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GateWorld
February 28th, 2009, 07:38 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/421.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">DAYBREAK, PART 3</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 421</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
A final jump for the Galactica takes the crew to their new home, where old friends and family say goodbye.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Espeon1962
March 20th, 2009, 07:55 PM
LOLl Loving the Jimmy Hendrix Ending, and pretty much everything prior to it!

This was a very satisfying conclusion. I believe they managed to tie up pretty much everything.

I also loved Ron's cameo at the very end with the angels of Baltar and Six.

kingzing
March 20th, 2009, 07:57 PM
HOLY CRAP...
That was an amazing episode!!!

What a great series, its a shame its over.

What an ending. I definitely did not see that coming.

I loved the ending with Gias and Caprica in front of the robotics

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Omg that was so amazing.

They managed to go from the most epic battle of the entire series to the end of their journey in 2 hours, and did it beautifully.

What a sad ending with Adama and Roslin, that was nice though with the cabin.

And what was the part with the Starbuck disappearing? What was she? I still didn't get that.

bfldworker
March 20th, 2009, 07:58 PM
That was so sad. Starbuck going bye bye and Laura dying next to Adama. I am actually in tears

tgmd
March 20th, 2009, 07:59 PM
What is starbuck?

She's an angel of god, they say it pretty clearly...

Mamid
March 20th, 2009, 08:00 PM
Starbuck was a construct of the Head Guys. Simple as that.

Did anyone notice that they showed the animatronic from Japan that looks almost human at the end? I cried out "Skinjob! OMYFrakkingGods! that's a Skinjob!"

Espeon1962
March 20th, 2009, 08:00 PM
What is starbuck?

She's an angel of god, they say it pretty clearly...

Agreed, she was the Angel who guided the flock to its rebirth. Almost makes a believer of me!

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Did anyone else absolutely love the part where the Centurions all start kicking the crap out of each other? That was so awesome.

I wonder where they would go with their base ship.

daniel9
March 20th, 2009, 08:06 PM
ron moore's cameo!!!!!

DeltaWhiskey
March 20th, 2009, 08:06 PM
Starbuck = Head!Starbuck...for everyone.

Was she always, or only post-"resurrection"?

................

Before it comes up, Adama's "One million light years" = hyperbole.

................

Interesting ending. I like where it went, for the most part. I think my favourite part was in Part II, tying the Opera House to Galactica.

Wow.

Sorry I didn't save any wine for anyone. *hic*

tgmd
March 20th, 2009, 08:07 PM
Absolutely brilliant!!!

My god, that was the best ending possible....

but wait wait wait... all the other survivors and their ancestors died? Only Hera's ancestor's survived?

Skydiver
March 20th, 2009, 08:09 PM
one of hte best series finales i've seen

the opera house 'remake' so to speak was chilling.

gotta admit, i did call some things. boomer dying, anders dying, helo killing tori...but it was good. very good.

Bruman
March 20th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Did anyone else absolutely love the part where the Centurions all start kicking the crap out of each other? That was so awesome.

I wonder where they would go with their base ship.


That part was neat. And it looks like the old-style centurions were pretty powerful. One of the old ones pushed one of the new ones back pretty far.

MrBojangles
March 20th, 2009, 08:10 PM
RDM.... you slick *******.... Well done and thank you.

Skydiver
March 20th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Absolutely brilliant!!!

My god, that was the best ending possible....

but wait wait wait... all the other survivors and their ancestors died? Only Hera's ancestor's survived?
no, they 'all' survived, so to speak.

i'm sure some died of disease or accidents. but hera's skeleton was the oldeset one they found. the others merged with the neanderthals and became the current human race.

they were responsible for the tech advancements that the neaderthals inexplicably made...like wheels and stuff like that

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Absolutely brilliant!!!

My god, that was the best ending possible....

but wait wait wait... all the other survivors and their ancestors died? Only Hera's ancestor's survived?

