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GateWorld
October 11th, 2009, 05:39 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border: none;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s2/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/2031.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">SANCTUARY SEASON TWO</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s2/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">EULOGY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 203</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
While the Sanctuary deals with a massive intake of abnormals from Tokyo and London, Magnus struggles with the possibility that her daughter may be dead. Kate helps the team track a one-of-a-kind creature she accidentally set loose.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/sanctuary/s2/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

MissCheerfully
October 23rd, 2009, 07:03 PM
I can't believe Ashley is dead. The end of the episode was wonderful so sad as Wood or Damian said.

Skydiver
October 23rd, 2009, 07:03 PM
a really good eps

helen's desperation was almost painful to watch. although, you know, i did laugh at the 'she's in the pattern buffer' bit

kate...is ok when she's with henry and he's snarking right back. bit OTT when folks jsut roll thier eyes at her. But i think she'll tone down a bit

i LOVED the '20 boxes? i have loads of boxes' bit. just downright humorous

it was and odd blend of comedy, humor, pathos and desperation and it worked. one kept the other from being too much

and i LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that john is going after dana

go ripper go

wkw427
October 23rd, 2009, 07:13 PM
She can't be dead because she's still in the ruddy intro right!?

Amalthea
October 23rd, 2009, 07:14 PM
Oh my goodness, I am still crying! That was the most heartbreaking thing. Helen's tears and everything. And Big Foot's doll that he made for her! I think I'm going to cry all night.

Ok, moving on from the end, I could have done without the little flying guy, to be honest, but I did enjoy the hunt for the sthenosaur or whatever it was. The "capture" at the end cracked me up. I hoped it would have changed Kate a little more than it did, but it was a start, I think.

I hope John "plays" with her a little before he drops her off a bridge or something equally horrible. That's so wrong of me, but I hate her for what she did!

kthomassg
October 23rd, 2009, 07:15 PM
I just knew that Ashley was going to walk up to Dana while she was having tea. I just don't think I'm going to believe that Ashley is gone, it is sci-fi, does anyone really die.

Skydiver
October 23rd, 2009, 07:20 PM
i had that thought too, that ash would pop up somewhere.

which i think she will. i dunno, i have an idea that helen will find that necklace somewhere.

and you are not alone in hoping that john...relives some memories of his time in london with dana

she deserves it

antoa
October 23rd, 2009, 07:21 PM
She can't be dead because she's still in the ruddy intro right!?
Not really spoilery, but just in case.

10 to 1 that she isn't in the intro next week.

The first pod cast they mentioned that it was their 'old credits', so I think there will be 'new credits' that will include Ryan and Agam.

Amalthea
October 23rd, 2009, 07:22 PM
Oh, and I forgot... I was so sure that Ashley was going to come back, which breaks my heart even more. In the last couple days, it occurred to me that maybe she could rematerialize once the shield came down, with her super healing powers and all... but then no... empty casket. Was that her diary that Henry put in? Oh, here come the tears again...

kthomassg
October 23rd, 2009, 07:24 PM
Just like in the soaps, no body no death.

shel
October 23rd, 2009, 07:28 PM
I just knew that Ashley was going to walk up to Dana while she was having tea. I just don't think I'm going to believe that Ashley is gone, it is sci-fi, does anyone really die.

I thought Ashley was going to walk up to Dana too! But then she didn't, but John was there so I hope he gets her soon! Hate Dana!!!

I can't believe Ashley is dead. Though I also hope it's a sci-fi death and we find out she's not really dead somehow. But the end where they had her memorial service and Helen told "Ashley" that she was her life, I was ready to jump in there and give Helen a hug! Amazing episode and amazing performance by Amanda again. But it was sooo sad, there was so much pain through the whole episode but espically during the last moments. :(

meredithchandler73
October 23rd, 2009, 07:45 PM
AWESOME episode! I was surprised that the different tones in the show worked together. And I found myself hating Kate just a little less this week. Still don't love her, but it's nice to despise her less.

Terrific performances by all. The chemistry between Druitt and Magnus is just amazing. Their scenes together were stellar. REALLY want to see more of their history together!

Regarding Ashley being seen in the credits...that could change. I think a friend who was a die-hard Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan once told me that not only did a character get killed off and the credits changed the following week - but the actress finally got her billing bumped up for the episode where her character was killed off in. How's that for harsh?

For about two seconds I wondered if Ashley would somehow show up at the end with Dana, but then I thought it would be Druitt exacting his revenge and I was right. Even though I don't want Ashley to be dead, I kind of think she should really be dead. It's devastating for everyone, but it shows the high stakes in this world.

kthomassg
October 23rd, 2009, 07:54 PM
I agree Kate was just a bit less annoying this week, and I think that has to do with Henry.
I truly do wish this cast would get the recognition they deserve. Tonight’s episode was once again, wonderful.
Still don’t know how you kill off one of the MAIN characters the first show back of the second season. Even on NCIS they didn’t kill Caitlin 'Kate' off (of course that was her decision) until the end of season 2.

EvenstarSRV
October 23rd, 2009, 07:55 PM
That was....interesting.

It was an odd blend of storylines, the angst of Helen still searching for Ashley and the slight goofiness of Henry and Kate's search for the Steno-thing. It didn't flow too well for me this first time around, mostly because I was far more interested in Helen's search and didn't care much about the other.

I enjoyed all the Helen and Will and Helen and Druitt interaction, and it was really cool to see Druitt on the warpath but still in control, for the most part. I wonder if they'll show him dispatching Dana, or it'll just be assumed from that teaser.

Kate is growing on me, I like that Henry and Bigfoot called her out on her actions and didn't give her carte blanche to do as she wants. She reminds me a lot of Clara, puts on a tough front but you don't have to dig too far to find vulnerability.

Ashley's memorial was very nicely done, and that cathedral part of Sanctuary looked great. Helen was heartbreaking with her 'but you're my life' when she sees Ashley again. But why was Helen seeing Ashley everywhere? A sort of psychotic break from dealing with her death, or has she somehow become part of the Sanctuary? Though likely, I hope this isn't the last time we see Ashley on the show.

shel
October 23rd, 2009, 08:04 PM
I really hope this isn't the last time we see Ashley too. Hopefully she'll be brought back somehow.

Replicator Todd
October 23rd, 2009, 08:19 PM
A nice episode, im not fully connected to the show just yet.

kir_fect
October 23rd, 2009, 08:22 PM
Dusted off the old account to pop in! Does anyone know about the music in the episodes???

charles582
October 23rd, 2009, 08:29 PM
I know that this may sound a bit of desperation but isn't it possible that ashley got thrown through time? maybe she lost her memory as well?

Pandora's_Box
October 23rd, 2009, 08:30 PM
Sorry, but no.

Apparently this show must have it's requisite "kick ass" female and now with Ashley gone that role has gone to Kate. A poor replacement in my opinion, one that I couldn't stand the moment she began speaking in the premiere and I continue to not be able to stand her.

It may all be a "tough kid" act (and I understand the psychology of that) to protect herself, but usually there needs to be more depth to that sort of characterisation in order to make it both understandable and perhaps even likeable as opposed to horrendously overblown.

Maybe I need to see her do something other than make attempts at pithy remarks or maybe they should have gotten a better actress, but whatever the problem, I'm not feeling her.

I'm sad we won't be seeing any more of the awesome dynamic between Helen and Ashley...one of the high points of season one for me. There are far too few truly dynamic, intriguing, and believable relationships between women on television (Gilmore Girls was not believable at ALL) so to wipe this one off in favour of what exactly? The sort of angst EVERY television utilises instead of being marginally more original and actually continuing to explore the amazing relationship between mother and daughter?

Thanks, but no thanks, Sanctuary. If I wanted a brash, tough, smart ass character I'd check out any other show on television.

Mack_1
October 23rd, 2009, 08:44 PM
Totally awesome and different show from last week but really good.

I agree, that last scene was heart breaking, Big guy and Henry even Will manage to move me but Helen ,man Helen managed to break my heart again, I had my nice with me at that moment and I couldn’t help but to hug her closer to me as I try not to cry.

Will scalding Kate for her room been so mess up and telling her “if you go clean up…even if you stay clean up” was so funny in a way.

Big Guy slaphappy Will and Kate was so funny also I got a déjà vu SG-1 moment when Helen tells Will she thinks “Ashley is in the computer”

Druitt and Helen moments were so good and strong, I hope Druitt stays and that he interact more with Helen, when he tells her he and Tesla had been “busy” dealing with the Cabal; I was like yeah!!

Dana as a fugitive was better than good; but at the end when Dana is shown and Druitt is there, I was wanting to see what John was planning to do to her…hope they tell us something in future episodes.

"There is a part of you that..." That stament say so much about Helen and John's history and maybe a dark side of Helen that we haven't see.

John managed to let me see him as a dad not as the murderer he is, a dad in anguish at the lost of her daughter “They took her from us in the most unnatural way!”:( and the expresion on their faces was priceless

When Helen and Will talk about where in the Sanctuary Ashley may have ended up was so full of emotions “Do you really want me to stop?” and when they find the boy stuck in the wall I was like NO!!

Those scenes showing Helen looking for the Indian Town, in a way was the sequences she herself was letting Ashley go , I also do hope Ash isn’t gone for real but I guess just like all of us we are going to have to wait.

Kate is working for me a little bit more this week I wonder if we see the interaction between her and Helen later, Will was the one to ask her to stay not Helen.

Henry: “This is a disaster”

Kate: “The Titanic was a disaster…Madonna’s movie carrier was a disaster; this is nothing”

Again Friday is my favorite day of the week!

WishIwasJoes
October 23rd, 2009, 08:49 PM
I agree. Kate has half the charm that Ashley had and the mother daughter feel was something I think alot of female viewers really loved. I also love how Helen and John are interaction now.

suse
October 23rd, 2009, 08:53 PM
a really good eps

helen's desperation was almost painful to watch. although, you know, i did laugh at the 'she's in the pattern buffer' bit

kate...is ok when she's with henry and he's snarking right back. bit OTT when folks jsut roll thier eyes at her. But i think she'll tone down a bit

i LOVED the '20 boxes? i have loads of boxes' bit. just downright humorous

it was and odd blend of comedy, humor, pathos and desperation and it worked. one kept the other from being too much

and i LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that john is going after dana

go ripper go
One more canoe, coming up. :o

Oh, I could feel the tention in Hele. AT did and incredible job, as did RD and CH as John.

And as Biggie. "Don't bare your teeth at me. I know what that means." <<headclout>> :lol:

It was an odd mixture od humor and pathos. Well done by all. I'm still hoping Kate will grow on me.

:p I had the creature pegged wrong til they found her jeans. Till then I thought eating meat had turned him - kinda like feeding gremlins after midnight. Being a 'mum' gives Kate a reason to stay and see abbys as more than 'bags'. And hopefully bond a bit.

badwolfSG
October 23rd, 2009, 09:47 PM
I was so sure there were going to find Ashley alive somewhere.... but my hope are not lost!!!


mostly b/c on IMDb is has Ashley(Emilie Ullerup) list for 26 episodes of santuary. It even has he listed in next friday episode... so we just going to have to wait and see what happen with her character.

sandra-carter
October 23rd, 2009, 09:51 PM
just saw the episode, and I can not get my head the last scene ... was so strong .. I cried ... AT really knows how to touch the hearts of people ....
was ... I have no words really a special episode ...
I think ashley is alive somewhere .. but we have to wait and see ...
Amanda Tapping congratulations performance in 1000.

you're the best actress in drama, without a doubt


other well represented ... liked to see that John is more accessible, more human ..

"You are my life" Oh broke my heart...

suse
October 23rd, 2009, 10:09 PM
I was so sure there were going to find Ashley alive somewhere.... but my hope are not lost!!!


mostly b/c on IMDb is has Ashley(Emilie Ullerup) list for 26 episodes of santuary. It even has he listed in next friday episode... so we just going to have to wait and see what happen with her character.

IMDB is notoriously inaccurate. NOTORIOUSLY.

suse

majorsal
October 23rd, 2009, 10:22 PM
i am sad. :(

i'm not even sure what i think of the ep as a whole. while i think we 'needed' a release of the tension of helen hunting for ashley, i thought some of the creature stuff was sillish. and i wanted to bop kate a time or two.

but the meat of the ep was helen... amanda really is an amazing actress. she's always been able to convey *so* much with just a look on her face, especially her eyes...

i asked rocky to tell me if ash was alive, dead, or something else, and he told me dead. (that's the only spoiler i asked of him). so i built of this melancholy feeling till by the end of the ep, my throat hurt. it's left me very sad.

i really, really hope ashley's not dead. helen didn't 'feel' it, so...

while i love seeing amanda act her butt off, this storyline is something i hate. i adore mother/daughter relationships, and this one barely had a chance to shine. there was still SO much to show! :(

so maybe, somewhere, someday, ashley will come back...

(((helen and ashley)))


quick side note: mom came in to talk about amanda. she gushed. amanda, you're amazing. :samanime51:

flea247
October 23rd, 2009, 10:42 PM
another great ep...nothing i can say that i didnt enjoy about it :)
well done to the cast and i hope this is just the beginning of an even greater set of eps/seasons.... :D

the ending had me all teary eyed... and i have never cried in a movie/tv show b4..... that has to mean something!

kes
October 23rd, 2009, 11:07 PM
AT and CH are amazing! Their scenes were awesome.

I loved the fact that the big guy was all about protecting magnus LOL

Sad way to start the day thou. And EU looked so beautiful! No bangs girl! Def!

Still trying to fit the funny ep thou :S I think that will look wierd after this.

One thing: I wanted to se Dana get sliced to bits!

badwolfSG
October 23rd, 2009, 11:14 PM
IMDB is notoriously inaccurate. NOTORIOUSLY.

suse

Ya, I was afraid of that... still holding out hope.

bossluna
October 24th, 2009, 12:23 AM
I can't get the image of that last scene out of my head. That cathedral was was such a beautiful backdrop to a beautiful moment. I wasn't prepared for it, so when I saw the four of them standing before an open casket, I kinda lost it. And the music...man, the music was so hauntingly mesmerizing and it evoked so much sadness that I can still feel it as I write.

Amanda Tapping...sigh. Amazing amazing performance. She makes me believe.

I don't know where the rest of the season is headed but I will be there every Friday to find out.

RealmOfX
October 24th, 2009, 12:28 AM
Ashley ain't dead!

Nuh Uh!!

No Way, Jose

No body, not dead

Even if there was a body, Not Dead I tells ya!

*stubbornly clings to my beliefs*


Now that I've gotten that off my chest :P :D

Well that was an episode with a lot of odd matching stuff going on but it worked for me once I stopped myself from hating on Kate. Seriously, she reminds me of InvisiGirl and all I ever wanted to do with Clara was shove her under a bus :S Maybe the new girl will grow on me??? I hope so, otherwise the other eight episodes she is in this season are gonna drag but more on that later.

I absolutely loved all the Helen bits and the Druitt bits, especially when they were together. I love how AT & CH bring their characters to life in scenes with each other. I especially loved Chris's scenes where you can see the madness peeking through. Sitting there drinking with blood still on him - chilling. And in the back of my mind I kept hearing his "I love the dark" soliloquy from the webisodes and wishing we could see him go all "Jack" on Dana's butt! Then, at the end, when he gets up from the table and follows Dana I'm going "That better be Jack's sword stick!!"

Can't wait for the podcast to be put up on Syfy, I really want to watch this again with the commentary.


Kate just isn't gelling with me and I ain't happy. Grrrrrrrrrr.

NurseFG
October 24th, 2009, 02:05 AM
i really hope Ashley isnt dead the show just wouldnt be the same without her

jasminaGo
October 24th, 2009, 02:08 AM
Ashley ain't dead!

Nuh Uh!!

No Way, Jose

No body, not dead

Even if there was a body, Not Dead I tells ya!

*stubbornly clings to my beliefs*

I'm with you on that.

Honestly I'm really hoping that Ashley will come back someway, somehow... It'll be a terrible sci-fi cliche, but I don't care. The Helen/Ashley/John dynamic is my favorite part of the show and I'm not ready to give it up yet. And the fact that Helen said that her feelings tell her Ashley is alive gives me hope.

Brilliant performances by AT and CH. Their scenes together were just stunning. And the ending... *cries*

Can't wait to find out how slow and painful Dana's death was.

Bigfoot was more awesome then ever, being all protective of Helen. *huggles him*

Still no love for new girl. Maybe if she's not around so much she's be more tolerable.

Skydiver
October 24th, 2009, 04:01 AM
i loved the dichotomy of helen - we must pick up and move on - vs john - we mus take our vengeance and make them pay.

i still think ash will show up, but not until the end of the season.

Kate....kate is annoying. That said, Henry is good at toning her down so i hope they pair the two of them up a lot. she needs to be called on the carpet not patronized. I can't wait to see helen tearing into her :)

she's been a bit distracted until now but that will change next week i think.

kes
October 24th, 2009, 04:42 AM
They actually give a good way to have Ash still alive. The other abnormal was stuck in the wall so Magnus theory that it bounced into another part of the house could be true. And maybe she just took off.

Skydiver
October 24th, 2009, 04:44 AM
i can go with the:

bounced out, memory foggy, runs out of fear and doesn't know who she is

theory

and also the

bounced out, knows who she is and what she did, but knows if she goes back she'll again be a target for the cabal, so, to save her mother's work, she stays away, stays out of the line of fire and takes time to deal with what's been done to her

either angle works, at least in my mind :)

knowles2
October 24th, 2009, 06:45 AM
Well the only place Helen did not look was in her self, may be they somehow joined together. She looked everywhere else.

I just do not see her as being able to leave the Sanctuary without the security alarms going off.


Awesome episode.
Cannot wait to see duitt take his revenge. Would love to have seen him tearing some Cabal facility through.

Blue Shadowdancer
October 24th, 2009, 07:09 AM
Loved this episode, and my eyes are still teary! The last scene had me sobbing. And I loved how they balanced Helen's almost-break-from-reality with the humour of the others. I didn't like Kate in End of Nights, but she's really growing on me now, and hopefully will continue to.

