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Madwelshboy
September 20th, 2009, 07:55 AM
ADRIANNE PALICIKI GUEST STARS ó Not sure he trusts himself anymore, Sam (Jared Padalecki) decides to give up hunting, but a late-night visitor (guest star Adrianne Palicki) wonít let him off the hook that easily. Dean (Jensen Ackles), intent on stopping the Apocalypse, continues hunting on his own and teams up with Castiel (Misha Collins) to find the Archangel Raphael, as Castiel believes Raphael knows Godís location. Miller Tobin directed the episode written by Jeremy Carver (#503).

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv170/madwelsboy/332a3b4388c3a6b6a130401293265777.jpg http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv170/madwelsboy/531ab0c0d0efbfda5b255fb0021fc2e5.jpg

POST VIEWING DISSCUSION ONLY

Jeffer
September 24th, 2009, 06:02 PM
OMG that was HUGE this season is gonna be so awesome

the fifth man
September 24th, 2009, 06:19 PM
OMG that was HUGE this season is gonna be so awesome

I definitely second that.:) I kind of knew that was coming at the end there. I have kind of thought that was supposed to be Sam's destiny.

Jeffer
September 25th, 2009, 01:21 AM
yeah as soon as i saw Lucifer i was thinking the same thing but before that i had no idea

Arative
September 25th, 2009, 06:13 AM
Really a good episode.

We find out that the higher angels have basically lost faith in God, while the lower angels still believe. Sam was suppose to be Lucifer's true vessel. Dean is Micheal's vessel. Either we have a huge show down between the brothers or we don't. Not sure what I want to see just yet.

I do know that when Dean and Sam hook back up, I hope the writers don't have Sam hide the fact that he was suppose to be Lucifer's vessel from Dean just to create drama or what ever.

The Cas and Dean team was pretty good. I get a kick out of the dry humor, with Cas being this really naive, unworldly straight-man who just doesn't get sarcasm or almost any social or cultural references that aren't Biblical. He keeps giving Dean these blank stares and quizzical looks when Dean uses them, which is like all the time, and I find it amusing. I'm waiting for Dean to "loosen him up a bit" and for Cas to start to try using slang and sarcasm, or making references to old movies and songs everyone's used to having a certain meaning. I'm sure he'll get it wrong because he probably still won't quite grasp the true meaning of most of the sayings. Cas with the hooker just had me rolling. Specially when he just downed half a beer and then with her running out after Cas telling her it wasn't her fault.

Does anyone know if Anna is going to be back this season? I'd love to see a team up of Cas and Anna to find God.

iolanda
September 25th, 2009, 08:20 AM
I definitely second that.:) I kind of knew that was coming at the end there. I have kind of thought that was supposed to be Sam's destiny.

Really, I didn't see that one coming. I guessed, that Jessica was really Lucifer, because he approached Nick in a similar way, but that THIS was the result really surprised me.

Cas and Dean were great. It's incredible in which way Misha works mostly with his eyes. Has someone ever found a more "anxious" look like ever?

Aww, I loved this episodes like the ones before, though I had a hard time to understand the sequences with Raphael because of all the background noises..

Crichiel
September 25th, 2009, 08:26 AM
Here I go again. If my marathon posts each week are annoying you all, please let me know! :o There were a lot of little things in this ep I liked and then there were three big plotlines that interested me.

The little things:
-Continuity. Supernatural is so incredible at getting the details right in this regard...with the exception of scars, the boys should look like Halloween monsters by this point! But small things like the tattoos and Dean still worried about getting his necklace back make me smile.

-Castiel and Dean. Because it was played more like a one-shot episode with the two of them, I can get into the humour. And it WAS good humour. Castiel's confusion over Thelma and Louise and Teenage Mutant Ninja Angel references, the personal space line, Dean doing up his shirt getting him ready to be an FBI agent, how badly Castiel sucks at being an FBI agent (LOVED that!), Castiel's literal-ness ("How was it?" "Arid."), and the fabulous night out they had. Misha acted the best terrified look I've ever seen! And Dean's Prostitute 101 lesson!! :) As long as this isn't an every week thing, and it didn't seem like that where it is heading, I enjoy the break in tension.

-I like that the boys still check in with "Dad" (Bobby). And that while Bobby is still going to smack them upside the head when they need it, he isn't JUST a sarcastic smart-aleck (the end of the phone conversation when his voice softens and he tries to talk to Sam, "Sam. Hold on. Sam?" Also interesting that Castiel went through Bobby to find Dean. And that Bobby told him. And that he DIDN'T tell Castiel that Sam had left.

-The other hunters. Good to broaden the world of hunting a bit again, as long as it doesn't get into the boys going on group hunts or anything. I like their Lone Wolves status. But seeing how different hunters would react to Sam and his problem was cool. They actually wanted to dose him to "Hulk out" and kill for them?! Wow.

-Love the lightning wings that Raphael has.

-I like Jensen's 'facial acting' in the scene where they trap Raphael. If you go back and look, yes it is obvious towards the end of the scene what he is doing, but from the time he walks into the room, he gives a lot of subtle clues: quick glances to the floor and to Cas, quick nervous looks each time he goads Raphael. It is fascinating to see Dean so wary of Raphael. He genuinely seems worried about what Raphael could do to him. Hence the great line, "Don't look at me, it was his idea!" BTW, even if Raphael were to bring him to Michael, Dean still has to give consent, so I wonder what Raphael was thinking they could do to make Dean give that consent this time that Zach didn't already try.

