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GateWorld
December 14th, 2004, 09:03 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/820.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/820.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>MOEBIUS, PART 2</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 820</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
With the timeline changed by SG-1's actions in the distant past, an alternate version of SG-1 must use the newly-discovered time ship to set things right.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/820.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Skydiver
February 22nd, 2005, 06:45 AM
this should be airing in a couple of hours for the UK'ers.

let me please, please, please ask you to remember spoiler space when talking about this eps in any other thread but this one. Some of us won't be seeing it for weeks and would appreciate having some surprises to enjoy

Have fun kids :)

shaqarava
February 22nd, 2005, 11:30 AM
Okay, watching the first half as I type...

Sam and Daniel persist to be part of the mission through the gate, Jack decides to head the mission after Kawalski pulled some strings. He manages to turn the puddle jumper on, though it seems as if he does it with more ease than his alternate timeline counterpart. Mckay manages to name the puddlejumper Gate ship, no Shepperd here to argue otherwise.

The puddle jumper enters the gate and they see a city is set down nearby. The team made of jack, sam and daniel as well as kawalski head for a city and walk into a trap and are taken prisoners. In their cell they meet Teal'c and Daniel attempts to explain to him of the situation. Teal'c seems undeterred, and takes Daniel before Apophis leaving his team mates behind. Apophis interrogates Daniel with the hand device.

When ordered to leave the interrogation Teal'c returns to the cell and orders the tape to be shown to him. Teal'c is swayed after he sees his alternate counterpart tell him of the jaffa being free and of Ryac etc and returns the weapons and intents to meet up with the team later. On their way back, Teal'c shoots Daniel saying that he was implanted with a goa'uld as a Spy. Teal'c also revealed that Apophis now knows of the threat of Earth and intends to send a fleet of Hattak vessels and destory Earth.

The team is ambushed by a heavy force of Jaffa and they retreat back to the puddlejumper. In the firefight kawalski is hit and is left behind as the Jaffa swarm in on the departing puddlejumper. On the ship Sam seems bothered by the fact she just saw Daniel and kawalski die, and then the ship is attacked by gliders. The ship continues heading towards the gate. In a desperate attempt to escape, they activate the time device and attempt to dial earth...the gate opens to Ancient Egypt.

Wass
February 22nd, 2005, 11:31 AM
Ok so far not bad but not the best

the dancer of spaz
February 22nd, 2005, 11:33 AM
oy. I cannot handle the suspense. ;)

Give it time, Wass! :D

Cpn. Chris(tine) Bowman
February 22nd, 2005, 11:41 AM
I haven't read the synopsis :D I wanna keep the suspense until I can see tomorrow of after tomorrow :D 45 mins doesn't seem long enough for this plot :D There's so much interesting stuff!

I can't wait!!!!!

shaqarava
February 22nd, 2005, 11:54 AM
...Okay, second half... my wrists hurt :p

The jumper is set down, and the team depart and Jack plans to make contact with the locals... and that's all the plans jack has :D ...

They enter a village and make contact with the man they met from mobius part 1 the brother of the guy who was killed infront of Ra, and this guy, dunno how to spell his name :p tells them to follow him for hiding as patrols are on their way... He reveals that he met the other team 5 years ago, and tells of a planned rebellion that the other SG-1 organised failed and that they were executed, except for 1, a hooded man enteres the tent... it's Daniel.

Daniel asks where his other couterpart was and teal'c explains that he had to kill him lol, and asks them if they know why they're there... Jack seems to be clueless. Daniel explains the story to them. Carter says they read the tablet that Daniel has yet to write and says how the rebellion actually worked but ra took the gate with him exaplining how sam and daniel in the alternate timeline did not join the sgc.

A child runs in the tent warning of Jaffa entering the camp, and the team hides in some sort of basement filled numerous staff weapons. Daniel reveales of several thousand available people, and they discuss how if the rebellion succeeds then the problem is stealing the gate so that Ra does not take it with him whent he insurrection works. They think of using the cloak, and Jack is annoyed that he was unaware of the cloak, despite Daniels efforts to say he thought he mentioned it on the tape.

Sam and Jack walk in the desert discussing, and Sam tells of how they must destroy the timeship once they make it back. They enter the jumper to test the cloak. Meanwhile Daniel, Teal'c and the egyptian guy discuss strategy back at the camp. Back at the jumper Sam works on the cloak and Jack reveals his attraction to Sam in a less than intimate manner, and in turn Sam reveals how she is attracted to Daniel, lol :p , Jack is flabbergasted.

A jaffa patrol heads towards the jumper, jack tries hard to activate the cloak but nothing happens, and due to Sam's tweaking on the ship, the jumper fails to lift off. Jack unknowingly activates the cloak, the patrol don't see the ship, but suddenly the cloak gives way and the Jaffa scramble and open fire on the jumper. Sam and Jack retreat to the rear compartment. Meanwhile Daniel and teal'c are not far from the jumper and they huddle down to look at the situation. In the puddle jumper, Sam kisses Jack in anticpation of their deaths, and reveals she lied about liking Daniel.

Teal'c verbally confronts the patrol to attempt to get them on their side, but fails, and gives the signal for reinforcements to arrive, the rebellion. Meanwhile Jack and Sam get more intimiate inside the Jumper.

Back at the SGC they rewatch the tape to see for any differences and notice nothing has changed, mission accomplised. They leave, then the fishing scene out Jack's house again from the other recent episode.

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 11:56 AM
a great episode. i like how at the end they had a slightly altered version of the scene at the end of threads. this was a great episode and a great finale which is totally different from anything ever done in stargate before.

i can't wait for season 9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shaqarava
February 22nd, 2005, 11:56 AM
I thought this finale was rather dissapointing, it wasn't as nearly as epic than reckoning was.

Teal'c
February 22nd, 2005, 12:04 PM
Brilliant, brilliant episode. I think it was all worth it just to get McKay's Gateship bit again :P

I got a bit confused at the very end thinking "Eh... they put this in Threads too" :P Jack's pond now has fish though... which means anything that screws up from now on (can technically in The Siege as well) can be explained away by the timeline alterations :P

I really wanted to see the Puddle Jumper get the gate though :(

alkalinemono
February 22nd, 2005, 12:05 PM
yea the end was good it was a good finale

cybersyd
February 22nd, 2005, 12:08 PM
First impression after watching the ep... my brain hurts! And I hope to god no metaphysicians ever watch that show because I'm pretty certain they contradicted their own assumptions about time travel over and over again.

Second impression... loved it. The storyline was a little weak and, like in the first half, rushed. The big finale? Whether Sam could turn the cloak on in time. Hmm. Not quite comparable to blowing up a sun.

But there were lots of lovely little character moments. The obvious, of course, being the ship between O'Neill and Carter. I loved that the writers threw that scene in the audience's faces screaming: "Look! Look, there are literally fireworks!" and then just took it all away. I sit on the fence in ship (it doesn't bother me which way it goes) but that was just... funny. Loved the idea that alternate O'Neill thought Daniel was gay. Loved them fishing (again!). Loved the shot of SG-1 back in Apophis' prison cell, deja-vu to the pilot.

Didn't like... them killing Kawalsky. Again! You b*stards! Also didn't think alt. Carter's reaction to the death of Daniel and Kawalsky was much cop, and the same went for our Daniel's reaction to seeing the alt. versions of his dead friends.

And back to the insane science.... Stargate is all about the fun, and I'd rather that than them having to rely on proper science. And this ep was certainly a lot of fun.

Thor's Gunner
February 22nd, 2005, 12:09 PM
It wasnt much of a finale but it was a good episode, it was good to see Kawalski back again. Still i liked it.

Sy~
February 22nd, 2005, 12:09 PM
Really dissapointed in this ep. There wasnt enough action. It would have been much better if more was made on the actual uprising instead of spending 20 minutes on Chulack. All in all, a very bad, the worst ever season ender.

Instead of giving "Threads" a longer broadcasting time they should have at least tried harder with this ep.

On a plus side we have season 9.

Sy~

Prometheus_Pilot
February 22nd, 2005, 12:20 PM
I have literally just finished watching Moebius part2, i thought it was great with twists all over the place. Great ending to the series, and the final line was definatly the best, a classic stargate moment.

Whistler
February 22nd, 2005, 12:22 PM
A really fun episode, much better than Threads, and it's great how Sam admitted she was attracted to Daniel :D :p , Though the S/Jers don't get let down when Sam says to Jack that she just needed to get to know him better, theres a kindof James Bond moment with them refusing to get out of Gateship 1.

There were some great quotes, and (Alt.) Kewalsky and Daniel died again. The forest battle scene had some amazing explosions, as did the Gateship/Deathglider battle. The fishing scene was funny, with Jack having fish in his pond :D lol.

Things I'm wondering about are what Jack meant when he said to Carter in the SGC: "You've got some packing to do.", maybe she's going on the Daedalus? And when the Puddle Jumper dialed, why did it dial?! why did it spin, why did they have to do the entire whir, chevron locked, whir chevron locked thing?! The Jumper DHDs are meant to be DHDs, not the whole friggin' Dialing Computer. :eek: :D

McKay: "What? It's a Gateship, it's a ship, that goes through the Gate. Well I thought it was stylish" (or words to that effect, to General Hammond) :rolleyes:

blufeenix
February 22nd, 2005, 12:29 PM
Good ep I enjoyed it alot but I would have like to have seen the rebllion

Dan1500
February 22nd, 2005, 12:33 PM
Hhmmmm....I thought this was a good episode, it was quite fun, but I had psyched myself up for an amazing season ender and it didn't quite deliver. Sure there were a few moments that had me excited (OMG! SAM AND JACK ARE KISSING FINALLY!!!!) but considering that this could have been RDA's last episode as a regular cast member they could have made it a little more dramatic. Maybe they could have switched this with reckoning...but then again not everything in threads would have been explained and this wouldn't have had a proper back story and...oh i don't know. I did enjoy this but I mean come on, last season there was a huge dog fight between us and anubis' ships and the season before that the pyramid on abydos and the entire population was wiped out! Thats a little more eventful than what happened here.
Wow I've really moaned a bit here :-s oops...
Anyway...can't wait for next season, wonder how Ben Browder will cope with the legacy thats already in place???

michelleb
February 22nd, 2005, 12:41 PM
It wasn't really as complicated as I had been led to believe, I had no trouble figuring out the different time strands.

enjoyed daniel being a gou'ald all along..but could have been a gou'ald a bit longer (being a fan of evil daniel). but fantastic twist that i didn't see coming.

nice dramatic moments, but it all felt a bit rushed and shallow. i did prefer reckoning.

sam and jack..ok, AU sam and jack kissed, but all the shippers looked for was one kiss between our sam and jack. just one, maybe in the lab? AU sam and jack was nice, but still a brush off. shippers not happy.

i felt a bit cheated that it was all different bits of the team, and beginning teal'c again..i would have preferred a story with all the team of the present day. (and janet, if we're bringing back people)

witty script, that made me laugh, and gave me a few 'oh my god they killed <insert name here>' moments, which is always good.

final thought...enjoyed it, but reckoning was deeper and more dramatic. and there shoudl have been one real sam and jack kiss. that whole storyline is still as much in the air as it has ever been

eb01
February 22nd, 2005, 12:43 PM
I really enjoyed this episode. Not your typical end of season ep but it was great! I loved the alternate versions of SG1, very amusing! And the last scene in the ship... loved it!! :) The 'fireworks' were a nice touch. Gutted thats the end though. Bring on season9!

JackDaniels
February 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM
Oh so much to say, and a synopsis already written.

I really enjoyed the first part of the episode. I was glad that Daniel and Sam got on the team because of Jack, and also liked the Gateship thing (not only becuase it was McKay's thing in Atlantis, and it was a good reminder about why they were doing all of this in the first place, but because Daniel agreed with him about the name!)

It was nice to finally see the Teal'c part of the tape, I was getting curious! The way he spoke was very verbal for him and it was nice to hear him so happy about what had happened over the last 8 years - it showed us that Teal'c had finally achieved what he had defected for, and if this had been the end, I would have been happy in this knowledge.

I liked that they had to kill alternate Daniel because he was a Goa'uld, it was a nice twist, though I guessed something like that was coming since it was unlikely they would do a Replicarter thing and have two Daniel's in one shot, but hey. It was also a little annoying that they had to kill off Kawalsky (who I thought might be a Lieutenant Colonel at least with another 8 years of service).

Also had to mention Jack's little comment on not liking guns - very true and unfortunately still his reason for leaving the military. I liked Jack in this episode more so than the last one, though I have to say he looked really good, really well rested and with a good haircut (very shallow I know). I thought they would have given him more action though considering he may not be back in the action again. Nice to see he had priorities on the mission!

I also have to say that I thought there would have been a little more action in this part, seeing as though the first part was very lacking in that respect. I'm not attacking it for this reason, but it would have been nice to have seen some of the rebellion, or at least them flying away with the stargate! To have seen a few Jaffa laying down their weapons because they were surrounded and then reverting back to the real timeline was a bit of a let down. I would also have been curious to have seen what happened with the real Daniel and alternate Sg-1 who remained in the past, as it was obvious Sam and Jack were getting it on and what would they have done. Also, in an ick factor, what would have happened if they'd had a kid in the past - wouldn't this have affected the future in some small way that they didn't know about?

And of course I have to mention the Sam/Jack thing in more detail. It was amazing how different she looked without them glasses, and she seemed to get more confident without them. I will admit I snorted when she said that she was more attracted to Daniel, but it was nice when they got together, and it gave some a little hope (though at the same time being annoying for doing this to us when it was an alternate timeline). However, apart from the niggling thought above, the other thing that got me was the sparks that shot out behind them when they kissed - a little too cheesy for me, though that she added on "I can fix that" mid kiss pulled it back.

I also liked that they looped it back to the end of threads, so they cut out the line where she said "There are no fish in this pond are there?" because she'd heard Jack say it on the tape. Though the CG fish was absolutely terrible!

All in all I liked the episode, and it was (as someone already said) a very different SG-1 finale to anything we've had before. The Reckoning gave us the action packed two parter that we've all come to know and love and got rid of many of the enemies that we'd become tired of. Moebius allowed us think about the last 8 years - about Teal'c's battle, about all the people they've helped and how far they've come. As the episode I progressed I couldn't help but wonder what happened to Abydos, about various other planets, the Tok'ra, the Asguard - so many would have been affected by Earth and the Stargate. Ohh look at me getting all philosophical. Its the kind of episode that made you wonder what's going to come next and with so many changes in season 9 I honestly can't wait (though a definitive answer to the Sam/Jack question i think would have been appreciated!)

I'm going to give this 8/10 for nostalgia factor, Sam/Jack and the fact that it left me with a smile on my face, a little more action would have got a 10.

DarkQuee1
February 22nd, 2005, 12:44 PM
This was a particularly pointless episode. And it was supposed to be the *series* ender! Not to mention being a 2-hour finale that had 5 minutes of "our" team.

And we don't appear to have "our" team back: the lake has fish. It's never had fish before (including in 2010 and The Curse). So, we didn't even get the original team or original timeline back. What was the point to that?


J.

hermajesty
February 22nd, 2005, 12:46 PM
I thought this episode was hilarious. Loved seeing Kawalsky again, and Rodney's "gateship 1". And 'geek Daniel' was very amusing - on the Goualds taking his glasses "Why would they do that?" Shame they killed Kawalsky off so quickly, and killed Daniel AGAIN. Twice in three episodes! What is it with that?

The scene with Jack and Sam in the puddlejumper was great - especially Sam saying she liked Daniel better. However i thought the second half of the episode was rushed - they should have filled in the plotline a bit more and made it a longer episode again - although perhaps that would be too long as its already a double ep. Also, i would have thought Daniel would be more emotional about seeing alternate versions of his dead friends returning.

Overall the plotline was not as good as some ideas that have been going around, but the script was brilliant. Great episode.

Whistler
February 22nd, 2005, 12:57 PM
This was a particularly pointless episode. And it was supposed to be the *series* ender! Not to mention being a 2-hour finale that had 5 minutes of "our" team.

And we don't appear to have "our" team back: the lake has fish. It's never had fish before (including in 2010 and The Curse). So, we didn't even get the original team or original timeline back. What was the point to that?

I think it would be virtually impossible for the timeline to be completely unaffected by the mess that happened, and it's lucky that it's quite this similar. Even in Back to the Future the timeline was never brought back exactly the same after it had been "fixed".

Also watch out for more Time Jumper action in Season 9, because, guess what, because we flashed back to Threads, we've still got it. :rolleyes: I agree with you that it may have been "pointless", but what it was designed for was to look back on the past 9 years (i'm including the movie events here) and see what a big effect the team had, and restoring it. :)

immhotep
February 22nd, 2005, 01:03 PM
loved the episode, a complete turnaround from pt 1.the whole ending part was fantastic, seeing the changes then seeing it back as it should be + fish and a ZPM!
now was it me or did they make a massive hint for siege spolers * youve got some packing to do!, meaning maybe daniel or carter will be abourd the deadalus!!!!!!*
omg i just cant wait for siege to see how all the eps i watched tonight
(moebius and the gift) play out in conjunction together.

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 01:04 PM
a possible explanation for the fish in the pond is that after seeing the tape Jack decided to buy some fish to put in the pond.

Madeleine
February 22nd, 2005, 01:07 PM
I really really liked it. If that sodding fish hadn't been in it then I would have REALLY REALLY liked it instead.

Madeleine
February 22nd, 2005, 01:10 PM
a possible explanation for the fish in the pond is that after seeing the tape Jack decided to buy some fish to put in the pond.

:: Grabs sshspooky and gives a huuuuge sloppy kiss ::

You've redeemed the entire episode for me! Hurrah for you! :D

Lunar
February 22nd, 2005, 01:13 PM
Hmm.
I thought this episode was very funny, but a little rushed. It didn't have the WOW factor I found LC to have, and I was a little disappointed considering it was potentially s9 Jack's last ever episode.
I loved Sam's line about the boyfriend, and her comments that she 'thinks things over too much' (or words to that effect!) to Jack.
Wonder how S9 is going to start? :)

samjack4ever
February 22nd, 2005, 01:13 PM
I have a question...

If the SG1 from the new time line went back in time would Daniel from the old time line still be there?

I mean how could he be when the Daniel from the new time line didn't go back in time in the first place...

Did that make sense? :S

hermajesty
February 22nd, 2005, 01:14 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the fish. I'm fairly sure it was a joke, just put in there to keep us on our toes - it would be far to complicated for the writers to have changed anything important about the series.

DIngChavez
February 22nd, 2005, 01:15 PM
It was waaaayyy to short, the whole story needed alot more scenes and at least 120mins instead of 80mins. Reckoning+Threads were better.

DarkQuee1
February 22nd, 2005, 01:17 PM
I

The scene with Jack and Sam in the puddlejumper was great - especially Sam saying she liked Daniel better.


Uh, that was Sam pulling Jack's leg. She didn't look even remotely interested in jumping Daniel's bones, did she? <<g>>


J.

DIngChavez
February 22nd, 2005, 01:20 PM
I have a question...

If the SG1 from the new time line went back in time would Daniel from the old time line still be there?

I mean how could he be when the Daniel from the new time line didn't go back in time in the first place...

Did that make sense? :S

It's the same with atlantis. The universe is overwritten instead of breaking off into a new universe. or something.........

shonac85
February 22nd, 2005, 01:22 PM
SPOILERS FOR MOEBIUS (Is this really needed if the thread is about the episode?)

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OH MY GOD!!! I loved this episode!!!!! That is what you call a twisty plot! Just a question, so the guys at the end were the ones from the alternate timeline then? slightly confused by that! But what else can I say about the epsiode, it was brilliant!
I loved geek Daniel and Sam! They were so funny. Just their mannerisms were brilliant and funny! Geeky Daniel I always liked, but to see geeky Sam was fun!
Now the best part, the Sam/Jack part! What can I say apart from OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is brilliant!!! I mean, you see the kiss, sparks flying and everything!!! And when Daniel said they could come out now it was safe and they stayed in to kiss, WOW!!! What every S/J shipper wanted to see!!! I mean, we did get Sam fishing! And we got to see it twice!
THERE'S FISH IN HIS POND!! I always knew it (just read 'Missed Opportunities' at Stargate Universe to see that!)
This was just the best episode! And it was so well concealed too! I hearly knew anything about the episode before it aired, which is unusual for Stargate. It made a brilliant change though as i loved not knowing what was happening!!! Made it so much better!
All A can say now is ROLL ON SEASON 9. What can they do now? especially with the Sam/Jack issue? I mean, if they were the alternate timeline people and remembered the kiss, what does that bring up next season? Is Jack going to retire (as we all know Jack might not be in it much. So does he retire to be with Sam?) Suppose we'll just ahve to wait. But it will be torture for us all!!
That epsiode certainly put a smile on my face for the rest of the week!! YAY!!

Anubis
February 22nd, 2005, 01:23 PM
Loved it, certainly made up for part one, mostly. ;)

I though the 'gateship' reference was great and the whole beginning scenes were good. SG1 being captured was a bit rushed .. infact the whole episode was, to make up for part one being so slow. ;)

Loved the little cloak scene, predictable, and then it failed - nice twist. :D Didn't expect Daniel to be a Goa'uld and though, Teal'c why did you do that kind of thing. ;) Brilliant, though.

