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Matthew Jackson
October 4th, 2009, 12:43 PM
So the kid, I am not sure how you spell his name, solved this problem in the game he was playing.

The game apparently initiated a 'firing sequence'.

That means that somewhere in the game, the solution is precoded, otherwise it wouldn't be able to detect the correct answer.

So in short, this would leave me with the question: Why do they need someone to solve a problem, while apparently it's solved already?

Now Rush managed to convert the solution into something practical, as referred to in the first episode, but it doesn't explain my question.

Anyone else who found this quite confusing?

Helmar
October 4th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Perhaps he had to enter numbers before in the game to get the firing code.

PG15
October 4th, 2009, 01:24 PM
Well, I like to think of it like this.

You're given a binomial equation and you are charged with finding its roots. Let's say it's:

x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0

Your job is to find an universal equation that will solve for the roots. In order for the program to recognize that you've been successful, all it needs to do is take the results of your "magic universal equation" and plug them into the binomial to see if it equals zero; if it does, then you win; if it doesn't, you lose.

Obviously, the universal equation is the quadratic equation.

The analogy here is, whatever Eli had to do, the program knew what the results had to be; it just didn't know how it could get there; Eli provided that last bit of key info.

FallenAngelII
October 4th, 2009, 02:57 PM
Notice how absolutely nothing happened when Eli "solved" it. His character was returned to the start of the level. Maybe the game simply registered that he'd come up with a viable solution, not that he'd come up with the solution.

techwork
October 4th, 2009, 05:02 PM
Anyone that understands that even in the writing of computer-game say that it is impossible. Script in this moment simply unnatural and is targeted for fools.

Ashman
October 4th, 2009, 05:06 PM
But something did happen to Eli "He met Rush" anyway I give the credit to the Writers for pluging in a MMO in that way. Is that game possiblity StargateWorlds?

Colonel Sharp
October 4th, 2009, 05:07 PM
Well, I like to think of it like this.

You're given a binomial equation and you are charged with finding its roots. Let's say it's:

x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0

Your job is to find an universal equation that will solve for the roots. In order for the program to recognize that you've been successful, all it needs to do is take the results of your "magic universal equation" and plug them into the binomial to see if it equals zero; if it does, then you win; if it doesn't, you lose.

Obviously, the universal equation is the quadratic equation.

The analogy here is, whatever Eli had to do, the program knew what the results had to be; it just didn't know how it could get there; Eli provided that last bit of key info.
I was going to make an analogy involving integrals...but I think this pretty much covers it! :D


But something did happen to Eli "He met Rush" anyway I give the credit to the Writers for pluging in a MMO in that way. Is that game possiblity StargateWorlds?

It is. :)
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=69445

Trumpett
October 4th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Is it not possible the game took his answer and plugged it into a simulation. At which point it returned a positive result and sent the information on to the heads at the SGC. Makes sense to me and sounds pretty realistic. I am just saying.

PG15
October 4th, 2009, 11:36 PM
Anyone that understands that even in the writing of computer-game say that it is impossible. Script in this moment simply unnatural and is targeted for fools.

Huh?

K^2
October 5th, 2009, 03:48 AM
Anyone that understands that even in the writing of computer-game say that it is impossible. Script in this moment simply unnatural and is targeted for fools.
Having actually written a good number of programs for solving Physics problems, I can tell you that writing a program that checks if given answer is accurate is a LOT easier than writing a program that find the answer. In some cases, it can be proven that the solution cannot be found analytically, and yet equation for testing a solution exists.

wordenms
October 5th, 2009, 08:45 AM
SG-U is making a parallel here between Eli and Dr. Daniel Jackson from the original Stargate Movie.

Both characters were found in their own element.

Dr. Daniel Jackson was hired to translate the symbols on the coverstones and then to figure out the 7th symbol so we could start using the stargate.

It appears that Eli's problem was to determine what the 9th chevron would be on the Stargate so that the SG-U team could reach the destiny.

The formula for the "firing sequence" most likely had 9 symbols to enter just like the encoding sequence on the stargate.

Eli's formula worked in all aspects except for determining the correct point of origin. Since they were putting in their exact point of origin as the 9th chevron, the stargate could not connect. Only when using the symbol for earth could they make a connection to the Destiny.

Just like Daniel Jackson, Eli was very helpful in filling in the blanks to allow the team to use the stargate.