Hera must have been busy :P

Jeffer
March 20th, 2009, 08:11 PM
one of hte best series finales i've seen

the opera house 'remake' so to speak was chilling.

gotta admit, i did call some things. boomer dying, anders dying, helo killing tori...but it was good. very good.

helo killed boomer and Gaden killed Tori. Tori should have said that she killed her right after they were reviled to the fleet the secret was out

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:12 PM
so we're descended from the 12 colonies

cool

Bruman
March 20th, 2009, 08:12 PM
It wasn't quite as satisfying as I had hoped, but they did do a good job nonetheless. It is sad that it's over... presumably there could be something interesting about the fate of the centurions.

Yeah, the RDM cameo was pretty neat. He was reading National Geographic.

Did anyone else notice that Simon Cylon was there at Adama's polygraph test when he was asked "are you a cylon?"

BigGator5
March 20th, 2009, 08:12 PM
I take it all back (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=9705399#post9705399). I just now saw three hours of perfection (all three parts) and I cried.

"All this has happened before, all this will happen again." Indeed...

quade_1
March 20th, 2009, 08:13 PM
That was the most retarded ending. I think they dug themselves into too deep a hole and they did do the best they could. But when all is said and done, they didn't quite wrap it up well enough. They told the individual stories well but didn't quite address the overall picture. It's like they didn't feel like explaining Kara or didn't know how to so they just left it up to your imagination. Aswell as:

Who are the head people?
What are the head people?
Was Kara a head person?
Who is "God"?
What was so special about Hera?
How did Anders suddenly turn into a hybrid by getting shot in the head?
Do they create hybrids by shooting them in the back of the head?
Why were there old centurions?

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:13 PM
helo killed boomer and Gaden killed Tori. Tori should have said that she killed her right after they were reviled to the fleet the secret was out

Actually it was Athena that killed Boomer wasn't it?

Tori got what was coming to her.

pbellosom
March 20th, 2009, 08:14 PM
Utterly fracking brilliant. Though I annoyingly lost signal from the bit where HeadBaltar says that life would be less eventful to the part where it zooms out with awesome music on what I assume was Laura's grave. Did I miss anything there?

I'm still reeling from that final scene, never would have seen that being the ending yet it works so well. I didn't really understand HeadBaltar's "Silly me" though.

Why were so many of the centurians fought on the colony the old model?

TheChosen1
March 20th, 2009, 08:14 PM
WoW, what an amazingly done show. That was a frakkin' great show. Ended up Nicely done.


TheChosen1

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:15 PM
That was the most retarded ending. I think they dug themselves into too deep a hole and they did do the best they could. But when all is said and done, they didn't quite wrap it up well enough. They told the individual stories well but didn't quite address the overall picture. It's like they didn't feel like explaining Kara or didn't know how to so they just left it up to your imagination. Aswell as:

Who are the head people?
What are the head people?
Was Kara a head person?
Who is "God"?
What was so special about Hera?
How did Anders suddenly turn into a hybrid by getting shot in the head?
Do they create hybrids by shooting them in the back of the head?
Why were there old centurions?

Half of those were explained, and the other half are ridiculously easy to figure out.

The series tied up all of those questions, and the hazy parts aren't gaping plot holes, they're just open to speculation.

DetriusXii
March 20th, 2009, 08:15 PM
Well, there isn't going to be a man versus machine war any longer. When our earth humans enter the stars, we're going to be vastly outnumbered by a Centurion civilization, which has advanced technologies and the ability to reproduce themselves. The war is over. The Centurions won.

ToasterOnFire
March 20th, 2009, 08:15 PM
Oh, show.

That last twenty or so minutes just wrecked me.

Jeffer
March 20th, 2009, 08:16 PM
Actually it was Athena that killed Boomer wasn't it?

Tori got what was coming to her.
yeah your right Helo was holding hera and i agree about Tori

Specter177
March 20th, 2009, 08:16 PM
WHAT.
THE.
FRAK.

Seriously though, amazing episode. Ronald Moore definitely knows how to save the best for last. But what ever happened with Starbuck?

bfldworker
March 20th, 2009, 08:16 PM
150,000 years later??????? What the frak?

The funniest line was Cavel saying Oh Frak and blew his brains out. Classic Sarcastic humor.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:16 PM
I take it all back (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=9705399#post9705399). I just now saw three hours of perfection (all three parts) and I cried.