All right the three big points of this ep:

1.Watching Dean and Sam living their separate lives (song help again please, people. I loved that song in the beginning.). The montage really pinpoints the differences between the two brothers. I know Sam is purposefully avoiding hunting, but you can see here just how good he IS at fitting into society. Sure he is a loner and quiet, but he can still blend in with the general populace, find a way to live with 'civilians' and live a semi-normal, if kind of sad life. Can you imagine Dean taking any kind of 9-5 job, be it blue- or white-collar? This is so fascinating because we know how badly Sam has always wanted to just be part of the normal crowd and here we see, that had circumstances been different, he would have been really good at whatever non-supernatural occupation he had wanted to try his hand at.

Dean. Watching this sequence of Dean working, it struck me anew just how good Dean is at his job. He is: A. Hunter. Period. He is quieter than we are used to seeing him, but he is also focused and scarily efficient. He is the Mozart of hunting. But like Sam, it's kind of a sad life. Sam has co-workers around him, even if he keeps them at arm's length, but Dean is truly alone.

This leads to the comments Dean made to Cas at the end abouit family. First of all, the ep had a great through-line with absent fathers. Amazing how 3 years after John's death, he is still such a presence. And how because of that Dean (mister sceptic to the Divine), can teach Cas something about faith. And as for Dean's comments about Sam, they can come off as harsh, but personally, I totally understand them. I don't think he is truly HAPPIER without Sam (You can see this on his face after Cas leaves the car), I think it is just more of a relief to have that constant weight lifted, even for a moment. This is where I get what he is saying.

Trying not to stray into TMI, but in my life, I am kind of in Dean's position. We have a lot of family tension and I am the peacemaker. My siblings have their own lives and families to worry about, but I, being single, don't. So everyone figures I have the time and energy to mediate the drama. Last year, when I took my first vacation in 10 years (!), I couldn't believe how freeing it felt to have fun, doing something that I wanted to do without constantly heading off arguments! Did it mean that I didn't want to ever go back to my family? No. Without a family of my own, they are my lifeline, just like Dean. But for one weekend, it was nice to be free and I think that is where Dean's mindset is at the moment. He needs to take a step back, and take a deep breath before he charges back into the fray. And I believe it is this lack of emotional baggage that is making Dean such a laser-focused hunter right now.

2. God is dead. Hmmm. That's a pretty big statement to make. If they had left it at that, as a certainty, I would have had problems. But the writers are still being careful with the God idea, so I am still willing to wait and see where they are going with this. I think it is wonderful that Castiel still believes He is around when so many higher up angels are in doubt.

3. Sam as Lucifer's vessel. *sigh* This is the first time this season that I have been VERY unhappy with the writers. I do not like this idea in the least. What has been so compelling about the brothers from the time Sam gets his first visions in season one is that Sam has something special about him....and Dean doesn't. For this arc, Dean was the viewer. The 'normal' one who could never truly understand or relate to what Sam has to deal with every day.

It was fascinating to watch Sam with his struggle to deal with the fact that he could never get rid of this thing inside him. And it was just as fascinating to watch Dean struggle to accept and support his brotherknowing he could never understand.

Later it was Dean struggling with his guilt over what he did in Hell, something Sam could never understand, while Sam struggled with guilt over what he was doing with Ruby, something Dean would never understand. In Sympathy for the Devil, we see it turn again. Dean now has to struggle with the revelation that he has a bullseye on his back for every angel and demon because he is to be the leader (or vessel to one) in a war he wants nothing to do with, and Sam would never be able to understand. Now Dean was 'special' and Sam was the viewer's POV. I was looking forward to watching how each of them dealt with this role reversal.

But now they share the same destiny of being the ultimate vessels, generals for opposing teams? Besides that I don't really want another story with them fighting on opposite sides (great drama for one season, but let's get back to fighting together) where is the viewers 'everyday' character to relate to? I thought it was going to be Sam this season, which would then serve to highlight Dean's struggles, which would then turn the attention back to Sam as he struggles to help Dean, and round and round it goes putting a spotlight on both brothers as they try to cope with totally DIFFERENT destinies. And a little sidenote here: if being host to a archangel then turns you into a drooling, psych-ward zombie, what's going to happen if BOTH brothers end up like that? :confused:

Nope. Don't like this twist of events...but as always, I'll reserve judgement until the end when I can look at it as a whole.

-Last note here on continuity and I'll put it in spoilers because it involves the preview for next week's episode. It is just a TINY little thing (I only saw it because I paused the tv on this frame) but just in case there is a die-hard anti-spoiler fan who doesn't even watch those for fear of having things spoiled.

Did you see the wall behind the people coming after Dean in the alley? It had "Croatoan" spray painted across it!!!! What other show picks up seemingly dropped storylines like Supernatural!! Man, I love this show! :):):)

LoneStar1836
September 25th, 2009, 08:47 AM
Here I go again. If my marathon posts each week are annoying you all, please let me know! :o There were a lot of little things in this ep I liked and then there were three big plotlines that interested me.Not at all. I like reading in depth review posts. :)



1.Watching Dean and Sam living their separate lives (song help again please, people. I loved that song in the beginning.). The montage really pinpoints the differences between the two brothers. Only my most favorite Lynyrd Skynyrd song...Simple Man! :cool:

I've been waiting for them to use that song. Such a great way to use it.



Sam was suppose to be Lucifer's true vessel. Dean is Micheal's vessel. Either we have a huge show down between the brothers or we don't. Not sure what I want to see just yet.Me either.

