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P-90_177
September 19th, 2009, 03:27 AM
Right then there might some spoilers in here for anyone who hasn't seen the second episode of season 5 yet so....be warned.

Anyway I've been doing a little digging (now I've seen said pendant close up) as to what it might symbolise and was wondering if you all would care to help me. I haven't done much so far.

Anyway, this is what the pendant looks like up close:

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt144/SupNatFans/suneck1a.jpg

Now as was pointed out to me before it looks like a sort of pagan symbol so I started here and quickly came up with this:

http://www.paganspath.com/img/hornedgod2.jpg

Granted the horns on it look a little off but the face is strangely similar. Apparently though this is the Great Horned one. A pagan god to be sure.
apparently according to the site I got the above picture from this God appears in:


Paintings discovered in the Caverne des Trois Freres at Ariege, France provides evidence of the first views of the Horned One. Depicted as a stag standing upright on hind legs with the upper body of a man, the figure is celebrating what appears to be a hunt and wooing a woman.

From some of the earliest myths come the union between the fertile Goddess and the triumphant phallus hunter, the Horned God. The more successful the tribal hunter in providing for his people, the greater his stature became. The more likely he would be the one chosen to impregnate the "Mother" of the tribe. Often seen as the High Priestess or at least a tribal woman who was touched by the goddess because of her prowess at becoming pregnant and extending the life of the tribe. Something that was needed during the days of ancient man, as life spans were short and death by illness or disease was common.


Now to me this seems quite apt for dean. I mean
"the figure is celebrating what appears to be a hunt and wooing a woman."
Definately very Dean.
However this is just the first possibility I've come across. I'm going to try and search all mythologies to try and find a possible match. However, so far I think this is a real possibility. The only thing that would make me doubt is that "The Horned One" Is depicted usually as having stag like antlers whereas the ones on Deans Pendant clearly aren't.

P-90_177
September 19th, 2009, 03:34 AM
Another Pagan horned God just caught my eye. This time from Cyprus from around 1200BC:

http://www.windowoncyprus.com/images/horned_god_1200_b.gif

This definately looks closer to it if you ask me.

starg8fans
September 19th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Right then there might some spoilers in here for anyone who hasn't seen the second episode of season 5 yet so....be warned.

Anyway I've been doing a little digging (now I've seen said pendant close up) as to what it might symbolise and was wondering if you all would care to help me. I haven't done much so far.

Anyway, this is what the pendant looks like up close:

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt144/SupNatFans/suneck1a.jpg

Now as was pointed out to me before it looks like a sort of pagan symbol so I started here and quickly came up with this:

http://www.paganspath.com/img/hornedgod2.jpg

Granted the horns on it look a little off but the face is strangely similar. Apparently though this is the Great Horned one. A pagan god to be sure.
apparently according to the site I got the above picture from this God appears in:

Now to me this seems quite apt for dean. I mean
"the figure is celebrating what appears to be a hunt and wooing a woman."
Definately very Dean.
However this is just the first possibility I've come across. I'm going to try and search all mythologies to try and find a possible match. However, so far I think this is a real possibility. The only thing that would make me doubt is that "The Horned One" Is depicted usually as having stag like antlers whereas the ones on Deans Pendant clearly aren't.


Another Pagan horned God just caught my eye. This time from Cyprus from around 1200BC:

http://www.windowoncyprus.com/images/horned_god_1200_b.gif

This definately looks closer to it if you ask me.

That's really interesting research. Actually, the ritual with the 'Horned one' plays a big part in Marion Zimmer Bradley's book The Mists of Avalon, where Arthur has to undergo it in order to become king. But I never made the connection.

And you're right, the Cyprus statue does look a lot like the pendant, all the way to that funny little cap. Any info on what this god was all about?

P-90_177
September 20th, 2009, 01:57 AM
That's really interesting research. Actually, the ritual with the 'Horned one' plays a big part in Marion Zimmer Bradley's book The Mists of Avalon, where Arthur has to undergo it in order to become king. But I never made the connection.

And you're right, the Cyprus statue does look a lot like the pendant, all the way to that funny little cap. Any info on what this god was all about?

