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StayingOccupied
April 13th, 2009, 04:13 PM
It was great to see this so soon after BSG ended. The kids look younger then i'd expected them to be. A lot different then i thought it'd be. The tram crash was the ****. Loved the cylons. 1h 32 mins, so its like a movie.

Lord Balls
April 14th, 2009, 06:34 AM
Yeah man...I just finished watching it and man it blew my mind. I think it may be the first successful prequel in history. WOW! The Pre-Cylon model is worth watching everytime it's appearing on screen.

I'm definitely going to get it on dvd for the extras and commentary. I think as the series progresses we'll see Cavil at some point and the Final Five because there's no way this series is going to leave them behind.

kharn the betrayer
April 14th, 2009, 06:54 AM
copy/pasted from the other caprica thread with some slight modifications

I have to say the butler the greystones have is adorable to me for some reason and I want one~

also spoilers

wow didnt take long to see the first cylon centurion which was lulzy since it couldent aim worth a damn in that scene and Admiral Adama's 69 years old by the start of the series I thought he was a younger at the start of BSG(basically I thought he was as old as EJO)

while I think It started off slow it got alot better towards the end, the Cylon part was awesome expecially the by your command line, and damn did it get alot better at shooting.... we also find our where Cylons came to believe in a ''one true God''



great sound track as well plus the music became very galacticaish as well with the Drums and the Remix of ''wander my friends'' from Galactica near the end*makes note to buy soundtrack*

so Dvd here I come *hopes they dont release it with the S1 boxset like they did BSG* hopefully the series will have less teen drama though



I think as the series progresses we'll see Cavil at some point and the Final Five because there's no way this series is going to leave them behind.

unless they do a time jump of some kind(which i wouldent mind if done well) I dont see us seeing the final five or John since the show take place about 18 years before the end of the first cylon war

Lord Balls
April 14th, 2009, 10:44 AM
so Dvd here I come *hopes they dont release it with the S1 boxset like they did BSG* hopefully the series will have less teen drama though


The pilot is available for sale on Amazon and elsewhere right now if you pre-order it.



unless they do a time jump of some kind(which i wouldent mind if done well) I dont see us seeing the final five or John since the show take place about 18 years before the end of the first cylon war

Well they got four seasons or more to tell the stories in this prequel and it better move fast because I ain't going to stick around like Lost. But man seeing the Centurian was cool. I think there's going to be a Civil War within the Colonials and Centurians like the clones in Star Wars are meant to keep the peace or rather fight the war. I mean why else would someone built killer robots right?

kharn the betrayer
April 14th, 2009, 11:07 AM
The pilot is available for sale on Amazon and elsewhere right now if you pre-order it.


I know but im hoping they dont pull what they did with the BSG miniseries and end up putting as disk 1 on the Season 1 DvD set


Well they got four seasons or more to tell the stories in this prequel and it better move fast because I ain't going to stick around like Lost. But man seeing the Centurian was cool. I think there's going to be a Civil War within the Colonials and Centurians like the clones in Star Wars are meant to keep the peace or rather fight the war. I mean why else would someone built killer robots right?

I think it will be a few seasons before they try a time jump(assuming they do) though I wouldent mind seeing the first cylon war at all and any excuse to see Galen and Saul again would make me happy :3

Platschu
April 14th, 2009, 11:40 AM
I haven't seen this pilot, but I expected bigger hype from the fans. The quiet of the fandom is surprising. Was it bad or was it not enough good for you?

kharn the betrayer
April 14th, 2009, 11:49 AM
I haven't seen this pilot, but I expected bigger hype from the fans. The quiet of the fandom is surprising. Was it bad or was it not enough good for you?

I found it started out slow and the Teen Drama stuff didnt help but got significantly better towards the end with the more and more focus on the Adults and their plotlines

the first 5 min also shows more skin than Tricia Helfer did in BSG :E

Platschu
April 14th, 2009, 12:46 PM
But it seems the ordering of Caprica season 1 will be a total fiasco from SyFy, if it wasn't able to grab fans from this big fandom. OK, we are not a representative viewing, but I don't know how could they do it without airing of the pilot...

