse forums, this topic has already been done to death for me. But I will say (and parroting Mallozzi a little on this one) that specifically in this case it is hard for me to get upset when the writers themselves are referring to these visits as conjugal, and if the writers know it then there is a good chance the character's know it.

It's certainly "ick", but then Telford ruthlessly carrying on with Col. Young's body when Young's body was unfit for duty was both reckless and violent. And it was most certainly a violation as well. I guess my point is, given the nature of what the communication stones do, consenting to use them is consent. Young, Wallace, and Armstrong had their bodies essentially stolen by the military to complete and objective. If Telford didn't like that his other half was getting laid, cry some more. He was practicing reckless science and then tried to escape when he thought *he* might die. Vala and Jackson basically got their hosts killed and that I actually have a much bigger problem with because I doubt the people on the other side knew what was going on. I guess I'm saying, the wrongness of conjugal visits seems rather low on the scale considering what others were doing to their bodies.

Still an ick topic though.

Col. Tomorian
November 8th, 2009, 02:03 PM
I'm thinking you might protest a war by shooting yourself so they couldn't draft you. Effective in a very small way, but not the best possible choice.
You convinced me of something. Instead of tuning in next week, I will burn my "Stargate: SG-1" dvd sets during the show's airing. Forget about watching "Stargate: Universe". Its time to start the burning.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Wow! Kind of reminds me about the time when I burned my Star Wars dvd sets. Lol... Watching all six go up in flames gave me pleasure. Lucas will never-ever get another dime from me.

Stargate franchise will be next to burn in our house. Since the writers want to cheapen Stargate with this sex junk, I might as well treat the dvd sets like the garbage they are now being expanded upon.

jelgate
November 8th, 2009, 02:13 PM
You convinced me of something. Instead of tuning in next week, I will burn my "Stargate: SG-1" dvd sets during the show's airing. Forget about watching "Stargate: Universe". Its time to start the burning.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Wow! Kind of reminds me about the time when I burned my Star Wars dvd sets. Lol... Watching all six go up in flames gave me pleasure. Lucas will never-ever get another dime from me.

Stargate franchise will be next to burn in our house. Since the writers want to cheapen Stargate with this sex junk, I might as well treat the dvd sets like the garbage they are now being expanded upon.

So since you are displeased with the current direction of Stargate you are going to rid yourself of all the times it brought you joy. That makes no sense. I hated ENT but I still have DS9 DVDs.

jjay
November 8th, 2009, 02:31 PM
My feelings on this subject is that if anyone agrees to be the "surrogate" for someone else to swap bodies with him, then you also take the risk of allowing that person to do what they want.


Right, Chloe's use of the other woman's body was worse by objective standards. She did something that she knew caused long-term damage to the body itself -- drank alcohol, quite freely.

How do you know how a straight guy would react if he were in my brain. I am gay, would he end up doing some guy at the gym because his mind was totally unready for my trained hormonal reactions to what he expected to be a totally unexciting ritual?

Training into habit is a physiological brain alteration. Pavlov's dog, with the same brain but a different mind (Yes, I am sure dogs have minds) would still salivate to the bell, no?

So, could I really blame him? I am an expert at being me, and he isn't, wouldn't we expect some rookie mistakes.

jjay
November 8th, 2009, 02:45 PM
I don't think Telford is after sex, I think he is after intimate information about Young that he can use to manipulate him. But if he were...

Say she turns down Telford, because he is a shallow, coldly strategic twit. (Would she know him?) It would be a great plot device if she then got pregnant from Telford's body and Young's mind. What if she then felt obligated to raise it with Telford. Young would feel cuckolded by his own stupid decision to ignore Telford's sovereignty over his body.

Mythophile
November 8th, 2009, 02:52 PM
What's even more bizarre is how Young's wife is okay with it. I mean, Young can't see himself, so maybe he would sort of forget he isn't in his own body, but his wife has to see Telford's body all the time. And she was okay with this? That's very un-woman like, IMO.

haloplayer
November 8th, 2009, 03:06 PM
Wow SGU now has something over BSG.

They actually showed Rape in SGU (not graphically of course), in BSG it was mentioned it happened to Gina but it was never shown, it almost happened to 2 characters (Cally and Athena) but it was prevented.