Shippers - how BRILLIANT was that kiss in the puddlejumper (the one with the sparks) after all, there were THREE kisses. :D Shame one couldn't be real, though. :D Good to get rid of nerdy Sam. :P

Wasn't happy about the re-use of the final Threads scene, though. :( They could have reused it.

Here's something. It's still not the correct timeline as there are fish in Jack's pond. So it's not totally correct - but close enough. :)


Overall - not a brilliant episode, doesn't topple Lost City, but it made me happy and restored faith for S9 for me. ;) Hopefully!

DarkQuee1
February 22nd, 2005, 01:24 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about the fish. I'm fairly sure it was a joke, just put in there to keep us on our toes - it would be far to complicated for them to have changed anything important.

But they *did* change it, didn't they? "Our" team went back and changed the timeline. THe new team went back (and half of them stayed there and made lots of babies) and changed it again. Why do you assume it went back to exactly what was before instead of having differences? In the Stargate universe, apparently you can change history. Or, if not, your presence automatically creates a multiverse. If you set it up so that every action splits off another multiverse, then there's no way to ever get back to where you started: each change just adds more layers.

That's one of the prime reasons I think this finale was a bad idea. SG-1 as we knew it is over. No Jack, no Hammond, no Janet, reduced Sam (because AT wants to be with her baby), "new directions, new dangers, new enemy". Yet we didn't even end on--or get to wave goodbye to--the team we started with, but with a modified--however slightly--timeline and an AU team, however close they may be to our own.



J.

Whistler
February 22nd, 2005, 01:24 PM
I have a question...

If the SG1 from the new time line went back in time would Daniel from the old time line still be there?

I mean how could he be when the Daniel from the new time line didn't go back in time in the first place...

Did that make sense? :S

As similar as Daniel may have been to the Daniel stuck back there, he comes from a different timeline, so probably lived out his life in the past. :eek: Freeky ehe? We'll be watching the adventures of a different Daniel!!! :eek: Infact, an entirely different SG-1, the SG-1 we have been watching for the past eight or so years is either dead or was stuck in the past.

And I don't think Sam was kidding when she said she found Daniel attractive, she just fell for Jack in the end. :rolleyes: Simple as that. :)

upyourego
February 22nd, 2005, 01:26 PM
It had the best of what Stargate is about, a marriage of good subtle (and sometimes not so sublte) comedy to great sci-fi.

The episode was really good (a little baffling at the end - almost like they rushed the ending) and it was great to see Jack and Sam get it together (even if it was the 'alternative' jack and sam) in the jumper.

JackDaniels
February 22nd, 2005, 01:28 PM
I have a question...

If the SG1 from the new time line went back in time would Daniel from the old time line still be there?

I mean how could he be when the Daniel from the new time line didn't go back in time in the first place...

Did that make sense? :S

Old Daniel was still there becuase the new SG-1 went back 5 years later. This meant that the time the original Sg-1 had gone back to had passed, they had been part of a minor rebellion which had failed and the old Daniel was still living there becuase this time had not changed. The timeline was altered after the second rebellion and Ra taking the gate, anything before this was still the same.

In answer to someone else's question, Daniel, in seeing the second team realised they'd changed things. It had been a couple of years since the original team had come so I guess he'd probably dealt with their deaths and was just glad they were alive in some sense.

The only thing, however, that bugs me about the timeline thing however, is that after being so wary of stepping on a bug in the first episode that Sam allowed the team in any way to become involved in the rebellion - even the second Sam seemed surprised at that.

The other thing that's been mentioned, about the fish. It could work, with Jack not acknowledging that there were fish in his pond in case Sam started worrying about the timeline, but to me the presence of a fish cannot be explained. Jack said 'close enough' so he knew there were fish and I don't think he had just gone and put one in there. V. Confusing!

Daz
February 22nd, 2005, 01:36 PM
Ah, he put the fish there...thank you, you saved me alot of anger at changes.

Anyway, I really want to know what happned to those that were left in the past (ie. normal daniel, alt teal'c, carter, jack)...I do hate that they changed things. Hopefully they never went back or summut, or they somehow died in the rebellion and things were unchanged...

I really hate it how they changed things so the 'heros' set up the rebellion and all. Did the egyptians never revolt on their own? Why did we have to change things, oh why? Why couldn't the alt team arrive just as the other ship arrived in the past, so as soon as they got there (the normal sg-1) they are met by the alt sg-1 and don't mess stuff up...(shoots himself at stupidness of changing the past)...

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 01:44 PM
But they *did* change it, didn't they? "Our" team went back and changed the timeline. THe new team went back (and half of them stayed there and made lots of babies) and changed it again. Why do you assume it went back to exactly what was before instead of having differences? In the Stargate universe, apparently you can change history. Or, if not, your presence automatically creates a multiverse. If you set it up so that every action splits off another multiverse, then there's no way to ever get back to where you started: each change just adds more layers.

That's one of the prime reasons I think this finale was a bad idea. SG-1 as we knew it is over. No Jack, no Hammond, no Janet, reduced Sam (because AT wants to be with her baby), "new directions, new dangers, new enemy". Yet we didn't even end on--or get to wave goodbye to--the team we started with, but with a modified--however slightly--timeline and an AU team, however close they may be to our own.


i think certain assumptions are being made about what happened and how it would have changed time. Let's look at this sensibly:

- the original team have the original timeline. there was a rebellion and Ra left and the stargate was buried
- they go back and their presence changes pivitol events so that the stargate is taken
- the new team has a changed future because of this. they go back and make sure history happens how it should have and the stargate is buried.
- the new team and daniel may have either died in the fight or after the rebellion they lived out the rest of their lives in seclusion. they would definately not have had children.

so, what is the new timeline:

- the rebellion happened however it happened due to the ventures in to the past
- 7 people from the future lived in the past for varying periods of time


now, some people will jump up and saw the timeline has been altered, and they would be part correct, as the last two weeks have been changed, as there is a ZPM and a tape now. however, nothing else has changed as the pivitol events of history have stayed the same.

i am a strong believer in the principal that if time travel is possible then you couldn't change the future because then you wouldn't be able to travel to the past, so as the past has already happened you can't change it you can only live it. what happens in Moebius is that time is altered then altered back so that instead of time being altered that past is actually what always happened. the people in the past had buried a tape and ZPM so that while they kept their history the same they altered their future. you could argue this is now an alternate timeline where sg-1 didn't return to the past, and that there is a timeline where sg-1 return to the past and never return and one where earth ends up being detsroyed by Apophis, however i rather like to think that things have been restored to how they should always have been and we now know the real reason the people of Egypt not only rebelled against Ra, but were able to drive him away.

Sha're
February 22nd, 2005, 01:54 PM
As similar as Daniel may have been to the Daniel stuck back there, he comes from a different timeline, so probably lived out his life in the past. :eek: Freeky ehe? We'll be watching the adventures of a different Daniel!!! :eek: Infact, an entirely different SG-1, the SG-1 we have been watching for the past eight or so years is either dead or was stuck in the past.

And I don't think Sam was kidding when she said she found Daniel attractive, she just fell for Jack in the end. :rolleyes: Simple as that. :)

Excuse me while my head explodes :eek: Its true Whistler... freaky indeed.
However, ignoring what was IMO an ending that does not do this episode justice, I enjoyed it.

Apophis - hooray, but he was totally lack lustre and looked awful (yes that IS important!) I'd would have liked him to have a bigger part. I liked nerdy Sam and the kiss in the puddle jumper - whoops sorry Rodney - Gateship, was lovely, awww. Kawalski, good to see him again.
Not enough action overall, but funny n parts. And Daniel died again :eek: Hey I didn't see that coming :rolleyes: But I will admit I didn't see the bit about him being a Goa'uld coming :p
So I thought it was a decent episode but will have to watch it again.

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 01:54 PM
The only thing, however, that bugs me about the timeline thing however, is that after being so wary of stepping on a bug in the first episode that Sam allowed the team in any way to become involved in the rebellion - even the second Sam seemed surprised at that.

The other thing that's been mentioned, about the fish. It could work, with Jack not acknowledging that there were fish in his pond in case Sam started worrying about the timeline, but to me the presence of a fish cannot be explained. Jack said 'close enough' so he knew there were fish and I don't think he had just gone and put one in there. V. Confusing!
I don't think Sam could stop Jack and Teal'c!

and as far as the fish thing goes, to me it makes sense. Jack says close enough with a little smile on his face. To me he's trying to keep face in front of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c. In Threads he admits the truth as it's plainly obvious. However after watching the tape he thinks to himself "I don't want to seem stupid with no fish in my pond. i can do better then that" so he gets some fish and puts them in his pond, hence the smile and the line. he's kind of proud that he got fish put in his pond.

Muffin
February 22nd, 2005, 01:58 PM
Loved it!
it was just a light, fun episode..and of course LOVED the sam/jackness :D who couldn't?!..gotta admit all the sparks made me grin so much..it was just sooo stargate to take a cliche like that and use it..love it!

some of the character moments too...just great..i'll admit..probably not as amazing as TLC...but its in a completely different catogary..you can't really compare them..i still loved it..and whats funny it-at the end of threads i thought...omg wow-that could be such a perfect ending..but that ending made me want MORE..probably because there was some resolution but with an ALTERNATE sam/jack..coz thats what they were..still great of course...but i have NOOOO idea what resolution i can get without RDA/jack in it..i honestly can't imagine it without him in it at ALL..my brain just can't imagine it...i HOPE its good..only time will tell! :eek:

moebius gets a definate *thumbs up* for me! esp part 2! again...maybe it wasn't as actiony as TLC..but esp in the second part...i loved the characters and the way they interacted!..which is what i love about stargate (and why i can't imagine it without jack) :rolleyes:

xox

Whistler
February 22nd, 2005, 02:01 PM
i think certain assumptions are being made about what happened and how it would have changed time. Let's look at this sensibly:

- the original team have the original timeline. there was a rebellion and Ra left and the stargate was buried
- they go back and their presence changes pivitol events so that the stargate is taken
- the new team has a changed future because of this. they go back and make sure history happens how it should have and the stargate is buried.
- the new team and daniel may have either died in the fight or after the rebellion they lived out the rest of their lives in seclusion. they would definately not have had children.

so, what is the new timeline:

- the rebellion happened however it happened due to the ventures in to the past
- 7 people from the future lived in the past for varying periods of time


now, some people will jump up and saw the timeline has been altered, and they would be part correct, as the last two weeks have been changed, as there is a ZPM and a tape now. however, nothing else has changed as the pivitol events of history have stayed the same.

i am a strong believer in the principal that if time travel is possible then you couldn't change the future because then you wouldn't be able to travel to the past, so as the past has already happened you can't change it you can only live it. what happens in Moebius is that time is altered then altered back so that instead of time being altered that past is actually what always happened. the people in the past had buried a tape and ZPM so that while they kept their history the same they altered their future. you could argue this is now an alternate timeline where sg-1 didn't return to the past, and that there is a timeline where sg-1 return to the past and never return and one where earth ends up being detsroyed by Apophis, however i rather like to think that things have been restored to how they should always have been and we now know the real reason the people of Egypt not only rebelled against Ra, but were able to drive him away.

Ah but that's not the way that time travel works in Stargate, the uprising had occured because the Egyptians revolted originally. This is what had always been the past before Moebius.

After the team was trapped in the past, SG-1, unable to watch Ra enslave these Egyptians, and not able to wait for the Uprising to form normally, took it apon themselves, causing the ripple, killing the original Jack, Sam and Teal'c.

The Second team (The Alternate Mucked Up Timeline team) went back and told Daniel, the only remaining survivor of the original SG-1, about the failure, and brought Alternate Teal'c with them. They changed the timeline by conducting a new uprising which was more successful.

The third team, (a new SG-1 extremely similar to the old one), now exists in their place and these will be the ones that we will see for this and the rest of the series. The SG-1 who we've been watching for the past eight years, all would have died in the past. But then again, whats to say we wont find Original Daniel is stasis on some other planet in Season 9? :D

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 02:12 PM
Ah but that's not the way that time travel works in Stargate, the uprising had occured because the Egyptians revolted originally. This is what had always been the past before Moebius.

After the team was trapped in the past, SG-1, unable to watch Ra enslave these Egyptians, and not able to wait for the Uprising to form normally, took it apon themselves, causing the ripple, killing the original Jack, Sam and Teal'c.

The Second team (The Alternate Mucked Up Timeline team) went back and told Daniel, the only remaining survivor of the original SG-1, about the failure, and brought Alternate Teal'c with them. They changed the timeline by conducting a new uprising which was more successful.

The third team, (a new SG-1 extremely similar to the old one), now exists in their place and these will be the ones that we will see for this and the rest of the series. The SG-1 who we've been watching for the past eight years, all would have died in the past. But then again, whats to say we wont find Original Daniel is stasis on some other planet in Season 9? :D

that's where you're wrong though. your first line "Ah but that's not the way that time travel works in Stargate" is totally forgetting 1969, where General Hammond knew to give them the note as that had already happened in the past.

Madeleine
February 22nd, 2005, 02:16 PM
The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

In the first loop they got something wrong, very slightly wrong, and it altered the timeline to a small degree - probably nothing changed between when Ra left with the gate and when the Langfords went digging in the 1920s. And then fromm the '20s there woul dhave been small changes rippling from everyone who 'should have been' involved with the Big Round Weird Artifact, until the '90s when the SGC 'should have' happenned.

All that came from just one event - the invisible PJ being spotted.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Wass
February 22nd, 2005, 02:18 PM
Not a bad episode I would give it 5/6 out of 10 for some reason it I expected more from this episodes but it was much better then part 1. I don’t like time travel episodes because they mess every thing up just like this episode has.

TPTB said once you see this you will understand why we are doing season 9 to be honest I don’t. I thought it was poor season final and Threads should have been the season final it would have been a lot better.

Dana_Jeanne
February 22nd, 2005, 02:22 PM
Anyway, I really want to know what happned to those that were left in the past (ie. normal daniel, alt teal'c, carter, jack)...I do hate that they changed things. Hopefully they never went back or summut, or they somehow died in the rebellion and things were unchanged...

As far as I'm concerned as soon as the altSG-1 went back to Egypt and fixed whatever, then the time-line went back to the way it was supposed to be with our orginal team fishing at the pond.

Dana Jeanne

Dana_Jeanne
February 22nd, 2005, 02:23 PM
I like your story, Madelaine and I'll stick to it, too.

Dana Jeanne

Jillybean
February 22nd, 2005, 02:24 PM
Yeah, it did seem a bit rushed.

And although, in my mind, when Sam said
"I kinda like Daniel"
Jack said:
"I kinda like Daniel too!"

I actually found, for the first time, that I liked Sam and Jack together. They handled it really well. I'm so glad, after Threads I was in despair about the series, but Moebius Parts 1 & 2 pulled it back from the brink

I am sad about losing Jacob, but again, that's part of what SG-1's all about. I'll miss Jack next season, but I'm really hoping BB's character will shake up the dynamic. I loved seeing the fish in the pond at the end of Moebius, very cute.

So - here's to a successful season nine!

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 02:25 PM
The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

In the first loop they got something wrong, very slightly wrong, and it altered the timeline to a small degree - probably nothing changed between when Ra left with the gate and when the Langfords went digging in the 1920s. And then fromm the '20s there woul dhave been small changes rippling from everyone who 'should have been' involved with the Big Round Weird Artifact, until the '90s when the SGC 'should have' happenned.

All that came from just one event - the invisible PJ being spotted.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

that's not a bad way to think about it. time travel episodes bring such confusion but if Star Trek can go back in time and be involved in the past but not change it then so can Stargate!

i think the best way we can look at it is it was an exciting episode that gave us some great alternate reality and guest star moments as well as explained how the rebellion in Egypt happened, and that the timeline was only changed from the dig where they discovered the camera and ZPM onwards. if we look at it in that light, even if some of the elements don't make total sense, i'm sure we can all be happy.

Fox McCloud
February 22nd, 2005, 02:30 PM
Perhaps daniel had something to do with the Coverstones for the gate?

Since he was the only one who could translate them.

Ajayrious
February 22nd, 2005, 02:33 PM
I really enjoyed this episode, however MORE APOPHIS , MORE RA , MORE REBELLION, MORE ACTION LESS KILLING KAWALSKY,

this is the fourth time this season ive been disapointed with an episode because it promised action and delivered very little, and that doesnt count all the ****ty little episodes at the start of the season which had no action whatsoever.

sshspooky
February 22nd, 2005, 02:36 PM
Perhaps daniel had something to do with the Coverstones for the gate?

Since he was the only one who could translate them.
Interesting theory since it would explain why the gate address was for Abydos, since there has never seemed any particularly special connection with that place.

Fox McCloud
February 22nd, 2005, 02:48 PM
Relax people. They had to scale back things because of two shows.

Think about the Crew and Cast.

And not about your selfish selves.

Also, try this on for size:

Rebellion wins, they take over stargate.
Ra leaves with lots of slaves
Ra goes to Abydos and plonks them in with the rest of his slaves there that he brought previously through stargate over the years.
Slaves write on walls about how there was a rebellion on earth and how ra was sending slaves to abydos.
Daniel knows where Ra has gone nad makes Coverstone, knowing it will be him who translates it.
Daniel also knows that Abydos is important (Cartouche, Sha'Re, Dead Ra)

5000 years later, Gate is uncovered.
Then happens SG1.

If there had been photographic evidence of rebellion rather than pictographs and hieroglyphs then Daniel wouldve seen himself and gone "WTF!!!11one"
But obviously, they couldnt.

Now the pardox like things, i.e them not having to go back in time because theyve already been back in time (yet if they dont, how do they etc?) is all attributed to the Moebius.

Now, quench on this. How about Jack and Sam hump like rabbits and spread the Ancient gene around teh w0rld.

Would account for Shepard having Jack like qualities :D

Keffler
February 22nd, 2005, 02:59 PM
I really liked it.

The way the connected the start with the finish of Jacks major role on SG-1 (the show not the team). Being on Chulak, convincing Tealc he worships false gods, death of kawalski. Sorta a way of saying goodbye jack i thought.

The fish in the pond, i was like "OMG theres fish in his pond" espaically after they made such a point of saying there was no fish in his pond.

These last five eopisode have been really good i feel, they have all been about arcs rather than stand alone eps, finshing off a lot and yet opening up a lot more. These must be the best 5 eps ive seen of Stargate in a while, they allow for Jacks closer for all hes been fighting for and against, enough for him to move on and leave Sg-1 and the SGC e.g. the jaffa battle for freedom, the destruction of the Goa'uld(or near destruction :p ), getting enough power to dial Atlantis and get there by ship and his battle agains this feelings for Sam. They showed us what we have all been fighting for for the last 8 years, Tealc's battle for freedom, sam and jacks battle witht here feelings (sort of repeated myself there didnt I)

AT Sam and Daniel were hilarious, there little very non military comments. And sams shiver about the possibilty of having a boyfriend nevermind a fiance (no longer). I would have liked to see Daniel a bit more evil, maybe getting a few more shots off etc.

Did anyone notice they had a different briefing table in part 1? I miss the old table with the black strip, im so gonna have that as a dinig table when i can get hold of one.

Jacks comment "You better start packing may have been for the fishing trip but im guessing its to open up Sams absence in Season 9 due to the fact of the birth of her baby.

The little bits of change like the fish in the pond open it up for TPTB to bring in any enemy they want because we may not have met them previously or they may have been defeated previously but they arent now the timeline has been changed.

Cant wait for Seaon 9 and the new enemy.

UlsterBob
February 22nd, 2005, 03:00 PM
I have to say I was pretty disappointed with Moebius. Too complicated and more than a little dull.

It would have worked much better to have seen what happened to SG1 after the puddlejumper was discovered by the Ja'fa, and then see them start the uprising and escape. Especially more use of Ra and the Horus guards. What was the point in resurrecting these elements from the movie if you're not going to use them?

So there's now three puddlejumpers, three SG1 teams.... errr... doesn't bear thinking about.... :S

Get Carter
February 22nd, 2005, 03:12 PM
I had written a whole long post about the time travel thing but it became convoluted and scary.

A couple of ideas.

Either the time line at the end of Moebius is different but incredibly similar looking to what we know. With only those plot points mentioned in the tape (apart from the fish) having definitely happened. in which case anything else is up for grabs. Basically Janet Frasier could be alive. As could Jacob. Although I feel trying to explain that sort of thing would be even more comlicated.

Or

Everything we have ever seen is based on the final Moebius SG-1 with only the fishing scene in threads being wrong, wrong because of another as yet to be seen time travelling incident. Possibly caused by the trip in the daedelus to atlantis, a trip which apparently Carter will be making.

This said, I feel like Homer staring at the word GABBO in the paper - I've not been given enough information to make sense of it. Yet....