Well horned gods are pretty common in many mythologies. They all tend to be symbols of Fertility and good hunters. The Cyprus statue is just another depiction of "the great horned one" except it would have had a few differences to the one worshiped in western Europe at the time, mainly being the fact that rather than stag antlers, it instead has ox horns.

iolanda
September 20th, 2009, 02:24 AM
I am just curious: Where did Bobby get that pendant from? He gave it to Sam for giving it to John, but Sam gave it to Dean.

So: was it really Bobby who gave it to Sam? And was it really meant to go to John, or was it meant to go to Dean in the first place?

starg8fans
September 20th, 2009, 02:58 AM
Well horned gods are pretty common in many mythologies. They all tend to be symbols of Fertility and good hunters. The Cyprus statue is just another depiction of "the great horned one" except it would have had a few differences to the one worshiped in western Europe at the time, mainly being the fact that rather than stag antlers, it instead has ox horns.

I wonder if this is rooted in the mythology of ancient Crete, Bulls played a big role there, what with the bull games (where the young men had to jump or sault over the bulls' horns) and the Minotaur.


I am just curious: Where did Bobby get that pendant from? He gave it to Sam for giving it to John, but Sam gave it to Dean.

So: was it really Bobby who gave it to Sam? And was it really meant to go to John, or was it meant to go to Dean in the first place?

I've been wondering the same thing. But Bobby seemed as confused about this as the boys, so he clearly meant for John (or Dean?) to have it for another reason.

P-90_177
September 20th, 2009, 07:10 AM
I wonder if this is rooted in the mythology of ancient Crete, Bulls played a big role there, what with the bull games (where the young men had to jump or sault over the bulls' horns) and the Minotaur.



I've been wondering the same thing. But Bobby seemed as confused about this as the boys, so he clearly meant for John (or Dean?) to have it for another reason.

Well Bulls and cows are often important in pagan mythos. In crete though you're right. The Bull games are their own way of proving their worth, just in the same way Bull fighting is in Spain. Bulls are seen as a powerful symbol, so being able to defeat one of them (in any way shape or form it seems) is classed as a great victory and proves male dominanace. The minotour however is slightly different. The Minotour was a great beast that terrorised which is why it was imprissoned within the Labryinth. However it is possible that the form of a man like bull is still rooted in that ancient pagan belief that horns were a symbol of male fertility. I'd have to read up on the particular myth again.
However the belief of Horns meaning fetility makes a lot of sense. Typically the strongest Bull, stag, ox or any other horned animal is the one with the largest horns or antlers, because this allows them to win more battles with rival males and therefore more easily attract a mate.

Well I figure the pendant must have some other use than the one castiel claims it has. Possibly against something we've not seen within the show before. Or it could be just that while on a visit to Bobby's with the boys, sam saw the charm, thought it looked cool, and asked boby if he could give to his dad for christmas.......I mean same said that bobby gave it to him. He didn't specify whether it was because bobby said he wanted john to have it or whether Sam asked for something to give to his dad for christmas.

starg8fans
September 20th, 2009, 11:45 AM
Well Bulls and cows are often important in pagan mythos. In crete though you're right. The Bull games are their own way of proving their worth, just in the same way Bull fighting is in Spain. Bulls are seen as a powerful symbol, so being able to defeat one of them (in any way shape or form it seems) is classed as a great victory and proves male dominanace. The minotour however is slightly different. The Minotour was a great beast that terrorised which is why it was imprissoned within the Labryinth. However it is possible that the form of a man like bull is still rooted in that ancient pagan belief that horns were a symbol of male fertility. I'd have to read up on the particular myth again.
However the belief of Horns meaning fetility makes a lot of sense. Typically the strongest Bull, stag, ox or any other horned animal is the one with the largest horns or antlers, because this allows them to win more battles with rival males and therefore more easily attract a mate.

Well I figure the pendant must have some other use than the one castiel claims it has. Possibly against something we've not seen within the show before. Or it could be just that while on a visit to Bobby's with the boys, sam saw the charm, thought it looked cool, and asked boby if he could give to his dad for christmas.......I mean same said that bobby gave it to him. He didn't specify whether it was because bobby said he wanted john to have it or whether Sam asked for something to give to his dad for christmas.