Now all they need is for a few characters to get killed via airlock in SGU :D

Infinite-Possibilities
November 8th, 2009, 03:11 PM
So since you are displeased with the current direction of Stargate you are going to rid yourself of all the times it brought you joy. That makes no sense. I hated ENT but I still have DS9 DVDs.

I know. That does confuse me too.

And not only that, but if you burn DVDs that you bought. You still paid for those DVDs. It's not like the money you spent on them automatically goes up in flames at the same time.

Eternal Density
November 8th, 2009, 03:24 PM
Technically, Its impossible for a guy to lose virginity. I thought that was just geeks.

Alder
November 8th, 2009, 04:01 PM
Well...I'm more vaguely disgusted than outraged.

I quite liked Young in the first couple of episodes, liked him a bit less in Water, and now have a pretty low opinion of the man.

As for Chloe...is she ever going to develop some kind of positive characteristics? Getting absolutely guttered in some stranger's body. Bleah.

prion
November 8th, 2009, 05:13 PM
I'm sure a lot of folks are disgusted/dismayed/revolted/outraged/whatever, over people swapping bodies and then having sex. Yes, you'd think there would be strict rules on waht you can and cannot do while in another person's body.

Having sex, I'd think, would be a top NO-NO. Why? Because you risk ruining that person's life, for one thing, if you say, have sex with a stranger. Then there are STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and lord knows what else.

I can only assume that the bulk of the folk doing this haven't gone to any kind of church in a long time... or just don't care.

It's rather uncomfortable, for lack of a better word, that none of the characters seem bothered by people taking their bodies out for a) sex, b) getting drunk, and I'm sure there will be more...

As for Telford, the theories are that at the end of the episode he's going to a) impersonate Young and try for some sex, b) talk to Ms. Young, but c) it's all sort soap operaish no matter how you look at it. And considering what Young did to Telford in the meeting, I'm sure Telford is NOT feeling charitable at all toward Young.

Starrtom
November 8th, 2009, 05:32 PM
I am sure TPTB thought about these issues when they were preparing the scripts. I can also imagine high level discussions about them, I don't believe they would be ignorent of the possible controversy it would create. I think there is a reason for all this, and the consequences of the episode will be later seen in the future (at least I hope so). Am I outraged? Not really, because I feel that SGU's direction is there to challange us a bit more then the previous series.

Not even half a season has gone by yet and there has been as many controversies as 2 or 3 seasons of SG1. This tells me that this show is really really interesting IMO.

Mitchell82
November 8th, 2009, 05:33 PM
and what if Telford has been having an affair with Young's wife for some time???? Now that sounds more like a soap opera storyline, after all this is a soap opera we're talking about isn't it?

SGU is not a soap opera IMO as to the moral issue regarding the sex well yeah it does raise some eybrows however this could be his last chance to have sex with his wife so not a big deal to me imo.

Lightning Ducj
November 8th, 2009, 05:34 PM
for lack of a better word, that none of the characters seem bothered by people taking their bodies out for a) sex, b) getting drunk, and I'm sure there will be more...

Yet. Within the timing of the episode there was not opportunity to expound upon everyone's reactions. Since the scientists did not appear after they left, their reaction to Chloe and Eli's use of their bodies' has been so far unexplored. I have a hunch that Telford shoeing up at Mrs. Young's door could be part of the exploration of the consequences of Young's actions.

amconway
November 8th, 2009, 07:45 PM
You convinced me of something. Instead of tuning in next week, I will burn my "Stargate: SG-1" dvd sets during the show's airing. Forget about watching "Stargate: Universe". Its time to start the burning.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Wow! Kind of reminds me about the time when I burned my Star Wars dvd sets. Lol... Watching all six go up in flames gave me pleasure. Lucas will never-ever get another dime from me.

Stargate franchise will be next to burn in our house. Since the writers want to cheapen Stargate with this sex junk, I might as well treat the dvd sets like the garbage they are now being expanded upon.

Lol! Well, enjoy yourself. It's not like you affect anyone else when you cut off your nose to spite your face. Are you sure there aren't more of your possesions you'd like to destroy while you're at it? If you're making entirely pointless gestures, you might as well really go for it! Perhaps you should destroy the television you watched stargate on, burn the clothes you wore.... Loads of ways to make a meaningless gesture even more meaningless!

Lightning Ducj
November 8th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Loads of ways to make a meaningless gesture even more meaningless!

I'll have to remember that line...so useful in so many situations...

