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Prometheus 1
November 6th, 2009, 08:50 PM
How sick was that? Just watching...I can foresee a really cool battle scene..(drooling) equal to that of BSGs finale!

Pharaoh Atem
November 6th, 2009, 09:06 PM
How sick was that? Just watching...I can foresee a really cool battle scene..(drooling) equal to that of BSGs finale!

well there could be a incursion before the season is done

Gatebsg
November 6th, 2009, 09:12 PM
Not a fan of the sound effects :S

Pharaoh Atem
November 6th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Not a fan of the sound effects :S

to me it sounded like the rainguns on the 303's and 304's

Mardius
November 6th, 2009, 09:15 PM
i wasnt quite expecting there to be that many cannons on it

MattSilver 3k
November 6th, 2009, 09:28 PM
My first reaction was, "Holy s***! That's a lot of guns!"

:D Awesome.

Shpinxinator
November 6th, 2009, 09:48 PM
My first reaction was "ain't they waisting ammo?"

garhkal
November 6th, 2009, 09:59 PM
How sick was that? Just watching...I can foresee a really cool battle scene..(drooling) equal to that of BSGs finale!

It did kind of remind me of BSG's point defense systems. And i love how many weapon blisters there were. BUT if that little firing they did was all it took to drop from 40% to where it needed to refuel, it makes me wonder how long it could keep it up in a protracted battle... Does not look that long.


to me it sounded like the rainguns on the 303's and 304's

I think they just used the same sound effects.

Pharaoh Atem
November 6th, 2009, 09:59 PM
My first reaction was "ain't they waisting ammo?"

it looked like it was a energy based weapon so no ammo needed

meo3000
November 6th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Another proof that the "last tribe" of Asgard in Pegasus used tech based on the Ancients. Not just the suits, but the railguns too. That also means we can assume they will eventually find yellow projectile handguns.

At last, its getting interesting.

Nemises
November 6th, 2009, 10:04 PM
it looked like it was a energy based weapon so no ammo needed

so every time they fire they would deplete all the ships energy ? seems like a pretty wank system to me.

Pharaoh Atem
November 6th, 2009, 10:14 PM
so every time they fire they would deplete all the ships energy ? seems like a pretty wank system to me.
old design the ship could do more millions of years ago now yes it would be pointless

Chevron999
November 6th, 2009, 10:14 PM
It did kind of remind me of BSG's point defense systems. And i love how many weapon blisters there were. BUT if that little firing they did was all it took to drop from 40% to where it needed to refuel, it makes me wonder how long it could keep it up in a protracted battle... Does not look that long.

They would have a problem if they were to run into the "Universe Asgard" or Universe form Replicators, much so if the encounter is between galaxies, and Destiny has no stars to eat....:mckay:

Pianomancuber
November 6th, 2009, 10:24 PM
so every time they fire they would deplete all the ships energy ? seems like a pretty wank system to me.

Yeah, but keep in mind that the ship is absurdly old and is definitely not functioning properly. Furthermore they weren't at full power, and there were "leaks" in the power conduits for the weapons array.

Replicator Todd
November 6th, 2009, 11:24 PM
I wonder if the Destiny also have other weapons systems, something similar to missiles or such.

leiasky
November 6th, 2009, 11:29 PM
I liked the sound of the weapons firing. Did wonder how the 40% energy reserve was depleted so fast, tho. Am looking forward to seeing it in battle.

WindowsME
November 6th, 2009, 11:34 PM
It did kind of remind me of BSG's point defense systems. And i love how many weapon blisters there were. BUT if that little firing they did was all it took to drop from 40% to where it needed to refuel, it makes me wonder how long it could keep it up in a protracted battle... Does not look that long.



I think they just used the same sound effects.

One can only assume they fired the weapons for hours or come under the assumption that the ship is as weak and archaic as it's mentioned. Through my perspective, I fell those on board the Destiny will eventually seize a majority of 80 percent uninhabitable sectors of the ship, allowing for further scenarios to play out.

Mardius
November 7th, 2009, 02:10 AM
anyone else the scientist guy saying that they only activated 40% of the available weapons...i shudder to think what that thing can unleash with 100% of the weapon systems active

UniverseSizePlotHole
November 7th, 2009, 02:44 AM
I hope the rate of fire can be controlled eg faster fire at lower yield per shot.

Solokiller
November 7th, 2009, 04:21 AM
I don't think they fired the big guns we saw before, so how powerful would those be compared to the small ones that did get fired?

reddevil18
November 7th, 2009, 05:12 AM
so every time they fire they would deplete all the ships energy ? seems like a pretty wank system to me.Considering that the ship just needs to take a dip into a sun whenever it runs low on power, it's a pretty kick-ass system, if you ask me.