Eli is like Daniel for a new generation, ... except he doesn't have all the degrees, lol

techwork
October 5th, 2009, 12:21 PM
But something did happen to Eli "He met Rush" anyway I give the credit to the Writers for pluging in a MMO in that way. Is that game possiblity StargateWorlds?

Yes of course StargateWorlds (c) Macello
But ..... This is of little help. Sick people who really believe in the existence of Stargate - a little. They should rather make game release, until its engine is not completely obsolete. And try to make this game really Original.

thekillman
October 5th, 2009, 12:40 PM
the game was called Prometheus. and the equation was needed for the Dakara weapon. which tied into the core of the planet.


lol, stargate cleverly disguised into a game in stargate :D


the proof was needed to calibrate the right amount of power to dial the gate. i do not know what part has to be solved, but judging from what Rush did to start from the beginning, the amount of power was unknown

techwork
October 5th, 2009, 12:45 PM
Having actually written a good number of programs for solving Physics problems, I can tell you that writing a program that checks if given answer is accurate is a LOT easier than writing a program that find the answer. In some cases, it can be proven that the solution cannot be found analytically, and yet equation for testing a solution exists.

What ? You do understand that this physical model? You watched the development of a Industry Automated Process Control (APC) system ?
I see what is not. Personally, I watched the whole process of automation of the new company. And words such as SIMATIC Step 7 for me is not an empty sound. You can not create a program processing some operation if you do not know what kind of action. Especially in game form. The program handles the action to pre-assignment algorithm. But it is not possible to specify an unknown algorithm. And to create an algorithm is necessary to know how it works.;)

thekillman
October 5th, 2009, 12:54 PM
it is said by Scott that Rush was trying to solve the problem. so obviously some parts were there already. the game was probably communicating with a computer at the SGC or so, and the moment Eli put it in, the system checked, detected it to be right and then reset the level.

Ekiel
October 5th, 2009, 03:31 PM
What ? You do understand that this physical model? You watched the development of a Industry Automated Process Control (APC) system ?
I see what is not. Personally, I watched the whole process of automation of the new company. And words such as SIMATIC Step 7 for me is not an empty sound. You can not create a program processing some operation if you do not know what kind of action. Especially in game form. The program handles the action to pre-assignment algorithm. But it is not possible to specify an unknown algorithm. And to create an algorithm is necessary to know how it works.;)
It wasn't easy but I think I understood what you are saying ;)

Your point is: "They don't know for what input the gate will activate so they cannot check if the input is a correct solution."

We have to assume that they spend a fair amount of time working on this and should have a rough understanding of how a solution would look like. So they just check if the input fits what they know.

They didn't really try to find a solution with this game but rather find someone who had the potential to help them: They didn't just try the input on the gate and threw it away when it didn't work - instead they got the clever kid to work with them.

techwork
October 5th, 2009, 06:40 PM
It wasn't easy but I think I understood what you are saying ;)

Your point is: "They don't know for what input the gate will activate so they cannot check if the input is a correct solution."

We have to assume that they spend a fair amount of time working on this and should have a rough understanding of how a solution would look like. So they just check if the input fits what they know.

They didn't really try to find a solution with this game but rather find someone who had the potential to help them: They didn't just try the input on the gate and threw it away when it didn't work - instead they got the clever kid to work with them.

Pffff If it is difficult to understand something about what I said, and this is generally the simplest basic concept. You are at the same time and not properly understood. That means your level of knowledge in this area is too primitive. I'm too lazy to chew everything. So answer quote.

CARTER
He's right! Inventing technology with this level of sophistication would require a zero.
DANIEL
Why?
CARTER
Just trust me, it's a math thing.

And other What idiot would connect the management of nuclear power station to the Internet? I advise you to look less fairy-tale explosion of nuclear power plants over the Internet.
This is a reply to those who believe that something could be connected to the internet in the game.

Colonel Sharp
October 5th, 2009, 08:14 PM
Pffff If it is difficult to understand something about what I said, and this is generally the simplest basic concept. You are at the same time and not properly understood. That means your level of knowledge in this area is too primitive. I'm too lazy to chew everything. So answer quote.

CARTER
He's right! Inventing technology with this level of sophistication would require a zero.
DANIEL
Why?
CARTER
Just trust me, it's a math thing.

