PDA

View Full Version : Sympathy for the Devil (501)



Madwelshboy
September 10th, 2009, 03:29 AM
APOCALYPSE NOW — Picking up where the finale left off, Dean (Jensen Ackles) and Sam (Jared Padalecki) watch as the Devil (guest star Mark Pellegrino, “Lost”) emerges from Hell. The brothers and Bobby (Jim Beaver) deal with the aftermath of Lucifer rising and the stunning news from Chuck the Prophet (guest star Rob Benedict) that Castiel (Misha Collins) was blown to bits by the archangels. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Eric Kripke (#501).

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv170/madwelsboy/55208.jpg

Pandora's_Box
September 10th, 2009, 07:22 PM
Lucifer rises from Hell. Sam, Dean, and Bobby deal with the aftermath and find themselves caught in the middle of a war. A revelation is made about Dean and Lucifer goes searching for his human vessel.

***

'Kay, so, here it is folks. The premiere of the last season...maybe.

Liked it? Didn't like it?

I'm unsure. On the one hand I understand the need to slow things down and lay down the rules of this war, but I think I was hoping for something more exciting.

Castiel? Always awesome.

the fifth man
September 10th, 2009, 07:56 PM
Personally, I thought this was a great season premiere. It really laid out the direction of this season, and set up a lot of things. I am very excited for what is to come, starting with next weeks episode.

Pandora's_Box
September 10th, 2009, 08:04 PM
I think what bugged me the most was God saving Dean, Sam, and Castiel. I was okay with this idea of God as the super being who created the world and now leaves it alone (which is kind of what they hinted at last season), but now he's saving people? Why only Dean, Sam, and Castiel? Why not the whole world? Why doesn't he intervene and prevent Lucifer from taking his vessel? I mean if he can save the angel, Castiel, then why can't he stop the other angel, Lucifer?

I've got no problems with TPTB playing with angels and demons, but leave God out of it because then you get into the whole omnipotent thing and questions arise as to why he just can't save everyone. Let God be too "big" for us puny humans on this little lonely planet.

kennythewraith
September 10th, 2009, 09:08 PM
I think what bugged me the most was God saving Dean, Sam, and Castiel. I was okay with this idea of God as the super being who created the world and now leaves it alone (which is kind of what they hinted at last season), but now he's saving people? Why only Dean, Sam, and Castiel? Why not the whole world? Why doesn't he intervene and prevent Lucifer from taking his vessel? I mean if he can save the angel, Castiel, then why can't he stop the other angel, Lucifer?

I've got no problems with TPTB playing with angels and demons, but leave God out of it because then you get into the whole omnipotent thing and questions arise as to why he just can't save everyone. Let God be too "big" for us puny humans on this little lonely planet.

i loved everything about the premiere and look forward to seeing where it goes from here,and i think we will get answers to why they were saved eventually...my bet is because they can stop bith the demons and angels and prevent both sides plans.if it is god then it looks like he aint happy about the angels plans but maybe he actually isnt all powefull?

Betelgeuze
September 11th, 2009, 12:14 AM
I'm wondering if it really was god that saved Dean, Sam and Castiel. Maybe it was an angel who doesn'tt agree with what the other angels are doing. It might even have been Lucifer, so far what we know about Lucifer comes from the other angels, and they aren't exactly reliable. Or maybe like kennythewraith said god might not be all powerful. Only four angels have seen him, so it might all be a big conspiracy by these four angels.

The only thing that bugged me was Dean being Michael's vessel. In the previous season it was said that vessel can see the true form of angels and hear their true voice without being damaged. Dean could not withstand Castiel's true voice, so how can he be a vessel?

Other than that i really liked the premiere. It had the right combination of action, drama and humour (the superfan was creepy but funny, made me think of the obsessed fangirls of a certain vampire book/movie). Lucifer promises to be an interesting character, charming but manipulative. I also loved to see Castiel finally kicking some angel butt and getting out on top. And i wonder how the Dean and Sam trust issue is going to be resolved.

Naonak
September 11th, 2009, 04:18 AM
Overall, I loved it. Maybe not up with Lazarus Rising, but certainly the best opener after that IMO.

As always, the Sam/Dean stuff was excellent. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they rebuild their relationship.

Bobby and Cas are so badass. :p

The stuff with Becky was hilarious. I loved Dean's "Oh, thank God, the angels are here..." line too.


I'm wondering if it really was god that saved Dean, Sam and Castiel. ... It might even have been Lucifer, so far what we know about Lucifer comes from the other angels, and they aren't exactly reliable.
Yeah, Lucifer was my first thought too. Would certainly make things more complicated.


The only thing that bugged me was Dean being Michael's vessel. In the previous season it was said that vessel can see the true form of angels and hear their true voice without being damaged. Dean could not withstand Castiel's true voice, so how can he be a vessel?
Welll, it seems like each angel has a specific vessel, or at least a specific bloodline (Castiel/Jimmy and his daughter; Lucifer/Nick; Michael/Dean), so maybe the vessels can only withstand "their" angel?

starg8fans
September 11th, 2009, 05:02 AM
Wow, that was a lot to take in! I think I need to watch it again to get things straight in my head...

What I didn't get was how Bobby could be possessed? I mean, as careful as he is, don't you think he has that charm tattoo as well? Good for him, though, that he took control of the demon before it could kill Dean.

Poor Dean, anyway. He's wanted by the demons, by the angels, probably Lucifer himself - and he can't trust his brother, and Bobby's paralyzed. And the no. 1 fan is a Sam girl! :lol:

Now one thing I find very disturbing is that Zachariah can 'send' visions to Chuck. He's able to mess with a gospel as it is written? WTF? The cryptic reference was pretty good, though. Rover Street. (I really like to know how they're gonna translate that for the German version...)

I loved it how Dean stood up to Zachariah. A welcome change from his usual urge to sacrifice himself for others. This time, no matter what Zach threatened to do to Sam or Bobby, Dean said 'no'. Maybe he had to get disillusioned with everybody until he learned to put himself first.

Can't wait for next week. This should be a really awesome season. The mix of humor and drama in the premier was great. It seems we're gonna see some action in the next one...

Arative
September 11th, 2009, 05:47 AM
I enjoyed the episode. Good humor with the number fan, good drama with the brothers. I'm enjoying the arch that has been laid out for the season.

Crichiel
September 11th, 2009, 07:40 AM
Ok warning you up front, I watched it 3 times and took notes the last time. This might be long!

A quick overview: I mostly loved this ep, but there were a few niggling points that came up (some of which you guys have mentioned). Since I don't have a lot of time here to do this in a proper essay-form, it will be more a run-through of the ep with my likes and dislikes.

-The Road So Far. Excellent recap montage. What was the song, anyone?

-Love the new title card graphic

-Getting pulled out of the chapel. Hmm. Some of you have issue with the God explanation. I actually kind of like it that God HASN'T left the building (because, frankly, that was prettty hard concept for someone as religious as me to suspend disbelief over), but just getting yanked away from a scene as potentially exciting as facing Lucifer as he rises? I was disappointed that we were cheated of that confrontation. Though I like the transition to the Yosemite Sam cartoon. And, poor Dean! He has a right to be afraid of flying. The two times he's been on a plane they DO almost crash! ;)

-CHUCK! Love Chuck. One of the best lines: Do I have a molar in my hair? This has been a really stressful day.

-I have always really liked the idea of the blood glyph (even if it has a number of inherent problems when you think carefully on it). It's a cool visual device and the way Dean uses it to stick it to Zachariah is a cheer-out-loud kind of moment....makes me overlook the continuity issues there like: when could they have POSSIBLY had time to put it on the door, and why does Dean have no cut on his arm in the very next scene?

-Sam telling Dean in the hotel where he learned how to make the hex bags. I like the way Jared plays this. Sam is still embarassed and horrified by what he did (more on this later), but he is also resolved not to lie to Dean any more.

-I do NOT like the getting sober cheat! Being Supernatural, I can only hope that it wasn't completely true and Sam isn't free of the physical ramifications of his addiction, because I am not happy that he got a 'get out of jail free' card on this point. :(

The uber-fan. I didn't like her in the first scene with her on the computer. The scene took a little too directly from a similar scene with Justin Long in Galaxy Quest. And, while I am guilty of reading fanfiction, 'Wincest' makes my skin crawl! However, I loved Becky's scene in the hotel room. Poor Sam is the butt of so many jokes, it was a nice turnabout to make Becky a Sam Girl who dismisses Dean. And Jared, who gets much less humour to play than Jensen, was hilarious. "Becky? Can you quit touching me?" :)

-BOBBY! (well, sort of) and BABY!!! (the Impala).

-Ok, someone already brought this up, but I re-iterate. How did Bobby get possessed? He is the one who told Sam and Dean about charms taht ward off possession in the first place....but again, I will let it go, because it made for a very dramatic scene. Except for the fact that:

-It was too obvious that it wasn't Bobby as soon as he went after Sam. Bobby simply doesn't do that. Bobby is like the anti-John. He doesnt verbally attack people in anger. He may yell out some painful truths to the boys, but the things he was saying to Sam went against every Bobby-code we've seen about sticking together and being family no matter what. They should have instantly picked up on that, no matter what Sam had done. Oh man, though, the look on Sam's face! :( That was absolutely crushing!!

-Meg. I am one of those that has a hard time accepting different actors playing a role, but I liked this actress. She really embodied the quirks of Meg that Nikki Aycox set up. And her and Dean's exchange gave us one of my two favourite lines from the ep: What is that? Peanut butter?

-Love loved loved that Bobby loves the boys so much, he was able to overtake the demon momentarily to save Dean, like John did in Devil's Trap. And the resulting fight between the demons and Sam and Dean was awesome. Though, I seriously doubt Sam or Dean would be able to walk at all after the beatings they took! ;)

-About time there the hospital staff questioned these guys coming in with knife wounds! (the nurse telling them they would have to answer questions).

