Did I miss something? [War Without End, Part II]

[TheHomegaMan]

So I've just gotten into B5, after years of talking about doing it. Definitely loving the show, and seeing what all the hype in fandom has been about.

That said, I recently caught War Without End, and the end blew me away. Sinclair taking B4 back in time? Genius. Using the chrysalis device to become a Minbari and take up the mantle of Valen? Excellent symmetry with Delenn's decision at the end of Season 1.

My only real lingering question at the end was, where the hell did the two Vorlons come from as Sinclair gave B4 to the Minbari? I noticed one of their suits looked a lot like the Vorlon's on Minbar at the start of WWOE Part I, and it appeared to be identical to that of the Vorlon who took on Kosh's role on B5.

Without spoiling anything beyond War Without End, I'm hoping somebody has a few answers. Where'd the two Vorlons with Sinclair/Valen come from? Is one of them the Vorlon from Minbar in Part I? Is that same Vorlon the one who replaced Kosh? Is the costuming department just short on Vorlon suits?

It was a hell of a 2 parter, and I'm hoping the rest of the series lives up!

[DigiFluid]

I never really thought about it, to be honest. Who knows how long the Minbari and the Vorlons have had some or any kind of diplomatic relations?

[Ice Wolf]

Vorlons were virtually immortal so it is quite possible they are the same Vorlons that have been seen before.

[TheHomegaMan]

Yeah, I didn't dismiss the possibility of them being the Vorlons already seen on screen.

The question remains, though: why did two unsuited Vorlons pop out next to Sinclair/Valen to greet the Minbari when they came to B4 in the previous war?

[s09119]

Yeah, I didn't dismiss the possibility of them being the Vorlons already seen on screen.

The question remains, though: why did two unsuited Vorlons pop out next to Sinclair/Valen to greet the Minbari when they came to B4 in the previous war?

Because the Minbari were the most-advanced allies of the Vorlons during the last Shadow War, so they were there as a way to sort of tell them that it was okay to accept the station from this strange being calling himself "Valen."

[Dimbo_Sama]

I checked the Lurker's Guide (greatest website in the world)

and this is what JMS said after it aired, keep in mind this is from the alt.tv forum from when the show was originally on the air.

# How did they know to meet Babylon 4? Prescience?
Well, the other obvious solution, since the Vorlons were then out and running around and actively involved in the war of that time period, he just sent out a signal, and they got there first.

# But they accepted the station right away.
Given that there's a massive war on, they just had their major starbase destroyed, they were left without a platform from which to stage the last part of the war...and here comes someone offering a 6 mile long, perfectly empty and eminently useable base for the last phase of the war, no charge...hell, I'd take him up on it too.

# Did the Minbari recognize the Vorlons?
They'd recognize them from legends of their own past, yes. But bear in mind that the Minbari and Vorlons had already been working together in the war effort.

# The Vorlons were called in after B4 arrived.

# When you see a LOT of vorlons together, that's when it's time to run like hell.

So that's it, they were called and they decided, 'Stroke'n 'eh we got us a new base of operations'

And clearly having them unsuited sends the message that this man can be trusted, and that they are throwing their full support behind him.


Also, as to some of your questions Homega.
The Vorlon on Minbar is Kosh's replacement (also known as Ulkesh)
and I don't know and I don't think anyone knows if either of those Vorlons are Ulkesh or not, but I'm pretty sure neither of them are Kosh.

[DigiFluid]

^^ nice contribution

[Cold Fuzz]

Also, as to some of your questions Homega.
The Vorlon on Minbar is Kosh's replacement (also known as Ulkesh)
and I don't know and I don't think anyone knows if either of those Vorlons are Ulkesh or not, but I'm pretty sure neither of them are Kosh.

In one of the B5 novels, To Dream in the City of Sorrows, Ulkesh actually has a less-than-friendly rapport with Ambassador Sinclair.

[nx01a]

My money is on Kosh and Ulkesh being the Vorlons on B4. They both get their first taste of humanity and, while Kosh warms to us, Ulkesh just remains cold.
Maybe Ulkesh was just jealous that Sinclair/Valen liked Kosh better.

[Cold Fuzz]

My money is on Kosh and Ulkesh being the Vorlons on B4. They both get their first taste of humanity and, while Kosh warms to us, Ulkesh just remains cold.
Maybe Ulkesh was just jealous that Sinclair/Valen liked Kosh better.

Very astute. Kosh was definitely atypical of the Vorlons, for various reasons. Ulkesh was a much more accurate representation for what they were truly like.

Spoiler:

In the Technomage novels, which are considered 100% canon (and also some of my favorite sci-fi books), you get interesting perspectives from both the Vorlons and the Shadows. Kosh cared much more about the younger races that any of the other Vorlons. By the time Ulkesh came into the picture, he and the other Vorlons believed that Kosh had come to care about them too much and had lost perspective. Ulkesh, in the books, was as cold and as unsympathetic to the younger races as the Shadows were.