The problem was that the ship was just at under 40% power reserves after "Light", for whatever reason. Maybe just like a normal rechargeable battery, in time, you can never fully recharge it.
At its peak, yeah, I'd say it was an astounding system.

thekillman
November 7th, 2009, 05:22 AM
i was like, "cool. cool."

*computer shows the entire destiny firing dozens of cannons *

" AMAZING!"

segaxgames
November 7th, 2009, 06:11 AM
The destiny coud -- hypothetically -- beat deadalus class

Orion Antreas
November 7th, 2009, 06:13 AM
so every time they fire they would deplete all the ships energy ? seems like a pretty wank system to me.

They probably had the weapons firing on a continuous cycle for a long period of time. That would deplete power no matter how advance it may be. We probably only saw a small snippet of how long they were actually firing.

Buba uognarf
November 7th, 2009, 08:00 AM
The destiny coud -- hypothetically -- beat deadalus class

Destiny has shields able to resist stars and judging by its weapons enough to easily pulverize a 304.

jds1982
November 7th, 2009, 08:08 AM
Another proof that the "last tribe" of Asgard in Pegasus used tech based on the Ancients. Not just the suits, but the railguns too. That also means we can assume they will eventually find yellow projectile handguns.

At last, its getting interesting.

How is that proof of anything, except that they both fire yellow blobs of energy?

AVFan
November 7th, 2009, 10:22 AM
The destiny coud -- hypothetically -- beat deadalus class

The Destiny could hypothetically do anything. For all we know, those energy weapons could have less of an effect than railguns, or they could be more powerful than Asgard beams. We have absolutely no idea.

wkw427
November 7th, 2009, 10:49 AM
I doubt the boat would be able to put out 100 shots before it had to go take a dip in a star.. How many shots did they fire to drain the batteries? Less then 100..

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I doubt the boat would be able to put out 100 shots before it had to go take a dip in a star.. How many shots did they fire to drain the batteries? Less then 100..

What, did you go get a sandwich during that scene? There was a *lot* of shooting in all directions simultaneously

Nem0rz
November 7th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Not a fan of the sound effects :S


totally agree, they were cheesy for one thing plus space is a vacuum - we should not hear weapons fire if viewing from the outside of the ship.

the-alguroan
November 7th, 2009, 11:33 AM
we also have no idea how long they were doing that for they could have been shouting for an hour to hours. they weren't specific with that, but that had to be at least an hour

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 11:43 AM
we also have no idea how long they were doing that for they could have been shouting for an hour to hours. they weren't specific with that, but that had to be at least an hour


If you wanted to, which I don't :) , you could probably piece together a timeline based on the activities on earth

Pat1487
November 7th, 2009, 11:47 AM
I was surprised at how many weapons it had

I guess the ancients wanted to be prepared for anything and everything when they gated back to their ship

MechaThor
November 7th, 2009, 11:49 AM
The only thing I don't get is the time frame. The power from "Light" seemed to run critically low very fast. Its understandable that the weapons systems may be taxing but a couple of months power drained away in what felt like mere minutes (maybe an hour or 2), that just seems rather illogical. That means that after any lengthy space battle its off to find a star again....

Its like Atlantis's ZPM's all over again. They have power for thousands of years, then you plug it into Atlantis raise the shields a few times and its a 0 power before the end of the week. And I thought my Laptop was bad at draining power.

reddevil18
November 7th, 2009, 11:56 AM
I doubt the boat would be able to put out 100 shots before it had to go take a dip in a star.. How many shots did they fire to drain the batteries? Less then 100..Why on Earth would you assume that the 10-second shot of the Destiny going all-out is all that it took? Sorry if I sound like an ass, but...that's some deficient reasoning you got there...

reddevil18
November 7th, 2009, 11:57 AM
I doubt the boat would be able to put out 100 shots before it had to go take a dip in a star.. How many shots did they fire to drain the batteries? Less then 100..Why on Earth would you assume that the 10-second shot of the Destiny going all-out is what it took? Sorry if I sound like an ass, but...that's some deficient reasoning you got there...We don't know exactly how long the ship kept shooting.

Cory Holmes
November 7th, 2009, 12:07 PM
While the sounds in space thing is annoying, every other sci-fi show (with the exception of Firefly) has them. Even the incredibly over-hyped BSG has them, as does every other show with "Star" and "Gate" in its title.

Now, as for watching the Destiny's little light show, I have but this to say:


http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu63/CoryHolmes/drooling_homer_2.gif

Pat1487
November 7th, 2009, 12:09 PM
The only thing I don't get is the time frame. The power from "Light" seemed to run critically low very fast. Its understandable that the weapons systems may be taxing but a couple of months power drained away in what felt like mere minutes (maybe an hour or 2), that just seems rather illogical. That means that after any lengthy space battle its off to find a star again....