-The Lucifer vessel. I like Mark Pelligrino because of Lost. I have seen him do some great acting there, so I am confident in his abilities to portray Lucifer. The bloody crib would have been more powerful if I hadn't seen it in previews and spoilers (I am going to try for the first time to NOT look at any more spoilers this year so that I can be properly shocked at moments like this...we'll see how long my resolve lasts. ;))

-I like the continuity of John's storage locker. Been wondering what happened with that.

-My other favourite line: Oh thank God. The angels are here.

-I know this is going to divide people, but I got shivers of excitement when Zach told Dean he was the Sword of Michael. I LOVE this twist of events! I didn't see it coming at all and I like all that it could imply. I think it also helps to humanise Dean again because like Zach says, Dean isn't going to stop Lucifer because he has some latent superpowers like Sam, he is just a human. A special human, but just a human.

-Dean realising that Michael needs his consent is a powerful moment, because it limits the angels' powers and gives some of it back to us mere mortals. This whole scene is probably my favourite of the episode. We have the visceral images (and sounds) of an angel torturing the good guys (!). The sounds of Sam's legs breaking. *shudder* And more importantly, for the first time, we see Dean FINALLY break the Winchester cycle of sacrificing anything to save each other. Sam's life is tangibly threatened and Dean is still strong enough to say 'no' to Zach. Bobby could be healed, and Dean still says 'no'. Each 'no' had me beaming with pride. And his "Yes....kill us" made me cheer out loud! :)

-CASTIEL! Fantastic entrance and he finally gets to kick butt. Again, I kind of like the God concept. I like the idea that for the MOST part He does leave humans alone to make their own good or bad choices, but in something this big? He isn't going to just sit by, He has an ultimate plan and might need to occassionally steer the car away from oncoming trees.

-Castiel's best line for me was: Now put these boys back together and go. I won't ask twice. :)

-Carving of the sigil on their RIBS was a :cool: idea. Painful, but very :cool:

-Lucifer's calm reasoning with the vessel was a well done scene. If you didn't know who Lucifer was, you could almost feel sorry for him. It also gave us the first glimmer that Mark can handle the humour aspect of Supernatural: Could you do me a favour there...Satan? And remind me to quit drinking before I go to bed? Nice wry delivery on that line.

-Bobby's brow-beating the doctor was fun to see. He wouldn't get all sappy about his prognosis. And his apology to Sam was perfect and illustrates how obvious it was that he was possessed earlier.

-I thought Dean's speech in the hospital was OTT and a little too gun-ho, but I'll forgive the chessy-ness of it since he later says he was just doing it for Bobby's sake and doesn't believe it.

Whew! That WAS long!! I tried to warn you. The sad part is: I'm not done. I have skipped all the stuff concerning Sam and Dean's relationship. That needs a post all it's own. It is so complex and I have so many conflicting thoughts running through my head about this. Plus, I am sure many of you have already checked out just looking at the size of this post! :o. My "Sympathy for the Devil Review part 2" will be forthcoming. I'm sure you're all on pins and needles waiting to hear it...:rolleyes::D

Switch42
September 11th, 2009, 07:56 AM
Personally, I thought this was a great season premiere. It really laid out the direction of this season, and set up a lot of things. I am very excited for what is to come, starting with next weeks episode.

Me, too. I loved this so much. There was so much going on. Lots of new questions were raised that I can't wait to see the answers to.



-The Road So Far. Excellent recap montage. What was the song, anyone?

AC/DC - Thunderstruck. Always nice to go back to the classics.



-Love the new title card graphic

Me, too! I was discussing with a friend the other day what kind of graphic they might have this season. I was thinking fire would be appropriate, but that had already been done. I think the blood works really well.



-Getting pulled out of the chapel. Hmm. Some of you have issue with the God explanation. I actually kind of like it that God HASN'T left the building. I was disappointed that we were cheated of that confrontation.

I like it, too. It really lends a very GRAND SCALE to what might be going on this season. So, it looks like God is home. But what kind of work is He up to?
I actually like that we didn't get the confrontation right then. As it will then make their first actual encounter with Lucifer that much stronger, I think.



-It was too obvious that it wasn't Bobby as soon as he went after Sam. Bobby simply doesn't do that. Bobby is like the anti-John. He doesnt verbally attack people in anger. He may yell out some painful truths to the boys, but the things he was saying to Sam went against every Bobby-code we've seen about sticking together and being family no matter what. They should have instantly picked up on that, no matter what Sam had done. Oh man, though, the look on Sam's face! :( That was absolutely crushing!!

See, I kind of took this along the lines of Bobby's speech to Dean in When The Levee Breaks. Ya know, that "Boohoo, Princess" speech? It was something that I think needed to be said to sort of knock some sense into each of the boys, but he didn't really mean it. Of course that whole point was moot as soon as we knew Bobby was possessed. But even if he hadn't been, I could have bought it.



-I know this is going to divide people, but I got shivers of excitement when Zach told Dean he was the Sword of Michael. I LOVE this twist of events! I didn't see it coming at all and I like all that it could imply. I think it also helps to humanise Dean again because like Zach says, Dean isn't going to stop Lucifer because he has some latent superpowers like Sam, he is just a human. A special human, but just a human.

I squeed so loud when we got that bit of news. I think it is a really, really amazing twist to Dean's "destiny." Because Castiel and all the angels may say that Dean is going to be the one to stop the apocalypse. But how? How can a human stop someone as powerful as Lucifer and his army? Now we know. It will be very interesting to see where that storyline goes.



-CASTIEL! Fantastic entrance and he finally gets to kick butt.

Yes! Another fantastic entrance for Castiel. Though it makes me wonder what is going on with him. Cos he's got some serious mojo he didn't have pre-explosion. Did God amp up his angel juice after saving him? Is he now an archangel? Is he even Castiel? Could he be someone else? Michael? God, even? I'm so happy and excited they made Castiel a regular for this season. His storyline is going to be amazing.



-Lucifer's calm reasoning with the vessel was a well done scene. If you didn't know who Lucifer was, you could almost feel sorry for him. It also gave us the first glimmer that Mark can handle the humour aspect of Supernatural: Could you do me a favour there...Satan? And remind me to quit drinking before I go to bed? Nice wry delivery on that line.

Yes. I almost started sympathizing with him myself! But you know they say that every villain is the hero of his own story. Lucifer doesn't see himself as doing anything bad or wrong. He loves God, as he said.


I think I'm going to need to watch this a few more times to take everything in....

Madwelshboy
September 11th, 2009, 07:59 AM
What a great episode!!

i'm kinda glad the boys didnt face off against Lucifer, dont ask me why, just am. Speaking of Lucifer, Mark Pelligrino was great! cant wait to see him as Lucifer, compared to as the nick, the vessel. Im glad the showed the that, to understand why someone would agree to be Lucifers meatsuit.

As to how the boys got on the plain and Cas alive, i'd like to think that it was god, rather than Lucifer. Or if not god, then Anna, but whether shed have the power to do that is something else.

Cas kicking butt! need i say more!

Chuck was Chuck, wouldnt have minded seing a bit more of him in the episode. Super fangirl was funny! love he remark to Dean an that she couldnt keep her hands of Sam.

Great to see Bobby! But as a meatsuit for a demon? arrggg! Though it was cool to have Meg back as a recall to season 1, wasnt that impressed with the actress.

iheartshep
September 11th, 2009, 08:07 AM
My questions/comments:
(1) How did Bobby get possessed? That really threw me.
(2) Did I read the credits correctly and now Misha Collins is listed as a cast member instead of a guest star? Sweet!
(3) That girl who kept touching Sam. Hilarious!

I'm so glad the new season is here!

IHS

Crichiel
September 11th, 2009, 08:22 AM
See, I kind of took this along the lines of Bobby's speech to Dean in When The Levee Breaks. Ya know, that "Boohoo, Princess" speech? It was something that I think needed to be said to sort of knock some sense into each of the boys, but he didn't really mean it. Of course that whole point was moot as soon as we knew Bobby was possessed. But even if he hadn't been, I could have bought it.


No. Like I said, Bobby WILL yell at the boys. He has no compunction about that. It is WHAT he said. No matter how much Bobby yells (because, sometimes, they really need someone to smack them out of their pity-parties), I don't believe for a second that he would tell them to 'lose his number'. Until then, I bought it. Once he said that, I said 'demon'.

Thanks for the song title too, Switch! :) I thought it was AC/DC, but had no idea which song!

Madwelshboy
September 11th, 2009, 08:25 AM
Supernatural: "Sympathy for the Devil" Review

The season premiere of Supernatural, "Sympathy for the Devil," picks up exactly where the season finale left off, with Lucifer rising from hell. There is a lot to cover and the episode does not waste a minute of screen time. The battle lines have been drawn, Lucifer has arrived, and the angels and demons are gearing up for a fight. Meanwhile, Dean and Sam find themselves on neither side, having been betrayed by both.

Scored a 9/10 rating

continues:
http://uk.tv.ign.com/articles/102/1023671p1.html




Preliminary ratings suggest the fifth season premiere of Supernatural didn’t fare as well, drawing (a still decent) 3.4 million viewers.

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/09/11/vampire-diaries-ratings-they-dont-suck/

That's down from the 3.96 million viewers for the season 4 premier, but up from the season 4 finale of 2.89 million viewers.

Ashizuri
September 11th, 2009, 09:28 AM
seriously, my immediate reaction was:

Bobby!
BOBBY!
Holy crap, give Sam back his lungs!
Oh snap, Castiel is awesome.
Oh Dean. Oh Sam. Saaaaaad.