If they go there it could be great to watch but with terrible consequences. I know people were wanting a showdown between them in Lucifer Rising and got nothing, but this would pretty much destroy them...at least physically...course that could easily be handwaved if God shows up and repairs their bodies, but I don't know how they'd overcome the emotional stuff. But if they keep up the top notch quality of the eps so far this season, don't think I'll be disappointed either way.


I do know that when Dean and Sam hook back up, I hope the writers don't have Sam hide the fact that he was suppose to be Lucifer's vessel from Dean just to create drama or what ever.Agreed. It needs to be out in the open. Mix it up from the past seasons where they constantly hid things from each other.



-Castiel and Dean. Because it was played more like a one-shot episode with the two of them, I can get into the humour. And it WAS good humour. Castiel's confusion over Thelma and Louise and Teenage Mutant Ninja Angel references, the personal space line, Dean doing up his shirt getting him ready to be an FBI agent, how badly Castiel sucks at being an FBI agent (LOVED that!), Castiel's literal-ness ("How was it?" "Arid."), and the fabulous night out they had. Misha acted the best terrified look I've ever seen! And Dean's Prostitute 101 lesson!! :) As long as this isn't an every week thing, and it didn't seem like that where it is heading, I enjoy the break in tension.Same here. I thought that stuff was great. :D And it wasn't OTT, imo. Sometimes I think they can get a little carried away with the humor or have Dean throw in too many snarky references, but I think it was pretty well balanced in this ep...especially considering after I read the spoiler a while back that Dean was supposed to take Cas to a brothel...I kinda cringed.

MC did an excellent job throughout in this episode.



-The other hunters. Good to broaden the world of hunting a bit again, as long as it doesn't get into the boys going on group hunts or anything. I like their Lone Wolves status. But seeing how different hunters would react to Sam and his problem was cool. They actually wanted to dose him to "Hulk out" and kill for them?! Wow.I think this was tptb way of getting other hunters in on the mix as to what Sam did. I did think this was the weak point of the episode, but it was to make sure Sam couldn't just slide off into anonymity like he wanted to. Now hunters will be after him as well once word gets around.



2. God is dead. Hmmm. That's a pretty big statement to make. If they had left it at that, as a certainty, I would have had problems. But the writers are still being careful with the God idea, so I am still willing to wait and see where they are going with this. I think it is wonderful that Castiel still believes He is around when so many higher up angels are in doubt. This was a very interesting conversation. It let's you in on the mindset of the upper angel echelon. They don't know what the frell is going on and have lost faith in the mission. Tired of waiting around, they decided to move up the time table for what they were seemingly promised. In a way, I suppose I can't really blame them. If only they weren't such jackasses maybe I could sympathize with them a little more.

God is supposed to be more omnipotent and knowledgeable and infinite than we as humans can even conceive. So as a human, I don't see how God can die or be killed. Interesting that the angels who have supposedly seen God, think He's dead since apparently they haven't seen Him in a while.

I'm still sticking with it was God that brought Cas back and put the brothers on the plane...or at least the plane deal seems 100% Him since Lucifer's plan was to have Sam there as his vessel.




-Last note here on continuity and I'll put it in spoilers because it involves the preview for next week's episode. It is just a TINY little thing (I only saw it because I paused the tv on this frame) but just in case there is a die-hard anti-spoiler fan who doesn't even watch those for fear of having things spoiled.

Did you see the wall behind the people coming after Dean in the alley? It had "Croatoan" spray painted across it!!!! What other show picks up seemingly dropped storylines like Supernatural!! Man, I love this show! :):):):cool: Nice catch. :zelenka25:

Arative
September 25th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Crichiel, I kind of agree with your sentiment about Sam being the vessel. But I look for this to be an opportunity for Sam to redeem himself some how for releasing Lucifer.

Lucifer is a golden tongued angel, so he's going to use every trick in the book to get Sam to consent to be a vessel and its going to be a real test for Sam I think.

starg8fans
September 25th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Great analysis again, Crichiel! I for one really enjoy your marathon posts, so please keep them coming!


-Continuity. Supernatural is so incredible at getting the details right in this regard...with the exception of scars, the boys should look like Halloween monsters by this point! But small things like the tattoos and Dean still worried about getting his necklace back make me smile.


-Last note here on continuity and I'll put it in spoilers because it involves the preview for next week's episode. It is just a TINY little thing (I only saw it because I paused the tv on this frame) but just in case there is a die-hard anti-spoiler fan who doesn't even watch those for fear of having things spoiled.

Did you see the wall behind the people coming after Dean in the alley? It had "Croatoan" spray painted across it!!!! What other show picks up seemingly dropped storylines like Supernatural!! Man, I love this show! :):):)

I agree, the way developments go back to little things that happened seasons ago is just amazing. Having written lengthy fanfic myself, though, I can say that quite often it's not planned that way. It's just that you get a new idea for a twist, and thinking back you find the perfect hook to hang it on. It does say a lot about the writers' dedication to the show that they remember these events from way back. It's not always the case. (Remember how they messed up Teyla's father's name on SGA, to name only one example?) And about that spoiler item you mentioned, I'm thrilled myself to see that particular storylined continued and explained.


-The other hunters. Good to broaden the world of hunting a bit again, as long as it doesn't get into the boys going on group hunts or anything. I like their Lone Wolves status. But seeing how different hunters would react to Sam and his problem was cool. They actually wanted to dose him to "Hulk out" and kill for them?! Wow.

That was another great twist I didn't see coming at all. But it makes so much sense, of course the other hunters would love to have somebody in their ranks who can kick some serious demon butt.