Personally I just enjoyed it, enjoyed Jack and his cap, enjoyed Carter pondering if her future self had a boyfriend (although surely in relative terms it should be alternate self?), enjoyed the implied bond-like sex, enoyed GateShip 1, enjoyed the explanation that said GateShip fit inside the Gate not the other way around, enjoyed Daniel's blunt acceptance of his alternate death, I just enjoyed it.

Keffler
February 22nd, 2005, 03:13 PM
So there's now three puddlejumpers, three SG1 teams.... errr... doesn't bear thinking about.... :S

Arent they all the same Puddle jumper?

Keffler
February 22nd, 2005, 03:14 PM
Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


I agree. I think we are all forgeting Moebius is a trip that has been turned 180o and if traveled would mean traveling both sideas and returning to your start point.

bobamaul1980
February 22nd, 2005, 03:17 PM
very good enjoyed all the what may of been stuf but felt a bit let down

glad it is not the last stargate ever otherwise i would of been v dissapointed

gatergirl
February 22nd, 2005, 03:20 PM
Heyo, brand new here, but thought I'd pipe up about the last episode of the season.

Honestly, it didn't really do much for me. I really enjoyed the first part, loved where it was going, but this was sort of a let down. Especially since the ending seemed so...easy.

It was the type of time-travel logic that seemed almost silly, and it was also kind of superficial. One Daniel gone, oh here's another one. Don't have old Teal'c, we got a new one, acts pretty much the same, nothin to worry about.

I'm not big on the whole Jack/Sam thing, so that did nothing for me. Actually, it kind of irritated me, if only because they'd just had that conversation about Sam and Daniel, and that I thought was awesome. It would have been great if they had kept something like that, which was so unexpected, instead of giving us the same 'ol JackNSam, especially since Alt!Sam and Alt!Daniel had such obvious and great chemistry.

It was essentially an alternate universe, so it didn't bother me too much, but come on, there's gotta be at least ONE universe where they aren't getting it on. Just for some variety (and don't give me that 'they're meant to love no matter what universe' stuff, cause that's too much sap for a show that at least TRIES to keep things scientific).

On the whole though, I liked the first part, and some of the second, so I don't consider it a complete loss. If you just shut off your brain it's not too bad :)

Ajayrious
February 22nd, 2005, 03:24 PM
Either the time line at the end of Moebius is different but incredibly similar looking to what we know. With only those plot points mentioned in the tape (apart from the fish) having definitely happened. in which case anything else is up for grabs. Basically Janet Frasier could be alive. As could Jacob. Although I feel trying to explain that sort of thing would be even more comlicated.


I really hate it when shows do that, please god dont let stargate become another one of them

WormholeAlien
February 22nd, 2005, 03:29 PM
Writers [after finishing off ep18]: Yeah! all bad guys are dead! we're ready for season 9! :D

Producers: whah!? :confused: there's two more episodes to go!

Writers: :S I thought you guys said we're doing two less episodes this season?

Producers: Yes, goddamit! we normally do 22, now we're doing 20! :mad:

Writer 1: 22? :eek:

Writer 1: Dude... how many episodes did you write?

Writer 2: Umm... dunno. Let me count my pay cheques....

Writer 1: Well I did the one with the replicators, then there was the one with the Jaffa...

Producers: :mad: Shut-up! Just Stop! we've done 18, we need 20!

Writer 1: Jees... you don't need to yell. :rolleyes: Let him come back with the pay cheques and we'll count how many we've done. Just relax, have some water. ;)

Producers: :mad: :confused:

Writer 2: um... I think we might need to do a couple'o more... :) I know! You know those ideas we had for a few episodes for bringing back ra? lets do those. :cool:

Writer 1: The whole arc in two eps? :S

Writer 2: Yeah! why not! :D

Writer 1: oh well, it's something. :rolleyes:


... And thats how we ended up with Moebius

:p

bobamaul1980
February 22nd, 2005, 03:32 PM
overall though leaves you not really knowing what to expect next season

i mean are the Gouald gone for good or is it just licence to change anything they want next season and blame it on thetime line changes


Causality---- i couldn't understand it in Quantum Mechanics 101

WormholeAlien
February 22nd, 2005, 03:33 PM
Personally I thought these two episodes were pretty good, especially in comparison with the rest of the season. But they weren't really a good season ender.

h22chen
February 22nd, 2005, 03:51 PM
hm... the Aschen or Tollen might be back and in a very different way! (as conquerors)

Matt G
February 22nd, 2005, 04:30 PM
Hmmm...

1. Could see alt Daniel becoming a Goa'uld easily but didn't expect him to get killed off so quick.

2. Too much time in the Alt timeline for my liking. TPTB got the pacing wrong this time out. :(

3. You know my feelings on ship!

4. There were various small nods to the movie in here - cool!

5. They copied the scene from Threads! WTF?

Overall, good but not great and I was looking for great - particularly as S9 could be a liability! :(

CrackedButter
February 22nd, 2005, 04:36 PM
A far simpler course of action would be for the surviving AU SG1 to go back in time at the exact point when the normal SG1 team arrives. They would then tell the original team to go back where they came and the AU SG1 would steal the ZPM and bury it with the camera with the aid of the first original Daniel Jackson for the original SG1 to watch over in the future. :p

(Notice something there) ;)

Btw, the episode was rushed and should of been a 3 parter.

If there are timeline changes how would any body know? ;)


I cannot wait to confuse my dad over this time travelling issue.

keppiezbt
February 22nd, 2005, 04:48 PM
so I am confused.....after rebellion, when they flim back to SGC, is the orignal 4 non-alt time line sg1? watching a video of themselves they made but wont ever make? what happened to the zpm

keppiezbt
February 22nd, 2005, 04:51 PM
I have a question...

If the SG1 from the new time line went back in time would Daniel from the old time line still be there?

I mean how could he be when the Daniel from the new time line didn't go back in time in the first place...

Did that make sense? :S

temporal paradoxes at there finest.

sgafansam
February 22nd, 2005, 05:10 PM
so long story short//////////the sg1 we have at the end.......are they the "real" sg1? Or are they the AU versions of them ?

I couldnt tell from the various synopsis.......either that or my add is acting up again

Albion
February 22nd, 2005, 05:18 PM
Well, I'm not going to say much about this one - apart from the fact that I absolutely adored each and every single minute of it. I just couldn't do it justice. Practically every line and moment was perfect for me. I'd be here for weeks quoting stuff that had me laughing out loud or cheering.

The alternate SG1 were a complete laugh riot from start to finish. Almost broke a rib at A-Sam's "I wonder if my future self has a boyfriend." And the whole 'you're hot' scene had me literally crying with laughter. Especially the "I'm attracted to Daniel."

I loved all of the little echoes back to eight seasons and the movie. Like A-Jack asking Daniel if he was sure he had the return address before they went through the gate. LOL.

And, of course, at last, finally, a Sam and Jack got it on. Not our Sam and Jack, but, hey, who cares? Woohoo! Absolutely wonderful. Every second of it. Beautiful. And very clever of TPTB. I loved the expression on A-Jack's face when Sam was in full babble mode and he just obviously thought 'what the hell' and pounced on her. LOL.

And then we had that revised tag at the end, echoing that in Threads.

Boil it down to basics? This worked for me as a finale to a season and if it had been the last we'd ever seen of Stargate I'd have been a very happy bunny. It hit all the right notes for this fan of team and S/J shipper. <happy sigh>

Wonderful. Terrific. Hilarious. Brilliant.

In short:

Perfect.

Albion :)

PS - Roll on S9... ;)

lsd
February 22nd, 2005, 05:32 PM
ummm about the fish did u guys SEE the fish??¿¿¿¿ because I cant tell (my t.v. has bad quality) because if u didn’t see the fish jack could just be kidding to try to cover up the fact that there are no fish (I like it when there are no fish hehe~~)

Albion
February 22nd, 2005, 05:34 PM
Read some of the other posts now. Provoking a few more random thoughts:


Things I'm wondering about are what Jack meant when he said to Carter in the SGC: "You've got some packing to do.", maybe she's going on the Daedalus?

I presume he meant packing to go to the cabin and fish. That's what makes most sense to me, considering that the scene immediately after is of them fishing at the cabin. :D


but all the shippers looked for was one kiss between our sam and jack. just one, maybe in the lab? AU sam and jack was nice, but still a brush off. shippers not happy

Please – if this is your opinion as a shipper that's fine, but don't presume to speak for all of us! This shipper was very, very happy. ;) I've never wanted a resolution to our Sam and Jack's relationship on screen, so I never looked for that kiss between them either. Using the alternates instead was the perfect solution for this shipper. Gave me some very cute S/J moments, while not spoiling the real relationship for me.


a possible explanation for the fish in the pond is that after seeing the tape Jack decided to buy some fish to put in the pond.

Whether there are fish in the pond or not doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me – I'm with Jack, 'Close enough' and I never got the impression that huge, major changes had been made to our timeline – quite the opposite. I think Jack's 'close enough' speaks to the fact that there hasn't been. Seem logical enough to me anyway. It's just not a big issue for me. But I like this explanation anyway. Sounds like something Jack would do. LOL.

Not even going to get into the whole time paradoxes thing. I learned long ago that I lose the will to live shortly thereafter with this kind of plot, so I'm perfectly happy to just go with the flow and enjoy the episode as it unfurls without thinking too much. <g> I personally don't think there's any doubt that the team at the end are our SG1, the clues are there for me, so I'm happy enough to presume that all's well that end's well and we ended up more or less where we began.

And I've just been reminded by another poster of another moment that had me ROTFLing. Daniel's bemused, "What's with the....?" as he mimics Jack's silent hand commands. :p


Albion :) (who should go to bed now, seeing as it's 2.30 am, but has the urge to go watch this again...)

DarkQuee1
February 22nd, 2005, 06:24 PM
The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

In the first loop they got something wrong, very slightly wrong, and it altered the timeline to a small degree - probably nothing changed between when Ra left with the gate and when the Langfords went digging in the 1920s. And then fromm the '20s there woul dhave been small changes rippling from everyone who 'should have been' involved with the Big Round Weird Artifact, until the '90s when the SGC 'should have' happenned.

All that came from just one event - the invisible PJ being spotted.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


I might agree with you, since I tend to subscribe to the "you can't change history" approach to time travel (since your events are already accounted for), except that that doesn't seem to be the time travel approach favored by the people writing the show. They are taking the approach that you can change history. MOre, they seem to be taking the approach that you create multiverses by these actions--*and* the multiverse created remains "alive" even if you take steps to try to reverse things. That's why the Weir who went back 10,000 years didn't disappear the moment that the future changed, that is, Atlantis rose and no one drowned. If she didn't exist in a separate and now-fully existing timeline/multiverse, then the rising of Atlantis would have meant that she never went back in time and that would have caused the elderly Weir to not exist.

Since that is the case, there is no way to ever arrive back at exactly the same timeline (possibly if the AU team had gone back and *stopped* the original SG-1 from ever goiing back in the first place, but that's about it). Once SG-1 went back in time, you now have their effects on the multiverse, plus the effects of the AU team, which didn't exist until the time travel, plus the effects of "our" Daniel, who stays in the past. All of this has caused yet another timeline/multiverse to split off. It looks like ours? Luck of the draw.

And while it may look like ours, we only saw three minutes of the particular reality they are in at the end, so we don't really know if there are other differences than simply that Jack's lake now has fish (and, no, he *didn't* go out and buy any).

After all, it *can't* be "our" team going on to a new future, when "our" Daniel, like Sam Beckett, never came home! He stayed, lived out the rest of his life and died 5,000 years ago. (BTW, did it strike you that Daniel didn't seem particularly upset about the loss of his teammates and friends?)


I can't help but feel that it is more than a little slap at the show's fans: we got involved in the characters we've known for 8 years, and now they're gone. Just like that, with no goodbye and with no grand exit--it happens offscreen, after all. Why should we invest anything in the characters next season?


J.

Madeleine
February 22nd, 2005, 07:58 PM
After all, it *can't* be "our" team going on to a new future, when "our" Daniel, like Sam Beckett, never came home! He stayed, lived out the rest of his life and died 5,000 years ago. (BTW, did it strike you that Daniel didn't seem particularly upset about the loss of his teammates and friends?)

I think it was 'our' team, exactly the same but with just two weeks missing. I really do think that everything happenned the same up to the point at which they found the ZPM in the final loop, and they still went fishing, so to me it's them. Although the people who went into the past are also and equally 'our' team. (I expect Daniel did all his Getting Upset at the loss of his team-mates a couple of years earlier, when they first died.)



I can't help but feel that it is more than a little slap at the show's fans: we got involved in the characters we've known for 8 years, and now they're gone. Just like that, with no goodbye and with no grand exit--it happens offscreen, after all. Why should we invest anything in the characters next season?

I totally understand what you mean, which is why the fish so bothered me at first. I freely admit to 'fanwanking' over this whole thing. I'm lucky like this; I can often believe whatever I choose to believe about a plot point that bothers me. But I know that without the fanwanking I'd probably be feeling the same as you right now. :S

scsscs
February 22nd, 2005, 08:25 PM
I liked this episode, but there was one thing that bugged me. Does anyone else think the idea of implanting a symbiote into a prisoner to gain information is an idea that should have been used before in the show? I mean, why spend days/months/etc. torturing someone when you can just implant them. For example, in season six's Abyss, Baal could have just implanted Jack to learn what he knew and saved himself some time. I guess torture just makes for better TV.

Klems
February 22nd, 2005, 08:49 PM
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. I know. If you don't want to hear me whine, don't read below. Fair warning.

I waited 6 months for that?

I was not going to post anything on Moebius Part 1 because I wanted to see if Part 2 could bring it up. Obvously I was wrong. The producers could have done so much with this episode, it is a shame it was wasted. I was expecting this to be a sort of miniseries on its own. I was really geared up to see the rebellion and Ra getting is butt kicked off Earth. I mean what stopped him from coming back and destroying everything from orbit? He had to be pretty freaked out in order not to come back. Like what was said before, seeing some of the rebellion is something that was severely missing. There was still alot of stuff left out. In my opinion this should have been like 4 episodes long or longer.

I was really let down by this one. "The Lost City" was so much better. Hell, the Atlantis finale was leaps and bounds better than these two.

My suggestion: For the love of the franchise don't have S9. I would much rather see 3-4 Stargate miniseries per year rather than another season if it looks like S8. (Ok, I take that back for the most part the Reckoning/Threads arc owned). This year RDA "might" still be there because of a heavily reduced film schedule. The quality would be much better because they would have more money to spend it on better effects and such.

I know S9 won't kill the franchise, hell it might even improve, but what I am wondering is if it will even be recognizeable with all the "changes" that are supposed to take place.

Mio
February 22nd, 2005, 09:27 PM
Not the greatest SG1 Episode. However, It did have it's moments, and overall, It was good.


I loved the fish.


Uhm. What else?

Sam: "I can fix that..."

Buzz Lightyear
February 22nd, 2005, 09:50 PM
And Daniel died again :eek:

Daniel is starting to resemble Kenny from South Park.

"Oh no! They killed Daniel!"

retardboy
February 22nd, 2005, 09:58 PM
Daniel is starting to resemble Kenny from South Park.

"Oh no! They killed Daniel!"


So at the end they went fishing and it was 2 weeks earlier, but my question is, is Jacob still dead? Jack said you have some packing to do and so that means she just saw her new house. At the same time in the old timeline, Jacob told her he was dying... she then visited him and stuff, but in this episode, she just went fishing... So does that mean Jacob isn't dead or dying?

Buzz Lightyear
February 22nd, 2005, 10:00 PM
The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Hey, best analysis/theory yet. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/RemusL/smilies/happy/thumbs.gif

I like it cuz your explanation doesn't make my head explode, unlike some of the others.

Buzz Lightyear
February 22nd, 2005, 10:08 PM
If you just shut off your brain it's not too bad :)

Actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. Once I forgot about trying to overthink the time travel paradox (thanks to Madeleine's analysis), I was able to clear my head, and I think I'll enjoy it more on a second viewing.

ElanaM
February 22nd, 2005, 11:09 PM
So at the end they went fishing and it was 2 weeks earlier, but my question is, is Jacob still dead? Jack said you have some packing to do and so that means she just saw her new house. At the same time in the old timeline, Jacob told her he was dying... she then visited him and stuff, but in this episode, she just went fishing... So does that mean Jacob isn't dead or dying?

Best guess is that the scene in the lab occurs after Jacob's death and presumably his funeral, destruction of Anubis and dumping of Pete. His reference to her packing is in relation to going to the cabin (also possible nod to change in their 'personal circumstances'. The house Pete bought is a non-issue. We do not know how long it was between the above events and when they went fishing in Threads but I would have assumed it was probably a few days after the scene where Daniel descends in the buff. Consequently, given the events that had occurred, especially to Sam and Daniel it was an opportunity for the 4 of them to relax, recharge and get more intimate with each other (that cabin did not look like it had more than 2 bedrooms, so some 'sharing' would have occurred). Ultimately, Pete is history and Jacob is dead (unfortunately).

9-Chevron
February 22nd, 2005, 11:30 PM
This episode sucked

Moebius definition doesnt fit what actually happens .

hibernate
February 23rd, 2005, 12:16 AM
I liked the concept of Moebius, but I feel like it was rushed and many scenes left out. I was hoping to see more action in Egypt, instead its left to our imagination.

I had this feeling of "rushed" with the last few episodes, feels like they were trying to cram too much story content into too little time. Moebius could of easily been a 3 part story, same with Reckoning.

sshspooky
February 23rd, 2005, 12:23 AM
I liked the concept of Moebius, but I feel like it was rushed and many scenes left out. I was hoping to see more action in Egypt, instead its left to our imagination.

I had this feeling of "rushed" with the last few episodes, feels like they were trying to cram too much story content into too little time. Moebius could of easily been a 3 part story, same with Reckoning.
Moebius could have been a 3-pat story, but I like how they didn't show us. Think what the outcry would have been if they produced a poor rebellion fighting sequence that didn't meet up to anyone's expectations?

the simple fact is that the mystery of what happened in Egypt is still a mystery. all we know now is that sg-1 were involved.

hey! is that a ninja up there?
February 23rd, 2005, 12:51 AM
I thought it was utterly awful. No excitement, no tension, no big finalé, 2 hours built up to give us absolutely nothing. I feel really let down.

Where was the rebellion? Where was the teams plan to hold the gate? Where was Ra fleeing?

Just.....nothing. A real shame.

AlphaBlu
February 23rd, 2005, 01:24 AM
...the worst ever season ender.

Clearly you've never watched 'Out of Mind', the Season 2 ender. That was a clips show, which, I believe, is a CRIMINAL way of ending a season.

BYE

AlphaBlu
February 23rd, 2005, 01:28 AM
Mobius was really cool, lots of fun, and I enjoyed it just as much as the first one all the way through. Then we went back to 'real' SG-1 timeline, and things went from good to...

WTF mate???

Seriously. I've never been confused by the end of a Stargate episode, but this one left me confused. Like 'end-of-an-episode-of-Carnivale' confused. I'm just filled with questions:

1. Did Threads happen?
2. Is Jacob dead?
3. Packing? Packing for what - to move in with Pete? To move in with Jack? Packing to go to Atlantis?

So, I say again:

WTF mate???

I'm completely confused.

BYE

tarnsman
February 23rd, 2005, 01:41 AM
I thought it was utterly awful. No excitement, no tension, no big finalé, 2 hours built up to give us absolutely nothing. I feel really let down.

Where was the rebellion? Where was the teams plan to hold the gate? Where was Ra fleeing?

Just.....nothing. A real shame.

I sat there waiting for something exciting to happen...none of the ooomph of previous season finale's...
Apart from Daniel getting killed!! how many times has Daniel died now???

Ninja, u are so right, what happened to all those great storylines they could have included...but as I said in one of the other posts recently, i felt threads was the end of the season, and the the end of Moebius proved that

Fox McCloud
February 23rd, 2005, 02:02 AM
Ack

The end of Moebius was right at the end of Threads

Dont you understand

5000yrs ago rebellion
9 yrs ago mission to abydos
1day ago, a zpm is uncovered in egypt along with tape
they go fishing

They dont have to go back in time because its already been done. Its not one of those paradoxs where theyve been back in time therefore they have to go back in time too. Its a Moebius.

Things turned out for the best. They said this at teh end. They dont need to go back in time because its already done.

And they arnt really Alternate Universe, its Alternate Future Past.
Its my belief that the Ancient Time Jumper travels back in time in the same universe, it doesnt cross into another Universe like the Quantum Mirror.

This is evident in Window of Oppertunity, 1969, Before i Sleep and now Moebius.

Stargate Time Travel is different to normal star trek time travel or whatever.

In before i sleep, wier went back in time and got the failsafe activated. Therfore when the team arrives, the city rises. But you would normally think that if hte team arrives safe and sound, how could she go back to activate failsafe.

Stargate time travel overrides itself as it happens. Instead of loops happpening (not WoO loops) things just play out.

The SG1 at the end are the Real SG1.
The SG1 in Egypt are also the Real SG1.
The Alternate Fture SG1 in egypt are Alternate SG1.

The Real End SG1 dont have to go back in time to become Past SG1 because its already been done. The story continues.