After I proccessed a bit:

-When Bobby was telling Sam that everything was his fault and to loose his number I kept thinking Dean was going to offer up the information that this is at least half his fault as he broke the first seal. Way to let baby brother take all the heat.

-I didn't like to new Meg actress, something about the way she talked bugged me.

-Castiel, still far cooler than the other angels, though he does seem to be Castiel on steroids. He better not be drinking some other angels blood.

-How did the demons suddenly figure out that Dean was Michael's vessel? The "dreams" they've been having maybe? It just seems odd that they suddenly know everything, unless I missed something.

-Bobby in the hospital, kicking the doctor out of the room. Lol. I love Bobby more than I thought possible.

-I was unsure about Pellegrino, having never seen any of his previous work, but the scene with the bloody bassinet was intense. I can't wait to see him now that he's allowed Lucifer to possess him. And crap, I kind of did find myself sympathysing with the devil for a few seconds there.

-Hex bags Sammy? I really think that now is kind of not the time to be showing off what Ruby taught you. Then again, well played, you did need to hide from the angels.

-I can't wait to see Jo and Ellen back, I always loved them, so it was nice seeing them in the previews. I hope we get more Anna as well. (I wish the fangirls didn't have the uncotrollable hate for any female cast. I've liked almost all of them.)

GateMan2000
September 11th, 2009, 12:06 PM
Great episode. I am looking foward to this season.

Crichiel
September 11th, 2009, 12:08 PM
I'm back. Sorry. :o;)

Ok, it might not have been apparent from my previous post, because I was focussing on everything BUT the Sam/Dean stuff, I am actually quite the Dean/Jensen Girl. Just letting you know up front, so you can factor in my biases in what I write. ;)

As I said earlier, I am kind of conflicted about how they handled the brotherly make-up stuff. Let me look at it scene by scene.

-First scene in the rental/stolen car. Dean brushes Sam off and leaves it at "It's ok. Now isn't the time." I get that. It really isn't the time, but they had me worried for a second. Especially when Sam also gets that free pass on the de-tox. I was worried that they wouldn't have the time to wrap up all these big hanging details, so maybe they would begrudgingly let some of these things slip by. I should have known Supernatural would never allow that to happen! ;)

-"Your eyes were black?" Tells you he isn't forgetting and isn't 'fine with everything that happened. He's just putting it on hold.

-Scene in the hotel room. What I love about Jensen's (and Jared's too) acting is how good he is at saying it with his face. You can read everything going on in his mind with his subtle facial movements and body language. So when Sam tries to apologise again and Dean turns away from him, you can see already how hard Dean is trying to not blow up. When he does snap "So, why do you keep bringing it up?!", you were waiting for it and are almost relieved that he even got that much off his chest.

-When 'Bobby' is telling Sam to lose his number after this current crisis is resolved. Why why WHY is Dean not saying anything? That's actually what threw me off in the scene, moreso than what Bobby was doing. I was SURE Bobby was a demon, but I couldn't figure out what was going on with Dean because I can't think of another time when he would let someone ELSE talk to Sam like that. He can yell at Sam all he wants, but he generally doesn't let others. Even their surrogate father. But here, he stands by passively....even with that look of horrific sadness on Sam's face!

And now we are starting to get to my problem. Dean isn't accepting that he has ANY fault in the situation. This doesn't match up with what we saw in Lucifer Rising, or what we have seen time and time again in the past 4 years. Dean and Sam are generally only TOO willing to take the blame, even for things that aren't their fault in the least! There is a really fine line that Supernatural walks, and usually, I am amazed at how well they walk it. The boys are human, with human foibles and failings, but they are always 'man' enough to admit their mistakes. It's what makes them such relatable heroes.

Look again at Lucifer Rising, at the REAL phone message Dean leaves for Sam. First of all, I love how he does it 'Dean-style' by starting with "I still owe you one hell of a beat-down....", BUT he is big enough to admit that even though he still firmly believes he is right, it was NOT all right for him to say the things he said to Sam, and he apologises.

In Sympathy for the Devil, Sam apologises left, right and centre, taking even more blame than necessary....but Dean? The only tiny little concession he makes to anything being his fault is when he says "WE made a mess, we'll clean it up." Dean doesn't defend Sam against Bobby, he doesn't defend him against Zachariah's blame at Chuck's....Dean is basically throwing him to the wolves. Where's all that self-recrimination for breaking the FIRST seal? What about the stuff he said on the phone to Sam? Shouldn't he re-iterate that to Sam in person?! It makes Dean come off as kind of unsympathetic in these scenes...which irritates a Dean fan like me because I want everyone to love him as much as I do! :D

OK....but here is the conflict I have. I also LIKE some of these scenes because of the realism. I mean, criminy! How WOULD you begin to forgive what Sam's has done. Especially someone like Dean whose whole world revolves around his trust in family. Moreso than any other character on the series, Dean's life is totally dependent on knowing that that love and safety is there for him. His biggest insecurities come out when he feels his family doesn't need him like he needs them (as the YED pointed out to him). And by teaming up with Ruby and basically committing the horrible crime of being able to live without Dean while he was in hell, Sam was saying that he DIDN'T need Dean.

So, I totally understand what Dean is feeling. I like that he was able to at least see that Sam WOULD take it back if there was any way and can say both, "I KNOW how sorry you are..." and "I'm having a hard time forgiving and forgetting here". The responses highlight that he is gets it and he is trying, but he is only human. And the deepest wound, saying that he no longer trusts Sam? It is so hard, even as a viewer to hear. But honestly, if this were a real life situation, there is no way on earth the relationship could go back to the way it was. You can't undo the past and it will colour every future action you make, whether you want it to or not. Dean was being honest. Heart-breakingly honest.

And kudos again to both Jared and Jensen for their acting in this scene!

So, to sum up (sorry again....I'm a rambler! :o). I think the troubled relationship the brothers are experiencing right now is wonderful, and I am thrilled that they aren't just glossing over the seriousness of their emotional situation. (I would have revolted if they had cleared up that monster of a mess in ONE episode). BUT, I am a ticked at Dean not owning up to his own culpability in this whole thing. It seems a little OOC and is tarnishing the halo that I personally like to put on him! ;);):)

starg8fans
September 11th, 2009, 01:34 PM
Wow, Chrich, great analysis! Will only pick a few things to comment on.


-Getting pulled out of the chapel. Hmm. Some of you have issue with the God explanation. I actually kind of like it that God HASN'T left the building (because, frankly, that was prettty hard concept for someone as religious as me to suspend disbelief over), but just getting yanked away from a scene as potentially exciting as facing Lucifer as he rises? I was disappointed that we were cheated of that confrontation. Though I like the transition to the Yosemite Sam cartoon. And, poor Dean! He has a right to be afraid of flying. The two times he's been on a plane they DO almost crash! ;)

Actually, I think they would not have survived seeing Lucifer rise. Did you see the holes the bright light broke into the door? This was an angel rising in its true form, the boys would have been incinerated. The cut to the cartoon was a nice touch, though.


-I have always really liked the idea of the blood glyph (even if it has a number of inherent problems when you think carefully on it). It's a cool visual device and the way Dean uses it to stick it to Zachariah is a cheer-out-loud kind of moment....makes me overlook the continuity issues there like: when could they have POSSIBLY had time to put it on the door, and why does Dean have no cut on his arm in the very next scene?

Yes, I was wondering too when he got around to preparing that. And I kinda missed a bloody handprint when Dean took his hand away. I mean, it had been dripping blood before! And yes, bad coninuity on whatever cut the blood came from.


-I do NOT like the getting sober cheat! Being Supernatural, I can only hope that it wasn't completely true and Sam isn't free of the physical ramifications of his addiction, because I am not happy that he got a 'get out of jail free' card on this point. :(

TBH, I didn't even think about Sam's addiction. But I'm quite glad with them letting it go. I think it's a good idea to concentrate on the emotional turmoil and healing, having Sam in physical trauma as well would distract from it.


-It was too obvious that it wasn't Bobby as soon as he went after Sam. Bobby simply doesn't do that. Bobby is like the anti-John. He doesnt verbally attack people in anger. He may yell out some painful truths to the boys, but the things he was saying to Sam went against every Bobby-code we've seen about sticking together and being family no matter what. They should have instantly picked up on that, no matter what Sam had done. Oh man, though, the look on Sam's face! :( That was absolutely crushing!!

The funny thing is, I already felt Bobby was OOC when he entered the room. The way he hugged the boys felt somewhat... wrong. But I never would have thought he was possessed - as I said earlier, Bobby knows too much to allow that to happen. I was thinking that he had his own take on the fact that Armageddon was happening, and that the boys caused it, but wouldn't say.


-Love loved loved that Bobby loves the boys so much, he was able to overtake the demon momentarily to save Dean, like John did in Devil's Trap. And the resulting fight between the demons and Sam and Dean was awesome. Though, I seriously doubt Sam or Dean would be able to walk at all after the beatings they took! ;)

I was thinking the same thing. Don't give us beatings like that if you're unwilling to follow through. I mean, there wasn't even a hint of a bruise on Dean's face. They probably blew their whole blood allowance for the ep on the bed and the crib...

[/quote]-I know this is going to divide people, but I got shivers of excitement when Zach told Dean he was the Sword of Michael. I LOVE this twist of events! I didn't see it coming at all and I like all that it could imply. I think it also helps to humanise Dean again because like Zach says, Dean isn't going to stop Lucifer because he has some latent superpowers like Sam, he is just a human. A special human, but just a human.[/quote]

I agree, I liked that too - for exactly the same reasons.