"All this has happened before, all this will happen again." Indeed...

no it won't not the way it's happen before

xsp1ffx
March 20th, 2009, 08:18 PM
What an amazing ending to a a great series. The best ending for a show that I've seen in a really long time. I was both equally shocked to see that some of us fans were right on the ball with somethings (Tyroll killing Torry, Athena killing Boomer) but it was the last half hour that blew me away. I really liked Starbuck saying that her journey was over and suddenly disappearing kind of left you wondering about her. I had known from some spoilers a few months ago that New York was the setting for the closing seen but I didn't expect to see RDM there.

pbellosom
March 20th, 2009, 08:18 PM
WHAT.
THE.
FRAK.

Seriously though, amazing episode. Roger Moore definitely knows how to save the best for last. But what ever happened with Starbuck?

I assumed she ascended (for lack of a proper word for the term with the BSGverse) and joined the HeadPeople/Angels

TheChosen1
March 20th, 2009, 08:18 PM
so we're descended from the 12 colonies

cool

You know, truth is stranger than fiction sometimes and sometimes fiction turns out to be truth. Just look up some fiction Jules Verne had written, and you'll see that just perhaps, your comment above isn't too far off in "some" respects.

Ponder that. :cool:


TheChosen1

quade_1
March 20th, 2009, 08:19 PM
You could assume that Kara was a head person, but people also assumed that she was a cylon. So until they say, we don't know.


I took that ending when Baltar said "silly me" as to say that HE is "god".


And that Cavil scene was the best part of the episode.

MrBojangles
March 20th, 2009, 08:19 PM
Truly the only show where I stood and applauded once it was over. Great job to all those involved with the show. Well done.

STC
March 20th, 2009, 08:19 PM
I'm sorry to say that after four years of frakkin' good writing, they totally fell apart! The first hour was spectacular, with great CGA, old Cylons fighting new Cylons, just a frakkin' good time, but then they completely fell apart!!

Who and what is Kara is never answered; they literally make her disappear with no explanation. What was the point of the Opera House?? And the last 5 minutes with Ron Moore doing a cameo walkon, and the silly little robots!! What a waste of time. It should have ended with the camera pulling back from Adama sitting on the cliff beside Laura's grave.

What was great was when both Six and Baltar realized they were both seeing each other in their heads!! That I totally did not expect. Plus Galen choking Tory......wowo!!

titans
March 20th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Kara died on the nuclear wasteland earth. She came back as an angel like Head Six and Baltar to lead humanity to the real earth. That simple.

Good job Ron Moore. Good frackin job!

DeltaWhiskey
March 20th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Tori got what was coming to her.

Oh! Frak yeah, I forgot. That was my favourite, too. Gods, I hated her, and was glad to see her neck snap.

Lucario
March 20th, 2009, 08:21 PM
What a great episode, great ending to the series, and RDM was correct, most of the things were wrapped up.

Although there is one thing I still not sure, just what was Starbuck.
An Angel of God (or gods) or ghost or what?

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Kara died on earth. She came back as an angel like Head Six and Baltar to lead humanity to earth. Taht simple.



and she lead humanity to the end of one life and into a new one.

a clean slate

thank you kara :)

quade_1
March 20th, 2009, 08:22 PM
Kara died on the nuclear wasteland earth. She came back as an angel like Head Six and Baltar to lead humanity to the real earth. That simple.

Good job Ron Moore. Good frackin job!

not necessarily that simple, how could everybody see a head person and how did she interact with things? i.e. fly a viper
Baltar's head Six could only cause him to do things and not interact with outside objects.

foxhound22
March 20th, 2009, 08:23 PM
WHAT.
THE.
FRAK.

Seriously though, amazing episode. Roger Moore definitely knows how to save the best for last. But what ever happened with Starbuck?

I didnt realize the guy that played James Bond was involved with Battlestar....... :lol:

SG1Commander
March 20th, 2009, 08:23 PM
150,000 Years Later!!! I always wondered whether BSG took place in our past or present. I guess now we know. That was the best series finale I've seen in years. Jumping from The Colony to in orbit of the Moon, that was great.

titans
March 20th, 2009, 08:24 PM
not necessarily that simple, how could everybody see a head person and how did she interact with things? i.e. fly a viper
Baltar's head Six could only cause him to do things and not interact with outside objects.