Nylon
April 14th, 2009, 09:29 PM
To be honest I'm a Battlestar fanboy so Caprica would have had to try pretty hard to be bad in my opinion. Saying that I'm not completely sold on the idea. I'm interested if they can flesh out a whole series about the cylon evolution (I know its never about the story but it still needs one) or will it have a much broader story.

MIZA
April 14th, 2009, 09:54 PM
so there is going to be a Caprica series?, i thought it was on hold that is great !!

kharn the betrayer
April 14th, 2009, 09:55 PM
so there is going to be a Caprica series?, i thought it was on hold that is great !!

eh yes it starts next year

s72450
April 15th, 2009, 03:29 AM
I am very confused with how the pilot has leaked and yet the fandom is quiet. I know alot of people are waiting until the official date to get the DVD, but still.

I personally thought the pilot was awesome, aside from a few bad CGI shots, the tram crash for one. I loved most of the CGI in BSG, but found it really took me out of the scene in Caprica.

I loved loved loved Zoe and Lacey. I'm very into this relationship and hope we see more. I really was expecting Zoe to show up as a skin job at some point. I was a bit dissapointed in that.

huntress
April 15th, 2009, 04:51 AM
My expectations for the show were not very high to begin with, because I just know that RTD won't be able to pull off another one like BSG in the foreseeable future. For those who expect Caprica to be like BSG should be prepared to be disappointed. If BSG has been an African lion then Caprica is an a African gazelle or elephant. It lives on the same continent but is a whole different animal. Both series play in the same universe and there are things we recognize from BSG as for example prototype Centurions, the pyramid game, octagonal paper and books, "frak" and "so say we all" but this is not about military or the survival of the human race. The shows sets up compelling questions (what makes us human, are we more then just the sum of our memory etc) but the problem with the questions are that they have been asked by scifi, religion and philosophy for a long time and "BSG" has also asked that question. I am not quite sure that the show is catered by the right network. Caprica is not about action. It is quieter, more subdued and it is talky. The journey of the characters are going is not going to be one like the people who searched for Earth but a journey in regards of their faith, their believes and their goals.I think the show has potential to be a really good drama show but it would fit better on HBO then on SciFi. The characters have to be fleshed out a lot more and the questions asked need to be a lot edgier. There is one thing I HAVE been asking myself though. Is Daniel Greystone by any chance THAT Daniel? I DID get a bit teary eyed when I heard the first few strains of the Adamas theme when Bill's dad told him that his name is not Adams but Adama.

Oh and on a sidenote: I was utterly amused by the fact that William B. Davis had a cameo and played the minister of defence. I haven't seen in any other role then as CSM before ^_^

Agent_Dark
April 15th, 2009, 05:13 AM
actually that was pretty good. The first centurion was pretty cool, though I was half expecting to hear teh 'duh duh duh da da ' of the Terminator theme on that final scene lol.

{mod snip}

Marianne_24
April 15th, 2009, 08:46 AM
I have to say the butler the greystones have is adorable to me for some reason and I want one~

also spoilers

wow didnt take long to see the first cylon centurion which was lulzy since it couldent aim worth a damn in that scene and Admiral Adama's 69 years old by the start of the series I thought he was a younger at the start of BSG(basically I thought he was as old as EJO)

while I think It started off slow it got alot better towards the end, the Cylon part was awesome expecially the by your command line, and damn did it get alot better at shooting.... we also find our where Cylons came to believe in a ''one true God''



great sound track as well plus the music became very galacticaish as well with the Drums and the Remix of ''wander my friends'' from Galactica near the end*makes note to buy soundtrack*

It was kinda cute, wasn't it? :D

More like 67 at the beginning of BSG...

Love the music. Very much!


The beginning was a bit, I dunno, it took some time for me to get into the story and characters, prolly because it wasn't quite what I expected although I didn't expect much besides that it would be different than BSG. But I think the second half was really good.

Darkside_Six
April 15th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Speaking as a complete BSG fan, I really liked this. I knew what to expect, a more drama/people oriented show as opposed to the action and survival stuff of BSG (nonetheless, I would've killed to see a battlestar in this pilot).

Interesting to see the amount of tech in this show- even though the show is nearly 60 years before BSG, the level of computer tech and the VR glasses seems much greater than what we saw in BSG.

And for the cylon? Lets see: we have a sentient robot with excellent combat skills as well as the personality of someone who believes in one god and thinks that Capricans are evil. What could possibly go wrong?

