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graculus
December 23rd, 2004, 12:35 AM
Bored with Jack/Daniel/Thor, and now think I see Daneil/Vala sparkage. Bring on the fic and onscreen innuendo. Anyone else shipping for Daniel/Vala yet?

Later,
Graculus

Im_just_guessing
December 23rd, 2004, 11:24 PM
I think Browder should get Vala.


I saw some pic with both of them together (must be a photoshop or something) they just look right together.




:P

graculus
December 23rd, 2004, 11:29 PM
Can you imagine how complicated this could get? UST between Daniel and Vala, UST between Ben Browder's character and Vala. UST between Daniel and Ben Browder. And that's on top of whatever other Daniel pairing you might have a previous loyalty to.

If you're someone who doesn't mind a little USTiness when it's well done, this could be wild. The potential just for displaced rivalry is staggering.

Later,
Graculus

lionel_pendergast_rocks
December 24th, 2004, 07:17 PM
im a fan of daniel/sarah. they need at least one good episode. vala and anyone else is fine with me, but it would be kind of weird if browder and vala got together.

MartoufMarty
December 24th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Okay, I just watched Prometheus Unbound today and I just have to laugh.

Those two (Daniel and Vala) just seem so quirky with each other.

Did you see the way they were fighting? That was hilarious! (Almost made me laugh as much as the Buffy musical which I also watched today)

They were pulling ears, and hair and what-not lol.

And Daniel was 'squishing her head'. That was great.

They're quirky together, and quirky is cool. Can't wait for her to show up again.

Oh and the part with her dressed as a super-solider and saying how Daniel was attractive and what-not... The look on Daniel's face was priceless lol.

graculus
December 24th, 2004, 09:10 PM
I think there's undeniable chemistry, enough to shine through a slapstick situation. I hope there's the same level of innuendo when Vala returns, even in a "serious" arc.

My thought is that Daniel gets worked up by people who frustrate him, and her physical strength is a plus in his book. She challenges him, and he respects her abilities. Plus Daniel just looks good when he's sweaty and panting.

On an even shallower level, if that's possible, I think Daniel looks better with someone with dark hair and/or somewhat exotic features. I never bought the string of blonds that paraded by him.

Vala might drive Daniel insane, but I think Daniel's at the Schopenhauerian point where boredom/rut needs to be relieved by anxiety. Vala is stimulating on a lot of levels. I think that the audience now knows her well enough to at least buy some flirtation, later.

I also like the fact that Vala equates to Daniel's age on the show. Daniel is mid-career age with a lot behind him. Daniel is not, and has never been, a post-pubescent young'un. It's nice to see him paired with a woman that reinforces the idea of his character as written.

Later,
Graculus

david2708
December 24th, 2004, 09:12 PM
More ship and another 10 million male viewers switch off in droves to something more interesting.
I really don't need to see a Sex In The City Stargate, thanks.

graculus
December 24th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Are you proposing that 10 million viewers departed after Prometheus Unbound? I think not. That level of innuendo is harmless.

There are good arguments against ship, but resorting to cheap catch-phrases and hyperbole is not effective. The reason is that it doesn't reflect any thought: just reactionism. Come back with your actual feelings about how innuendo between Daniel and Vala will make the show less interesting.

Later,
Graculus

david2708
December 24th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Haven't seen the ep. I just HATE ship stuff of any description. It just BORES me stupid.

graculus
December 24th, 2004, 09:33 PM
I agree a lot of onscreen ship is forced and can damage the show. At the same time, attraction is one of the fundamental human stories. Why should writers limit their options? I bet when it's done right, you don't even notice it's there: ship should always be secondary to the main theme of a show. Stargate isn't about who is dating who. Shipping just rounds things out.

If you hate Stargate ship, you have a reason to be glad about Vala. She throws a wrench in a few of the traditional fandom ships. Now there's a question of apostasy. Things could get very interesting, indeed. :-)

Later,
Graculus

Hathor999
December 25th, 2004, 12:58 AM
Sorry but please no! I never liked the way the show deals with ship. (Sam and Jack is the most boring romance I have ever seen!). But Daniel/Vala would be the worsest ship they have ever done. If there must be any ship for Daniel than give him Sarah or bring ShaŽree back or do even Daniel/Sam but not Vala! Sorry but I think that she is the worsest female character the Stargate writers have ever created! (Even Anise/Freya donŽt annoyed me so much). I hope desperatly that this time the ship will only happen in fanfic!

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 01:30 AM
I love Vala and she can be with ever she want, she is SpacePirate after all although Daniel and Vala are cute :o

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/tayson/cbsg1-167.jpg

Kalliope
December 25th, 2004, 02:28 AM
Vala is a great character, with huge potential. Let better writer to pen S9 episodes with her and Daniel and everything will be perfect. David Kemper would be ideal choice ;)

Margaret
December 25th, 2004, 04:20 AM
Anyone else shipping for Daniel/Vala yet?


Only in the realm of fun, games and insane speculation.

I propose Vala kidnap Daniel and take him to Atlantis. Why? Because he wants to go, and she would enjoy the ride!

I favor those who say that Vala is going to be Daniel's Maybourne: someone who is totally untrustworthy who may nevertheless help him out on occasiion. She may save his life one of these days. He may be in the uncomfortable position of defending someone who really ought to be in jail. (Notwithstanding that we don't know of any jail that can hold her.)

Meanwhile, Vala's loopy attraction to Daniel, and Daniel's attendant discomfort are gonna make me laugh. (I can see Sam being amused, too, and trying not to laugh. Nah, she'll laugh. She's gonna razz Daniel about his "fruitcake" girlfriend.)

I like the "SpacePirate" designation! Vala is crazier than Capt. Jack Sparrow!

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 05:39 AM
Only in the realm of fun, games and insane speculation.

I propose Vala kidnap Daniel and take him to Atlantis. Why? Because he wants to go, and she would enjoy the ride!!
i like it . maybe Daniel will like it too...



I like the "SpacePirate" designation! Vala is crazier than Capt. Jack Sparrow!
yeah! the name just pop to my head and you'r right she's crazier than Jack Sparrow!!! LOL.

graculus
December 25th, 2004, 08:54 AM
I love the idea of Vala as Daniel's Maybourne, but I wouldn't object to flirtation and innuendo, either. I think it's possible to do both.

As for the fears about the way PU was written, the Stargate writers aren't going to be churning out comedy eps for an entire 5 episode arc (::crosses fingers:: ). If Vala does indeed belong to a band of ragtag survivors, that could fuel a new political storyline.

On a shallower note, IMHO she looks a lot better with Daniel than Sarah. I think Sarah is a great character: I thought she was terrific as Osiris, and I hope to see her coping with the aftermath in future episodes. I just never saw the chemistry with Daniel. I see a lot more chemistry with Vala.

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 25th, 2004, 09:03 AM
hmmm I so can't wait till it's on in the states... I heard they weren't love intrests on the ep, and I herd they were... I don't know what to belive. I want to see it badly. And NOW.

haha BTW valaCB... I beat you to it ;)

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 09:15 AM
haha BTW valaCB... I beat you to it

LOL. i was looking for you...;) who took Vala's name!!! :D


that could fuel a new political storyline
that could be cool idea.

graculus
December 25th, 2004, 09:21 AM
My friend and I gave ourselves an early viewing for Christmas. Best present either of us got, lol.

Later,
Graculus

Faraway
December 25th, 2004, 09:27 AM
All in all, it should be interesting how the play Ben and Claudia together when both are on the show. These two have amazing chemistry ;) and it isn't just because they were John and Aeryn on Farscape. I saw them at the Farscape con in November and they were awesome together.

I can't wait to see them on the same screen and see how they play off together as different characters.

graculus
December 25th, 2004, 09:54 AM
Now if Ben's character and Daniel also have chemistry, this could be the Triangle From Hell!

Better start stocking up on popcorn now...

Later,
Graculus

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Now if Ben's character and Daniel also have chemistry, this could be the Triangle From Hell!

Better start stocking up on popcorn now...

Later,
Graculus

i hate tringle :S Vala and Daniel is enough :cool:
if some1 want to see Claudia and Ben together, go see Farsacpe . They are great together! but not here, on SG1.

graculus
December 25th, 2004, 11:55 AM
Oooh, but triangles make the OTP so much sweeter...

Later,
Graculus

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 11:58 AM
Oooh, but triangles make the OTP so much sweeter...

Later,
Graculus

ammm...what's OTP?

Vala
December 25th, 2004, 12:18 PM
ammm...what's OTP?
one true pairing... although I usaly think that your favorite ship is your OTP not just all the little ones you hold. Mine would be John/Aeryn most days Spike/Dru on others.

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 12:26 PM
one true pairing.
really??? lol ok.
i still hate triangles

Vala
December 25th, 2004, 12:27 PM
one true pairing.
really??? lol ok.
i still hate triangles normaly so do I.

valaCB
December 25th, 2004, 12:37 PM
i think that Daniel and Vala have lots of chemistry and i like it. with Ben's character as a triangle... we know that B&C have lots of chemistry... i wonder if the writer will do something with the 3 of them. or maybe it will be Vala and Daniel only or maybe Vala with everyone (SpacePirateGirl :p )

Vala
December 25th, 2004, 12:41 PM
...or maybe Vala with everyone (SpacePirateGirl :p ) LOL I hope the don't do a BB/Vala thing, if (having not seen it) Vala and Daniel hit it off they should not have Ben's Character go... "Hey, didn't we meet at a party a while back" (wait that would be funny actuly lol)

graculus
December 25th, 2004, 12:44 PM
I would hate an overt triangle. But if no one wants to admit to attraction, and yet the triangle emerges through lowkey rivalry, then that would be fun. IMHO, of course.

I'm neither for nor against onscreen ships (like Sam/Pete): I will like it if it fits with the story. Since it depends on what the writers/actors actually do, I reserve judgment up front. I think Daniel/Vala could be fun onscreen, though.

Later,
Graculus

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 26th, 2004, 04:41 AM
I just can't see what would attract Daniel to Vala. He's not into getting beat up.

She's interesting-looking but not "strikingly beautiful."

Is she mysterious and alluring? Well, mysterious, certainly, but alluring? Daniel's immediate reaction was, "You're a fruitcake!"

Does she provide an ego boost? Far from it!

Does he want revenge? A chance to subdue her? Daniel is not into conquest and domination. I gather he prefers egalitarian relationships.

Well, that could be a plus with Vala. Daniel could enjoy a challenge from a woman who was his equal. Although, I don't think he's that competitive. He's more likely to root for her than to compete. Besides, I don't think he would consider being hijacked, bound, threatened with rape, and beaten, "a challenge." Kidnapping and aggravated assault would be more like it.

Does she appeal to the "bad boy" in him, the rebel?

What do we know about Daniel that is really bad?

1) He has an insatiable curiosity about other cultures, the older, the better.
2) He likes to rib Jack.
3) He hates the Goa'uld with a passion that sometimes exceeds reason.

I don't think #2 is going to do Vala much good. But #1 or #3 might give her an opening. If she could offer Daniel a chance to strike at the Goa'uld, or something fabulous, like the Library of the Ancients, she'd have an opening.

But I really have to say that her behavior would have to change drastically for Daniel to either like her or be attracted to her. And yes, I know, you don't have to like someone to be attracted to them. I just don't think Daniel is going to be the moth to be attracted to this particular flame.

valaCB
December 26th, 2004, 06:16 AM
She's interesting-looking but not "strikingly beautiful."

that's a fantastic reason for Daniel attract to Vala IMO


Is she mysterious and alluring? Well, mysterious, certainly, but alluring? i think she is very alluring maybe Daniel think so too .


Does she appeal to the "bad boy" in him, the rebel?
maybe. that could be one more reason to attract to Vala.


#1 or #3 might give her an opening. If she could offer Daniel a chance to strike at the Goa'uld, or something fabulous, like the Library of the Ancients, she'd have an opening.

agree.


But I really have to say that her behavior would have to change drastically for Daniel to either like her or be attracted to her. And yes, I know, you don't have to like someone to be attracted to them. I just don't think Daniel is going to be the moth to be attracted to this particular flame.
maybe she is too fast for him.we will see what happen in season 9 maybe she makes his world shake and maybe he need some1 to shake his world, maybe he like it. we didnt see any reaction from Daniel to PirateVala, we dont know what he thinks about her and that leave the writer opportunities for Vala and Daniel.

Vala
December 26th, 2004, 08:00 AM
She's interesting-looking but not "strikingly beautiful."
Personaly I think she is "strikingly beautiful"

Hathor999
December 26th, 2004, 08:01 AM
I just can't see what would attract Daniel to Vala. He's not into getting beat up.

She's interesting-looking but not "strikingly beautiful."

Is she mysterious and alluring? Well, mysterious, certainly, but alluring? Daniel's immediate reaction was, "You're a fruitcake!"

Does she provide an ego boost? Far from it!

Does he want revenge? A chance to subdue her? Daniel is not into conquest and domination. I gather he prefers egalitarian relationships.

Well, that could be a plus with Vala. Daniel could enjoy a challenge from a woman who was his equal. Although, I don't think he's that competitive. He's more likely to root for her than to compete. Besides, I don't think he would consider being hijacked, bound, threatened with rape, and beaten, "a challenge." Kidnapping and aggravated assault would be more like it.


I agree. I think the people who wants Daniel together Vala would like to see him in a sado-masochistic relationship. And I donŽt see him as a kind of person who is into something like that. He clearly not enjoyed what Vala had done with him. And I have never seen an episode where he seemed to enjoy it to be tortured. Far away from it. In "Meridian" he even deceied to give up is live to escape the physical and (maybe) psychological pain!

Daniels problem is that tries to often to see the good in the people he meets.
IŽm very glad that he donŽt fall to Valas manipultions!

IŽm against ship in the show (there is fanfic for that) but when he must be shipped on screen than please with Sarah or ShaŽre (if they find a way to bring her back) or even Sam but not with this space-dominatrix!

And Farscape fans please donŽt forget that in the next season Ben Bowder will play a main character (suppostly THE maincharacter) in the show. Are you so sure that you not only want Vala together with Daniel because he reminds you of Ben and you will hate the Daniel/Vala ship when BB is there?

Vala
December 26th, 2004, 08:07 AM
And dear Farscape fans please donŽt forget that in the next season Ben Bowder will play a main character (suppostly THE maincharacter) in the show. Are you so sure that you not only want Vala together with Daniel because he reminds you of John Crichton and you will hate the Daniel/Vala ship when BB is there? I would hate it if they put BB character with Vala... she isn't Aeryn, he isn't John why the hell would the writers try that. Anyway like i have said I haven't seen the ep yet so I don't know how the Vala character and the Daniel Jackson characters interact, but sadly if she kicks him around alot I'd probably ship for them lol j/k

Kalliope
December 26th, 2004, 08:10 AM
As for me, and I'm a HUUUUUGE Farscape fan and John/Aeryn shipper :), I hope Vala and Ben's character will be enemies. Really. And I can hardly wait for the next Vala/Daniel's meeting.

Hathor999
December 26th, 2004, 08:14 AM
I would hate it if they put BB character with Vala... she isn't Aeryn, he isn't John why the hell would the writers try that. Anyway like i have said I haven't seen the ep yet so I don't know how the Vala character and the Daniel Jackson characters interact, but sadly if she kicks him around alot I'd probably ship for them lol j/k

I have seen enough Farscape episodes - Scorpius!- to persume that Sado/Maso elements are very popular among the Farscpape viewers but sorry I find it only disgusting! If there are more episodes than "Prometheus Unbound" or Daniel(or anybody else) has a orgasmus when BaŽal is torturing him in season 9. Than IŽm GONE!

valaCB
December 26th, 2004, 08:16 AM
Personaly I think she is "strikingly beautiful"
WORD! :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/tayson/cbsg1-311.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/tayson/cbsg1-328.jpg

Kalliope
December 26th, 2004, 08:22 AM
I have seen enough Farscape episodes - Scorpius!- to persume that Sado/Maso elements are very popular among the Farscpape viewers but sorry I find it only disgusting!