Trying not to stray into TMI, but in my life, I am kind of in Dean's position. We have a lot of family tension and I am the peacemaker. My siblings have their own lives and families to worry about, but I, being single, don't. So everyone figures I have the time and energy to mediate the drama. Last year, when I took my first vacation in 10 years (!), I couldn't believe how freeing it felt to have fun, doing something that I wanted to do without constantly heading off arguments! Did it mean that I didn't want to ever go back to my family? No. Without a family of my own, they are my lifeline, just like Dean. But for one weekend, it was nice to be free and I think that is where Dean's mindset is at the moment. He needs to take a step back, and take a deep breath before he charges back into the fray. And I believe it is this lack of emotional baggage that is making Dean such a laser-focused hunter right now.

Thanks for sharing this. Seeing it from where you are puts Dean's comments into a whole different perspective. And it makes more sense this way, I'm sure that's exactly how he means it. You remember after the brothel how Dean said he had not laughed like that in years? It shows how much the whole story with Sammy weighed on him.


2. God is dead. Hmmm. That's a pretty big statement to make. If they had left it at that, as a certainty, I would have had problems. But the writers are still being careful with the God idea, so I am still willing to wait and see where they are going with this. I think it is wonderful that Castiel still believes He is around when so many higher up angels are in doubt.

Having read the spoilers for later in the season that God would make an actual appearance later on the show sort of quantified that statement for me.


3. Sam as Lucifer's vessel. *sigh* This is the first time this season that I have been VERY unhappy with the writers. I do not like this idea in the least. What has been so compelling about the brothers from the time Sam gets his first visions in season one is that Sam has something special about him....and Dean doesn't. For this arc, Dean was the viewer. The 'normal' one who could never truly understand or relate to what Sam has to deal with every day.

<snipped for length>

Nope. Don't like this twist of events...but as always, I'll reserve judgement until the end when I can look at it as a whole.


You make a very good point here, but I still tend to disagree. I don't see this so much as something that will push the brothers apart, but rather something that will bring them together. Basically, there's the same fate threatening them, and they both will try everything in their power to avoid it. It only makes sense for them to stick together and help each other.

As for the big showdown at the end, with (possessed) brother pitted against (possessed) brother, of course that was my first thought when I heard of this new development. But it would be the logical climax, and when have Kripke and the writers ever done what was expected? I'm sure they'll have a big surprise for us at the end, so like you said let's see what they make of this.

Now there was one thing I didn't get. Why did they have to leave the hospital to find Raffael? If Castiel wasn't expecting Raffael to take his former vessel right away, why did he pour the holy oil around him to contain him? And how did the vessel get to the house? That's the second time that I get the feeling - after the scene with the blood glyph in 5.01 - that they cut an important expository scene for time reasons.

Jeffer
September 25th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Now there was one thing I didn't get. Why did they have to leave the hospital to find Raffael? If Castiel wasn't expecting Raffael to take his former vessel right away, why did he pour the holy oil around him to contain him? And how did the vessel get to the house? That's the second time that I get the feeling - after the scene with the blood glyph in 5.01 - that they cut an important expository scene for time reasons.

I assumed that Cas has the same glyphs on his chest to hide him from angels and demons as such it would be hard for them to find him. So the scene in the Hospital was to let Raph know where they were. They knew he wouldn't just show but knew it would get his attention. As for him just appearing in the house Cas does that all the time with the brothers. I like to think of it as the Batman signature

LoneStar1836
September 25th, 2009, 11:36 AM
As for the big showdown at the end, with (possessed) brother pitted against (possessed) brother, of course that was my first thought when I heard of this new development. But it would be the logical climax, and when have Kripke and the writers ever done what was expected? I'm sure they'll have a big surprise for us at the end, so like you said let's see what they make of this.I do really wonder how this season will end now after this ep, but I don't know, tptb can be pretty straight forward with how they intend the season to end from the get go. S3 Dean was destined for Hell and in the end the Hell hounds got him.

While the showdown seems the obvious conclusion so we tend to think "Nah, they won't go for the obvious", but I'm not so sure. BUT we've got a long road ahead of us, so I'll have to wait and see how it plays out. :D


Now there was one thing I didn't get. Why did they have to leave the hospital to find Raffael? If Castiel wasn't expecting Raffael to take his former vessel right away, why did he pour the holy oil around him to contain him? And how did the vessel get to the house? That's the second time that I get the feeling - after the scene with the blood glyph in 5.01 - that they cut an important expository scene for time reasons.They got tired of waiting? Apparently they spent all day there waiting for Rafael to show up as Dean snarked that was a wasted day he would never get back.

I think Cas was expecting that maybe Rafael would show up when he first called him. So he took all precautions. Cas probably thought he wouldn't pass up the immediate opportunity to smite him again.

When they left the hospital, they put out the fire or someone discovered the fire and put it out thus Rafael was able to retake control of his vessel and go find Cas.

They may have cut something for time, as it was an abrupt cut, but with Dean making that remark, I thought it was pretty clear as to what went down and why the transition.

:)

iolanda
September 25th, 2009, 11:43 AM
I have one question: Where was the danger for Cas? The rite was quite easygoing, nothing dangerous at all. Did I miss something? Or was it all a cheat to lure Dean into taking him to the brothel?

P-90_177
September 25th, 2009, 11:58 AM
I have one question: Where was the danger for Cas? The rite was quite easygoing, nothing dangerous at all. Did I miss something? Or was it all a cheat to lure Dean into taking him to the brothel?

