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Gmandex
October 3rd, 2009, 10:20 AM
Why didn't the Hammond use it's Asgard beam weapons to take out the three Ha'taks? Why would the crew just let the Ha'taks demolish the Icarus Base?

thekillman
October 3rd, 2009, 10:21 AM
it was an ambush. whatever the case, the attackers were well-informed, managing to take out the APBW's and finding the base in the first place

DaMulta
October 3rd, 2009, 10:23 AM
Maybe that ship didn't have the beam weapon installed. We also don't know how much more advanced the enemies have gotten from the last movie of SG-1.

Rise Of The Phoenix
October 3rd, 2009, 11:28 AM
It just wasn't dealt with in Air.
Like the guys above have said there are two likely culprits, either the Plasma beam weapons were knocked offline in the initial attack or they weren't yet installed on the Hammond, apparently Joe Malozzi has said Air takes place shortly after the Atlantis finale, since it wasn't finished then and ready to engage the Wraith it's likely it still wasn't in a completely finished state, you know basic essentials for field work.

We still haven't been told exactly how they're produced or whether Earth has a matter converter outside of Odyssey so maybe they just don't the tech available on Earth with Odyssey being away on it's secret mission during Enemy At The Gate, although it did seem quite easy for Sam to modify Odyssey's transporters in Unending, so perhaps it's a case of the specs or whatever is needed to provide a template to construct them just wasn't available, not sure of a definitive reason TBH that's about all I can think of right now.

RepliVeggie
October 3rd, 2009, 11:46 AM
The ship wasn't finished. It didn't even have the shields our other ships have obviously. No Ha'tak not even Anubis' advanced ship could dent the shields.

joeynox
October 3rd, 2009, 01:03 PM
in the trailers they showed jack in the base sitting next to a wall during the attack but i didnt see him in the show on the base .

Azriel
October 3rd, 2009, 01:54 PM
The ship wasn't finished. It didn't even have the shields our other ships have obviously. No Ha'tak not even Anubis' advanced ship could dent the shields.

I highly doubt they'd install one type of shield only to then replace it with another type, it would make no sense. Those were Asgard shields, no doubt. As for why they were taking a lot of damage, well not using their APBWs didn't help, I suspect the most likely explanation was they were knocked offline in the opening stages of the battle, it's a little bizarre this is never stated on screen though.

As for the shields taking damage like that, bear in mind Hammond was ambushed, probably took initial damage before she got her shields up, she probably also had to hold position between the Hatak and the planet in order to 1). Shoot down attacking gliders and 2). Run interference in order to soak up some of the enemies weapons fire in order to protect Icarus base. This would require them to essentially sit there instead of taking evasive action.

It's also worth noting that a 304 has gone up against 3 Hatak before (Off the Grid) with similar results, in fact Odyssey took damage a lot sooner then Hammond.

Just some thoughts. But with the exception of the APBWs, I would say the Hammond was more or less finished. What puzzles me though are the unusually long travel times to a destination 21 LY away and the pink coloured HD window.

the-alguroan
October 3rd, 2009, 04:51 PM
the hammond stood there for six minutes after getting hit by the premitive attack, and the numerous gliders, which in my book is a partal win. just wish the hatack fleet had been bigger and they stated a reason for not using the APBW.

Duke Flipside
October 3rd, 2009, 05:47 PM
The Hammond definitely had Asgard shields, as halfway through the attack Sam reported "Our shields are holding". As for the beam weapons... If it's true that this is just after Enemy at the Gate, then the Hammond could have reasonably been pressed into service without them; the Odyssey might still be on that mysterious "top secret mission", and the Daedalus/Apollo/Sun Tzu might still be undergoing repairs. The Hammond's not going far, and it's only taking a few civilians to a secret base nobody knows about; all it needs is a basic interstellar hyperdrive (rather than the faster intergalactic drives). Worst case scenario the shields only have to hold out long enough for it to scurry back to Earth and the umbrella of the Atlantis drones. It's not like anybody's going to be blowing up planets...