Excuse me???!!! That wasn't nice. Farscape is MUCH MORE than that. You've seen too little of it.

MasterPower
December 26th, 2004, 08:32 AM
Gimme a break with this shipper crap!

Hathor999
December 26th, 2004, 08:43 AM
Excuse me???!!! That wasn't nice. Farscape is MUCH MORE than that. You've seen too little of it.

Maybe. I have seen the first season (and liked it so far) and many episodes of season 2 and 3. I stopped watching after the show gone too...extreme... for me to feel comfortable with it.

But if my opinion about Farscape is so wrong why goes already the first Stargate episode of the "new era" in exactly the same direction?

Hathor999
December 26th, 2004, 08:51 AM
I was kinda of joking there did you not notice the J/K (just kidding)

No sorry I have not seen it.

A last thing I want to say about this all. I have nothing against CB. And would Vala be more like Aeryn Sun in Farscape (were she was IMO a no-nonsens soldier type...agressive, brutal but honest and very proud and despite her peacekeeper training sometimes even caring) I would not be so much against the Daniel/Vala relationship!

Vala
December 26th, 2004, 08:54 AM
No sorry I have not seen it.

A last thing I want to say about this whole thing is that I have nothing against CB. And would Vala be more as Aeryn Sun in Farscape (were she was IMO more no-nonsens soldier type...agressive, brutal but honest and very proud and despite her peacekeeper training sometimes even caring) I would not be so much against the Daniel/Vala relationship!
haha but then she would be Aeryn Sun not Vala and that would be a bit more on the typecast side... I would be a bit ticked.

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 09:05 AM
Oooh, the debate is on!


He's not into getting beat up.

Daniel may be interested in someone who clocks in as his equal, though. He's used to being able to beat people intellectually, and he's not used to people who make him work for it. She's a challenge. I don't think she'll be pounding on him unless she's trying to steal a ship from him again.



She's interesting-looking but not "strikingly beautiful."

My vote is Daniel prefers interesting-looking women.


Daniel's immediate reaction was, "You're a fruitcake!"

She took away his powers of coherent speech, lol.


Does she provide an ego boost?

Is that what a significant other is for? Does Daniel provide an ego boost for her?


Daniel is not into conquest and domination. I gather he prefers egalitarian relationships.

I agree. But will anyone feel obligated to beat up anyone once the Prometheus is no longer an issue?



Does she appeal to the "bad boy" in him, the rebel?

Perhaps. Anyone else notice Daniel lost a lot of his Peaceful Explorer professional facade once he was the only one left on the ship? Then he was all snark and head-squishing. He's repressing a lot.


If she could offer Daniel a chance to strike at the Goa'uld, or something fabulous, like the Library of the Ancients, she'd have an opening.

I agree. And Daniel would need to get a chance to get to know her in less harrowing circumstances.


But I really have to say that her behavior would have to change drastically for Daniel to either like her or be attracted to her.

I agree that Daniel isn't going to be considering Vala's finer points while she's stomping on him, but I don't think their encounter says anything about her overall behavior. She is, technically, a pirate. She's pursuing a particular way of life, and she knows how to get her job done. This doesn't say anything about whether she's inherently a good or bad person. We would have to know more about her history and motives to make that call.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 09:21 AM
The debate continues...



people who wants Daniel together Vala would like to see him in a sado-masochistic relationship.

There's no evidence for this. The fighting was brutal because the prize was extremely valuable. Vala is probably used to encountering resistance when she wants to sieze a ship. She's a small woman who has learned to make the best of what she's got.

I would turn this around and ask whether Aris Boch would engage in a sado-masochistic relationship with Sam if they had become attracted to each other in the course of liberating Boch's people.



clearly not enjoyed what Vala had done with him.

Perhaps he didn't enjoy the right cross, but Vala pointed out that he was physically responding to the flirtation.


In "Meridian" he even deceied to give up is live to escape the physical and (maybe) psychological pain!

In Meridian, Daniel jumped through a glass window, a significant distance down to the floor, and subjected himself to massive amounts of radiation.


Daniels problem is that tries to often to see the good in the people he meets.

Daniel seems to be wary of this trait. He hit Vala back, and he regretted his hesitation when he started to apologize. He knows that a hostile situation may require a different approach.



shipped on screen than please with Sarah

I've never seen the attraction to Sarah. Not interesting enough, IMHO.


Are you so sure that you not only want Vala together with Daniel because he reminds you of Ben and you will hate the Daniel/Vala ship when BB is there?

Is this a fandom loyalty argument? Surreal. But don't forget that continued interest in Browder-Character/Vala could be used to argue for a triangle rather than a reason to block D/V ship.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 09:26 AM
but then she would be Aeryn Sun not Vala and that would be a bit more on the typecast side... I would be a bit ticked.

I strongly agree.

This would turn into a huge complaint from multiple sectors. Fandom would never hear the end of it.

Later,
Graculus

Major Clanger
December 26th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Perhaps we could just be a little more careful with our use of language and so on - it's an interesting thread and subject, but I would hate to have to bury it down in the GateWorld basement with the spiders and woodlice.

Just a friendly reminder that we don't make negative comments about people here just because they watch/see things differently.

Thanks for your attention

Major Clanger
GateWorld Moderator

Major Clanger
December 26th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Oh, and while I'm here: I'd love for some Daniel/Vala ship. A real grown up relationship, based on mutual attraction and someone willing to admit that s*x is involved.

Bliss!

keshou
December 26th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Vala's certainly different and intriguing and sexy and I think she would be someone who could challenge Daniel. I also like that she's a recurring character - no ship stuff in every show or ship between team members.

But true love? Hmmm.....I doubt it. I see more of a flirtation/UST that never goes much further.

But hard to tell at this point. We've seen Vala's act - but is that really who she is?? I think it's going to be a lot of fun to see Daniel and Vala meet again and I look forward to her return.

BTW, I loved Farscape and I adore John/Aeryn and I hope they don't try and bring that type of relationship to Stargate (between Ben's character and Vala)

I think it would be much more interesting if Ben's character and Vala were enemies or barely tolerated each other. Still a lot of room for their natural chemistry to be show-cased without trying to recreate the Farscape pairing.

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 11:00 AM
But true love? Hmmm.....I doubt it. I see more of a flirtation/UST that never goes much further.

My gut instinct is to agree with that. But I don't know everything that's going to happen on the show. The writer's may have some terrific vision of events - and romance might actually work in that vision. Think about it: Daniel's love for Shar'e plays an important role in the unfolding events of the Stargate universe. Romance doesn't have to be forced, superficial, external to the plot.

That said, most of the time onscreen romance does look forced or superficial: it wasn't part of the writer's vision. If the writers start trying to throw bones to Daniel/Vala fans, the ship probably won't come across as authentic. On the other hand, maybe the "5 episode arc" is something epic in scale. If Daniel can fall in love with Shar'e in a two hour movie, he can certainly get closer to Vala during a 5-episode arc.

Later,
Graculus

valaCB
December 26th, 2004, 11:26 AM
Oh, and while I'm here: I'd love for some Daniel/Vala ship. A real grown up relationship, based on mutual attraction and someone willing to admit that s*x is involved.

Bliss!
im with you :)

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 12:37 PM
I like to think that Stargate does a good job of maintaining s*x is implied when there's onscreen ship. It's when characters start waxing poetic that they get into trouble.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Given the issues raised in the feminism OT thread, I was wondering what people thought of Caveman!Daniel carrying Vala to the bridge...

Later,
Graculus

Dani347
December 26th, 2004, 01:11 PM
For myself, it's way too early to ship Vala/Daniel. I didn't see any UST or sparks or anything between them, because all the sex talk on Vala's part seemed to be nothing more than a way to distract him. I'm not one of those people who can start a ship for someones in the very first episode that they're together. That's not a slam against people who can, just that I can't. Because I need more than just chemistry, which can be seen in one episode. I need some indication that the characters have some kind of feeling beyond "he/she is attractive" to actually start shipping people.

And, lets not forget that when people shipped John and Aeryn, it was John and Aeryn, not BB and CB. And, I really hope the writers of Stargate realise this.

Margaret
December 26th, 2004, 09:38 PM
Oooh, the debate is on!

Well, you're a good sport!


Does she provide an ego boost?

Is that what a significant other is for?


No -- no, I tried to think of all the reasons a man might be attracted to a woman who was clearly not good for him. Then I evaluated each one.


I agree that Daniel isn't going to be considering Vala's finer points while she's stomping on him, but I don't think their encounter says anything about her overall behavior. She is, technically, a pirate. She's pursuing a particular way of life, and she knows how to get her job done. This doesn't say anything about whether she's inherently a good or bad person. We would have to know more about her history and motives to make that call.

Oh, sure, Sir Walter Raleigh was a pirate, Sir Francis Drake was a pirate, John Paul Jones was a pirate. "The last of Barrett's privateers" was a pirate -- that's how he wound up on a Halifax pier. Vala might have perfectly patriotic reasons for stealing a vessel.

One thing she is not going to be able to explain away, however, is striking a man whose hands are tied. If you hit a man, that's assault. If you hit a man who is bound, that's abuse. There might be a good reason for the former, but there's no excuse for the latter. None.

Of course, gratuitously zatting someone falls in the same category . . .

Look, if Vala's behavior changes, I'd be willing to consider the pleasures of ship. You're right, she could be anyone -- we don't know. But as things stand now, there's reason to believe she's a sociopath. I can't think of any reason why Daniel would be even mildly attracted to her, and I don't want him in an abusive relationship with a sicko woman.

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 10:04 PM
One thing she is not going to be able to explain away, however, is striking a man whose hands are tied. If you hit a man, that's assault. If you hit a man who is bound, that's abuse

Hmmm, I think Sir Walter Raleigh and/or Sir Francis Drake might have had absolutely know problem "encouraging" a Spanish prisoner this way. Hey, those guys dueled with pistols over snide remarks.

I agree that in a civilized society, striking a person is abuse. Striking a bound person is torture. U.S. society obviously has a problem holding onto it's claim to civilization in arenas of warfare, even when everyone is supposedly playing by the Geneva Convention. Out in Geneva Conventionless space, I'm not going to begin to imagine what Vala has been through and how she has come to conclude that slapping a bound prisoner around is the key to accomplishing her goals. She has the benefit of my doubt until she does something to prove she's inherently evil.

And let's look at Daniel's actions. He didn't use Aikido to gracefully sidestep Vala's punches: he punched back. The minute he hesitated, he paid for it: Vala might have already learned this lesson. Daniel didn't hesitate to go Caveman and throw Vala over his shoulder when he needed her on the bridge. And, come on, did he really *need* to undress her? Vala had already taken off the Supersoldier armor herself. Daniel just wanted Vala to wake up knowing he'd undressed her. That seems like a pretty sleazy tactic to me. And then there's the gratuitous zat. It's funny unless you start to wonder whether it always takes *two* to kill. Maybe some people have a lower tolerance for electrocution.

One of the things I especially liked about PU is that Daniel's personality became seem to become more irritable and snarky once he no longer had to keep up his professional facade for his colleagues. That tells me he's repressing quite a bit to maintain his reputation and get along peacably with what amounts to his family. The man needs an outlet. He needs to work through some anger. Vala makes him angry, which gives him an opportunity to work through it.

Once Daniel was exhausted, I think he was open to anything. I think the fight will still be out of his system when he sees Vala again. If she comes to ask for his help, I doubt bondage and slappage will be involved.

I suppose my own bias is that I don't really believe in sickos. I believe people are represented as sickos. People are driven to sicko behavior. Sometimes the stars align in a particular way, and someone does something randomly sicko. I don't believe anyone on this earth is an inherent sicko, though. If someone manifests as a sicko, then there are a lot of other people in the picture who have all done something wrong. JMHO.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 26th, 2004, 10:06 PM
i think she is very alluring maybe Daniel think so too .

I don't think so. He said, "You're a fruitcake!"


maybe she makes his world shake and maybe he need some1 to shake his world, maybe he like it.

This is a possibility. Maybe after he got done being scared out of his mind, after he calmed down a bit, he looked back and said, "That was exhilerating! Now I know why Jack liked black ops!"

It's possible but it doesn't really sound like Daniel. He hasn't reacted this way to facing danger in past. In Enemies, for example, he was scared to death and at the end, he tried to shake it off, but he didn't look like he was getting a rush from it.

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 10:14 PM
He said, "You're a fruitcake!"

Maybe this tipped Vala off to the fact he likes things that aren't easy to understand. The next logical step was a head butt!



He hasn't reacted this way to facing danger in past. In Enemies, for example, he was scared to death and at the end, he tried to shake it off, but he didn't look like he was getting a rush from it.

Daniel's evolved a lot over the years. By Fallen, he found "constant peril" rather stimulating.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 26th, 2004, 10:25 PM
The debate continues...



There's no evidence for this. The fighting was brutal because the prize was extremely valuable. Vala is probably used to encountering resistance when she wants to sieze a ship. She's a small woman who has learned to make the best of what she's got.

I would turn this around and ask whether Aris Boch would engage in a sado-masochistic relationship with Sam if they had become attracted to each other in the course of liberating Boch's people.

I would turn this around and ask if a man treated a woman this way, and if she found herself attracted to him, would this sound like the basis for a healthy relationship?



Perhaps he didn't enjoy the right cross, but Vala pointed out that he was physically responding to the flirtation.

I would be hard-pressed to point to one single thing Vala has said that we know to be true. On the other hand, we do know that she is a liar, a manipulator and a thief. Just because she said something, doesn't make it true. Allen Shore says that sort of thing all the time on Boston Legal. He says it to get a rise out of people, especially when someone is dressing him down for his bad behavior. It takes the focus off his bad behavior and embarasses the other person, insstead.

graculus
December 26th, 2004, 11:02 PM
I would turn this around and ask if a man treated a woman this way, and if she found herself attracted to him, would this sound like the basis for a healthy relationship?

I honestly think it depends on the context. Let's use Aris Boch as the example. He's knocked Sam out before. In the Sequel, Sam is giving him trouble, threatening to mess up his plan, so he throws a right cross. In normal circumstances, Sam may return the favor. This time, however, Sam realizes their mutual danger, so she doesn't retaliate. To the viewer, it looks like she has just been abused.

Aris Boch has now behaved brutally. However, if he later explains the situation to Sam, and Sam understands/writes it off, the viewer may be willing to write it off as well. Healthy relationships belong in suburbia: offworld relationships are stressed by war and other extreme circumstances. I don't approve of anyone hitting each other. But I think if the adventure is written so the characters understand and forgive, then the viewer ends up understanding and forgiving right there with them.


we do know that she is a liar, a manipulator and a thief.

I would say we know she will resort to lying, manipulation, and thievery. None of those things define her as a person. I agree that the lies make it impossible to give her upfront credit, and there is something Alan Shorish about her diversion tactics. If she's a person who is unlikely to tell the truth, though, she still has a truth. You have to look and listen to try to figure out where that truth is. I think Daniel would be up to that challenge.

However, I'm also going by what I saw in Daniel. I think Daniel was stunned when he first saw her: not just because she proved not to be a Supersoldier, but also because she was an intriguing woman (pun intended). I think Daniel was slow to react to what Vala was asking after the "size matters" comment because she was hitting a nerve, and it was causing him to zone. I think when Daniel was tired of fighting, he let Vala kiss him twice before he realized how he "should" be reacting. I don't think the "fruitcake" line was said with conviction: it was more like he was desperately trying to find something to say to all the craziness. And I also think Daniel resorting to "head pinching" was in all likelyhood a symptom of sexual frustration.

Is Vala good for Daniel? Probably not.
Was Daniel attracted? I think, yes.
Is Daniel confused about how he feels: yes.
Is Vala genuinely attracted to Daniel: I think, yes. But not enough to get in the way of her business goals. But I think the attraction would grow and the business decisions would recede as she got to know him.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 26th, 2004, 11:31 PM
Hmmm, I think Sir Walter Raleigh and/or Sir Francis Drake might have had absolutely know problem "encouraging" a Spanish prisoner this way. Hey, those guys dueled with pistols over snide remarks.