Its like Atlantis's ZPM's all over again. They have power for thousands of years, then you plug it into Atlantis raise the shields a few times and its a 0 power before the end of the week. And I thought my Laptop was bad at draining power.

They fired at full weapons for a few hours, and the power efficiency on them sucks since the ship is in such bad shape
The power was drained very quickly because of it
The ship is also only at less then 40% of the max power capacity


Atlantis was in much better shape, but the ZPMs were not
The ZPMs they started with were almost completely drained from running the shield underwater for thousands of years, and any time they found new ZPMs they always ended up in a situation that brought them to almost completely drained

MechaThor
November 7th, 2009, 12:30 PM
They fired at full weapons for a few hours, and the power efficiency on them sucks since the ship is in such bad shape
The power was drained very quickly because of it
The ship is also only at less then 40% of the max power capacity


Atlantis was in much better shape, but the ZPMs were not
The ZPMs they started with were almost completely drained from running the shield underwater for thousands of years, and any time they found new ZPMs they always ended up in a situation that brought them to almost completely drained

That's fair enough. But I still think that a few hours was still alittle too fast. Even if they was all being fired at once it just still seems like several months worth of power could be drained that fast + FTL to a suitable star (of-course we still don't know just how fast this FTL is).

Maybe if they also turned al the lights on, found away to increase the shield output and attempt to dial the gate I could understand the sudden power drop.

Ukko
November 7th, 2009, 12:37 PM
I thought the Destiny's weapons were awesome. Also makes me more curious as to who the hell managed to damage Destiny so badly.

UAGoalieGuy
November 7th, 2009, 12:52 PM
I thought the Destiny's weapons were awesome. Also makes me more curious as to who the hell managed to damage Destiny so badly.

Probably a fleet of ships. That and the Destiny running into rouge space objects like Metors and comets. I think the Destiny would work the entire Earth fleet of 304's.

The ship easily has over a dozen cannon's on it and shields that can withstand being inside of a star.

thekillman
November 7th, 2009, 01:34 PM
and shields that can withstand being inside of a star.

shields generate power by flying into a star, not drain.



I think the Destiny would work the entire Earth fleet of 304's.
dont think so. the 304's will make short work of it. the question is, WHAT on the Destiny burns out first. besides, i think the Oddy can take it alone. far more power behind it's shields and weapons.



also, atlantis drained so much power, not even portable nuclear powerplants could power it fully (save shields and weapons). really, what sucks up that power?


oh and, just the crew and the FTL drive shouldn't take up THAT much power. there are electric bikes which burn more energy than a few dozen households.

Lightning Ducj
November 7th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Maybe if they also turned al the lights on, found away to increase the shield output and attempt to dial the gate I could understand the sudden power drop.


Chloe left her hair dryer plugged in

MechaThor
November 7th, 2009, 01:50 PM
The ship easily has over a dozen cannon's on it and shields that can withstand being inside of a star.

That's because they where designed to do so, on top of the fact that the Destiny powers its own shields with the star while inside it, the perfect loop.

We have seen in past Stargate that some shields can be made to block certain things, while not block others (i.e. Goa'uld personal shields).

Think of the shields like Earth made protective clothing and armor. A radiation suit may protect you from radiation, but won't stop a bullet, while a bullet proof vest may be effective at stopping a bullet but not against heat or radiation. Or how a space suit will protect you from space, but a knife could stab right through it (the soft bits I mean).
Therefore while star proof we have no idea how Alien weapons fire might react to the shields or something solid like an asteroid or comet.

Hopefully by the end of the series these questions might be answered, as a space battle is on my SGU wish list.

Ouroboros
November 8th, 2009, 12:16 AM
I was pretty disappointed to see "slow moving glowing balls of... something" repeated again as a weapon system.

I figured they were going for a more pseudo realistic type feel for this show, and this definitely put a dent in that feel. Come on, can't they think of anything else other than the glowing blobs of slow moving goo again? I would even have been happy with ancient satellite type beam weapons but this was just the same old cliche for the billionth time being trotted out again.

"Look at our bad ass ship! Just don't try to fight us from more than a few kilometers away or we'll be completely helpless."

Every ship in stargate suffers from this problem. The closet they ever got to a viable weapon system for space warfare was 304 nuclear missiles, but they were way too slow and they failed to use them correctly.

This glowing blobs of goo thing though, this needs to end, and not just in Stargate either. It's a genre wide megacliche that's persisted since at least the original star wars in 1977.

Descended
November 8th, 2009, 12:49 AM
I was pretty disappointed to see "slow moving glowing balls of... something" repeated again as a weapon system.