Probably cos if Raphiael had some how managed to get out of his ring of fire then the first thing he would have done was blow up Cas again.

starg8fans
September 25th, 2009, 12:14 PM
I do really wonder how this season will end now after this ep, but I don't know, tptb can be pretty straight forward with how they intend the season to end from the get go. S3 Dean was destined for Hell and in the end the Hell hounds got him.

True, but then everybody expected Dean to wiggle out of the deal at the last moment...


While the showdown seems the obvious conclusion so we tend to think "Nah, they won't go for the obvious", but I'm not so sure. BUT we've got a long road ahead of us, so I'll have to wait and see how it plays out. :D

Thank GOD we have a long road, or rather19 eps in front of us!


They got tired of waiting? Apparently they spent all day there waiting for Rafael to show up as Dean snarked that was a wasted day he would never get back.

I think Cas was expecting that maybe Rafael would show up when he first called him. So he took all precautions. Cas probably thought he wouldn't pass up the immediate opportunity to smite him again.

When they left the hospital, they put out the fire or someone discovered the fire and put it out thus Rafael was able to retake control of his vessel and go find Cas.

They may have cut something for time, as it was an abrupt cut, but with Dean making that remark, I thought it was pretty clear as to what went down and why the transition.

:)

Oh, is that what he said? I didn't quite catch it. Now that makes sense, thanks for pointing this out.


I have one question: Where was the danger for Cas? The rite was quite easygoing, nothing dangerous at all. Did I miss something? Or was it all a cheat to lure Dean into taking him to the brothel?

Maybe he wasn't sure the holy oil would really work. After all, he was dealing with an archangel, who - as Cas said himself - are the fiercest angels of all. And this was one who had killed him once before, too.

BTW, that was one of my favorite lines.

Dean: "Isn't that like trying to catch a hurricane with a butterfly net?"
Cas: "No. It's harder."

iolanda
September 25th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Dean: "Isn't that like trying to catch a hurricane with a butterfly net?"
Cas: "No. It's harder."

Especially in this context it was just too easy. I don't know, maybe there is something missing...

starg8fans
September 25th, 2009, 02:01 PM
Especially in this context it was just too easy. I don't know, maybe there is something missing...

You're right, the whole encounter was a bit anti-climatic after the way they described the danger before...

Something just crossed my mind about the discussion whether God is dead or not. I think he's still around, an Raphael is lying. True, it may have been Lucifer who resurrected Cas because he thought he could use him, but whoever saved Cas also put Dean and Sam on that plane. And that certainly wasn't Lucifer, he wanted Sam right there where he could take him as his vessel.

kennythewraith
September 25th, 2009, 02:24 PM
i loved this and strangely the best part or me was cas and dean at the um...whore house....lol cas's face while he was waiting was awesome.but back to more serious things....the end really was pretty cool....i wonder if sam deos eventually become the vessel...towars the end of the season perhaps?and then dean lets michael take him over?

flameling
September 25th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Good episode. There were so many great quotes in here, it isn't even funny. There's the ones in the brothels, the ones while trying to capture Raphael. It was very well written. I really hope we don't see Michael vs Lucifer (in Sam's body). I want to see God vs Lucifer, ending with Lucifer blowing up.

P-90_177
September 25th, 2009, 05:16 PM
There's just one thing i don't get.......Why can't another Archangel take on lucifer? Or even more to the point.....Why not all of the others? I mean is lucifer that much more powerful than the other angels and Michael is the only one who is just as powerful? But even then, can't they take him out if they all come at him at once?

flameling
September 25th, 2009, 05:59 PM
There's just one thing i don't get.......Why can't another Archangel take on lucifer? Or even more to the point.....Why not all of the others? I mean is lucifer that much more powerful than the other angels and Michael is the only one who is just as powerful? But even then, can't they take him out if they all come at him at once?

It's more then that. Michael can take Lucifer out AND lead heaven's armies. But he needs a vessel before he can act. I do believe that a common belief is that Michael leads God's armies and there forth it might be good for encouragement if Michael lead the charge. It was also stated the Michael is much powerful then Raphael, who's very appearance blacked out the eastern sea board. That's alot of power, just imagine what Michael can do. But I don't see why he can't do what Lucifer did and find a temporary vessel. and I specifically remember speculating that Lucifer had Nick's family killed. To me this is even more likely now because he referred to Nick as "plan B".

starg8fans
September 25th, 2009, 11:11 PM
There's just one thing i don't get.......Why can't another Archangel take on lucifer? Or even more to the point.....Why not all of the others? I mean is lucifer that much more powerful than the other angels and Michael is the only one who is just as powerful? But even then, can't they take him out if they all come at him at once?

Good question. There are two theories I came up with. Lucifer was described as 'the light bringer' and 'the most beautiful angel'. But angels have no shape, right? They appear as pure energy. And since Lucifer was the most beautiful he probably burned the brightest - hence his name - meaning that he was the most powerful as well.

Or Lucifer has had millennia in his entrapment to build his strength while the angels were using theirs to fight and keep order in the universe.

I think it is also safe to assume that Lucifer would not be alone in this battle, but that he has a whole 'hellish host' at his disposal he could summon.


It's more then that. Michael can take Lucifer out AND lead heaven's armies. But he needs a vessel before he can act. I do believe that a common belief is that Michael leads God's armies and there forth it might be good for encouragement if Michael lead the charge. It was also stated the Michael is much powerful then Raphael, who's very appearance blacked out the eastern sea board. That's alot of power, just imagine what Michael can do. But I don't see why he can't do what Lucifer did and find a temporary vessel. and I specifically remember speculating that Lucifer had Nick's family killed. To me this is even more likely now because he referred to Nick as "plan B".