Splitsecond
April 15th, 2009, 11:54 AM
It explained a lot about why the Cylons did what they did and believed what they believed

s72450
April 15th, 2009, 02:00 PM
The technological advances didn't shock me too much because I'm sure they hit a huge level in technology before the first cylon war and I'm sure after that they tended to shy away from some of the technology. I'll fan wank that anyway.

I never considered Daniel Graystone to be "that" Daniel. Good question.

SoulReaver
April 15th, 2009, 06:26 PM
Bill Adama would be very proud of his name if he knew his dad got his law degree thanks to the mafia :/

I like the part where apparently you can reconstruct a person's memories (even their personality apparently) via what basically amounts to a "search engine" query http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/lol.gif


also - anyone else think Ben going terrorist was out of character ? (from the little we got to know of him)

SoulReaver
April 15th, 2009, 06:28 PM
btw could someone explain this : when the data on the MCP was corrupted how come Daniel could no longer access holo-Zoe from the original source ? (the holoband)
that's like saying that if you copy a CD then break the copy, then the original CD is broken too :tealcanime49:

the fifth man
April 15th, 2009, 06:34 PM
I certainly enjoyed it.

huntress
April 16th, 2009, 12:50 AM
btw could someone explain this : when the data on the MCP was corrupted how come Daniel could no longer access holo-Zoe from the original source ? (the holoband)
that's like saying that if you copy a CD then break the copy, then the original CD is broken too :tealcanime49:

If I understood it correctly then he didn't transfer a copy of Zoe but the original thing into the Cylon. Something happened during the upload and Daniel tried to reverse the data flow and save Zoe but when he went itno the simulation he had to find out that all of her was gone. He thought he lost her during a corrupt data transfer but it seems that the transfer actualy went well despite the hickup. This is at least how I saw it. We will see...in a year o_O

Splitsecond
April 16th, 2009, 01:44 AM
btw could someone explain this : when the data on the MCP was corrupted how come Daniel could no longer access holo-Zoe from the original source ? (the holoband)
that's like saying that if you copy a CD then break the copy, then the original CD is broken too :tealcanime49:

It would appear that he didn't copy her, he moved her, which is down right stupid. There's no way he could've written all the computer code required for all the holoband stuff without keeping back-ups. Undoubtedly something would have gone wrong with at least one computer during the development of it.

Marianne_24
April 16th, 2009, 02:24 AM
If I understood it correctly then he didn't transfer a copy of Zoe but the original thing into the Cylon. Something happened during the upload and Daniel tried to reverse the data flow and save Zoe but when he went itno the simulation he had to find out that all of her was gone. He thought he lost her during a corrupt data transfer but it seems that the transfer actualy went well despite the hickup. This is at least how I saw it. We will see...in a year o_O

That's how I understood that too although I was wondering why he would move her completely instead of copying it...I figured he thought since she was his "daughter" multiplying her consciousness was out of the question or something...

Positively Kanyon
April 16th, 2009, 03:21 AM
I actually enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the series in 2010... The only thing that really annoyed me was the 300Mb comment, which I thought was a bit lame (as others have previously stated.) You'd think a human brain would be a bit more complicated than that, and certainly more than 300Mb (Go watch Johnny Mnemonic)

I did like seeing a young Bill Adama, seeing where the hardass Admiral came from :p Seeing the way Joesph Adama carries himself, definitely influenced Bill Adama down the track, good job on the casting.

I loved all the BSG tie-ins (Right & wrong, one true god, the prototype Cylon)

SoulReaver
April 16th, 2009, 04:35 AM
If I understood it correctly then he didn't transfer a copy of Zoe but the original thing into the Cylon. you mean the original copy ?? that's what I meant (originally there was only one copy, that of the original ie. the original copy since the original was gone)

It would appear that he didn't copy her, he moved her, which is down right stupid. There's no way he could've written all the computer code required for all the holoband stuff without keeping back-ups. Undoubtedly something would have gone wrong with at least one computer during the development of it.that's also what I was inclined to believe at first but I dismissed it outright because not keeping the original as a backup woud presume a level of PIS beyond the worst I've known in sci-fi so far :/