I figured they were going for a more pseudo realistic type feel for this show, and this definitely put a dent in that feel. Come on, can't they think of anything else other than the glowing blobs of slow moving goo again? I would even have been happy with ancient satellite type beam weapons but this was just the same old cliche for the billionth time being trotted out again.

"Look at our bad ass ship! Just don't try to fight us from more than a few kilometers away or we'll be completely helpless."

Every ship in stargate suffers from this problem. The closet they ever got to a viable weapon system for space warfare was 304 nuclear missiles, but they were way too slow and they failed to use them correctly.

This glowing blobs of goo thing though, this needs to end, and not just in Stargate either. It's a genre wide megacliche that's persisted since at least the original star wars in 1977.

Kinda hard to show a laser based weapon system that travels at the speed of light. You wouldn't be able to see the beam travel since space is a vacuum and light beams are only visible when diffracting off dust particles in the air. You would see the turrets glow and then the target explode. Doesn't make for an epic battle feel.

Ouroboros
November 8th, 2009, 01:33 AM
Kinda hard to show a laser based weapon system that travels at the speed of light. You wouldn't be able to see the beam travel since space is a vacuum and light beams are only visible when diffracting off dust particles in the air. You would see the turrets glow and then the target explode. Doesn't make for an epic battle feel.

At this point I'd settle for just a "probably more visible than it realistically should be" red "laser" beam that actually seemed to propagate at light speed and had a maximum range to match, just to finally get something different for a change.

They could even color it whatever color they want and just call it a particle beam or something. Lets just get rid of the horribly short ranges and shots that move with all the urgency of a speeding tree slug.

thekillman
November 8th, 2009, 03:26 AM
well even IF blobs are used (and i'm fine with that), i get annoyed by the insane slowness.

perhaps the Arcturus weapon had the fastest bolts we ever saw on Stargate.

and those weren't that fast either.


no, i REALLY like to see bolts going so fast, you can barely see them. they're almost a stream of light.


THAT would be cool.

Encoder
November 8th, 2009, 05:28 AM
Nah those weapons are seriously flawed. The only true power is from the single continuous beam weapons that Star Trek used on the Starfleet ships and that the Asgard beam weapons (Ori beam weapons) eventually received on our F304's.

Such a large buildup for such a small duration of payload. Very 20th century!

:sheppard:

Sim
November 8th, 2009, 06:54 AM
We were giving basically no reference point on how long they fired those weapons for. I don't want to call it "lazy writing", but they definitely just glazed over it very quickly like they were avoiding a question.

Almost as bad as their flashbacks without telling us when this took place (one of the things I didnt like about BSG.)

Otarush
November 8th, 2009, 07:54 AM
I think that with the conduits damaged and such a lot of power was leaking away or being used to push power through areas with high resistance. And for all we know, these are like Asgard beam weapons per shot. At least, I hope so, because that would be awesome. :D

greenmen
November 8th, 2009, 08:47 AM
We were giving basically no reference point on how long they fired those weapons for. I don't want to call it "lazy writing", but they definitely just glazed over it very quickly like they were avoiding a question.

Rush went from his chat on the observation balcony to some place inside the ship, came up with a plan to improve their odds, talked to the other scientists about it and then talked to Telford before the lights went finally out in that scene.

Most likely, that's about "a couple of hours", depending on how long it took him to plan everything. At the very least we can safely say it's a lot longer than those few moments we see in the show.

Nightfighter89
November 8th, 2009, 09:10 AM
I was pretty disappointed to see "slow moving glowing balls of... something" repeated again as a weapon system.

I figured they were going for a more pseudo realistic type feel for this show, and this definitely put a dent in that feel. Come on, can't they think of anything else other than the glowing blobs of slow moving goo again? I would even have been happy with ancient satellite type beam weapons but this was just the same old cliche for the billionth time being trotted out again.

"Look at our bad ass ship! Just don't try to fight us from more than a few kilometers away or we'll be completely helpless."

Every ship in stargate suffers from this problem. The closet they ever got to a viable weapon system for space warfare was 304 nuclear missiles, but they were way too slow and they failed to use them correctly.

This glowing blobs of goo thing though, this needs to end, and not just in Stargate either. It's a genre wide megacliche that's persisted since at least the original star wars in 1977.

Good points and true save for one thing: Drones.

The ancients were smart enough to solve the problem, just took 'em a while :D

ha'tak_
November 8th, 2009, 10:10 AM
to me it sounded like the rainguns on the 303's and 304's

yess I thought so also, it did look very much like a railgun and sounded

garhkal
November 8th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Probably a fleet of ships. That and the Destiny running into rouge space objects like Metors and comets. I think the Destiny would work the entire Earth fleet of 304's.