And other What idiot would connect the management of nuclear power station to the Internet? I advise you to look less fairy-tale explosion of nuclear power plants over the Internet.
This is a reply to those who believe that something could be connected to the internet in the game.
Please, if you're going to rip on someone for being "too primitive", learn how to use the English language correctly and avoid random capitalization. :)


Anyone looking to find an answer to whether this is possible please refer to PG-15's analogy post above. It is, indeed, possible that there could be a program incapable of solving a problem on its own, but capable of recognizing when a proper solution has been inputted.

techwork
October 6th, 2009, 12:53 PM
English language is too primitive to express their thoughts on it. It lacks half of the semantic construction presence in Russian. In English too little connotations for the transmission of ideas. It is too utilitarian. Language hucksters rather than philosophers. It is very difficult thinking in a more perfect language to simplify their thoughts to such a level. To do this necessary think, but I was too lazy to think. This forum is just entertainment.
Easier for me to be a country bumpkin ;).

Cycrow
October 6th, 2009, 02:06 PM
the game didn't need to know the solution. As you saw, when he entered it, nothing happened.

they never mentioned how long it was between the game and when Rush turned up

the solutions could have simply be stored on the server for rush to check through

Dutch_Razor
October 6th, 2009, 02:12 PM
What ? You do understand that this physical model? You watched the development of a Industry Automated Process Control (APC) system ?
I see what is not. Personally, I watched the whole process of automation of the new company. And words such as SIMATIC Step 7 for me is not an empty sound. You can not create a program processing some operation if you do not know what kind of action. Especially in game form. The program handles the action to pre-assignment algorithm. But it is not possible to specify an unknown algorithm. And to create an algorithm is necessary to know how it works.;)

As an engineer, you should know: nothing is impossible.

Phythagoras invented his theorem by thinking about the mathematics long and hard. When you have to invent a new mathematical theory, it is easy to test wether or not the physical implementation works.

Take a simple transfer function of 1/ms^2 for example. I know it is a bode plot that goes down with -2, but to get from plot to function is a whole other can of worms.

Rac80
October 7th, 2009, 10:58 AM
It's a rip-off of an 80's teen scifi flick called "the Last Starfighter" of course it makes no sense! ;)

techwork
October 7th, 2009, 04:30 PM
As an engineer, you should know: nothing is impossible.

Phythagoras invented his theorem by thinking about the mathematics long and hard. When you have to invent a new mathematical theory, it is easy to test wether or not the physical implementation works.

Take a simple transfer function of 1/ms^2 for example. I know it is a bode plot that goes down with -2, but to get from plot to function is a whole other can of worms.

As engineer i know : If It is not possible - this is not possible.In this case, the impossibility of action is determined not at stage solutions, but at stage of creating the real model, or an independent model of reality if easier. This inability on the level of basic concepts of logic and the laws of nature. If you do not agree with me then jump out the window in a skyscraper without special tools. Then, if we continue the chatter, I recognize that nothing is impossible.. ;):D

Encoder
October 7th, 2009, 06:30 PM
So the kid, I am not sure how you spell his name, solved this problem in the game he was playing.

The game apparently initiated a 'firing sequence'.

That means that somewhere in the game, the solution is precoded, otherwise it wouldn't be able to detect the correct answer.

So in short, this would leave me with the question: Why do they need someone to solve a problem, while apparently it's solved already?

Now Rush managed to convert the solution into something practical, as referred to in the first episode, but it doesn't explain my question.

Anyone else who found this quite confusing?

I believe the proof was there to be configured or solved so that a pre-determined result (ie. something that they were expecting to see) would eventuate.

This result would only be possible when certain variables were determined and only when all variables were correct could the equation make sense.

Inserting wrong values would unbalance the equation and therefore set the game to "FAIL".

Balancing the equation (aside from sending Eli back to the beginning of the level....MAJOR frustrating btw :P~~~) would trigger the message to Dr. Rush.

:sheppard:

Col. Tomorian
October 8th, 2009, 05:40 PM
That means that somewhere in the game, the solution is precoded, otherwise it wouldn't be able to detect the correct answer.

So in short, this would leave me with the question: Why do they need someone to solve a problem, while apparently it's solved already?

Now Rush managed to convert the solution into something practical, as referred to in the first episode, but it doesn't explain my question.

Anyone else who found this quite confusing?
That scene reminded me of "Terminator III's" explanation for Skynet. "It was software in cyberspace." Lol...