Starrtom
November 8th, 2009, 07:56 PM
You convinced me of something. Instead of tuning in next week, I will burn my "Stargate: SG-1" dvd sets during the show's airing. Forget about watching "Stargate: Universe". Its time to start the burning.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Wow! Kind of reminds me about the time when I burned my Star Wars dvd sets. Lol... Watching all six go up in flames gave me pleasure. Lucas will never-ever get another dime from me.

Stargate franchise will be next to burn in our house. Since the writers want to cheapen Stargate with this sex junk, I might as well treat the dvd sets like the garbage they are now being expanded upon.

Huh!:(

Lord Hurin
November 8th, 2009, 08:16 PM
Not a chance. I already have "SG-1: Season One" dangling over a fire. If I were to give them away to someone else, that would be counter productive in what I'm trying to do. Oh, yeah! I'm getting ready for my SG-1 BBQ!

If the writers don't stay true to the Stargate franchise, (within the next episode of Universe), its bye-bye to my SG-1 DVD sets. Atlantis will follow its fate. I already have four other family members ready to burn theirs, and I'm talking to several others to join in on the BBQ. So far everyone is on board.

I give them one more week to get us back on track. Doomsday for my "Stargate: SG-1" and "Stargate: Atlantis" dvd sets are near.

We are going to have a full boycott on all "Stargate" products.

"That would be counter productive in what I'm trying to do."

...Which is what, exactly? Throwing away money? They have the money you paid for those DVDs already. You're not getting it back even if you do something stupid like burn them. It could also be harmful to yours and your family's health. I don't know exactly what a DVD is made of, or what gasses come off it while it's aflame, but I can't imagine it being healthy.

Seriously, it just infuriates and confounds me that you're so convinced that this is the right thing to do and that it will mean ANYTHING to ANYONE except yourself. How does what's in this show have any impact on what's been done already on SG-1? I promise, your DVDs weren't infected with a sex scene from being in the same room.

On another note, I find it strange that so many people object to sex so strongly. It's a fact of life. People have sex, it happens. I thought the days of closed-minded censorship and "sex without love/ for pleasure is evil" were behind us.

senilegreen
November 9th, 2009, 02:11 AM
On another note, I find it strange that so many people object to sex so strongly. It's a fact of life. People have sex, it happens. I thought the days of closed-minded censorship and "sex without love/ for pleasure is evil" were behind us.

"People have sex".... but not in other peoples' bodies!

What SGU is depicting is a form of rape.

Wow, and I thought SGU was geared towards a younger audience...

jcainhaze
November 9th, 2009, 02:20 AM
I kinda hope Telford has sex with Young's wife. Young's bleeding heart ca-ca boohoo pitty party is rendered 1st class garbage because of his smooching on TJ. So Young deserves whatever happens. And there's no one better than that jerk Telford to do it.

Vapor
November 9th, 2009, 03:07 AM
While I'm not going to cry if Young loses his wife, I also don't think that two wrongs make a right. It doesn't matter what Young did, you don't just go sleep with someone else's wife for the sake of revenge. You speak to your commanding officer and get it handled the right way.

ciannwn
November 9th, 2009, 09:06 AM
"People have sex".... but not in other peoples' bodies!

What SGU is depicting is a form of rape.

Wow, and I thought SGU was geared towards a younger audience...

It's not geared towards a younger audience as in teenagers and children. It just means that they're aiming for viewers up to their 40's rather than 50+

We first saw body swapping in SG-1 when Daniel and Vala ended up in the Ori galaxy and alerted the Ori. This was the start of an epic adventure which didn't really make us think of the issues involved in body swapping. We next saw it in SGA but again, it happened in another galaxy in an action adventure show so we didn't think of the issues involved from this either.

In SGU the body swapping issue is brought very close to home because it's being illustrated with ordinary, everyday life situations. The Asgard decided that Earth humans were the Fifth Great Race and handed over all their advanced technology. Earth humans have also acquired advanced technology from other sources, including the Ancients. SGU is now showing us members of the Fifth Great Race who aren't neccessarily using advanced technology as wisely or as responsibly as they should.

Lord Hurin
November 9th, 2009, 09:14 AM
"People have sex".... but not in other peoples' bodies!

What SGU is depicting is a form of rape.

Wow, and I thought SGU was geared towards a younger audience...