Good thinking, it's not just Michael's powers but his position as the 'general' of all the heavenly forces that would change the battle in their favor.

What I don't get is why angels can only walk the earth in 'meatsuits', who slug out their battles rather than using their heavenly powers. Would their energy dissipate in our atmosphere? But I'm willing to let this go, since I enjoy the personifications a lot more than I would fx generated battles of lighting and smoke...

LoneStar1836
September 26th, 2009, 07:52 AM
What I don't get is why angels can only walk the earth in 'meatsuits', who slug out their battles rather than using their heavenly powers. Would their energy dissipate in our atmosphere? But I'm willing to let this go, since I enjoy the personifications a lot more than I would fx generated battles of lighting and smoke...Heh, maybe there are rules against it. You know how YED and others were always citing the demon rule book and how they couldn't do certain things unless certain protocol was followed.

But yeah, you'd think as powerful as they are, they could do whatever, but then it would make for a boring show, imo. They have to have someway to put limits on the use of beings with unimaginable powers. And requiring a body does that. Though it's not that much of a limitation since they can resurrect their vessel over and over at will making killing a vessel useless and not an option...otherwise Cas and Dean could have just done away with Rafael's when they had the chance.

Betelgeuze
September 26th, 2009, 11:44 AM
Does anyone else think there are some similarities between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer, and the relationship the brothers have with their fathers? Dean and Michael are the obedient sons while Sam and Lucifer rebelled against their fathers.


Heh, maybe there are rules against it. You know how YED and others were always citing the demon rule book and how they couldn't do certain things unless certain protocol was followed.

Maybe god made it so that the angels have to use a vessel when they are on Earth, because he didn't want the angels burning out the eyes of their younger siblings.


Good question. There are two theories I came up with. Lucifer was described as 'the light bringer' and 'the most beautiful angel'. But angels have no shape, right? They appear as pure energy. And since Lucifer was the most beautiful he probably burned the brightest - hence his name - meaning that he was the most powerful as well.

If i remember correctly the Bible says that the devil is the wisest, most powerful and most beautiful of the angels. He was so powerful that he thought that he should not have to serve god, but instead should be the ruler of heaven. Some of the other angels agreed and they all got kicked out of heaven. I'm not sure but the reason for Lucifer's fall (Lucifer refused to bow down to Adam) given Supernatural is actually from the Quor'an not the Bible.

kennythewraith
September 26th, 2009, 11:59 AM
Does anyone else think there are some similarities between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer, and the relationship the brothers have with their fathers? Dean and Michael are the obedient sons while Sam and Lucifer rebelled against their fathers.




ill tell you wat....im beginning to believe that we are going to see a sam vs dean battle to end the season...only sam will be host to lucifer and dean the host to michael.because if sam does agree,right now ill go with hes tricked to say yes,to be lucifers vessel,then dean would concent to michale using him as a vessel.

starg8fans
September 26th, 2009, 12:01 PM
Heh, maybe there are rules against it. You know how YED and others were always citing the demon rule book and how they couldn't do certain things unless certain protocol was followed.

But yeah, you'd think as powerful as they are, they could do whatever, but then it would make for a boring show, imo. They have to have someway to put limits on the use of begins with unimaginable powers. And requiring a body does that. Though it's not that much of a limitation since they can resurrect their vessel over and over at will making killing a vessel useless and not an option...otherwise Cas and Dean could have just done away with Rafael's when they had the chance.

Good point about 'protocol'. Guess there are certain ground rules, even for angels.

I don't think they can resurrect their vessels at will, though. Anna said she had to 'call in some favors' to get her meat suit back, and in Cas' case it was made quite clear that a very high power brought him back in this form - to the surprise of Cas himself.


Does anyone else think there are some similarities between Dean and Sam and Michael and Lucifer, and the relationship the brothers have with their fathers? Dean and Michael are the obedient sons while Sam and Lucifer rebelled against their fathers.

Hadn't thought about it this way yet, but you've convinced me.


Maybe god made it so that the angels have to use a vessel when they are on Earth, because he didn't want the angels burning out the eyes of their younger siblings.

If i remember correctly the Bible says that the devil is the wisest, most powerful and most beautiful of the angels. He was so powerful that he thought that he should not have to serve god, but instead should be the ruler of heaven. Some of the other angels agreed and they all got kicked out of heaven. I'm not sure but the reason for Lucifer's fall (Lucifer refused to bow down to Adam) given Supernatural is actually from the Quor'an not the Bible.

That's interesting. I don't know the bible that well, so I had just assumed this story was the one - when there are different versions across the different religions. Amazing what you learn through this show!

flameling
September 26th, 2009, 01:55 PM
After seeing what Raphael did to his vessel, imagine what Lucifer would do to Nick if he went for Sam. I feel sorry for him now.

LoneStar1836
September 26th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Good point about 'protocol'. Guess there are certain ground rules, even for angels.

I don't think they can resurrect their vessels at will, though. Anna said she had to 'call in some favors' to get her meat suit back, and in Cas' case it was made quite clear that a very high power brought him back in this form - to the surprise of Cas himself.Anna and Cas are lower angels. Maybe they don't have that kind of power. Course Cas saved Dean from Hell and brought him back to life...unless he just battled his way through the Pit to save Dean's soul and someone else did the bringing back to life thing :S Maybe if you get splatted into a million pieces and the only thing left is a tooth, then you can't bring your vessel back without some higher up help. lol.