In Siege, Everett said "Archaeologists found a ZPM in Egypt, was right under our noses" which coincideds with the end of Moebius. He didnt say "SG1 went back in time and sorted things out" They didnt have to sort things out.

SG1 made the rebellion.
Arch dug up ZPM in future.

seuoihsed[oiu

talyn2k5
February 23rd, 2005, 02:52 AM
A good two-parter but the ending was very disapointing - or rather the lack of action before the ending.
I was sitting there ten minutes from the end of the episode wondering how they were going to fit in the rebellion, stealing the gate, and showing us that everything has gone back to normal - all in ten minutes.
Simple answer: they didn't.
Rather then spending the end of the episode giving the s/j shippers a treat, they could've shown us why they have a massive fx budget. This is how I would've liked to see the episode play out:
A nice wide shot of Ra's ship with the rebel Egyptians running up to it with staff blasts being exchanged between them and the Jaffa outside the ship.
Ra's ship lifts off just as the PJ uncloaks next to the gate. Teal'c and Daniel run out and hook up the gate to the PJ just as Ra's ship hovers overhead ready to take it. They fly off with the gate, Ra flies off emptyhanded with his tail between his legs and the Egyptians celebrate very loudly while waving their staff weapons about.
Fast forward to where it picked up with our SG-1 watching the video and carry on to the end.
I agree with tarnsman that that is the perfect end to the season, with the team socialising outside of work which we have only seen a few rare times, its just a shame that they lost some of this episode's action potential in order to pull it off.

hey! is that a ninja up there?
February 23rd, 2005, 03:01 AM
I agree with you completely. They also could have done one of those 'fast forward' effects, briefly recapping all the major moments in SG:1's history to show that everything had turned out how it did originally. Would have been a nicer way to end things

david2708
February 23rd, 2005, 03:08 AM
It's all just confirmation that season eight has been garbage.

Buzz Lightyear
February 23rd, 2005, 03:11 AM
They dont have to go back in time because its already been done. Its not one of those paradoxs where theyve been back in time therefore they have to go back in time too. Its a Moebius.

And they arnt really Alternate Universe, its Alternate Future Past.
Its my belief that the Ancient Time Jumper travels back in time in the same universe, it doesnt cross into another Universe like the Quantum Mirror.

This is evident in Window of Oppertunity, 1969, Before i Sleep and now Moebius.

Stargate Time Travel is different to normal star trek time travel or whatever.

Spoiler for Atlantis 1x15In before i sleep, wier went back in time and got the failsafe activated. Therfore when the team arrives, the city rises. But you would normally think that if hte team arrives safe and sound, how could she go back to activate failsafe.

Stargate time travel overrides itself as it happens. Instead of loops happpening (not WoO loops) things just play out.

Very elegantly put. Nice and succinct. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/RemusL/smilies/happy/clap.gif

Fox McCloud
February 23rd, 2005, 03:12 AM
I make sense to myself ;)

hermajesty
February 23rd, 2005, 03:17 AM
and as far as the fish thing goes, to me it makes sense. Jack says close enough with a little smile on his face. To me he's trying to keep face in front of Sam, Daniel and Teal'c. In Threads he admits the truth as it's plainly obvious. However after watching the tape he thinks to himself "I don't want to seem stupid with no fish in my pond. i can do better then that" so he gets some fish and puts them in his pond, hence the smile and the line. he's kind of proud that he got fish put in his pond.

I like this explanation - this is what i will believe untill season 9 comes :)

Also, someone (sorry, can't find the quote again) said that perhaps Daniel was the one who wrote the writing on the stones found by the gate that he translated in Stargate the movie. Well. maybe he designed the writing specifically so that he would be the only one who could read it - therefore ensuring that his future self got a place on the stargate program.

Overall, I liked this 5 episode arc. We didn't have a huge season end battle, but i think that was dealt with well in reckoning, and threads gave a kind of closure on the Jack/ Sam story line. I'm not a shipper, but i do think its pretty clear that they're gonna end up together. Moebius gave us a chance to look back over the last 8 years (happily not as a boring flashback episode) and to get some great jokes.

:cool: According to my interpretation, 5000 years ago a Daniel, and an alternate Jack, Sam and Teal'c sparked a rebellion. Then they buried the stargate, and buried a video tape and ZPM. But then what? They still have the 'gate ship', so why would they stay in Egypt for their whole lives? They could go anywhere. They could go to the future to check it turned out right, and meet the team we saw at the very end of Moebius fishing. Or they could go to any other time at all. So much fanfic potential... :D

Chaka's_Mum
February 23rd, 2005, 03:56 AM
And they arnt really Alternate Universe, its Alternate Future Past.

If we start talking about time-travelling grammar, I think we need to call in Dr Dan Streetmentioner. Right Now.
Please excuse the totally irrelevant Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference there - I just think it needed to be said

I just sat back and enjoyed this ep. After the climactic stuff that we got in Reckoning and Threads, it was nice to have a bit of comedy, a bit of drama and to get Peter Williams and Jay Acovone back for a bit. Apophis may have appalling dress-sense, but he was always a cracking baddie. Okay, so there were all sorts of screwy things going on with timelines - but hey, why not? The only thing I'm grumping about right now is the fact that there won't be a new episode on Sky next week to look forward to... :(

Oh, by the way, was it just me, or is AT's bump starting to show? If it was - Cool! If it wasn't - that was one heck of a bulky cardigan! :D

Fox McCloud
February 23rd, 2005, 03:56 AM
Maybe in S9 they meet themselves ?

DetriusXii
February 23rd, 2005, 04:21 AM
Anyways, thinking about the 2 parter now when the original timeline was changed and we ended up with no SGC, wouldn't an explanation of how to protect earth been included in the video tape?

Step 1: Go to Cimmeria and contact the Asgard
Step 2: Tell Thor that Replicators can be defeated with the help of an Asgard mothership (and probably their cloning problem)
Step 3: Visit one of the two locations with an Ancient Library of Knowledge and download it
Step 4: Go in statis, design the Replicator gun & solve the Asgard reproduction problem
Step 5: Then go about exploring other planets. Asgard motherships will be protecting us from any such threats from Apophis & any other Go'uld.

To me, with the destruction of the original timeline, saving the Asgard would seem to be the #1 scenario and getting the job done quicker would keep the asgard stronger so they could protect us better. Seems those three gate addresses should have been a priority.

lordvader
February 23rd, 2005, 04:30 AM
I wanted to see a lot more Ra, of all the system lords, his getup is the coolest (and the biggest!).

Wish there weren't fish in that pond, unless it was a joke to annoy all those continuity nuts ...

tarnsman
February 23rd, 2005, 04:34 AM
wonder if Daniel will oversee a dig, to find the mummified remains of the AU SG team... :p

anielleda
February 23rd, 2005, 04:43 AM
OK.... at the end of Moebius Pt 2, when Jack took the ZPM away he told Sam he would take it because she had packing to do. ( at the end of threads Sam broke off the marriage to Pete) So does this mean Sam has moved in with Jack, because in the next scene they were sitting in his garden fishing?????

This would explain why Jack is not in Season 9 as he had to leave the air-force to be with Sam, but could still be head of homeworld security, because civilians can do that job.

honzix
February 23rd, 2005, 05:02 AM
I agree with Madeline that the only time we saw "our" SG-1 was at the end of Moebius 2.

My theory is that the SG-1 that went back in time at the beginning of Moebius 1 was from an alternate universe, which was very similar to ours. In Egypt they screwed things up and created an another alternate timeline, the one with nerdy Sam and Daniel. Those went, again, back in time and found the Daniel from the first reality.Then, together they started the uprising and created our timeline.

So I think that the SG-1 from the end of Moebius is "our SG-1" and the one from the begining is just an another alternate team that just helped to create our own timeline.

does it make any sence? :confused:

AsgardCarnage
February 23rd, 2005, 05:10 AM
honzix thats the theory i'm going with as well, so basicly the whole 2 ep's bar the last few min where all AU people that helped to create the timelime we have always known. just because it wasn't the first time line dosn't make it any less real.


time travel in general is meant to give u headacs thats half the fun trying to figure it all out so i would say the writers have done their job in keeping time travel confusing for as geeks who like that kinda stuff

FrankGuthrie
February 23rd, 2005, 05:21 AM
Damn, so dissapionting. The other seasonfiles were very all good, but this was absolute crap.

Seems like they blew the budget on Reckoning which would make a better finale, keeping everyone in the dark about the whereabouts of Daniel Jackson.

The village looked cheap, Ra wasn't in part 2, only for e few minutes in part 1. Aphophis had the same honor, only a few minutes in part 2. Everything about this episode screamed cheap. And the solution was so rushed.

This was a very dissapointing episode, maing me wonder if having 2 shows is putting a strain on the budget

Scoobing
February 23rd, 2005, 05:32 AM
I have to agree with you, as a mid-season two-parter it would have been ok. But as a finale, it was a bit of a let down. I agree with you that Reckoning would have made a good finale, and then Threads a good opener for season 9.

Crazedwraith
February 23rd, 2005, 05:34 AM
true but thers no reaosn for this not to be in the Mobieous epsiode threads.

Crazedwraith
February 23rd, 2005, 05:37 AM
Solid episode not brilliant and no where near as good as any seaosn finale yet bar "Out of Mind" it was even worse than "Full Circle" which never has done anything for me either.

It was slow long winded and entirely without any decent action. They've done Foighting Jaff on CHulak much better than that before. In fatc this epsidoe was just a mangled mix of refenrences to CotG, the Movie and SG:A Rising and an unhelath dose of ship shoehorned in where possible.

While I know I was complaining last week anout changes in the timeline for no reason this episode had something worse: Apprently changing something but not really.

Theres no need to say OMG! Teal'c's on Apophisis side! Then have him switch sidea second later. It's silly having AU Sam say she fancies Daniel if in the next scene she tackles Jack slobbering all over him.

Fox McCloud
February 23rd, 2005, 06:58 AM
FFS

The past was overwritten !

Like Before i Sleep

The end SG1 are teh r34l deal.
As are the ATL folk.

No Alternate Universe stuff. This was all in-universe.

Jonzey
February 23rd, 2005, 07:06 AM
I wish people would stop condeming this episode because it doesn't fit in with their own personal theories on time travel.

Fact is, no one knows what happens if you travel back in time because no one has done it yet.

I just enjoyed the episode rather than trying to poke holes in the plot by saying 'Oh, that doesn't happen in time travel. They're wrong. They messed it all up!!'.

Yes, there wasn't much action. But it didn't need it. Reckoning had enough for that. The SG1 at the end was the real SG1. Like Daniel said about half way through part 1 'If we bury the ZPM and find it in the future, maybe our future selves wont have to undertake this mission' (Or something along those lines). And that's what happened. Only there was an intermediate stage with the alternate versions.

It was a little rushed though, they said they'd go some place and then BAM! they were there.

Fox McCloud
February 23rd, 2005, 07:08 AM
As has been the same for the last leg of episodes. Big story, too little time to do anything with it.

Jonzey
February 23rd, 2005, 07:12 AM
OK.... at the end of Moebius Pt 2, when Jack took the ZPM away he told Sam he would take it because she had packing to do. ( at the end of threads Sam broke off the marriage to Pete) So does this mean Sam has moved in with Jack, because in the next scene they were sitting in his garden fishing?????

This would explain why Jack is not in Season 9 as he had to leave the air-force to be with Sam, but could still be head of homeworld security, because civilians can do that job.
:rolleyes:
It has never explicitly said that they were together at the end. It did not say Jack had retired and it did not say Sam moved in with him.

Sam was either packing for:
a) The fishing trip they all went on
b) To go to Atlantis on the Daedelus, as they discussed at the start of part 1.

immhotep
February 23rd, 2005, 07:20 AM
i definitly think its no2. shes wanted to go for age ( wonder why he didnt ask daniel though).
the whole episode was load better than pt1. but still lacked in action and could have been loads better if the AU bits wernt as long and the rebelion/ egypt was better captured and longer,( just like pt1.)
i really hope some of the elements hinted at are wrapped up in siege and the first few eps of nxt season.

Galluslass
February 23rd, 2005, 07:37 AM
OK, so it was a little bit rushed, but it was totally watchable. :) I try not to get my head around the 'time warp' thang and enjoyed the writers attempt to please the shippers.

The storyline was sped up to the extent that the characters almost ceased to be because of it. For instance, DJ showing no emotion on his first sight of the alt SG1. He may have seen them die what, ?4 yrs earlier, and yet he didn't bat an eyelid. But then, someone will pop up to tell me that the 1st SG1 was the alternate one in the first place, and Aaaaaargh, (holds head) I can't take it anymore.....please no more time tinkering!!!

Hey, makes ya wonder though, is this going to be an overused resource for the writers in S9? - let's hope not. Or if they do, let it be sparingly used.

Not a bad two-parter, since Threads really did round everything off. Well done to TPTB. I'm happy with S8. :D

animoid
February 23rd, 2005, 10:24 AM
Before the forum is going down AGAIN I will make sure to post my review...

So this was the season ender? Bleh.

Close, but no fish. Wait, there was fish. And it was just wrong on so many levels.
I have to quote Janeway on this one: "Time Travel. It all gives me a headache."

I believe the events unfolded this way: the events of Threads did happen, except for the last scene, which we saw slightly altered at the end of Moebius. In between, Sam tells Dannyboy & Teal'c about the Daedalus, Daniel gets the call about Katherine's death, holds his speech, everyone meets back at the SGC to unpack Katherine's stuff featuring the box with the woodwool, the ZPM and the tape. They (='our' SG-1) figure they don't have to do anything, because the tape confirms there've been no major (detectable) changes to the timeline. Neat.

As for the fish...I'm almost led to believe that Jack made up the fishless pond all the years. But....naawwww. So...close enough?! What else will be 'close enough' for us to find out in s9? I shudder at the thought. Oh well.

All in all, it was okay, but not great. Nice job of wrapping up 8 years plus the movie, good to see some familiar faces (although Apophis was almost..bland and Kawalsky, well, he died again :S, but yay for Rodney and his non-existant manners...the bad boy grabbed Carter's butt!), interesting trip down comedy lane with AU Sam and Daniel (hideous hair, hideous clothes, hideous glasses, brilliant performances!). The pace of the episodes didn't feel right, but I critisized that already about the SGA finale. Action/non-action bits didn't fit together, some parts were rushed. And where exactly was the great rebellion against Ra? I bet a lot of people would've wanted to see that! Instead we get a bunch of Jaffa surrounded by a lot of Extras in rugs onna dune. Hmpf. Seems like they spent all the money for the Atlantis finale. Which isn't bad either.
Also inconsistent: writing for Teal'c (no, I'm not getting used to it!) While I generally love Teal'c's character, he was barely present in the first part and immediately convinced by the videotape 'magic' later. Nevertheless a short but moving speech that tells so much about his whole arc in so little time.

I'm not going to touch the shippy stuff, not even with a long pointy stick. :S :S

Oh, one more thing.
Daniel's speech at the funeral is an important bit - he speaks about Katherine as someone who "saw the world not for what it was but for what it could be". Ah. So did we in the two-parter. Very clever. He goes on: "And she saw a potential in people that others failed to recognize." This pretty much sums up the struggle of AU Daniel and AU Sam to stay involved in the Stargate project and not just be "the people on the tape".

What is left to say at the end? This was a season finale, next year the SG-1 universe is gonna undergo drastic changes, and I feel like I've been left hanging mid-air. In a strange way. No real closure. This episode didn't leave me confident about next season's enjoyability despite all changes, and that fact speaks volumes about the writing style these days.

Metarock Sam
February 23rd, 2005, 10:29 AM
I thought this episode was great.
however I didn't like the fact that they killed off Kawalski.
AU Kawalski:Why did you bring them ?
AU Jack: I had a gut feeling
AU Kawalski: Yeah like Peru?
AU Jack : That didn't got as planned
AU Kawalski: aswell as mexico hong kong, korea. Yeah those were really gut feelings
also the thing about AU Daniel being a gou'ald he should have been one longer then he could have tried to gain control of the ship and he'd have died in the ship.
If they wanted to they could have destroyed Ra there and then with the puddlejumper but I guess they didn't want to altar the timeline.
And the kinda scene taken from the movie when all the eqyptians rebel against their god Ra however it wasn't as long or as good as I would actually have liked to see the egyptians truimph over Ra and make Ra leave with ihs tail beween his legs.
The Apperance of Apophis was good however they should have focused more upon Egypt.
A good season ending (not as good as lost city) 8.5/10

Kalinda
February 23rd, 2005, 11:21 AM
Well, let's see..

It started out really cool, parts of it had me smiling; like when they opened the Gate for the first time in the AU timeline and they were palying that familar tune. The movie came to mind, as it was the same music they play when the Gate opens there :) And probavbly elseware in the series that I've forgotten lol.. I've been watching the movie a lot lately, though.

Also when they go to Chulak, a lot of that was great and yet again I note that Daniel falls victim to the "bad stuff always happens to Daniel" curse heh heh. Having Apophis back was cool, as he was, imho, one of the best villains on the show.

The whole thing was shaping up to have one really epic and interesting climax.. and then it just wasn't there... the episode could've covered the whole thing with the uprising; that's what I really wanted to see.

To that end, it felt kind of... short, like there could've been more. It's like there was no climax.

That's what was dissapointing about it; besides that it was great and I enjoyed it up until the end.

As for it being the would-be series finale; I would've much preferred something like Lost City, with all its epic glory, to Moebius because it felt so lacking in the epic department and there wasn't enough action.

I'm glad they did explain the somewhat confusing timeline stuff that I really didn't quite understand from Part 1, it still seems a bit odd to me but it makes sense.

Oh.. and my biggest nitpick is that Ra's Jaffa should've SO been dressed like they were in the movie.. that would've been bloody cool! :D

Anyways, it was good overall but the ending was terribly dissapointing, wish we could've witnessed the rebellion :(

Soo... 8/10

sshspooky
February 23rd, 2005, 01:26 PM
I agree with Madeline that the only time we saw "our" SG-1 was at the end of Moebius 2.

My theory is that the SG-1 that went back in time at the beginning of Moebius 1 was from an alternate universe, which was very similar to ours. In Egypt they screwed things up and created an another alternate timeline, the one with nerdy Sam and Daniel. Those went, again, back in time and found the Daniel from the first reality.Then, together they started the uprising and created our timeline.

So I think that the SG-1 from the end of Moebius is "our SG-1" and the one from the begining is just an another alternate team that just helped to create our own timeline.

does it make any sence? :confused:

the only problem with that is that the fishing scene appeared at the end of threads was different to that of Moebius, so they can't have both been our timeline!

Jonzey
February 23rd, 2005, 02:00 PM
i definitly think its no2. shes wanted to go for age ( wonder why he didnt ask daniel though).
the whole episode was load better than pt1. but still lacked in action and could have been loads better if the AU bits wernt as long and the rebelion/ egypt was better captured and longer,( just like pt1.)
i really hope some of the elements hinted at are wrapped up in siege and the first few eps of nxt season.
Maybe Danny is going as well. He only told Carter to pack since she wanted to study the ZPM instead. Danny would probably have had a lot of free time.

buuzero
February 23rd, 2005, 03:03 PM
Dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but wouldn't it be weird if Teal'c's symbiote in the past somehow found it's way into a host?????

Hmmmmmm.....

Quinn Mallory
February 23rd, 2005, 03:58 PM
So I liked the Moebius two parter (what a shock there...I don't think I have posted that I hated an episode ever).

The alternate timeline story was interesting although it remains to be seen how close the reality at the end of the show resemble the reality of the canon of the 8 season before the two parter (I doubt TPTB would want to it to be different at all although it does give them a loophole should they choose to exploit it). That would probably be my biggest concern about season 9 that for whatever reason they decided to change the past of the show as we know it.

So I see that some people are a bit disappointed with the lack of action in this episode. I do think that that wasn't much of an issue especially since we had the huge galactic fight in reckoning and threads that anything that they try to do here would most likely pale in comparison (plus the budgetary concerns).

As I mentioned in my post for part 1, the most disappointing thing for me was the lack of screentime for the SG-1 team as we know it. This was of course also true for part 2. However, I think in the long run, I'll like this episode more when I return to watch it.

One little detail that I noticed in part 1 when I rewatch it was the abundance of Canadian flags in the marina where Jack has his boat. I guess Jack could have been in Canada for all we know or the Minnesota marina often has plenty of Canadian boats.

I am optmisitic about season 9. I'll probably chime in on that in another thread.

alz0rz
February 23rd, 2005, 04:50 PM
Amazing, is the word I would put this episode under, enough said :)

On another note, what do you guys think of meh new sig :) I may start making people these if they want too, but I need to get good ratings first :)

Agent_Dark
February 23rd, 2005, 05:44 PM
I liked it, but as other people have said it would have worked better as a mid-season two parter and reckoning be the season finale. But having said that it was still a great episode :)

Any scene with AU Carter had me rofling and the vis effects (the few that there were) were good.