I do agree with what a couple of other people in the thead have said. While I'm terribly sad that Ashley's dead, I really hope she stays dead. I've never liked the 'nobody dies in scifi' mantra (although UK scifi, davros aside, doesn't seem to follow it, and that's what I'm more used to), because I think it really does cheapen the emotional impact of the characters dying, especially with the danger that if they're brought back they may not be as 'good' a character as before, such as (imo) Beckett and Weir.

Dunno if we'll see Druitt actually kill Dana or not... it could be creepier just to have a very dead body found, and infer for ourselves what he did to her...

jasminaGo
October 24th, 2009, 07:26 AM
Around 600 caps from the ep

203 Eulogy.zip (http://www.4shared.com/file/143278917/c4ce6aad/203_Eulogy.html)

lordofseas
October 24th, 2009, 07:32 AM
i can go with the:

bounced out, memory foggy, runs out of fear and doesn't know who she is

theory

and also the

bounced out, knows who she is and what she did, but knows if she goes back she'll again be a target for the cabal, so, to save her mother's work, she stays away, stays out of the line of fire and takes time to deal with what's been done to her

either angle works, at least in my mind :)

They both could potentially work, and they both fit with what we know. However, she was holding onto the other super-abnormal. Perhaps they are stuck in a cosmic battle that will never end in the middle of the Sahara Desert. :P No, really, because of the super-abnormal in the wall, and the fluxuations, she could be alive. :P


I agree with this, I really LOVED Ashley, and the interactions with her mother, that way her death had more impact for me. I really hope they don't pull a Dr. Beckett on us, or even worse, a Elisbeth Weir.

I do hope not. The way that Elizabeth Weir was done.....grr.....

EH-T
October 24th, 2009, 08:17 AM
I was out last night and had to tape the ep so I saw it when I got home and was tired so I really need to watch it again but ....


a really good eps

helen's desperation was almost painful to watch. although, you know, i did laugh at the 'she's in the pattern buffer' bit

Me too, I immediately thought of Teal'c in 48 Hours.


it was and odd blend of comedy, humor, pathos and desperation and it worked. one kept the other from being too much

It was an odd combo. I'm more in line with Evenstar on this one, I found it didn't work for me.


and i LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that john is going after dana

go ripper go[/

LOL! Who would think we would be cheering for that?

Although I would have liked to have seen a showdown of Helen and Dana. Oh well. I do hope we get to see what happened. I'm not interested in gore but would like to see the look on Dana's face when she sees John.


That was....interesting.

It was an odd blend of storylines, the angst of Helen still searching for Ashley and the slight goofiness of Henry and Kate's search for the Steno-thing. It didn't flow too well for me this first time around, mostly because I was far more interested in Helen's search and didn't care much about the other.

I agree.


I enjoyed all the Helen and Will and Helen and Druitt interaction, and it was really cool to see Druitt on the warpath but still in control, for the most part. I wonder if they'll show him dispatching Dana, or it'll just be assumed from that teaser.

I hope we see something of the confrontation.


Kate is growing on me, I like that Henry and Bigfoot called her out on her actions and didn't give her carte blanche to do as she wants. She reminds me a lot of Clara, puts on a tough front but you don't have to dig too far to find vulnerability.

Have to say I loved Kate's reaction to Bigfoot smacking her in the head.


Ashley's memorial was very nicely done, and that cathedral part of Sanctuary looked great. Helen was heartbreaking with her 'but you're my life' when she sees Ashley again. But why was Helen seeing Ashley everywhere? A sort of psychotic break from dealing with her death, or has she somehow become part of the Sanctuary? Though likely, I hope this isn't the last time we see Ashley on the show.

Again, I agree.

As much as I love the show and have been anxiously awaiting season 2 and as much as I have liked the episodes and loved the performances, something has been nagging at me so far this season. I realised it was the impending and now apparent doom of Ashley. To be prefectly honest, that has diminished my enjoyment of the season so far.

I'll admit part of it is having met EU. She is such a nice young lady and acting is a tough way to make a living so I want her to continue to be employed in a regular gig.

Part of it is that (while I love the guy) I don't subscribe to MW's theory that you have to kill off characters to keep jeopardy alive. First, I don't buy that because regardless of how many other people they kill off we know they'll never do it to Helen so there is no real jeopardy to her. Second, if I like a character I want to continue to see them. I don't watch this show for the visual effects or because they use the red camera. I watch it out of loyality to the cast and crew and because I love the characters. In addition, as others have said, if "no one really dies in scifi" it again makes the jeopardy argument moot.

I liked the fact we had a mother/daughter relationship on this show. I thought it held great potential. I also thought there was a wonderful opportunity to explore the relationship between John and Ashley. The storyline of using Ashley as a Cabal "weapon" was brilliant and I think it opens up great potential for Ashley to deal with what was done to her and what she did while under the Cabal's control. That potential is wasted if she is dead. I hope that is not the case.

shel
October 24th, 2009, 09:01 AM
I liked the fact we had a mother/daughter relationship on this show. I thought it held great potential. I also thought there was a wonderful opportunity to explore the relationship between John and Ashley. The storyline of using Ashley as a Cabal "weapon" was brilliant and I think it opens up great potential for Ashley to deal with what was done to her and what she did while under the Cabal's control. That potential is wasted if she is dead. i hope that is not the case.

I agree. The whole mother/daughter relationship with Helen and Ashley was my favorite aspect of the show, not to mention the potential relation Ash could have with John. And if she is dead then all that just flys out the window.

I love the show, but I really hope that Ashley isn't dead.

AnnieS
October 24th, 2009, 10:09 AM
a really good eps

helen's desperation was almost painful to watch. although, you know, i did laugh at the 'she's in the pattern buffer' bit

kate...is ok when she's with henry and he's snarking right back. bit OTT when folks jsut roll thier eyes at her. But i think she'll tone down a bit

i LOVED the '20 boxes? i have loads of boxes' bit. just downright humorous

it was and odd blend of comedy, humor, pathos and desperation and it worked. one kept the other from being too much

and i LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that john is going after dana

go ripper go

Totally agree with you. And totally hope that John gets her, she so deserves it.

When the hold opened, with the boxes HOLY CRAP, where are they going to stick everyone or thing :eek:!!! And can totally see why Ryan mentioned on Facebook about Slime and almost being scard of burgers and fries for life lol!!!

AnnieS
October 24th, 2009, 10:11 AM
Oh my goodness, I am still crying! That was the most heartbreaking thing. Helen's tears and everything. And Big Foot's doll that he made for her! I think I'm going to cry all night.

Ok, moving on from the end, I could have done without the little flying guy, to be honest, but I did enjoy the hunt for the sthenosaur or whatever it was. The "capture" at the end cracked me up. I hoped it would have changed Kate a little more than it did, but it was a start, I think.

I hope John "plays" with her a little before he drops her off a bridge or something equally horrible. That's so wrong of me, but I hate her for what she did!

I agree with little flying guy comments. Wished Henry had gone all wolf on him;)!!!

AnnieS
October 24th, 2009, 10:15 AM
I just knew that Ashley was going to walk up to Dana while she was having tea. I just don't think I'm going to believe that Ashley is gone, it is sci-fi, does anyone really die.

Just look at Dr. Beckett. And there was a charactor on a soap I watched, who was supposed to be dead and cremetted and he still came back :confused::eek:!!!

ann_sgcfan
October 24th, 2009, 11:19 AM
I thought it was a very good episode! Very emotional at the ending! I think they left it open ended enough (Helen is the only one that believes she is still alive, although she can't prove it) that if EU is healed and can do the stunts by next season (didn't EU say during the Haven One that she had had surgery and was doing better? So hopefully she can come back) they may be able to write her back in. As long as they have a reasonable explanation as to Ashley's whereabouts and why she stayed away it could still work. I still like the idea she maintains her abilities, just not under Cabal control if she returns. Perhaps she is on the run from them, injured from her transporting/EM shield encounter, perhaps her gift turns her mad like her dad. There are many options if she is well enough to come back.

Anyone else think Dana is setting up John? John has killed several Cabal operatives over the last 6 days, between the episodes ... so would Dana really be drinking coffee/tea without a care in the world alone in a city? She has been portrayed to be very strategic in her planning... I'm guessing Dana knew John was looking for her and she was waiting for him.

The desert scene in the 1950s didn't turn out the way I had thought it would :P - granted it was midnight when I watched it and had been a busy day. I thought that scene was going to show that the old lady was in fact Ashley (because she kept playing with her necklace). My thought was that because of the EM shield and two people transporting out at the same time that Ashley was not only able to bend space, but time as well. That's why she couldn't be found, that's not what they showed though... lol so possibly a fic idea I need to ponder on some more :p

jelgate
October 24th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Maybe its SGU or somthing else but Sanctuary is just not cutting it this year. Or maybe its an extension of the same problem I saw last year. Too much Helen and Will and not enough of the other characters. The cynic is me is disappointed that they killed off Ashley(Please no resurection cliches) they didn't know how to properly develop her which was very obvious in S1 as she wasn't used properly. So it is a little disappointing to have killed her off at the end. That said I quite liked the Helen looking for Ashley plot I'm just disappointed with the result. At least it was better then Henry and Kate Freelander hunting for that abnormal. Kate just reeks of uninteresting. I have seen these characters before and they are just boring. A final good part was Druitt. I sympathize and probably would have done what he is planning to do if someone killed a person I cared for. It seems their is no place to go but up. Lets hope it does

AnnieS
October 24th, 2009, 11:43 AM
Loved the fact that they used Vera's Burger Shack in the show. That had to been on location since there are many of these restaurants around Vancouver, including one not to far from the Sheraton Wall Center (the home of the Sanctuary Con)!!!!

http://www.verasburgershack.com/

EvenstarSRV
October 24th, 2009, 12:02 PM
It was an odd combo. I'm more in line with Evenstar on this one, I found it didn't work for me.

I watched the repeat and since I knew how the Ashley storyline ended, the two storylines worked a bit better for me, but not by much. I still would have rather seen Druitt and Tesla taking apart the Cabal network than Kate and Henry's search, but they probably didn't have the funds/time for that after End of Nights.



Part of it is that (while I love the guy) I don't subscribe to MW's theory that you have to kill off characters to keep jeopardy alive. First, I don't buy that because regardless of how many other people they kill off we know they'll never do it to Helen so there is no real jeopardy to her. Second, if I like a character I want to continue to see them. I don't watch this show for the visual effects or because they use the red camera. I watch it out of loyality to the cast and crew and because I love the characters. In addition, as others have said, if "no one really dies in scifi" it again makes the jeopardy argument moot.

For me, I don't really mind character deaths as long as they have a distinct and lasting impact on the other characters, it's not something that's seemingly forgotten in the next episode (ala Janet in Heroes). The whole team was affected by Ashley's death, and that should show in their future actions and interactions.

And bringing back 'dead' characters, while a much abused sci-fi cliche, I also don't mind again as long as that character's death and return impact the others characters. That's what made Daniel's death and return in SG-1 work for me, while Carson's in SGA did not. If they do bring Ashley back, it should affect her and the other characters as much as her death should.



I liked the fact we had a mother/daughter relationship on this show. I thought it held great potential. I also thought there was a wonderful opportunity to explore the relationship between John and Ashley. The storyline of using Ashley as a Cabal "weapon" was brilliant and I think it opens up great potential for Ashley to deal with what was done to her and what she did while under the Cabal's control. That potential is wasted if she is dead. I hope that is not the case.

I agree, the mother/daughter and father/daughter dynamics we saw from S1 are what I'll miss most with Ashley's death. It was an unique aspect of the show and something that I think gave it a lot of it's heart.

P-90_177
October 24th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Really great episode I thought. I'm glad they didn't find ashley in the end. I really like her of course but in the end they killed her so she needs to be gone. At least for a while. In the end if they bring her back then it's an excuse to say that helens deductive reasoning and instincts were always right. If not then at least they're sticking to what they've said about the em shield and it doesn't make helens emotions somewhat moot. This way it's a far more powerful thing to say ashleys death has left Helen in alot of pain cos.....Ashley was her daughter. On the other hand I always find it crappy when they kill a main character off within a season. It never gives much time to get to know that person. And if they were planning on killing her the whole time then you would want to see more of the mother daughter dynamic to make her end more powerful to.
Ah well. All in all still a great ep. Kate has grown on me a little bit with it. I just hope they keep the more rogueish behaviour in it. It's nice to have someone a little less than good and a bit selfish. Course Henry was awesome in this one too. Definately hoping we see him out in the field more.

Tittamiire
October 24th, 2009, 12:49 PM
I really enjoyed this episode...heartbreaking and sniffley.

Ashley - I am torn. I really like the character and I really like the dynamics between Ashley and the other characters, particularly Helen...but at the same time her death has such an impact that I don't want that to be cheapened by her coming back. *swithers*

Kate - was better this episode and I think the lines were actually alright...she just needs reining in a bit and she'll be much less annoying in the wrong way and more annoying in the way she's supposed to be annoying, which I'm okay with.

John - is a badass. I really like having the two biggest reactors to Ashley's death being able to go to extremes in Helen and John. Can't help cheering him on. The idea of him and Tesla off on a killing spree is so wrongly awesome and so right. Also enjoying the darker side to it and Chris is playing it so well. He's bang on the mark. Can't help feeling that as much as Helen is scared of him and knows what he's doing is wrong she also would like to have the freedom he does to go off the rails and do some damage.

Helen - heartbreaking all the way through everything, but the ending was really powerful. Her face change when she realises she has to stop was so well done.

The abnormals arriving from Beijing were fun! I liked the winged annoying guy and the scene with all the crates and trying to sort things out added some much needed humour that I enjoyed.

The split screen I like, as long as it's used sparingly. It was much more annoying in end of nights part one.

Looking forward to next week of course :D

DigiFluid
October 24th, 2009, 01:01 PM
Going into this episode, I think it was pretty clear that it wasn't going to a big huge megawesome episode like 2.02. Rather, it was pretty clear it would be an aftermath episode, and they really did not disappoint. Hearing about them rebuilding the various Sanctuaries worldwide was necessary and I'm glad they didn't just gloss over it.

There was some great stuff in this episode too. Druitt was brilliant, just simply bloody brilliant. Seeing him mourning in his own way, by drinking heavily between hunting down and destroying the Cabal was awesome stuff. Having only seen Heyerdahl as Wraith before this, I had no idea what his acting range was but damn he was good.

I'm not always big on flashbacks as a story means, but the Helen historical flashbacks were really, really cool. I'm not totally clear on what they meant, but they were good. The rapport between Helen and Will was terrific too, a real credit to either their acting skills, their real-life personal relationship, or most probably both.

Something I found a bit illogical....why were they trying to use those lasso things to try to capture the slimy little bugger in the Sanctuary? That just doesn't make any sense to me. Why not a net? Or a bucket?

The end was just terrific though, the funeral being played simultaneously with Druitt finding the Cabal boss lady. And the Helen/Ashley chat was tasteful and appropriate without being ridiculous. Great stuff.


I gotta say though, this Freelander chick and the godforsaken multicam thing are absolutely ruining the season for me--to the point that I'm actually considering quitting the show entirely. Entertaining stories are great and all, but not at the expense of wanting to claw my eyes out every 5 minutes.

Kef1
October 24th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Sorry, but no.

Apparently this show must have it's requisite "kick ass" female and now with Ashley gone that role has gone to Kate. A poor replacement in my opinion, one that I couldn't stand the moment she began speaking in the premiere and I continue to not be able to stand her.

It may all be a "tough kid" act (and I understand the psychology of that) to protect herself, but usually there needs to be more depth to that sort of characterisation in order to make it both understandable and perhaps even likeable as opposed to horrendously overblown.

Maybe I need to see her do something other than make attempts at pithy remarks or maybe they should have gotten a better actress, but whatever the problem, I'm not feeling her.

I'm sad we won't be seeing any more of the awesome dynamic between Helen and Ashley...one of the high points of season one for me. There are far too few truly dynamic, intriguing, and believable relationships between women on television (Gilmore Girls was not believable at ALL) so to wipe this one off in favour of what exactly? The sort of angst EVERY television utilises instead of being marginally more original and actually continuing to explore the amazing relationship between mother and daughter?

Thanks, but no thanks, Sanctuary. If I wanted a brash, tough, smart ass character I'd check out any other show on television.

I completely agree. I think that compared to the webisodes, the Ashley character was completely underdeveloped in season 1 (possibly SciFi's influence).

Now they've killed the character off and replaced her with something similar but much more cliched. I'm disappointed. I thought there was much to develop in character arcs with Ashley in the mix. Maybe they'll bring her back but frankly that would be a bit of a cop out. I'm a little over the whole Daniel Dead thing - it's been done to death (pardon the pun!).

I do hope that Kate Freelander improves - at the moment she's just making my teeth grind...

On the bright side AT and CH really kicked ass with their performances. I like what they did with Druitt hunting Dana - whether that will be dragged out a little more will be interesting to see.

P-90_177
October 24th, 2009, 02:02 PM
I have to say as well that I really liked Will in this ep as well. The way he kinda started off being worried about Magnus to cautiously hopeful about ashley then realising that Magnus is just in complete denial. I loved the way he yelled at her once he finally reached breaking point with her theories.

Inward Wind
October 24th, 2009, 02:12 PM
Definately not the ending I had hoped for, but really think they left the door wide open for Ashley to show up at some point. I don't agree with the argument that she is dead don't bring her back. Mainly because I don't think it has been confirmed...no body. If they had that, I would be more inclined to agree not to pull the resurrection bit. Where or how she will show up, I haven't got a clue, but I'm willing to stick it out for the rest of the season to see. If they don't bring her back, don't know for sure what I will do because that relationship was my prime reason for watching the show.

As for the rest of the show, I agree with those who stated the two different storylines seemed out of sink. They were too polar opposites to try to mesh together. I think that it would have been okay to have the rest of the gang trying to hold together the sanctuary while Helen figured things out. But, I think it would have flowed better if it would have shown them having a difficult time at doing that---emotionally. Seemed like they just jumped back on the saddle too quickly which sent my senses reeling everytime they switched scenes. To be honest, I think it took away some from the impact of Ashley 'being dead' in the end. I found it strange that we didn't see much intereaction between the groups the whole show and then at the end they threw everyone together for what seemed to me a very weak memorial.