I was going off of what Lucifer told Sam...that if Sam killed himself, he would just bring him back. And didn't Zach say the same thing to Dean?

Arative
September 26th, 2009, 05:45 PM
ill tell you wat....im beginning to believe that we are going to see a sam vs dean battle to end the season...only sam will be host to lucifer and dean the host to michael.because if sam does agree,right now ill go with hes tricked to say yes,to be lucifers vessel,then dean would concent to michale using him as a vessel.

I'm not so sure that there will be a fight between Dean and Sam as Michael and Lucifer. All things are pointing that way, which leads me to think that the writers won't take that direction.

I mean I expected, I think along with a lot of people, that Dean would get out of his deal with the demon at the end of season 3, except the writers let the deal go and Dean actually died.

I guess I'm not expecting the writers to go in the direction everyone expects them to go in.

Crichiel
September 26th, 2009, 06:07 PM
I'm not so sure that there will be a fight between Dean and Sam as Michael and Lucifer. All things are pointing that way, which leads me to think that the writers won't take that direction.

I mean I expected, I think along with a lot of people, that Dean would get out of his deal with the demon at the end of season 3, except the writers let the deal go and Dean actually died.

I guess I'm not expecting the writers to go in the direction everyone expects them to go in.

Yeah, I am sure there will be lots of things we didn't see coming, Kripke excels at that. Even though I am still not happy with the development (just can't get over how it dimishes Dean's uniqueness in being a vessel. Sam can now say, "Yeah yeah, you're a vessel. So am I...but to LUCIFER!! That's worse than YOU!"), I am curious to see who gives consent, and when, and for what reason.

If being Lucifer's vessel gives Sam a chance at redemption, as some of you are guessing, then wouldn't that mean he can't EVER give consent? If he gives in to Lucifer, even for the right reasons, that would mimic what he did by drinking demon blood 'for the bigger picture' and would mean that he didn't learn his lesson and WOULDN'T be redeeming himself, right? :confused:...my head hurts.

Here's a sort of off-topic question popped into my head while I was re-watching. Is Jensen a smoker? (I hope not :() I swear his voice is getting lower and more gravelly with each episode!! Seriously, pop in a DVD from the first season and listen to him, then watch these last few episodes again! What's up with that?!

LoneStar1836
September 26th, 2009, 06:53 PM
If being Lucifer's vessel gives Sam a chance at redemption, as some of you are guessing, then wouldn't that mean he can't EVER give consent? If he gives in to Lucifer, even for the right reasons, that would mimic what he did by drinking demon blood 'for the bigger picture' and would mean that he didn't learn his lesson and WOULDN'T be redeeming himself, right? :confused:...my head hurts.Are there any right reasons? :S

I can't think of any at the moment because it seems that if he does give in and Lucifer takes over, it will only make Lucifer more powerful.

I see nothing redeeming about Sam giving consent, no matter what the circumstances. I can't see him doing it because of some larger plan for the greater good because well, atm, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be a positive thing for our side...unless it's some self-sacrificial thing...which I don't really want either.

Crichiel
September 26th, 2009, 07:39 PM
Are there any right reasons? :S

I can't think of any at the moment because it seems that if he does give in and Lucifer takes over, it will only make Lucifer more powerful.

I see nothing redeeming about Sam giving consent, no matter what the circumstances. I can't see him doing it because of some larger plan for the greater good because well, atm, I can't imagine a scenario where it would be a positive thing for our side...unless it's some self-sacrificial thing...which I don't really want either.

That's the only kind of thing I can think of. Like he would agree to it because he thinks he would be able to control Lucifer, or that Lucifer would be vulnerable...I don't see either of these happening, though. That's why I don't quite get those who said it would be a redemption thing. Then again, I am not a very creative storyteller, so just because I can't think of it, that doesn't mean a whole lot! ;)

Betelgeuze
September 26th, 2009, 10:32 PM
I'm not so sure that there will be a fight between Dean and Sam as Michael and Lucifer. All things are pointing that way, which leads me to think that the writers won't take that direction.

Me neither. The show has always been about the brothers defeating the bad guys on their own. In an interviewhttp://io9.com/5265112/is-supernatural-for-atheists Sera Gamble says that the show is about humanism, if that is so than it will be the humanity of the characters that will allow them to win.

I must admit that i would like to see Dean being posessed by Michael. So far it has mostly been Sam who was posessed or under the influence of a demon.


That's the only kind of thing I can think of. Like he would agree to it because he thinks he would be able to control Lucifer, or that Lucifer would be vulnerable...I don't see either of these happening, though. That's why I don't quite get those who said it would be a redemption thing. Then again, I am not a very creative storyteller, so just because I can't think of it, that doesn't mean a whole lot!

What if Dean gets tricked into inviting Michael in, and Lucifer promises that if Sam becomes his vessel he will free Dean from Michael. The brothers have been shown to go through great lengths to save each other.

iolanda
September 27th, 2009, 02:26 AM
That's the only kind of thing I can think of. Like he would agree to it because he thinks he would be able to control Lucifer, or that Lucifer would be vulnerable...I don't see either of these happening, though. That's why I don't quite get those who said it would be a redemption thing. Then again, I am not a very creative storyteller, so just because I can't think of it, that doesn't mean a whole lot! ;)

Lucifer isn't really on the easy visible side of evil here, as well as the angels don't make an all over shiny good impression. Maybe Lucifer is able to convince Sam, that his goal is and was good, and that god forced him to be on the visible bad side.