They were angels...they could do whatever they wanted...or at least thats good enough for me.

bmwadam
March 20th, 2009, 08:25 PM
I'm glad most people seemed to like it. I am very disappointed by the ending. A prehistoric earth where all of the humans (some 30 thousand of them) agree to abandon tech is unrealistic. Especially considering that cylons are still out in space. They got enough resurrection info to possibly rebuild it, we are not sure.


I initially thought about this ending at the very beginning of the show, but honestly the only worst ending would have been a modern day earth, like the terrible original show.

Earth needed to be discovered at some point in the future, way in the future. An earth that humanity was returning too, you know "all this has happened before" I could go on but why bother? Its over. But Im so bummed out on this Im not sure if I can even watch the prequel series, or anything else about it for that matter.

BigGator5
March 20th, 2009, 08:26 PM
no it won't not the way it's happen before
Maybe. But if can't treat each other right, what makes you think we can treat thinking machines right?

kharn the betrayer
March 20th, 2009, 08:26 PM
that was a sad ending expecially the part with Adama and Rosalin watching the animals and her dying :(

Tori got what coming to her woohoo!

lol at the Ron D Moore cameo

why did the ''Hera being so important'' get shoe horned into the last 5 seconds of the show... granted I can understand the fact she was the ''first modern human'' unless somehow the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_eve wasnt her

lol at Romo being president I would so vote for him

Galen runs off to I assume Scotland and becomes a hermit was kind of depressing but happy at the same time dew to the fact over the past year he has been screwed over hard and deserves a chance to settle down

also maybe im so used to the greys of the series but Earth looks so damn vibrant in contrast to the rest of the series


also Kara being the Angel of Death and leading into humanity....well it kind of was a death with the slate being made clean again and humanity becoming half human half cylons

Starsaber
March 20th, 2009, 08:27 PM
Who are the head people?
What are the head people?
Was Kara a head person?
Who is "God"?
What was so special about Hera?
How did Anders suddenly turn into a hybrid by getting shot in the head?
Do they create hybrids by shooting them in the back of the head?
Why were there old centurions?

1 & 2) Just what Head Six said in season 1, angels of god
3) Only after she died in season 3
4) That's more of a question to ask a priest
5) To put it in Stargate terms, think of Cylon blood as the Ancient gene. She was the first human/cylon hybrid, but there were enough skinjobs that went down to Earth that by the modern day, most humans would have at least some Cylon blood in them. Her remains were those that were discussed in the article RDM was reading.
6 & 7) The same way Athena hooked herself into Galactica's computer by driving a fiberoptic cable into her wrist in season 2.
8) "They still have their uses" - Six in the miniseries. What's the point in scrapping them? They may not be as good as the new centurions, but if they would be anywhere, they'd be at the Cylon homeworld (the Colony).

quade_1
March 20th, 2009, 08:27 PM
They were angels...they could do whatever they wanted...or at least thats good enough for me.

Was that also an angel Viper she brought back with her?? Still more questions, who sent the angels, who is this "god", and why wouldn't they explain the head people?

Sela
March 20th, 2009, 08:27 PM
I take back everything I said about the series back in the beginning and with humility kow tow to the BSG PTB.

You guys rock.

Espeon1962
March 20th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Some moments I liked:

When Boomer met up with Athena, and her homage to Adama that she owed him one, and had repaid the debt. She finally took responsibility for her actions. And her knowledge that she was going to die.

Everything in the first hour.

The irony of Racetrack's dead hand setting off the nukes.

Alan Wake
March 20th, 2009, 08:29 PM
Nothing really special about this final...

I've seen better.

Dawa
March 20th, 2009, 08:29 PM
They were angels...they could do whatever they wanted...or at least thats good enough for me.

Not good enough for me. They might as well arrived in the 1900s so I laugh my ass off.

Nightspore
March 20th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Half of those were explained, and the other half are ridiculously easy to figure out.