For once, I did like Will in this episode. Thought he did a nice job trying to be the neutral, clear headed one between he and Helen, but then having a difficult time keeping it together by not wanting to tell Helen she was just grasping at straws. For the first time, since the show began last year, I believed his character.

Loved the Druitt and Helen scenes. Anyone else think all this revenge combined with the teleporting is going to be what eventually throws Druitt back to being the bad guy?...seems like he's heading that way. It was difficult separating what was grief from what he has always been, a killer.

Lastly, sorry for the book here, still don't like Kate. The way they are trying to parallel her character with Ashley's last season is probably what is doing it for me. She has that similar smart-aleck bad-ass attitude. Plus, I thought it very coincidental that her first time out on a mission was down under the streets and the first time we saw Ashley last season was tracking someone..... down under the streets...coincidence (I think not)

P-90_177
October 24th, 2009, 02:16 PM
Lastly, sorry for the book here, still don't like Kate. The way they are trying to parallel her character with Ashley's last season is probably what is doing it for me. She has that similar smart-aleck bad-ass attitude. Plus, I thought it very coincidental that her first time out on a mission was down under the streets and the first time we saw Ashley last season was tracking someone..... down under the streets...coincidence (I think not)

Additionally Ashley had a pet Nubbin..........Kate has a pet killer dog.........for the record I reckon Kates is the much cooler pet. :P

Inward Wind
October 24th, 2009, 02:22 PM
Additionally Ashley had a pet Nubbin..........Kate has a pet killer dog.........for the record I reckon Kates is the much cooler pet. :P

Yes, I remember thinking that, too when I watched it. Forgot all about it though until you said something

Amalthea
October 24th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Ok, it's almost been a day and I'm still upset thinking about that last scene!!

I do think there are plenty of ways to bring Ashley back (if they want to/are able to) and I would bet none of us can guess how they will do it. I think it would be good if they do bring her back, if for no other reason than to be able to stop Druitt from the downward spiral I think he is heading on. Helen at least has her work, all John has is vengeance.

P-90_177
October 24th, 2009, 02:44 PM
To be honest I think if they did bring ashley back it'd be cool if she was some sort of apparition. I mean with all of the abnormals out there you can imainge that perhaps Ghosts are there too........I mean come on..........They have Fairys even.

jckfan55
October 24th, 2009, 02:46 PM
i am sad. :(

i'm not even sure what i think of the ep as a whole. while i think we 'needed' a release of the tension of helen hunting for ashley, i thought some of the creature stuff was sillish. and i wanted to bop kate a time or two.

but the meat of the ep was helen... amanda really is an amazing actress. she's always been able to convey *so* much with just a look on her face, especially her eyes...

i asked rocky to tell me if ash was alive, dead, or something else, and he told me dead. (that's the only spoiler i asked of him). so i built of this melancholy feeling till by the end of the ep, my throat hurt. it's left me very sad.

i really, really hope ashley's not dead. helen didn't 'feel' it, so...

while i love seeing amanda act her butt off, this storyline is something i hate. i adore mother/daughter relationships, and this one barely had a chance to shine. there was still SO much to show! :(

so maybe, somewhere, someday, ashley will come back...

(((helen and ashley)))


quick side note: mom came in to talk about amanda. she gushed. amanda, you're amazing. :samanime51:

Yes, I agree we needed another story as a relief valve from the Ashley search, but I could have done with a bit less of Kate. She still annoys me. ETA: oh and I agree with the person who said there should have been more sense of the loss of Ashley by the rest of the Sanctuary before the funeral scene. I know they were sort of dealing with a crisis, but I would have expected Will and Henry or Henry & BF to *mention* Ashley. Even something like Henry saying "wish we had Ash on this" ...

I *refuse* to believe Ashley's gone for good. I take as my comfort that as you say, Helen seemed to believe she was somehow alive even after she called the memorial service. (of course it seemed pretty final at the funeral...but I'm in denial.) Also, didn't Helen stop her search outside the Sanctuary when she got the idea that she could have been dropped inside the Sanctuary? She was operating on little sleep--she might have missed something. (hopes)

AT was great again. I had thought Helen would lock herself in her room in mourning, but being locked in her room doing a desperate scientific search was more in character than sitting in a dark room would have been, I think. I liked that Will had to try to get past protective Bigfoot to check on her. Her seeing Ashley various times was heartbreaking & I did get choked up at the very end when Helen has her moment alone.

So she's sort of accepted it, but I wonder now, how Helen's going to cope. I sure hope things aren't business as usual as the preview would imply.

Besides the necklace being a symbolic guide for Ashley, I'm hoping there's some mystical thing that figures into bringing her back.

I really want to see more Helen-Ashley.

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:08 PM
i loved the dichotomy of helen - we must pick up and move on - vs john - we mus take our vengeance and make them pay.

absolutely. very different ways of dealing with loss. i'd imagine helen's *way* better at it than john (he prob didn't care during his dark years), but helen's become an expert at it... until now.

i soooo hope helen's grieving isn't swept under the rug, b/c ppl can't do that so easily (like they've done on sg1) in real life. and having it be your child... maybe if she had another to latch onto, but...

i can't imagine how alone she'll feel. everything she sees she'll think of ashley. the entire sanctuary will be a giant memory book of ashley for her.

a parent doesn't get over losing a child. ever.

(it doesn't need to be dwelled on constantly, but it does need to be shown.)


i still think ash will show up, but not until the end of the season.

i hope so.

this storyline's been the best thing to ever happen for the ashley character, but i can't stand the idea of helen having to know the loss of a child.

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Well the only place Helen did not look was in her self, may be they somehow joined together. She looked everywhere else.

I just do not see her as being able to leave the Sanctuary without the security alarms going off.


VERY interesting... :)

jckfan55
October 24th, 2009, 03:20 PM
i can't imagine how alone she'll feel. everything she sees she'll think of ashley. the entire sanctuary will be a giant memory book of ashley for her.

a parent doesn't get over losing a child. ever.

(it doesn't need to be dwelled on constantly, but it does need to be shown.)




It must feel to Helen like she's barely had her in her life--just a blink. I think any parent would feel that way--but especially with Helen's own long life.

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:22 PM
Part of it is that (while I love the guy) I don't subscribe to MW's theory that you have to kill off characters to keep jeopardy alive. First, I don't buy that because regardless of how many other people they kill off we know they'll never do it to Helen so there is no real jeopardy to her.

i don't know about that... it's my greatest fear is that they'll have helen's ultimate release from the curse of long life... be her death. (like they did with xena!!! :mad:)

so if martin and damian are death happy... :S

(and this death happy scenario is what's keeping from really caring about any of the characters on 'sgu'. i'm afraid to)


Second, if I like a character I want to continue to see them. I don't watch this show for the visual effects or because they use the red camera. I watch it out of loyality to the cast and crew and because I love the characters. In addition, as others have said, if "no one really dies in scifi" it again makes the jeopardy argument moot.

exactly. i watch, or stick with, a show b/c i fall for the characters. i already love helen, and i have feelings for the others... i could just watch helen sitting at her desk for an hour :p


I liked the fact we had a mother/daughter relationship on this show.

totally, completely YES!

(we really need some sanctuary smileys :p)

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:26 PM
do you think, if helen had ashley's dna, she might clone her? i mean, she has the knowledge and capabilities to, but 'would she' do something like this, out of grief?

jckfan55
October 24th, 2009, 03:27 PM
exactly. i watch, or stick with, a show b/c i fall for the characters. i already love helen, and i have feelings for the others... i could just watch helen sitting at her desk for an hour :p


Preview:
Next time on Sanctuary: Magnus gets a paper cut!

:D But I know exactly what you mean. I really care about what happens to Helen.

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:33 PM
i wonder if helen thinks of henry a bit as her child?... she raised him from a child...

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:39 PM
I have to say as well that I really liked Will in this ep as well. The way he kinda started off being worried about Magnus to cautiously hopeful about ashley then realising that Magnus is just in complete denial. I loved the way he yelled at her once he finally reached breaking point with her theories.

i agree with all of this.

that scene, when he yelled at her... the camera showed helen's face, and her startled, jumping reaction... GREAT work of the camera there, and HELEN!... (((helen)))

i loved what she said to wil (paraphrasing here) that she needed him to tell her the truth, to keep her grounded. well, he did... but then he kind of backed off, because he didn't want to hurt her anymore than she already was.

i like the helen-wil relationship. :)

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:44 PM
Definately not the ending I had hoped for, but really think they left the door wide open for Ashley to show up at some point. I don't agree with the argument that she is dead don't bring her back. Mainly because I don't think it has been confirmed...no body. If they had that, I would be more inclined to agree not to pull the resurrection bit. Where or how she will show up, I haven't got a clue, but I'm willing to stick it out for the rest of the season to see. If they don't bring her back, don't know for sure what I will do because that relationship was my prime reason for watching the show.

i got really scared when they found the body in the wall. i was thinking, don't let that be ashley!, but more out of helen having to see her child like that. :(


Loved the Druitt and Helen scenes.

they work wonderfully well off one another! i'm not a shipper of them, but two such strong actors together... yeah. :)

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Ok, it's almost been a day and I'm still upset thinking about that last scene!!

I do think there are plenty of ways to bring Ashley back (if they want to/are able to) and I would bet none of us can guess how they will do it. I think it would be good if they do bring her back, if for no other reason than to be able to stop Druitt from the downward spiral I think he is heading on. Helen at least has her work, all John has is vengeance.

spoiler for another ep coming up - (don't peak under tags if you don't want something spoiled)

in an upcoming ep, helen goes a bit crazy... i wonder if her grief has any baring on this?

majorsal
October 24th, 2009, 03:55 PM
Her seeing Ashley various times was heartbreaking & I did get choked up at the very end when Helen has her moment alone.


*very* heartbreaking. :(

there was a cap of ash sitting in helen's office, glancing over to her... i can't remember where this cap is, but i was going with the idea that ash might be invisible there :p... but was that cap actually in the ep?

RiaDejaVu
October 24th, 2009, 05:00 PM
Lots of great points made.

I think the only good thing related to Kate was BigFoot smacking her in the head. That girl is ruining the show for me. I'm going to hang in there though and hope they all prove me wrong - quickly!

I too think Ashley is somewhere - she has to be! The plot is wide open for her to return in some way - I'm really hoping so at least!

Rocky89
October 24th, 2009, 05:40 PM
OK, I'm finally here to write my review. :)

Wow, I'm really impressed, I don't know what I Can say that hasn't already been said. :D

I was very impressed with all the cast this week, they gave it they're all and the show how great the can play their roles. :) I loved the Helen and Druitt scenes, this was the first I've seen them in a new perspective, as grieving parents and I think they acted very well. In some way I can understand John's pain in wanting revenge, and I think he was right about Helen deep down wanting him to kill the women who did that to Ashley.

I think Kate was able to stop up a bit and show that she can be useful to them and actually contribute. And I like the scenes with her, Henry and Bigfoot, and I think that little fairy dude was kinda cool. For a while I thought he was MW. :P

And now good old Helen (mind the pun :D). Amanda played her role to a T, you could see how desperate Helen was to hang onto Ashley, and believe she was still alive, but at the same time she knew she needed to be realistic so she needed Will to keep her from going on a wild goose chase. I don't know what I would have done if I were Will and I can see how hard it must have been for him, wanting to support Helen but keep reminding her Ashley could be gone. I also liked their little chat about death, and hearing what Helen thinks of miracles. I think Amanda believes in miracles though.

I felt of Helen so much, I can't imagine the hurt she felt saying good-bye to Ashley, as a mom she wants to believe she'd never loose her, but Helen always knew being who she is she'd most likely outlive Ashley. I think in her heart the day she'd have to say good-bye to Ashley would come, but she probably didn't think it would happen so soon, perhaps if she just died it would have been easier, but the Cabal took Ashley away from them a piece at a time. :(

Overall it was a great episode, and from what I've read Amanda brought a few tears to people's eyes, and I'm still eager to see what more we see next. :) Oh, and after seeing just these first 3 episodes of the season, I can say if Amanda and/or the rest of the cast don't get any awards for any of these episodes, or any episode these season, I will be TOTTALY shocked. :eek::P

the fifth man
October 24th, 2009, 06:03 PM
What an episode this one was. It had a bit of everything in it - comedy, drama, etc. It was very sad to say goodbye to Ashley (at least for now). I really hope she returns at some point. That ending with John left me smiling ear to ear.

Rocky89
October 24th, 2009, 06:17 PM
a really good eps

helen's desperation was almost painful to watch. although, you know, i did laugh at the 'she's in the pattern buffer' bit

As soon as Helen said that, I thought of when Teal'c was trapped in the gate in 48 hours. :P



kate...is ok when she's with henry and he's snarking right back. bit OTT when folks just roll thier eyes at her. But i think she'll tone down a bit

i LOVED the '20 boxes? i have loads of boxes' bit. just downright humorous

it was and odd blend of comedy, humor, pathos and desperation and it worked. one kept the other from being too much

and i LOVED, LOVED, LOVED that john is going after dana

go ripper go



I hope John "plays" with her a little before he drops her off a bridge or something equally horrible. That's so wrong of me, but I hate her for what she did!

I just came up with a theory about that, after reading these comments on John wanting to kill her, what if he does and *that's* the murder Helen's accused of? :eek:

Ian-S
October 24th, 2009, 06:30 PM
so we had HeadAshley in this episode :lol:

The entire cast and crew deserve some major awards for this, it's amazing TV.

and yeah, go ripper go :D

badwolfSG
October 24th, 2009, 06:49 PM
[QUOTE=Skydiver;10741153]i can go with the:

bounced out, memory foggy, runs out of fear and doesn't know who she is

theory

QUOTE]

HA, I love the idea but I always love when show use amnesia to bring back a character that was once thought dead!!!!

shel
October 24th, 2009, 06:57 PM
Oh, and after seeing just these first 3 episodes of the season, I can say if Amanda and/or the rest of the cast don't get any awards for any of these episodes, or any episode these season, I will be TOTTALY shocked. :eek::P

:indeed: I agree! Amanda and the cast did some amazing acting here, and just from these first three episodes it's easy to tell it's going to get better. I to would be shocked if they don't get any awards. Hope they do... they so deserve it!:)

Mack_1
October 24th, 2009, 08:19 PM
ann_sgcfan
Anyone else think Dana is setting up John? John has killed several Cabal operatives over the last 6 days, between the episodes ... so would Dana really be drinking coffee/tea without a care in the world alone in a city? She has been portrayed to be very strategic in her planning... I'm guessing Dana knew John was looking for her and she was waiting for him.

I totally think she was, like you say she was just to comfortable for her own liking, she knew the Cabal was been targeted and been wipe clean and here she was without a worry? I don’t buy that, she had something planed.



DigiFluid
I'm not always big on flashbacks as a story means, but the Helen historical flashbacks were really, really cool. I'm not totally clear on what they meant, but they were good. The rapport between Helen and Will was terrific too, a real credit to either their acting skills, their real-life personal relationship, or most probably both.
To me they represented the different states Helen was going through while searching desperate for Ashley and not finding her, she keep looking and reaching another dead end until she saw reality Ashley is gone; she could rest now; her search until that moment had ended; Helen leaving that necklace on Ashley’s coffin was symbolic in a way, as if it should guide Ashley back to her.


Something I found a bit illogical....why were they trying to use those lasso things to try to capture the slimy little bugger in the Sanctuary? That just doesn't make any sense to me. Why not a net? Or a bucket?
Totally on the mark, that’s what I thought to a net was way better than the “dog” catcher pole.


P-90_177
I have to say as well that I really liked Will in this ep as well. The way he kinda started off being worried about Magnus to cautiously hopeful about ashley then realising that Magnus is just in complete denial. I loved the way he yelled at her once he finally reached breaking point with her theories.

That was awesome, the way Helen reacted to his yelling and Will backing away again to give her what she needed was really good acting, all the scenes with them together were so real and good Will did really fine here.


Rocky89
I felt of Helen so much, I can't imagine the hurt she felt saying good-bye to Ashley, as a mom she wants to believe she'd never loose her, but Helen always knew being who she is she'd most likely outlive Ashley. I think in her heart the day she'd have to say good-bye to Ashley would come, but she probably didn't think it would happen so soon, perhaps if she just died it would have been easier, but the Cabal took Ashley away from them a piece at a time.

Yeap, that’s how I think she felt, when she say “I’m sorry” at the end she was blaming herself for what happen to Ashley; Helen knew that she would lose her daughter with time only she wasn’t prepared for Ashley leaving her so soon and because someone that was after her; she feels responsible and that has to have an effect in her.



Overall it was a great episode, and from what I've read Amanda brought a few tears to people's eyes, and I'm still eager to see what more we see next. Oh, and after seeing just these first 3 episodes of the season, I can say if Amanda and/or the rest of the cast don't get any awards for any of these episodes, or any episode these season, I will be TOTTALY shocked.
I do hope they do get nominated for some awards and win them, AT has have 3 extraordinary episodes, as the rest pf the characters.

On a final note, I read some reviewers commenting on the lack of feelings or showing emotion after losing Ashley, tome they were doing what they were suppose to do by supporting their boss, is been 6 days after Ashley’s been taken from them and the Sanctuary needs to keep on.

Big Guy was overprotecting of Helen, Will taking charge at first ant then supporting Helen in her search; you can see Henri’s face when he tells Kate she is good in her craft, look closely and you see his face contort a little and his eyes look like he wants’ to cry and that final scene was perfect, they all had days to think and deal a little with their felings but still that final scene was so good.

Mm..next chapter I don’t know who I feel about that one but as someone said, I watch a show because I admired the actors that played in them so AT and Com. I’ll be there all the way.:sam:

Rocky89
October 24th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Not really spoilery, but just in case.

10 to 1 that she isn't in the intro next week.

The first pod cast they mentioned that it was their 'old credits', so I think there will be 'new credits' that will include Ryan and Agam.


AWESOME episode! I was surprised that the different tones in the show worked together. And I found myself hating Kate just a little less this week. Still don't love her, but it's nice to despise her less.