With the AU Carter admitting she like Daniel, I remember a web interview that AT did a while ago and she got asked wether she would feel about some Sam/Daniel ship in an AU or something, to which she replied 'Bring it on! He's Cute!' lol, I wonder if that scene in Moebius part 2 had anything to do with that... O.o

Carter Packing just after the ZPM is taken away = Carter in Atlantis??!?!! I can only hope! :D



On another note, what do you guys think of meh new sig :)
Dude, 3mb sig is not cool :|

Mr. Seven
February 23rd, 2005, 06:09 PM
This was good, but the ending was way too rushed. I mean all of a sudden, BAM the timeline is fine.

I suspect that they put the camcorder and ZPM somewhere where they knew it would be found (after the Jaffa uprising)...

Did Jack in the past use the ship to put fish in his pond? ;)

saxamoophone
February 23rd, 2005, 06:21 PM
^^^
not to mention you really shouldn't put spoilers of VIDEO CLIPS in your sig for those who haven't seen it yet.

Anyways, twas a good episode. My head only *kind* of exploded. I guess this means that there are more than one time machines out there.... for instance, the *end* Sg-1 team still have a time ship that they found in "It's good to be the king" , PLUS they have the timeship left on Earth from the episode. I was kinda thinking that there would only be one timeship and that it would be the only thing consistant from each time alteration, but if that was the case then "it's good to be the king" wouldn't have unfolded like it did, and they would have found the puddle jumper as the AU Sg-1 did....
AHHHHH

Anyways, I guess we can assume that the timeline is as it was just prior to the very end of threads.

As for the "you have packing to do"...i'm sure he's just talking about the trip to the cabin. Nothing more, noting less.

The episode it self was good for a standalone episode, however, it could have used a bit more closer. I have no idea what they are going to do next week when they start filming S9 with no Jack or Sam. How are they going to explain that one?

I guess S9 could take place a few months later. In fact, they could just say Sam retired and Jack took a promotion to head Homeworld Security, and that they were together now. It would be a little weird not seeing it all first hand, I'm really hoping they have RDA back for at least a few episodes this season, just for an episode or two so we can all have our jack fill, and so that the first episode of S9 transistions to the new cast well. Anyways, they could have Sam come back into duty (or as a civilian?) becasue of some event that needs her special attention or whatnot, and she can carry on her romance with jack and everyone is happy ;)

Just a thought

Zoser
February 23rd, 2005, 06:23 PM
I have only one question is my Jack O'Neill dead, is our SG-1 dead? 'Ours is the only reality that counts' as Teal'c has said and if so why should I care about these people who make up the stargate universe now?

Im_just_guessing
February 23rd, 2005, 06:25 PM
Carter Packing just after the ZPM is taken away = Carter in Atlantis??!?!! I can only hope! :D



She was packing for the fishing trip.



Questions: What could possably change to put fish in the pond? And wouldnt Jack know if there was fish in the pond beforehand?

They DO still have the timeship right?

Did anyone else find that this was what Children of the Gods would have been if they had a Puddle Jumper with the gate at Giza? (I mean, ESSENTIALLY, not exactly)

Gateship One=Fantastic, but I think Past Daniel should have mentioned it was called a Puddle Jumper, and have Oneill make some remark about how it was much better than Gateship

Avreana
February 23rd, 2005, 06:30 PM
Carter Packing just after the ZPM is taken away = Carter in Atlantis??!?!! I can only hope! :D



I'm not sure if this is a spoiler but just in case:

That was the original plan. In an interview I read recently, Amanda Tapping said that her character was supposed to show up at Atlantis at the beginning of season 2. So I think when this episode was written, the line about her packing referred to her going to Atlantis. Now that Amanda Tapping will be out for the first 5 episodes they had to scrap that plan. They probably left the line in the episode because they can say she was packing for some other destination (like the alpha site) and it will explain her absence in season 9.

mathwizard
February 23rd, 2005, 06:32 PM
Anyways, twas a good episode. My head only *kind* of exploded. I guess this means that there are more than one time machines out there.... for instance, the *end* Sg-1 team still have a time ship that they found in "It's good to be the king" , PLUS they have the timeship left on Earth from the episode. I was kinda thinking that there would only be one timeship and that it would be the only thing consistant from each time alteration, but if that was the case then "it's good to be the king" wouldn't have unfolded like it did, and they would have found the puddle jumper as the AU Sg-1 did....
AHHHHH


Of course there will only be one PJ if the PJ in this eps was destroyed after the rebellion so that it couldn't be discovered by present team. But... is it destroyed? :S

Congerking
February 23rd, 2005, 06:32 PM
what's urking me is that they said once you see what happens at the end of season 8, you will see why they are taking the path they are taking in season 9. I don't know about you, but did you guys see anything that could explain a path they are taking in season 9?

BAA, I was expecting something huge and out of left field to change and make SOMETHING different. Oh well, guess we have to wait until july to find out what, if anything, is different.

mathwizard
February 23rd, 2005, 06:44 PM
I thought that we have "lost" our original team as well as they died in ancient Egypt.

But this is not the first time timeline has been altered. In the "original" time line, SG-1 met the Aschen at some point in time, which we didn't get to see on screen. Then after the event in "2010", SG-1 altered the time line. Does that follow that the "original" SG-1 died in 2010? *Confuse* :rolleyes:

Further thinking about it, it SEEMS that time travel in Stargate works in one universe. The time line if messed with, get changed but not by branching out different parallel universes, but by totalling erasing the old time line and replacing it with a new one. Otherwise why would SG-1 bother to do what they did in "2010" if their world is still going to be under Aschen control and what they did is just helping to branch off another alternate universe? It seems like they believe that by changing the time line, their world will no longer exist (their timeline erased or reset), not still existing somewhere in some alternate universe. Arghh... confusing :S

Giantevilhead
February 23rd, 2005, 06:46 PM
Good old time travel, now there's three time travelling puddlejumpers lying around the place.

Im_just_guessing
February 23rd, 2005, 06:50 PM
AU Carter very clearly stated she was going to destroy them. So they only have ONE Puddle Jumper at most.

Giantevilhead
February 23rd, 2005, 06:58 PM
Foolish naive Carter, time travel would make things so much easier, it would get things down without anyone actually doing any work. They could constantly go back to the past and give their past selves information and technology from the future so that their past selves wouldn't have to get it in the first place.

Elwe Singollo
February 23rd, 2005, 07:12 PM
Gosh, just think of it, a little tiny thought would change things...

Kind of scares me...

alz0rz
February 23rd, 2005, 07:15 PM
:rolleyes:
It has never explicitly said that they were together at the end. It did not say Jack had retired and it did not say Sam moved in with him.

Sam was either packing for:
a) The fishing trip they all went on
b) To go to Atlantis on the Daedelus, as they discussed at the start of part 1.

I dont think they were explaining the ramifactions of 'Letters from Pegasus' in the beginning of Moebius P1. They were talking about going to Atlantis because of the failed mission in 'Prometheus Unbound'. I think they "get" the message sometime after Moebius P2, and then The Siege 1/2 takes place.

About the packing thing, I think he told her to pack because of the fishing trip but you bring up an interesting point about RDA's status for next season. Maybe he can have that relationship and that is how he will be written out :(

But thats just me.

-al

dpgiffin
February 23rd, 2005, 07:27 PM
That is, IMO, how TPTB will explain her absence in the first few episodes. The timelines overlap a bit in season 1/9 of sga/sg1 and allow sam to be gone for a few days while all of the action in the first few eps of season 9 occur :)

alz0rz
February 23rd, 2005, 07:33 PM
Moebius P2 Screencaptures if anyone is interested,

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=345059

:D

SEREN LWCH (MAL)
February 23rd, 2005, 08:18 PM
On first impressions I was not keen on this ep. I found it confusing and boring. Also as a couple of posts have said rushed.

The ending was the most hopeless i've seen for a season finale. This was a ep that might have ended the series???

On saying that I did watch it after 10am after being up over 17 hours. So maybe I need to rewatch it when i'm feeling more awake. I'll rewatch next week.

Jarion
February 23rd, 2005, 08:33 PM
After watching Moebius parts 1 and 2, I am pained to say what many other members have been pointing out:

These episodes were disappointing.

Sure, the humor was appreciated, but a finale focused on an alternate reality team rather than our SG-1 when next season we will never see them as regularly again...just...

Oh...pain....

These episodes lacked so many different aspects that make Stargate...Stargate. Where was the action? For those two hours, I realized that I cared less and less about watching the AUs weasel their way into the mission. I wanted to see what was happening with SG-1--the scheming! The fighting! Uh, the demise? Maybe?

And where was the emotion? There were no emotional reactions at all. It was as if they were saying: "Aw, crap. Kawalsky's dead." or "Hey! Daniel, where's Sam, Jack and Teal'c?" Daniel: "Oh, yeah. That. Didn't work out so well. *shrug*"

Everyone just seemed so disposable with the reset button looming over their heads. At no point did I feel the need to scream, "Please, oh god, save SG-1, Fake SG-1!"

"But Jarion, what about the thing with AU Jack and Sam! You know the thing! That made it better, at least?" My dear shipsters, don't be fooled by your blinding love. I don't consider myself shippy, but that was terrible! They barely even knew each other. It was just...Oh..god...choking....

Really bad.

Summary: Moebius had a lot of wasted potential. They should have just sprinkled a bit o' AU fun on top.

majorsal
February 23rd, 2005, 10:33 PM
According to my interpretation, 5000 years ago a Daniel, and an alternate Jack, Sam and Teal'c sparked a rebellion. Then they buried the stargate, and buried a video tape and ZPM. But then what? They still have the 'gate ship', so why would they stay in Egypt for their whole lives? They could go anywhere. They could go to the future to check it turned out right, and meet the team we saw at the very end of Moebius fishing. Or they could go to any other time at all. So much fanfic potential... :D

spoilers for s8's it's good to be kind and moebius 2

i LOVE this idea! :-D that way, the alts don't suffer for the rest of their lives. :-D thanks! i really don't know why this wasn't thought of before. remember, the puddle jumper thinger was found on the planet where maybourne was living, so how did it get there?... yay! :-D

sally :)

aeromathlete
February 23rd, 2005, 11:09 PM
Granted, this was a pretty fun episode, but at the same time I was rather disappointed by Moebius because I was dying to know what happened to the *real* SG-1. Instead we got stuck with the ALTs. Not just some little "oh, yeah. they died." I would almost say it would have worked for a midseason episode, but this for a potential series finale? This as our possible final episode with Richard Dean Anderson? What a waste from that point of view.

I'm thinking about sitting out on Season 9. This is the first time I've ever said that, too.

At this point, I like Atlantis better. Never thought I'd say that, either. Except I think that's exactly what TPTB want us to say right now. They're putting much more effort into their little baby spinoff and letting SG-1 rot. I've never been pissed at the quality of SG-1 before, but I am now. I could've stopped watching after the Lost City and been perfectly content.

Watching by habit now.

mathwizard
February 24th, 2005, 12:07 AM
I dont think they were explaining the ramifactions of 'Letters from Pegasus' in the beginning of Moebius P1. They were talking about going to Atlantis because of the failed mission in 'Prometheus Unbound'. I think they "get" the message sometime after Moebius P2, and then The Siege 1/2 takes place.
-al

But Carter refers to the timeship as "jumper" in Moebius 1 (during the scene where the ship was discovered by the jaffa). So they would have to get the message already, otherwise they wouldn't known it's called "jumper"?

Avenger
February 24th, 2005, 12:32 AM
A good two-parter but the ending was very disapointing - or rather the lack of action before the ending.
I was sitting there ten minutes from the end of the episode wondering how they were going to fit in the rebellion, stealing the gate, and showing us that everything has gone back to normal - all in ten minutes.
Simple answer: they didn't.


That's what I thought too. I was really expecting a great action sequence in the last 15 minutes or so, but it jsut never happened. When it cut to the ending scene, I was disapointed.

kashi
February 24th, 2005, 01:39 AM
I am relieved to know that the timeline has been repaired (enhanced when one considers the fish in Jack's pond...:P), however I didn't expect them to get it over with in 45 minutes. I thought the solution was a little too simple.

cubby14
February 24th, 2005, 02:09 AM
I think it was a good season finale, okay a bit pointless but so was Prometheus Unbound. I think season 8 is the fun season where they play around but have a few serious episodes along the way.

This episode reminded me a bit of ST TNGs Yesterdays Enterprise where the timeline has changed but it hasn't really. There is so very small differences in the timeline not to affect too much and have pretty the same events happening in the timeline but there are suttle differences like fish in the pond and SG-1 not going to the past. Trying to make sense of the timelines give me a headache. I think what i'll do is take a page out of Janeways book, don't even try to understand.

IndianaJones00
February 24th, 2005, 02:29 AM
From what I understand, episodes of SG-1 and Atlantis are ment to be viewed one after the other so you would watch Episode 15 of SG-1 and the Episode 15 of Atlantis so at the end of Episode 20 of SG-1 with the timeline restored they now have a ZPM and straight after that in Episode 20 of Atlantis 'a team arrives from the SGC saying they have a ZPM which was found in Egypt'

For some reason in the UK Atlantis is a few episodes behind SG-1 so they no longer sync up, the message sent from Atlantis to SGC in Episode 17 should have been recieved between episodes 17 and 18 of SG-1 but because of the way Sky are showing SG-1 it looks like it was recieved between episode 19 and 20 but infact it wasent.

Albion
February 24th, 2005, 03:29 AM
OK.... at the end of Moebius Pt 2, when Jack took the ZPM away he told Sam he would take it because she had packing to do. ( at the end of threads Sam broke off the marriage to Pete) So does this mean Sam has moved in with Jack, because in the next scene they were sitting in his garden fishing?????

Since the fishing trip is the scene immediately after that one, it never occurred to me that Jack meant anything more than that she had to pack for the trip to his cabin. Especially when you add in his expression and the tone in which he says it. I don't think he'd have put that kind of emphasis or import on her packing if it was for a mission. He's slightly smug there. Teasing. But I think he would have done if he was referring to a fishing trip he'd been trying to get her to agree to for eight years and had finally succeeded in achieving his goal. So, on reflection, that's still what makes the most logical sense to me.

Albion :)

alkalinemono
February 24th, 2005, 03:40 AM
From what I understand, episodes of SG-1 and Atlantis are ment to be viewed one after the other so you would watch Episode 15 of SG-1 and the Episode 15 of Atlantis so at the end of Episode 20 of SG-1 with the timeline restored they now have a ZPM and straight after that in Episode 20 of Atlantis 'a team arrives from the SGC saying they have a ZPM which was found in Egypt'

For some reason in the UK Atlantis is a few episodes behind SG-1 so they no longer sync up, the message sent from Atlantis to SGC in Episode 17 should have been recieved between episodes 17 and 18 of SG-1 but because of the way Sky are showing SG-1 it looks like it was recieved between episode 19 and 20 but infact it wasent.
they dont sync up because of the 90 minute threads episode but i think there gona played seige part 1 and 2 together so its all good

Fox McCloud
February 24th, 2005, 03:54 AM
Why do people prefer Reckoning as the finale ?
Reckoning didnt come to a close till Threads.


People dont worry too much about the time travel. They wouldnt pull something so devastating as what some people are thinking up.
Its basically along the same lines as teh time travel from Before i sleep. The past was overwritten.
The Atlantis folk arnt alternate universe people are they lol !

Tok'Ra Hostess
February 24th, 2005, 04:28 AM
Um... an okay episode; it tied in well with threads, but though I laughed to see Geek Carter grow a backbone and kiss the guy I would have liked to have seen a bit of chemistry between them first.

I dunno, a line, here and there; Sam could have blurted without thinking that the scruffy jerk cleaned up nicely or something.

AT Sam was so OTT last week that I'd have thought she would have reacted more when the nicest man in her universe was shot point blank by an alien. :S

I think MS played the two Daniels very well. Our Daniel had just lost the other members of his team - and didn't he look steamed that Jack and Teal'c hadn't obeyed Sam's orders, subsequently screwing up the timeline, and putting him through some angst? :) But, of course, with all our Daniel's been through, and with him hoping he could turn the timeline around, he wouldn't have been all emotional when SG-1 came back.

And, while I saw distinct chemistry between the two AT characters, there was none between "our" Daniel and AT Sam, which I thought was convincing on Daniel's part, but, again, something AT Sam should have stumbled a bit over.

Up til the scene in the PJ, there was not much in the way of chemistry between Jack and Sam, either. :(
(And when that scene happened all I could think of was Andromeda for kiddies.)

Teal'c... yes, he played a part in this ep, too, but again, more could have been made about his role as stranger in a strange circumstance.

So, all in all, Moebius was a terrific idea, but I think it would have worked better as a good, thick, paperback.

Zoser
February 24th, 2005, 04:37 AM
This episode seems to be the Grandfather Paradox meets the Heisenberg Principle.
If they go back in time and change something, they must forever go back in time to effect that change. If they die in the past they will not exist in that same future to benefit from the said change. They are creating an alternate universe not changing their universe. Therefore these people are not our SG-1. And I for one only care about our SG-1. I morn their passing.

Katkin
February 24th, 2005, 05:24 AM
Just re Moebius… I already posted this on the ship thread so apologies to anyone who read it there but someone mentioned that this is the thread most likely to be visited by JM himself so wanted to get my two cents’ worth in here as well. On one level, I really enjoyed the episode. I liked AT Sam and Jack and it was nice to see them interacting with each other without the regs [‘call me Jack…’] in the way. The sly dig at the shippers [‘Actually I’m attracted to Daniel…’ ‘I wonder if the future me has a boyfriend…’] was a good in-joke and it was nice to see the suck-face and imagine what could have been with our Sam and Jack [yes, I am a shipper]. As for the total lack of RST between our Sam and Jack: well I didn’t expect any RST in MII so because I didn’t set myself up for that disappointment, I didn’t feel disappointed. The weird thing is though that although I didn’t get any sense at all that they were ‘together’ at the end of Threads I did get that sense at the end of MII: don’t know why – was it cut differently? I’ll have to rewatch both to see.
Now what I didn’t like… too much to tell in too little time and because of that I felt the episode was really ‘shallow’. Where was the emotional depth? Daniel didn’t seem at all affected by seeing his friends [albeit a different version of them] again. Making friends with AT Teal’C was too easy: surely both he and the team should have exhibited slightly more trust issues than that standoff when he killed AT Daniel.
There was no insight into what might have gone on during the real SG-1’s time in Egypt. The RST wasn’t between the real Sam and Jack, so there was no satisfaction to be gained for me as a shipper. As much as I enjoyed AT Sam and Jack, they weren’t our team and as such I didn’t feel any emotional connection with them. I wanted to see our team, and not just in a tacked-on-at-the-end fishing scene.
I felt there was a total lack of suspense because the timing of the episode was so badly off – with only 10 minutes to go nothing had been resolved, so it was obvious that there was going to be a really brutal and anticlimactic cliffhanger or it was all going to happen off-screen [and sure enough…]. And, reset alert, anyone?!!
Perhaps the suspense and timing would have felt better if both parts had been screened back-to-back but to be honest I think it would have been better served as a three-episode arc, with the middle episode concentrating on our team in Egypt. As it was, it just didn’t work for me as a season finale. As a mid-season two-parter, fine – but I think Reckoning I and II would have worked much better as the season finale.
I’m going to be respectful of the non-shippers here and have deleted my final rant about the lack of RST!

Mclogan
February 24th, 2005, 05:25 AM
I thought it was utterly awful. No excitement, no tension, no big finalé, 2 hours built up to give us absolutely nothing. I feel really let down.

Where was the rebellion? Where was the teams plan to hold the gate? Where was Ra fleeing?

Just.....nothing. A real shame.

I like the episode for the comedy it had. But, it was disappointing in the action sense of the series. For a season finale I would expect more. For the episode to actually work it should have showed the rebellion, Jake stilling the Stargate with the ship and Ra leaving in fear. That was really missing in the show.

honzix
February 24th, 2005, 05:59 AM
the only problem with that is that the fishing scene appeared at the end of threads was different to that of Moebius, so they can't have both been our timeline!

The fishing from Threads must have been from the alternate reality. i think it´s the only way how to explain it.

TechnoBoY
February 24th, 2005, 06:37 AM
I have to agree with everybody else that said it was a dissapointment. The spoilers on Gateworld made it seem so good! I was really dissapointed. It shouldve been good, but it just wasnt. There isnt any one thing that didnt work out, it was the whole. The first ep was okay, it was kinda slow going but I didnt mind. I thought part 2 would make up for it. It didnt really and still leaves a lot to be desired.

From now on I'll try to keep my hopes down on SG1 eps. That way I can be suprised and not let down.

There were some nice parts though. Jack thought Daniel was gay, bwahahha!

Feli
February 24th, 2005, 06:47 AM
Both parts of Moebius were okay IMO but nothing more. There were quite a few funny scenes that made me laugh out loud but all in all I'm not too thrilled.

Two things that disappointed me hugely:

1) Why, why would Sam think that re-taking the puddle jumper revealed by the sandstorm would have a greater effect on the timeline than 4 people - 3 of which not speaking the language, one being a huge black guy with a gold Apophis tatoo on his forehead - trying to live out their lives in ancient Egypt? If she was afraid of stepping on a bug she should also have realized that both those actions (re-taking the jumper or staying in Egypt) would affect the timeline and that there was no way for her to figure out which would be worse. Ergo they could have gone with re-taking the jumper and be done with it.