That's how I understood that too although I was wondering why he would move her completely instead of copying it...I figured he thought since she was his "daughter" multiplying her consciousness was out of the question or something...doubtful - he himself said personality to him was nothing but data & a processor

Pharaoh Atem
April 16th, 2009, 05:38 AM
i didn't think it aired on tv yet i missed it :(

Ouroboros
April 16th, 2009, 06:27 AM
This was a lot better than I expected it to be. When I initially heard about Caprica and found out more about it's premise the first thing that came to mind was "why the hell don't they just do the lead up, events of, and eventualconclusion to first Cylon war?". The idea of a sci-fi "family drama" sounded baffeling and quite frankly boring but having actually seen it now it's managed to impress me. I had a few problems with some of the strictly technical aspects lke the lack of backup copies or original copies but I'm willing to let them pass for now.

Like it's predecessor this show is also likely going to be a sci-fi show that's taken more seriously by critics and audiences because it actually has some substance to it. I really liked the whole series of questions raised about what exactly it is that makes a person a person, is it just an accumulation of data recorded onto a brain chemically or something more, and if you could copy that data could you in effect recreate the person. I do hope they eventually do get into the other side of this as well though, namely what if there were backup/original copies. Some people would argue that this process is a path to effective immortality but how can that be true if the original data in the original human "brain" is either destroyed or simply copied and allowed to remain as an original. If for example you were an old man on his deathbed and they told you they were going to upload your mind into a new machine body, would you wake up in a nice new machine body, or would you die alone on the table while all your friends and family celebrated with the data copy in the machine body they now considered to be you.

Ian-S
April 16th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Maybe it's not possible to have a backup copy of the Aviator. On Terminator:SCC they were saying that by changing a wire on a fan they changed the character of the John Henry A.I., the Aviators are effectively A.I.'s so maybe it's something that can't be backed up in an effective form.

It would have been better for the story for them to have a throw away line about "the continuous data processing prevents us from making a backup so this is the only copy" but I'll forgive them, especially given the amount of flesh on show in the opening scene, bet that won't make it to TV ;)

Does anybody know if the music in the club scene at the beginning is a new track by Bear or is it something already available? It had a familiar non-BSG ring to it and I wouldn't mind getting hold of the track if it's available now.

Splitsecond
April 16th, 2009, 06:30 PM
Here's an interesting point. If he knows how to make AI copies of people, why doesn't he make a new one of his daughter. All you have to do is collect the results for a Google search.

bfldworker
April 16th, 2009, 07:10 PM
the first 5 min also shows more skin than Tricia Helfer did in BSG :E

This is very true. While on the subject of skin.....

I have to wonder how they are going to try to show this on Sci-fi (Oh sorry SyFy, stupid friggen name) with the amount of mammary shots as well as bare assets along with a VERY, VERY risque shot of a woman getting ready to go for a ride. Not to mention the "Human Sacrifice" that is shown along with the other violent parts in the very beginning of the show.....

I know they have Pixelation, but with the amount of skin being shows they might as well Pixelize the whole screen for the first minute or 2.

bfldworker
April 16th, 2009, 07:12 PM
I am very confused with how the pilot has leaked

It's a pretty easy guess how it leaked.

Video Rental stores like Blockbuster get movies weeks in advance so the employees can watch it and give suggestions.

The most logical reason is that a BSG fan works ata video rental place and ripped it from the DVD....

bfldworker
April 16th, 2009, 07:23 PM
I agree with the general census about it starting out slow, and being I am a butt man, I did like seeing the beginning. But There was A LOT of skin being shown, When I first started it I thought I got a Goth porn instead of Caprica.

This show EXPLAINS A LOT! It explains the Cylons Monotheism. The Daughter of the creator of the Cylons believed in a one true God, with out him knowing it she created a "Avatar" or a AI that was pretty much a digital copy of herself. He downloaded the AI of her to a AI CPU and put in it the Centurion, and at the end of the show she realizes what she is.

It also showed the absolute distane a lot of people on Caprica had for "off worlders", namly Turons. It was interesting to see that Caprica of 150062 years ago was more technologically advanced then of Caprica of 149995 years ago.

I also can see why the cylons rebelled against the humans, you stuff a AI into a warrior and it is forced to do your dirty work like kill other humans and robots against it's will. Yeah that sets it up to rebel and try to defeat the human race.