I agree that in a civilized society, striking a person is abuse. Striking a bound person is torture. U.S. society obviously has a problem holding onto it's claim to civilization in arenas of warfare, even when everyone is supposedly playing by the Geneva Convention. Out in Geneva Conventionless space, I'm not going to begin to imagine what Vala has been through and how she has come to conclude that slapping a bound prisoner around is the key to accomplishing her goals. She has the benefit of my doubt until she does something to prove she's inherently evil.

How about torturing Daniel with that device? True, we didn't get a scene like the one between Ba'al and Jack in Abyss, but I don't know if that's because Vala didn't have the time or didn't have the interest.


And let's look at Daniel's actions. He didn't use Aikido to gracefully sidestep Vala's punches: he punched back.

First of all, I don't know that Daniel knows Aikido. Myabe he should study it. (Maybe I'll put that on his New Year's Resolutions list. ;))

Secondly, if a man of Daniel's size and weight were to hit a woman full force, she would go flying across the room. She didn't even get her nose broken. He had to have been pulling his punches quite dramatically. (Not that I object to him hitting her.)


The minute he hesitated, he paid for it: Vala might have already learned this lesson. Daniel didn't hesitate to go Caveman and throw Vala over his shoulder when he needed her on the bridge.

This was a life-and-death situation. He needed her on the bridge, not yacking in the corridor.


And, come on, did he really *need* to undress her? Vala had already taken off the Supersoldier armor herself. Daniel just wanted Vala to wake up knowing he'd undressed her. That seems like a pretty sleazy tactic to me.

This part I don't understand and I don't have an explanation for it.

I did notice that he fed her, though.


And then there's the gratuitous zat. It's funny unless you start to wonder whether it always takes *two* to kill. Maybe some people have a lower tolerance for electrocution.

It *is* funny. It's also wrong. This is how cops get into trouble. And yes, we don't know for sure the full extent of the effect on the nervous system. It might be more dangerous than it looks. Unfortunately, the vey fact that it is non-lethal encourages people to use it more than is strictly necessary.


One of the things I especially liked about PU is that Daniel's personality became seem to become more irritable and snarky once he no longer had to keep up his professional facade for his colleagues.

I didn't see this. Daniel was up against an alien intruder trying to take over the Prometheus. He took military action against an enemy. He tried to talk his way out of captivity. His irritability seems to have been the result of being mistreated and I don't remember him being particularly snarky.




That tells me he's repressing quite a bit to maintain his reputation and get along peacably with what amounts to his family. The man needs an outlet. He needs to work through some anger. Vala makes him angry, which gives him an opportunity to work through it.

I really don't see a man "working through his anger." I see him fighting an enemy who has hijacked his ship.


Once Daniel was exhausted, I think he was open to anything.

He was?


I think the fight will still be out of his system when he sees Vala again. If she comes to ask for his help, I doubt bondage and slappage will be involved.

I don't think Vala wants to go hand-to-hand with Daniel again. She might zat him, if he gets in her way. Personally, I think she's liable to strand him in an isolated place without a way home. (He'll be angry about it next time they meet, and she'll be like, "What? Never mind about that. Listen to what i've got for you . . ." Then Daniel can either stick a cork in his frustration or miss out on the Find of the Century.)



I suppose my own bias is that I don't really believe in sickos. I believe people are represented as sickos. People are driven to sicko behavior. Sometimes the stars align in a particular way, and someone does something randomly sicko. I don't believe anyone on this earth is an inherent sicko, though. If someone manifests as a sicko, then there are a lot of other people in the picture who have all done something wrong. JMHO.

You don't believe in sickos, but you believe that Daniel is repressed? How does that work?

I believe that the terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" are overused. There are very few true sociopaths. But they do exist. The combination of aggression, lying, manipulation, torture, and sexually predatory behavior suggests to me that it is at least possible that Vala is pathological. Her behavior isn't randomly sicko, it is repeatedly and consistently aggressive, predatory and without evidence of conscience or remorse. The only exception I can find is that a lot of people are alive instead of dead, when it would have been easier for her to kill them. So that's something in her favor.

Maybe she's just the equivalent of a black ops agent. But then, I suspect some of those people don't have much conscience, either. Professional requirement.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:03 AM
How about torturing Daniel with that device?

She zapped him once, in the most innocuous place possible. I think it's equivalent of win Daniel zatted her later in the episode. If it's torture, it's torture with a very small "t". There are so many more heinous things she could have done.

Also, I just watched the fight scene again. Daniel tried to get in a second punch when he hit the wall. I think this needs to be seen as the equivalent of a male-male fight. They both seem to dump any gender issues early on.


Daniel knows Aikido.

Hey, it's *the* only martial art for a Peaceful Explorer. Don't you think Daniel probably learned self-defense before anything else?


He had to have been pulling his punches quite dramatically.

She was pulling her punches, too, if we look at the damage she *could* have done.


This was a life-and-death situation.

So, context does count...?


I did notice that he fed her, though.

I'm sure it was a date in some twisted Freudian sense...



This is how cops get into trouble.

That's exactly what I was thinking about!


His irritability seems to have been the result of being mistreated and I don't remember him being particularly snarky.

You're right - I was carrying over the impression of snarky from his initial response to Novak's hiccups. Which he made up for by his decent behavior in the elevator. But I still think Daniel wouldn't have done the head-pinching thing if the rest of the team had been there: he could have been beaten to a pulp, and he would have been trying to gut it out.


She might zat him, if he gets in her way.

And it seems Daniel set a precedent for gratuitous zatting.


Personally, I think she's liable to strand him in an isolated place without a way home. (He'll be angry about it next time they meet, and she'll be like, "What? Never mind about that. Listen to what i've got for you . . ." Then Daniel can either stick a cork in his frustration or miss out on the Find of the Century.)

ROTFL. I agree that Vala would do this. But that doesn't mean they aren't attracted to each other.


You don't believe in sickos, but you believe that Daniel is repressed? How does that work?

Sicko is a description of someone's character: it implies that a person always responds irrationally/violently - even when there are available "normal" options. I would argue that everyone's repressed to some extent. That's a function of group interaction and relationships. People don't always do what they want - they take into account other people. Sometimes they manage to convince themselves that what everyone else wants must be what they want. Psychology and socialization are funky that way.


There are very few true sociopaths. But they do exist. The combination of aggression, lying, manipulation, torture, and sexually predatory behavior suggests to me that it is at least possible that Vala is pathological.

If very few true sociopaths exist, isn't it possible that Vala is manifesting a learned response to her environment, reasonable in those terms? Even outright irrational behavior is a reflection/projection of an irrational situation - when there is no rational way to deal with it, the only thing left to do is express it. People who think it's okay to lie may have been punished repeatedly for telling the truth, or they've reached the end of their tolerance with everyone else lying around them. Noble self-abnegation can only be taken so far. I'd be willing to bet most people would start to compromise on their integrity once they were cornered into exile and starvation; and once your integrity breaks, anything becomes doable.


The only exception I can find is that a lot of people are alive instead of dead, when it would have been easier for her to kill them. So that's something in her favor.

I'm just sayin'... ;)


I suspect some of those people don't have much conscience, either. Professional requirement.

I agree. We may have to take another look at Jack's past here, before we judge Vala...

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 12:12 AM
I honestly think it depends on the context. Let's use Aris Boch as the example. He's knocked Sam out before. In the Sequel, Sam is giving him trouble, threatening to mess up his plan, so he throws a right cross. In normal circumstances, Sam may return the favor. This time, however, Sam realizes their mutual danger, so she doesn't retaliate. To the viewer, it looks like she has just been abused.

Aris Boch has now behaved brutally. However, if he later explains the situation to Sam, and Sam understands/writes it off, the viewer may be willing to write it off as well. Healthy relationships belong in suburbia: offworld relationships are stressed by war and other extreme circumstances. I don't approve of anyone hitting each other. But I think if the adventure is written so the characters understand and forgive, then the viewer ends up understanding and forgiving right there with them.

Vala may have had good reason for stealing the ship -- reasons that seemed good to her anyway, and that Daniel might understand. But slapping, torturing, and sexually molesting him is something I don't think she's going to be able to explain.



I would say we know she will resort to lying, manipulation, and thievery. None of those things define her as a person.

OK, I concede that there may be more to Vala than we know about. but I still say that given a pattern of lying and manipulation, there is no good reason to take her word for anything. Especially on the subject of whether Daniel is attracted to her.




agree that the lies make it impossible to give her upfront credit, and there is something Alan Shorish about her diversion tactics. If she's a person who is unlikely to tell the truth, though, she still has a truth. You have to look and listen to try to figure out where that truth is. I think Daniel would be up to that challenge.

I agree with this,

If there is even a spark of good in her, Daniel will find it -- that is his gift. And in that case, he might, indeed be attracted to her.

But under present circumstances, it's hard to see why he would.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:25 AM
But slapping, torturing, and sexually molesting him is something I don't think she's going to be able to explain.

Are you sure you would be so shocked by this if she were a man? Come to think of it, how about Ba'all? He's a lot worse: he engaged in no-holds-barred torture. But I'd still be interested in seeing him humanized by a surprise soft spot. He doesn't have to "explain" anything: we just accept he's Ba'al. Vala is Vala. She resorts to violent and manipulative behavior that we accept, but don't necessarily like, in soldiers. Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel. It's not like we got a crotch shot. ;)


a pattern of lying and manipulation, there is no good reason to take her word for anything.

ITA. And Daniel should be very, very wary around her, at least for the time being.


If there is even a spark of good in her, Daniel will find it -- that is his gift. And in that case, he might, indeed be attracted to her.

That's the Daniel that I fangirl! :)

And have some pity! Daniel's a workaholic. I'm under the impression he hasn't dated since his wife died. He's been either too busy or immaterial. He may be ready to consider some extreme possibilities just because she's there.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:53 AM
Oooh - thought of another point. In the presence of a putative super-soldier, Daniel shot first: he didn't stop to ask any questions. He said that he had expected the shot to kill. He would have felt mighty bad if he had succeeded: and then pulled the mask off to discover a human being. Daniel's initial violent, murderous reaction was based on his experience with super-soldiers: in his experience, all they do is kill. In Vala's experience, perhaps nice "healthy" interactions have gotten her nowhere...

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 01:01 AM
Are you sure you would be so shocked by this if she were a man?

Shocked? Who says I'm shocked?

I just don't think there's anyway you can spin torture, abuse, and molestation to excuse them.



Come to think of it, how about Ba'all? He's a lot worse: he engaged in no-holds-barred torture. But I'd still be interested in seeing him humanized by a surprise soft spot. He doesn't have to "explain" anything: we just accept he's Ba'al.

Sure, fine. That wouldn't make him a good person. It wouldn't even make him an OK person.



Vala is Vala. She resorts to violent and manipulative behavior that we accept, but don't necessarily like, in soldiers. Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel. It's not like we got a crotch shot. ;)

Wait -- wait a minute. Yes, violence and cunning are required of soldiers. No, sexual molestation is not. And saying "Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel," is like a rapist excusing his actions on the grounds that the victim "wanted it."



And have some pity! Daniel's a workaholic. I'm under the impression he hasn't dated since his wife died. He's been either too busy or immaterial. He may be ready to consider some extreme possibilities just because she's there.

In that case, he's wacked!

Pity?

How is getting involved with someone who will hurt him going to make him feel any better? Better he should go out and meet somone nice at the local coffeeshop, like Sam did. A woman like Vala, he doesn't need!

Later,
Graculus[/QUOTE]

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 01:15 AM
I just don't think there's anyway you can spin torture, abuse, and molestation to excuse them.

Then there may be no excuse for Jack. He must have blown his entire entitlement to look for happiness by now... :eek:


by what she might have been reading in Daniel," is like a rapist excusing his actions on the grounds that the victim "wanted it."

That would depend on whether the person in question did indeed "want it". They aren't a victim if they're a willing participant.

I just noticed that Daniel starts the head-squishing thing after Vala goes through some rather suggestive poses. I'm still inclined to read that as sexual frustration.


In that case, he's wacked!

Well, Sam did say he had "issues" in Chimera, lol.


How is getting involved with someone who will hurt him going to make him feel any better?

I don't think Daniel sees himself as 'hurt" - that would make him a victim. He sees a challenge, a sparring meet, a person that it will take 100 years to understand, a woman than can lick him in a fair fight (when he wasn't tied up), a resourceful woman who can get out of all sorts of jams for herself. I think in female company, Vala would be regarded as doling out the hurt, but I'm still not sure this would be the case in male company. Daniel is now used to a culture of combat and probably a whole lot of horseplay. I'm sure he realized that he couldn't have gotten off lighter when Vala zapped him.

IMHO, the best way to test the "truth" of the situation as Daniel sees it would be to observe what he does. When they next meet, will Daniel hide behind the nearest tree, fearing she will hurt him again? My prediction is he will stand up to her, she will keep trying to get the best of him, and we will see how it plays out from there. I definitely can't picture Daniel as her victim, though.

Later,
Graculus

Kalliope
December 27th, 2004, 01:22 AM
No sorry I have not seen it.

A last thing I want to say about this all. I have nothing against CB. And would Vala be more like Aeryn Sun in Farscape (were she was IMO a no-nonsens soldier type...agressive, brutal but honest and very proud and despite her peacekeeper training sometimes even caring) I would not be so much against the Daniel/Vala relationship!

Sometimes??? Have you seen "Farscape: Peacekeeper Wars" miniseries yet?

Kalliope
December 27th, 2004, 01:25 AM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

The first post in this thread is very interesting and should be here :)

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 01:47 AM
She zapped him once, in the most innocuous place possible. I think it's equivalent of win Daniel zatted her later in the episode. If it's torture, it's torture with a very small "t". There are so many more heinous things she could have done.

Maybe there are. I think it's disturbing enough that she wanted to abuse him 'just a little bit.'


They both seem to dump any gender issues early on.

I suppose.

The interesting thing is how much *we're* discussing gender!



Hey, it's *the* only martial art for a Peaceful Explorer. Don't you think Daniel probably learned self-defense before anything else?

I wish he had, but I don't have any evidence for that. He wouldn't have gotten mauled by Jack in Broca Divide. He could have dispatched the big bully at Hadante.



This was a life and death situation.

So, context does count...?

Sure, it counts.




I'm sure it was a date in some twisted Freudian sense...

I heard that just about everything Freud taught turned out to be wrong. ;)




Sicko is a description of someone's character: it implies that a person always responds irrationally/violently - even when there are available "normal" options.

This is true. It's not about what people do under exigency.


If very few true sociopaths exist, isn't it possible that Vala is manifesting a learned response to her environment, reasonable in those terms? Even outright irrational behavior is a reflection/projection of an irrational situation - when there is no rational way to deal with it, the only thing left to do is express it.

You seem to be describing the syndrome, rather than showing that it does not exist.

We don't know exactly what causes sociopathology. We're not even sure if it's a brain-based disease, the way schizophrenia is.

OK, for stealing the ship, Vala's actions could be rational. She says to Daniel, "Can I have the ship? No. OK, Discussion over." She knows he is not going to give her the ship and that negotiating for it would be fruitless. She's just going to take it. This is rational, reality-based thinking (even if it's not very nice.)

Slapping Daiel was not rational. He was tied to the chair, he wasn't a threat to her.

You say she might have been responding to her environment -- what environment? The environment on the Prometheus?

If she's responding to the environment somewhere else, then she's projecting that environment onto the Prometheus and responding to something that's not really there. That's irrational. It's irrational for her to punish Daniel for what someone else has done. She's not responding to any actual threat.

As for torturing him, I don't see what she expected to get out of that. Was she trying to get information? If so, then it was rational, if inneffectual.

And the sexual advances? As many have remarked, she seemed to be trying to throw Daniel off balance. Daniel was subjected to the mind-numbing, disorienting effects of the emotional roller-coaster ride that is sometimes use to try to "break" people being interogated. So maybe it was rational in a coldy calculated way. But Daniel (and most other people) thought she was just whacked.