The ship easily has over a dozen cannon's on it and shields that can withstand being inside of a star.

Heck one ship could have done it. From what i saw it looked like THEY had to do stuff to make those weapons be usable. So maybe the other ship got in shots without being fired back on.


Rush went from his chat on the observation balcony to some place inside the ship, came up with a plan to improve their odds, talked to the other scientists about it and then talked to Telford before the lights went finally out in that scene.

Most likely, that's about "a couple of hours", depending on how long it took him to plan everything. At the very least we can safely say it's a lot longer than those few moments we see in the show.

Very true. And since he had to do it all without Telford knowing, that should have tacked on an hour or two more..

Ouroboros
November 8th, 2009, 02:03 PM
The ancients were smart enough to solve the problem, just took 'em a while :D

Drones are better than blobs certainly, they're basically missiles, but they still seem to be slow moving and overly short ranged. Even the shots where they attack from ground to orbit don't exactly show off impressive ranges in space combat terms, though the speeds do generally tend to improve in those scenes, but even that's more down to lazy FX inconsistency than it is to any kind of deliberate intent.

It's a problem with the whole way space combat is depicted. Lumbering or stationary ships a few ship lengths apart shooting slow moving colorful crap of some kind at each other until one of them explodes like it was full of gasoline.

Lightning Ducj
November 8th, 2009, 02:15 PM
It's a problem with the whole way space combat is depicted. Lumbering or stationary ships a few ship lengths apart shooting slow moving colorful crap of some kind at each other until one of them explodes like it was full of gasoline.

This is because space combat is extrapolated from either Aerial combat or Naval combat, depending in the situation. No TV show, or movie, that I know of has really taken a 'science-fctioni*' approach to space combat in terms of extrapolating from what we know to attempt to determine what combat in space would really be like. Very few deal with the fact that energy weapons travel at light speed and I don't think any deal with the fact that mirrors make effective shielding against light. So we get naval battles in space


*Just a personal note but I distinguish "science-fiction" from "sci-fi", but that's another discussion

omeeuk
November 8th, 2009, 02:44 PM
I'm impressed with the weapons system. I thought the sound effects were some sort of cross between 304 railguns and wraith weapon sound effects.

Someone mentioned how they were only using the little guns too. There are at least 6 massive triple-barrelled gun emplacements around the ship. My thinking is that these little guns may well be the point defence systems while the large ones may be the main long range weaponary or something.

You can see the huge size difference in this gateworld screencap:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=898&pos=265

The little guns seem to be retracted into their riveted domes. There a couple to either side and just in front of the central shuttle. Each one is next to one of those larger glowing domes. There are also a couple further back. Looking at other screencaps, it looks like these little riveted gun domes are located all around the ship. The big guns.. well they are pretty obvious. :D

Ouroboros
November 8th, 2009, 08:34 PM
This is because space combat is extrapolated from either Aerial combat or Naval combat, depending in the situation. No TV show, or movie, that I know of has really taken a 'science-fctioni*' approach to space combat in terms of extrapolating from what we know to attempt to determine what combat in space would really be like. Very few deal with the fact that energy weapons travel at light speed and I don't think any deal with the fact that mirrors make effective shielding against light. So we get naval battles in space


*Just a personal note but I distinguish "science-fiction" from "sci-fi", but that's another discussion

The real funny thing is that it's even extrapolated from a poor and/or horribly outdated understanding of both air and sea combat.

The air combat influences generally come in the form of "WW1 dogfights in space complete with getting on the other guys six and downing him with machine guns, and fighters that maneuver aerodynamically when there's no air to be found for billions of miles". I'm even hesitant to call what they show WW1 dogfighting because I'm betting even WW1 dogfights involved a lot more in the way of tactics than is typically depicted in any sci-fi show. I know WW2 dogfighting certainly did. I've always wanted to see someone do some kind of spoof episode in one of these shows where somehow a pilot like Manfred von Richthofen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_von_Richthofen) or Erich Hartmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann) is transported through time to lay waste to all that lays before him while laughing at how they can be both so advanced and so hopelessly backward at the same time.

You wouldn't think WW1 and WW2 German fighter pilots would represent the ultimate weapon in sci-fi fighter warfare, but give these guys a few weeks to learn the new controls and realize it's just a short bus version of what they already do, and I certainly wouldn't bet against them.

As far as the naval stuff goes it's even worse. They regress all the way back to the early age of sail with that one, with some Sci-fi even going so far as to work in boarding actions.

If they're just going to rip off air and naval combat, and I totally agree that that is what they do, it would be nice to see someone at least break the mold there to and rip off modern air and naval combat.

Lightning Ducj
November 8th, 2009, 08:46 PM
The real funny thing is that it's even extrapolated from a poor and/or horribly outdated understanding of both air and sea combat.