RepliVeggie
October 4th, 2009, 12:53 AM
I dunno if those were the Asgard shields. If they were then even 6 hours of Ha'tak fire wouldn't damage the shields. Those shields can take Wraith hive fire without much trouble. Ha'tak ships are about the least advance war ships in the SG Universe (pun not intended at first)

Quadhelix
October 4th, 2009, 05:51 AM
I dunno if those were the Asgard shields. If they were then even 6 hours of Ha'tak fire wouldn't damage the shields. Those shields can take Wraith hive fire without much trouble. Ha'tak ships are about the least advance war ships in the SG Universe (pun not intended at first) ...except that, as already noted, the Hammond fared better than Asgard-shield-equipped Odyssey under similar conditions ("Off The Grid").

After all, "least advanced" doesn't necessarily mean "harmless."

Buba uognarf
October 4th, 2009, 09:46 AM
The ship wasn't finished. It didn't even have the shields our other ships have obviously. No Ha'tak not even Anubis' advanced ship could dent the shields.


I dunno if those were the Asgard shields. If they were then even 6 hours of Ha'tak fire wouldn't damage the shields. Those shields can take Wraith hive fire without much trouble. Ha'tak ships are about the least advance war ships in the SG Universe (pun not intended at first)

Sorry but thats rubbish. We've seen Ha'tak weapons damage 304 shields before, in Off the Grid and the episode where the Odyssesy is captured. The Hammond lasted probably about 10-12 minutes against 3 Ha'taks which is actually quite impressive considering how long it takes Ha'taks to blow each other up.

For comparison in 'The Last Man' the Phoenix e.g. Hammond was virtually crippled by 3 Hives in less than a minute and half with only sporadic fire from each ship. So knowing this we can say that Hives have roughly 8'ish times the firepower of a Ha'tak which is probably about right.

Also remember our ships are all underpowered anyway so its perfectly feasible for 3 Ha'taks to heavily damage a 304 in 10-12 minutes.

The beams probably weren't installed yet as the initial attack from the Ha'taks didn't appear to be doing anything to the Hammond.

EternalAlteran
October 4th, 2009, 11:26 AM
Well the beams were probably not installed, because there is no other reason why they weren't used. If the Ha'taks were closer to the planet than the Hammond, then it would make sense that they weren't used. Because a shot hitting the planet could cause the same event the Staff Canons did.

As for the shields, they are probably the Asgard shield on the other vessels. They were holding for most of the time without any damage to the ship. There were no sparks on the brigde and there was no damage to the exterior of the ships.

I though it was very strange that the Hammond only fired it's railguns once on a glider. They could have fired it constantly at the Ha'taks gliderbays.

Azriel
October 4th, 2009, 11:31 AM
As stated, 304s can soak up the damage, but not forever. In Allies, the Daedalus hung in a firefight with 2 Hiveships for about I'd say 10 or so minutes, granted she took initial damage but I'm assuming her shields weren't initially damaged given how long they held to begin with. In Last Man, Phoenix stood toe to toe with 3 Hiveships for probably half that time. In Off the Grid, Odyssey took nearly 10% damage in the opening seconds of the battle. To the best of my knowledge, I cannot recall a single episode where we've held in a battle for longer then 20 minutes (Be All My Sins... may be an exception?).

I also refer to my earlier point about the Hammond most likely needing to sit in a stationary position (or near enough) between the enemy and the planet.

Buba uognarf
October 4th, 2009, 01:24 PM
As stated, 304s can soak up the damage, but not forever. In Allies, the Daedalus hung in a firefight with 2 Hiveships for about I'd say 10 or so minutes, granted she took initial damage but I'm assuming her shields weren't initially damaged given how long they held to begin with. In Last Man, Phoenix stood toe to toe with 3 Hiveships for probably half that time. In Off the Grid, Odyssey took nearly 10% damage in the opening seconds of the battle. To the best of my knowledge, I cannot recall a single episode where we've held in a battle for longer then 20 minutes (Be All My Sins... may be an exception?).

I also refer to my earlier point about the Hammond most likely needing to sit in a stationary position (or near enough) between the enemy and the planet.

Massive exaggeration of Asgard shields.

I haven't actually timed Allies but in 'The Last Man' the Phoenix lasted about 1 min 20 seconds before she crashed and was largely disabled in the first volly.