Yes, the Minotaur was half man half beast, which also ties in with the fertility notion. And the horns - well, the correlation to fertility is rather obvious from the shape as well... Although it's funny, in the romanic languages the term 'cornuto' which means the 'horned one' is one of the greatest insults, since it refers to a man whose wife cheats on him.

I went back to the 'Very Supernatural xmas' transcript because I didn't remember the exact wording. I always thought that the pendant was a present from Bobby to John, but you're right - it could also be that Sam asked Bobby for it to give to his father. Too bad they didn't let Bobby expand on it in 5.02, it could even be that he doesn't remember ever having given it to Sam.

P-90_177
September 20th, 2009, 02:11 PM
Yes, the Minotaur was half man half beast, which also ties in with the fertility notion. And the horns - well, the correlation to fertility is rather obvious from the shape as well... Although it's funny, in the romanic languages the term 'cornuto' which means the 'horned one' is one of the greatest insults, since it refers to a man whose wife cheats on him.

I went back to the 'Very Supernatural xmas' transcript because I didn't remember the exact wording. I always thought that the pendant was a present from Bobby to John, but you're right - it could also be that Sam asked Bobby for it to give to his father. Too bad they didn't let Bobby expand on it in 5.02, it could even be that he doesn't remember ever having given it to Sam.

Ah but remember horned animals don't tend to ever have a mate for life. They have the whole heard. ;) Hence why at the same time it's an insult.

LizzieAnne
September 21st, 2009, 11:08 AM
OK..here's my bit of research. :) Some interesting info I've taken from Supernatural Wiki.


This plate appears in Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which documents his Hero's Journey. This theory has been acknowledged by Eric Kripke and other creators of Supernatural as being highly influential to the narrative arc of the show.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab183/athena-4400/supernatural/Season%205/Heroamulet.jpg

Joseph Campbell was a comparative mythologist who has best become known for his 1949 book The Hero with a Thousand Faces. In this book Campbell presents the concept of an archetypal hero whose journey (or 'character-arc') is repeated throughout worldwide mythologies and religions. This journey is termed the "Hero's Journey."

Eric Kripke has confessed his fascination with the Hero's Journey and his exploration of it within Supernatural (Jensen Ackles reveals this in a behind-the-scenes Supernatural special). George Lucas is another director who has publicly acknowledged his use of the Hero's Journey arc (in Star Wars). It should be noted that, while Campbell is very popular with Hollywood writers -- a popular scriptwriting manual advises using the Hero's Journey as a model -- many academic folklorists and mythologists have little to no use for Campbell as a scholar. While his work provides a nice template for telling a fictional story about a (Western, male) hero, his reductive, arbitrary, ethnocentric approach to diverse mythologies makes him an unreliable source for any serious study of myth.
Campbell's book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" makes a cameo in the opening sequence of 1.02 Wendigo.

starg8fans
September 21st, 2009, 11:31 PM
OK..here's my bit of research. :) Some interesting info I've taken from Supernatural Wiki.

<snip>


Great research, Lizzie, worthy of Sam! I had never heard of this book before. What's this cameo you mentioned in Wendigo? I looked at the transcript but couldn't find any mention there.

It seems to me, though, that the Dean's pendant is of Asian origin. The calm features of the face remind me of a buddha or some of the Indian deities that have reached Nirvana. No time to do any research on that ATM, but I thought I'd throw out this idea.

LizzieAnne
September 22nd, 2009, 09:12 AM
Great research, Lizzie, worthy of Sam! I had never heard of this book before. What's this cameo you mentioned in Wendigo? I looked at the transcript but couldn't find any mention there.


Why thank you kindly:D

I guessed it was strategically placed in the ep so I had to go and take a look :P here it is.....I like a challenge..

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab183/athena-4400/supernatural/vlcsnap-12066-1.jpg



It seems to me, though, that the Dean's pendant is of Asian origin. The calm features of the face remind me of a buddha or some of the Indian deities that have reached Nirvana. No time to do any research on that ATM, but I thought I'd throw out this idea.

I'll have to have a think about that..nothing comes to mind atm.