Yup!

KEK
November 8th, 2009, 08:46 PM
It could be a lot worse. Instead of technology we can't understand it could be like BSG, with people who have the ability to build space ships much more advanced than anything possible today, but with weapons systems that are stone-age by comparison. I mean seriously? One round from a large railgun would rip a battlestar in half, not to mention the laser technology we have now that would be able to take those nukes out with relative ease. You've just got to suspend your disbelief with this sort of thing, it's really not that important.

nx01a
November 8th, 2009, 08:50 PM
The system's pretty sick! Surround [sound] weapons are always sensible [to me, anyway] in space where the enemy or asteroid or whatever won't always be coming in right in-front of you. Now... for surround Asgard plasma beams on the 304s...

Phenom
November 8th, 2009, 11:12 PM
The guns looked great...however I thought it a bit odd that all it takes to use just under half power on Destiny is to shoot them off for 10 minutes or so. Even if it was 30 minutes it doesn't seem to be a lot.

Old ship I guess.

jcainhaze
November 9th, 2009, 12:22 AM
The guns looked great...however I thought it a bit odd that all it takes to use just under half power on Destiny is to shoot them off for 10 minutes or so. Even if it was 30 minutes it doesn't seem to be a lot.

Old ship I guess.

Yeah no kidding. I thought the same thing.

Ouroboros
November 9th, 2009, 02:32 AM
It could be a lot worse. Instead of technology we can't understand it could be like BSG, with people who have the ability to build space ships much more advanced than anything possible today, but with weapons systems that are stone-age by comparison. I mean seriously? One round from a large railgun would rip a battlestar in half, not to mention the laser technology we have now that would be able to take those nukes out with relative ease.

It falling victim to this tired genre cliche was really a shame as it did seem like they were trying for more realism by intentionally not using things like lasers and the ubiquitous glowing blob. I can even recall reading an interview where it was stated by someone involved with the show that they went with missiles and shells specifically because they wanted the combat to seem more realistic and less pie in the sky sci-fi.

The fact that this cliche of the spitting distance combat ranges and near stationary ships can still creep in when a production is actually going out of it's way to try and be more realistic just goes to show just how pervasive it is. It never even occurred to these guys that any solid projectile in space should actually have an effectively infinite maximum range, and a viable combat range determined mostly by how fast the enemy ship can see it coming and either get out of the way or somehow react to shoot it down before it hits them.

I really loved how some idiot decided that the large explosive shells the battlestars would fire just absolutely needed to glow to. "But, but, but, if it doesn't glow and slowly crawl across the screen the audience will be too stupid to understand how a gun works!".


You've just got to suspend your disbelief with this sort of thing, it's really not that important.

I've suspended my disbelief for years on this and now it's really more of a "come on not this **** again" thing for me than it is a "that's totally not realistic!" thing. Sure it's obviously not realistic but lots of things in sci-fi can be unrealistic without making me hate them. I don't hate this because it's so unrealistic, I hate this because it's ridiculously unrealistic and it's repeated so often that it's as if no one even tries to think about another actually original way of doing it. It's taken for granted that that's what space combat is now, glowing blobs flying back and forth between near stationary ships close enough together that they mind as well use swords and boarding planks". Basically I've seen it so often now it's just boring more than anything else to keep seeing it again and again and again.

reddevil18
November 9th, 2009, 03:47 AM
Drones are better than blobs certainly, they're basically missiles, but they still seem to be slow moving and overly short ranged. Even the shots where they attack from ground to orbit don't exactly show off impressive ranges in space combat terms, though the speeds do generally tend to improve in those scenes, but even that's more down to lazy FX inconsistency than it is to any kind of deliberate intent.

It's a problem with the whole way space combat is depicted. Lumbering or stationary ships a few ship lengths apart shooting slow moving colorful crap of some kind at each other until one of them explodes like it was full of gasoline.Space combat as a whole, as portrayed in most sci-fi is ridiculous. The very notion that you'd cram hundreds of giant vessels into a relatively small place and have some of the capital ships just zipping by is retarded. To me, BSG has(sometimes) had what is most likely the real stance the military would adopt in space warfare. The capital ships are a huge distance away, pounding away at each other with their main weapons, and using small fighters.
To me, the kind of space battle that we saw in Deep Space 9, with the huge armadas, as cool as it may look, is pretty much ridiculous.
But hey, it's sci-fi. Who knows?

reddevil18
November 9th, 2009, 03:50 AM
The guns looked great...however I thought it a bit odd that all it takes to use just under half power on Destiny is to shoot them off for 10 minutes or so. Even if it was 30 minutes it doesn't seem to be a lot.