-Dean realising that Michael needs his consent is a powerful moment, because it limits the angels' powers and gives some of it back to us mere mortals. This whole scene is probably my favourite of the episode. We have the visceral images (and sounds) of an angel torturing the good guys (!). The sounds of Sam's legs breaking. *shudder* And more importantly, for the first time, we see Dean FINALLY break the Winchester cycle of sacrificing anything to save each other. Sam's life is tangibly threatened and Dean is still strong enough to say 'no' to Zach. Bobby could be healed, and Dean still says 'no'. Each 'no' had me beaming with pride. And his "Yes....kill us" made me cheer out loud! :)

Same here. That was quite a change, and another indication for me how much Sam's betrayal has shaken Dean.


Me, too. I loved this so much. There was so much going on. Lots of new questions were raised that I can't wait to see the answers to.

Me, too! I was discussing with a friend the other day what kind of graphic they might have this season. I was thinking fire would be appropriate, but that had already been done. I think the blood works really well.

Yes, the new graphics are really cool. It was so funny, I was watching it with the kids, and when it came on the three of us kinda said 'cool' in unison!


Yes! Another fantastic entrance for Castiel. Though it makes me wonder what is going on with him. Cos he's got some serious mojo he didn't have pre-explosion. Did God amp up his angel juice after saving him? Is he now an archangel? Is he even Castiel? Could he be someone else? Michael? God, even? I'm so happy and excited they made Castiel a regular for this season. His storyline is going to be amazing.

The kids and I were specualting too if maybe Cas was God undercover. That could explain why Dean couldn't look at his true form, even though he is a vessel. Cas may be more than an angel. Anyway, Misha Collins said in an interview that Cas' real agenda will be revealed in the second episode, so I'm looking forward to that..[/QUOTE]


-How did the demons suddenly figure out that Dean was Michael's vessel? The "dreams" they've been having maybe? It just seems odd that they suddenly know everything, unless I missed something.

The demons didn't figure that out. They were looking for the actual sword after they'd got the address from Dean.


-I was unsure about Pellegrino, having never seen any of his previous work, but the scene with the bloody bassinet was intense. I can't wait to see him now that he's allowed Lucifer to possess him. And crap, I kind of did find myself sympathysing with the devil for a few seconds there.

I never saw him in a show either, but I'm liking what I see until now. I also agree with whoever said that it was good to get the background on this 'vessel'. And a pretty gruesome it is too. As a mom, anything where people lose their kids just makes me shudder.


As I said earlier, I am kind of conflicted about how they handled the brotherly make-up stuff. Let me look at it scene by scene.

<snipped for space>

So, to sum up (sorry again....I'm a rambler! :o). I think the troubled relationship the brothers are experiencing right now is wonderful, and I am thrilled that they aren't just glossing over the seriousness of their emotional situation. (I would have revolted if they had cleared up that monster of a mess in ONE episode). BUT, I am a ticked at Dean not owning up to his own culpability in this whole thing. It seems a little OOC and is tarnishing the halo that I personally like to put on him! ;);):)

Actually, I'm curious to see where the writers are going with this. It is disconcerting to see Dean acting so unusual, but then he's a different person. Sam's final betrayal must have left its marks on Dean's soul, and I would be more disappointed if he was still the same man as last season. So I'm reserving judgement until I've seen more.

Switch42
September 11th, 2009, 01:54 PM
And now we are starting to get to my problem. Dean isn't accepting that he has ANY fault in the situation. This doesn't match up with what we saw in Lucifer Rising, or what we have seen time and time again in the past 4 years. Dean and Sam are generally only TOO willing to take the blame, even for things that aren't their fault in the least! There is a really fine line that Supernatural walks, and usually, I am amazed at how well they walk it. The boys are human, with human foibles and failings, but they are always 'man' enough to admit their mistakes. It's what makes them such relatable heroes.


I think I was OK with that particular bit because so much of the last half of season 4 (post OtHoaP, anyway) was all about Dean coming to terms with his culpability in this situation and trying to atone for it. And by this point, it's almost a situation of what's done is done, nothing else can be said about it. The apocalypse is here. And Sam really did have a chance to "stop" it. Dean may have started it, yes. And we've dealt with that. But Sam could have stomped the whole thing out before it REALLY got started but he didn't. Because he wouldn't listen and was so blinded by his need for revenge that he let a demon get the better of him. So, to me, yeah, right now this is all on Sam. Dean's paid his dues, done his time for the part he played. Now it's Sam's turn.

(I love Sam and Dean equally. So it hurts me to see either of them in this situation.)

LoneStar1836
September 11th, 2009, 04:50 PM
I think what bugged me the most was God saving Dean, Sam, and Castiel. I was okay with this idea of God as the super being who created the world and now leaves it alone (which is kind of what they hinted at last season), but now he's saving people? Why only Dean, Sam, and Castiel? Why not the whole world? Why doesn't he intervene and prevent Lucifer from taking his vessel? I mean if he can save the angel, Castiel, then why can't he stop the other angel, Lucifer?

I've got no problems with TPTB playing with angels and demons, but leave God out of it because then you get into the whole omnipotent thing and questions arise as to why he just can't save everyone. Let God be too "big" for us puny humans on this little lonely planet.Yeah, I'm still not quite sure I'm sold on the idea of God making his way onto the show and getting into the act. Not that I find it offensive as I'm not religious, but He has the potential to be too powerful. A minor act like this is okay, but I hope the writers do go at it with the concept that God has ultimately given man free will to decide his destiny...especially since the show loves to play with the idea of free will versus fated destiny.


I'm wondering if it really was god that saved Dean, Sam and Castiel. Maybe it was an angel who doesn'tt agree with what the other angels are doing. It might even have been Lucifer, so far what we know about Lucifer comes from the other angels, and they aren't exactly reliable. I like that idea. Puts a bit more of a twist in the story if that's the case, but I do think the writers were strongly implying that God had a hand in that as well as Castiel's return.


What I didn't get was how Bobby could be possessed? I mean, as careful as he is, don't you think he has that charm tattoo as well? Good for him, though, that he took control of the demon before it could kill Dean.Same here.




-Love the new title card graphicMe too.


-Getting pulled out of the chapel. Hmm. Some of you have issue with the God explanation. I actually kind of like it that God HASN'T left the building (because, frankly, that was prettty hard concept for someone as religious as me to suspend disbelief over), but just getting yanked away from a scene as potentially exciting as facing Lucifer as he rises? I was disappointed that we were cheated of that confrontation. Though I like the transition to the Yosemite Sam cartoon. And, poor Dean! He has a right to be afraid of flying. The two times he's been on a plane they DO almost crash! ;) I loved that. :D

As far as a confrontation, I wasn't really expecting one in this episode. Lucifer had to find a vessel first... Can't jam pack everything into the first episode. :D


-I do NOT like the getting sober cheat! Being Supernatural, I can only hope that it wasn't completely true and Sam isn't free of the physical ramifications of his addiction, because I am not happy that he got a 'get out of jail free' card on this point. :(I think that is my biggest issue with this episode. I didn't like that either. Too easy a solution. I am hoping this will not be swept under the rug so easily. Drying him out like that was okay, but I do want some aftermath/Sam struggling with his past addiction. Not that I want poor Sam to suffer any more than he already has, but it was a big deal last season and with Sam's character in general. To do away with it so easily.... I just can't see the writers doing that. Maybe Sam was lying?

My other problem was the fan girl. Interjected some humor, but a bit too over the top for me. Could have done without it.


-Ok, someone already brought this up, but I re-iterate. How did Bobby get possessed? He is the one who told Sam and Dean about charms taht ward off possession in the first place....but again, I will let it go, because it made for a very dramatic scene. Except for the fact that:

-It was too obvious that it wasn't Bobby as soon as he went after Sam. Bobby simply doesn't do that. Bobby is like the anti-John. He doesnt verbally attack people in anger. He may yell out some painful truths to the boys, but the things he was saying to Sam went against every Bobby-code we've seen about sticking together and being family no matter what. They should have instantly picked up on that, no matter what Sam had done. Oh man, though, the look on Sam's face! :( That was absolutely crushing!! Yeah, when he said that to Sam, I knew that was not Bobby because he'd never say that.

Poor Sam. I felt so bad for him in this episode with him feeling the need to apologize over and over and then just take the berating from everyone else.:( Course I felt for him in S4 and how he was so manipulated. Ultimately he made his own choices and is responsible for them, but for Dean to tell him he could no longer trust him....*crushed*...even though I knew that was what Dean was going to say, and I can't blame him for feeling that way right now. Great scene though.


-Meg. I am one of those that has a hard time accepting different actors playing a role, but I liked this actress. She really embodied the quirks of Meg that Nikki Aycox set up. And her and Dean's exchange gave us one of my two favourite lines from the ep: What is that? Peanut butter?And I hated her! :P I hope to never see that one again. This is why I had a lot of reservation about bringing Meg back...too difficult to top Nikki Aycox's performance.


-The Lucifer vessel. I like Mark Pelligrino because of Lost. I have seen him do some great acting there, so I am confident in his abilities to portray Lucifer. The bloody crib would have been more powerful if I hadn't seen it in previews and spoilers (I am going to try for the first time to NOT look at any more spoilers this year so that I can be properly shocked at moments like this...we'll see how long my resolve lasts. ;))Same here. When I saw his name released earlier for that role, I was very pleased with the choice.


-I know this is going to divide people, but I got shivers of excitement when Zach told Dean he was the Sword of Michael. I LOVE this twist of events! I didn't see it coming at all and I like all that it could imply. I think it also helps to humanise Dean again because like Zach says, Dean isn't going to stop Lucifer because he has some latent superpowers like Sam, he is just a human. A special human, but just a human.