Regarding Ashley being seen in the credits...that could change. I think a friend who was a die-hard Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan once told me that not only did a character get killed off and the credits changed the following week - but the actress finally got her billing bumped up for the episode where her character was killed off in. How's that for harsh?


Again, I agree.

As much as I love the show and have been anxiously awaiting season 2 and as much as I have liked the episodes and loved the performances, something has been nagging at me so far this season. I realised it was the impending and now apparent doom of Ashley. To be prefectly honest, that has diminished my enjoyment of the season so far.

I'll admit part of it is having met EU. She is such a nice young lady and acting is a tough way to make a living so I want her to continue to be employed in a regular gig.

Part of it is that (while I love the guy) I don't subscribe to MW's theory that you have to kill off characters to keep jeopardy alive. First, I don't buy that because regardless of how many other people they kill off we know they'll never do it to Helen so there is no real jeopardy to her. Second, if I like a character I want to continue to see them. I don't watch this show for the visual effects or because they use the red camera. I watch it out of loyality to the cast and crew and because I love the characters. In addition, as others have said, if "no one really dies in scifi" it again makes the jeopardy argument moot.

I liked the fact we had a mother/daughter relationship on this show. I thought it held great potential. I also thought there was a wonderful opportunity to explore the relationship between John and Ashley. The storyline of using Ashley as a Cabal "weapon" was brilliant and I think it opens up great potential for Ashley to deal with what was done to her and what she did while under the Cabal's control. That potential is wasted if she is dead. I hope that is not the case.

Again, I have to go back to the Daniel Jackson thing, MS wasn't credited in the intro in S6 of SG-1, but he still came back the next season. It's funny because Corin Nemec was listed as a main cast member in S6, but was taken out when MS came back. I know lots of fans missed Daniel, and wanted Jonas to go, but by the start of S7 when MS came back, I'm sure lots of fans missed Jonas and wished he had stayed, because they had gotten used to him. That could happen again with Sanctuary, fans will miss Ashley, want Kate gone and if EU comes back next season, anything could happen. Kate could go, Ashley come back, or they both stay, but I'm sure by then Kate will have some fans.

Oh and other example, Leonard Nimoy in Star Trek 3, he wasn't in the opening credits, but still in the movie, for like 5 minutes :D. But he was back again in the next movie, so you see, dead isn't really dead in Syfy world, and look at Supernatural for another example.


just saw the episode, and I can not get my head the last scene ... was so strong .. I cried ... AT really knows how to touch the hearts of people ....
was ... I have no words really a special episode ...
I think ashley is alive somewhere .. but we have to wait and see ...
Amanda Tapping congratulations performance in 1000.

you're the best actress in drama, without a doubt


other well represented ... liked to see that John is more accessible, more human ..

"You are my life" Oh broke my heart...

I know, that last scene with them was so special, Amanda can make people cry without evn trying. :):(


i am sad. :(

i'm not even sure what i think of the ep as a whole. while i think we 'needed' a release of the tension of helen hunting for ashley, i thought some of the creature stuff was sillish. and i wanted to bop kate a time or two.

but the meat of the ep was helen... amanda really is an amazing actress. she's always been able to convey *so* much with just a look on her face, especially her eyes...

i asked rocky to tell me if ash was alive, dead, or something else, and he told me dead. (that's the only spoiler i asked of him). so i built of this melancholy feeling till by the end of the ep, my throat hurt. it's left me very sad.

i really, really hope ashley's not dead. helen didn't 'feel' it, so...

while i love seeing amanda act her butt off, this storyline is something i hate. i adore mother/daughter relationships, and this one barely had a chance to shine. there was still SO much to show!

so maybe, somewhere, someday, ashley will come back...

(((helen and ashley)))


quick side note: mom came in to talk about amanda. she gushed. amanda, you're amazing. :samanime51:

:) Sally, has there ever been a time when you said anything negative about Amanda? :D

I think I'm, or we're all being a little like Helen wanting Ashley to still be around somewhere, and she could be, but we won't know until a bit later. I'm sorry you and your mom were hurt yet again Sally, and this episode left yet another pain in your throat :(, but at least we got to see more of Helen's feelings towards Ashley. :)

I like to think that Amanda uses her own mommy feelings/emotions to help her with these scenes, it makes sense IMO. :)


i loved the dichotomy of helen - we must pick up and move on - vs john - we mus take our vengeance and make them pay.

i still think ash will show up, but not until the end of the season.

Kate....kate is annoying. That said, Henry is good at toning her down so i hope they pair the two of them up a lot. she needs to be called on the carpet not patronized. I can't wait to see helen tearing into her :)

she's been a bit distracted until now but that will change next week i think.

I kinda like kate, I see her a little like Jonas and Vala, because they both semi replace Sam and Daniel for a while on SG-1, but they both had to earn their place on the show, and I hope Kate can do that. If Ashley does come back, then I kinda hope they both can stay, either as rivals or friends.


i don't know about that... it's my greatest fear is that they'll have helen's ultimate release from the curse of long life... be her death. (like they did with xena!!! :mad:)

so if martin and damian are death happy... :S

Sally don't say that. :( I don't want to see my Helen dead. :(


(and this death happy scenario is what's keeping from really caring about any of the characters on 'sgu'. i'm afraid to)

exactly. i watch, or stick with, a show b/c i fall for the characters. i already love helen, and i have feelings for the others... i could just watch helen sitting at her desk for an hour :p

Helen lover. :D


(we really need some sanctuary smileys :p)

There are some Sanctuary smileys, just not listed on GW. http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Rocky89_03/NewHelen-2.gif http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp337/Rocky89_03/Helen_claps-4.gif

Rocky89
October 24th, 2009, 08:31 PM
i got really scared when they found the body in the wall. i was thinking, don't let that be ashley!, but more out of helen having to see her child like that. :(

they work wonderfully well off one another! i'm not a shipper of them, but two such strong actors together... yeah. :)

There 2 things you should think about when you watch that scene.

1. The fact that wasn't Ashley in the wall gives hope to the fans and Helen that she isn't dead and could come back.

2. If it was Ashley in the wall, we would have less hope she'd be back, and so would Helen. Also, if that was her, it may have given Helen a bit more closure in knowing for sure if her daughter was dead or not, that would have given Helen a definite answer.

So I think that the book is still open and until we know more, there's a chance she could come back. :)

Rocky89
October 24th, 2009, 08:42 PM
:indeed: I agree! Amanda and the cast did some amazing acting here, and just from these first three episodes it's easy to tell it's going to get better. I to would be shocked if they don't get any awards. Hope they do... they so deserve it!:)

Amanda won a Leo and is nominated for a Gemini, both for Requiem. And I could easily see her getting some kind of nom just from something from these first 3 episodes alone. :)

AresLover452
October 24th, 2009, 11:44 PM
I hope John "plays" with her a little before he drops her off a bridge or something equally horrible. That's so wrong of me, but I hate her for what she did!




Or John could teleport Dana to the top of the Eiffel Tower and leave her hanging by her underpants..... curtsy of Ashley.

kes
October 25th, 2009, 02:36 AM
I just thought of something, wouldnt have been beautiful if Druitt had dropped by to leave a gift in Ash's coffin? how about Dana's head LOL

Picture this, Magnus is alone, Druitt ports in with the head in is hand, covered in blood and*drop head in coffin :D

Too much? LOL

helenmagnus23
October 25th, 2009, 04:15 AM
I have seen a few scene's from the eps and i can say i was in tear's i still am i found it so hard to watch them seeing Helen hurting so much AT does an awsome job in the word's of the comic book guy :BEST PERFORMACE EVER:( i loved seeing John watching waiting for the right time to attack Dana very cool revenge by the Ripper sweet :)

I hope Ash is alive somewhere and i really hope it isnt a permnent good bye becase Ash/EU rock's you need Ash bagin the bad guy's and if she comes back with the gift's she has minus the mind control well the cabal will have no safe to hide .

meredithchandler73
October 25th, 2009, 04:30 AM
I'm not always big on flashbacks as a story means, but the Helen historical flashbacks were really, really cool. I'm not totally clear on what they meant, but they were good. The rapport between Helen and Will was terrific too, a real credit to either their acting skills, their real-life personal relationship, or most probably both.

I was trying to read through all the posts and I didn't see many people refer to the historical flashbacks. The very first with Druitt wasn't a flashback, of course, it was one a daydream Helen has of Ashley being alive. But the stuff in the desert - all those flashbacks were of Helen returning the remains of the last shaman of that tribe (who apparently live in a place that doesn't exist - sorta like Brigadoon or something?). The man said they had been waiting for his return for 300 years and can now finally be at peace. Perhaps Helen is thinking about what will it take and/or how long it will take for her to be at peace with the loss of Ashley. And then, of course, the bracelet they give her to help her with the dark times/places (can't remember which at the moment). Helen would turn to that talisman in her darkest hour. I didn't have a clue where those desert flashbacks were going or how they would tie into everything, but after seeing them all, I thought it all fit so perfectly.

Skydiver
October 25th, 2009, 04:40 AM
ah yes, the lack of a net. I thought the same thing, use nets to catch the little beggers please

I don't mind Kate joining the show. I do kinda mind her character's actions. But time will tell if she tones down and fits in a bit or if she continues to stick out like a sore thumb

DigiFluid
October 25th, 2009, 04:47 AM
I was trying to read through all the posts and I didn't see many people refer to the historical flashbacks. The very first with Druitt wasn't a flashback, of course, it was one a daydream Helen has of Ashley being alive. But the stuff in the desert - all those flashbacks were of Helen returning the remains of the last shaman of that tribe (who apparently live in a place that doesn't exist - sorta like Brigadoon or something?). The man said they had been waiting for his return for 300 years and can now finally be at peace. Perhaps Helen is thinking about what will it take and/or how long it will take for her to be at peace with the loss of Ashley. And then, of course, the bracelet they give her to help her with the dark times/places (can't remember which at the moment). Helen would turn to that talisman in her darkest hour. I didn't have a clue where those desert flashbacks were going or how they would tie into everything, but after seeing them all, I thought it all fit so perfectly.
That's a nice interpretation/way of looking at things. I like it.

WishIwasJoes
October 25th, 2009, 06:32 AM
After watching this episode I was very impressed with CH. He is really above Tv acting as far as I am concerned. He has such pain in hes eyes when he talks about the way Ashley was taken from them. Its not just that he is saying his lines with a sad face, he is feeling them somewhere deep in his soul. Bravo.

I was a bit annoyed that we did not get to see the revenge that Tesla and John were taking out on the Cabal. And as far as Dana was concerned, they said she was a fugitive but why? The public has no idea what she tried to do and she looked comfy to me sipping her tea. Yes john was there to stalk her but as far as the writing goes so far goes maybe thats what she wanted??

I was also really impressed with the actor that plays Will. He did a great job backing AT up. He was so torn between the "truth" and trying to support a friend.

EU was so great at the end of the show. We saw a side of Ashely we never got to see. Soft, very real and not so hot headed. Losing a child before you is so unatural. It goes again the normal flow of the world. I was a tad dissapointed that Helen did not want to seek some blood on her own. Her character bounces from voilent while searching for Ashley in epsiodes 1 to a wierd calm as she orders her memorial. She skipped the 7 steps of grief!!

Also Henry and the big guy knew ashely since she was a kid. I felt emmtions there were lacking as well but I guess its so the show can plow ahead and we can all move on. :(

I am still hoping she comes back. Not warming up to Kate at all. I am trying but she does not fit well into the show. Her lines and delivery are not in step with the rest of the cast. This maybe ironed out as the show moves foward. Time will tell.

DigiFluid
October 25th, 2009, 06:36 AM
I was a bit annoyed that we did not get to see the revenge that Tesla and John were taking out on the Cabal. And as far as Dana was concerned, they said she was a fugitive but why? The public has no idea what she tried to do and she looked comfy to me sipping her tea. Yes john was there to stalk her but as far as the writing goes so far goes maybe thats what she wanted??
From what I understood, the two of them are out there mercilessly butchering and destroying all parts of the Cabal; making her want to keep her head down and maintain a low profile. I took it as her being a fugitive from Druitt/Tesla Execution Squad.

WishIwasJoes
October 25th, 2009, 06:46 AM
Ahh ok that made more sense. I though John meant from the law. But I guess he sees himself as the law right now! :jack:

Amalthea
October 25th, 2009, 08:58 AM
Or John could teleport Dana to the top of the Eiffel Tower and leave her hanging by her underpants..... curtsy of Ashley.

Ooh, now there's an idea. Or that tower in Dubai! Now that's a long time to think about your mistakes on the way down.

As an aside, I'm amused at how bloodthirsty we've become against Dana. Totally deserved, mind you, but it's interesting. I think it shows how much we love/appreciate the show/characters.

AresLover452
October 25th, 2009, 08:59 AM
Ahh ok that made more sense. I though John meant from the law. But I guess he sees himself as the law right now! :jack:


I would too. The woman responsible for turning his child into a monster wouldn't even get a slap on the writ from the Law, so essentially he is a law unto himself. He is revenge, he is justice for the child he lost and the child he barely knew.

RealmOfX
October 25th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Ahh ok that made more sense. I though John meant from the law. But I guess he sees himself as the law right now! :jack:

A fugitive literally means one who is fleeing, though it is commonly used in reference to people fleeing the law, the law is not the only thing you can be fleeing from. Also when used as an adjective it has even more varied connotations.

dosed150
October 25th, 2009, 10:50 AM
well helen does seem to have a lot of influence with intelligence agencies so you never know they could be after dana as well

EvenstarSRV
October 25th, 2009, 12:02 PM
I was trying to read through all the posts and I didn't see many people refer to the historical flashbacks. The very first with Druitt wasn't a flashback, of course, it was one a daydream Helen has of Ashley being alive. But the stuff in the desert - all those flashbacks were of Helen returning the remains of the last shaman of that tribe (who apparently live in a place that doesn't exist - sorta like Brigadoon or something?). The man said they had been waiting for his return for 300 years and can now finally be at peace. Perhaps Helen is thinking about what will it take and/or how long it will take for her to be at peace with the loss of Ashley. And then, of course, the bracelet they give her to help her with the dark times/places (can't remember which at the moment). Helen would turn to that talisman in her darkest hour. I didn't have a clue where those desert flashbacks were going or how they would tie into everything, but after seeing them all, I thought it all fit so perfectly.

Nice thoughts on those desert scenes. When the man gave Helen the necklace, he said something like 'may this be a guide for you in dark times, to help you see the light.' And I think it was kinda implied by Helen putting that necklace in Ashley's coffin that she'd given it to Ashley, maybe because Ashley was also someone who helped Helen through the dark times of her long life.

I thought the first hallucination with Druitt was also really interesting, since it was the old Druitt before he turned evil, but with a modern/normal Ashley. Kinda like Helen was imaging the family she wanted but now can never have. :(

It was also rather interesting that the two times we've seen Helen doze off or sleep (here and in Kush) she ends up hallucinating about people she thinks are dead. No wonder the poor woman doesn't sleep much.

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 04:28 PM
I was trying to read through all the posts and I didn't see many people refer to the historical flashbacks. The very first with Druitt wasn't a flashback, of course, it was one a daydream Helen has of Ashley being alive. But the stuff in the desert - all those flashbacks were of Helen returning the remains of the last shaman of that tribe (who apparently live in a place that doesn't exist - sorta like Brigadoon or something?). The man said they had been waiting for his return for 300 years and can now finally be at peace. Perhaps Helen is thinking about what will it take and/or how long it will take for her to be at peace with the loss of Ashley. And then, of course, the bracelet they give her to help her with the dark times/places (can't remember which at the moment). Helen would turn to that talisman in her darkest hour. I didn't have a clue where those desert flashbacks were going or how they would tie into everything, but after seeing them all, I thought it all fit so perfectly.

thank you. :)

i'm planning on watching this ep again (i know, duh :p), but i was hoping someone would cover this part of the ep.

i don't think helen's *truly* given in to the idea that ashley's gone. does anyone else?

and what do others think this part of the ep was trying to convey?

Puddle-Jumper
October 25th, 2009, 04:30 PM
Anyone actually know why she was killed off? Was it a creative choice or wha?

Inward Wind
October 25th, 2009, 04:37 PM
thank you. :)

i'm planning on watching this ep again (i know, duh :p), but i was hoping someone would cover this part of the ep.

i don't think helen's *truly* given in to the idea that ashley's gone. does anyone else?

and what do others think this part of the ep was trying to convey?


No, I don't think Helen has given into the idea that Ashley is gone. She says so when she tells John right before the memorial that "all of her senses tell her that Ashley is still alive somewhere". This tells me Ashley will be back. After all, a mother can sense these things can't she :)

EvenstarSRV
October 25th, 2009, 04:40 PM
thank you. :)

i'm planning on watching this ep again (i know, duh :p), but i was hoping someone would cover this part of the ep.

i don't think helen's *truly* given in to the idea that ashley's gone. does anyone else?

and what do others think this part of the ep was trying to convey?

I'm thinking that Helen won't really be at peace with Ashley's death until she finds or receives some physical proof of it, like that Indian tribe was able to do once Helen brought them the remains of their last shaman.

She'll be able to continue her work and 'let go' to an extent, but she won't really be at peace with it until she can emotionally as well as mentally accept that Ashley is gone.

WishIwasJoes
October 25th, 2009, 04:57 PM
I'm thinking that Helen won't really be at peace with Ashley's death until she finds or receives some physical proof of it, like that Indian tribe was able to do once Helen brought them the remains of their last shaman.

She'll be able to continue her work and 'let go' to an extent, but she won't really be at peace with it until she can emotionally as well as mentally accept that Ashley is gone.


Good point. I thought the whole desert thing was meaning that she was seeking something that was not there. And I was afraid that was what Ashely was as well. Something that is gone forever.

However she does find the place she is looking for so I am hoping she will one day find Ashely alive and whole again. :sam:

Skydiver
October 25th, 2009, 06:35 PM
or was it a flashback, some time when she sought something that wasn't there...only to find that, yeah, it is. a way to give her hope for ashley.