I can also see quite well the message that Ron Moore was trying to get across in the last episode of BSG. "Don't get too cocky of what you can create, treat life precious, and don't try to create life. Because you are not God. it also says to be Cherish the life you have, you may not have it tomorrow". And also "Just because Technology makes life easier, it doesn't make it right."

bfldworker
April 16th, 2009, 07:31 PM
There is also 3 additional things I liked about it.

1. When I first head that sound the cylons make with the eye start up, I got goose bumps, no where near as many as I did when I first heard Darth Vader start breathing in Revenge of the Sith.

2. It was interesting to see the Cylon use the eye in a directional manner, unlike the other series where they can see the entire front, it seems they they can control where the red eye can go, like if it is directional.

3. at 1 hour 24 minutes and 6 seconds into the movie, listen to the song. its a rift from the song from the Season 3 episode Exodus Part 1 (I belive). The Scene where Lee is getting ready to leave Galactica to back to Pegasus right before the Galactica launches the resque misssion. The song that plays in that Scene (Admiral and Commander) is part of the song in this part of the movie...

kharn the betrayer
April 17th, 2009, 12:12 PM
The song that plays in that Scene (Admiral and Commander) is part of the song in this part of the movie

to be honest I wouldent say it was the Admiral and the Commander but yet another new rendition of the ''Adama's Family theme'' since the beginning of the song is pretty damn different from the other renditions(like Wander my Friends/A Good Lighter ect ect)

Ian-S
April 17th, 2009, 05:31 PM
They will just cut the scene at the beginning and imply the stuff with sound, it's hardly a major plot device and unless like us you've seen the original you probably wouldn't even realise what's been cut.

lunarleviathan
April 17th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Excellent pilot!

I actually found the concept of a virtual reality where there were crowds of teenagers watching the human sacrifice of virgins to be quite shocking and disturbing. The group sex, fighting, shooting, drugs, etc was all believable though. I just couldn't quite bring myself to believe that so many people would be as evil as to find enjoyment from ritualistic sacrifice.

Loved the way they explained the monotheistic stuff and how it will ultimately make its way to being the Cylon belief system. The train bombing was surprising, but the bomb belt was cliché. Can't wait to see how deep rooted and far spread the religious descent runs on Caprica and the other colonies -- interesting stuff.

The Tauron gang stuff was excellent. Their execution style was brutal. Did they ever mention why they wanted the Defense Secretary warned/killed? Did I miss something?

Daniel Graystone is definitely not that Daniel. Daniel number 7 was an afterthought in BSG, long after Caprica had already conceived.

blitzsnake
April 18th, 2009, 05:20 AM
I was quite surprised by the amount of quality CGI in the pilot. I thought this would carry on the storytelling and character moments of BSG, but apparently the music and CGI made it aswell. ME LIKE!

AutumnDream
April 18th, 2009, 04:27 PM
Hmm. There is not really much of interest here. These things have been dealt with in more effective manners, and the characters are really not remarkable or interesting. From the first hour of BSG's miniseries I was fond of Gaius, Laura, Kara, Boomer, and so on. Really, none of these characters in Caprica are very striking. Joseph Adama's life is basically something you would see on any number of crime dramas, with the Mexican (oops, Tauron!!) crime syndicate sort of deal. Many of the sci-fi elements were kind of silly, like the "holoband" with its blinking little techno-lights.

I think Moore can do a lot better, and am sort of hoping he comes up with another show.

the fifth man
April 19th, 2009, 12:07 AM
I enjoyed this even more the second time around. And happily, my Dad enjoyed it too (his first time seeing it). I think this show has some definite promise. We'll see where it goes.

Pharaoh Atem
April 20th, 2009, 07:11 AM
i have a question is this from the pilot/?? i found it browsing

possible spoiler

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd55/vicmackey187/Picture4-1.png

could that be the first centurion

The Signal
April 20th, 2009, 07:39 AM
Perhaps not "the" but certainly one of, yes. Pilot's cracking, I've got a review elsewhere I'll post up asap.

the fifth man
April 20th, 2009, 06:39 PM
i have a question is this from the pilot/?? i found it browsing

possible spoiler

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd55/vicmackey187/Picture4-1.png

could that be the first centurion

That pic is from the end of the Pilot.