-Dean realising that Michael needs his consent is a powerful moment, because it limits the angels' powers and gives some of it back to us mere mortals. For a second I didn't quite like that twist, but the more I thought about it, the more I like it. Is it going to be a done deal at the end of the season and Dean eventually gives his consent? We'll have to wait and see. This is apparently going to be Dean's journey this season...the thing he struggles with.


-Lucifer's calm reasoning with the vessel was a well done scene. If you didn't know who Lucifer was, you could almost feel sorry for him. It also gave us the first glimmer that Mark can handle the humour aspect of Supernatural: Could you do me a favour there...Satan? And remind me to quit drinking before I go to bed? Nice wry delivery on that line.
Sympathy for the Devil..... Great title for this episode considering who he ultimately chose.

It is an interesting concept that the vessel has to give consent. And with that in mind, Lucifer goes for a decent man rather than someone with questionable character who might have given up consent maybe easier. He obviously has his reasons for choosing who he did. Quite manipulative there on Kripke's part to go for such a sympathetic vessel. These scenes were really good, imo. This will be interesting. Can't wait! :D

I thought this opener was quite good.:) I hate picking favorites, but at this moment I think I will still rank the Season 2 opener over this one, but it's tied with last season's.

the fifth man
September 11th, 2009, 06:20 PM
This was even better the second time around. I picked up a few things I missed watching it last night, and my fiancee' loved it too. She loves the show, but can't stand the gore. So this one wasn't too bad for her to watch.

spork67
September 11th, 2009, 06:25 PM
I really adored the season premiere. Everything was brilliant and Mark Pellegrino was just amazing. Seriously, Nick's story was hearbreaking. And he did such a good job of making it so damn believable. It was by far one of my favorite parts of the whole episode.

the fifth man
September 11th, 2009, 06:32 PM
I really adored the season premiere. Everything was brilliant and Mark Pellegrino was just amazing. Seriously, Nick's story was hearbreaking. And he did such a good job of making it so damn believable. It was by far one of my favorite parts of the whole episode.

The whole episode was my favorite part of the episode.;)

Krisz
September 11th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Fantastic as usual. Given what has happened, that Lucifer is loose on Earth, the part I found the most intense was the trust issue between Dean and Sam. It will be interesting as to see how this tension will affect how they work from now on.

I think the fact that it could be God intervening on occasion is an interesting addition to the mix. God being the all knowing being probably doesn't interefere for the reason that interfering could make things worse in ways that would cascade on and on. Lucifer could be the balance, yet needs to be kept in check. Interesting to see how the poor mortal humans fare being caught up in this eternal cosmic 'chess' game!

The uber fan made me cringe though! Guess that was the idea, spot on observation by the writers as usual! :D

starg8fans
September 12th, 2009, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I'm still not quite sure I'm sold on the idea of God making his way onto the show and getting into the act. Not that I find it offensive as I'm not religious, but He has the potential to be too powerful. A minor act like this is okay, but I hope the writers do go at it with the concept that God has ultimately given man free will to decide his destiny...especially since the show loves to play with the idea of free will versus fated destiny.

I like that idea. Puts a bit more of a twist in the story if that's the case, but I do think the writers were strongly implying that God had a hand in that as well as Castiel's return.

I like the idea that God will have a hand at the end of this story arc, but I agree with you that the 'all powerful' angle has a certain danger to it. But I trust the writers not to pull the 'mysterious last minute save' card too often. They are too creative to have to resort to this whenever the boys get into a really tight spot. I think it was a good ploy this time because it was totally unexpected, and it added to the mystery.

As for the implications, this may very well be a red herring. It's a little too obvious, if you know what I mean...


Poor Sam. I felt so bad for him in this episode with him feeling the need to apologize over and over and then just take the berating from everyone else.:( Course I felt for him in S4 and how he was so manipulated. Ultimately he made his own choices and is responsible for them, but for Dean to tell him he could no longer trust him....*crushed*...even though I knew that was what Dean was going to say, and I can't blame him for feeling that way right now. Great scene though.

That's one of the things I love about this show, they won't let you take sides. You feel both sorry for and upset with both brothers. And to think what it took to get them (and us) to this point is just amazing.


For a second I didn't quite like that twist, but the more I thought about it, the more I like it. Is it going to be a done deal at the end of the season and Dean eventually gives his consent? We'll have to wait and see. This is apparently going to be Dean's journey this season...the thing he struggles with.

It is an interesting concept that the vessel has to give consent. And with that in mind, Lucifer goes for a decent man rather than someone with questionable character who might have given up consent maybe easier. He obviously has his reasons for choosing who he did. Quite manipulative there on Kripke's part to go for such a sympathetic vessel. These scenes were really good, imo. This will be interesting. Can't wait! :D

Very good point about giving consent. This gives Dean a certain clout over the angels, and he sure could do with some of that at this point! It will be interesting how this situation will end. BTW, I really LOL about the 'Angel Condom' part.

I never really thought about the character of the vessel an angel picks. I mean, his soul and emotions will be totally erased by the angel when he/she takes over. The way Castiel just walked past Jimmy's daughter who was in obvious distress in The Rapture showed that quite clearly.

iolanda
September 12th, 2009, 12:24 AM
Do you think that it was on purpose, that the "I knew it scene" was about the exactly like the one in "Galaxy Quest"?
I first was a little bit puzzled by the scene, but then I thought that it might have been an homage.

All over all: great episode.

The cuts in the beginning were a little bit too hard and I think the timing was off - there must have been several hours with landing that plane, lending a car and driving to Chuck and drawing funny signs on the wall, and then Chuck is there and looks like the whole stuff with Cas has happened 10 minutes ago.

I liked the way they introduced Nick, and the way Lucifer lulled him into letting him in.

Poor Bobby. I didn't understand at first, that he is paralysed. Isn't it a little bit uncommon to hurt a spine by a stab like this? The scene with Demon!Bobby and Sam was very intense. I at first did not understand why Dean didn't intervene, but it is explained in the end.

Imho the thing which really hurt Deans trust was when Sam actively choose Ruby over him in the chapel, when he had the chance to just stop and listen.

starg8fans
September 12th, 2009, 12:36 AM
The cuts in the beginning were a little bit too hard and I think the timing was off - there must have been several hours with landing that plane, lending a car and driving to Chuck and drawing funny signs on the wall, and then Chuck is there and looks like the whole stuff with Cas has happened 10 minutes ago.

I figure this episode went way over time, and they had to cut a scene that would have explained the blood glyph. I mean, they did have an awful amount of stuff to cover, so if it got a bit rushed in the end it's not surprising.


Poor Bobby. I didn't understand at first, that he is paralysed. Isn't it a little bit uncommon to hurt a spine by a stab like this?

I was wondering the same thing, but then Bobby talks about his 'game leg'. Maybe he cut through a major nerve when he stabbed himself, and only one leg is paralyzed.


Imho the thing which really hurt Deans trust was when Sam actively choose Ruby over him in the chapel, when he had the chance to just stop and listen.

That and when Sam walked out the door although Dean threatened that it would end their relationship. What I'm still missing is the two of them finding out that Zachariah changed Dean's message on Sam's voicemail. I sure hope they'll address this issue at some later point, it's another wedge that was driven between the two brothers.

iolanda
September 12th, 2009, 01:39 AM
I figure this episode went way over time, and they had to cut a scene that would have explained the blood glyph. I mean, they did have an awful amount of stuff to cover, so if it got a bit rushed in the end it's not surprising.

Yeah, there was a lot of stuff going on, so cutting right there wasn't the worst choice, but it was a bit obvious.



I was wondering the same thing, but then Bobby talks about his 'game leg'. Maybe he cut through a major nerve when he stabbed himself, and only one leg is paralyzed.

I guess we'll have to see how they picture his disability in the end. I have a bunch of friends who have handicaps, and I tend to eye this topic sometimes a little bit too thorough.


That and when Sam walked out the door although Dean threatened that it would end their relationship. What I'm still missing is the two of them finding out that Zachariah changed Dean's message on Sam's voicemail. I sure hope they'll address this issue at some later point, it's another wedge that was driven between the two brothers.

Who wouldn't had walked out (<-gr?) in that situation? They had a large fight and were beyond angry in that moment. Both of them needed some time to calm down, and that was impossible in this room.
The manipulation of Deans message was much worse and I hope that they even that out more sooner than later.

flameling
September 12th, 2009, 06:36 AM
My take:
1. God saved them and Cass becuase Dean is Michael's vessel, but perhaps Sam is God?
2. Glad to see Cass kick ass. Thelast time we saw him fight Alistair kicked his ass, which could be understandable and then Uriel immediately afterwards. I'm still hoping Cass kills Zach later.
3. I think Lucifer would have saved Sam for freeing him and convinced him to join him. God probably saved the two of them so Michael can lead a charge of angels vs. demons while God throws the devil into the lake of fire.
4. Finally a Winchester says no to self sacrifice! The lesson that the trickster tried to teach has been taught!
5. Poor Bobby.
6. I wonder how they'll be with Meg this season. Hard to beat Nikki's portrayal.

Colonel Rebel
September 12th, 2009, 07:32 AM
I enjoyed this episode. I'm glad Castiel is okay. And it was good to see Meg again. The guy playing Lucifer is a good actor. I'm pretty excited about where the show is headed this season. The tension between the brothers is good for now, but I hope it doesn't last too long.

LizzieAnne
September 12th, 2009, 08:38 AM
Loved the ep and so much was packed into it.

Maybe Lucifer saved Dean and Sam as he wanted Sam saved for his later plans and Dean just got swept up with him. Although Cas did imply that he knew who it was and Zach was afraid. That seems to suggest that it was God.

I imagine Kripke will have an interesting take on Lucifer, God and their relationship. You can be sure that it’s not going to be the conventional wisdom.