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 06:44 PM
No, I don't think Helen has given into the idea that Ashley is gone. She says so when she tells John right before the memorial that "all of her senses tell her that Ashley is still alive somewhere". This tells me Ashley will be back. After all, a mother can sense these things can't she :)

*hopes*

:)

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 06:45 PM
I'm thinking that Helen won't really be at peace with Ashley's death until she finds or receives some physical proof of it, like that Indian tribe was able to do once Helen brought them the remains of their last shaman.

She'll be able to continue her work and 'let go' to an extent, but she won't really be at peace with it until she can emotionally as well as mentally accept that Ashley is gone.

;)

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 06:47 PM
or was it a flashback, some time when she sought something that wasn't there...only to find that, yeah, it is. a way to give her hope for ashley.

you guys are giving me hope! :D

~mother and daughter~

Skydiver
October 25th, 2009, 06:48 PM
the whole 'after 300 years we can finally rest' bit....helen will NEVER believe that ash is dead until she sees a body

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 07:30 PM
here's a question. (i know i've brought this up before)

how would anyone feel if ashley was brought back, but as a child?

AresLover452
October 25th, 2009, 07:47 PM
the whole 'after 300 years we can finally rest' bit....helen will NEVER believe that ash is dead until she sees a body


Of course not she is a mother and all of her maternal instincts are screaming at her that her child, her flesh and blood, is still alive. Personally I believe Ashley is still kicking somewhere. I like the whole she got out of the EM shield thing myself... they believe in the unbelievable so why can't Ashley be alive somewhere?

suse
October 25th, 2009, 08:39 PM
here's a question. (i know i've brought this up before)

how would anyone feel if ashley was brought back, but as a child?

No. Just NO! WAYYYYY NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Would it really be Ashley if EU didn't add her part to the mix? Esp if Ashley was truly a child, without the memory of events that shaped her? No.

suse

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 10:11 PM
No. Just NO! WAYYYYY NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

so you're alright with the idea then? :p


Would it really be Ashley if EU didn't add her part to the mix? Esp if Ashley was truly a child, without the memory of events that shaped her? No.

suse

i have this image in my mind, of helen starting over with ashley, but it being a start over for ashley too. and all those wonderful mother/daughter scenes... but this is if they couldn't get emilie back.

but you're right about it not being the same without emilie.

but the images...

majorsal
October 25th, 2009, 10:25 PM
i watched eulogy again. this time on my computer. the quality was outstanding (but still a bit too strong for my little computer to handle). but still, much, much better than watching it on my vcr.

i was able to fastforward through the funny stuff to just the helen, serious stuff. made the impact of what was going on for her even more heartbreaking.

the end was my favorite. the way it was all set up, with the gorgeous but haunting music in the background...

this is the potential i've always seen and wanted with sanctuary. and while i enjoy and squee over some of their visual effects (and i'm one that loves the split screen), it's the characters relationships between one another that is the heart and soul of the show. but amanda... she's the show. as much as i love this show, it's amanda this IS this show. what she's done with helen... there's just some actors that can take certain characters and make them so unique and loved that you could never imagine anyone else being them. there's only one xena, one data, one sam carter, and one helen magnus.

:sam59:

NurseFG
October 26th, 2009, 01:53 AM
This is why i like this show so much such quality acting especially from AT, just the passion that she brings i felt the emotion she was trying to convey
I have never watched a show that has made me feel connected with the characters and upset when they die
This season so far is a 10/10

Inward Wind
October 26th, 2009, 03:52 AM
i watched eulogy again. this time on my computer.

i was able to fastforward through the funny stuff to just the helen, serious stuff. made the impact of what was going on for her even more heartbreaking.

:sam59:

I did the same thing. When I watched it first on t.v., I felt the memorial was very weak and it really didn't affect me at all. I've found that when I watch it and am able to fast forward through the Henry-Kate parts the memorial hits me hard. I cry every time I watch it now. I'm sure they had their reasons for throwing that other storyline in, but, imo, I think it would have had more of an affect if they had left it out.

suse
October 26th, 2009, 06:15 AM
i have this image in my mind, of helen starting over with ashley, but it being a start over for ashley too. and all those wonderful mother/daughter scenes... but this is if they couldn't get emilie back.

but you're right about it not being the same without emilie.

but the images...

Totally not interested in seeing Helen raise a child. It's fine as reference/part of the Sanctuary history, but actually raising? it's not how the show is set up.

It wouldn't be a start over for Ashley. It would be growing up. ;)

I for one do not want to see those adolescent years. Or the little girl years.

Honestly, I love kids, but they don't mix well into this type of show. IMO

EvenstarSRV
October 26th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Of course not she is a mother and all of her maternal instincts are screaming at her that her child, her flesh and blood, is still alive. Personally I believe Ashley is still kicking somewhere. I like the whole she got out of the EM shield thing myself... they believe in the unbelievable so why can't Ashley be alive somewhere?

Heh, good point. :)


I did the same thing. When I watched it first on t.v., I felt the memorial was very weak and it really didn't affect me at all. I've found that when I watch it and am able to fast forward through the Henry-Kate parts the memorial hits me hard. I cry every time I watch it now. I'm sure they had their reasons for throwing that other storyline in, but, imo, I think it would have had more of an affect if they had left it out.

As much as I found the Kate/Henry storyline a bit jarring, I think it helped transition the show away from the heavy angst/drama of the Cabal/Ashley storyline and back to 'business as usual' in the Sanctuary. If the focus had just been on Helen's search for Ashley, then moving on to the next episode, Hero, would be even more jarring, IMO.

prsweety
October 26th, 2009, 08:53 AM
I was wondering the same thing? I hoped to find the answer here but haven't. I did read somewhere that EU injured her tailbone, so maybe she needs time to heal? But again not sure where i read it.....hope to find more legit info somewhere. It's to soon in the Series to be killing off such characters. I really enjoyed the mother/daughter relationship that was growing. I would hate for them to kill Ashley off. I truly believe it would hurt the shows ratings..... just my humble opinion... :)

Skydiver
October 26th, 2009, 10:33 AM
just say no to cute kids on scifi shows :)

AresLover452
October 26th, 2009, 10:56 AM
Heh, good point. :)



It is entirely possible. you can't beat out good old maternal insticts. She feels that her child is alive, so she is going to hold on to that until she finds concrete proof that Ashley is indeed dead.

Spimman
October 26th, 2009, 10:57 AM
I was so waiting for Jack the Ripper to appear right behind the lady and slit her throat, but I guess they're going to draw out that story a little more than that.

sandra-carter
October 26th, 2009, 11:22 AM
There 2 things you should think about when you watch that scene.

1. The fact that wasn't Ashley in the wall gives hope to the fans and Helen that she isn't dead and could come back.

2. If it was Ashley in the wall, we would have less hope she'd be back, and so would Helen. Also, if that was her, it may have given Helen a bit more closure in knowing for sure if her daughter was dead or not, that would have given Helen a definite answer.

So I think that the book is still open and until we know more, there's a chance she could come back. :)


Damien Kindler said the end of season 2 would be a huge cliffhanger , again, I personally think ashley will return ... even if they have not thought to continue with ashley ,after our protests they will think a little better...

helen even let go, I think she will not rest till she sees with her eyes that ashely is really dead, it will be interesting to see how they will bring back ashley

"Nos must amitto vivo en" :love:

jckfan55
October 26th, 2009, 12:03 PM
I did the same thing. When I watched it first on t.v., I felt the memorial was very weak and it really didn't affect me at all. I've found that when I watch it and am able to fast forward through the Henry-Kate parts the memorial hits me hard. I cry every time I watch it now. I'm sure they had their reasons for throwing that other storyline in, but, imo, I think it would have had more of an affect if they had left it out.

interesting. It hit me quite a bit the first time, but I teared up the 2nd time. I sort of read the newspaper through the kate parts. ;)

WishIwasJoes
October 26th, 2009, 12:10 PM
you guys are giving me hope! :D

~mother and daughter~


We are trying!!

WishIwasJoes
October 26th, 2009, 12:15 PM
No. Just NO! WAYYYYY NOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Would it really be Ashley if EU didn't add her part to the mix? Esp if Ashley was truly a child, without the memory of events that shaped her? No.

suse


Wonderful point suse. Nail right on the hammer!

And I join skydiver in saying no to cute kids! :P

AresLover452
October 26th, 2009, 12:15 PM
We are trying!!


Hope is a good thing to have. And we need to have that if we are going to hold on and hope Ashley comes back.

jckfan55
October 26th, 2009, 12:22 PM
Totally not interested in seeing Helen raise a child. It's fine as reference/part of the Sanctuary history, but actually raising? it's not how the show is set up.

It wouldn't be a start over for Ashley. It would be growing up. ;)

I for one do not want to see those adolescent years. Or the little girl years.

Honestly, I love kids, but they don't mix well into this type of show. IMO

yeah, I don't want to have Ash come back as a kid. Now I would love to see a few flashbacks of Helen and Ashley worked into stories, but not a whole Ashley growing up scenario.
I wouldn't mind some kind of amnesia, depending on how it's done. I'm a sucker for amnesia stories. :o

WishIwasJoes
October 26th, 2009, 12:26 PM
yeah, I don't want to have Ash come back as a kid. Now I would love to see a few flashbacks of Helen and Ashley worked into stories, but not a whole Ashley growing up scenario.
I wouldn't mind some kind of amnesia, depending on how it's done. I'm a sucker for amnesia stories. :o


I am a sucker for amnesia stories too. I have no idea why! :lol:
:jack_new15:

AresLover452
October 26th, 2009, 12:44 PM
I would settle for ashley coming back alive!!

Inward Wind
October 26th, 2009, 12:49 PM
just say no to cute kids on scifi shows :)

and cute animals; just ugly kids and ugly animals ;)

I'm with alot of others and really am not a fan of having Ashley grow up on the show. Flashbacks would fine now and then. I think the best part of the mother-daughter relationship is the respect between the two and how they rely on each other in their role of protecting the sanctuary. Yet, there is also those natural concerns that a mother-daughter would have to deal with. If we started Ashley back to when she was a young-in, we would lose the first part of those roles.

DominaTemporis
October 26th, 2009, 01:02 PM
I am a sucker for amnesia stories too. I have no idea why! :lol:
:jack_new15:

ahah, lol. That's funny cause last night I actually had some kind of fantasy/dream (I'd go for the first, because I wasn't entirely asleep) in which Will found Ashley a-la Vala in Memento Mori or Cara in Smallville - if anyone watches the show: she was a waitress called Kate (don't know where the name came from) & Will had to question her over some strange murder, probably at the hands of an abnormal, that happened in California :D

Btw, I know why we love amnesia stories: they always make great storylines for a couple of eps, bring into the show nice explanations/flashbacks & they are full of lovely angsty moments ;)

I'm faithfull Ash is alive... somewhere. I'd be very pissed off if they killed her like that. I mean, the final scene was heartbreakingly perfect, but I don't feel the closure nor satisfied. If you really want to kill a character - and I hope they don't - you have to do something truly great out of it. Like Janet or Carson.

Also, I wouldn't want her to come back as a kid. One of the great things of this show is the somewhat mature relationship between Magnus & her daughter. Emilie Ullerup is fantastic! I don't want them to change actress, like some sort of swap body thingy.
Oh & I ship Ash/Will :P. A kid with Will would be wrong on so many levels for obvious reasons :S But I'd love to see some Helen/Ash interaction of the early years as flashback :) Maybe in the next few eps, while they still think Ashley is dead :P

Wow, I haven't made a post on this forum in ages & here I find my self rumbling senslessly :) Sorry bout that!

Let's hope they'll bring her back!

jasminaGo
October 26th, 2009, 02:19 PM
The podcast is finally up

http://www.syfy.com/sanctuary/podcasts.php

EvenstarSRV
October 26th, 2009, 02:48 PM
The podcast is finally up

http://www.syfy.com/sanctuary/podcasts.php

Just finished listening to it...

A little too much joking around during the Will and Magnus scenes for my taste, though they all had really nice things to say about EU during the final scene. And it kinda sounded like AT hinted that they've got a possible story for S3, if they get picked up, that deals with Ashley. Not sure though.

I also noticed on the rewatch, Helen is wearing Ashley's necklace throughout the episode, and she touches it after the first confrontation with Druitt.

majorsal
October 26th, 2009, 03:33 PM
Just finished listening to it...

A little too much joking around during the Will and Magnus scenes for my taste, though they all had really nice things to say about EU during the final scene. And it kinda sounded like AT hinted that they've got a possible story for S3, if they get picked up, that deals with Ashley. Not sure though.

i LOVE listening to these guys talk to each other! :p

but i hope, for the commentaries on the dvds, they talk more about the episode(s). (but at least they spoke about the last scene)

my comments on the podcast -
it seems pretty final that ashley 'is' dead. :(

it WAS a gutsy move! it WAS extremely moving! it WAS a move that'll set up some serious helen ansgting!

but i have affection for ashley now more than ever, and it's basically b/c of what we saw her go through in 'end of nights pt1' and beyond. and i ADORE mother/daughter relationships, which are in extreme short supply, so... i'm going to miss the character and the storyline.

and yeah, i heard amanda's little sneaky throw-in about an idea of bringing in ashley for an ep, IF there's a season 3. (i also thought i heard martin and/or damian sucking in a breath at that spoiler :p)



I also noticed on the rewatch, Helen is wearing Ashley's necklace throughout the episode, and she touches it after the first confrontation with Druitt.

ash's necklace, or the one that helen gave her in the casket?

doylefan22
October 26th, 2009, 03:42 PM
I watched it for a second time tonight and bawled my eyes out again.

I'm still torn on Ashley's fate. The story is so epic and beautiful, how Ashley found herself again in the end and gave her life for her mother, how Helen cannot believe she's gone... Brilliantly played by all and I do think it was an exceptionally ballsy move to have no happy resolution.

But I will also miss Ashley desperately. I think Helen's confession that her instinct insists her daughter is still alive was them allowing themselves a trail to follow if they do want to bring her back. Emilie is such a sweetheart and I'd love to see her return to the show and what she could do with a likely very different Ashley.

I still don't think we're completely meant to like Kate at the moment. She's hardly given any likeable characteristics. I think they intend her to be a character who changes and grows on us.

majorsal
October 26th, 2009, 03:52 PM
I
I'm still torn on Ashley's fate. The story is so epic and beautiful, how Ashley found herself again in the end and gave her life for her mother, how Helen cannot believe she's gone... Brilliantly played by all and I do think it was an exceptionally ballsy move to have no happy resolution.

i know what you mean by everything. i'm torn too. :/

that scene i highlighted... ugh and painful. :(


I think Helen's confession that her instinct insists her daughter is still alive was them allowing themselves a trail to follow

i like this. :) and they never found a body, so...


if they do want to bring her back. Emilie is such a sweetheart and I'd love to see her return to the show and what she could do with a likely very different Ashley.

if she remembers anything or everything, yeah, she'd be different.


I still don't think we're completely meant to like Kate at the moment. She's hardly given any likeable characteristics. I think they intend her to be a character who changes and grows on us.

i don't dislike her, i just feel little of anything for her right now. but, i felt little for anyone at the beginning of the series too (except for helen :p), so i'm sure kate will grow on me. maybe like a tan, and not some skin infection. :p

AresLover452
October 26th, 2009, 04:29 PM
Kate has the feeling of being a filler.... don't really get her yet and not too impressed with her attitude.

RealmOfX
October 26th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Kate has the feeling of being a filler.... don't really get her yet and not too impressed with her attitude.

IMO her character is a "type" (kick ass, sass talking woman) and stinks of network formula story telling. That she is brought in as Ashley is taken out, and has similar kick arse qualities, has me wanting to smack a few heads together behind the scenes, in particular to tell the network to take their notes and put them in an appropriate place ;)

EvenstarSRV
October 26th, 2009, 05:13 PM
i LOVE listening to these guys talk to each other! :p

but i hope, for the commentaries on the dvds, they talk more about the episode(s). (but at least they spoke about the last scene)

Oh me too, these guys crack me up regularly on their commentaries. I was just hoping for something more along the lines of what they did for Requiem, esp regarding the Helen/Will storyline.



ash's necklace, or the one that helen gave her in the casket?

Hmm, my bad, I think I'm just assuming that Helen gave that necklace to Ashley at some point, since she put it into her casket. More likely she did it because it symbolizes closure for her.



I still don't think we're completely meant to like Kate at the moment. She's hardly given any likeable characteristics. I think they intend her to be a character who changes and grows on us.

According to DK on the commentary

Eps 3 and 4 are important for the Kate character, I'm guessing in regards to her integration into the Sanctuary team.

Kate did grow on me a bit in this episode, but she better knock it out of the park next week, or Sanctuary is going to be harder for me to enjoy this season. :(

AresLover452
October 26th, 2009, 07:31 PM
IMO her character is a "type" (kick ass, sass talking woman) and stinks of network formula story telling. That she is brought in as Ashley is taken out, and has similar kick arse qualities, has me wanting to smack a few heads together behind the scenes, in particular to tell the network to take their notes and put them in an appropriate place ;)

Kinda like where the sun don't shine... lol!!!!

AresLover452
October 26th, 2009, 08:29 PM
the only thing I liked about this eppy was the end where John was stalking Dana.... AND.... he had the cane he used when he was the RIPPER!!!!

Khentkawes
October 26th, 2009, 11:22 PM
This episode has been bugging me for the past couple of days, because it left me feeling vaguely unsatisfied and confused. But maybe that's just me.

AT did an amazing job. I'll certainly agree with that. As did CH, who continues to impress me in every scene he has. Just wish we got to see more of him, is all. And the scenes with Will and Helen were great. It was nice to see Will challenge her a bit.