I know this, and I don't condone what happened here. I should've been more clear, but I was talking about in general. Every time there's been a sex scene, or a sexually suggestive scene in SGU, people are up in arms over it.

Like some people have said, perhaps the body swapping participants sign a waiver that basically gives the other person free reign. I actually hope so, since I really like Young's character and don't want him coming off as a scumbag.

wizelf
November 9th, 2009, 11:13 AM
Here's my take on the whole issue.

During the show, someone mentioned to Eli that there were certain rules to follow. It is perhaps the case that these rules included intimacy. Perhaps they all agree to certain things while inhabiting another person's body. After all, if harm were to come to the borrowed body while the stones are in use, the "soul" (or whatever it is) would perish with that body as well. So, it technically belongs to that person for that amount of time. Does this mean that it is OK to do whatever? Of course not, but there are certain things that can be expected. Intimacy with one's spouse is one of those things that could be expected if the parties agreed. I think Telford was surprised, but who's to know if they didn't agree to this?

If we go by the logic of the people screaming rape, then everything they go the bathroom or take a shower with the "borrowed" body, could be a form of rape. Actually, if you really think about it, having control over another person's body is already raping it.

It's a show, it's meant to entertain and make you think. You don't like it, don't watch it.

rlr149
November 9th, 2009, 11:47 AM
why is young the bad guy here? he was relieved of his command AND his body, as in was not allowed to return to his body a billion light years away. why should he not treat the body he's been forced into as his own? why is the fact he was prevented from returning not as outrageous as him sleeping with someone?

Lord Hurin
November 9th, 2009, 12:19 PM
why is young the bad guy here? he was relieved of his command AND his body, as in was not allowed to return to his body a billion light years away. why should he not treat the body he's been forced into as his own? why is the fact he was prevented from returning not as outrageous as him sleeping with someone?

This actually brings up a good point. Young was in this for the long haul; if the plan failed but DIDN'T cause the ship to explode (or so Telford thought) then I think Telford would still have been left in charge of the mission. Hence the reason for his "we've gotta get that fixed" comment. If he was going to be in Young's body long-term then they couldn't just be swapping out every once in a while.

So yeah, Young's body was essentially hijacked as well.

Replicator Todd
November 9th, 2009, 12:21 PM
why is young the bad guy here? he was relieved of his command AND his body, as in was not allowed to return to his body a billion light years away. why should he not treat the body he's been forced into as his own? why is the fact he was prevented from returning not as outrageous as him sleeping with someone?
Exactly. At the time Young thought that body was now his.

Sheppard141
November 9th, 2009, 01:00 PM
I know this, and I don't condone what happened here. I should've been more clear, but I was talking about in general. Every time there's been a sex scene, or a sexually suggestive scene in SGU, people are up in arms over it.

Like some people have said, perhaps the body swapping participants sign a waiver that basically gives the other person free reign. I actually hope so, since I really like Young's character and don't want him coming off as a scumbag.

Personally I don't like the constant sex in every episode. In 15 years of SG-1 and SGA there was never anything like this. You don't need to have it in a show for that show to survive.

Mongoletsi
November 9th, 2009, 01:19 PM
well, since i think st and sga are awful scifi shows, i don't care

qft.

Maxum
November 9th, 2009, 01:21 PM
why is young the bad guy here? he was relieved of his command AND his body, as in was not allowed to return to his body a billion light years away. why should he not treat the body he's been forced into as his own? why is the fact he was prevented from returning not as outrageous as him sleeping with someone?

Exactly. Young was relieved of command and "left" in Telford's body, and I'm pretty sure that Telford was more than happy to take command of Destiny, as he's said several times that Young should be relieved of duty because he won't conform to the IOA. That adds another layer to this discussion. Does hijacked bodies have any say? Does the IOA and/or Telford have any moral obligation to Young, Eli, and Chloe for refusing to allow them to return to their bodies aboard the Destiny and yet also risking their lives in that if the experiment goes wrong on the ship, everyone dies. THEY are determining the outcome of the lives aboard the Destiny.

wizelf
November 9th, 2009, 05:29 PM
why is young the bad guy here? he was relieved of his command AND his body, as in was not allowed to return to his body a billion light years away. why should he not treat the body he's been forced into as his own? why is the fact he was prevented from returning not as outrageous as him sleeping with someone?

Excellent point. The whole concept of taking over someone else's body is invasive enough to start with.