The series tied up all of those questions, and the hazy parts aren't gaping plot holes, they're just open to speculation.

Well, I admit I'm a bit slow here, so can you answer the questions 'cause I have the same questions. At the end when we saw Gaius and Six, where they real or what? How could Gaius be around 150,000 years later?

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Was that also an angel Viper she brought back with her?? Still more questions, who sent the angels, who is this "god", and why wouldn't they explain the head people?

You're being close-minded. If they were truly angels and omnipotent beings, I don't think it'd be overly hard for them to conjure up a Viper. If they can send back Kara as flesh and blood, I think they can make a Viper.

pbellosom
March 20th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Galen runs off to I assume Scotland and becomes a hermit was kind of depressing but happy at the same time dew to the fact over the past year he has been screwed over hard and deserves a chance to settle down

also maybe im so used to the greys of the series but Earth looks so damn vibrant in contrast to the rest of the series


Hmm and I thought I was the only one who instantly assumed it was Scotland.

Yeah I had that with the greys, looking back though even on Caprica the colours were greyer, I think our sun emits a brighter wavelength than the one the colonies were around.

Berg417448
March 20th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Well, I admit I'm a bit slow here, so can you answer the questions 'cause I have the same questions. At the end when we saw Gaius and Six, where they real or what? How could Gaius be around 150,000 years later?

That was Head Six and Head Baltar.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM
The irony of Racetrack's dead hand setting off the nukes.

i was just screaming jump jump jump!!!!!!

before bill told kara to do it

no way galactica would be able to handle that destruction

Chev's Ron
March 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM
Great Finalie! I was blown away by it all. Nice to see that everyone's roles were explained.

Favorite Moments: Just about the entire episode, but to name a few

Anders hooked up in CIC,
Tyrol Killing the frakker known as Tori,
Galactica Ramming the colony,
The centurions duking it out among themselves (nice to see the old ones also)
Six and Baltar seeing their angelic counterparts,
Watchtower being used as jump corrdinates,
Anders taking Galactica into the sun.
Anders knowing he will see Kara once she leaves lee's side on Our Earth.
Knowing that 150.000 years ago there was a Battlestar named Galactica.
Seeing RDM in NY. (Oh NY, I've never been to you, but everyone uses you in films)
Head Baltar and Head Six on Earth.
Knowing that the Centurions are still out there somewhere.
Roslin dying in the raptor, very heart wrenching.
Gauis using his fathers farming knowledge to make a home for him and caprica.
The final scenes where we are shown humanities building "cylons" of their own.

Not so favorite moments,

Roslin's Flashbacks
Very little possibility of anyone on our earth finding remains of ancient Colonial technology. (except for raptors)

That has to be it.

quade_1
March 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM
Nothing really special about this final...

I've seen better.


I agree


Starbuck and Hera were basically useless. Aside from Hera drawing the song notes and Starbuck typing them in. Which any of those final five could have and should have figured out.

MrBojangles
March 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM
That was Head Six and Head Baltar.

aka Angels of God.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:31 PM
aka Angels of God.

and god is whatever you want him to be

titans
March 20th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Was that also an angel Viper she brought back with her?? Still more questions, who sent the angels, who is this "god", and why wouldn't they explain the head people?

Like I said angels can do whatever they want...they're angels...as for "who is this god" thats for you to figure out on your own bubbles.

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:32 PM
Well, I admit I'm a bit slow here, so can you answer the questions 'cause I have the same questions. At the end when we saw Gaius and Six, where they real or what? How could Gaius be around 150,000 years later?

Those were the angels that Caprica and Baltar saw in their heads. Caprica and Baltar would have died like 149,950 years ago.

The way that you know they were the Head Six and Head Baltar (angels) is because they are talking about humanity on Kobol, the 12 colonies, old Earth and now new Earth. They are millions of years old.

And I'm pretty sure they could take form. You could see people looking at them and walking around them as they walked down the sidewalk.