I wasn't thrilled with Ashley's death, so this episode was a bit of a let down. I'm glad they dealt with Helen's grief and how Ashley's death affected all the characters. I think they handled that well. The scene in the cathedral was very poignant. But I still think killing Ashley off was a bad plan, writing-wise. I don't generally like killing off characters just to increase the sense of danger, or to give other characters some "uber-angst" potential. And it seems like that's kinda what this is. Ashely's character didn't get that much development last season, so killing her off now makes it seem a bit like they didn't know what to do with her. I also thought that the mother-daughter dynamics were one of the trademarks of the show. Guess that's gone now. :(

I'm still not sure what to make of the flashbacks with Helen and the necklace. I'm all for symbolism, but I just don't think these elements were incorporated into the story very well. I've read a few of the interpretations offered in this thread, but... I still think it was poorly done. The link between the flashbacks and the rest of the story just wasn't clear enough, IMO.


I still would have rather seen Druitt and Tesla taking apart the Cabal network than Kate and Henry's search, but they probably didn't have the funds/time for that after End of Nights.

I would have rather seen this too. But then again, I'd rather see Druitt and Tesla doing anything. :D I love both of these characters, and would be quite happy to see them in every episode... even if all Tesla does is sit around, drink Helen's wine, and annoy Henry. :)
But I think after last week, it was easy to sympathize with John's anger, so it would have been nice to see just a little of their crusade against the Cabal.

The stuff with Kate did give Henry some nice screen time, so that was good.



The split screen I like, as long as it's used sparingly. It was much more annoying in end of nights part one.

eh, didn't like this technique the first time I saw it. Still don't like. I find it unnecessary and eye-jarring. It jerks me right out of the story every time I see it.



I still don't think we're completely meant to like Kate at the moment. She's hardly given any likeable characteristics. I think they intend her to be a character who changes and grows on us.

You're probably right. Kate was marginally better in this episode. Still, I don't think I'm ever going to like her character. They could give her all the development in the world, but I personally find her voice grating. I realize it's a personal thing, but I don't think I can ever get over it. :o


IMO her character is a "type" (kick ass, sass talking woman) and stinks of network formula story telling. That she is brought in as Ashley is taken out, and has similar kick arse qualities, has me wanting to smack a few heads together behind the scenes

I agree. That's the first thing I thought (after I realized she was going to be in more than just one episode). It seemed like her whole story line in this episode was to prove that she has the hunting/tracking abilities to take over for Ashley. It's like someone said, "let's, remove the kick-ass chick with an attitude, and add a different kick-ass chick with an attitude."

Ah well. I guess we'll see where this week goes. With any luck, we'll find out what Druitt has been up to. :)

jckfan55
October 27th, 2009, 12:11 AM
AT did an amazing job. I'll certainly agree with that. As did CH, who continues to impress me in every scene he has. Just wish we got to see more of him, is all. And the scenes with Will and Helen were great. It was nice to see Will challenge her a bit.
Yes, Will was good here.




I wasn't thrilled with Ashley's death, so this episode was a bit of a let down. I'm glad they dealt with Helen's grief and how Ashley's death affected all the characters. I think they handled that well. The scene in the cathedral was very poignant. But I still think killing Ashley off was a bad plan, writing-wise. I don't generally like killing off characters just to increase the sense of danger, or to give other characters some "uber-angst" potential. And it seems like that's kinda what this is. Ashely's character didn't get that much development last season, so killing her off now makes it seem a bit like they didn't know what to do with her. I also thought that the mother-daughter dynamics were one of the trademarks of the show. Guess that's gone now. :(

I agree. I always thought the mother-daughter thing was much more interesting than Ashly as the "kick butt" character. sure that was part of her personality, but there was so much left to do with her and her relationship with Helen--which would be good for both characters.
If they did this just to increase the "jeopardy" it really turns me off.
If EU had to leave for some reason of her own, that would help me cope. But I still think losing Ashley stinks for the show as a whole.



You're probably right. Kate was marginally better in this episode. Still, I don't think I'm ever going to like her character. They could give her all the development in the world, but I personally find her voice grating. I realize it's a personal thing, but I don't think I can ever get over it. :o

I agree. That's the first thing I thought (after I realized she was going to be in more than just one episode). It seemed like her whole story line in this episode was to prove that she has the hunting/tracking abilities to take over for Ashley. It's like someone said, "let's, remove the kick-ass chick with an attitude, and add a different kick-ass chick with an attitude."


Yep.

On another note, I was thinking about the way Helen sees Ashley in her daydreams/visions. Ashley is her sweet girl, not some kick butt team member.

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 12:13 AM
Ashley was the one good thing John ever gave to Helen.

KaKaCarter
October 27th, 2009, 01:05 AM
This was always going to be a tough episode after the strength of the first two episodes of season 2. Tapping's performance as the grief stricken mother refusing to give up hope was brilliant.

Still i find myself disappointed Tesla didn't get at least one scene. I would have really liked to see a magnus - Tesla and get to see Tesla taken out of his comfort zone. I really liked the unrequited love aspect they introduced in season one regarding his feelings for Helen and i thought watching him being conflicted as he tries to empathise with her pain while his natural instinct would be to tell the hurtful truth that ashley's dead would be cool. Or as others said watching him and druitt killing cabal agents might have worked as well. One thing i don't get is that Tesla spent ages evading the cabal. How come they are now so easy to destroy in a full frontal attack.

Druitt was brilliant wlaking the fine line between a father on a mission of revenge and jack the ripper. It left me uncomfortable which is a sign of great acting. I was empathising with him and condoning his behaviour whilst realsing he's walking a very amoral line. Hope they drag out his stalking of cabal lady.

The secondary storyline was ok. The kate character is a big problem though. She's a huge slob but everytime we see her she's empeccably groomed and attired. Like others have said she'd the kick ass fiesty babe clone still and is seriously in need baking into a well rounded character. Only hope is her rapport with Henry. I saw it when she fainted in his arms and i guessed there going to be spending a lot of time together this season on screen.

I oscillated between thinking ashley defintely going to come back later to being less sure. The ghost scene at the end lessened my faith but the lack of body still makes me think they plan to have her back. Her being dead for a bit does allow druitt & helen to go to darker places for a while.

I liked will's interactions with Magnus. Finally the character seemed to have a little edge as he confronted her.

kes
October 27th, 2009, 02:04 AM
In the podcast AT mentions that several things came into play.
But I disagree with what DK said that eveything would have gone back to normal. Ash would have had to deal with what she'd done so it wouldnt be the same.

And that they have a great idea for an Ash story.

NurseFG
October 27th, 2009, 02:24 AM
I still have hope that Ashley will be back. I have heard rumors that EU was injured on set so maybe thats why Ashley is 'dead', thats gives EU time to recover and come back later in the season.
If there is confirmation that she will be back i will buy season 1 after school tomorrow to celebrate lol

Skydiver
October 27th, 2009, 03:54 AM
one interpretation about the flashbacks....in them Helen was looking for something the whole world said didn't exist. Everyone was telling her that she was a fool, she was wasting her time, etc.

but she persevered and ended up finding the mythical place.

substitute 'mythical place' for 'ashley' and it's a bit of a commentary on her search for her daughter. Henry, Biggy, Will, likely Tesla, John, were all telling her 'helen, she's gone' but she didn't want to believe.

and i think, while she finally ceeded to them in the end, she did it more as an acknowledgment that life goes on and so does her responsibility...but she doesn't plan to give up searching for Ash...she's just going to be doing that searching more low key and discreet. I will bet, even though there's been a memorial service, Ash's room will be locked and untouched.

Helen may be moving on, but she's not giving up

Mousie
October 27th, 2009, 07:17 AM
That was an amazing episode, truly sad. I think that AT and CH are truely excellent actors and episodes like this show how good they are.

I was looking at the necklace flashback a bit more literaly initially, as a result of what they said to Helen (that it would help her in dark times, that it was a bit more than just a necklace), that it might be involved in recovering Ash some how, but 'a magic necklace was the key' would be a bit too much. I like the symbology of it representing her search for Ashley though.

I don't think we'll see what John does to Dana as it would be a bit too gruesome for anything less than a horror film! We do know that John's killing them off, after all, lounging around covered in blood is a bit of a giveaway but they aren't going to show him killing her!

WishIwasJoes
October 27th, 2009, 07:40 AM
That was an amazing episode, truly sad. I think that AT and CH are truely excellent actors and episodes like this show how good they are.

I was looking at the necklace flashback a bit more literaly initially, as a result of what they said to Helen (that it would help her in dark times, that it was a bit more than just a necklace), that it might be involved in recovering Ash some how, but 'a magic necklace was the key' would be a bit too much. I like the symbology of it representing her search for Ashley though.

I don't think we'll see what John does to Dana as it would be a bit too gruesome for anything less than a horror film! We do know that John's killing them off, after all, lounging around covered in blood is a bit of a giveaway but they aren't going to show him killing her!

I agree with what you said about the necklace. I am so looking at many ways Ashely can come back. If she is not coming back then why do they not just say so? We all knew Carson and Janet were dead. I stopped watching SGA when Carson was killed. And I was one of the many happy fans to see his return. I did not care how they brought him back, all that mattered was he was back! :beckett:

I connot stress how much I loved the mother/daughter good fight of the show. It was so special and made the show stand out from the pack, besides the fancy green screen and the abnormals.

I am really trying to like the actress that plays Kate but I am having a hard time. "Garbage pick up is at FOUR!" I shook my head at that. Her character does not fit into the show. Or maybe its the way she is being played. Can Martin not directed a woman character that Mr. Kindler has in mind? Many people blamed bad direction on the way the character Vala was played in seasons 9 and 10. :vala:

If Ashely really is gone then the show missed out on a great story arc of ashley having to come to grips with her mind being tampered with. She helped ruin what her mother worked all her life to build up. She betrayed her duty to protect. It would have been smashing.

Not to mention if ashely is really gone what keeps the nice dream of family for helen and jonh alive?

EvenstarSRV
October 27th, 2009, 08:08 AM
I connot stress how much I loved the mother/daughter good fight of the show. It was so special and made the show stand out from the pack, besides the fancy green screen and the abnormals.

Yeah, the mother/daughter dynamic between Helen and Ashley was a unique part of the show and one of my favorite aspects of it. I'm really going to miss that this season. :(



I am really trying to like the actress that plays Kate but I am having a hard time. "Garbage pick up is at FOUR!" I shook my head at that. Her character does not fit into the show. Or maybe its the way she is being played. Can Martin not directed a woman character that Mr. Kindler has in mind? Many people blamed bad direction on the way the character Vala was played in seasons 9 and 10. :vala:

One main reason Kate is still jarring for me, is that she's in a much different place emotionally than the rest of the characters, esp in End of Nights. Everyone else, and the audience presumably, is caught up in Ashley's situation, and Kate is just flip about the whole thing. It makes sense for the character, but it does make it hard for the audience to relate to her, I think. As the show lightens back up and gets back to business as usual, I think she'll fit into the show a bit better than she has so far, I hope at least.



If Ashely really is gone then the show missed out on a great story arc of ashley having to come to grips with her mind being tampered with. She helped ruin what her mother worked all her life to build up. She betrayed her duty to protect. It would have been smashing.


That would have been great, a bit like Druitt's struggles in the later part of last season to atone for what he did.

jckfan55
October 27th, 2009, 08:11 AM
and i think, while she finally ceeded to them in the end, she did it more as an acknowledgment that life goes on and so does her responsibility...but she doesn't plan to give up searching for Ash...she's just going to be doing that searching more low key and discreet. I will bet, even though there's been a memorial service, Ash's room will be locked and untouched.

Helen may be moving on, but she's not giving up

that's what I'm hoping for.

Mousie
October 27th, 2009, 08:24 AM
It does pay to remember though that it might have been one of the few options they had given Emilie's injury. She might not have been able to come back for ages.

It's a shame though, I too loved the dynamic between Helen and Ash. It will make for some interesting eps now though, seeing how Helen deals.

Sarge300491
October 27th, 2009, 09:03 AM
i hope she does come back. just read this on spoilertv.com about Ashley.

Penelope in York, Pa.: Is Ashley Magnus really dead on Sanctuary?
Sources confirm that yes, Ashley Magnus really died on Syfy's Sanctuary, and that Emilie Ullerup has left the cast of the show. Are you guys bummed to hear that, or are you OK with the change?

Skydiver
October 27th, 2009, 09:25 AM
I don't think we'll see what John does to Dana as it would be a bit too gruesome for anything less than a horror film! We do know that John's killing them off, after all, lounging around covered in blood is a bit of a giveaway but they aren't going to show him killing her!
I don't think i even see john lingering in killing her. he'll sneak up behind her, grab her with a hand over her mouth, slit her throat and let her fall to the ground, gasping her last breaths. he'll then step over her and leave her like so much garbage as he teleports away.

i don't think he'll even brag to helen, just move on. Dana's death likely won't be mentioned until the cabal rises again and somenoe else is in charge and helen looks at john and he shrugs. 'you said you were not interested in revenge'

the closest helen will ever come to knowing that dana is dead is if the body happens to be found and there's a story about a murdered jane doe

helen won't confront john, john won't bring it up. they've agreed to disagree

Mousie
October 27th, 2009, 09:36 AM
I agree and disagree. Sanctuary Ripper might make it quick, but given the Rippers history and the fact (IMO) that you can really see John becoming unstuck again that he'd be more inclined to make it linger given what Dana did.

DigiFluid
October 27th, 2009, 09:37 AM
I don't think i even see john lingering in killing her. he'll sneak up behind her, grab her with a hand over her mouth, slit her throat and let her fall to the ground, gasping her last breaths. he'll then step over her and leave her like so much garbage as he teleports away.

i don't think he'll even brag to helen, just move on. Dana's death likely won't be mentioned until the cabal rises again and somenoe else is in charge and helen looks at john and he shrugs. 'you said you were not interested in revenge'

the closest helen will ever come to knowing that dana is dead is if the body happens to be found and there's a story about a murdered jane doe

helen won't confront john, john won't bring it up. they've agreed to disagree
I'd more or less agree with that. The only spot I slightly differ on is that I expect Druitt would want Dana to see him and know it was him doing it; he is fueled by bloodlust for his murdered child.

kes
October 27th, 2009, 10:04 AM
I wanna see blood ppl! BLOOD! Think Hostel LOL Or Saw :D

Khentkawes
October 27th, 2009, 11:23 AM
one interpretation about the flashbacks....in them Helen was looking for something the whole world said didn't exist. Everyone was telling her that she was a fool, she was wasting her time, etc.

but she persevered and ended up finding the mythical place.

substitute 'mythical place' for 'ashley' and it's a bit of a commentary on her search for her daughter. Henry, Biggy, Will, likely Tesla, John, were all telling her 'helen, she's gone' but she didn't want to believe.

and i think, while she finally ceeded to them in the end, she did it more as an acknowledgment that life goes on and so does her responsibility...but she doesn't plan to give up searching for Ash...she's just going to be doing that searching more low key and discreet. I will bet, even though there's been a memorial service, Ash's room will be locked and untouched.

Helen may be moving on, but she's not giving up

I guess that interpretation works. I can see the parallels, I just don't think it was done very well in the episode.

Another thing I've been wondering... if the flashbacks are symbolic of Helen's quest to find Ashley, then wouldn't Helen giving up the necklace and putting it in Ashley's coffin represent her abandoning that quest completely? The necklace is supposed to be her symbol of hope, a light in the darkness. And Helen chooses to put it in a coffin, which implies that her hope is dead and buried. If she had worn the necklace at the end of the episode, I would say that she still was hanging onto a shred of hope that Ashely was alive. In the flashbacks, no one believed that she would find the place she was looking for. But she did, and the necklace represents the successful end of that quest. So holding on to the necklace would give Helen a reminder that her previous quest was successful, against all odds, so maybe this one will be too. Hence, she would still have hope. As it is, it felt very final to me. I think giving up the necklace was an admission that she had given up hope on finding Ashely.

I kinda hope I'm wrong. But it's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me.

Linda06
October 27th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Just watched it last night cause we're a few days behind most of you guys :p

But what an emotional episode. AT was brilliant as always, especially in the more emotional scenes, I had a lump in my throat and believe me that doesn't happen very often :o CH always impresses me with his performances, whether it be in the numerous characters in Stargate or on Sanctuary, he is one mighty fine actor. All the characters he's played have been so different and every one he's played he's been great :D

I like Will, I wouldn't say he's the greatest character but I do like him but in this ep he too was exceptional. The way he tried to get Helen to try and accept Ashley's demise, that little bit of conflict between them. It was good piece of acting by both.

I always like Henry and the big guy (does he not have a name yet?), apart from Helen, those two are up there with my fave characters too :D

I can't believe how much I've grew to love this show, and to think I wasn't sure about it when it first started :o Now I can't wait for Monday's to come round :D

And it's quite unusual for me to love an actor (AT) and love two different shows they've done and love both characters said actor plays ;)


I wanna see blood ppl! BLOOD! Think Hostel LOL Or Saw :D

Oh yeah baby!!!!!! I love blood :D

http://www.smilescollection.com/smiles/signs/sc_11836.gif

BigHonkinSpaceGun
October 27th, 2009, 12:27 PM
From the podcast
Ashley is dead, though AT let slip that they have a possible story for bringing her back, if there's a season 3.

WishIwasJoes
October 27th, 2009, 01:01 PM
From the podcast
Ashley is dead, though AT let slip that they have a possible story for bringing her back, if there's a season 3.

Well that kills alot for me. :(

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 01:21 PM
I would be happy just to see her again. I reworking this in a Fanfic where Ashley survives.

slurredspeech
October 27th, 2009, 01:23 PM
Well that kills alot for me. :(

Yeah. You know, I'm not too happy they killed her off and I'm loving the what-if you guys are bouncing around about her coping with what she's done throughout S2. But since they decided to go with killing her off, then I wouldn't like them to revive her. It would feel like a cheat.
Perhaps having a story about her in a flashback episode would be a better option.

SamJackShipLover
October 27th, 2009, 01:24 PM
I was so waiting for Jack the Ripper to appear right behind the lady and slit her throat, but I guess they're going to draw out that story a little more than that.
I don't think they'll show any more of that scene. We can all imagine how he killed her :D



I'm still not sure what to make of the flashbacks with Helen and the necklace. I'm all for symbolism, but I just don't think these elements were incorporated into the story very well. I've read a few of the interpretations offered in this thread, but... I still think it was poorly done. The link between the flashbacks and the rest of the story just wasn't clear enough, IMO.
I agree with this. I didn't really understand it and especially at first was really confused ... also with Helen seeing Ashley a couple of times (kind of hallucinations?) I wasn't sure what we were seeing now.