Mitchell82
November 9th, 2009, 06:02 PM
This actually brings up a good point. Young was in this for the long haul; if the plan failed but DIDN'T cause the ship to explode (or so Telford thought) then I think Telford would still have been left in charge of the mission. Hence the reason for his "we've gotta get that fixed" comment. If he was going to be in Young's body long-term then they couldn't just be swapping out every once in a while.

So yeah, Young's body was essentially hijacked as well.

Very well put I agree with this assessment.

Hallowed are the...
November 10th, 2009, 07:43 AM
Because no one knew about it ahead of time. The only reasons there are so much outrage is because no one has seen the context and because it gives certain axe grinders a reason to scream about the show.

I personally hope the future wray/rush scene is tasteful, artistic and tender- just so people look more foolish than ever for crying about it.

While the scene itself might be artistic and tender, Wray's fury had best be unimaginable. She is triply violated acording to the spoilers: she is a lesbian, Rush (gasp!) is not; she hates Rush, Rush (gasp!) does not; and she is not even in the room to protest, and Rush... well he is in the room but I doubt he is protesting.

The Telford and Young body swap was more humorous too: did you SEE the look on Telford's face? Priceless...

mparsons1981
November 10th, 2009, 04:33 PM
The Telford and Young body swap was more humorous too: did you SEE the look on Telford's face? Priceless...[/QUOTE]



What is humorous about it? He is being raped for gods sake!! But because he's a guy he doesn't care?!!

That woman was completely irresponsible. She should be arrested, but wait how would you try it in court without revealing the stargate program to the public.

Mitchell82
November 10th, 2009, 10:18 PM
What is humorous about it? He is being raped for gods sake!! But because he's a guy he doesn't care?!!

That woman was completely irresponsible. She should be arrested, but wait how would you try it in court without revealing the stargate program to the public.

It wasn't rape not in the eyes of the law or the context of the ep. Both men thought they were trapped that way and as far as Young knew permanently. This was the only way he could have sex with his wife.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 11th, 2009, 01:04 AM
It was still Telford's body. Just because Young thought he was trapped in it until further noticed doesn't mean Telford never planned on returning to it.

katikatnik
November 11th, 2009, 01:26 AM
First: Re: the whole "we don't know to what they consented or not" thing - then we, as we the viewers, should have been told. When viewers start having a debate about what they do or don't know then the writers did a bad job getting their point across.

Second: The moment the stones were used more than once and on purpose, SGC should have come up with a set of basic rules for the... "body users". They are military for Pete's sake, they have rules for everything from hair cuts to how you should make your bed. But somehow they ommit the rights of the "body owner" vs. "body user"? How... convenient for the writers.

Third: IMHO, if you do not give an explicit consent to sex, it's a rape.

Skydiver
November 11th, 2009, 06:12 AM
A reminder to folks

First, the topic is 'why is there no outrage' in regards to the young/telford/emily scene. It's not the time or place for your commentary on other fans' posts.

Second, speculation and spoilers for future episodes MUST be put in tags. Not everyone knows or wants to know what's potentially coming

Saquist
November 11th, 2009, 09:54 AM
I didn't get outraged because I did not see it.
At least not in it's entirety. I knew another mock pornographic scene was coming and I moved on. I tuned back in after exactly one minute.

Girlbot
November 11th, 2009, 09:58 AM
It has put a different light on my feelings about Young, although it appears :
Telford might get his revenge

Phenom
November 11th, 2009, 08:59 PM
First: Re: the whole "we don't know to what they consented or not" thing - then we, as we the viewers, should have been told. When viewers start having a debate about what they do or don't know then the writers did a bad job getting their point across.

Second: The moment the stones were used more than once and on purpose, SGC should have come up with a set of basic rules for the... "body users". They are military for Pete's sake, they have rules for everything from hair cuts to how you should make your bed. But somehow they ommit the rights of the "body owner" vs. "body user"? How... convenient for the writers.

Third: IMHO, if you do not give an explicit consent to sex, it's a rape.

Completely agree re the second point. The military have rules on how many centimetres your pillow has to be from the fold in your bed. Obviously there would be strict rules on what you can and can't do when in a body swapping moment. Shagging your wife would be on the 'Don't do what Johnny Don't does' list.

On your third point, completely agree. These scenarios are rape every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Captain Obvious
November 13th, 2009, 02:07 AM
What is humorous about it? He is being raped for gods sake!! But because he's a guy he doesn't care?!.