I love Meg returning again. As for Bobby being possessed…when Meg possessed Sam she showed how powerful she’d become…breaking out of the devil’s trap..so perhaps she’s become even more powerful especially now that Lucifer’s walking free.

I agree that there’s probably a scene with the blood glyph somewhere on the cutting room floor to explain that. I had to watch it again to make sure I hadn’t missed a bit.

The scene with Becky was hilarious. I’m saying no more. :D

Feeling slightly uneasy with Dean behaving the way he is.

marielabbott
September 12th, 2009, 09:07 AM
I also wonder how Bobby became possessed. I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't have a tattoo like the boys, especially after what happened with his wife. They should have had a line at least to address that, I think. But are the tattoos like the devil's traps, can they be rendered non-functioning if the symbol is broken? Tattoos are only skin deep, so if Bobby was ganged up on, and a slice was made...it's a horrible thought, but it occurred to me that might be an explanation as to how it happened. Off-screen. :p And also why Cas engraved his protective symbol on the boys' ribs.

I wasn't a fan of the fan girl, but otherwise I really liked the episode. Lucifer was very scary, using psychological manipulation to get what he wanted. I'm glad God hasn't left the building, but unsure of how the portrayal will be. Sam is repentant--rightly so, he's got a lot to answer for--and it will be interesting to see how they repair the relationship between him and Dean.

LoneStar1836
September 12th, 2009, 02:03 PM
I like the idea that God will have a hand at the end of this story arc, but I agree with you that the 'all powerful' angle has a certain danger to it. But I trust the writers not to pull the 'mysterious last minute save' card too often. They are too creative to have to resort to this whenever the boys get into a really tight spot. I think it was a good ploy this time because it was totally unexpected, and it added to the mystery.

As for the implications, this may very well be a red herring. It's a little too obvious, if you know what I mean...That is a concern of mine, but I'll trust that tptb won't use that as a crutch.

And as far as the red herring...I hate those. :D Which is why I'm not 100% sold that it was God, but I'll lean with that interpretation until told otherwise by the show.



I never really thought about the character of the vessel an angel picks. I mean, his soul and emotions will be totally erased by the angel when he/she takes over. The way Castiel just walked past Jimmy's daughter who was in obvious distress in The Rapture showed that quite clearly.Exactly (though they aren't totally erased...more like put in cold storage for the duration), but we as the viewer have an idea who Nick was before Lucifer took advantage of him. So it plays into how we see him now even though Nick is no longer in control. That's probably part of the reason they gave us the backstory with Castiel in The Rapture last season. Anyway I can't really see that being a factor in swaying Sam and Dean's feelings about Lucifer, but it does play with how the viewers see him.



I also wonder how Bobby became possessed. I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't have a tattoo like the boys, especially after what happened with his wife. They should have had a line at least to address that, I think. But are the tattoos like the devil's traps, can they be rendered non-functioning if the symbol is broken? Tattoos are only skin deep, so if Bobby was ganged up on, and a slice was made...it's a horrible thought, but it occurred to me that might be an explanation as to how it happened. Off-screen. :p And also why Cas engraved his protective symbol on the boys' ribs.Great speculation there. I like it. :) So if the writers never touch on the why, I can just go with that.;)

MB.Eddie
September 12th, 2009, 04:47 PM
Great start to the season :)

the fifth man
September 12th, 2009, 05:29 PM
Great start to the season :)

Very true, although a little understated IMO.:)

starg8fans
September 12th, 2009, 10:30 PM
I also wonder how Bobby became possessed. I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't have a tattoo like the boys, especially after what happened with his wife. They should have had a line at least to address that, I think. But are the tattoos like the devil's traps, can they be rendered non-functioning if the symbol is broken? Tattoos are only skin deep, so if Bobby was ganged up on, and a slice was made...it's a horrible thought, but it occurred to me that might be an explanation as to how it happened. Off-screen. :p And also why Cas engraved his protective symbol on the boys' ribs.


Great speculation there. I like it. :) So if the writers never touch on the why, I can just go with that.;)

I was thinking along the same lines. These skin-deep charms can be destroyed, remember how Bobby lifted the binding charm Meg put on Sam by putting a burn across it in Born under a Bad Sign?


That is a concern of mine, but I'll trust that tptb won't use that as a crutch.

And as far as the red herring...I hate those. :D Which is why I'm not 100% sold that it was God, but I'll lean with that interpretation until told otherwise by the show.

One thing the writers are really good at is surprising us with unexpected twists. I've lost track of how many times I did not see something coming. So whatever it is they have in store for the God story arc, I'm pretty sure it will be beyond our wildest speculations.


Exactly (though they aren't totally erased...more like put in cold storage for the duration), but we as the viewer have an idea who Nick was before Lucifer took advantage of him. So it plays into how we see him now even though Nick is no longer in control. That's probably part of the reason they gave us the backstory with Castiel in The Rapture last season. Anyway I can't really see that being a factor in swaying Sam and Dean's feelings about Lucifer, but it does play with how the viewers see him.

You're right, it is nice to get a feeling for the vessels' real lives. Jimmy was totally different from how I pictured him based on his clothes and Cas' description of a 'devout man'. I hadn't pegged him as a family man, for once. So with Nick the writers approach it the other way round, by having us meet him before he's taken over.

Did Nick's dead wife remember anybody else of Tessa? Not just the looks, but also the way she spoke.

Lord Kira
September 12th, 2009, 11:15 PM
I really enjoyed this episode. Especially Bobby. When he disowned Sam, I should have known that something wasn't right. But it made for an amazing scene played perfectly by Jim and Jared. As with the Bobby and Sam scene at the end.

It sucks about Bobby's legs, though. I can't believe he's paralyzed! I think his hunting career is pretty much done.

I liked what they did with Mark and Lucifer. With the tragedy that happened to Mark's wife and baby, I can understand why he would want be angry at God. Hell, many of us have felt the same way when we lose someone we love. So it was perfectly understandable why would allow Lucifer to enter his body.

I loved this little scene between the two of them:

Lucifer: "My name is Lucifer."
Nick (very skeptical): "Sure. Naturally. Um - could you do me a favor there, Satan, and remind me to quit drinking before I go to bed."

spork67
September 13th, 2009, 09:49 AM
Did Nick's dead wife remember anybody else of Tessa? Not just the looks, but also the way she spoke.

The way she spoke to Nick reminded me instantly of the way Tessa spoke to Dean in "In My Time of Dying". I thought it was a brilliant touch. I also couldn't shake how much Nick (and maybe its because they look similar) made me think of Michael (Kenmore) while I was watching his scenes.

starg8fans
September 13th, 2009, 10:33 AM
The way she spoke to Nick reminded me instantly of the way Tessa spoke to Dean in "In My Time of Dying". I thought it was a brilliant touch. I also couldn't shake how much Nick (and maybe its because they look similar) made me think of Michael (Kenmore) while I was watching his scenes.

That's it! I was wondering who he reminded me of... Well spotted, Spork.

She reminded me even more of Tessa in Death takes a holiday, when she was talking to the boy who didn't want to leave his mother. Didn't she also wear a white dress in that scene?

spork67
September 13th, 2009, 10:38 AM
That's it! I was wondering who he reminded me of... Well spotted, Spork.

She reminded me even more of Tessa in Death takes a holiday, when she was talking to the boy who didn't want to leave his mother. Didn't she also wear a white dress in that scene?

I'm not sure about the dress, but you're right about "Death Takes a Holiday". Every time I think of Tessa though, "In My Time of Dying" is the first thing that pops into my head.

And yeah, there were a lot of moments in there, especially in that last scene between Nick and Lucifer that really made me think of Michael... which is funny because before Mark Pellegrino was cast as Lucifer a friend of mine and I said that Connor Trinneer should do it!

starg8fans
September 13th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I'm not sure about the dress, but you're right about "Death Takes a Holiday". Every time I think of Tessa though, "In My Time of Dying" is the first thing that pops into my head.

And yeah, there were a lot of moments in there, especially in that last scene between Nick and Lucifer that really made me think of Michael... which is funny because before Mark Pellegrino was cast as Lucifer a friend of mine and I said that Connor Trinneer should do it!

I really like Tessa's character, so I was glad they brought her back.

I've never seen Mark P. in 'action', but from what I've seen you're right, there is a certain resemblance to Connor. Anyway, as far as I know this is a totally new look for the devil. In any other portrayal I've ever seen he was always dark haired.

the fifth man
September 13th, 2009, 05:35 PM
I really like Tessa's character, so I was glad they brought her back.

I've never seen Mark P. in 'action', but from what I've seen you're right, there is a certain resemblance to Connor. Anyway, as far as I know this is a totally new look for the devil. In any other portrayal I've ever seen he was always dark haired.

In this portrayal of Lucifer, I don't think the hair color will be the only difference. Should be really interesting stuff.

starg8fans
September 13th, 2009, 08:54 PM
In this portrayal of Lucifer, I don't think the hair color will be the only difference. Should be really interesting stuff.

Absolutely. The writers have such a wonderfully skewed way of dealing with cliches and preconceived notions. Whatever their take on something, you know it's gonna be different - just think of the Very Supernatural Christmas. Even though Zachariah said it's "Apocalypse Now" - and I thought that was funny too, kinda expected the 'Ride of the Valkyrie' to start up any moment - this Armageddon will be like nothing that's ever been done before.