I really liked this episode. I don't mind Kate. I did think the cathedral was a bit too much. A huuuuuge building with only the 4 of them .. also the CGI (?) here threw my out of the story a bit. And I kept thinking: can Bigfoot just be in this cathedral? What if someone walks in and sees him? I would've preferred if they had used a smaller location inside the Sanctuary or something.

I'm really sorry that Ashley is dead. Like EH-T said, I like Emilie and want her to be part of the show. And Helen/Ashley and John/Ashley all has so much potential. Really too bad we're not going to see anymore of that.
I really really really hope they'll work Ashleys death in the rest of the season. Not suddenly forgetting about her. I mean, Helen lost her daughter and that would effect her for a long time to come. If everyone seems to forget about her now ...

sweetviviane
October 27th, 2009, 01:25 PM
Well that kills alot for me. :(


Heard that too and I'd be really happy if it happens:)

slurredspeech
October 27th, 2009, 01:25 PM
And I kept thinking: can Bigfoot just be in this cathedral? What if someone walks in and sees him? I would've preferred if they had used a smaller location inside the Sanctuary or something.

I think the cathedral is part of the sanctuary.


I really really really hope they'll work Ashleys death in the rest of the season. Not suddenly forgetting about her. I mean, Helen lost her daughter and that would effect her for a long time to come.

Oh, definitely. And I do think they will. *fingers crossed*

Khentkawes
October 27th, 2009, 01:49 PM
I think the cathedral is part of the sanctuary.

I assumed that too. It's a pretty big place.

slurredspeech
October 27th, 2009, 02:04 PM
I assumed that too. It's a pretty big place.

Yep, me too. Plus, I believe they said something along those lines in the podcast as well.

I could have heard wrong, though.

It makes sense, too. And it's very fitting to have a memorial there.

EvenstarSRV
October 27th, 2009, 02:13 PM
I think the cathedral is part of the sanctuary.


I'm pretty sure it is, you get a glimpse of it in the crane shot from Revelations part 1 when Druitt and Helen walked down to steps into the central lab, and from a distance in those overhead daytime exterior shots.

I'm really torn about whether I'd want Ashley to possibly return or not. The 'no one really dies in sci-fi' thing is such a cliche, but there are shows where they did it well and it didn't just reset the characters. I think the creative team on this show could pull it off if they wanted to.

WishIwasJoes
October 27th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Yeah after watching this episode again on Hulu. The desert flashbacks are more about Helen putting to rest the remains of the shaman. The Indian tells her now his people can rest. By Helen letting Ashley go, her crew can rest and come to terms. However I am still not, as a fan, getting any closure from her death. The memorial service was in a great setting, lighting was great, music wonderful!

However everyone put something in Ashely's casket. I would have liked small stories to have been behind each object. Maybe we will see that in the future? Big guy put a doll, Henry a book and will a rose. I am sure the producers of the show want us to take in Kate ASAP and have us all move on. But that is going to be hard since Ashely was such a great character.

I agree with a post put up about how the Kate story line took alot of emotions away from the loss of Ashely. So I did what people suggested and skipped the Henry/Kate side show and it made the ending so much more powerful.

Since its been confirmed by Ms. Tapping that EU is really gone my poker nights are now back on and I will just watch the show whenever I get the chance rather than stay home. I am so mad she is really gone.

slurredspeech
October 27th, 2009, 02:23 PM
I agree with a post put up about how the Kate story line took alot of emotions away from the loss of Ashely.

Yeah... I wasn't a fan of such contrasting and unrelated storylines put together either. Methinks, the Ashley story would have been much more poignant had they focused on that, with Druitt and the Cabal as the secondary storyline.


Since its been confirmed by Ms. Tapping that EU is really gone my poker nights are now back on and I will just watch the show whenever I get the chance rather than stay home. I am so mad she is really gone.

Aww, come now. Give it a shot. Losing Ashley is still fresh (wow, I'm so dramatic) but you don't want to give up on a potentially fantastic season over one unfortunate event.

Just a thought. :)

EH-T
October 27th, 2009, 02:28 PM
I agree. I always thought the mother-daughter thing was much more interesting than Ashly as the "kick butt" character. sure that was part of her personality, but there was so much left to do with her and her relationship with Helen--which would be good for both characters.
If they did this just to increase the "jeopardy" it really turns me off.
If EU had to leave for some reason of her own, that would help me cope. But I still think losing Ashley stinks for the show as a whole.


Yep.

On another note, I was thinking about the way Helen sees Ashley in her daydreams/visions. Ashley is her sweet girl, not some kick butt team member.

Excellent point about how Helen sees Ashley in the daydreams.

NurseFG
October 27th, 2009, 02:39 PM
I think the only thing to do now is just to remain hopeful that Ashley/EU will be back.

There that been hints at her being gone for good and hints that she will be back so we will just have to wait and see.

Although i am holding onto the belief that all the hints that she is gone are just there to screw with our heads and cause us to go crazy on the forums and are just there to generate a response from the fans.

I will be very disappointed if she is gone for good

ann_sgcfan
October 27th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Yeah... I wasn't a fan of such contrasting and unrelated storylines put together either. Methinks, the Ashley story would have been much more poignant had they focused on that, with Druitt and the Cabal as the secondary storyline.


I liked the episode - including both storylines. Not only did it give everyone something to do, but also I think it was the perfect story to show how desperate Helen was to prove Ashley was alive despite the fact everyone else had accepted her death. They had all moved on with the task of putting the Sanctuaries back together. How many of us have lost someone close to us and felt like time seemed to be standing still while the world kept turning. I think the eppy was a good example of this ... everyone else had moved on while Helen stayed in her office trying to prove the impossible.


They may be saving John and Dana's showdown for John's eppy even if it's shown in a flashback (I'm just guessing). I don't think John killed Dana - not in this episode anyways. In my opinion Dana would not have been out in the open drinking tea/coffee so carelessly while John was out killing members of the Cabal. Dana has always been shown to be very calculated in her dealings with the Sanctuary. Otherwise it's bad writing for her to be out in the public like that (and I don't associate DK and company with bad writing). I think Dana was setting him up and was just drawing him out. Everything the Cabal learned from the super soldiers maybe allowed Dana to have a few surprises for John and his teleporting abilities. I mean something has to keep John away from the Sanctuary for a few episodes.

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:14 PM
On another note, I was thinking about the way Helen sees Ashley in her daydreams/visions. Ashley is her sweet girl, not some kick butt team member.

... i wonder if ashley's spirit lives on, and that's what helen was sensing?

if the writers went in this direction, i could actually find myself... i don't know, believing it, b/c of what ashley was able to do, teleporting herself here and there. maybe she's stuck in some limbo?...

slurredspeech
October 27th, 2009, 03:15 PM
They had all moved on with the task of putting the Sanctuaries back together.

Hmm, you know, if there was more of that - actually dealing with rebuilding the network - I would have liked it better. And it would still convey that feeling you talk about, which I think is a wonderful concept. I just didn't like the execution.

Or perhaps I just wasn't that wild about this particular story... Either way, it felt jarring to me instead, drawing away from the main storyline instead of feeding it.

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Ashley was the one good thing John ever gave to Helen.

i agree.

and that made me think of the scene where helen saw olderversion john come in, followed by ashley... that was *so* sad, b/c it reflected helen's deepest wish... i know i've stated this before, but that scene is haunting me. :(

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:24 PM
one interpretation about the flashbacks....in them Helen was looking for something the whole world said didn't exist. Everyone was telling her that she was a fool, she was wasting her time, etc.

but she persevered and ended up finding the mythical place.

substitute 'mythical place' for 'ashley' and it's a bit of a commentary on her search for her daughter. Henry, Biggy, Will, likely Tesla, John, were all telling her 'helen, she's gone' but she didn't want to believe.

and i think, while she finally ceeded to them in the end, she did it more as an acknowledgment that life goes on and so does her responsibility...but she doesn't plan to give up searching for Ash...she's just going to be doing that searching more low key and discreet. I will bet, even though there's been a memorial service, Ash's room will be locked and untouched.

Helen may be moving on, but she's not giving up

re the highlight; i saw this in my head too. and if anyone tries to mess with it, including wil, bigfoot will stop them.

but i really agree with you on helen not 'really' giving in to the idea that she's gone, or giving up on finding her.

NurseFG
October 27th, 2009, 03:27 PM
i don't think it was Ashley's spirit Helen was seeing, i think i represented the part of her that just wanted her daughter back and to be a mother and her deepest desire to have a family like we saw in scene when John and Ashley walk in

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:31 PM
As the show lightens back up and gets back to business as usual, I think she'll fit into the show a bit better than she has so far, I hope at least.


i know the show will have to lighten up (we'd be constantly depressed if it didn't :p), but i hope ashley's death isn't quickly ignored. i *hated* it when they did that on sg1 (janet), and seeing as this was helen DAUGHTER, i really, really hope it's brought up once in a while. (little things, like kate trying to go in ash's room and helen angrily stopping her).

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:35 PM
helen won't confront john, john won't bring it up. they've agreed to disagree

what did john say again, about helen secretly liking that he's going to kill dana, but just not wanting to know about it? (i know that's not the way he said it)

one does have to wonder, though, how helen would have dealt with dana, if she'd gotten a hold of her instead. she was ready to shoot kate in the knee for holding back info, so how would she have reacted to her child's literal murderer?

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Another thing I've been wondering... if the flashbacks are symbolic of Helen's quest to find Ashley, then wouldn't Helen giving up the necklace and putting it in Ashley's coffin represent her abandoning that quest completely?

The necklace is supposed to be her symbol of hope, a light in the darkness. And Helen chooses to put it in a coffin, which implies that her hope is dead and buried. If she had worn the necklace at the end of the episode, I would say that she still was hanging onto a shred of hope that Ashely was alive. In the flashbacks, no one believed that she would find the place she was looking for. But she did, and the necklace represents the successful end of that quest. So holding on to the necklace would give Helen a reminder that her previous quest was successful, against all odds, so maybe this one will be too. Hence, she would still have hope. As it is, it felt very final to me. I think giving up the necklace was an admission that she had given up hope on finding Ashely.

I kinda hope I'm wrong. But it's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me.

i've thought that too.

or maybe...

giving it to ashley, to help her find her way home?...

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 03:43 PM
From the podcast
Ashley is dead, though AT let slip that they have a possible story for bringing her back, if there's a season 3.

i was talking to my mom about this, and i'm wondering if it would 'really' be bringing ash back, or just having emilie there b/c of flashbacks... or she's a spirit. :p

i want to know for sure!, but i know we won't be told, to make us keep watching. :p

ann_sgcfan
October 27th, 2009, 03:48 PM
Hmm, you know, if there was more of that - actually dealing with rebuilding the network - I would have liked it better. And it would still convey that feeling you talk about, which I think is a wonderful concept. I just didn't like the execution.

Or perhaps I just wasn't that wild about this particular story... Either way, it felt jarring to me instead, drawing away from the main storyline instead of feeding it.

They couldn't just rebuild the sanctuary without an adventure (people would be complaining then that it was too boring) and what better way of showing an adventure than having the new girl, who see dollar signs on everything. I think it shows they continued on with their lives and the daily events (which includes chasing abnormals). You don't have to agree with me ... I'm just saying that's how I saw the episode and for me they did execute Helen being alone in her quest ... as any mother would.

EH-T
October 27th, 2009, 03:49 PM
About the podcast:

I'm officially bummed now. Ashley is gone and will only be back for the odd story, if that. I respect the right of TPTB to do as they see fit with their show but I will miss the character and the potential she held.

NurseFG
October 27th, 2009, 03:50 PM
If Helen did have that opportunity i would like her to take a leaf out of John's book and make her pay for what she did to Ashley

chucky907
October 27th, 2009, 03:54 PM
i love new monster when he think she is mother is funny

slurredspeech
October 27th, 2009, 03:54 PM
They couldn't just rebuild the sanctuary without an adventure (people would be complaining then that it was too boring) and what better way of showing an adventure than having the new girl, who see dollar signs on everything. I think it shows they continued on with their lives and the daily events...

Sure they could have! And this camper wouldn't find it boring just for the lack of a sewer chase scene.
Had they shown them dealing with abnormals in a non hunt-you-down way, and incorporated Henry's and Bigfoot's feelings on the situation yet still showed them moving on and doing what needs to be done, I would have enjoyed it immensly, actually.

I loved the Helen-Druitt and Helen-Will scenes, and, of course, the ending. But the other part... I'm sorry. It worked for you. It didn't for me. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

ETA:


... (which includes chasing abnormals).

I think it includes so much more than just chasing them, though.

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 04:06 PM
at the end, do you think helen 'really' saw ashley, or it was just her mind pretending she was there to find closure?

WishIwasJoes
October 27th, 2009, 04:06 PM
About the podcast:

I'm officially bummed now. Ashley is gone and will only be back for the odd story, if that. I respect the right of TPTB to do as they see fit with their show but I will miss the character and the potential she held.

You are a better person than I. I am done.

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 04:40 PM
If Helen did have that opportunity i would like her to take a leaf out of John's book and make her pay for what she did to Ashley


Helen has more respect for human life than that, despite her pain and rage, Helen would leave the messy job of Dana to John. She knows he will take care of it and make her pay in the harshest ways possible.

ann_sgcfan
October 27th, 2009, 04:41 PM
at the end, do you think helen 'really' saw ashley, or it was just her mind pretending she was there to find closure?

I think it was just a way for Helen to find closure, Ashley wasn't really there.

Skydiver
October 27th, 2009, 04:41 PM
i don't think helen will hunt down dana. she has more important things to do, to carry on the sanctuary too make sure that no more people suffer at the hands of the cabal.

i think, unless she's confrnted, helen will ignore dana, but if dana gets in her way or trys to hurt someone else...helen will kill her.
helen doesn't have the blood lust that druitt does, but she will protect what's hers

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Dana cheated Druitt out of knowing his child, for that alone, he will hunt her down like cat does a mouse.

ann_sgcfan
October 27th, 2009, 04:47 PM
i don't think helen will hunt down dana. she has more important things to do, to carry on the sanctuary too make sure that no more people suffer at the hands of the cabal.

i think, unless she's confrnted, helen will ignore dana, but if dana gets in her way or trys to hurt someone else...helen will kill her.
helen doesn't have the blood lust that druitt does, but she will protect what's hers

Yeah I agree. Especially given what she said to John when he returned to the Sanctuary from killing the Cabal. I just wonder how much longer Helen allows John access to the Sanctuary .... I can see her asking him to stop dropping in as his madness continues to return.

Khentkawes
October 27th, 2009, 04:49 PM
at the end, do you think helen 'really' saw ashley, or it was just her mind pretending she was there to find closure?

Personally, I don't think Ashely was really there. I think it was like the other times when Helen saw Ashley... a vision concocted by her mind as a way for her to deal with her grief and confront her emotions.

If they had introduced the idea of ghosts or spirits in Sanctuary before, then I would be more likely to believe that the vision of Ashley was "real." As it is... :(

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 05:01 PM
The 'Vision' of Ashley was more than anything very sad, but I am holding firm to the belief that Ashley is out there somewhere.

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 05:01 PM
About the podcast:

I'm officially bummed now. Ashley is gone and will only be back for the odd story, if that. I respect the right of TPTB to do as they see fit with their show but I will miss the character and the potential she held.

i agree. :/

and this might not sound that nice, but i'll miss the mother/daughter relationship potential more than missing ashley herself.

there was sooo much to show and tell... :(

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 05:02 PM
Mother/daughter moments are always nice to see when the bond is believable.

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 05:05 PM
I think it was just a way for Helen to find closure, Ashley wasn't really there.

;)

what do you think helen meant by 'i'm sorry'? (talking about what helen said to ash at the very end, after she disappeared)

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 05:06 PM
i don't think helen will hunt down dana. she has more important things to do, to carry on the sanctuary too make sure that no more people suffer at the hands of the cabal.

i think, unless she's confrnted, helen will ignore dana, but if dana gets in her way or trys to hurt someone else...helen will kill her.
helen doesn't have the blood lust that druitt does, but she will protect what's hers

it would sure be interesting to see that moment, though, when helen was confronted with the person that took her child away... :S

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 05:09 PM
She hung up on dana on then threw her phone against the wall.

ann_sgcfan
October 27th, 2009, 05:11 PM
;)

what do you think helen meant by 'i'm sorry'? (talking about what helen said to ash at the very end, after she disappeared)

Helen spent the entire episode trying to prove Ashley was alive ... maybe the "I'm sorry" was because she couldn't prove it ... she couldn't find her.

allfornot
October 27th, 2009, 05:48 PM
i don't think helen will hunt down dana. she has more important things to do, to carry on the sanctuary too make sure that no more people suffer at the hands of the cabal.

i think, unless she's confrnted, helen will ignore dana, but if dana gets in her way or trys to hurt someone else...helen will kill her.
helen doesn't have the blood lust that druitt does, but she will protect what's hers

No way....her daughter was her most important thing. Its just that Helen knows that John will "take care" of dana as he implied in Eulogy.

Skydiver
October 27th, 2009, 05:49 PM
i'm sorry i couldn't find you
i'm sorry i couldn't fix you
i'm sorry i let you go on that mission
i'm sorry i lost you

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 05:52 PM
No way....her daughter was her most important thing. Its just that Helen knows that John will "take care" of dana as he implied in Eulogy.


as was seen at the end too. John definitely as intent and he will follow through.

*rubs hands together*

Rocky89
October 27th, 2009, 05:53 PM
i don't think helen will hunt down dana. she has more important things to do, to carry on the sanctuary too make sure that no more people suffer at the hands of the cabal.

i think, unless she's confronted, helen will ignore dana, but if dana gets in her way or trys to hurt someone else...helen will kill her.
helen doesn't have the blood lust that druitt does, but she will protect what's hers


it would sure be interesting to see that moment, though, when helen was confronted with the person that took her child away... :S

I agree, Helen wouldn't use her resources to hunt her down, but Dana came at her first and/or like you said tried to hurt someone else close to her, than Helen wouldn't mind killing her then. And I'd imagine the anger and pain going through Helen if and when she confronts Dana, who knows maybe she does fight her, remember those clips from the trailers?