Quinn Mallory
March 20th, 2009, 08:33 PM
It was mostly a satisfying ending (much to my relief...since this does influence the rewatchability of the show). I'm not sure how much I like the supernatural/god/whatever-it-is aspect of it but that part was clearly unavoidable (and fairly clearly going to have some important roles for years).

Some level of vagueness is the hallmark of all great work of arts (and part of the reason why I personally am not THAT into art). The whole Starbuck (so her father was Daniel? but even then how could the location of "Earth" be imprinted on Starbuck, Hera, etc.) question just adds to that.

Espeon1962
March 20th, 2009, 08:34 PM
And poor Gauis crushed at the end that he was going to have to go back to that which he hated and had done everything to escape (farming) but the joy that he was going to be doing it with the woman he loved. That was cool.

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 08:34 PM
I thought most things were answered pretty well. I guess Starbuck was an angel? Head 6 and head Baltar were God's representatives.

I really thought things were going to end darker thought. When Galatica jumped to the colony was was getting lit up, I figured it would just get blown to hell and there would be a few survivors and that was it.

Seems strange though that just Hera was the mother of all humans. 38000 humans and and unknown number of human Cylons should have been enough to repopulate the planet fairly easily. But it makes sense if she was the first of modern humans.

Overall though I'm pretty pleased with how it ended.

PG15
March 20th, 2009, 08:34 PM
Heh.

I made a conscious choice to finallly sit down and watch the series 10 weeks ago, wanting to know how it'll end. Up until 2 hours ago, I thought I might've wasted 9 of those weeks, because I was overall underwhelmed by what I saw; especially after all the good words I've heard about this show. Dammit, I could've used that time to get some schoolwork done!

Well, I think I can say with absolute certainty that that's crock. I am VERY glad I stuck to this, because that finale was

AWESOME.

After the tedium of most of Season 4.5, I knew they were setting up for a Grand Finale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandFinale), and boy I was on the mark. That was just an absolutely STUNNING episode, in many ways. I can only imagine the sheer emtions that are running through the diehard fans right now, since even I got a little misty during the scene when Roslin passed on (see, THAT's the kind of drama and tragedy I like; it's not overplayed, it wasn't forced; it felt REAL, as opposed to some of the other stuff in this series).

They obviously saved the CGI budget for this episode. As usual, there were times when I couldn't make out what the hell was going on, but overall it was just spectacular. There was something surreal seeing Galactica turning before jumping away; I may have only seen a bit of series, but that's the kind of "manuvering" that I never saw. The action sequences following the jump, as well as the ramming, completely blew me away. I was bouncing and waving my arms and shouting "**** yeah" (or some semblance thereof) throughout, so that probably means it was good. :D

Let's see, what else...oh, the flashbacks actually were relevant in this episode; I especially loved the one near the end of Anders going to his doom while his philosophy was being played over it. Very fitting, very cool. I suppose they needed the setup in the first episode to give these flashbacks more weight, so that's redeemed them in my eyes...mostly. Some of the flashbacks didn't feel like they fit the situation though (why is Roslin having a mid-life crisis important? Couldn't they show her doing something else?).

Why the frack did Cavil shoot himself? That was hilarious. Speaking of hilarious, I actually loved that it was a stray asteroid that managed to save Galactica at the end, by bumping into the dead raptor and causing Racetrack to fire all ordnance. It was like some kind of cosmic joke, but in a good way.

Overall, the first part built great atmosphere and was *****in' with the action sequences, as well as the tension that led up to the opera house "reveal" (still not sure what happened though).

Now, the second part, was just SWEET. I love it when a good plan comes together, and after the pieces came together for the operahouse, and All Along the Watch Tower started playing, I knew another plan was coming full circle. So Kara fulfilled her destiny, the song came back, and it led them to Earth. Again, incredible sequence, with Galactica breaking her back, and then, with smoke trailing, heading straight for Earth; it's something out of summer blockbusters (but with substance).

After that, it was just time to relax and enjoy the...daybreak. They arrive on Earth during prehistoric times, and it was as if the last chapter the viewers have all been waiting for, and pretty much guessed right, came together. Seeing the green fields, and the slightly uptick in mood in the characters, was something very welcoming after the depressingness of every other episode in the series. I knew Roslin's death was coming, but it seemed like it was just her time, so it didn't feel like an ultimate tragedy, though as I said, seeing Adama mourning her was still very emotional for me.