[TheHomegaMan]

Thanks much, Fuzz!

I'd have to rewatch War Without End to ID the Vorlons from the suits, but Ulkesh's was very distinctive and I think I saw his on B4. Update: It looks like there are two Ulkesh suits for the Vorlons. No sign of Kosh, unless he's rocking a new wardrobe 1,000 years later.

As for Ulkesh being the more Vorlon of the two ambassadors, I figure that had to be the case. Between his interactions with Lyta versus Kosh's, the way Ulkesh reacted to the crew, and the scorched earth tactics the Vorlons adopted, it just became too obvious that Kosh had become attached to the younger races.

Final question: Do we ever get an onscreen answer to the meaning of Ulkesh's remark that "We are all Kosh"? Suggested reading?

[Cold Fuzz]

Thanks much, Fuzz!

I'd have to rewatch War Without End to ID the Vorlons from the suits, but Ulkesh's was very distinctive and I think I saw his on B4. Update: It looks like there are two Ulkesh suits for the Vorlons. No sign of Kosh, unless he's rocking a new wardrobe 1,000 years later.

As for Ulkesh being the more Vorlon of the two ambassadors, I figure that had to be the case. Between his interactions with Lyta versus Kosh's, the way Ulkesh reacted to the crew, and the scorched earth tactics the Vorlons adopted, it just became too obvious that Kosh had become attached to the younger races.

Final question: Do we ever get an onscreen answer to the meaning of Ulkesh's remark that "We are all Kosh"? Suggested reading?

You're very welcome! Now this line by Ulkesh was something that was never followed up on screen, probably because of the difficulty of rendering it effectively in dialogue. But there is a canonical answer in the Technomage novels.

Spoiler:

In the Technomage novels, Jeanne Cavelos goes much more in-depth about the perspectives on the Vorlons and the Shadows than was ever done on screen. In the book, you can actually get a sense of their respective thought processes, particularly the Drakh, the Shadow vessels and their thralls.

Now with the Vorlons, they're able to break off pieces of their consciousness and put it into other lifeforms. But it's the way they do it. It's described as a "tendril" or "tentacle" of thought. For example, when Kosh put a piece of himself in Sheridan, he sent out a "tendril" of thought (as it was described in the book) and it was still distinctly Kosh. Now when the rest of Kosh died, it was described as an intense metaphysical battle between order and chaos (think ascended beings battling each other), that had some degree of physicality to it. The Shadows sent energetic waves of chaos/entropy that was attempting to cancel out/slice the coherent ordered energy that was Kosh's physical body. When the Shadows were really dealing out the damage to Kosh, a tentacle of thought was "sliced" away and subsequently "flung" out towards Sheridan. The tendril that was left in Sheridan was aware of the death of the rest of Kosh's body and yet Kosh's basic consciousness remained intact in the tendril. However, his consciousness was greatly diminished in awareness and power in order to make sure that neither the Shadows nor the other Vorlons would sense his presence. The reason for this is to protect Sheridan. The books gave you the sense that for the Vorlons, thought somehow has physicality in the form of energy--a very intriguing idea.

Because of this, the Vorlons have achieved a form of hive mind through a kind of racial telepathic union. Now this is distinctly different to the kind of hive mind the Borg have in Star Trek. The individual Vorlon has a separate identity, yes, but Kosh's thoughts are known to the other Vorlons. How this odd telepathic communion is achieved isn't elaborated upon. Ulkesh and the others were very much aware of his demise but not exactly of the circumstances that lead to it happening.

Speaking of Vorlon physicality, the way they're described, you get the sense that they somehow evolved from cephalopods--that is, squids. They have two distinct rows of tentacles/tendrils (which can actually be seen in Falling Towards Apotheosis. I guess they were thinking Cthulu but made of light? It's an interesting twist to be sure.

I hope that helps to clarify.

[Rudolph]

In the DVD edition of 'The Gathering', I believe that when he is greated by (what he thinks is Sinclair) Kosh greets him with "Entil'zha Valen". So I like to think that it is Kosh on Babylon 4 and that he became a close friend and ally to Valen.

[Cold Fuzz]

In the DVD edition of 'The Gathering', I believe that when he is greated by (what he thinks is Sinclair) Kosh greets him with "Entil'zha Valen". So I like to think that it is Kosh on Babylon 4 and that he became a close friend and ally to Valen.

The canonical novels do indeed confirm that Kosh and Ulkesh were the Vorlons that greeted Valen's arrival in the previous Shadow War. Ironically, Ulkesh had a rather adversarial relationship with Ambassador Sinclair when they were both on Minbar.

[nx01a]

Ulkesh didn't like Valen before, and he certainly didn't like Sinclair then. Wow. There's so much temporal mechanics in that sentence...