Old ship I guess.
Oh, for the love of...
Why are you assuming it's 10-30 minutes?
It could have been hours. We have no way of knowing.

reddevil18
November 9th, 2009, 03:57 AM
No TV show, or movie, that I know of has really taken a 'science-fctioni*' approach to space combat in terms of extrapolating from what we know to attempt to determine what combat in space would really be like. Very few deal with the fact that energy weapons travel at light speed and I don't think any deal with the fact that mirrors make effective shielding against light. So we get naval battles in spaceYup. If I remember correctly, the Vorkosigan Saga, in terms of written sci-fi dealt with the whole mirror system.
We need to be honest with ourselves and realise it'll be a long time before the human race is capable of space warfare, but I think most of us realise it'd be nothing like what we see in movies or TV shows. And, well, that's because it'd most likely be friggin boring. It looks cool, it sells. End of story. And I can live with that. I'm more interested in good writing in terms of plot and characters than the realistic approach to action in sci-fi.

Lord Hurin
November 9th, 2009, 09:36 AM
I was pretty disappointed to see "slow moving glowing balls of... something" repeated again as a weapon system.

I figured they were going for a more pseudo realistic type feel for this show, and this definitely put a dent in that feel. Come on, can't they think of anything else other than the glowing blobs of slow moving goo again? I would even have been happy with ancient satellite type beam weapons but this was just the same old cliche for the billionth time being trotted out again.

"Look at our bad ass ship! Just don't try to fight us from more than a few kilometers away or we'll be completely helpless."

Every ship in stargate suffers from this problem. The closet they ever got to a viable weapon system for space warfare was 304 nuclear missiles, but they were way too slow and they failed to use them correctly.

This glowing blobs of goo thing though, this needs to end, and not just in Stargate either. It's a genre wide megacliche that's persisted since at least the original star wars in 1977.

I had to laugh at this since it's pretty true. Unfortunately, the way a lot of people on here are (wanting to write off SGU as a rip of the series that came before it) if we'd had reddish "phaser-like" beam weapons, we would've gotten a lot of "I toldz u this wuz StarGate Voyager! The gunZ r tha sayme!" :D

Plus, as others have said, we haven't gotten a look at the "main" weaponry in action yet, (which I appreciate, since you probably need that command code to get those up and running,) so I'm hoping they won't just be large versions of the smaller cannons we saw here.

As one last question, how far do you want the range to be? I mean, certainly it would be bad if Destiny fires and misses the target only to have the beam hit Earth in a couple billion years or so... :P

Jeff-B
November 9th, 2009, 04:01 PM
My wild speculation was that they were going to drop out of FTL, and just open fire wildly. What if there had been an alien ship of some kind right there when they opened fire? The alien ship just happens to be sitting there, minding its own business, then suddenly a huge unidentifiable ship shows up out of nowhere and opens fire? Not going to make the Destiny many friends out there.

Phenom
November 9th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Oh, for the love of...
Why are you assuming it's 10-30 minutes?
It could have been hours. We have no way of knowing.

Time in SGU seems to pass at a fairly normal rate and it just didn't feel like hours and hours had passed before they had run out of power.

reddevil18
November 9th, 2009, 05:18 PM
Time in SGU seems to pass at a fairly normal rate and it just didn't feel like hours and hours had passed before they had run out of power.Events don't occur in real time. Air through Light was like 3 days, but Water was 3 weeks after that. We have no idea how long the guns kept firing.

Eternal Density
November 9th, 2009, 06:28 PM
Also we have no idea how much power was in each of those shots. They might have packed an incredible amount of energy into each blob, which is of course still inferior to drones because they can't be steered so you waste a lot of energy if you miss :D
Probably a fleet of ships. That and the Destiny running into rouge space objects...Maybe it was the Rouge Angles of Satin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RougeAnglesOfSatin)?

Ouroboros
November 9th, 2009, 09:03 PM
As one last question, how far do you want the range to be? I mean, certainly it would be bad if Destiny fires and misses the target only to have the beam hit Earth in a couple billion years or so... :P

Right now I'd be satisfied with any range that was beyond visual range really. Basically just show that it is possible for one ship in space to hit another even if the people at the windows can't see the people in its windows waving back at them.

If you were dealing with something more realistic like true laser weapons, or anything else that propagates at or near light speed, you'd be looking at ranges likely of at least a light second or more so long as the focusing method isn't ****e. With lasers it's more about how well you can focus the beam and how much power you can throw behind it that will determine its range as a weapon.

A light second (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Distance_From_Earth_to_Moon_In_Light_Seconds.gif) is a little less than the distance between the Earth and the moon.

With solid projectile weapons like missiles and rail guns though there is really no such thing as a maximum range. Once you fire something off in space it'll keep going and going and going just like an asteroid or comet, until it either hits something, falls into a gravity well somewhere or comes to some other calamity.