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 02:07 AM
Then there may be no excuse for Jack. He must have blown his entire entitlement to look for happiness by now... :eek:

Well, let me put it this way -- if he hits Kerri, she should recognize that he's not good mate material.



That would depend on whether the person in question did indeed "want it". They aren't a victim if they're a willing participant.

Well, yes, the defination of rape is "without consent." But that doesn't give a rapist the right to read "consent" into the victim's body language. Even if the victim responds physically to sexual advances that doesn't mean he or she "wants" it. It means they're not in control of their bodily functions. It does not imply consent on any level, conscious or unsconscious,


Well, Sam did say he had "issues" in Chimera, lol.

Sure, but that interpretatiion of his dreams turned out to be completely wrong.



I don't think Daniel sees himself as 'hurt" - that would make him a victim. He sees a challenge, a sparring meet, a person that it will take 100 years to understand, a woman than can lick him in a fair fight (when he wasn't tied up), a resourceful woman who can get out of all sorts of jams for herself. I think in female company, Vala would be regarded as doling out the hurt, but I'm still not sure this would be the case in male company. Daniel is now used to a culture of combat and probably a whole lot of horseplay. I'm sure he realized that he couldn't have gotten off lighter when Vala zapped him.

You may choose to deny that Daniel is a victim, and Daniel may choose not to see himself as a victiom But the fact remains that he was a victim -- Vala did things to him against his will and without his consent. And as vulnerable and sad as it makes us feel to know that people can hurt us this way, for no reason, through no fault of our own, as scary as it is to know that we won't necessarily be able to stop it, this is the truth about what happened.

Daniel usually preferrs facing the truth to papering it over, so I believe he will have the courage to face what happened and to recognize that unless Vala's behavior changes drastically, any future encounters with her are likely to be abusive as wellt




IMHO, the best way to test the "truth" of the situation as Daniel sees it would be to observe what he does. When they next meet, will Daniel hide behind the nearest tree, fearing she will hurt him again? My prediction is he will stand up to her, she will keep trying to get the best of him, and we will see how it plays out from there. I definitely can't picture Daniel as her victim, though.

Well, I hope the experience doesn't shatter his self-confidence. Courage involves getting a handle on your fears, not lying to yourself about what actually happened. Daniel is a lot better off being honest about what happened, being wary of Vala, and not thinking of her behavior as a "game."

dreamhunter
December 27th, 2004, 03:16 AM
Wait -- wait a minute. Yes, violence and cunning are required of soldiers. No, sexual molestation is not. And saying "Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel," is like a rapist excusing his actions on the grounds that the victim "wanted it."

I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack OŽNeill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists???? Now I understand why Richard Dean Anderson isnŽt willingly to sign for another episode more! He was always very much engaged for human rights! That is also Stargates new direction. I hope Roland Emmerich has enough money to by the righs back from this people who own them now!

IŽm bitterly disappointed and wished I had never buyed any Stargate DVDŽs!

Jana

Kalliope
December 27th, 2004, 03:29 AM
You REALLY should read the first message in this thread: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

Kalliope
December 27th, 2004, 03:33 AM
Scapers love Vala, most of Gaters seem to hate her. Interesting... ;)

Dani347
December 27th, 2004, 06:16 AM
However, I'm also going by what I saw in Daniel. I think Daniel was stunned when he first saw her: not just because she proved not to be a Supersoldier, but also because she was an intriguing woman (pun intended). I think Daniel was slow to react to what Vala was asking after the "size matters" comment because she was hitting a nerve, and it was causing him to zone. I think when Daniel was tired of fighting, he let Vala kiss him twice before he realized how he "should" be reacting. I don't think the "fruitcake" line was said with conviction: it was more like he was desperately trying to find something to say to all the craziness. And I also think Daniel resorting to "head pinching" was in all likelyhood a symptom of sexual frustration.


What I saw was Daniel didn't know how to respond to Vala. You don't need to be attracted to be completely befuddled by someone who will use a Goa'uld weapon on you one second and the next make suggestive comments. He most likely was trying to play it safe. And, while he had some idea of how to respond to someone using violence, someone using sex in the same situation totally lost him. I'd say most of his slowness to react had nothing to do with him being attracted, but because Vala kept changing the rules. She's beating him up and then, with no warning, she starts kissing him. He's never met anyone like Vala, and he has to get his bearings. But, he has to keep getting them, because she never lets him reach any equillibrium. As far as the head pinching, all I saw was a sign of annoyance. Kind of like when someone is being a pest and you form your hands in the air like you're choking them.

Dani347
December 27th, 2004, 06:31 AM
I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack OŽNeill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists???? Now I understand why Richard Dean Anderson isnŽt willingly to sign for another episode more! He was always very much engaged for human rights! That is also Stargates new direction. I hope Roland Emmerich has enough money to by the righs back from this people who own them now!

IŽm bitterly disappointed and wished I had never buyed any Stargate DVDŽs!

Jana

Just a bit of clarification. So, far, this is only about Vala. There's no indication that BB's character will be anything like Vala.

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 08:23 AM
I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack OŽNeill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists???? Now I understand why Richard Dean Anderson isnŽt willingly to sign for another episode more! He was always very much engaged for human rights! That is also Stargates new direction. I hope Roland Emmerich has enough money to by the righs back from this people who own them now!

IŽm bitterly disappointed and wished I had never buyed any Stargate DVDŽs!

Jana

Jana, I'm so sorry I've upset you.

Fanfic writers have used SG-1 characters to explore serious human rights issues for years. I don't think the Boys at the Bridge had any such intentions, though. I think this episode was intended to be a comedy: Vala is a "bad girl" who gives Daniel a hard time.

Graculus and I may be discussing this at a deeper level than it really warrants. The folks at the studio played it for laughs. If you want to just sit back and enjoy it as slapstick comedy, that's an OK position to take. It's probably what the writers intended, anyway. No one thinks they're really that deep.

Please don't give up on Stargate just 'cuz I run off at the mouth . . . er, keyboard.

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 08:29 AM
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

The first post in this thread is very interesting and should be here :)

I agree. This is really excellent.

Thanks for pointing it out!

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 08:38 AM
Scapers love Vala, most of Gaters seem to hate her. Interesting... ;)

:)

Well, I don't hate Vala, but do you think Daniel Jackson is attracted to her? Or ever *might* be attracted to her?

And even more, do you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing for him if he were? ;)

MagnoliaAnaglypta
December 27th, 2004, 08:52 AM
And, come on, did he really *need* to undress her? Vala had already taken off the Supersoldier armor herself.
You know, you're absolutely right. Daniel's only excuse for taking off the bodysuit would be Vala's own claim that it still deflected zat blasts. But since he had in fact zatted her which had knocked her very successfully, it was clear that the suit didn't live up to her claims, and therefore he had no real excuse for removing it.

This is a rather disappointing reflection on Daniel.

MartoufMarty
December 27th, 2004, 08:59 AM
Yeah, I didn't really like the whole thing with 'undressing'.

Love the fight though. That was hilarious. It's like they were having a big cat fight or something lol.

Another pointless part of the episode Prometheus Unbounded was after Hammond was taken back to their little crap Alkesh and the whole 'mouth to mouth' thing. Why did they have to have that in there? It seems quite pointless to me.

MajorSam
December 27th, 2004, 09:10 AM
They should TOTALLY be together!!! Sarah is too good for Daniel, he needs someone like Vala! I mean, that fight, you just can't deny it!!! They are sooooooo doing each other!!! :D Ship everywhere, it's BRILLIANT! (hintsamjackhint)

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 09:51 AM
it's disturbing enough that she wanted to abuse him 'just a little bit.'

It's disturbing. Perhaps she needs to be redeemed by a good man. ;)


The interesting thing is how much *we're* discussing gender!

Yes - it's probably mostly because I think Vala's actions look more "pathological", as opposed to morally dubious, because she's a woman.


He wouldn't have gotten mauled by Jack in Broca Divide. He could have dispatched the big bully at Hadante.

That was years ago. Daniel's been steadily improving. Not to mention working out...



I heard that just about everything Freud taught turned out to be wrong.

LOL, so I won't start analyzing the fruit on the table...


It's not about what people do under exigency.

This is what I meant by "normal" options.


You seem to be describing the syndrome, rather than showing that it does not exist.

I have zero training in psychology, so it's true I have a fuzzy idea about how you're defining it. I would be disappointed if social science was now going around labeling people with *learned* behavior sociopaths. That's just a cue for people to treat them in ways that will drive them to be even more sociopathic! Society has entirely too much fun making monsters so they can cage and punish them.


Vala's actions could be rational. She says to Daniel, "Can I have the ship? No. OK, Discussion over."

This was strange to me considering she seemed so talkative the rest of the time. I agree that her reasoning revolved around taking the ship at all costs, though.


Slapping Daiel was not rational. He was tied to the chair, he wasn't a threat to her.

It seems to me this is one of the things outlaws, not to mention certain types of military operatives, do. It was rational according to the terms they follow: just not good in terms of how peaceful people would like to see other people treated. The peaceful people can be somewhat hypocritical when they rely or expect the government to use outlaw tactics to protect them. I think the reasoning here (which I think is very wrong) is the same as when people expect criminals to get extra punishment via abuse in prison.


You say she might have been responding to her environment -- what environment? The environment on the Prometheus?

A person's life history forms their response to environmental stimuli.



then she's projecting that environment onto the Prometheus and responding to something that's not really there. That's irrational.

If that's true, everyone is irrational. Everyone brings baggage to their current information. There's no such thing as shutting off memory and experience: and if there was, I'd regard that as irrational behavior, since the person is incapable of learning.


I don't see what she expected to get out of that. Was she trying to get information? If so, then it was rational, if inneffectual.

I agree it was ineffectual. Perhaps she held back because she liked him? :)

One of the reasons I think she made a decision to hold back is the lingering, confused look she gave Daniel after he refused to hand over the codes (after the 'size matters' comment).



throw Daniel off balance. Daniel was subjected to the mind-numbing, disorienting effects of the emotional roller-coaster ride that is sometimes use to try to "break" people being interogated.

I agree she was trying to do this. She's probably done it before, too.


if he hits Kerri, she should recognize that he's not good mate material.

Is this from Gemini? I haven't seen it yet. I would differentiate between hitting "Kerri" during a personal argument and stuff that might occur during a combat situation. She might be able to forgive as well.
This makes me think of Teal'c hitting Jack too hard when they were sparring: Jack griped Teal'c "did it on purpose", but he didn't refer to it as abuse.


But that doesn't give a rapist the right to read "consent" into the victim's body language.

I agree, but Vala didn't rape Daniel. She just considered that he was responding to her. I'd say undressing her while she's unconscious with no discernable cause is more heinous.



Sure, but that interpretatiion of his dreams turned out to be completely wrong.

But Daniel also agreed he had issues when he was talking to Sam.



Vala did things to him against his will and without his consent. And as vulnerable and sad as it makes us feel to know that people can hurt us this way, for no reason, through no fault of our own, as scary as it is to know that we won't necessarily be able to stop it, this is the truth about what happened.

Yet Daniel continues to pursue a job where stuff like this happens all the time. Whether he's a victim or not, that doesn't seem to be the way he's processing it. He seems to think this is the stuff that happens when you work for the military and venture out into wars of a galactic scale.


recognize that unless Vala's behavior changes drastically, any future encounters with her are likely to be abusive as wellt

Daniel is also open minded: I think he will give her a chance to make a new friend.



Well, I hope the experience doesn't shatter his self-confidence.

IMHO, Daniel's a very strong person, and he's lived through much more shattering things.


handle on your fears, not lying to yourself about what actually happened. Daniel is a lot better off being honest about what happened, being wary of Vala, and not thinking of her behavior as a "game."

I agree Daniel will be honest about what happened, and he will be careful about her in the future. And he's not about to underestimate her intelligence. But I don't think this will preclude the growth of attraction.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 09:55 AM
I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack OŽNeill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists????

Dreamhunter - Margaret was using an exaggeration to make a point. There's no rape, and I would be hard pressed to call it molestation. I'd call it flirting. Margaret's point is that Daniel was tied in a chair at the time.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by Kalliope
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

The first post in this thread is very interesting and should be here

I agree. This is really excellent.

Just to clarify - this is not actually the first post of this thread. I agree it's something to discuss, though. Is there anyway it can be moved to where it's okay to spoil in dark text? It would be easier to discuss in detail.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 10:03 AM
I'd say most of his slowness to react had nothing to do with him being attracted, but because Vala kept changing the rules.

I agree this can be interpreted either way. :)

Later,
Graculus

Hathor999
December 27th, 2004, 10:29 AM
Are you sure you would be so shocked by this if she were a man? Come to think of it, how about Ba'all? He's a lot worse: he engaged in no-holds-barred torture. But I'd still be interested in seeing him humanized by a surprise soft spot. He doesn't have to "explain" anything: we just accept he's Ba'al. Vala is Vala. She resorts to violent and manipulative behavior that we accept, but don't necessarily like, in soldiers. Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel. It's not like we got a crotch shot. ;)

IŽm very sure that if had been a man (for an example Aris Boch treated Sam the Sam why as Vala Daniel it had lead to a outcry of shock in the fandom (and maybe outside of it). IMHO is the only reason why Valas behaviour is acceptet by many fans is BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN. But for me feels that completly wrong. I want a woman who is meant to be a "hero" of a TV-show not more a sexual molestor than a man!

And comparing Vala to BaŽal is more than strange. BaŽal was presented in very clear terms as the enemy. And I doubt that we will see him ever as a member of SG 1. And "Abyss" was a drama (but maybe was it for you a comedy, too) and "Prometheus Unbound" a slapstick comedy!
And sorry,for some people the sexualised torture of the prisoners in Irak through U.S. soldiers may be acceptable but IŽm not one of them! So please donŽt say "we accept" because for me is that an insult! And I doubt that the majority of man and woman who serve in the US military are proud of the ones who were reponsible for it!

MartoufMarty
December 27th, 2004, 10:31 AM
IŽm very sure that if had been a man (for an example Aris Boch treated Sam the Sam why as Vala Daniel it had lead to a outcry of shock in the fandom (and maybe outside of it). IMHO is the only reason why Valas behaviour is acceptet by many fans is BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN. But for me feels that completly wrong. I want a woman who is meant to be a "hero" of a TV-show not more a sexual molestor than a man!

And comparing Vala to BaŽal is more than strange. BaŽal was presented in very clear terms as the enemy. And I doubt that we will see him ever as a member of SG 1. And "Abyss" was a drama (but maybe was it for you a comedy, too) and "Prometheus Unbound" a slapstick comedy!
And sorry for some people the sexualised torture of the prisoners in Irak through U.S. soldiers as acceptable but IŽm not one of them! So please donŽt say "we accept" because for me is that an insult!
It's a TV show. It's not real. It's supposed to be fun.

Hathor999
December 27th, 2004, 10:42 AM
It's a TV show. It's not real. It's supposed to be fun.

IŽm sorry but for me is it no fun when a TV show propagates such things!

I doubt that the Damien Kindler had meant it that way as he had written "Prometheus Unbound" but making Vala a main character of the show is turning something what I had otherwise seen only as another bad Stargate comedy into a problem!

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 10:44 AM
comparing Vala to BaŽal is more than strange.

I admit I may be the only one interested in knowing more about Ba'al, and being willing to look for his "more human" dimensions. Ba'al did torture Jack, and he is the enemy. Yet, I confess, he interests me anyway. Vala interests me for many of the same reasons, but I haven't placed her as an Enemy, yet. The new Sci Fi Wire article calls her a "wild card" - that makes more sense to me.


So please donŽt say "we accept"

I shouldn't have said that. It's possible that very few people regard Ba'al as an interesting character. I apologize for assuming that everyone likes him as a villain, and that they like him for the complexity of his motives. This says a thing about my outlook on Iraq, though.


more a sexual molestor than a man!