The battle in BAMSR was very short, Rodney even made a comment on the plan not taking more than a minute.

Basically the 10+ minutes the Hammond lasted against 3 enemy ships was infact pretty good.

Azriel
October 4th, 2009, 01:45 PM
Mainly estimates. I just timed the fight in Allies and it actually clocks in at 3 minutes, though this is going by the time of the episode and of course probably wouldn't reflect the actual time the battle was going on for. But for arguments sake, call it 3 minutes.

Worth noting as well, when the Phoenix was attacked, she wasn't hit with her shields down either, so all that damage was done with her shields up. Three hives, 1 minute 20 seconds, and given the Phoenix had beam weapons as well. Point is, our shields certainly can't hold up for extended periods (the battle in Air is probably the best a 304 has performed).

Buba uognarf
October 4th, 2009, 02:00 PM
Mainly estimates. I just timed the fight in Allies and it actually clocks in at 3 minutes, though this is going by the time of the episode and of course probably wouldn't reflect the actual time the battle was going on for. But for arguments sake, call it 3 minutes.

Worth noting as well, when the Phoenix was attacked, she wasn't hit with her shields down either, so all that damage was done with her shields up. Three hives, 1 minute 20 seconds, and given the Phoenix had beam weapons as well. Point is, our shields certainly can't hold up for extended periods (the battle in Air is probably the best a 304 has performed).

Well it may actually be shorter than 3 minutes, events on screen could be happened simultaneously but regardless you are right on your final point the Hammond's shields preformed well.

techwork
October 4th, 2009, 05:07 PM
Hattak is Russian and Russian spy deactivated the asgard system. ;) This is the most logical explanation. No worse than the others.:D

Col.Foley
October 4th, 2009, 07:51 PM
I have always assumed that the Asgard shields and the beam weapons were quite energy intensive.
If that is the case then Carter had to make a choice...try and fight three of them and get the shields depleted, or hold them off and prevent them from turning their main guns on the Icarus base?

Lizard1978
October 5th, 2009, 11:16 AM
I looked to see if there was another thread discussing this, but couldn't find a specific one, maybe its discussed in the 200+ pages of general discussion posts.

My thoughts... If there wasn't a spy on the base or at SGC, could it just be that whoever attacked picked up the huge power surge/signature that was created to dial the 9chevron address. When they picked up the power signature during a routine scan, they may have been concerned as to the use of such power, maybe worried that it was a massive weapon being developed and decided just to quickly destroy it.

Or could it be someone from the future that has come back to try to stop us before getting onto the destiny because we get ourselves into loads of trouble and destroying that timeline was the only thing they could think of that would stop everything before it started.

I can't remeber when they discovered the address in the ancient texts, was it even mentioned in another series? if so who else may have had access to that information?

Cecil Brax
October 5th, 2009, 11:20 AM
Honestly,

I think someone on the ship is a spy. I got the impression they were setting up for that and I think there was some mention about a spy in future episode guides, if I remember correctly.

There was a deleted scene in Stargate Atlantis where they were talking about the 9th Chevron in Season 5. I only watched it once so I can't tell you much about the details but they said it was something they had to take out though they planned to use it as a tie in to the new series.

I believe that scene was between McKay and Zelenka. (Did I spell that right?)

- CB

P-90_177
October 5th, 2009, 11:20 AM
They stated in the episode that it was the lucian alliance.

there's also apparently a spy for the alliance on board the destiny

As for the address........this is the first time we've heard of it. It was simply and excuse for where the address came from.

jp0d009
October 5th, 2009, 11:48 AM
They guessed, not stated, that it was the Lucian alliance:

YOUNG: What've you got, Colonel? Lucian Alliance?

CARTER: That would be my guess. They haven't introduced themselves. They started shooting the minute they came out of hyperspace. Our shields are holding, but we're not the target.