There were no ballistics, no breaking down; Adama knew it was coming as well, mourned her, and made peace with it; I think he made peace with it a long time ago.

All the little character touches at the end were very nice; for once, I wasn't even annoyed by the uttery sugeryness of Helo and Sharon's...relationship. Baltar became a man with a spine, and that was nice to see.

Kara fullfilled her destiny, and went with the wind. I knew that was coming as well, the moment she dropped out of frame as Lee talked about exploring. For once, a lack of a detailed explanation was...pretty good. They were angels, set from God (or someone); I suppose this is the one place they could not really explain, to keep the mystique, and that's fine with me.

And then the very end...I clapped. I knew they were going to jump ahead (thank you Michael Hinman), but I couldn't help but be amused at the small touches they added to it. First, Ron Moore appeared. Then, we find out that Hera is Mitochondrial Eve, and we are treated to the "new" All Along the Watchtower, as well as ROBOTS!!! OH ****!!

I liked that, after all the gloominess, and the philosophy that humans suck and are doomed to repeat the cycle of violence, they end on an optimstic note, saying that, perhaps our lot won't mess up again and continue the cycle; that we may actually rise above it all. That was the one piece missing from BSG all this time, the heart of every worthy story (IMHO), that humans have the chance at redemption, and ultimately, we will have it; and I'm glad they filled that in.

So yeah, brilliant episode. I'm glad I experienced it, and I'm glad Ron Moore and his team delivered, at the end. Definitely one of the best series finales I've seen, along with Avatar: The Last Airbender's (Sozin's Comet) and TNG's (All Good Things...).

Dawa
March 20th, 2009, 08:35 PM
It's a show people... The writers get payed for a reason. If I wanted to use my own imagination I could save some money! Instead you give them praise for giving us something we've had before and will have again and again.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:35 PM
And poor Gauis crushed at the end that he was going to have to go back to that which he hated and had done everything to escape (farming) but the joy that he was going to be doing it with the woman he loved. That was cool.

i think he was happy about the whole thing

that's how i took it :)

DetriusXii
March 20th, 2009, 08:35 PM
Knowing that the Centurions are still out there somewhere.


I'm pretty sure after 150,000 years, the Centurions are out there everywhere.

kharn the betrayer
March 20th, 2009, 08:37 PM
i think he was happy about the whole thing

that's how i took it :)

same here

that seemed like tears of Joy to me



also is it me or did the ending hint that Japans the reasons earths going to go get get destroyed :3

Vala_Hala
March 20th, 2009, 08:37 PM
God, that was just one of the most excellent endings to a series ever. Actually come to think of it, its about the only one that didn't disappoint in some way at all. I loved the way RDM wrapped up the opera house, totally didn't see that coming, thought it was just spot on. Loved that they managed to entwine the BSGverse with our current day mythos and history. Also liked that they left some things open to speculation - about the nature of God, the angels and Kara - just like Baltar said, sometimes you just have to take a 'leap of faith'. I'm usually one that likes things all wrapped up neatly with a bow and a full instruction manual, but in this case, thats a beautiful way to wrap up matters that really are about faith.

I also totally loved that the music played when they were showing the beauty of earth, was Pascagalia from Kobols Last Gleaming. That tune has always haunted me, and brought me to floods of tears.

So sad its over. But I think its going to be one of my all time favorite series to re-watch over and over.

So say we all...

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:38 PM
same here

that seemed like tears of Joy to me



also is it me or did the ending hint that Japans the reasons earths going to go get get destroyed :3

it was a refection on humanity in general i think

ToasterOnFire
March 20th, 2009, 08:38 PM
Ya know, I'm kinda iffy on the coda. It was really just a wink to the audience, but I think the better ending was panning out from Adama on the hill.

But wow, so many great scenes tonight. Lampkin as acting president with Hoshi as acting admiral, Galactica jumping close enough to spit on the colony, the reveal of the opera house scenes, Tyrol getting revenge for Cally, Cavil's "frak me" before blowing out his brains, Kara's FTL secret, Sam's last scene, Adama taking Roslin for that last flight (wept like a damn baby), Kara vanishing before Lee, Baltar weeping over being a farmer.