I don't think it's possible to say someone is more or less of a sexual molestor. Either what you're doing is molestation or it's not. IMHO, Vala was engaging in flirtation. I also shiver to think that "sexual molestation" is now going to become an easy reactionary trump card that will replace actual discussion, much like some people use "SoapGate" to put down ship without actually thinking about it. It's symptomatic of a world where people just shout without ever listening.

Later,
Graculus

MartoufMarty
December 27th, 2004, 10:46 AM
IŽm sorry but for me is it no fun when a TV show propagates such things!

I doubt that the Damien Kindler had meant it that way as he had written "Prometheus Unbound" but making Vala a main character of the show is turning something what I had otherwise seen only as another bad Stargate comedy into a problem!
Does six episodes count as 'main character'?

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 10:49 AM
IŽm sorry but for me is it no fun when a TV show propagates such things!

Prometheus Unbound didn't propagate anything. The nature of drama is to combine different characters and different circumstances to see how the situation resolves. Some of the characters may be evil, some may be good, most are probably somewhere in between: drama shows us one possible outcome when all those things combine.

I agree that comedy isn't Stargate's strong suit, though.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 10:58 AM
BTW, is there a Daniel/Vala oriented web site/fic site out there yet? (No, I'm not volunteering).

Later,
Graculus

MartoufMarty
December 27th, 2004, 11:02 AM
BTW, is there a Daniel/Vala oriented web site/fic site out there yet? (No, I'm not volunteering).

Later,
Graculus
... The episode aired less than a week ago :P

I'm not volunteering either. I'm running four sites already. One of which I don't have completely remade, another I'm falling behind on putting up new vids, and the other that doesn't just sit there just started with the voting stage.

Hathor999
December 27th, 2004, 11:03 AM
I shouldn't have said that. It's possible that very few people regard Ba'al as an interesting character. I apologize for assuming that everyone likes him as a villain, and that they like him for the complexity of his motives. This says a thing about my outlook on Iraq, though.

Please stop this semantic games! As I said I donŽt accept this behaviour in soldiers I donŽt talked about BaŽal (a TV show bad-guy) but about soldiers in the real world! And I donŽt see why you call BaŽal a soldier I would call him a politician. He is a system lord! Not a Jaffa!
And yes I think as a villian he is interesting (at least more interesting as the majority of Stargate bad guys) but that has still nothing to do with the Daniel/Vala ship.




I don't think it's possible to say someone is more or less of a sexual molestor. Either what you're doing is molestation or it's not. IMHO, Vala was engaging in flirtation. I also shiver to think that "sexual molestation" is now going to become an easy reactionary trump card that will replace actual discussion, much like some people use "SoapGate" to put down ship without actually thinking about it. It's symptomatic of a world where people just shout without ever listening.

Later,
Graculus

I have listend. And I have given my opinion to that what I heard. Why do you cry "reactionary" only because I donŽt share your opinion?

Hathor999
December 27th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Does six episodes count as 'main character'?

Not if it stays by only this six episodes. But IŽm pretty sure that she will stay for the whole ninth season.

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 11:43 AM
And comparing Vala to BaŽal is more than strange. BaŽal was presented in very clear terms as the enemy. And I doubt that we will see him ever as a member of SG 1.

Just a note in passing: Ben Browder is going to be a member of SG-1.
I don't think Vala is going to join SG-1. I think she's going to be a troublemaker that SG-1 encounters from time to time. Maybe she will even help them out sometimes. But mostly, I think, she is going to cause them lots of trouble.

MartoufMarty
December 27th, 2004, 11:47 AM
Just a note in passing: Ben Browder is going to be a member of SG-1.
I don't think Vala is going to join SG-1. I think she's going to be a troublemaker that SG-1 encounters from time to time. Maybe she will even help them out sometimes. But mostly, I think, she is going to cause them lots of trouble.
I hope they don't make Vala a main character.

She's funny and quirky and cool and all, but just nothing that could be handled and shown every week.

Chlex
December 27th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Stopping by to give my 2 cents...

I loved watching Daniel and Vala together! Sure, it was mostly over-the-top and more about sexuality than getting deeper into whatever relationship is building... but it was cute. A once-off thing that they're not going to repeat too much in Stargate. I thought they had great chemistry together, not just because they're both attractive, but because they're both great actors. I'd like to see a little more digging under the surface and less of them jumping each other... but for the tone Prometheus Unbound was going for, I think it worked well.

I'm looking forward to more scenes with the both of them. Hopefully they'll keep the playfullness, but steer it in a new direction. Slapstick is fun for about fifteen minutes, but conversation can be more effective. Daniel's part linguist! Let's see him impress her with his real skills. That's just my opinion though ;)

Right now I'd like to see her as a reccuring character in season 9. Having her and Ben as regulars may turn things into Starscape for me... :p

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Usually the shipper web sites go up at the speed of light. I bet there's one up already somewhere...

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 12:32 PM
Usually the shipper web sites go up at the speed of light. I bet there's one up already somewhere...

Later,
Graculus
that's kinda wierd actuly.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:35 PM
Please stop this semantic games!

Please clarify what you mean by semantic games. If you point out a semantic issue like inadvisably using the word "we", I will sincerely apologize for it.


Why do you cry "reactionary" only because I donŽt share your opinion?

The disagreement does not cause me to "cry reactionary". I love to debate (see my exchange with Margaret). My objection was to the use of the label 'molester' as a substitute for argument. Using the label is not the same as having the opinion that molestation occurs: Margaret believes that molestation has occured, and she has been explaining why. I'm just asking you to disagree with me in a way that promotes discussion.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:37 PM
But mostly, I think, she is going to cause them lots of trouble.

IMHO, that could be a lot of fun, in action-adventure terms.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 12:40 PM
I hope they don't make Vala a main character.

She's funny and quirky and cool and all, but just nothing that could be handled and shown every week.

She won't be.

She's going to be a recurring character like Jacob and Bra'tac.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:43 PM
thought they had great chemistry together, not just because they're both attractive, but because they're both great actors.

I couldn't agree more!


I'd like to see a little more digging under the surface and less of them jumping each other... but for the tone Prometheus Unbound was going for, I think it worked well.

And I also agree with this...


Hopefully they'll keep the playfullness, but steer it in a new direction. Slapstick is fun for about fifteen minutes, but conversation can be more effective. Daniel's part linguist! Let's see him impress her with his real skills.

Again, ITA. And steering things in a new direction may warm people to her character. Some of her more objectionable behavior might be explained, and she might have the opportunity to do some laudable things.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:45 PM
that's kinda wierd actuly.

I agree - but isn't it true?

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 12:46 PM
I agree - but isn't it true?

Later,
Graculus
I wouldn't know... I don't think i've ever been to a shippers website

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 12:47 PM
IMHO, that could be a lot of fun, in action-adventure terms.


Yeah, I expect they'll be chasing her hither and yon, and blowing lots of stuff up along the way.

"SpacePirate" has a lot of potential for good action yarns.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:50 PM
For a while it looked like people were itching to make web sites, and looking for ships to promote - so sites came out before the actual characters appeared for the ships. Not just in the Stargate fandom. Rather shippy pics were out months before Prometheus Unbound. That's why I'd be surprised if there wasn't a Daniel/Vala celebratory site out there somewhere.

Later,
Graculus

priornavalperson
December 27th, 2004, 12:51 PM
Please stop this semantic games! As I said I donŽt accept this behaviour in soldiers I donŽt talked about BaŽal (a TV show bad-guy) but about soldiers in the real world! And I donŽt see why you call BaŽal a soldier I would call him a politician. He is a system lord! Not a Jaffa!
And yes I think as a villian he is interesting (at least more interesting as the majority of Stargate bad guys) but that has still nothing to do with the Daniel/Vala ship.

For heaven's sake, Vala is NOT a solider, she's a former Goa'uld host. What sort of situational morality do you think she would have learned in the past several centuries while being a host? And how many times do you think she has been through a sarcophagus.

Of course she is manipulative and self-centered as hell. Amongst Goa'uld, altruism does not pay very well. At the same time, she is not as over-the-top kill for killing's sake as she would have been had she still been infested.

She would undoubtedly make an excellent bride for Maybourne: think of all the fun they copuld have double and triple crossing each other.:D

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 12:52 PM
"SpacePirate" has a lot of potential for good action yarns.

And a lot of potential to get SG-1 offworld: many fans seem to want that.

Here's to hoping she doesn't run with scissors and end up with an eye patch, though. ;)

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 02:55 PM
My best Stargate bud just pointed out that Daniel doesn't raise an objection the flirtation like he does when Vala is slapping him around. Daniel communicates loudly that the slap hurts, the zap thing hurts, etc. The one time Daniel responds to the innuendo (when Vala offers to "kiss it better"), he declines - but he hesitates and sounds very unsure when he does it.

I'm not saying Daniel has nookie on his mind when he hesitates like that: but he could be considering playing her game. That willingness would mean Daniel is willing to play on attraction just as much as Vala is when there's a job that needs to get done.

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 27th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Here's to hoping she doesn't run with scissors and end up with an eye patch, though. ;)


ROFLMAO!

I'd say more, but I'm wearing my "Bad Ass Tribe" t-shirt (does not play well with others)

Seriously. Bought it in Phoenix.

Peace out

Courser

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 04:07 PM
Courser! Yay! Come back, come back!

(And where can I get the t-shirt and join the tribe?)

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 04:18 PM
Hey, Courser, great to see you!

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 04:24 PM
You scared her away with your formidable point of view, Margaret! :)

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 27th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Okay, I'm back...

Very, very interesting thread, this...

My personal POV is that Daniel was having more fun than he'd had in a loooong time. But that's just me :)

No, he didn't particularly enjoy getting the snot beat out of him, but on the other hand she was a very intelligent, provocative woman on a mission. And he's really had so much worse...

Peace out
Courser

courser
December 27th, 2004, 04:42 PM
(And where can I get the t-shirt and join the tribe?)


I got mine in Old Scottsdale after a particularly cranky weekend of judging. I think that's how you get inducted to the tribe. Lose your patience after listening to a bunch of people carping about field conditions when you've had something like 6 hours of sleep in the last 3 days and no coffee...

Sort of like Jack after he'd been asleep for a week in Fragile Balance...

Peace out
Courser

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 04:43 PM
You scared her away with your formidable point of view, Margaret! :)


My point of view that I'm glad to see her?

Courser's not scared of me!

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 04:45 PM
My personal POV is that Daniel was having more fun than he'd had in a loooong time. But that's just me :)

No, he didn't particularly enjoy getting the snot beat out of him, but on the other hand she was a very intelligent, provocative woman on a mission. And he's really had so much worse...



So what do you think he's going to do *next* time he sees Vala?

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Courser has seen my Daniel/Vala sig that I dare not post here without mod approval...

And admittedly Courser's too cool to be scared of Margaret!

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 27th, 2004, 04:54 PM
So what do you think he's going to do *next* time he sees Vala?

Depends on the circumstances...

If he's alone, he might be inclined to zat first and ask questions later...

And actually, I'm thinking more along the lines of what *she's* going to do the next time she sees him. I wouldn't put it past her to jump all over him and kiss him - especially if he shows up with SG-1.

But I don't see him hiding behind the nearest tree. I don't put this encounter in the same realm as what Hathor did to him. Like Graculus, I think he has a certain respect for her.

Peace out
Courser

courser
December 27th, 2004, 04:56 PM
My point of view that I'm glad to see her?

Courser's not scared of me!

No, I'm not really :)

Good to see you too, Margaret!

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 04:57 PM
ROTFL - He'd be horrified if Vala starts feeling him up in the Gateroom. Kind of hard to explain...

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 27th, 2004, 05:02 PM
ROTFL - He'd be horrified if Vala starts feeling him up in the Gateroom. Kind of hard to explain...


Oooh, horrified Daniel! Can't go wrong with that!

Actually, I'd love for her to make some overt comment in front of his teammates that Daniel's seen her naked :eek:

Can you imagine the looks on their faces?

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 05:04 PM
::snorts coffee::

ROTFLMAO!

On the plus side, Daniel fans will enjoy seeing him sweat more as a result. Love that sweaty and confused Daniel...

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 05:22 PM
Hey, the mods said ok to the new sig pic!

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 27th, 2004, 05:23 PM
Looks like it got approved!

Congrats...

--C

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Of course, I may have just confirmed the Victim theory...

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 05:28 PM
Looks like it got approved!

Congrats...

--C
hey who'd you ask... I want the other banner I had back.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 05:31 PM
I asked Skydiver. She said there might be a spoiler issue, which surprised me since it's pretty obviously a manip. You might be past the curve now for spoiler issues since it's already aired in the UK and the pics are everywhere.

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 05:35 PM
I asked Skydiver. She said there might be a spoiler issue, which surprised me since it's pretty obviously a manip. You might be past the curve now for spoiler issues since it's already aired in the UK and the pics are everywhere.

Later,
Graculus
hah it's an obvious fake lol... mine is a promo shot and I was told to take it out yesterday, but it was a promo shot? oh well... I'll wait or someone could tell me not to I don't care.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 05:41 PM
I think it's probably a close call to make. Maybe you could shrink it and add a comment so it doesn't look like a screen cap?

And maybe mine isn't a manip after all. Maybe I have special precognitive access to the events of Season 9, in which Vala gives Daniel a lot of trouble in all the best ways...

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 27th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Actually, I'd love for her to make some overt comment in front of his teammates that Daniel's seen her naked :eek:



Yeah, I thought it would be a bad day for Daniel if he had to explain that before a military board of inquiry.

But I think Vala would rather embarass him than get him fired.

Besides he might be useful to her . . .

I'll bet she tries to blackmail him.

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 05:51 PM
I'll bet she tries to blackmail him.

I agree this is extremely likely.

Just saw Jack whomping on Daniel in Broca Divide. Made Vala look very tame in comparison.

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 27th, 2004, 05:58 PM
But I think Vala would rather embarass him than get him fired..

Absolutely. Much more fun that way


Besides he might be useful to her . . ..

Yup, in oh, so many ways...


I'll bet she tries to blackmail him.

I also agree with this. Good call!

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 06:01 PM
Is my subliminal advertising working yet?

Later,
Graculus

keshou
December 27th, 2004, 06:54 PM
Is my subliminal advertising working yet?

Well if you're talking about the new "gotcha" manip in your sig - it's kind of freaking me out actually. Daniel looks like he's in pain.

The other one's nice. :)

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Darn - I was just going for surprise.

But I suspected Margaret was going to look at it askance. She's been suspiciously silent on the topic.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 08:33 PM
There, now Daniel is happy. :)

Later,
Graculus

SteelMagnolia867
December 27th, 2004, 08:36 PM
I think Browder should get Vala.


I saw some pic with both of them together (must be a photoshop or something) they just look right together.




:P

It is not photoshop my friend it is FARSCAPE. That's right scaper speaking. I have to agree!!!! I WANT BROWDER AND VALA!!!!! MWHAHAHAHAHAHA. Who's with us y'all?

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 08:40 PM
It is not photoshop my friend it is FARSCAPE. That's right scaper speaking. I have to agree!!!! I WANT BROWDER AND VALA!!!!! MWHAHAHAHAHAHA. Who's with us y'all? No. :p

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 08:40 PM
I was cheering for a triangle of unholy UST.

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 08:43 PM
I was cheering for a triangle of unholy UST.

Later,
Graculus
What exactly is "UST" ?

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 08:44 PM
Unresolved S*xual Tension. ;)

Though I could live with Resolved if done right. I thought it was handled well on Farscape.

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 27th, 2004, 08:47 PM
Unresolved S*xual Tension. ;)

Though I could live with Resolved if done right. I thought it was handled well on Farscape.

Later,
Graculus
ah... yes but on Farscape you had to want them to get together because, well It was four years of him not getting any.

can i say that here?

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 08:49 PM
ROTFLMAO!

Actually, I think the key was that Aeryn kept offering casual sex, so it wasn't a big thing.

Later,
Graculus

keshou
December 27th, 2004, 08:53 PM
There, now Daniel is happy. :)

Hee. You've been playing with Daniel, I see. :) Better. Still like the pic on the bottom the best.