2) The kiss between AT Jack and Sam was unbelievable, devoid of any emotion and gratuitous. I didn't see any sparks between them. I don't see any real feeling, passion in Jack when he tells Sam that he thinks she's hot. She's there and must certainly be starved for some attention, so why not make a pass at her, right? We'll be dying soon anyway.
And Sam is interested in Daniel but hey, guess what, we're dying soon anyway, the Daniel I got to know is already dead and oh, I've never kissed a guy with a gun before.

Very disappointing. I know it sounds harsh but in all the ATs/AUs we've ever seen them together there was at least some chemistry. Something the scene in Moebius completely lacked IMO.:mad:

sgafansam
February 24th, 2005, 06:56 AM
Good old time travel, now there's three time travelling puddlejumpers lying around the place.


thank you for pointing that out.

I was wondering how many would be floating around now.
Presumable ra has one but couldnt use it. . . they destroyed one or were going to.....

so yeah i wonder if they will show up next season

sgafansam
February 24th, 2005, 07:28 AM
Both parts of Moebius were okay IMO but nothing more. There were quite a few funny scenes that made me laugh out loud but all in all I'm not too thrilled.

Two things that disappointed me hugely:

1) Why, why would Sam think that re-taking the puddle jumper revealed by the sandstorm would have a greater effect on the timeline than 4 people - 3 of which not speaking the language, one being a huge black guy with a gold Apophis tatoo on his forehead - trying to live out their lives in ancient Egypt? If she was afraid of stepping on a bug she should also have realized that both those actions (re-taking the jumper or staying in Egypt) would affect the timeline and that there was no way for her to figure out which would be worse. Ergo they could have gone with re-taking the jumper and be done with it.

2) The kiss between AT Jack and Sam was unbelievable, devoid of any emotion and gratuitous. I didn't see any sparks between them. I don't see any real feeling, passion in Jack when he tells Sam that he thinks she's hot. She's there and must certainly be starved for some attention, so why not make a pass at her, right? We'll be dying soon anyway.
And Sam is interested in Daniel but hey, guess what, we're dying soon anyway, the Daniel I got to know is already dead and oh, I've never kissed a guy with a gun before.

Very disappointing. I know it sounds harsh but in all the ATs/AUs we've ever seen them together there was at least some chemistry. Something the scene in Moebius completely lacked IMO.:mad:


I agree with your first point about staying there...That was pretty dumb knowing tealc and jack how she does.

The kiss between the two though.......look at it from thier prospective....they just met.. the kissing between them wasa akward between 2 fairly newly aquainted people.

Jonzey
February 24th, 2005, 07:51 AM
OK. I feel the need to say this again.

The SG1 Team at the end is OUR SG1 team.

As Daniel said halfway through part 1-
'If we bury the ZPM, maybe our future selves will find it and wont have to undertake this mission'. (Something along those lines anyway).

And that's what happened. Hence our team is alive at the end. And they never went back in time.

Whistler
February 24th, 2005, 08:58 AM
From what I understand, episodes of SG-1 and Atlantis are ment to be viewed one after the other so you would watch Episode 15 of SG-1 and the Episode 15 of Atlantis so at the end of Episode 20 of SG-1 with the timeline restored they now have a ZPM and straight after that in Episode 20 of Atlantis 'a team arrives from the SGC saying they have a ZPM which was found in Egypt'

For some reason in the UK Atlantis is a few episodes behind SG-1 so they no longer sync up, the message sent from Atlantis to SGC in Episode 17 should have been recieved between episodes 17 and 18 of SG-1 but because of the way Sky are showing SG-1 it looks like it was recieved between episode 19 and 20 but infact it wasent.

That isn't right though, Sky had it right initially, because Atlantis doesn't start until New Order has finished. Because Weir doesn't leave until New Order part 2 after promoting Jack. :)

Elite Anubis Guard
February 24th, 2005, 09:08 AM
now this was far better than part 1, the action and the whole thing was great. loved apophis and the shot of the PJ/TS going through the egyptain gate was amazing damn and kawolsky back again.

the intertaction between carter and oneill was great, oneill saying he through daniel was gay....lol...brilliant episode!

Fox McCloud
February 24th, 2005, 09:10 AM
Its because threads took up a whole fday, so Atlantis is 1 ep behind. But its ok.


I also should say that THE END SG1 ARE THE REAL SG1 !!

The past overwritten itself.
Rebellion-ZPM found-Fishing
HE had A fish in his pond. *No Fish* and *1 fish* is "Close enough". If you have 1 fish in a big pond lake, you may aswell have no fish. He may have not even known there was one fish in there. I mightve been hiding. I rarely see my own fish in my pond.

TPTB wouldnt replace them all with AU sg1 and completly **** up everything.

Take it at fae value. They sorted out the past for the better. They got ZPM and Present was the same (bar ZPM).

OK ????

Pitry
February 24th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Well, it only makes sense I'll post my first post here about the episode hat was supposed to be the end of the show.. so here goes.

Moebius, both parts, was a good episode. A very good episode and I really liked it.
But... It might have been the noise all around, the fact I had to simoultanously watch and explain things to a friend that didn't watch Stargate since... season 5 methinks, that I read more spoilers than I wanted to and that I had such high expectations for this episode... but I felt a bit disappointed.

The pace was way too rushed. It should have been a three parter - or at least, part 2 should have been 60 minutes (although that would have meant Threads wouldn't have been and then I would have been complaining about Threads...). Why couldn't they have dropped one of the non-arced episodes, like Icon, and make this a three parter? It had the same problem Fallen had, too much they wanted to tell in not enough time. The scenes seemed to follow each other with no real depth into them... The idea was very very good, the scenes from CotG and the movie were really to the point... but they didn't connect well, and too much was missing. I also don't get the pacing of the scenes... I mean, yeah, a lot of people want to see the Jack and Sam things, just like I want to see other things... but it feels like it came instead of the actual plot, like the Puddle Jumper scene. I didn't mind it in Threads because that episode had enough time so that the plotline I felt was more cental to the show, Daniel, Oma, Anubis etc. wasn't hurt. Here the episode suffered from the amount of time that was dedicated to the Jack and Sam bits... meh.

Also, I tend to feel Atlantis' budget is way bigger than SG-1's. I really like Atlantis, especially the second part of the season that was really good, but SG-1 I love, and while I don't mind not seeing big explosions too often and care more about the more character-driven episodes than the action-driven ones, this episode demanded SFX. I suspect that's the reason we didn't get to see the rebellion agaisnt Ra - I mean, they went all the way of doing it, returning to the movie, hell, even remaking the last scene - but with the PJ and half a dozen Jaffa?... It's like the climax of the movie would have been the Naquadah mine scene. If they only would have completely remade the scene - the angry Egyptians shouting and rebelling near Ra's pyramide, it would have looked much much better.

Apart from these two (main) problems, the episode was really cool :) Daniel's death was too rushed, I really wanted to see more evil Goa'uld Daniel, but I really liked the return to Teal'c's "meaningful" looks from CotG. Also the happiness in which he told the Jaffa are free!... and that reality's Teal'C's reaction, he almost cried... hehe. The entire idea of the episode was brilliant - it would have made a proper show ending, now I'm only sceptic about what would end up being the real ending of the show, it feels like the ultimate series finale! Two out of the show's mythology's uber-bad-guys in one episode, how amusing - oy, and Apophis' dress! *shudder* that's one Goa'uld that never had a dress-sense. Carter telling O'Neill she likes Daniel, that was gold!

Oh, right, another thing it's a shame they didn't show - Daniel and Jack were too much "our" Daniel and Jack rather than the movie's. I really hoped MS would return to the seasons 1-2 James Spader bits - but he only had one true Spader moment, the "You're kidding" bit in part 1. Jack also, started a bit Kurt Russelish but soon returned to be a lot more "our" Jack - a shame, it could have served as a great insight to how he was before the Stargate mission. Carter lost her geekiness real fast in part 2, a shame, I was really enjoyng it.:) Kowalsky dead again... McKay was pure gold, I so love this character. Gate-ship indeed! I would have liked more time in concentrating on Daniel who spent 5 years in Egypt... again, I blame the rushed-pace of the episode. It's a shame, though, because he isn't a secondery character, never was, and in the movie and CotG he's got one of two main story lines. Returning to that would have been more appropriate...

As for the AU questions.. I'd like to think of the team we saw in the beginning of part 1 as an AU team, our team only in the end of part 2. Technically they can't be the original team because they lived 2 weeks that didn't exist in our time - and perhaps it's an honest mistake from the production, but Ballinsky was wearing SG-22 uniforms instead of SG-13 in the beginning... Could be a small change. That Thread happened I have no doubt, because Teal'C speaks of the Jaffa being free on the tape, and our Teal'C has no problem with that, so it must have happened - and as for the fish...well... :)

Fox McCloud
February 24th, 2005, 09:22 AM
At the beginning of Part 1 Daniel said "there was an expedition in egypt and they found *blah blah*"

At the end of Moebius, it is set just as that dig finished, and they found a ZPM. Right at the end of the Threads day.

kodamawu
February 24th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Does anybody else think that the way everything worked out in the end was just a bit too lucky?
and why did Jack look surprised when he saw a fish in his pond, even if the timeline was changed it's still his pond and he should know if there were fish in there or not. i can understand sam's surprise, but still...
and in the alternate future, if kinsey was president, why would he authorize the mission? isn't he a ******* who hates everybody who could potentially cost him the presidency?

Ironman1957
February 24th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Well I just saw Moebius Part 2 & was very disappointed. If I got this right the ORIGINAL SG1 Team except for Daniel Jackson Died. The second SG1 team from the past are the ones that survived which was kind of disappointing because that meant that O'Neal & Carter(the originals)never got to make something of their relationship that I assumed was going to happen. Remember at the end of part 2 Carter tells O'Neil " according to the tape I thought there were no fish in your pond". I take this as meaning the timeline was never really restored and that the 2nd team returned from the past with as far as I'm concerned major changes. The only exception being that Daniel Jackson was the only original member of the original SG1 team to return. How strange this must be for him knowing that the current SG team are not the same. Now this might be trivial but to me it makes BIG difference. Boy did the writers really screw this one up.

Thanks

Brassguy
February 24th, 2005, 12:15 PM
no, the timeline was changed back (sort of) to the way it was.

they found the ZPM and the tape a day before they were to leave, so they didn't have to go back in time.

IndianaJones00
February 24th, 2005, 12:17 PM
The alternate O'Neill, Teal'c and Carter never returned to the present, they stayed in the past as once they took the stargate with the puddle jumper they destroyed it, at least that is what Carter said they were going to do so they all spent the rest of their lifes living in ancient egypt but because they changed the future yet again a new timeline unfolded in which everything was the same as the original but because they had hid the video camera and ZPM the new original SG-1 never had to go on the mission.

All very confusing I know but it does make sense depending on which time travel theory you go with.

joasia
February 24th, 2005, 12:17 PM
Being on Chulak, convincing Tealc he worships false gods
Erm... They knew that the AT Teal'C probably didn't worship Apophis at all (just like the original one), but had no way to overthow the Goa'uld. They needed to show him a way of doing it and the tape was some kind of proof that it can be done.

death of Kawalski
I feel sorry for him. Could survive and live a quite life in Ancient Egypt with the mixed SG-1. Wouldn't hurt anyone, would it? ;)

Elite Anubis Guard
February 24th, 2005, 12:23 PM
i wonder if ra was still alive and in power in that Timeline!

joasia
February 24th, 2005, 12:23 PM
I liked this episode, but there was one thing that bugged me. Does anyone else think the idea of implanting a symbiote into a prisoner to gain information is an idea that should have been used before in the show? I mean, why spend days/months/etc. torturing someone when you can just implant them. For example, in season six's Abyss, Baal could have just implanted Jack to learn what he knew and saved himself some time. I guess torture just makes for better TV.
Maybe Baal simply liked to torture people? Or he wanted to show off his cool gravity gadgets... ;)
More seriously - the knowledge he seek has been buried deep in O'Neill's mind. Who knows how hard it is for a Goa'uld to get to such memories? Torture could be more efficient.
As for the extracting knowledge by planting a Goa'uld into someone Hathor did it. So Baal could use it, but did not and Hathor used it. Who else had the opportunity? Remember - (s)he would have to have a mature symbiont handy.

joasia
February 24th, 2005, 12:26 PM
According to my interpretation, 5000 years ago a Daniel, and an alternate Jack, Sam and Teal'c sparked a rebellion. Then they buried the stargate, and buried a video tape and ZPM. But then what? They still have the 'gate ship', so why would they stay in Egypt for their whole lives? They could go anywhere. They could go to the future to check it turned out right, and meet the team we saw at the very end of Moebius fishing. Or they could go to any other time at all. So much fanfic potential... :D
If AT Sam had it her way they blew up the timeship. Or rather both of them, if Daniel still knows where they parked the firs one... :D

joasia
February 24th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Further thinking about it, it SEEMS that time travel in Stargate works in one universe. The time line if messed with, get changed but not by branching out different parallel universes, but by totalling erasing the old time line and replacing it with a new one. Otherwise why would SG-1 bother to do what they did in "2010" if their world is still going to be under Aschen control and what they did is just helping to branch off another alternate universe?
The question is - why not? They are doomed, so let's go and save the 'other' Earth. In "There But For the Grace of God" the AU SGC does the same - saves some other Earth knowing that they are going to die. Luckily for the viewers it's "our" Earth.

Metarock Sam
February 24th, 2005, 12:39 PM
The alternate O'Neill, Teal'c and Carter never returned to the present, they stayed in the past as once they took the stargate with the puddle jumper they destroyed it, at least that is what Carter said they were going to do so they all spent the rest of their lifes living in ancient egypt but because they changed the future yet again a new timeline unfolded in which everything was the same as the original but because they had hid the video camera and ZPM the new original SG-1 never had to go on the mission.

All very confusing I know but it does make sense depending on which time travel theory you go with.
Yah took the words right out of my mouth. But you forgot about the fish :p

Feli
February 24th, 2005, 12:43 PM
I agree with your first point about staying there...That was pretty dumb knowing tealc and jack how she does.

The kiss between the two though.......look at it from thier prospective....they just met.. the kissing between them wasa akward between 2 fairly newly aquainted people.

The complete lack of emotion and sparks because they'd only just met and felt awkward doesn't make me feel any better about the scene than them kissing without being attracted to each other, only because they thought they'd die soon anyway.

But thanks for trying!

joasia
February 24th, 2005, 12:43 PM
One thing bothers me. OK, it's the alternate timeline - Ra did take his favourite Stargate with him, has not been killed by O'Neill&Co, so he is probably ruling his territory. So far so good. But did the SG-1 really made so big dent in the Goa'uld forces that Anubis did not reveal himself?
And who has been Apophis wife (I doubt he came hunting to Ra's planet) and did he had his Harsesis child?
Questions, questions... ;)

sshspooky
February 24th, 2005, 12:47 PM
Does anybody else think that the way everything worked out in the end was just a bit too lucky?
and why did Jack look surprised when he saw a fish in his pond, even if the timeline was changed it's still his pond and he should know if there were fish in there or not. i can understand sam's surprise, but still...
and in the alternate future, if kinsey was president, why would he authorize the mission? isn't he a ******* who hates everybody who could potentially cost him the presidency?
this is something i've been thinking of. since i haven't re-watched it i wasn't sure what Jack's face was like. the possibility that everything is as it should be and that Jack was surprised about the fish, hence the line 'close enough', is a pretty good one. the fish could then be explanned as being an odd fish and it's possible not to realise a fish has appeared in a large pond, and it could have strayed in somehow.

i also find it quite shocking that people don't believe the present SG-1 are our SG-1 and are mourning the other SG-1. this is going against everything that SG-1 wasn't. when they went back and were trapped they were not concerned about themselves now, they were only concerned with their future selves and making sure that the timeline stayed the same and they didn't have to go on this mission in the future. they were totally selfless and realised their lives now were not as important as their future lives, and i think it is important to remember the heroism of the characters.

TechnoBoY
February 24th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I think people realize that SG1 is our SG1, its just weird. Like I know it is, but its still weird in the back of my head. Cause SG1 that we know died, and this SG1 has done everything that ours has done, but we know that ours died. So its ours SG1, and not them at the same time. Get it? Uh... Kinda hard to explain. Um... Yeah...

cybersyd
February 24th, 2005, 01:58 PM
I'm on the side of thinking that "our" SG-1 died back in Ancient Egypt. I ascribe to the idea that it is impossible to go back to one's own timeline and change something, because by going back you create a parallel universe.

So.. Universe A. Our SG1, SG1-A, learn that Ra had a ZPM. They take the jumper and go back in time... thus creating Universe B (in which an SG1 team was around at the time of Ra).

In Universe B, Carter, O'Neill and Teal'c of our SG1, SG-A, die (and Daniel too, albeit a bit later). Due to their actions Ra takes the 'gate with him when he leaves Earth, meaning there is no SGC for the 'present' SG1, SG1-B, to join. SG-1B then go back in time again... creating Universe C.

Universe C is identical to universe B up to the point at which SG1-B enter. So there's a version of Daniel identical to Daniel-A. SG-1B join Daniel, protect the 'gate, and then events proceed as they did in Universe A. The SGC is created, Carter and co join, blah blah and we're now watching SG1-C in Universe C, which is entirely identical to Universe A except that back in the time of Ra there was an SG1 team from a parallel universe (SG-B) who left the tape and the ZPM for SG1-C to find in the future.

Eh, but what does it matter. In any real sense, SG1-A are identical to SG1-C and hey, it's a tv show! Plus all the shippers can think of SG1-B's O'Neill and Carter having a lovely relationship back in the Ancient Egypt of Universe C, whilst for us non-shippers, SG1-C's Carter and O'Neill are at exactly the same place as SG1-A's Carter and O'Neill were.

I wonder if the writer's bums are getting sore from that fence they keep sitting on?

Lord Zedd
February 24th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Sorry to say this but man that was a disappointment !!! :( I had high hopes for this.We didn't saw Ra in this episode.We saw a little bit of Ancient Egypt but what were they thinking ?? when they shot this.Perhaps they should have made a 3rd part of Moebius because this was really really a bad ending and when I read the spoilers on gateworld it sounded so cool. And I thought that the second half of s8 was going to be good and it sounded all good but oh boy this is terrible to end a 8th season !! :( I don't want a season 9 anymore I want a movie and I want a big BANG to end !!

Jonzey
February 24th, 2005, 02:29 PM
I'm on the side of thinking that "our" SG-1 died back in Ancient Egypt. I ascribe to the idea that it is impossible to go back to one's own timeline and change something, because by going back you create a parallel universe.

So.. Universe A. Our SG1, SG1-A, learn that Ra had a ZPM. They take the jumper and go back in time... thus creating Universe B (in which an SG1 team was around at the time of Ra).

In Universe B, Carter, O'Neill and Teal'c of our SG1, SG-A, die (and Daniel too, albeit a bit later). Due to their actions Ra takes the 'gate with him when he leaves Earth, meaning there is no SGC for the 'present' SG1, SG1-B, to join. SG-1B then go back in time again... creating Universe C.

Universe C is identical to universe B up to the point at which SG1-B enter. So there's a version of Daniel identical to Daniel-A. SG-1B join Daniel, protect the 'gate, and then events proceed as they did in Universe A. The SGC is created, Carter and co join, blah blah and we're now watching SG1-C in Universe C, which is entirely identical to Universe A except that back in the time of Ra there was an SG1 team from a parallel universe (SG-B) who left the tape and the ZPM for SG1-C to find in the future.

Eh, but what does it matter. In any real sense, SG1-A are identical to SG1-C and hey, it's a tv show! Plus all the shippers can think of SG1-B's O'Neill and Carter having a lovely relationship back in the Ancient Egypt of Universe C, whilst for us non-shippers, SG1-C's Carter and O'Neill are at exactly the same place as SG1-A's Carter and O'Neill were.

I wonder if the writer's bums are getting sore from that fence they keep sitting on?
No. Because you see, OUR sg1 never went back in time.

UnknownJ
February 24th, 2005, 02:34 PM
No. Because you see, OUR sg1 never went back in time.

Before I Sleep Just as Old Weir wasn't OUR Dr Weir, even though she was the original in a sense

The only problem with that is that the SG1 who went back in time lived in a universe where Jack had no fish. The SG1 we're left with lived in a universe where Jack DID have fish.

And we know that Seasons 1-7 take place in the former universe...

But I'm willing to overlook that :o)

@Li3n
February 24th, 2005, 02:44 PM
I'm on the side of thinking that "our" SG-1 died back in Ancient Egypt. I ascribe to the idea that it is impossible to go back to one's own timeline and change something, because by going back you create a parallel universe.

So.. Universe A. Our SG1, SG1-A, learn that Ra had a ZPM. They take the jumper and go back in time... thus creating Universe B (in which an SG1 team was around at the time of Ra).