Arative
September 14th, 2009, 06:49 AM
I've had a few days to think of this now and I read through the thread and people are making a big deal of Dean not sacrificing himself for Sam. That got me thinking of the last scene between Dean and Sam, how basically Dean doesn't trust Sam any more. Do you think possibly that's the reason he wouldn't sacrifice himself for Sam? In past seasons, Dean would have done it without thinking but after the events of last season, now he won't.

iolanda
September 14th, 2009, 07:03 AM
I've had a few days to think of this now and I read through the thread and people are making a big deal of Dean not sacrificing himself for Sam. That got me thinking of the last scene between Dean and Sam, how basically Dean doesn't trust Sam any more. Do you think possibly that's the reason he wouldn't sacrifice himself for Sam? In past seasons, Dean would have done it without thinking but after the events of last season, now he won't.

I think that he refused to sacrifice himself, because he is fed up with being a tool for the angels, especially Zachariah. I don't think that this was because he doesn't trust Sam any more. Dean already gave everything for Sam, his life, his soul, and now it's time for a different way, a way he chooses. And for this he was ready to sacrifice both of them.

Andron
September 14th, 2009, 07:23 AM
So here's finally my little review :p

That's how you start a season!

The episode starts right where last season left of with Lucifer's spirit getting out. All the signs (the bright light and the deafening sound) really identify him as an angel (more to that later), so that confirms the lore of Lucifer getting kicked out of heaven by arcangel Michael (Lucifer Rising).
Sam and Dean get wisked away, not a second too late, by a mysterious power (God's first intervention or was it Michael?!) and brought onto a plane. This must have been a special thing for Dean who's mortally afraid of flying, especially when the plane went down!

The world seems already to go to hell with all the natural disasters and pandemics - sings of the Apocalyps?!

Love that they already brought back Chuck, our favourite prophet. He already got a little more involved by sending Becky (the Sam fangirl/ slash fan; very funny girl, hope to see her and fans like her again) to the brothers with his prophecy about the Michael Sword. Hope, that he won't be a stranger this season.
So Castiel exploded „Like a water balloon of chunky soup“, but got brought back by a mysterious power - God's second intervention or is God undercover in Castiel's vessel... (can't wait to to finally meet God, wonder who will play him)
Castiel also carved an "anokian sigil" into Dean's and Sam's ribs that will make them invisible to all angels, including Lucifer. So they won't always be stalk by Zach ;)
Mischa Collins has been promoted to a full cast member, which is just great – the more Castiel the better.

I knew right when Bobby said to Sam that, when this is over he should loose his number, that it couldn't really be our Bobby. He would never turn his back on the boys. Something that bugged me was how in all the world it was possible for a demon to possess him, doesn't he have anti-possession tatoo or something like that. Normally, Bobby is the most prepared – I just don't think this could ever happen. That's the only thing I didn't like in this episode.

Now to Sam who spent the whole episode looking like a kicked puppy. He desperately wanted to be blamed for what he did, take his punishment, and get it over with. Dean wasn't going to play, and he didn't want to talk. Sam made the worst mistake any human has ever made, after all. He has a lot to make up for. I really hope that Dean will come to realize that to beat this whole thing he must learn to trust Sam again, even though it may seem not possible now.

What about Sam's powers?! Did he really loose them when they got rescued by the heavenly power? And he got no craving anymore for demon blood, which is a good side effect.

Dean is the vessel of Michael. I find it good twist that angels need the permission to inhabit a persons body, otherwise they wouldn't be better than their counterparts the demons (they are after all not that different in their behaviour apart from that). Dean really didn't want to be the angel's puppet so he wouldn't let Michael take over ("Life as an angel condom. That's real fun. I think I'll pass, thanks.") even if it meant giving up his own and his brothers life, as well as Bobby's ability to walk (hope he will recover). Earlier or later Dean may just have to give up his body to stop Lucifer if God doesn't intervene.
Liked that Dean has learned to get rid of angels from Castiel, may come in handy this season.

To Mark Pellegrino, he gave just an exceptional performance as Nick who wasn't at all fortunate in life. Having lost his wife and baby during a robbery and being now totally alone. So it's understandable that he blames God for his tortures life and is by this receptable to Lucifer's consolation. Lucifer said he doesn't lie. From what he said to Nick, it might even really be true. “I can't give you your family back. If I take your body, it won't be pleasant for you.” Of course, Lucifer could be the master of understatement.

Lots of set-up for the season. Dean and Sam together again, even though there are, understandably, trust issues. Bring on the rest of the season!

P-90_177
September 14th, 2009, 08:20 AM
I knew right when Bobby said to Sam that, when this is over he should loose his number, that it couldn't really be our Bobby. He would never turn his back on the boys. Something that bugged me was how in all the world it was possible for a demon to possess him, doesn't he have anti-possession tatoo or something like that. Normally, Bobby is the most prepared – I just don't think this could ever happen. That's the only thing I didn't like in this episode.


He probably does have the tattoo. However most of the devil traps and other charms that require a circle , become useless as soon as the circle is broken. So if a Demon came in and attacked bobby with a knife, slashed across his chest then a demon could easily get in........or possibly Boby has a insane fear of needles and could never bring himself to get a a tat.

Andron
September 14th, 2009, 08:27 AM
He probably does have the tattoo. However most of the devil traps and other charms that require a circle , become useless as soon as the circle is broken. So if a Demon came in and attacked bobby with a knife, slashed across his chest then a demon could easily get in........or possibly Boby has a insane fear of needles and could never bring himself to get a a tat.

The attack with a knive or anything like it to break the charm sounds reasonable. I guess, we may never really find out how it happened.

Crichiel
September 14th, 2009, 10:41 AM
I think that he refused to sacrifice himself, because he is fed up with being a tool for the angels, especially Zachariah. I don't think that this was because he doesn't trust Sam any more. Dean already gave everything for Sam, his life, his soul, and now it's time for a different way, a way he chooses. And for this he was ready to sacrifice both of them.

I agree with this. I see it as Dean finally learning his lesson about self-sacrifice and that the ends don't always justify the means. I definitely didn't take it as a personal slight against Sam because he also said no to curing Bobby and himself.

starg8fans
September 14th, 2009, 10:57 AM
I agree with this. I see it as Dean finally learning his lesson about self-sacrifice and that the ends don't always justify the means. I definitely didn't take it as a personal slight against Sam because he also said no to curing Bobby and himself.

I'm also beginning to think that Dean was taunting Zachariah. He wanted to show the 'two-faced douche' that despite his divine powers he didn't hold all the cards. Dean knows that they need him, and Sam is the only clout they have to force him to do what they want. The angel couldn't kill either of them without endangering Michael's return. So Dean called his bluff. Maybe he was only trying to buy them some time, but it paid off when Cas so conveniently showed up and put his former boss in his place.

Crichiel
September 14th, 2009, 11:09 AM
I'm also beginning to think that Dean was taunting Zachariah. He wanted to show the 'two-faced douche' that despite his divine powers he didn't hold all the cards. Dean knows that they need him, and Sam is the only clout they have to force him to do what they want. The angel couldn't kill either of them without endangering Michael's return. So Dean called his bluff. Maybe he was only trying to buy them some time, but it paid off when Cas so conveniently showed up and put his former boss in his place.

And Dean's actually shown before that he will call a bluff. He did the same thing in It's Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester when he told Uriel to go ahead and smite the town...with him and Sam in it.

flameling
September 14th, 2009, 03:34 PM
I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

LoneStar1836
September 14th, 2009, 04:03 PM
I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?
I wondered if that wasn't a possibility.

the fifth man
September 14th, 2009, 06:19 PM
I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

Could have been. This plan has been in the works for a very long time.

starg8fans
September 14th, 2009, 11:51 PM
I have a question, did any one else get the feeling that a demon killed his family?

No, I didn't think of it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, unless the intruder was a psychopath, he may kill the mother if she caught him re-handed, but why would he kill a baby? It would have been much harder, if not impossible for Lucifer to convince Nick to act as his vessel if he had a wife and kid, so like Fifth said, this must have been set up quite some time ago.

Andron
September 15th, 2009, 01:52 AM
No, I didn't think of it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, unless the intruder was a psychopath, he may kill the mother if she caught him re-handed, but why would he kill a baby? It would have been much harder, if not impossible for Lucifer to convince Nick to act as his vessel if he had a wife and kid, so like Fifth said, this must have been set up quite some time ago.

That's actually quite a clever plan of the demons to prepare Nick to become Lucifer's vessel. Kill everyone he loves and make it, so to speak, like an accident with no real connection to Lucifer himself. That way it looks like God abandoned Nick by letting the murder happen even tough it was orchestrated by the followers of Lucifer.
Hopefully this will be addressed in the show, if it actually happened this way.

Thanks for the theory guys and gals :D

Crichiel
September 15th, 2009, 08:54 AM
No, I didn't think of it, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, unless the intruder was a psychopath, he may kill the mother if she caught him re-handed, but why would he kill a baby? It would have been much harder, if not impossible for Lucifer to convince Nick to act as his vessel if he had a wife and kid, so like Fifth said, this must have been set up quite some time ago.

I too never thought about that, but I can see it. We know Azazel had his own 35 yr. plan put into motion by Lucifer. It isn't that big a stretch that Lucifer had more than just this one 'psychic kids' scheme with Yellow Eyes, Lilith, and Ruby going on during that time. He seems like a 'bigger picture' kind of guy! ;)

starg8fans
October 19th, 2009, 12:17 AM
Just re-watched Sympathy for the Devil, and I payed special attention to Dean's behaviour towards Sam - knowing what I know now about the state of their relationship in the later eps.

First of all, when Demon!Bobby came down on Sam like a ton of bricks, Dean never said a word to defend his brother, which was very unusual. I think the reason for this was that he'd kept his own anger and resentment at what Sam had done bottles up inside for so long, he was glad somebody else blamed Sam in the manner he would allow himself.

Then later, when Bobby told Sam in the hospital he never meant the words the demon made him say, Dean looked sort of thoughtful. Now the earlier tirade was rendered meaningless, he decided to come clean himself. It's like he needs Sam aware that his actions hurt somebody very close to him.