This is also true of a missile. As long as you can shut the engine down it can boost itself up to whatever speed and coast forever saving whatever remaining fuel it has for maneuvering in to attack something. You could theoretically bombard a fixed or predictable target like a planet from the outskirts of the solar system it was in if you were willing to wait for your missiles to get there. If the missiles accelerate as fast as the various ships or faster at sub light speeds this needn't even be very long.

Vs another ship a solid projectile weapons effective (not maximum) range is going to be limited more by how fast the projectile travels, any stealth or evasion capabilities it has, and how fast the other ship can see and react to it incoming, either by getting out of the way or shooting it down somehow. Your effective range will be different against different types of targets in other words. Small nimble ships with good sensors and alert crews you'll need to get closer to hit reliably, a big wallowing freighter with a second rate auto pilot flying in a straight line you can probably fire at from a distance it'll take your shots minutes to cover and still nail the thing. Unlike with a laser there's no "maximum" range where the beam will scatter too much to really be viable as a weapon anymore.

kirmit
November 13th, 2009, 03:24 AM
I remember someone saying a GIF should be made of the ship firing, so here you go.
http://i34.tinypic.com/4vfrsj.gif

Mongoletsi
November 13th, 2009, 03:30 AM
My wild speculation was that they were going to drop out of FTL, and just open fire wildly. What if there had been an alien ship of some kind right there when they opened fire? The alien ship just happens to be sitting there, minding its own business, then suddenly a huge unidentifiable ship shows up out of nowhere and opens fire? Not going to make the Destiny many friends out there.
The chances are astronomically slim. <- I chose every word there carefully ;)

Mongoletsi
November 13th, 2009, 03:31 AM
I remember someone saying a GIF should be made of the ship firing, so here you go.
http://i34.tinypic.com/4vfrsj.gif
Yay! And now somebody will have it as their signature. Woot!

Mongoletsi
November 13th, 2009, 03:33 AM
To me, BSG has(sometimes) had what is most likely the real stance the military would adopt in space warfare.
Agreed. Another thing I used to like about BSG is the really dull, muted sounds - in space you wouldn't hear anything. Sadly they did away with that in later series. Firefly was totally silent, I think?

Anon
November 13th, 2009, 03:37 AM
Yay! And now somebody will have it as their signature. Woot!

wont let me no animated images.

Ouroboros
November 14th, 2009, 06:20 AM
Agreed. Another thing I used to like about BSG is the really dull, muted sounds - in space you wouldn't hear anything. Sadly they did away with that in later series. Firefly was totally silent, I think?

Yep, and I loved it. Very creepy at times. Space really should be just a little bit creepy always.

Nightfighter89
November 14th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Agreed. Another thing I used to like about BSG is the really dull, muted sounds - in space you wouldn't hear anything. Sadly they did away with that in later series. Firefly was totally silent, I think?

That is one thing I love about Firefly. They didn't do that with the movie so much though, when particularly in that huge battle between the alliance and the reavers, but would that have been nearly as fun to watch without cool sound effects? :jonas:

And actually that's one typical sci-fi battle that wasn't hyper-unrealistic.

Dan1879
November 15th, 2009, 05:36 AM
it looked like it was a energy based weapon so no ammo needed

It was without doubt an energy weapon, after all they were firing the weapons to drain ENERGY! Not ammo.

Merlin's_Legacy
November 20th, 2009, 02:40 PM
I'm sitting here having a bit of a chuckle at all the people claiming all energy weapons HAVE to travel at the speed of light to be realistic. That seems like a general failure of imagination to me.

First case: A particle beam weapon. A beam of electrons, protons, etc will NOT travel at the speed of light. Close too it maybe, but it depends on how much energy is used in the acceleration system. You're not going to deflect these with lasers.

Second Case: Consider a hypothetical plasma burst weapon where a superconducting material is vaporized and then energize to form a self-sustaining ball of super-hot plasma. That "miniature sun" would then need to be accelerated down some sort of barrel and sent on it's way toward the target. No way you're going to get a large ball of gas to move at the speed of light.

Third case: A weapon incorporating sci-fisics. Let's assume we have a weapon's system that is able to grab hold of the fabric of space, crumple it into a little ball, and then stuff that little ball full of subspace energy and send it on toward the target. Who says what speed this is going to move at? Who says it moves at all? Maybe it just appears at the target. Maybe it will sort of poke along and gain speed exponentially as it gathers up energy from passing through space. Only the person that writes the show can determine that.

I just don't see how you can accept the Satrgate itself, Hyperdrive, FTL without Hyperdrive, and yet it's the weapons that you find unbelievable????