In Universe B, Carter, O'Neill and Teal'c of our SG1, SG-A, die (and Daniel too, albeit a bit later). Due to their actions Ra takes the 'gate with him when he leaves Earth, meaning there is no SGC for the 'present' SG1, SG1-B, to join. SG-1B then go back in time again... creating Universe C.

Universe C is identical to universe B up to the point at which SG1-B enter. So there's a version of Daniel identical to Daniel-A. SG-1B join Daniel, protect the 'gate, and then events proceed as they did in Universe A. The SGC is created, Carter and co join, blah blah and we're now watching SG1-C in Universe C, which is entirely identical to Universe A except that back in the time of Ra there was an SG1 team from a parallel universe (SG-B) who left the tape and the ZPM for SG1-C to find in the future.

Eh, but what does it matter. In any real sense, SG1-A are identical to SG1-C and hey, it's a tv show! Plus all the shippers can think of SG1-B's O'Neill and Carter having a lovely relationship back in the Ancient Egypt of Universe C, whilst for us non-shippers, SG1-C's Carter and O'Neill are at exactly the same place as SG1-A's Carter and O'Neill were.

I wonder if the writer's bums are getting sore from that fence they keep sitting on?


This is why i really hate TIME TRAVEL, it's always a damn mess.


P.S. Seasons 1-8 where in the NO FISH IN POND universe (the end of Threads) and season 9 will be in the FISH IN POND universe, because that one got created at the end of season 8, and we only saw it for like 5min.

tarnsman
February 24th, 2005, 03:48 PM
This is why i really hate TIME TRAVEL, it's always a damn mess.


P.S. Seasons 1-8 where in the NO FISH IN POND universe (the end of Threads) and season 9 will be in the FISH IN POND universe, because that one got created at the end of season 8, and we only saw it for like 5min.

Is the fish gonna be a recurring character??? :D :D :D

Easter Lily
February 24th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Phew... I wadded through 10 pages of critiques, analyses and garden variety bouquets and brickbats... just to say that I rather enjoyed it...

My husband often says that there is not a lot of science in science fiction... but I say the operative word in the genre is "fiction"... the gobbledegook fools us into thinking that there is more "science" in science fiction than there really is.
Hence, I don't have a problem with time travel stories... as convoluted as they may be. It's a good excuse for a bit of humour, for the actors to do something a little whacky and for everyone to pose the "what if" questions. In Stargate time travel there is a strong sense of fatalism... Que sera sera and that sort of thing... I don't know what the scientific gobbledegook for it is... but I think FoxCloud explained it all very well. But I don't think time travel has anything to do with science... nope... it has more to do with metaphysics... and in the case of Moebius... it is all about the fact that some things are meant to be and really, the timeline is irrelevant. There is no logical explanation for it... it has to be fate...
Note the following points:
SG-1 is meant to be a team
Teal'c is meant to turn
Sam and Jack are meant to get all shippy
The Stargate is meant to be found
Ra will get his bottom kicked to the nearest galaxy

When I look at it in this existential way, it all makes sense in a bizarre sort of way... even the crude attempt at the James Bond style bonding at the end.

At the end, all is well with the universe because everything is as it should be... because everything was meant to be... so really the 80 something minutes of show is not quite necessary... except for a nice bit of giggle here and there.
Hmmm... a shame really, I rather like the idea of a geeky Sam and Daniel producing little Sammys and Dannys.

Enokrad
February 24th, 2005, 06:23 PM
What happend although not told, is that Danny and the alternate SG1 team after the took down Ra's Jaffa, The rebellion was a success, Ra left and did not take the gate, the time machine was destroyed, Alternates Jack and Sam got together and pretty much all 4 lived the rest of their lives in Egypt doing their best not to frack up the timeline again. And as a result the SG1 in the original timeline never had to take the mission. Lets go fishing everybody :cool:

LordAnubis
February 24th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Wouldn't the Ra from the Movie have recognized the SG-1 team when he first saw them on Abydos?

Thek
February 24th, 2005, 07:07 PM
...
Note the following points:
SG-1 is meant to be a team
Teal'c is meant to turn
Sam and Jack are meant to get all shippy
The Stargate is meant to be found
Ra will get his bottom kicked to the nearest galaxy



It makes me edgey to watch a show that is like "These two people must ALWAYS be together NO MATTER WHAT." or "These are the ONLY people who can save Earth from UTTER DESTRUCTION."

'Cause it makes them special and I don't want to watch a show about special people. I want to watch a show about normal people in extraordinary circumstances.

Buzz Lightyear
February 24th, 2005, 08:08 PM
It makes me edgey to watch a show that is like "These two people must ALWAYS be together NO MATTER WHAT." or "These are the ONLY people who can save Earth from UTTER DESTRUCTION."

'Cause it makes them special and I don't want to watch a show about special people. I want to watch a show about normal people in extraordinary circumstances.

Well, isn't it a bit late to make that decision, seeing as how we're on the verge of season 9? SG-1 is all about special people. Jack, Sam, Daniel and Teal'c are heroes who have fought off the Goa'uld many times, often saving Earth in the process. They're anything BUT normal. Sounds like you want to watch something more along the line of Band of Brothers.

Easter Lily
February 24th, 2005, 08:15 PM
I have some sympathy for what you say, Thek but I doubt that there has been anything ordinary about SG1 right from the beginning... a linguist who has a working knowledge of 20 something dead and living languages as well as being a walking history book, a female airforce pilot with several science degrees and the knack of coming up with solutions at the eleventh hour(called a genius in a couple of episodes); a deadpan alien of military reknown turns into freedom fighter...
Jack... could be considered ordinary I suppose in the way a cat has nine lives...

cybersyd
February 24th, 2005, 09:26 PM
No. Because you see, OUR sg1 never went back in time.

Ah, but if 'our' SG-1 had never gone back in time, there would be no ZPM in the present.

Unless of course, we were watching a parallel universe at the beginning of the episode and Universe C is actually 'our' SG-1. Although that doesn't work either because Universe B only exists because of the actions of SG-1 in Universe A.

Although it's all meaningless because the original SG-1 died in 2010 and we've been watching an alternative universe ever since that ep...

(1969 doesn't count because they only did actions they were pre-determined to do. Like that episode of Futurama where Fry becomes his own grandfather).

This is why I love science fiction! Because you can argue for months about the science behind it. Or, um, metaphysics behind it. I'm a sucker for all that. Just don't get me started on the fourth dimension...

Major Tyler
February 24th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Sam said it herself..."There goes causality."

The Rebellion originally happened because of SG-1, the same way Hammond knew to give Sam the dates in "1969."

The team is the same...a fish in the pond makes no difference. It's a fish, for crying out loud!

Jonzey
February 24th, 2005, 11:33 PM
Ah, but if 'our' SG-1 had never gone back in time, there would be no ZPM in the present.

Unless of course, we were watching a parallel universe at the beginning of the episode and Universe C is actually 'our' SG-1. Although that doesn't work either because Universe B only exists because of the actions of SG-1 in Universe A.

Although it's all meaningless because the original SG-1 died in 2010 and we've been watching an alternative universe ever since that ep...

(1969 doesn't count because they only did actions they were pre-determined to do. Like that episode of Futurama where Fry becomes his own grandfather).

This is why I love science fiction! Because you can argue for months about the science behind it. Or, um, metaphysics behind it. I'm a sucker for all that. Just don't get me started on the fourth dimension...
Oh. My. God.

Ignore Moebius, and replace the last scene from threads with the two last scenes from Moebius part 2. Ignore the fish.

ITS THE SAME DAMN TEAM.

majorsal
February 25th, 2005, 12:28 AM
i want to ask: how would alt sam, jack, and teal'c have been executed by a goauld in ancient times?


sally :)

dark
February 25th, 2005, 02:17 AM
To those who said this episode feels rushed: I totally agree. However, keep in mind the past two seasons were made with the knowledge that there might not be a next season... so they wrote all of the season finales as if they were series finales as well. In previous seasons (1-5, maybe 6?) all of the finales were cliffhangers to be resolved in the next season.

I agree with the person who said they should have made this a three parter. The first two parts being at the end of season 8, and the final part at the beginning of season 9.

kashi
February 25th, 2005, 02:24 AM
From what I understand, episodes of SG-1 and Atlantis are ment to be viewed one after the other so you would watch Episode 15 of SG-1 and the Episode 15 of Atlantis so at the end of Episode 20 of SG-1 with the timeline restored they now have a ZPM and straight after that in Episode 20 of Atlantis 'a team arrives from the SGC saying they have a ZPM which was found in Egypt'

For some reason in the UK Atlantis is a few episodes behind SG-1 so they no longer sync up, the message sent from Atlantis to SGC in Episode 17 should have been recieved between episodes 17 and 18 of SG-1 but because of the way Sky are showing SG-1 it looks like it was recieved between episode 19 and 20 but infact it wasent.

ATLANTIS 1x19/20 SPOILERS BELOW:

They didn't really sync up anyway, as the ZPM was received in Atlantis 1x19, which is before the timeline was fixed in SG-1.

Jonzey
February 25th, 2005, 03:20 AM
ATLANTIS 1x19/20 SPOILERS BELOW:

They didn't really sync up anyway, as the ZPM was received in Atlantis 1x19, which is before the timeline was fixed in SG-1.
Not so. Becuase technically they had the ZPM at the end of Threads. Then 2 weeks later they were testing the Daedelus's hyperdrive. So the ship was ready to leave at about halfway through Seige part 1.

Tok'Ra Hostess
February 25th, 2005, 04:27 AM
Oh. My. God.

Ignore Moebius, and replace the last scene from threads with the two last scenes from Moebius part 2. Ignore the fish.

ITS THE SAME DAMN TEAM.

<cough>.... I can see you feel very strongly about this. :p

The following is a general observation about Stargate time travel/alt universes, and not one aimed at Jonzey in particular:

What do (general) you make of that scene near the end where SG-1 is looking at the tape. Jack finishes with his, "no fish in my pond" comment, and Sam asks him, "Is that correct?"

Note that Jack did not say, "Yes." :eek:

So, from this I observe that, 1) Sam doesn't know about the lack of fish in Jack's pond, even though she's heard of Jack's philosophy about fishing. Surely Teal'c has told her that there are no fish in Jack's pond, and, anyways, wouldn't that Sam have been there in the past with Jack to hear him say that? :S

2) Jack didn't answer whether or not the "no fish" statement was correct because he knew that it wasn't and hoped to not have to futz with the timeline because it seemed too complicated for him, or he was in too much of a hurry to get Sam to his lodge... yeah, in this case, probably the latter. :rolleyes:

richardf
February 25th, 2005, 05:21 AM
After all the hype surrounding Moebius, in the end i found it a little disapointing and unsatisfactory, posing far more questions than it answered.

it would 've been ok as a mid season story, but as a season finale it does not match up to previous finale stories. Reckoning or even Threads would have made a better end to season 8. Moebus could have been used as an opener for season 9 instead.

As a story 'Moebius' had far more potential than the 2 episodes it covered. There could even have been potential for a longer 'story arc' covering several episodes. Then we could have seen more of say, ancient egypt under Ra/goa'uld on earth in general, or developed the 'alternate timeline' arc more (including more of 'alternate' Apophis an a goaulded daniel). Finaly and most importantly (for me at least) more on the rebellion against Ra and how they stopped him taking the 'gate away. Oh yeah and i suppose the fate of the 'team' in ancient egypt, and the Jack/Sam thing.

As it is there are so many questions about the episode as it was done, particularly the last 15 minutes of Moebius 2. In the end it all seemed too easy to change the timelime back.

Questions:
How large an army did Ra have in egypt? Surely not just the squad That attacked the PJ, yet defeating this patrol seemed to win the rebellion.

How did they get the gate from under Ra's nose and then hide it?

Why didnt the jaffa patrol shoot Tealc on sight?. Surely they would see him as an enemy ie first prime of Apophis (assuming Ra and Apophis were at war at this time).

it seems that the egyptian rebellion needed SG1 to suceed AND keep ra from taking the stargate (otherwise how could the timeline have been so easily changed by the first ('our') SG1?). If thats the case it can be argued that the events of 'Moebius always happened, and in efect the SGC/SG1 caused the events that led to thier own creation!! This created a paradox does it not? (Whoah now i have a headache!) In other words what hapened in the original (unaltered) timeline?

What does happen to the 'team' back in A egypt after the rebellion? Do they stay or try ot go home/ And what about the timeship(s?) are they destroyed or left buried for our time to find?

What about the goauld weapon the egyptian rebels seem to have? What do they do with them? Why arent they later found be archeologists in our time?

There are more but that will do for now.

Fox McCloud
February 25th, 2005, 06:52 AM
Perhaps the geeky sam/daniel verse is the unaltered verse ?

Serebii
February 25th, 2005, 07:01 AM
In a few eps of SG1 Jack Mentioned that the pond had bass that were

|_____________________|

That big...he tried to get Carter and Thor fishing by sayin so. If there were no fish there then he wouldnt have said that

So since theres a fish in the end we are back with Our SG1 but the Scene at the end of threads was with Alternate SG1

It was never actually mentioned elsewhere in SG1 that there were no fish...just that O'Neill rarely catches them

Wass
February 25th, 2005, 07:11 AM
After watching Moebius again I sort of got the basic idea and how the managed to fix the time line although I will still say it was great disappointment for season final I expected a lot more then I got from this episode. As many people have mentioned on this thread I think Reckoning or Thread would have made a better season final and Moebius should have been before episode 16/17. I still don’t understand how this will lead to season 9 and also am I correct in assuming the we now have 2 PJ’s now or did one get destroyed.

Serebii
February 25th, 2005, 07:25 AM
I think they could have 3. I'll just call them Jumpers 1, 2 & 3

One from Maybournes Planet in Timeline C - Jumper 1
The One Timeline A Travelled Back in Time With - Jumper 2
The One Timeline B Travelled Back in Time with - Jumper 3

Now I know they're all one and the same but the Jumper 2 there for Timeline B to find then Jumper 3 travelled back in time so Jumper 2 was still buried then and presumably Jumper 3 is going to be left there too

However when the timeline is restored...they still have Jumper 1. Its just a matter of finding Jumpers 2 & 3

Man thats almost as confusing as the episode itself

*goes to stop his head from exploding*

hermajesty
February 25th, 2005, 08:17 AM
Maybe there were fish in Jack's pond all along, he's just dreadful at fishing and pretends there aren't any so as not to lose face. And in the final scene, he knows he was probably lying on the tape, but doesn't want to admit that to Sam, so he just says "close enough".

Half Ascended Idiot
February 25th, 2005, 11:34 AM
Brilliant idea - a second spin off Stargate: Fish in the Pond

They could re film the past eight seasons completely from scratch but just change any references to no fish in the pond. I know i'd watch it!

.Ra.
February 25th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Taking the risk of repeating ideas already presented in this thread, I will try to convey my theory on the time travel in "Moebius". While reading through the thread, I noticed three principal approaches to the time travel problem (meaning travelling back in time):

1) travelling back in time creates a new timeline, a new reality, a new universe

2) travelling back in time changes history, history gets overriden, but it's still the same timeline

3) the traveller is predetermined to travel back in time; he takes the time trip to do something in the past, something that leads to the regular course of history, including himself taking the time trip in the future, thus creating a loop.

As for the third approach, let's read once again a notable post by Madeleine:

The more I think about it the more I have to believe that the SG-1 we saw in the last two scenes are 'our' SG-1.

In the first loop they got something wrong, very slightly wrong, and it altered the timeline to a small degree - probably nothing changed between when Ra left with the gate and when the Langfords went digging in the 1920s. And then fromm the '20s there woul dhave been small changes rippling from everyone who 'should have been' involved with the Big Round Weird Artifact, until the '90s when the SGC 'should have' happenned.

All that came from just one event - the invisible PJ being spotted.

So what about the great big rebelion Daniel led at the end? People and Jaffa would have died, been injured, been in different places and led different sorts of lives as a direct result of that; and the genetic repercussions alone would mean that almost the entire world would have been peopled pretty differently by now. No way could Daniel's rebellion possibly succeed in restoring the timeline.

So the only way that the events we saw could possibly have led to the penultimate scene is if the Rebellion that Daniel spoke of in the movie was *always* kickstarted by him and SG-1. Daniel-in-the-past was just doing what had 'always' been done by him and the Alt-Teal'c, Alt-Jack and Alt-Sam.

Where the whole thing came from though, since in the end 'our' timeline is as it is without any of them recalling any of this, is just... a wrinkle in time. Just a funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum, threatened to bugger stuff up until a beautiful moebius loop righted everything, and then floated away leaving everything unchanged but for the fortuitous appearance of a ZPM.
I would love to support the idea of a loop, in which SG-1 goes back in time to start the rebellion against Ra. Ingenious ending for the series! But that didn't happen. They travelled back in time, screwed things up, changed history, their future alter egos travelled back in time, changed history once again, albeit in a more desirable way. If the rebellion is *always* kickstarted by the mixed SG-1, if the rebellion is part of the time loop, the future SG-1 is bound to repeat the time trip in order to keep the loop running! No more adventures in the future, back to work, back to 3000 BC! That's why Madeleine brought up the "funny little bubble of weirdness that floated into our continuum"; deus ex machina was the only way to explain the conclusion of the episode.

I can't agree with the second approach, either. The present is an outcome of the past. There was a rebellion in ancient Egypt, driving out the evil Ra, making our present to happen. But the rebellion was started by one Daniel Jackson who hadn't been born in the ancient Egypt but rather materialised in the air sometimes about 3000 BC! Are we supposed to settle for the idea this man just came out of nowhere? Because that's a consequence of maintaing the one and only timeline (being ocassionally overriden).

What's left to say. The only solution is the first approach. If we want to have travelling into the past we have to recognize multiple timelines. Each time someone travels back in time he creates a new timeline with a new, detectable point of temporal change. Talking about the current timeline in the show, there are at least two points of temporal change - when the "original" SG-1 arrived at Giza 3000 BC and when the geek SG-1 arrived at Giza five years later. See picture:
http://img188.exs.cx/img188/1333/timeline5nq.png
Notice one thing. The first timeline is the "original"; there's a good reason for the quotes. It's not the original timeline. Already the first timeline contains several known points of temporal change - see episode "It's Good To Be King" and Atlantis episode "Before I Sleep". There may be thousands of such points. The funny thing is there's no way to trace down the original, and I mean the original timeline. On the other hand, the current timeline is by no means safe from being replaced by another timeline in the future, should some smartass travel back in time again.
A difficulty of the multiple timeline concept is the order of the timelines. The timelines are ordered, one timeline happens before another! We have to suppose there's a second dimension of time, or a meta-time, allowing the timeline switches to take place.

hermajesty
February 25th, 2005, 12:28 PM
Thats a very nice diagram Ra, and a thoughtful explanation, but there's one thing i don't understand. How come original Daniel ends up in the second and third timelines? It's as if the second timeline splits at the point where geeky Sam and co arrive in ancient egypt - in one universe Daniel sparks the rebellion and the stargate gets taken away, in the other they manage to save the gate and bury it. So are there two Daniels?

Also, what happens to all the people in timelines one and two - do they continue to exist? If so, then the original Hammond, Thor etc are all still living, but SG-1 just vanished out of their lives to go to another timeline. And the people in timeline two are still gonna get attacked by Goualds, but geeky Sam, Daniel, Jack and Teal'c have all disappeared forever. Or do the people cease to exist when the timeline is overwritten?

WormholeAlien
February 25th, 2005, 12:49 PM
I know the red one is central line, and one of the gray ones is the Jubilee line, but which one? And how do I get to Abydos station? :confused:


Sorry. Just kidding. :p

Frostfox
February 25th, 2005, 01:55 PM
I know the red one is central line, and one of the gray ones is the Jubilee line, but which one? And how do I get to Abydos station? :confused:


Sorry. Just kidding. :p

Mornington Crescent!

WormholeAlien
February 25th, 2005, 04:03 PM
The next station is Mornington Cresent. Alight here for stargate to Abydos! :)

KatG
February 25th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Not too terribly impressed with this one. It was okay, I didn't hate it, it just seemed to be missing something. And as a season ender, it fell kind of flat. Glad to see that at least we're back at the end of Threads and Sam and Jack get to go fishing, but I would have been quite happy if Threads had ended the season and the series.

Over all, while there have been some very good episodes, there have been a lot of so-so episodes, leaving S8 as my least liked season.

lsd
February 25th, 2005, 06:59 PM
ummm about the fish did u guys SEE the fish??¿¿¿¿ because I cant tell (my t.v. has bad quality) because if u didn’t see the fish jack could just be kidding to try to cover up the fact that there are no fish (I like it when there are no fish hehe~~)

can some 1 answer that i have to quote myself :p

cybersyd
February 26th, 2005, 01:03 AM
Thats a very nice diagram Ra, and a thoughtful explanation, but there's one thing i don't understand. How come original Daniel ends up in the second and third timelines? It's as if the second timeline splits at the point where geeky Sam and co arrive in ancient egypt - in one universe Daniel sparks the rebellion and the stargate gets taken away, in the other they manage to save the gate and bury it. So are there two Daniels?