But dunno about Daniel/Vala - I'm pretty picky and a little wary of how they're going to develop Vala. And sadly I'm afraid John/Aeryn has rather spoiled me when it comes to scifi ships. Hard to find one that tops that pairing.

Still it will be fun to see the sparkage when Vala returns. She's an interesting character. :D

graculus
December 27th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Made the change just for you, Kes. Didn't want to freak you out!

I agree John/Aeryn spoiled things a lot. Also, Buffy/Angel. For both of these the ship set up the tragic death of the guy (temporary death, but still wrenching). I think you need a ship to set that sort of thing up.

Later,
Graculus

Kalliope
December 28th, 2004, 06:34 AM
It is not photoshop my friend it is FARSCAPE. That's right scaper speaking. I have to agree!!!! I WANT BROWDER AND VALA!!!!! MWHAHAHAHAHAHA. Who's with us y'all?

I'm a Scaper too and a HUUUUGE Aeryn/John shipper, but I don't want Vala and Ben's character together here. I'd love them to be enemies.

Kalliope
December 28th, 2004, 06:51 AM
Hee. You've been playing with Daniel, I see. :) Better. Still like the pic on the bottom the best.

But dunno about Daniel/Vala - I'm pretty picky and a little wary of how they're going to develop Vala. And sadly I'm afraid John/Aeryn has rather spoiled me when it comes to scifi ships. Hard to find one that tops that pairing.

Hard? I'd say it's rather impossible. But maybe Vala/Daniel can change it ;)


Still it will be fun to see the sparkage when Vala returns. She's an interesting character. :D

And Claudia Black is brilliant actress. With good writing she can do miracles with her character :)

Kalliope
December 28th, 2004, 06:57 AM
Just a note in passing: Ben Browder is going to be a member of SG-1.
I don't think Vala is going to join SG-1. I think she's going to be a troublemaker that SG-1 encounters from time to time. Maybe she will even help them out sometimes. But mostly, I think, she is going to cause them lots of trouble.

It also depends on Claudia's availability. If she's offered another interesting independent big screen project in the meantime (like "Naked in London" or "One", which is probably going to be filmed in Canada in the first part of 2005 :) ), I guess she'll be a guest rather on SG-1, not one of the main characters.

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 08:18 AM
There, now Daniel is happy. :)

He *does* look happy.

But I suspect the original picture was closer to the truth.

This is how Vala makes Daniel feel:

http://www.stargatedanielfriendly.net/html/images/prometheusunbound/image327.jpg

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 09:02 AM
ROTFL! I would have chosen the shot where he's rolling his eyes instead.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 09:30 AM
A friend of mine just pointed out something that could be hilarious. On several occasions, Teal'c has referred to combat or violence as a normal part of Jaffa courting ritual. He's mentioned settling fights with weapons and some honeymoon ritual involving a knife (?). Teal'c also started his fling with Ishta with staff combat.

Now, imagine if Teal'c were present when Vala chose to show up again and give Daniel trouble. Teal'c could well have a courtship interpretation of the "friction" (Robert Cooper's term, not mine). If Daniel starts stuttering, Teal'c's eyebrow would shoot up a mile high!

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 11:11 AM
Vala is going to fall down laughing when she hears that!

Yeah, I can see Teal'c taking that approach.

Daniel better start taking lessons! Vala doesn't need a lot of encouragement from the Jaffa to whup him again.

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 11:40 AM
ROTFL - don't tell me you won't be cheering Daniel on when he does that graceful Aikido flip!

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 12:04 PM
I'd sure like to have some Thunk pics of Daniel/Vala on this thread. Hint, hint, hint.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 12:19 PM
ROTFL - don't tell me you won't be cheering Daniel on when he does that graceful Aikido flip!

Sure, I will!

I might even cheer for Vala, if *she* did the graceful Aikido flip!

A man of Daniel's weight and size should not have lost to a woman like Vala. If she had some special advantage like goa'uld-strength, or martial arts training that allows a smaller opponent to overcome a larger one, I could credit the win. But as a bar-room brawl -- no.

Anyway, next time Daniel takes her clothes off, it better be with her consent. Good Lord!

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 01:11 PM
Vala could have had some technology boost. Or if she is related to Aris Boch's race, she could be on drugs. That would explain a lot, lol.

I can't get the danielfriendly site to re-pic you! Grrr...

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 01:12 PM
Anyway, next time Daniel takes her clothes off, it better be with her consent. Good Lord!

Turn about is fair play. ;)

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 01:24 PM
No it isn't.

The military has been putting people on trial for that sort of thing for the last six months, haven't you heard? Dishonorable discharges, jail time, the works. And now these people are making a joke out of the sexual humiliation of prisoners? Are they out of their minds?

Daniel has dishonored himself and disgraced Hammond's command. He better hope that no one gets a look at those security tapes, or he's going to be reading about himself in the newspapers. Can you imagine how mortified he'd be?

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 02:07 PM
The military has been putting people on trial for that sort of thing for the last six months

Vala isn't in the military. And come to think of it, neither is Daniel: though he would probably still have to answer for this under the military's civilian HR guidelines. What's he doing messing up Earth's rep for high humanitarian standards... :)


Daniel has dishonored himself and disgraced Hammond's command. He better hope that no one gets a look at those security tapes, or he's going to be reading about himself in the newspapers. Can you imagine how mortified he'd be?

Despite the smiley above, ITA on this - and when I say "turn about is fair play", it's to emphasize he shouldn't have done this. The only possible excuse is that Vala was gaining some sort of super-strength from her cat-suit, and the writers did a poor job of making that clear if that were the case.

Now that I think about it, I'm surprised TPTB didn't catch any guff from their military advisors. Surely the military is being extra, extra careful about public relations right now.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 02:08 PM
But, in a universe where we don't have to worry about the implications for the reputation of the military, my sig pic shows how Daniel feels about the Turn About scenario. ;)

Later,
Graculus

Dani347
December 28th, 2004, 02:38 PM
Now that I think about it, I'm suprised TPTB didn't catch any guff from their military advisors. Surely the military is being extra, extra careful about public relations right now.



Maybe the advisors only concern themselves with military characters.

courser
December 28th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Daniel has dishonored himself and disgraced Hammond's command. He better hope that no one gets a look at those security tapes, or he's going to be reading about himself in the newspapers. Can you imagine how mortified he'd be?

Okay, I'm going to hope this doesn't come across snarky...

Actually, as a matter of point, it's actually fairly standard to either remove a prisoner's clothing or have them remove them. That isn't what those people are on trial for. They're on trial for degrading and humiliating those prisoners and especially for taking photographs.

So if Daniel is smart, he removed Vala's clothing and redressed her in full view of a security camera to prove that nothing inappropriate went on while she was unconscious.

Technically he didn't even have to redress her - he could have undressed her in the cell to make sure she didn't have anything hidden in that costume (rendering the whole argument as to whether the suit deflected staff blasts or not moot), then simply left the jumpsuit for her to put on when she came to. Oh yeah, he would have been justified in doing a body cavity search too, but we're going to sidestep that, since it's really too squicky to contemplate.

Granted, these things are generally done by members of the same gender as the prisoner, but considering that the abuses that are now coming to light were perpetrated by both sexes and that Daniel was alone on the ship (which doesn't relieve him of the responsibility of making sure she's been thoroughly searched and disarmed) I think we can sort of leave the gender issues aside in this case.

Did he look? Well, duh. But I'm fairly confident that he didn't do anything degrading or humiliating to her or take pictures to show his buddies back at the SGC. So I think he's pretty safe.

Peace out

Courser

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 03:17 PM
But of course Daniel would completely abandon all procedure in regard to treatment of hostiles, because he's such a gentleman. ;)

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Actually, as a matter of point, it's actually fairly standard to either remove a prisoner's clothing or have them remove them.

OK, this is a good point.

BUT:

Vala was wearing a close-fitting leotard. It would be hard to conceal anything in it -- it was designed to be as revealing as possible!

If Daniel's purpose was to search her for weapons, why would he say, "I kept my eyes closed the whole time"? Wouldn't he say something like, "Just checking to see if you have anything up your sleeve"?

Why would he believe that the suit deflects energy weapons when he just proved it didn't by zatting her?

For awhile, I thought maybe the suit was part of the armor. I know he took the supersoldier armor to wear when he left the ship. But he wasn't wearing the suit, only the plastic pieces of armour. Now, granted, Daniel is not going to fit into anything made for Vala, but the suit couldn't have been of any use to him. So I am without any plausible explanation for why he removed it. The fact that he was taunting her suggests that he undressed her as 'payback' for the sexual come-ons. The gestures on the monitor show how angry and irritated he is with her.

I would like for there to be a rational reason why Daniel would undress her, but the script isn't very encouraging at this point.

courser
December 28th, 2004, 03:36 PM
But of course Daniel would completely abandon all procedure in regard to treatment of hostiles, because he's such a gentleman. ;)


Riiiiight... because it's worked so well for him in the past (to abandon procedure) :D

And really, you've got to give him points for redressing her! I mean it's like trying to shove cooked noodles up a straw!

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 03:38 PM
I thought Daniel was being sarcastic when he said he kept his eyes closed. I didn't believe it for a second. But I'm sticking with the idea that the suit might have been boosting her strength in some way.

Daniel definitely has a petty side, though. :)

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 28th, 2004, 03:48 PM
OK, this is a good point.

BUT:

Vala was wearing a close-fitting leotard. It would be hard to conceal anything in it -- it was designed to be as revealing as possible!

True, but she still could have been concealing something, like a thin blade. In fact, considering her actions, I'd consider it rather likely. Not so much for attack purposes, but to help her get out of bindings. It was close fitting, but that's not to say that she couldn't have been hiding stuff.


If Daniel's purpose was to search her for weapons, why would he say, "I kept my eyes closed the whole time"? Wouldn't he say something like, "Just checking to see if you have anything up your sleeve"?

Actually, I think he was being snide.


So I am without any plausible explanation for why he removed it. The fact that he was taunting her suggests that he undressed her as 'payback' for the sexual come-ons. The gestures on the monitor show how angry and irritated he is with her.

I would like for there to be a rational reason why Daniel would undress her, but the script isn't very encouraging at this point.

I still think the SOP explanation suffices. While it may not completely absorb, deflect, whatever zat blasts, it could very well have other properties. I really don't think he did it merely to get back at her - it would have been far more compromising, not to mention entertaining, to force her to take it off at zat-point. It's really not much fun undressing someone who's unconscious. Having her wear unfamiliar clothing is again an intelligence technique. It's a psychological tactic.

And I thought he looked more frustrated with her than angry. Frustrated that she wasn't the least bit phased at being locked up and still unwilling to give him the answers he needed. But I'll certainly buy into 'irritated' :)

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 03:52 PM
I wanted to post Daniel doing his "watcha talkin' about, Willis!" face, but I still can't get into danielfriendly. Is there another good repository of Prometheus Unbound screenshots out there?

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 03:58 PM
But of course Daniel would completely abandon all procedure in regard to treatment of hostiles, because he's such a gentleman. ;)

No, I'm not asking for Daniel to be dumb. But I'm not above inquiring into his motives.

I'm CERTAINLY not asking him to trust Vala! You must know this Grac, I've spent the better part of the thread telling you what a thoroughly untrustworthy, lying, conniving, vamp she is. :eek: No good for Daniel. No good a-tall! :D

What I see here is a script where Daniel responds with blow for blow: Vala hits him, he hits her; she takes advantage of him in a sexual way, he does the same to her. She lies to him repeatedly; he zats her because he's tired of listening to her lies.

Now, what I like about Daniel is that he throws himself into things; he's fully engaged. He'll jump off the deep end with both feet, he doesn't just dabble his toes in the water. And he's fully engaged here -- he's giving as good as he gets!

But I don't mind being a bit of a deconstructionist and saying, "What happens if I pull this little thread here, this little thread that Mr. Kindler left hanging down? Oops -- it unravels! Well, willya lookit that! Dang! Whoda thought?"

In the real world, if Daniel was caught undressing a female prisoner in his custody, it wouldn't be a question of whether he was a gentleman or not, it'd be a question of whether he was a felon or not.

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Try this:

http://stargate-sg1.hu/photos/

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Testing:

http://www.stargatedanielfriendly.net/html/imagegalleries.php

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Thanks for the pics site!

The Ben Browder thread is saying that his character should hate Vala in order to differentiate his character from Crichton off the bat. That would give Daniel an opportunity to defend her...

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 28th, 2004, 04:10 PM
In the real world, if Daniel was caught undressing a female prisoner in his custody, it wouldn't be a question of whether he was a gentleman or not, it'd be a question of whether he was a felon or not.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point, Margaret.

You'll never convince me that he isn't doing exactly as he's been trained, more or less. He's been on the front lines of the SGC since it's inception and a lot has been learned.

If he were part of a civilian police force? You have a perfectly valid point. But as part of a military unit (whether or not he's military himself)? Um, no. I know, it's not pretty, but the military conventions are quite different from the civilian ones. I'm betting he toed the line pretty darn close.

That said, I'll wholeheartedly agree that he took just a bit of pleasure in 'getting her back'. Not by ogling her naked, unconscious body (because frankly I don't think Vala particularly cares about that), but simply by getting 'one up' on her. I think she was completely speaking the truth when she said that she'd meant to distract him while she was undressing and 'kick him in the head'. And she wasn't telling him anything he didn't already know... which is why he did it while she was unconscious. Robbed her of all her fun, he did.

Peace out
Courser

courser
December 28th, 2004, 04:17 PM
The Ben Browder thread is saying that his character should hate Vala in order to differentiate his character from Crichton off the bat. That would give Daniel an opportunity to defend her...

Oh, I don't want the BB character to hate her to the point Daniel has to defend her... But I'll certainly agree that I'd like to see a different sort of dynamic between them.

I'm going for him thinking that she's such a wack-a-doodle that he can't see why Daniel wastes his time. At the same time, I'd like to see Vala trying to pit the men against each other to get her way ;)

And I was the 'friend' that Graculus mentioned in her post this morning about Teal'c. Simply put, can you imagine anyone *less* likely to give Daniel sympathy over Vala kicking his carcass all over the room?

I'm all for Teal'c offering Jaffa advice on courtship! :D

Edited to change 'thread' to 'post this morning'. It was in this thread - not a different one.

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:22 PM
I liked your idea about Daniel feeling ambiguous about Vala but not wanting Ben Browder's character to have her: that alone could spark low key rivalry and a world 'o pettiness.

Daniel's response when Vala snuggles up next to Ben Browder's character:http://stargate-sg1.hu/photos/index.php?spgmGal=Season_8/812_Prometheus_Unbound_-_by_Brittney&spgmPic=111&spgmFilters=#pic

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Daniel's response when Teal'c observes he has been courting Vala and tells him the next step of the courtship ritual requires a weapon...

http://stargate-sg1.hu/photos/index.php?spgmGal=Season_8/812_Prometheus_Unbound_-_by_Brittney&spgmPic=116&spgmFilters=#pic

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Why isn't the IMG tag working for me? :(

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 28th, 2004, 04:32 PM
I liked your idea about Daniel feeling ambiguous about Vala but not wanting Ben Browder's character to have her: that alone could spark low key rivalry and a world 'o pettiness.

Daniel's response when Vala snuggles up next to Ben Browder's character:http://stargate-sg1.hu/photos/index.php?spgmGal=Season_8/812_Prometheus_Unbound_-_by_Brittney&spgmPic=111&spgmFilters=#pic

Oh, I think that would be absolutely the best!

Daniel's isn't sure if he wants her or not, but he sure as heck doesn't want anyone else to have her! And then he's going to feel guilty for being so petty. But of course Vala plays on all of this hardly giving him time to think things through...

Meanwhile, Teal'c is absolutely *no* help whatsoever as he keeps telling Daniel all about battle being a prelude to intimacy. Lovely!

Peace out
Courser

courser
December 28th, 2004, 04:34 PM
Why isn't the IMG tag working for me? :(


Dunno, but the IMG part was in there... I followed the link, though :)

Yeah, like that...