[From gateworlds transcript of the episode]

freyr's mother
October 5th, 2009, 11:54 AM
Um, how do these people end up working for the US government if they have no idea what kind of credentials, paperwork and sorts are needed for a government job...not to mention a background check and references. It seems pretty retarded that there would be a spy on board the destiny.

thekillman
October 5th, 2009, 11:59 AM
actually, we know the goauld had brainwashing technology that only activated due to some stimulation. someone like Young could've done something without anyone knowing. telford too, anyone. that's the beautifull thing.

besides, if the goauld used their technology properly, earth would've been a barren wasteland by season 2

Adrian_Jackson
October 5th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Um, how do these people end up working for the US government if they have no idea what kind of credentials, paperwork and sorts are needed for a government job...not to mention a background check and references. It seems pretty retarded that there would be a spy on board the destiny.

Zatarcs.

ipfnd
October 5th, 2009, 12:29 PM
"They stated in the episode that it was the lucian alliance."

actually they didn't definitively state is was the Lucian Alliance. I think Carter and Jack speculated about a couple possibilities and one of them was the Lucian Alliance, if my failing memory serves me right.

Cecil Brax
October 5th, 2009, 12:37 PM
"They stated in the episode that it was the lucian alliance."

actually they didn't definitively state is was the Lucian Alliance. I think Carter and Jack speculated about a couple possibilities and one of them was the Lucian Alliance, if my failing memory serves me right.

Actually, you're completely right. They never once said who it was specifically, and nobody saw any ground troops before the planet blew up.

theStormWeaver
October 5th, 2009, 12:46 PM
One character asks Carter if its the Lucian Alliance, she says something like "Looks like it, but they haven't said hello yet. They opened fire the moment they dropped out of hyperspace."

Personally, I think it was the Lucian Alliance drawn by the energy surge, hoping to either take the cause of the surge or destroy it. However, we've never seen the Lucian Alliance have large numbers of ground troops, so who knows.

Its possible it was a Goa'uld trying to gain power in the new galactic scene.

thekillman
October 5th, 2009, 12:52 PM
Icarus base attack; Who and Why?

i think the only way to answer this, is to tune in coming friday

younger
October 5th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Icarus base attack; Who and Why?

we already know who is Lucian Alliance but we don't know why they attack the base. i mean what their interest with Destiny?

jelgate
October 5th, 2009, 02:30 PM
we already know who is Lucian Alliance but we don't know why they attack the base. i mean what their interest with Destiny?

They didn't know about the Destiny since we didn't even know about it. In the Lucian Alliance's mind they are at war with us. And in war enemies attack secret bases just out of fear of what they are developing. It could be that simple but I bet its not

RepliVeggie
October 5th, 2009, 02:44 PM
I believe Jelgate has it right. They simply attacked and sent in ground troops to figure out what we are doing.

kymeric
October 5th, 2009, 03:23 PM
I suspect theyll be getting back to it, its a plot... not a plot hole. Patience is a virtue.

Pepermint Jaffa
October 5th, 2009, 03:41 PM
Ok, based on the new information today with respect to the casting of Rhona Mitra...

She’ll play Kiva, described by the network as “a strong-willed commander of an alien incursion force. Kiva will do whatever it takes to safeguard her people even if it is at the ultimate expense of the Destiny crew.”

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2009/10/rhona-mitra-cast-in-recurring-sgu-role/

...here's my theory...

The Lucian Alliance (or whoever attacked Icarus) were also trying to figure out how to dial the 9th Chevron. When they learned that the humans were close to figuring it out (perhaps through a spy), they attacked Icarus. That might explain why the attack came so soon after Eli solved the math equation, because that is the triggering event that told the Lucian Alliance that the humans were close to figuring it out.

From the news release about Mitra quoted above, it says she leads an "incursion force." I thought TPTB said they wouldn't encounter humanoid aliens, at least in S1, so could this incursion force be coming through the Stargate from our galaxy? Could it be that the LA finally figures out how to dial the 9th Chevron too and this incursion force are people the LA send?

Anyway, that's just something that popped into my head after I read about the casting of Rhona Mitra. But whatever the explanation is about who attacked Icarus and why, I think they'll get more into it in later episodes.

Gelasius
October 5th, 2009, 03:52 PM
I am going to guess and say its some Rebel Jaffa or Rogue Tok'ra

techwork
October 5th, 2009, 04:02 PM
Russian from Hyperion :) why not ? Russian communist partisan who want to restore the Soviet Union :D