Yes. The third timeline exists because of the actions of geeky-SG-1 in the second. They create the third universe at the point at which they re-enter time - and since they arrive back in Ancient Egypt after original SG-1 did, there will be a Daniel there to greet the.



Also, what happens to all the people in timelines one and two - do they continue to exist? If so, then the original Hammond, Thor etc are all still living, but SG-1 just vanished out of their lives to go to another timeline. And the people in timeline two are still gonna get attacked by Goualds, but geeky Sam, Daniel, Jack and Teal'c have all disappeared forever. Or do the people cease to exist when the timeline is overwritten?

They all continue to exist! So in timeline one everything continues except that SG-1 have disappeared out of it, in timeline two everything continues, Earth gets attacked by Apophis but geeky SG-1 have disappeared, and timeline three is the timeline we're left watching at the end.

(forgive me if I get something wrong, Ra explains it fantastically well)

This does mean there should be three Jumpers floating about in the third timeline. Ooh... nifty.

Oh... and didn't they close Mornington Crescent? LOL.

lordvader
February 26th, 2005, 01:13 AM
Here's a drawing :D

http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~lordvader/images/moebius.jpg

Clearly, there are now three universes. Of course, the "original timeline" no longer has an SG1, the "alternate timeline" is missing a few geeks, and the "close enough" timeline has an SG1, plus the remains of 2 Daniel Jackons.

.Ra.
February 26th, 2005, 02:26 AM
Also, what happens to all the people in timelines one and two - do they continue to exist? If so, then the original Hammond, Thor etc are all still living, but SG-1 just vanished out of their lives to go to another timeline. And the people in timeline two are still gonna get attacked by Goualds, but geeky Sam, Daniel, Jack and Teal'c have all disappeared forever. Or do the people cease to exist when the timeline is overwritten?
That's a very good question! I must admit you took me by surprise at first. Thinking about it, I am more and more inclined to the second point of view, i.e. a timeline ceases to exist the moment someone travels back in time. Hence a revised picture:
http://img134.exs.cx/img134/6525/time2hl.png
Here's the reason why I think this way. If the original timeline continues to exist whether someone travels back in time or not, there's no point in sending the traveller. The traveller just disappers and Earth is going to be destroyed by the Goa'uld anyway.
Now this is my idea: sending a traveller back in time is in fact a desperate attempt to stop the current timeline (because it's all going wrong) and initiate a more fortunate one. It's actually a suicidal act; of the people from the current timeline only the traveller is going to live (in the alternate timeline). Of course, there are going to live our alter egos in the future of the new timeline, but that won't be us. That's why I think the team at the end of Moebius is a new team, although very similar to the team we used to know for years.

lordvader
February 26th, 2005, 02:35 AM
My picture was more "old school" :D

TheObiJuan
February 26th, 2005, 03:56 AM
Desperate as I was to see these 2 episodes I did what I had to do to see them. :D
I wish everyone worldwide would see it at the same time, if not even the same week.

This was a clever way at transitioning from the old stargate sg-1 to the new sg-1 show sans RDA. The writiting and cinematography was incredible. I believe that AT was a little overboard with her nerdyness, the sleeve grabbing was getting a bit old, however, she pulled it off well.

I had to pause the show when I saw jack making the implication that MS was gay. LOL
I would have loved to see the team in egypt after 10 years living with the locals. Knowing the battery would be a problem, they could have braught many and some type hand cranked batery charger to record in yearly intervals. This would have been great. And also seeing the rebelion take place with Ra leaving. (Time constraints and budgets are a fans enemy!)

I hope season 9 can match the dynamic that this cast had. It has been a great 8 seasons for me, and I hope the show continues with more witty humor, excellent acting, and high calibur directing. This show will be a legend, unless subsequent seasons become like andromeda bc of budgets and writing...(prays to all listening gods)

p.s. The kissing scene was amazing. The sparks in the background was a nice touch. I would have prefered to see the first consensual kiss be more romantic, but hey, its Jack O'niell for crying out loud!
:)

this episode gets: http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gifhttp://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif

Major Clanger
February 26th, 2005, 06:11 AM
To those who said this episode feels rushed: I totally agree. However, keep in mind the past two seasons were made with the knowledge that there might not be a next season... so they wrote all of the season finales as if they were series finales as well. In previous seasons (1-5, maybe 6?) all of the finales were cliffhangers to be resolved in the next season.

(just picked an almost random post to answer before I let you know what I thought about the ep...)

I wish people would stop excusing bad and sloppy and lazy writing by saying things like this. They are professional writers, and whether or not it was the last ep or not it should have had as much care as any other Stargate ep. This goes for all the other seasons which "might have been the last".

Frankly, and I think anyone who knows me will not be surprised by this, I was not only seriously disappointed by this ep, I was flabbergasted by some of it. So much so that I seriously doubt if I will even give it a second chance. Why should I waste another hour of my time on it.

In general I don't like time-travel and/or AU eps. I usually make an exception for Stargate because in the past the writers have managed to give that peculiar and particularly good Stargate spin on the Sci-fi standard plots. More power to their elbows.

This one seemed to have been written by a particularly extra shippy-sixth former who is not as advanced for her age as she might be.

Generally women in their late 30s/early 40s do not wonder if they will ever get a boyfriend. Well they may wonder, but generally they do not articulate this wonder.

Sam's tic-like movement annoyed me in Pt 1, in Pt 2 I was almost jumping at the TV trying to slap it out of her.

And what was all that "you're so hot" "I fancy Daniel" - "to heck with it let's snog anyway"? That Sam might have been a desperate clingy nerd but that Jack was still a Colonel in the AirForce. That was the single most unprofessional thing I have seen him do since he didn't wear a h*t in The Ep Which Must Not Be Named.

Golly I'd rather sit through 24 hours of that ep than go anywhere near either of the Moebius parts again.

I will only watch S9 to see how much lower the bar can go, and to get an eyeful of Ben Browder onscreen with Michael Shanks. And for no other reason.

Sorely sorely disappointed and sad. But there it is.My love affair with Stargate is over,and I suppose I'll just have to be happy that we have such excellent eps from Sesons 1-7 to look at, and Atlantis.

Metarock Sam
February 26th, 2005, 06:21 AM
After rewatching this epside 2 moer times
I have changed my mind about the epi spde
Even though this episode is good and I admit it. Instead however I would say it would have been better as a 3 part episode instea of a good 1st part and a great but rushed second part.
It gets a lower 7/10.

Whistler
February 26th, 2005, 06:26 AM
Anyone notice that whilst SG-1 are looking at the message at the end of part 2, Jack has a doughnut by his side, I think it was designed to tie into this (the original scripted video scene) (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=351496#post351496). Pitty they cut it out, it would have been great! :D

Tok'Ra Hostess
February 26th, 2005, 07:11 AM
Anyone notice that whilst SG-1 are looking at the message at the end of part 2, Jack has a doughnut by his side, I think it was designed to tie into this (the original scripted video scene) (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=351496#post351496). Pitty they cut it out, it would have been great! :D

ROTFL! Yup, that would've been great! :p

Tok'Ra Hostess
February 26th, 2005, 07:28 AM
Generally women in their late 30s/early 40s do not wonder if they will ever get a boyfriend. Well they may wonder, but generally they do not articulate this wonder.


<shrugs> Maybe alt timeline women are more articulate about their insecurities.... :)


Sam's tic-like movement annoyed me in Pt 1, in Pt 2 I was almost jumping at the TV trying to slap it out of her.

The tics were somewhat irritating, but I thought, AT was a bit inconsistant. I'd have expected such an insecure person to react a little more hysterically to the point blank shotting of her "boyfriend" by an alien - at least as much as she did when Jack hit on her. And MC, I am surprised that you aren't jumping all over the fact that nerdy, "I don't like guns," Carter was holding her handgun like a seasoned user. :D


And what was all that "you're so hot" "I fancy Daniel" - "to heck with it let's snog anyway"? That Sam might have been a desperate clingy nerd but that Jack was still a Colonel in the AirForce. That was the single most unprofessional thing I have seen him do since he didn't wear a h*t in The Ep Which Must Not Be Named.

Well, that I rationalize away with a wave my magic AU wand, :p and the fact that, on the way to the puddle jum... ahem... Gateship;) Sam tells Jack that they've got to spend the rest of their lives in the past and she wonders whether or not her alternate self has a boyfriend. Jack saw his opportunity, and embraced retirement again.

Madeleine
February 26th, 2005, 07:42 AM
It doesn't stand up well to a second watching. First time around I found it tp be pretty pacy, and I was so enjoying Apophis' return, so the suspension of disbelief was nice and easy. Second time around I couldn't ignore all the plotholes.

I think it was a mistake to end it with implications that this was not the same (ie) 'real' SG-1 that we'd been with for the last eight years. Did they *have* to bring the loop to a close before a previously shown event?I can still watch it so that with a large dose of Projection and some vigorous Fanwanking it *is* still our SG-1, but I rather resent the fact that I have to do that at all.

Alt Daniel was good for as long as he lasted. Alt Sam was well acted but irritating. Alt Jack was a total eejit. Snogging on the job is one thing, but snogging in the middle of an actual military maneouvre? Total eejit. Alt Teal'c was fantastic though. I think his part wasn't very well written (his defection was written even more rushed and unlikely than in CotG) but CJ's acting was really top notch and made Alt Teal'c very believable.

Other than Teal'c though there wasn't anything about this ep that was as good the second time as the first. The s1, s4 and s7 finales keep their gloss after many many viewings :s

Elite Anubis Guard
February 26th, 2005, 07:54 AM
yeh i really agree, it was an interesting idea too rushed, they shoulda done a 3 parter and i really wish theyd have put some emotion into part 2, especcially with kawalsky!

Ali888
February 26th, 2005, 08:45 AM
The next station is Mornington Cresent. Alight here for stargate to Abydos! :)

Except for Bank Holidays, when the station is closed.

Ali888
February 26th, 2005, 08:50 AM
I had to pause the show when I saw jack making the implication that MS was gay. LOL

http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif[/img]http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/icon14.gif

I assume you mean that Jack was making the implication that Daniel was gay?

Ali P

KatG
February 26th, 2005, 09:16 AM
It doesn't stand up well to a second watching....

Other than Teal'c though there wasn't anything about this ep that was as good the second time as the first.

Well darn. I was hoping if I watched it again, that maybe it would be better.

Madeleine
February 26th, 2005, 10:10 AM
Naaaah. Watch Exodus or Serpent's lair again instead.

TheObiJuan
February 26th, 2005, 10:53 AM
yeah Daniel. MS is hopefully not gay. :D

Elite Anubis Guard
February 26th, 2005, 11:05 AM
i was pissin myself wen they where talkin bout that!

keshou
February 26th, 2005, 12:31 PM
Finally got to see Moebius I & II after being spoiled rotten for the episode.

Actually it was a lot more fun than I'd expected although there were plenty of things that still made me go - huh? A lot of it just seemed like the writers wanted to end the series with a fun time-travel episode and they just found an excuse to do one. The characters seemed to throw all good sense out the window at times but I just decided to sit back and enjoy the ride.

The fact that it was still fun to watch was due in large part to the work of the regular actors. AT and MS as geeky Sam and Daniel were great. They seemed like they were having a ball in their scenes together and it showed on-screen. I didn't even think the wig was that bad after I had a few scenes to get used to it. Have no idea why Sam ended up with so little self-esteem, facial tics and bad eyesite but what the heck. There were some very cute scenes as the geeky ones bonded, went to visit fisherman Jack, etc. RDA also looked like he was having fun in this one and seemed a lot more energized playing AUJack as well as RealJack. He certainly looked great - loved the "I'm King of The World" moment when he took off on his boat. Teal'c didn't have much to do but when he did - CJ was his usual magnificent self.

My main problem with the episode - other than some of the plot contrivances - was that the pacing was erratic and it just felt a little flat at moments when it should have been more dramatic. Seeing the ancient Egyptians come over the dunes at the end should have been a wonderful dramatic throwback to the movie and it just didn't quite get there.

There also just seemed to be things thrown in for fandom that left me wondering if the writers were trying to throw all the different factions a bone or trying to yank their chains. I really couldn't tell. Some of it was fun and some of it left me scratching my head. I thought the whole thing with geeky Sam and Jack getting jiggy in the PJ was kind of silly but I've finally decided they were just playing it for laughs. :)

At the end I was left thinking original Daniel and the AU versions of Sam, Jack and Teal'c lived out their lives in Ancient Egypt. SG-1 at the cabin (with the fish!) are still our team for all intents and purposes but they're not the versions of the gang we've been watching for 8 years and there could be other subtle differences in the timeline. Maybe I'll read back thru this thread and convince myself otherwise. I hope so cause that makes me kind of sad.

So Moebius had some fun moments. But it just left me feeling like I wanted Filet Mignon and had to settle for a really good hamburger. I think it will be one I rewatch just because there was some really cute stuff. Just a few too many WTF? moments to call it a homerun.

ETA: I agree with others that I might have appreciated Moebius a lot more if it hadn't been the season finale and possibly Jack's last episode with SG-1. Reckoning II stands as the best episode of the season, imo.

Major Clanger
February 26th, 2005, 12:34 PM
<shrugs> And MC, I am surprised that you aren't jumping all over the fact that nerdy, "I don't like guns," Carter was holding her handgun like a seasoned user. :D

oh man.... don't get me started on the weapons. (although I did love the way AU Daniel was very useless with with the handgun, just like... ah, which one was it? Into the fire?

I'd rather pretend that Moebius was just a nightmare I had that a tv programme I really liked had gone down the toilet.

I'm going to wake up soon, it will be Tuesday, and it will be just time for S8 of Stargate to start. And it is going to be good, rather than the pile of doggy doo doo I just sat through. And recorded.

Oh poop.

I'm going down the pub.

(little voice from upstairs) "Don't go down the pub again, mummy"

ElanaM
February 26th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Not sure I liked it as a season finale (and potentially the last time we see Jack O'Neill).

Some thoughts:
- sense of predestination in terms of the Stargate ultimately being found and the four individuals becoming involved.
- the final timeline is the real timeline and the one we have always known (except for the slight alteration to the end of Threads fishing scene). Our timeline is created by prior events.
- Jack and Sam are a couple in all timelines/universes
- the Sam/Jack/Teal'c/Daniel in the alternate timelines are still essentially the same people despite not quite taking the right path. Sam especially grows as the episode continues.
- finding the Stargate at Giza is the pivotal event which creates the team we know, so Ra taking it does not really change anything up to the 1920's.
- the kissing between AU Jack and AU Sam is gratuitous as it is not really our team and timeline. It looks like a quick fumble in the back seat of a PJ.
- very little understanding as to why Sam did not join the Airforce. In the 'real' timeline, she joined, in part, because of her father. The Gate at Giza has nothing to do with her or Jacob, so she should still have been in the Airforce or possibly at NASA
- despite the endings of Threads and Moebius, there has been little resolution of the Sam/Jack storyline. We are led to believe that they have somehow reached a new understanding - but what is it? His packing comment suggests more than just 'fishing' (with Daniel and Teal'c arriving after Sam and Jack) as does her look of almost aprehension.

DarkQuee1
February 26th, 2005, 02:47 PM
[QUOTE=Agent_Dark
With the AU Carter admitting she like Daniel, [/QUOTE]


Actually, she didn't. What she admitted, two minutes later after jumping Jack, was that she lied.


J.

cobraR478
February 27th, 2005, 10:39 PM
This episode seems to be the Grandfather Paradox meets the Heisenberg Principle.
If they go back in time and change something, they must forever go back in time to effect that change. If they die in the past they will not exist in that same future to benefit from the said change. They are creating an alternate universe not changing their universe. Therefore these people are not our SG-1. And I for one only care about our SG-1. I morn their passing.
You realize nobody actually knows how time travel actually works or if it is even possible and that this is a tv show with a big ring that can send you anywhere in the universe(where there is another gate) in a matter of moments.

Bobby\Jolinar
February 28th, 2005, 07:58 AM
I beg to differ. :D

Suebsg9
February 28th, 2005, 11:11 AM
As far as I'm concerned as soon as the altSG-1 went back to Egypt and fixed whatever, then the time-line went back to the way it was supposed to be with our orginal team fishing at the pond.

Dana Jeanne

that is what i want to believe deej! i could not handle that being a diff sg1!

thanks for the reassurance :)

sue

Ugly Pig
March 1st, 2005, 09:49 AM
Well, here I am, a week late. Maybe doing this for every episode this season was a goal a little too ambitious for someone as lazy as me, I don't know... Luckily, I won't have to worry about that anymore after this one. :D


PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
of 'Moebius Part 2'

It's kind of interesting to remember how many times I've seen some fan online put forth the "original" idea that SG-1 should go back in time and cause the rebellion against Ra. And how many times I've read other fans saying how stupid that idea was, that it wouldn't make sense and that it would be "too much" to have SG-1 involved in every major event in Stargate history. Fortunately, while 'Moebius' does touch on the idea, it doesn't really happen that way (although I'm sure that won't keep people from complaining).

The way it is told, the rebellion was supposed to happen as described in the writings found on Abydos, due in no way to any help from SG-1. In fact, SG-1 showing up and trying to take part in the uprising is what screws up the timeline in the first place! So in the end, while SG-1 do instigate a rebellion against Ra, they do so in place of the rebellion that would have already happened had they not interfered at all. And that's just fine with me, especially since we get such a fun time twisting adventure out of the whole thing.

Random Observations!
- "Gateship 1"... Heh heh heh. This would seem to indicate that McKay is the original inventor of that particular name. While he never took credit for it, he was involved with it in both timelines.
- I guess if SG-1 had not gone to Chulak eight years ago and met Teal'c, Apophis would have grown facial hair by now.
- At first I wondered why Bra'tac was nowhere to be seen, but it makes sense: Without Tretonin, he would have been dead by now. He was too old to receive a new symbiote years ago.
- I always wondered how in 'Children of the Gods', Kawalsky didn't know Jack had a son, while in 'The Enemy Within', he and Jack were old buddies and 'The Gamekeeper' shows that they knew each other all the way back in the early eighties. Well, if the alternate timeline is any indication, this makes sense - they'd served together before the Stargate program came about but it was "a long time ago". Guess they just fell out of touch in the meantime.
- The "Jack!"/"That's 'sir' to you!" exchange is the exact opposite of Jack's "I'm retired, Kawalsky/Carter, loose the salute/'sir'!" line.
- Alternate Jack goes, "Aw, sh---" instead of "Aw, crap!".
- Alternate Jack and alternate Sam get it on! Wow, TPTB really go all out to please the shippers this season don't they? You know, if original Jack and Sam had been as straight-forward a lot of fans would have been spared a lot of headache. :D The scene where alternate Sam claims to be attracted to Daniel, by the way, is hilareous. And alternate Jack thinks Daniel is "...nevermind". Heh heh heh...
- Once again, canon proof is provided that the series is taking place in close-to-real-time. Alternate SG-1 go back in time 5000 years and wind up in the year 2995 B.C.. Incidentally, it makes sense that they'd arrive five years after original SG-1. Original Jack decided on travelling back to the year 3000 B.C. rather than "5000 years ago".
- Jack's line in the script seen in the latest Lowdown which read "Me no speak Jaffa!", and that we see RDA deliver as "No habla Jaffa!" is reduced in the final product to a simple "What?".
- The final scene in ancient Egypt is very very similar to a scene in the original Stargate movie... Maybe this episode should have been the one to be named "Full Circle".
- Earth now has a ZPM! About dang time we got one of those.

The 'Moebius' two-parter could have functioned very well as the final episode of SG-1, and maybe it should have been. I know it ends the way I always hoped the series would end... All known threats to Earth are eliminated, and as of this episode SG-1 have acquired technology that should be able to protect Earth from any potential future attacks, thus having accomplished the goal for which the SGC was created to reach eight years ago. And yet, the status quo remains unaffected. SG-1 and Stargate Command remain intact, nothing has really changed. Well... nothing except for Jack's pond.


http://photobucket.com/albums/v413/uglypig/thumbsup.gif

jmac
March 5th, 2005, 01:46 PM
I just thought I'd throw in my two cents and say that although the plot was somewhat interesting I didn't particularly love Moebius.

I think that it should have aired before Reckoning. That way they could have ended the season with Threads, which I thought was just an awesome episode.

Perhaps it's my dislike of time traveling plotlines, but thats my opinion.

Daz
March 5th, 2005, 01:49 PM
I have expressed in other threads, but I despise, truly DESPISE this episode. Im gonna have to pretend it never existed or I don't think I'll ever watch the next season.

Cronus
March 5th, 2005, 01:54 PM
I think Moebius as an episode wasn't that bad. BUT Moebius as a season finale was shockingly poor, especially after such a good build up in Reckoning and Threads.

jmac
March 5th, 2005, 01:59 PM
I highly agree. After threads, I was expecting another wowzer episode.

It stinks that the last time we see RDA is in this, not some deep thought provoking episode.

Steam
March 5th, 2005, 02:14 PM
i thought it was ok but it was a bit ****e to be a series finale

Njord
March 10th, 2005, 06:42 PM
It seems nobody has commented on the last line also being a reference from "The Simpsons", from the same episode as Sam's in the first part, in fact.