Serious note: Air was trying to mimic the Daniel Jackson moment in the original Stargate movie. Many elements were a cheap rip off of the movie. It was nothing original. It was a plagiarist way to create a new series.

The Prophet
October 8th, 2009, 05:54 PM
That scene reminded me of "Terminator III's" explanation for Skynet. "It was software in cyberspace." Lol...

Serious note: Air was trying to mimic the Daniel Jackson moment in the original Stargate movie. Many elements were a cheap rip off of the movie. It was nothing original. It was a plagiarist way to create a new series.

You can hardly plagerise something which you already own.

Col. Tomorian
October 8th, 2009, 06:21 PM
You can hardly plagiarize something which you already own.
Do they own the rights to the movie? I though it was a different division of MGM.

The Prophet
October 8th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Do they own the rights to the movie? I though it was a different division of MGM.

I think any division of MGM would be legally allowed to use movie material, so the writers would be allowed to use movie-created material (Jack, Daniel, Sha're, the Stargate idea) without having to credit Dean Devlin.

Col. Tomorian
October 8th, 2009, 07:16 PM
I think any division of MGM would be legally allowed to use movie material, so the writers would be allowed to use movie-created material (Jack, Daniel, Sha're, the Stargate idea) without having to credit Dean Devlin.
Some film and tv companies do not. Smallville for example. They are always fighting over character usage rights and such. One side of the company fights the other side over what they can and cannot use.

PG15
October 8th, 2009, 11:10 PM
Serious note: Air was trying to mimic the Daniel Jackson moment in the original Stargate movie. Many elements were a cheap rip off of the movie. It was nothing original. It was a plagiarist way to create a new series.

Just as well; Rising was a basic copy of Children of the Gods anyway.

Dutch_Razor
October 9th, 2009, 04:08 PM
As engineer i know : If It is not possible - this is not possible.In this case, the impossibility of action is determined not at stage solutions, but at stage of creating the real model, or an independent model of reality if easier. This inability on the level of basic concepts of logic and the laws of nature. If you do not agree with me then jump out the window in a skyscraper without special tools. Then, if we continue the chatter, I recognize that nothing is impossible.. ;):D

Have at it http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17113222/

escyos
November 4th, 2009, 11:45 AM
So the kid, I am not sure how you spell his name, solved this problem in the game he was playing.

The game apparently initiated a 'firing sequence'.

That means that somewhere in the game, the solution is precoded, otherwise it wouldn't be able to detect the correct answer.

So in short, this would leave me with the question: Why do they need someone to solve a problem, while apparently it's solved already?

Now Rush managed to convert the solution into something practical, as referred to in the first episode, but it doesn't explain my question.

Anyone else who found this quite confusing?

he discovered the answer the night before and used it in the game, rush must have been looking over everyones answers and discovered eli had found the solution

Paradoxum
December 2nd, 2009, 09:50 AM
has anyone seen The Last Starfighter? hehe

FromOutside
December 18th, 2009, 11:09 AM
In this case, the impossibility of action is determined not at stage solutions, but at stage of creating the real model, or an independent model of reality if easier. This inability on the level of basic concepts of logic and the laws of nature.

Models are not my cup of tea, but why would they necessarily need to create the model instead of, for example, using (the parts of) the solution or answer as a part of another, already solved problem and by that knowing if the answer is wrong or maybe right?

Just asking :)

Targust
January 27th, 2010, 05:09 PM
SG-U is making a parallel here between Eli and Dr. Daniel Jackson from the original Stargate Movie.

Both characters were found in their own element.

Dr. Daniel Jackson was hired to translate the symbols on the coverstones and then to figure out the 7th symbol so we could start using the stargate.

It appears that Eli's problem was to determine what the 9th chevron would be on the Stargate so that the SG-U team could reach the destiny.

The formula for the "firing sequence" most likely had 9 symbols to enter just like the encoding sequence on the stargate.

Eli's formula worked in all aspects except for determining the correct point of origin. Since they were putting in their exact point of origin as the 9th chevron, the stargate could not connect. Only when using the symbol for earth could they make a connection to the Destiny.

Just like Daniel Jackson, Eli was very helpful in filling in the blanks to allow the team to use the stargate.

Eli is like Daniel for a new generation, ... except he doesn't have all the degrees, lol

Remember, they had no idea what the 9th chevron did or went to. They had no idea it was Destiny, or even a ship, until they got there.