As for not taking any of the blame for breaking the first seal, there were two references to it. First in the motel room Dean said, "We made a mess, we clean it up." And later in the parking lot he tells Sam, "I know how sorry you are, I do." I take that to mean that he's been there himself with the self reproach.

Anyway, I don't think the issue Dean has with Sam is the fact that he brought on the Apocalypse. It's the fact that he turned his back on his family to side with a demon. And this is one reason why in my opinion Sam's more to blame for breaking a crucial seal than his older brother. Dean did what he did to break the first seal because it was the only way out from horrible, unending torture. And I don't think he expected any repercussions since he thought he'd be stuck in the pit for eternity. Sam chose the path willingly, and against the combined advice of Dean, Bobby and Castiel, knowing that his decisions would affect billions of lives. Of course he had the best intentions, but he was too sure of himself and chose to disregard anybody else's opinion.

Crichiel
October 19th, 2009, 07:12 AM
First of all, when Demon!Bobby came down on Sam like a ton of bricks, Dean never said a word to defend his brother, which was very unusual. I think the reason for this was that he'd kept his own anger and resentment at what Sam had done bottles up inside for so long, he was glad somebody else blamed Sam in the manner he would allow himself.

Then later, when Bobby told Sam in the hospital he never meant the words the demon made him say, Dean looked sort of thoughtful. Now the earlier tirade was rendered meaningless, he decided to come clean himself. It's like he needs Sam aware that his actions hurt somebody very close to him.

As for not taking any of the blame for breaking the first seal, there were two references to it. First in the motel room Dean said, "We made a mess, we clean it up." And later in the parking lot he tells Sam, "I know how sorry you are, I do." I take that to mean that he's been there himself with the self reproach.

It IS really interesting to go back in any season, watch the first couple of episodes, and then put them into the context of what happens later! :)

Actually the first and third points here, I did bring up in my original post of this ep ;). Dean letting Bobby yell at Sam while he just stood by was one of my examples of Dean acting OOC. And also why I said I was half-expecting that during that scene DEAN was possessed, because he generally won't let anyone but himself yell at Sam. But, yes it is interesting to now put it in the viewpoint of subsequent episodes. We know now just how much anger Dean was holding onto over this.

And, having just watched Dead Man's Blood last night I was also reminded that Dean DID let their dad talk to Sam like that. And Bobby is like their dad, so that and the fact that Dean himself wanted to say all these things but was bottling it up would explain his letting Sam take the heat there.

In my original post, when I pointed out that Dean said "We started this...", I think I actually gave him more credit then than I do now after seeing Fallen Idols. When I hear it now it bugs me even more because just like in Fallen Idols I take it more as that, "It's not ALL your fault." It's too offhand. He doesn't sound like the tragically remorseful Dean of Heaven and Hell, Family Remains, and OTHOAP.

Whether it was Dean's fault or not, what he did in Hell and breaking the first seal hit two different nerves for him: 1) the knowledge of the pain he inflicted on those other souls and the fact that he enjoyed it when he is supposed to fight monsters that do the things he did and 2) his sore spot of disappointing his father, which he felt like he did by breaking in 30 years when his dad didn't break in 100. That's a whole lot of guilt and this is Dean we are talking about. I mean, Azazel magically spirited Sam away from him to a different state where Jake stabbed him in the back and Dean blamed HIMSELF for that one!! Dean hasn't been shown to let guilt go that easily. So, I guess it's been the blase way that Dean has admitted his guilt this season that's is irritating me.

But I think the point behind all this, as you pointed out (and as Dean says at the end of this episode), is that it isn't the apocalypse that Dean is upset about so much as the betrayal.

LizzieAnne
October 19th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Just re-watched Sympathy for the Devil, and I payed special attention to Dean's behaviour towards Sam - knowing what I know now about the state of their relationship in the later eps.

First of all, when Demon!Bobby came down on Sam like a ton of bricks, Dean never said a word to defend his brother, which was very unusual. I think the reason for this was that he'd kept his own anger and resentment at what Sam had done bottles up inside for so long, he was glad somebody else blamed Sam in the manner he would allow himself.

Then later, when Bobby told Sam in the hospital he never meant the words the demon made him say, Dean looked sort of thoughtful. Now the earlier tirade was rendered meaningless, he decided to come clean himself. It's like he needs Sam aware that his actions hurt somebody very close to him.

As for not taking any of the blame for breaking the first seal, there were two references to it. First in the motel room Dean said, "We made a mess, we clean it up." And later in the parking lot he tells Sam, "I know how sorry you are, I do." I take that to mean that he's been there himself with the self reproach.

Anyway, I don't think the issue Dean has with Sam is the fact that he brought on the Apocalypse. It's the fact that he turned his back on his family to side with a demon. And this is one reason why in my opinion Sam's more to blame for breaking a crucial seal than his older brother. Dean did what he did to break the first seal because it was the only way out from horrible, unending torture. And I don't think he expected any repercussions since he thought he'd be stuck in the pit for eternity. Sam chose the path willingly, and against the combined advice of Dean, Bobby and Castiel, knowing that his decisions would affect billions of lives. Of course he had the best intentions, but he was too sure of himself and chose to disregard anybody else's opinion.

I agree in so far that I think Dean was more upset about being betrayed than anything else….I think that was shown with his overwhelming desire to kill Ruby in the last 2 eps of season 4.

But I don't think that Sam's more guilty than Dean at all.

I’m still of the opinion that the only time Sam was guilty of making a clear headed wrong choice was when Dean first came back from hell and he kept secretly seeing Ruby. He could and should have told Dean at that point.

All the other times he was either totally grief stricken and drunk(after Dean died and nothing he did, again and again, to bring him back worked and then he succumbed to Ruby) or addicted to demon blood (again Ruby…Sam was desperate for revenge on Lilith…and Ruby showed him how he could become stronger) All those things blurred his normal good judgement.

Dean made the ultimate loving sacrifice by giving up his soul for Sam but that was his choice...freely given. He knew he'd done wrong...he looked incredibly guilty as Bobby forced it out of him.

Also Sam was infected with demon blood as a baby...no consent or choice by him then...with the intention to make him more vulnerable to temptation and manipulation later.


It IS really interesting to go back in any season, watch the first couple of episodes, and then put them into the context of what happens later! :)

Actually the first and third points here, I did bring up in my original post of this ep ;). Dean letting Bobby yell at Sam while he just stood by was one of my examples of Dean acting OOC. And also why I said I was half-expecting that during that scene DEAN was possessed, because he generally won't let anyone but himself yell at Sam. But, yes it is interesting to now put it in the viewpoint of subsequent episodes. We know now just how much anger Dean was holding onto over this.

And, having just watched Dead Man's Blood last night I was also reminded that Dean DID let their dad talk to Sam like that. And Bobby is like their dad, so that and the fact that Dean himself wanted to say all these things but was bottling it up would explain his letting Sam take the heat there.

In my original post, when I pointed out that Dean said "We started this...", I think I actually gave him more credit then than I do now after seeing Fallen Idols. When I hear it now it bugs me even more because just like in Fallen Idols I take it more as that, "It's not ALL your fault." It's too offhand. He doesn't sound like the tragically remorseful Dean of Heaven and Hell, Family Remains, and OTHOAP.

Whether it was Dean's fault or not, what he did in Hell and breaking the first seal hit two different nerves for him: 1) the knowledge of the pain he inflicted on those other souls and the fact that he enjoyed it when he is supposed to fight monsters that do the things he did and 2) his sore spot of disappointing his father, which he felt like he did by breaking in 30 years when his dad didn't break in 100. That's a whole lot of guilt and this is Dean we are talking about. I mean, Azazel magically spirited Sam away from him to a different state where Jake stabbed him in the back and Dean blamed HIMSELF for that one!! Dean hasn't been shown to let guilt go that easily. So, I guess it's been the blase way that Dean has admitted his guilt this season that's is irritating me.

But I think the point behind all this, as you pointed out (and as Dean says at the end of this episode), is that it isn't the apocalypse that Dean is upset about so much as the betrayal.

I really do think that it's Dean's guilt that's caused his behaviour.... the same with Cas.

queen_hathor
January 25th, 2010, 11:03 AM
I've been re-watching S5 (finally! :o) so I'll join in the discussions now. I've got a lot to read through, so I may be best doing a few posts to catch up, rather than a huge on that no-one wants to read! :p

Quick version - loved this ep, great season opener. So much going on, promised great things! :D

LtColCarter
February 4th, 2010, 10:14 AM
I've been re-watching S5 (finally! :o) so I'll join in the discussions now. I've got a lot to read through, so I may be best doing a few posts to catch up, rather than a huge on that no-one wants to read! :p

Quick version - loved this ep, great season opener. So much going on, promised great things! :D

are you rewatching online?

Rose "Snapjinx" McKnight
February 17th, 2010, 06:26 AM
Wahahahaha! Finally got around to Season 5 AND found this lovely bit of Gateworld. Lovely. :D

So, the best part of this ep was Cas's re-entrance. I didn't honestly think he was dead, but it was awesome how the first time you see him, he's pulling a dagger out of an angel's neck. :D :D
Also, really loved Chuck in this episode. The guy's growing on me. "There's a molar in my hair!" :lol:

LtColCarter
February 17th, 2010, 07:21 AM
Wahahahaha! Finally got around to Season 5 AND found this lovely bit of Gateworld. Lovely. :D

So, the best part of this ep was Cas's re-entrance. I didn't honestly think he was dead, but it was awesome how the first time you see him, he's pulling a dagger out of an angel's neck. :D :D
Also, really loved Chuck in this episode. The guy's growing on me. "There's a molar in my hair!" :lol:

Welcome! :D