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:36 PM
I so love this scenario! I agree Daniel would recognize petty feelings and guilt over them. And Teal'c might try some Freudian dream analysis as well...

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 28th, 2004, 04:38 PM
Daniel's response when Teal'c observes he has been courting Vala and tells him the next step of the courtship ritual requires a weapon...

http://http://stargate-sg1.hu/photos/index.php?spgmGal=Season_8/812_Prometheus_Unbound_-_by_Brittney&spgmPic=116&spgmFilters=#pic

ROFL!

--C

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Now I'm seeing the scenario where everything Daniel says becomes an issue of Freudian analysis for Teal'c. Can't you hear him saying, "That is because you fear I might castrate you, Daniel."

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 04:49 PM
I still can't get the danielfriendly gallery. If you're able to, then I've done something since yesterday to block that site.

Later,
Graculus

Catysg1
December 28th, 2004, 04:56 PM
I'd rather see Daniel with Sarah ( osiris) ..I thought they already had something going on to be honest ;)


And Vala with BB character ..I saw Farscape and BB and CB together and they are absolutely fab ...the chemistry is out of this world ...and although They'll be playing different charaters ..I would love to see them interact together .

Daniel fits best with Sarah ;) Plus we know them together already and it would be a real shame to let drop their relationship just like that . :rolleyes: .The end of Chimera with Daniel and Sarah was lovely ;) ...full of tenderness ...and I 'd love to see Sarah again for continuity 's sake ..They are always great in their scenes together and it's never over the top...plus I think Daniel can handle Sarah better than Vala ....Vala seems a bit much for Daniel ..I reckon he may get fed up about her hyperactivity after a short while .

Caty ;)

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 05:05 PM
I can get in.

Can you get in through the front door?

http://stargatedanielfriendly.net

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Nope, can't get into that site. :: sigh:: I could yesterday. I don't think I did anything new securitywise, so I hope it's not a virus.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 28th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Vala seems a bit much for Daniel ..I reckon he may get fed up about her hyperactivity after a short while .

LOL!

That is too charitable . . . !

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 05:11 PM
I have never been able to see Daniel with Sarah. Nothing against the actor - I think she makes a great Osiris. It's just that she always seemed a bit too formal and cold. Their interactions never screamed chemistry to me. I always thought Daniel needed someone to stir him up, someone spicy. I also just think he looks better with dark-haired women.

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 28th, 2004, 05:50 PM
I'd rather see Daniel with Sarah ( osiris) ..I thought they already had something going on to be honest ;)

Sorry, zero interest in seeing Daniel with Sara here too. She's far, far too bland.

And seriously high maintenance! I mean really, who breaks up with their boyfriend for forgetting the *three month* anniversary??? And we're not talking kids here - they were both post-docs at the time...

I'm not saying that Daniel needs Vala as a long-term partner, but just someone of interest to get his blood pumping :)

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 06:15 PM
I've been trying to make a nice thunk pic for this thread, but I'm failing miserably. I could sure use some help from someone with more artistic talent...

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Testing my ability to abet thunking...

http://www.wolfdigital.net/~dissertation/images/coco.jpg

valaCB
December 28th, 2004, 10:59 PM
He *does* look happy.

But I suspect the original picture was closer to the truth.

This is how Vala makes Daniel feel:

http://www.stargatedanielfriendly.net/html/images/prometheusunbound/image327.jpg
lol

BTW - LOVE reading your posts graculus.

valaCB
December 28th, 2004, 11:04 PM
Testing my ability to abet thunking...

http://www.wolfdigital.net/~dissertation/images/coco.jpg
cool. i dont like Daniel's position, its not natural...

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 11:05 PM
Well, I hope if I ramble on enough, the idea will catch on. :)

I'm really interested in that little gem Courser left us with: what would Teal'c's observations be when he sees Vala and Daniel together for the first time.

I also love the idea that Daniel might get territorial in reaction to Vala flirting with BB's character. I'm leaving Teal'c out of this equation: if she starts flirting with T, he's such a big stud he wouldn't hesitate to move right in, lol!

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 28th, 2004, 11:09 PM
dont like Daniel's position, its not natural...

I agree. This was the third Daniel pic I tried after hours of looking. Part of the problem was that the lighting for Prometheus Unbound was unusually dark, and on top of that the posted pics were fairly low res. The reason the pics are tinted is that I couldn't find anything where the lighting matched. It's bumming me out, because that's a good shippy pic of Vala.

I encourage people who are better at manips to donate to this thread...

Later,
Graculus

valaCB
December 29th, 2004, 12:47 AM
Well, I hope if I ramble on enough, the idea will catch on.
yeah... i got it... ;)


i have seen only 7 episode (season 1) i dont know enough about Teal'c. just that i like him :D

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 12:56 AM
First three seasons are the best!

Later,
Graculus

valaCB
December 29th, 2004, 01:01 AM
I encourage people who are better at manips to donate to this thread...



challenging :D
maybe i'll do it....i need links for Daniel's pics. (i have lots of Claudia)

this is the 200 post for the Daniel/Vala thread!!!!!!!!! :) :cool: :D (i need more icons)

valaCB
December 29th, 2004, 01:04 AM
First three seasons are the best!

Later,
Graculus
and Daniel look so good with his long hair :)

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 01:05 AM
You could go to the thunk thread for Daniel pics.

I'm also hoping to stir up some fic writers. A really good ship is kept afloat by the fic.:)

Later,
Graculus

valaCB
December 29th, 2004, 01:26 AM
You could go to the thunk thread for Daniel pics.

I'm also hoping to stir up some fic writers. A really good ship is kept afloat by the fic.:)

Later,
Graculus
not my department. Can some1 wite with lots of nc-17 stuf :o :p

Vala
December 29th, 2004, 01:33 AM
challenging :D


this is the 200 post for the Daniel/Vala thread!!!!!!!!! :) :cool: :D (i need more icons)
haha ditto ;)

Margaret
December 29th, 2004, 01:37 AM
Graculus, are you *still* on line?

Good heavens, woman!

valaCB
December 29th, 2004, 02:05 AM
you have to see this pic.lollolololol

Crichton has a hole in his shirt and Aeryn next to him...lol!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/tayson/205EFGshegotlegsAeryn.jpg

Kalliope
December 29th, 2004, 02:12 AM
Actually it isn't a hole. It's the com they're using on Moya to talk to each other from a distance.

valaCB
December 29th, 2004, 02:23 AM
Actually it isn't a hole. It's the com they're using on Moya to talk to each other from a distance.
hooo....right... :S :rolleyes:

Margaret
December 29th, 2004, 05:08 AM
OK, just to tie up some loose ends . . .

I've been thinking about this alot, in my semi-somnolent state. (This is the most disturbing episode since I first saw Menace.) I think the idea about Daniel searching Vala for weapons is may be a good argument base on SOP, but it isn't supported by the script.

Daniel says, "It was your idea," which refers to Vala's words, "This suit still absorbs zat blasts." That suggests he might have thought it had some special characteristics, or that he didn't know and wasn't taking any chances.

Vala's comment that she wanted to distract him so she could kick him in the head may be the key to understanding the last scene where Vala says, "What are you going to do with me?" and then starts in with, "Look, Daniel, whatever happens, I just want you to know . . . "

Daniel probably thinks, "This is where she distracts me and kicks me in the head. Well, we're not doing *that* again!" And he zats her before she can say another word!

I think that this interpretation fits with what we know of the story. It does a lot less violence to Daniel's character and still leaves room for humor.

Anyway, many happy wishes to Vala and Daniel; may they whump each other happily ever after!

(Just not in my universe. :D)

blingaway
December 29th, 2004, 07:05 AM
I also love the idea that Daniel might get territorial in reaction to Vala flirting with BB's character. I'm leaving Teal'c out of this equation: if she starts flirting with T, he's such a big stud he wouldn't hesitate to move right in, lol!


And then Ishta comes in, sees T making moves, and the fur really starts to fly! :D Anybody wanna make book on Vala VS Ishta? :D

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 10:06 AM
Graculus, are you *still* on line?

Good heavens, woman!

I left my computer on all night, lol. I did go to bed pretty late, though.


"It was your idea," which refers to Vala's words, "This suit still absorbs zat blasts." That suggests he might have thought it had some special characteristics, or that he didn't know and wasn't taking any chances.


I also thought Daniel might have been resorting to inappropriate sense of humor in his exhaustion and also probably frustration that he couldn't turn the ship around.


Vala's comment that she wanted to distract him so she could kick him in the head

This could be just as much as a defense mechanism as Daniel's sense of humor. She doesn't want Daniel to think he's important to her when she's in such a vulnerable position.


Daniel probably thinks, "This is where she distracts me and kicks me in the head. Well, we're not doing *that* again!" And he zats her before she can say another word!

I agree that Daniel is probably thinking that. But being too worn out to think rationally, he might have just really wanted her to be quiet. However, like you, I'd prefer to think he had a good reason before doing something that could potentially kill her. I can go with the Headkick Fear defense.


Anyway, many happy wishes to Vala and Daniel; may they whump each other happily ever after!

(Just not in my universe. :D )


ROTFLMAO! I have to admit to hoping Daniel and Vala can work out a form of communication that doesn't involve so much whumping. At least Daniel is a linguist! I have faith...

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 10:12 AM
And then Ishta comes in, sees T making moves, and the fur really starts to fly! Anybody wanna make book on Vala VS Ishta?

ROTFLMAO! I don't want Daniel to see me making the bet, though, because my money is on Ishta rolling right over her. Vista knows how to fight, but I think the cat-suit was giving her some extra strength.

Who else wants to see Vala's Pirate Lair?

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Something just occured to me.

Spoiler: Isn't Daniel supposed to be at death's door in Moebius? This is why he has to think seriously about the opportunity to Ascend. If this is the case, the first five eps of next Season may take place offworld. SG-1 will have to come to Daniel, to rescue him and help him. Perhaps Vala gets to him first? He might start looking at Vala in a new light if she saves his life. Vala might also kick some ass on Daniel's behalf, which might make him feel a tad better about her fighting skills.

This scenario has all sorts of fun shippy possibilities!

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 29th, 2004, 12:38 PM
Well, I came home from work with a bug, so I want to answer you before I curl up on the couch :)



I think the idea about Daniel searching Vala for weapons is may be a good argument base on SOP, but it isn't supported by the script.

Daniel says, "It was your idea," which refers to Vala's words, "This suit still absorbs zat blasts." That suggests he might have thought it had some special characteristics, or that he didn't know and wasn't taking any chances.

I'll certainly agree that his intentions/reasons weren't made clear enough for everyone. It *was* played for laughs, which did nothing for those who found the idea disturbing. Perhaps a minor error in judgement on the part of the writers.


Daniel probably thinks, "This is where she distracts me and kicks me in the head. Well, we're not doing *that* again!" And he zats her before she can say another word!

Agreed. And I think from the variety of expressions that played on his face afterwards, he was somewhat conflicted at having done it. I would venture to say that it didn't make him happy to do it. He sure didn't look happy or pleased with himself to me, anyway. He looked somewhat regretful after he passed his 'annoyed' look. And I think the annoyance was with himself as much as her.


I think that this interpretation fits with what we know of the story. It does a lot less violence to Daniel's character and still leaves room for humor.

Agreed. I think we need to keep in mind that they weren't just smacking each other around for the heck of it, but actually fighting for something of massive value to each of them. Daniel is incredibly loyal and stubborn and while it was played for laughs, he really had every intention of winning the ship back - no matter what it took. But, at the same time, he wasn't entirely unsympathetic with Vala's plight, if there was any truth to her story. I think he really wanted to find a solution that would benefit both of them, but every time he showed a little compassion, she'd bonk him again.

I do have to say that's a very interesting thing to play with - to use Daniel's compassion against him. This whole story could have been played out as a drama, but I really think it would have been far, far more disturbing and potentially tragic. Personally, I think Daniel's had enough tragedy in his life.


Anyway, many happy wishes to Vala and Daniel; may they whump each other happily ever after!

(Just not in my universe. :D)

While I'm wholeheartedly in favor of keeping the 'friction' between them, I'd much rather it stay largely on the verbal side myself. You wouldn't be able to sell me on another big fight scene without something of enormous value at stake either. And that's been done. I'd like to see things taken to another level. Matching wits rather than fists, let's say.

Really, really excellent response, Margaret! I may be lured back to the forums yet!

Peace out
Courser

courser
December 29th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Here I am, being a total nerd, but I realized something....

When I said she'd 'bonk' him again, I meant the hitting kind of bonk, not the, uh... other kind.

Oye... time for a nap!

--C

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 12:48 PM
I think from the variety of expressions that played on his face afterwards, he was somewhat conflicted at having done it. I would venture to say that it didn't make him happy to do it. He sure didn't look happy or pleased with himself to me, anyway. He looked somewhat regretful after he passed his 'annoyed' look. And I think the annoyance was with himself as much as her.

I love that interpretation: and many of your similar ones along those same lines. I agree that as hard as Daniel tries to be rational, peaceful, etc., he's human. He does things on impulse. And then he is cursed by his academic background to analyze and reflect and guilt...


actually fighting for something of massive value to each of them.

Even if the Refugee story turns out to be untrue, I don't think we can rule out that Vala has a rational reason for wanting the ship (or rather the naquada she intended to trade it for). Maybe it was even for a weapon to fight the goa'uld?


every time he showed a little compassion, she'd bonk him again.

I love the psychological and moral problem this creates for Daniel.


And that's been done. I'd like to see things taken to another level. Matching wits rather than fists, let's say.

I'd love to find out that Vala can match Daniel IQ point for IQ point, too.

Later,
Graculus

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 12:49 PM
When I said she'd 'bonk' him again, I meant the hitting kind of bonk, not the, uh... other kind.


ROTFLMAO!!!

Later,
Graculus

Whistler
December 29th, 2004, 01:46 PM
What about that girl from Icon, apparently she was supposed to be Daniels new romantic interest, aren't TPTB confusing themselves with all this? Nothing against Daniel/Vala though they have a good Maybourne style chemestry, intreguing.

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 01:49 PM
What about that girl from Icon, apparently she was supposed to be Daniels new romantic interest, aren't TPTB confusing themselves with all this?

The woman from Icon was married. It's unclear whether Daniel returned her feelings, but they did have a long time to get to know each other well. For the record, I liked her better than past romantic possibilities, such as Kira. Because she chose to work on her marriage, though, I've never considered her as a serious ship for Daniel.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 29th, 2004, 02:07 PM
Who else wants to see Vala's Pirate Lair?

Hey, me!

(I was gonna make Lexa the Ma Barker of an interstellar Mafia gang, but I could go for Vala and the 40 Thieves.)

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 02:12 PM
I'm currently looking for web space for a Vala Pirate Lair. I'm willing to help set it up, but I don't have the time to do long term maintenance or archiving. If someone is interested in this project, PM me.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 29th, 2004, 02:21 PM
I'm in favor of Vala doing Daniel a serious good turn, maybe even saving his life. That'll keep Daniel guessing!

Of course, it will be done in such a casual way and under such ambiguous circumstances that it will be impossible to tell if she did it to help him or because it benefitted herself. (Maybe she just needed the money!)


Maybe it will make Daniel wonder what makes this woman tick.

(*I'd* sure like to know what makes her tick!)

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Of course, it will be done in such a casual way and under such ambiguous circumstances that it will be impossible to tell if she did it to help him or because it benefitted herself. (Maybe she just needed the money!)


I think it would be fun if we couldn't quite be sure of her motives. And for me, that would be the difference between intriguing UST and gooey lovey doveys.
;)

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 29th, 2004, 02:54 PM
I'm in favor of Vala doing Daniel a serious good turn, maybe even saving his life. That'll keep Daniel guessing!

Of course, it will be done in such a casual way and under such ambiguous circumstances that it will be impossible to tell if she did it to help him or because it benefitted herself. (Maybe she just needed the money!)

I think this is a very cool idea and I hope we see it incorporated in one form or another. I too would like to see Vala continue to be unpredictable. Far more interesting that way.