;)

what do you think helen meant by 'i'm sorry'? (talking about what helen said to ash at the very end, after she disappeared)


Helen spent the entire episode trying to prove Ashley was alive ... maybe the "I'm sorry" was because she couldn't prove it ... she couldn't find her.

I agree, I think she's also saying "I'm sorry" because she couldn't protect her and couldn't save her. I still believe/hope she's out there somewhere for Helen's sake. :(

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 07:09 PM
I have the same belief, course i really don't believe that THAT was Ashley. The Cabal had their hands into so many pies, who the frak knows what else they cooked up scientifically.

suse
October 27th, 2009, 07:33 PM
i don't think it was Ashley's spirit Helen was seeing, i think i represented the part of her that just wanted her daughter back and to be a mother and her deepest desire to have a family like we saw in scene when John and Ashley walk in

I can see that. Though even if she had gotten Ashley back by some mirable, I'm not sure there is enough trust that would ever let her open her heart to John again. 130 years a a long time to mistrust.

suse

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 07:36 PM
Helen spent the entire episode trying to prove Ashley was alive ... maybe the "I'm sorry" was because she couldn't prove it ... she couldn't find her.


i'm sorry i couldn't find you
i'm sorry i couldn't fix you
i'm sorry i let you go on that mission
i'm sorry i lost you

:(

it's prob all of them. poor helen!

majorsal
October 27th, 2009, 07:38 PM
I can see that. Though even if she had gotten Ashley back by some mirable, I'm not sure there is enough trust that would ever let her open her heart to John again. 130 years a a long time to mistrust.

suse

and helen *knows* that it's just a matter of time before john goes back to a monster.

Rocky89
October 27th, 2009, 07:39 PM
i'm sorry i couldn't find you
i'm sorry i couldn't fix you
i'm sorry i let you go on that mission
i'm sorry i lost you


:(

it's prob all of them. poor helen!

Agreed. :(

(((Helen)))

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 07:41 PM
:(

it's prob all of them. poor helen!


and more we couldn't even begin to say.

prsweety
October 27th, 2009, 07:48 PM
I'm hoping as AT states in the podcast....see below spoiler...And you know it's Syfy nobody really dies in Syfy. We've already figured out a good story ending....i've convinced we'll do for season 3 if there is one...... i was so admiring that mother/daughter relationship...there were so many places it could have gone. I respect their decision, but am scared it might hurt ratings....I so hope it doesn't ....I really love Sanctuary and all the peeps....Amanda, Damian, Martin, Robin, Emilie, Christopher, ...and all the others....

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 07:50 PM
there is a good possibilty that there will be a S3.... * crosses fingers*

suse
October 27th, 2009, 07:50 PM
They couldn't just rebuild the sanctuary without an adventure (people would be complaining then that it was too boring) and what better way of showing an adventure than having the new girl, who see dollar signs on everything. I think it shows they continued on with their lives and the daily events (which includes chasing abnormals). You don't have to agree with me ... I'm just saying that's how I saw the episode and for me they did execute Helen being alone in her quest ... as any mother would.

I agree. They mentioned in the podcast that that the network needed to be rebuilt. And it did. Not doing their jobs wouldn't help the situation, indeed it would make it harder on Helen, so they stepped up to the plate.Life goes on. Kate was flippant other than that remark about blowing up Ashley. It's how she deals - and she didn't know Ashley, so no need for sadness. :S Hopefully that tones down soon. really soon. The others were hardly:lol: funny, even if they were with that storyline.

Yeah, I could have done without some of the sewer stuff and more of Helen. Or at least a crossover with Henry, as he was so upset last week.

I thought the uses of the two storylines worked well. It made what Helen was going through that much more taut. I think the whole ep with everyone trying to see if Ashley was alive would have been overkill. (Pardon the unintentional pun.)

suse

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 07:53 PM
Yeah, I could have done without some of the sewer stuff and more of Helen. Or at least a crossover with Henry, as he was so upset last week.

suse



More Helen and John....

EvenstarSRV
October 27th, 2009, 08:08 PM
i know the show will have to lighten up (we'd be constantly depressed if it didn't :p), but i hope ashley's death isn't quickly ignored. i *hated* it when they did that on sg1 (janet), and seeing as this was helen DAUGHTER, i really, really hope it's brought up once in a while. (little things, like kate trying to go in ash's room and helen angrily stopping her).

I'm not certain, but I think I remember seeing Helen holding Ashley's gun in one of the earlier promos that ran before the premiere. That could provide a nice moment for Helen to bring up Ashley briefly.


;)

what do you think helen meant by 'i'm sorry'? (talking about what helen said to ash at the very end, after she disappeared)


i'm sorry i couldn't find you
i'm sorry i couldn't fix you
i'm sorry i let you go on that mission
i'm sorry i lost you

Yeah, all of the above probably. I'd say from the moment Helen chose to let Ashley help her in her work, the possibility that she'd lose her must have been in the back of her mind, so maybe also sorry for getting you involved in all of this.

AresLover452
October 27th, 2009, 08:23 PM
Sorry for getting you killed.

NurseFG
October 28th, 2009, 12:15 AM
Sorry for getting you killed.

I'm sorry i couldn't do more to save you

AresLover452
October 28th, 2009, 12:19 AM
I'm sorry I bore you into a life of danger

Skydiver
October 28th, 2009, 03:48 AM
I'm sorry I put the job before my family.
I'm sorry I didn't keep you safe.
I'm sorry I didn't keep you secret.

WishIwasJoes
October 28th, 2009, 06:41 AM
I'm sorry as a producer I kicked you off the show! :lol:

I think alot of how the show is going to proced hangs in the balance of the next episode. If the show moves on like Ashley was just some girl that hung around Magnus I will be very upset. Children are parents life, we watch them and guide them, but we are never prepared to lose them.

I know Helen is strong and she has lost people before and blah blah. But as we were told as viewers it was always her and Ashley against the world. That is a strong bond. I do not care how old Helen is, to recover from that would take so much time.

She went though all the trouble of saving ashely's embro, to keep her away from John, and then bring her to term. Thats alot of work!!

I read AT said this season was more Ballsy. But I find killing of her daughter not ballsy but just plain horrible.

EH-T
October 28th, 2009, 07:04 AM
You are a better person than I. I am done.

As much as I liked Ashley and EU I also like the rest of the cast and characters and the show as a whole. That's why, although I don't like the decision to kill Ashley, I will keep watching. I'm sorry you feel you are done with the show. Perhaps if you give it some time, you may find your way back.


;)

what do you think helen meant by 'i'm sorry'? (talking about what helen said to ash at the very end, after she disappeared)


Helen spent the entire episode trying to prove Ashley was alive ... maybe the "I'm sorry" was because she couldn't prove it ... she couldn't find her.


i'm sorry i couldn't find you
i'm sorry i couldn't fix you
i'm sorry i let you go on that mission
i'm sorry i lost you




I agree, I think she's also saying "I'm sorry" because she couldn't protect her and couldn't save her. I still believe/hope she's out there somewhere for Helen's sake. :(



Yeah, all of the above probably. I'd say from the moment Helen chose to let Ashley help her in her work, the possibility that she'd lose her must have been in the back of her mind, so maybe also sorry for getting you involved in all of this.

I think it is all of the above. I know WishIwasJoes joked about it but I also had a brief moment where I thought it was also a bit of AT saying she was sorry to EU for the decision they made. I think, much like when MS left SG1, the tears were real.

jckfan55
October 28th, 2009, 07:46 AM
Hmm, you know, if there was more of that - actually dealing with rebuilding the network - I would have liked it better. And it would still convey that feeling you talk about, which I think is a wonderful concept. I just didn't like the execution.

Or perhaps I just wasn't that wild about this particular story... Either way, it felt jarring to me instead, drawing away from the main storyline instead of feeding it.
Yes, that would have been good. maybe they thought they needed more of a "chase" story to counterbalance the emotional one. And to bring kate :rolleyes: in.


i know the show will have to lighten up (we'd be constantly depressed if it didn't :p), but i hope ashley's death isn't quickly ignored. i *hated* it when they did that on sg1 (janet), and seeing as this was helen DAUGHTER, i really, really hope it's brought up once in a while. (little things, like kate trying to go in ash's room and helen angrily stopping her).
And with Helen, it would probably just take a glare.

And I really don't think Helen has totally moved on despite the memorial so I hope we have some references to Ashley. Helen herself said she doesn't deal with death very well.

I'm really bummed by reports that EU has really left the show. But if it's for her health, well, you've gotta do what you've gotta do, as they say.

I have some hope reading AT's statement that there might be a way for Ash to be featured in S3. Even if we can get some flashbacks into a story we could get some more development of the mother/daughter relationship.

Skydiver
October 28th, 2009, 08:01 AM
I don't get a 'EU was kicked out' feeling. EU CHOSE to leave(had to leave for health reasons).

big difference.

It sucks and I'll miss the Helen/Ash relationship, but stuff like that happens in a show

ljscott
October 28th, 2009, 08:29 AM
I don't get a 'EU was kicked out' feeling. EU CHOSE to leave(had to leave for health reasons).

big difference.

It sucks and I'll miss the Helen/Ash relationship, but stuff like that happens in a show

Not sure where you heard that but I think the third episode had completed filming in April. She didn't get hurt until late May. I don't get the impression that the decision to leave was EU's. She was very excited about the new season (from the interviews I read) and they (DK, AT, and MW) said in the podcast that it was their decision (the network agreed) to go this route to deepen the story and the characters.

EH-T
October 28th, 2009, 09:01 AM
I don't get a 'EU was kicked out' feeling. EU CHOSE to leave(had to leave for health reasons).

big difference.

It sucks and I'll miss the Helen/Ash relationship, but stuff like that happens in a show

I did not mean my comment to mean that she was kicked out. We don't know what all was involved in the decision to leave. Could have been her choice, could have been a decision to kill the character because of what that would do to the other characters. Regardless of how it came about, I got the impression that everyone in the cast really likes each other so I just think AT was probably sad to see her go.

jelgate
October 28th, 2009, 09:25 AM
Not sure where you heard that but I think the third episode had completed filming in April. She didn't get hurt until late May. I don't get the impression that the decision to leave was EU's. She was very excited about the new season (from the interviews I read) and they (DK, AT, and MW) said in the podcast that it was their decision (the network agreed) to go this route to deepen the story and the characters.

Then sounds like nothing more then spin. I'm a cynic and say they didn't find the character interesting to write (look how little she got last season) and then killed her off

prsweety
October 28th, 2009, 10:07 AM
here is how i wished the Episode Eulogy would of played out....

Check out my video
http://www.vimeo.com/7302173

We will miss Ashley terribly.......we so hope they bring her back.....the mother/daughter relationship was just beginning to grow....

slurredspeech
October 28th, 2009, 10:08 AM
I'm a cynic and say they didn't find the character interesting to write (look how little she got last season) and then killed her off

Sadly, I would be inclined to agree.

AresLover452
October 28th, 2009, 11:39 AM
in the short amount of time she was on the show there was potential for her, but we hadn't warmed up to he character yet.

jckfan55
October 28th, 2009, 11:55 AM
So much of Ashley's appeal for me was the *potential* of expanding the mother-daughter relationship. Oh, Ashley, we hardly knew you. :(

If killing Ashley is supposed to "deepen the characters" as said above, we better see the emotional fallout in future episodes. Again, like others have said, it doesn't have to be whole episodes, but at least moments. The never talking about a dead character again that we tend to see on a lot of shows always bothers me. I know I talk about people I've lost--not just in a sad way, but if something reminds me of the person.
You know some situation could happen where Henry or Helen might say "Ashley would have liked that" or "remember that time Ash did..."

AresLover452
October 28th, 2009, 12:05 PM
i want to see more emotional fall out between John and Helen. Well, more for john because he want to be around his daughter, and now for her to die, it would be interesting to see how he curtails the Ripper urges he has.

EvenstarSRV
October 28th, 2009, 01:32 PM
I did not mean my comment to mean that she was kicked out. We don't know what all was involved in the decision to leave. Could have been her choice, could have been a decision to kill the character because of what that would do to the other characters. Regardless of how it came about, I got the impression that everyone in the cast really likes each other so I just think AT was probably sad to see her go.

Yeah, like you said, none of us here know the whole story, and snippets from interviews, podcasts, and such are not likely to paint a full picture of what happened. Until we get clarification from EU, AT, DK, etc, it's probably not really productive or fair to speculate on the reasons behind EU leaving the show.

And I agree with what you said earlier, I think the tears were real too. From what I've seen and read they all seem like a very tight-knit group, so however the decision came about I'm sure they were all saddened by it.

WishIwasJoes
October 28th, 2009, 01:35 PM
Then sounds like nothing more then spin. I'm a cynic and say they didn't find the character interesting to write (look how little she got last season) and then killed her off

:lol: I think I have been reading your post too much because I am starting to think like you! ;)

Jitter
October 28th, 2009, 04:55 PM
AWESOME episode! I was surprised that the different tones in the show worked together. And I found myself hating Kate just a little less this week. Still don't love her, but it's nice to despise her less.

Terrific performances by all. The chemistry between Druitt and Magnus is just amazing. Their scenes together were stellar. REALLY want to see more of their history together!

Regarding Ashley being seen in the credits...that could change. I think a friend who was a die-hard Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan once told me that not only did a character get killed off and the credits changed the following week - but the actress finally got her billing bumped up for the episode where her character was killed off in. How's that for harsh?





Yep Tara. She was in for 2 seasons and me ad the hubby were s happy to finally see her on the intro. But... that is Whedonese humour for you <_<

Actually btvs changed introes so often we never skipped it



I loved the episode. And I found the ugly fairy extremely funny too :P

AresLover452
October 28th, 2009, 05:06 PM
I loved the episode. And I found the ugly fairy extremely funny too :P



That fairy was irritating, in a funny sort of way. I was just waiting for the big guy to try and swat at him or something... lol!!

creed462
October 29th, 2009, 11:45 AM
Lets see Dana has got Jack the ripper painting a target on her. I think really miscalculated with this plan

AresLover452
October 29th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Lets see Dana has got Jack the ripper painting a target on her. I think really miscalculated with this plan

Right now Good Old Jack the Ripper is Dana's shadow.

shel
October 29th, 2009, 03:38 PM
Right now Good Old Jack the Ripper is Dana's shadow.

Bad for Dana...Not so much for us :cool: Go Ripper! :lol:

AresLover452
October 29th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Bad for Dana...Not so much for us :cool: Go Ripper! :lol:


Very very very good for Us!!!


Dana you are in trouble!!!

majorsal
October 29th, 2009, 05:34 PM
i'd like to see helen deal with dana, instead of john. OR, have john bring her to helen, expecting her to kill dana... helen's got the anger and hatred, but just can't coldbloodingly kill someone...

but i could see amanda taking a scene like this and making it magnificent! :D

AresLover452
October 29th, 2009, 06:09 PM
i'd like to see helen deal with dana, instead of john. OR, have john bring her to helen, expecting her to kill dana... helen's got the anger and hatred, but just can't coldbloodingly kill someone...

but i could see amanda taking a scene like this and making it magnificent! :D


John did taunt her with the idea, but she did shot him down. He said, secretly that she waits for him to tell her that he killed Dana.

Though if helen was presented with the choice, I do think she would do it. Dark desire for revenge runs in her blood right, only John is the one acting on it.

shel
October 29th, 2009, 06:28 PM
i'd like to see helen deal with dana, instead of john. OR, have john bring her to helen, expecting her to kill dana... helen's got the anger and hatred, but just can't coldbloodingly kill someone...

but i could see amanda taking a scene like this and making it magnificent! :D


I agree! If john brought dana to helen and she had dana right in front of her, there is no way helen could deny that.

Helen would have the opportunity right in front of her to do something and Amanda would make that scene amazing! :)

AresLover452
October 29th, 2009, 06:44 PM
I agree! If john brought dana to helen and she had dana right in front of her, there is no way helen could deny that.

Helen would have the opportunity right in front of her to do something and Amanda would make that scene amazing! :)


that's true.

Though how would she do it? Gun? or knife?

shel
October 29th, 2009, 07:03 PM
that's true.

Though how would she do it? Gun? or knife?


Well she could get creative and use both. :cool:

NurseFG
October 29th, 2009, 07:08 PM
I agree! If john brought dana to helen and she had dana right in front of her, there is no way helen could deny that.

Helen would have the opportunity right in front of her to do something and Amanda would make that scene amazing! :)

Lets hope we get to see that

AresLover452
October 29th, 2009, 07:15 PM
Well she could get creative and use both. :cool:

Or Helen could go with strangulation and watch the life drain out of her eyes as the oxygen gets deprived from her lungs and her brain.

Or helen could put her in the shoe with one of the those lizard creatures... you know one of the real nasty ones.

suse
October 29th, 2009, 07:45 PM
:) Time to rewatch Eulogy.

I like how the abnormal bonded with Kate.

Yes, I'll miss Ashley. But they (Amanda & Emilie) did a great job in that last scene and I really hope there are reverberation of what happened throughout the season.

:) And I really hope that EU comes back in a two-parter for S3. With the amount of time the seasons span we could easily get filled in on some missing time. And work it into something current for S3. :)

Suse

AresLover452
October 29th, 2009, 07:54 PM
:) Time to rewatch Eulogy.

I like how the abnormal bonded with Kate.

Yes, I'll miss Ashley. But they (Amanda & Emilie) did a great job in that last scene and I really hope there are reverberation of what happened throughout the season.

:) And I really hope that EU comes back in a two-parter for S3. With the amount of time the seasons span we could easily get filled in on some missing time. And work it into something current for S3. :)

Suse


that abnormal that bonded with kate... when it was a baby i thought it was a rabbit lizard. That's what it looked like. lol!! It was cute don't get me wrong, but it looked like a Rabbit/Lizard.


and ITA that the way AT and EU conveyed the last scene was very very exceptional and emotional. they did an amazing Job.