Assuming they used protection I personally wouldn't have been too angry. Its not like his wife is unattractive by any means. To me, the issue of rape is the violation and the forced submission of another individual. If there is another consciousness in the body ( in the case of split/multiple personalities for example) there is no rape. Yes, it could be considered disrespectful, and in the situation on the destiny, quite dangerous and irresponsible.

Also, again, I will be making the following speculative argument-

The odds of anyone having any form of birth control with them on board is extremely nil. This leads me to speculate that we might see a surprising result from the Rush/Wray copulation. My money is on Wray getting pregnant, hating Rush for causing it, and having to break it to her partner that she is coming home with a child.

Ming Na has the acting chops to pull it off, but sadly it would fuel the "ZOMG SOAP OPERA" fires.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 13th, 2009, 07:03 AM
So its not rape if somebody has sex with an unconscious person but uses protection?

JohnDuh
November 13th, 2009, 08:52 AM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape

No they didn't. You are lying.



telford could be gay for crying out loud why isnt anyone outraged

I saw it with 5 people and they all laughed when that scene came on but then they were adult and know this is just some fantasy rubbish and not real.

DarkAsgard
November 13th, 2009, 11:55 AM
Personally I don't like the constant sex in every episode. In 15 years of SG-1 and SGA there was never anything like this. You don't need to have it in a show for that show to survive.

I second that, lately it just doesn't feel like the SG series that I grew up with. The days of battling strange aliens, stellar space battles, and exploring strange new worlds is being replaced with sex scenes, people gushing over relationships, etc. Science fiction should be about broadening your possibilities about things beyond your daily lives not whether that hot dude is hooking up with that girl or that that girl's ex is cheating on her with her best friends.

I dunno it just troubles me that the days of fighting strange aliens like the Wraith, the Borg are forever gone replaced by human looking cyclons and the Visitors.

Saquist
November 13th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Certain ones would call that progress.
I'd agree if progress didn't imply betterment instead of engrossing depravity.

I've always yearned for a truely alien creature on the regular basis. I hope for something like or beyond species 8472. I sense that SGU is still afraid of a real story. Atlantis seemed to start of strong and then ...it submerged and never came up for air after season 4.

rlr149
November 13th, 2009, 12:30 PM
Science fiction should be about broadening your possibilities about things beyond your daily lives

having sex in anothers body is beyond my daily life. how much broader do you want your possibilities?!?!?

Saquist
November 13th, 2009, 01:00 PM
The day I consider having sex in someone elses body "broadening our daily lives" is the day I'm sure it would be considered without consent a form of rape.

rlr149
November 13th, 2009, 02:00 PM
The day I consider having sex in someone elses body "broadening our daily lives" is the day I'm sure it would be considered without consent a form of rape.

maybe so, its still broader than what you do now though.


broadening your possibilities about things beyond your daily lives thats what was asked for and they have it, a possibility has been posited and now we should be outraged apparently............... not so much of the broadening then i guess!!

Alder
November 13th, 2009, 04:07 PM
When the news about camiles body being used for sex came out everyone shouted rape
No they didn't. You are lying.
Well...the discussion certainly came up...

Ya think? Considering she's a woman who just got raped. And not just by Perry, I've seen the sides, Rush goes ahead despite the fact he knows its not Wray in her body

Is the rape by body-swapping a joke as well?

However, yes, the writers of SG thought Lucius Lavin was A-OK, and obviously had NO concept of 'date rape drugs', etc.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=68312

First reference to the word is, I think, page four. And it comes up intermittantly throughout the rest of the thread, I just couldn't be bothered quoting more folk, it's 25 pages long...

Lord Hurin
November 13th, 2009, 04:38 PM
Assuming they used protection

And really, is there any reason for them not to have done so? None that I can see, and plenty of reason to have used it.

Mongoletsi
November 13th, 2009, 04:48 PM
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of double standards between men and women when it comes to sex. For instance, a man sleeps around and its no big deal. Woman does it, and she's a slut.
Thankfully that perception is fading around these here parts. I applaud my girlie friends who get what they want, and generally get jealous too ;)

Mongoletsi
November 13th, 2009, 04:49 PM
So its not rape if somebody has sex with an unconscious person but uses protection?
I take what I can.

JOKING!!