.

Me neither. The show has always been about the brothers defeating the bad guys on their own. In an interviewhttp://io9.com/5265112/is-supernatural-for-atheists Sera Gamble says that the show is about humanism, if that is so than it will be the humanity of the characters that will allow them to win.

I must admit that i would like to see Dean being posessed by Michael. So far it has mostly been Sam who was posessed or under the influence of a demon.


What if Dean gets tricked into inviting Michael in, and Lucifer promises that if Sam becomes his vessel he will free Dean from Michael. The brothers have been shown to go through great lengths to save each other.

I don't want to see either brother being posessed, because that would mean that he will be an empty shell afterwards or the writers have to brake what they foreshadowed in the last episode. Neither possibility is a good one.

And the whole sacrificing for each other thing should be really done, shouldn't it? I mean, they tried this now a couple of time, and it never really worked for the better.

The only way I see to end this whole dilemma in a way Sam and Dean will get out of this without harm is by re-establishing the status quo there was before this all started with God back in heaven and Lucifer back in hell.

It's just a theory, but maybe the writers think alike with me (and please think about this happening in the Supernatural-verse). Before God created the humans there was paradise and peace for all creations, but there was no free decisions, no emotions and no fun, it was all blank and boring. It all got more interesting with the humans and their emotions and mistakes. Its like a scale, for every good thing there must be a bad thing, for every angel there is a demon and for God there is the Devil.

When Gamble says, that this show is about humanism, maybe there will be an ending when Sam and Dean have to realize, that they can't kill evil without ruling out good at the same time and that the only way to end this in a way will be to get the scale back into balance.

Like said, just a theory, but I can't imagine an ending where Lucifer is really killed. What would that mean for S6? Reinventing a whole new new where everything is happy sunshine? Doesn't really sound like SPN. Or will they just clean up the last fuglies on earth. Also not that interesting.

LizzieAnne
September 27th, 2009, 05:04 AM
There are so many ways this could go and I'm sure Kripke will surprise us all.

As it's already been said... in this Season the writers are going for the humanity angle and also according the Sera Gamble bringing the brothers together after being ripped apart.

So I'm really hoping that both Michael and Lucifer won't take possession of Sam and Dean...in fact I think they could be lying when they say they need them. Or that although they would be their ultimate vessels, they can easily manage without them for the battle ahead.

Maybe God had already seen the coming unrest in heaven (all knowing after all) and had no intention for the apocalypse to be put in motion, but for whatever reason had to let it play out, so put in place Sam and Dean as the ones to save humanity.

Lucifer has said twice now that he won't lie or deceive..to both Sam and his current vessel...that makes me suspicious of him.

I'm thinking that Michael is going to be as bad as Lucifer in his quest for victory and that to save humanity Dean and Sam will have fight together to defeat both Michael's army of angels and Lucifer's hordes. My favourite scenario at the moment. :D

How they get to do that is anybody's guess...I'm hoping they get to have God on their side. :P

Also if heaven has sent the Four Horsemen to earth without God's consent he may well be more than a little miffed with Zachariah and Michael. Maybe we get to see the wrath of God fall on their heads. Zachariah did look pretty worried when Cas turned up to save Dean and Sam.

Madwelshboy
September 27th, 2009, 11:20 AM
Just got around to this episode. It was good, but not great IMO. The Cas/Dean stuff really made the episode for me. Cas in a strip club = Classic. It was good humor present in a non humorous way. The reveal of Sam being Lucifer's true vessel, didnt come as that much of a shock for me, but it should add some interesting layers to Sam's character. An i begs the question, will her tell Dean when they meet again. I do like how Mark Pellegrino play's Lucifer, in a sympathetically scary way.

P-90_177
September 27th, 2009, 02:34 PM
Just got around to this episode. It was good, but not great IMO. The Cas/Dean stuff really made the episode for me. Cas in a strip club = Classic. It was good humor present in a non humorous way. The reveal of Sam being Lucifer's true vessel, didnt come as that much of a shock for me, but it should add some interesting layers to Sam's character. An i begs the question, will her tell Dean when they meet again. I do like how Mark Pellegrino play's Lucifer, in a sympathetically scary way.

Yeah it must be said there's not many actors that are able to come across as scary and yet sympathetic at the exact same time. lol. Thing is you know he wants to destroy the world (As far as we know) and yet you can't help but like Lucifer.

the fifth man
September 27th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Yeah it must be said there's not many actors that are able to come across as scary and yet sympathetic at the exact same time. lol. Thing is you know he wants to destroy the world (As far as we know) and yet you can't help but like Lucifer.

I wouldn't go so far as to say I like him. But, this portrayal does making totally hating him a little harder.

Crichiel
September 28th, 2009, 07:09 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to say I like him. But, this portrayal does making totally hating him a little harder.

Yeah, this episode even more than Sympathy for the Devil made me so happy with their casting choice for Lucifer. I didn't know if Mark Pelligrino's guest shot on Lost was fluke, but I now I see it wasn't. He is an impressive actor. I hope Lucifer can use him as a host for quite a while! :)

flameling
September 28th, 2009, 10:40 AM
If some one brought Castiel back, did they bring Jimmy back to? This is just a question that's annoying me.

LoneStar1836
September 28th, 2009, 10:57 AM
If some one brought Castiel back, did they bring Jimmy back to? This is just a question that's annoying me.
Show hasn't indicated one way or the other. Hopefully they will mention it at some point.

I would hope that Jimmy died and was able to move on when Raphael took out Cas and now we only see his body, but who knows.