Pharaoh Atem
April 21st, 2009, 06:56 AM
That pic is from the end of the Pilot.

thank you :)

my dvd of caprica is coming today :)

the fifth man
April 21st, 2009, 07:33 PM
thank you :)

my dvd of caprica is coming today :)

I hope you enjoy it like I did.:)

knowles2
April 22nd, 2009, 05:47 AM
I have just watch some of caprica, just skip through for now will rewatch at a later date. It was alright but I really do not see where they going to get four seasons worth of story from, in fact I do not see more than five to six episodes or may be one season if they move us into the first cylon war era but four to fives season will make the entire series feel drag out, it was showing signs being drag out in the pilot, so it only going to get worst.

The opening scenes were awrsome and really show what would probably happen in such a virtual environment in real life, when they are built in the next 30 years, teenagers life will certainly be more interesting.

The whole transplanting conscious thing just opens up whole load of plot holes in Bsg, you know this one human scientist could figure it out and somehow and entire cylon civilisation cannot, I mean come on.
Then you got the changing control panels from english to caprica back to English back to caprice I mean comeon either leave it all in English meaning you have to make sure it all make sense with in the context of what is shown screen or keep it all in the alien language but make sure it the same through out the series, both requires work, the mixing the two up just makes them look lazy.


Why some of the shots and cgi was awesome, some were just terrible, especially the shooting range scene is one example of just terrible, the cylon waking up on the table was one example of brilliance. As for the skin shown at the beginning there know way to cut that out with out removing the feeling of how evil these people can be in a environment where they can get away with anything and do anything they want, stripping that from the opening sequence and strip away the essence of the struggle for the one true god and why in there view the religion needs changing.That what I got from watching about 20 minutes of it. S
o may be I just missed what going to make the grounder story and more in depth and give us seasons worth of story because at the moment I am not.

Sela
April 22nd, 2009, 05:04 PM
I just finished watching it the first time through and found it mildly interesting - until the last ten minutes.

Then I was hooked.

the fifth man
April 22nd, 2009, 06:10 PM
I just finished watching it the first time through and found it mildly interesting - until the last ten minutes.

Then I was hooked.

I'm sure the ending of the pilot will entice quite a few people on the fence about this show to give it a bit more of a chance.:)

huntress
April 26th, 2009, 12:45 AM
Hmm. There is not really much of interest here. These things have been dealt with in more effective manners, and the characters are really not remarkable or interesting. From the first hour of BSG's miniseries I was fond of Gaius, Laura, Kara, Boomer, and so on.

Can't say the same thing for me. I wasn't even really hooked after watching the mini series. Some characters like Laura or Saul got me more interested then others (I so didn't care for either Gaius or Kara )

A series needs time to start rolling. Some shows that started out overly strong (Lost and Heroes) lost their steam exteremly quickly so I don't mind a show that starts out slowly. Also you should give those writers a bit more credit.

MIZA
April 26th, 2009, 08:04 PM
well i have something to say about the pilot "AWESOME



that was great i loved it and can't wait to see more i am going to watch it again and again until the show comes on the air , wow it was amazing

AeronPeryton
April 27th, 2009, 03:07 AM
the characters are really not remarkable or interesting. From the first hour of BSG's miniseries I was fond of Gaius, Laura, Kara, Boomer, and so on.

Really? I locked onto Joseph, Lacy and Zoe pretty quick. Once it got to the end William and Danial also had my attention. I think the difference now is we're relying on Moore to create something almost from scratch, instead of playing off of decades of SciFi fandom. So far, I think he's doing a better job than you or me.

rockerlad
April 27th, 2009, 09:32 AM
well i didnt really expect much from this.............how wrong was I, great pilot and a good ending ,cant belive i have to wait until next year for the series.

valerius
November 21st, 2009, 06:23 AM
It's a pretty easy guess how it leaked.

Video Rental stores like Blockbuster get movies weeks in advance so the employees can watch it and give suggestions.

The most logical reason is that a BSG fan works ata video rental place and ripped it from the DVD.... I don't think it leaked. This was on purpose, no doubt about it.

Darren
December 14th, 2009, 01:16 PM
Here's our official thread for continuing discussion of the Caprica pilot:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=66026