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 03:02 PM
Hey, maybe Vala's people really are pirates, scooped up from the high seas and transplanted by the Goa'uld?

Later, Graculus

Catysg1
December 29th, 2004, 03:03 PM
The woman from Icon was married. It's unclear whether Daniel returned her feelings, but they did have a long time to get to know each other well. For the record, I liked her better than past romantic possibilities, such as Kira. Because she chose to work on her marriage, though, I've never considered her as a serious ship for Daniel.

Later,
Graculus


I think TPTB don't know what they are really doing with the ship on Stargate at the moment ...They try to ship anybody with anybody ( Daniel /Icon woman-Daniel /sarah ..now Daniel /Vala .....tealc/ Ishta ..ok but tealc/Krista :rolleyes: Sam/Jack ...Sam /Pete.....Jack/Sam and Jack /kerry and try to get some kind of responses from the fans because they probably don't have a clue how to handle that matter.
:S :rolleyes:

I find it a little bit too much for a sci-fi show ..Should n't they just get on with the show and resolve something with the Characters we all know first instead of bringing more invading ship into the show ???!!! :rolleyes:

Stargate SG1 season 1 to 6 used to be about great adventure with the team and the ship was minimal ..Now the ship is taking over because they shipped too many people in the last year and an half also :rolleyes:

Not necessary ...quite boring really :rolleyes:


Caty ;)

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 03:06 PM
The shipping has mainly occured in the fandom, and doesn't feature all that often in the show unless it fits into the story. As for experimenting with different people, TPTB can't really tell who has chemistry until they try them out. It's probably a mistake to try out a character with the sole intention of planning a ship. However, if there is a discernable ship, TPTB then has the option of exploiting it in their storylines.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 29th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Wonderful analysis! Thanks for the insight.




I do have to say that's a very interesting thing to play with - to use Daniel's compassion against him. This whole story could have been played out as a drama, but I really think it would have been far, far more disturbing and potentially tragic. Personally, I think Daniel's had enough tragedy in his life.

Yeah, I can't disagree about that!

I also agree that this is a story about the downside of being a peaceful and compassionate person when you are facing a ruthless enemy. I don't feel as irked by this story as I did in, say Season 7, where Daniel seemed unable to navigate the simplest diplomatic situation. At least in this story, Daniel is NOT hopelessly naive. And, all in all, he manages to keep a pretty good grip on his ethics and his humanity.




While I'm wholeheartedly in favor of keeping the 'friction' between them, I'd much rather it stay largely on the verbal side myself. You wouldn't be able to sell me on another big fight scene without something of enormous value at stake either. And that's been done. I'd like to see things taken to another level. Matching wits rather than fists, let's say.

That's a challenge Daniel is more likely to enjoy -- especially if no one actually gets hurt. If lives are at stake, though, he's liable to be seriously unamused by Vala's antics.


Really, really excellent response, Margaret! I may be lured back to the forums yet!

Thank you. I'm glad you're back, Courser. I always thought you had a lot to contribute.

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 03:24 PM
I don't feel as irked by this story as I did in, say Season 7, where Daniel seemed unable to navigate the simplest diplomatic situation.

Are you talking about the Kelowna conference? That ticked me off as well, and I think Jack undermined him in his area of expertise.


If lives are at stake, though, he's liable to be seriously unamused by Vala's antics.

I agree with this. I'm also inclined to think Daniel sees the risk of his own life and the risk of other people's lives in different terms.

Spoiler: I still think she's going to help rescue Daniel from the Moebius situation.



Courser

(((((Courser)))))

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 29th, 2004, 03:45 PM
That's a challenge Daniel is more likely to enjoy -- especially if no one actually gets hurt. If lives are at stake, though, he's liable to be seriously unamused by Vala's antics.

I'm not so sure that Vala's so ruthless that she'd intentionally put anyone in danger. After all, she didn't really injure anyone when she transported them onto the Alkesh. But you're right, if she did put someone in danger, he certainly wouldn't be amused. Of course if anyone can convince her to 'do the right thing' it'd be Daniel :)

Actually I'd like to see them trading sexual innuendos back and forth, but that may be a bit much to ask of Daniel. On the other hand, I dunno. He came up with the Persian Virgin story, so I imagine he knows others.


Thank you. I'm glad you're back, Courser. I always thought you had a lot to contribute.

Thanks Margaret!

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 03:56 PM
After all, she didn't really injure anyone when she transported them onto the Alkesh.

Vala did take special care about that, and she was taking a risk to do so.


Of course if anyone can convince her to 'do the right thing' it'd be Daniel :)

She gives Daniel a chance to shine! Every now and again, people need to be reminded Daniel has these persuasive skills.


Actually I'd like to see them trading sexual innuendos back and forth, but that may be a bit much to ask of Daniel.

I'd like to see him blush and sputter. And I'd really like Teal'c to be present and give him a hard time about it.



On the other hand, I dunno. He came up with the Persian Virgin story, so I imagine he knows others.

ROTFL - I'm sure he's familiar with the entire heritage of courtship traditions and erotic literature. It's those little moments of prurience that helps academics get through a thousand pages of drivel.

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 29th, 2004, 04:53 PM
I'd like to see him blush and sputter. And I'd really like Teal'c to be present and give him a hard time about it.

You know, he didn't blush and/or stutter much in PU (gotta be a better shorthand than *that*). I'm thinking it might have been because there was no one around for him to be embarassed in front of. I'm not saying that he's putting it on, just that he doesn't have to worry about anyone other than Vala.

But put Teal'c and whoever else there and we may indeed see some of that. How about he blushes and stutters and then comes out with something really clever? And pointed - gotta love that sharp wit! I think we'd both be happy with that.


ROTFL - I'm sure he's familiar with the entire heritage of courtship traditions and erotic literature. It's those little moments of prurience that helps academics get through a thousand pages of drivel.

LOL! Yup, I'm sure he's got about a million little erotic cultural factiods in that brain of his!

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 05:01 PM
You know, he didn't blush and/or stutter much in PU (gotta be a better shorthand than *that*).

I agree he'd only start blushing if he thought his friends were seeing a ship he's trying to hide/deny...

Oh, and today's afternoon ep was the one where Teal'c calls Daniel "woman". I suspect Daniel has lingering manliness issues around Teal'c.



blushes and stutters and then comes out with something really clever? And pointed - gotta love that sharp wit! I think we'd both be happy with that.

As much as I love the blush and stutter, I also like to see Daniel get his own back...
;)



LOL! Yup, I'm sure he's got about a million little erotic cultural factiods in that brain of his!

I'm now proposing a toast to hearing more of them in the future...

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 29th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Oh, and today's afternoon ep was the one where Teal'c calls Daniel "woman". I suspect Daniel has lingering manliness issues around Teal'c.

Who wouldn't, lol? I've always really enjoyed Threshold. As much for the glimpses into Teal'c's past as for the little quips about fabric and calling Daniel a woman!


As much as I love the blush and stutter, I also like to see Daniel get his own back...
;)

I keep trying to think of some snappy comebacks Daniel might use, and I'm just not coming up with them! In some respects I figure their intial interaction might be dictated by who sees who first. In other words Daniel's reaction will probably be quite different if she surprises him than if he has some time to prepare himself. They both have intriguing possibilities.


I'm now proposing a toast to hearing more of them in the future...


Here, here!

:::raising my glass of... iced tea. Oh well, I'll have to wait for Friday for anything stronger ;) :::

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 05:26 PM
I keep trying to think of some snappy comebacks Daniel might use, and I'm just not coming up with them!

Me, too. Guess that's why my Vala fic is not getting written.


In other words Daniel's reaction will probably be quite different if she surprises him than if he has some time to prepare himself.

I agree with this, and I think Daniel would especially want to know if other team members like Teal'c might be present. With all this in mind, I think Vala will surprise him, lol.


:::raising my glass of... iced tea. Oh well, I'll have to wait for Friday for anything stronger ;) :::

Well, that's stronger than my parfait glass of chocolate pudding...

Later,
Graculus

courser
December 29th, 2004, 05:55 PM
Okay, one thing I'm fairly sure of is that Vala will mention that Daniel's seen her naked in front of his teammates.

Daniel: You didn't give me much choice.

Vala: If I remember correctly, I offered to take them off myself.

Daniel: So you could kick me in the head! Which you did anyway!

Vala: Don't exaggerate Daniel... I didn't kick you in the head, I punched you in the head. And then you punched me in the face. (At which point she feigns a wounded look at his teammates, who are looking at him like he's grown a second head) *Then* I kicked you, but not in the head.

Daniel's face gets all pinched as he remembers how the fight went...

Daniel: Okay... nevermind...

Vala: Right. Don't want your friends to know that right after I kissed you, you zatted me in the *ss when my back was turned.

The incredulous looks on his friends' faces grow even more amazed and unamused at this news.

Daniel: You head-butted me and thought I was unconscious!

Vala: Playing possum he was... so he could take my clothes off while *I* was unconscious. Better be careful Daniel or I might do the same to you - see how you like it.

Anyway... so much for that... not very good, but I'm finding it fairly difficult.

Peace out
Courser

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 06:06 PM
Okay, one thing I'm fairly sure of is that Vala will mention that Daniel's seen her naked in front of his teammates.

I agree it's highly likely.


Vala: Don't exaggerate Daniel... I didn't kick you in the head, I punched you in the head. And then you punched me in the face.

ROTFL, I can see the rest of the team getting progressively more interested...


Vala: Right. Don't want your friends to know that right after I kissed you, you zatted me in the *ss when my back was turned.

::snorts coffee on keyboard::


Vala: Playing possum he was... so he could take my clothes off while *I* was unconscious. Better be careful Daniel or I might do the same to you - see how you like it.

Tee, hee. And that's when BB's character moves in to start flirting.

I also think Vala might have some interesting remarks when she sees Daniel's collection of ceremonial erotic figurines from planet PX3-666. Ah, poor guy.

Later,
Graculus

Vala
December 29th, 2004, 07:55 PM
haha even though I haven't seen the ep this thread continues to crack me up lol

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Maybe if we twitter on long enough, Daniel will take his shirt off again...

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 29th, 2004, 11:42 PM
Or Vala will take it off for him.

Paybacks are hell! ;)

graculus
December 29th, 2004, 11:50 PM
Oooh, Daniel's getting his payback right now...

http://www.wolfdigital.net/~dissertation/images/mmm.jpg

Margaret
December 30th, 2004, 12:00 AM
Even if the Refugee story turns out to be untrue, I don't think we can rule out that Vala has a rational reason for wanting the ship (or rather the naquada she intended to trade it for). Maybe it was even for a weapon to fight the goa'uld?

I agree. Further, after reading Hacheter's post,
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=248202&postcount=1
I think it would be possible to explain most of Vala's behavior as "mission-related."



I love the psychological and moral problem this creates for Daniel.

I like it because it raises interesting questions. 'What is the value of kindness in a cruel world?'

'Does it make sense to be decent to someone who will stab you in the back first chance she gets?'



I'd love to find out that Vala can match Daniel IQ point for IQ point, too.

I'd be fine with that.

graculus
December 30th, 2004, 12:08 AM
Hacheter's post,
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=248202&postcount=1
I think it would be possible to explain most of Vala's behavior as "mission-related."

That was an interesting post, and Hacheter is right that Vala resorted to just about every tactic in the Rumsfield's Secret Memo. I don't hold it against her any more than I would hold it against a male mercenary character, though.


I like it because it raises interesting questions. 'What is the value of kindness in a cruel world?'

A question I always like to ponder, but I'm eternally depressed by the results of such pondering. ::sigh::


'Does it make sense to be decent to someone who will stab you in the back first chance she gets?'

No, but I'm sure Daniel will try to be decent anyway. We may have to reconsider who is rational here. And whether rationality is moral.

I think I like being 'sex-obsessed' better.

Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 30th, 2004, 12:23 AM
Hey, maybe Vala's people really are pirates, scooped up from the high seas and transplanted by the Goa'uld?

Piracy usually crops up where there is a power vacuum. In a Stargate setting, you might expect to see it where the Goa'uld have abandoned a territory, or where the Goa'uld have been thrown out, but the local government is not strong enough to enforce order.

If the Goa'uld have abandoned the territory, it may be because the naquada mines have run out. Hence Vala's need to trade for the stuff.

If the Goa'uld were driven out, then it is at least possible that there is some truth to Vala's story.

If Vala is a *former* host, then she probably isn't working with Goa'uld, she'd be very unpopular with them. Sort of a traitor.

It's possible that Vala is *still* a goa'uld, but she'd have to be a very unusual one like the one in Fallout.

If Vala's people are pirates, like a tribe of pirates, then they are probably a very isolated group that regards the rest of humanity as . . . basically milch cows to be exploited for whatever profit they might yield. In this case, Vala's ethics would be based on personal or tribal loyalty rather than on universal principles. However, that would not explain why she trasported everyone to the Al-Kesh instead of shoving them out the airlock.

Margaret
December 30th, 2004, 12:31 AM
If the Goa'uld were driven out, then it is at least possible that there is some truth to Vala's story.

My understanding is that the Tok'ra strategy is not to overthrow the Goa'uld piecemeal, one at a time, but to infiltrate and wait for the time when it is possible to bring them all down at once.

If this is so, then it is unlikely that a Tok'ra operative instigated a rebellion.

graculus
December 30th, 2004, 12:34 AM
Piracy usually crops up where there is a power vacuum.

Or rival states pay for privateers to harass enemy ships...


If the Goa'uld have abandoned the territory, it may be because the naquada mines have run out. Hence Vala's need to trade for the stuff.

If the Goa'uld were driven out, then it is at least possible that there is some truth to Vala's story.

If Vala is a *former* host, then she probably isn't working with Goa'uld, she'd be very unpopular with them. Sort of a traitor.

It's possible that Vala is *still* a goa'uld, but she'd have to be a very unusual one like the one in Fallout.

I'm getting more and more interested in what Vala's history as a Goa'uld mean to her. Also, her memories and skills could be important to the SGC. It seems to me Daniel needed to leave the door open to winning Vala over in the future. If that was the case, the final zat-blast was self-indulgent and counter-productive to Earth's interests. Daniel should be making as nice to her as he can without getting kicked in the head.



If Vala's people are pirates, like a tribe of pirates, then they are probably a very isolated group that regards the rest of humanity as . . . basically milch cows to be exploited for whatever profit they might yield. In this case, Vala's ethics would be based on personal or tribal loyalty rather than on universal principles.

But pirates are still people, so there's always hope that there is some humanitarian sentiment going on. Or at least a squeamishness about doing truly horrible things.



However, that would not explain why she trasported everyone to the Al-Kesh instead of shoving them out the airlock.

I think there's good in her that Daniel will see and/or possibly draw out.

Or he could be attracted to the lusty and carefree pirate lifestyle. Military life can be rather conformist and confining.

http://www.wolfdigital.net/~dissertation/images/mmm.jpg

graculus
December 30th, 2004, 12:40 AM
then it is unlikely that a Tok'ra operative instigated a rebellion.

I was going to say good point, but then I realized that the Tok'ra would not necessarily have to reveal him/herself to foment rebellion. He/she could just gripe at the local tavern until the native leaders took up the cause.

Since Vala had a vested interest in messing with Daniel's head, I agree that we can't assume anything from what she told Daniel. The fact she can use goa'uld technology suggests she's at least telling the truth about being a former goa'uld, though. I really hope she isn't a current one. :(


Later,
Graculus

Margaret
December 30th, 2004, 12:48 AM
That was an interesting post, and Hacheter is right that Vala resorted to just about every tactic in the Rumsfield's Secret Memo. I don't hold it against her any more than I would hold it against a male mercenary character, though.

I would certainly hold it against the male mercenary character, and I'd be happy to hold it against Vala, too.

The difference it makes to me is that it makes it possible to see apparently wild, random and nutty behavior as purposeful, calculated and ruthless.

But if you at least know that a person's behavior is goal-driven, then you have some clue about what they're going to do and how to deal with them.