Thanks to TPTB, the actors, and everyone else involved for delivering such a satisfying show.

Briangate78
March 20th, 2009, 08:38 PM
Excellent finale, but it was waaaaaaaaaaay too long. SGA was too short and this one was too long. I am not happy about the Starbuck turnout. I think that was a cheesy way to end her character. What happened to Daniel? They should of never even mentioned that. Also, how did Starbuck know the notes to that song? How come she was called the halbringer of death? A lot of questions left unanswered, but overall an excellent Series finale.

kharn the betrayer
March 20th, 2009, 08:39 PM
it was a refection on humanity in general i think

but all the cute lil dancing robots where Japanese :3

kingzing
March 20th, 2009, 08:39 PM
You could assume that Kara was a head person, but people also assumed that she was a cylon. So until they say, we don't know.


I took that ending when Baltar said "silly me" as to say that HE is "god".


And that Cavil scene was the best part of the episode.

I agree, I took Baltar's words the same way. And the fact that he and Caprica are still alive in the future helps that theory. Oh, and Cavil's reaction was the best ever, I literally said "Oh FRAK!"

Dawa
March 20th, 2009, 08:40 PM
So basically replace the original series star ship people with angels+god? Series was good but not that great.

Quinn Mallory
March 20th, 2009, 08:41 PM
Seems strange though that just Hera was the mother of all humans.

Hera must have something in her blood that allows her offsprings to be fitter to survive. That's not out of the question.

Up until that point at the end, I was slightly annoyed by how unimportant Hera had become AFTER all that effort to rescue her.

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 08:41 PM
I agree, I took Baltar's words the same way. And the fact that he and Caprica are still alive in the future helps that theory. Oh, and Cavil's reaction was the best ever, I literally said "Oh FRAK!"

Baltar and Caprica weren't alive. Those were the angels that they saw in their heads.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:42 PM
but all the cute lil dancing robots where Japanese :3

humanity will always be driven to create advanced tech and artificial life no matter the circumstances

the fleet made a choice to not evolve with the tech their had.

and look what happen 150.000 years later

we're still creating artificial life

the fifth man
March 20th, 2009, 08:43 PM
Like I thought, this finale was bittersweet. It was an amazing 2+ hours of TV, but now that it is over, I am actually quite sad. I am glad so much was addressed though, and that things didn't seem too forced. Overall, this was an excellent way to end this wonderful show.

I for one salute BSG, and thank it and all those that made this show possible. It has been one hell of a ride.

langdonboom
March 20th, 2009, 08:46 PM
Loved it.

Tears at SEVERAL points flowed freely, and not the least of which was when Anders flew the fleet into the sun, accompanied by the Original Series theme... I thought that was really classy and really transcended the frame of the show to make the finale all the more satisfying in a multivalent way.

Loved Cavil TO DEATH.

And of course BLOWN AWAY (if it was a theory that was discussed) by the way Hera become mitocondrial eve and they start the human race.

I really hope we get it right this time.

There is a kind of unexplained leap in human development around 100,000 years ago - I love how they've used modern day science and theory to embellish the mythology of the show.

Man, I can't say enough about this show. Seriously the best sci-fi show ever and believe me, I'm a Star Trek and Stargate fan of the highest order. [o/t don't get me started on how that commercial for SGU makes it look to be a BSG grave-digger in style and theme, they only flash the gate for a second at the end? of course I'll check it out I have to but... yikes]

A few questions:

Does the genetic diversity of the colonists or cylons mean they all moved to the places on earth where those genetic traits are prevalant? I guess more likely not since human life/civilization is pretty certain to have evolved from Africa, where they landed, so only after many years did the differing genetic/environmental though perhaps so much was lost over 150,000 years we can never know exactly what happened.

ETA:

They also stayed true to one of the concepts of the original show as in the opening voice over -- LIFE HERE... STARTED OUT THERE

Loved it. Kara is the Angel 'of' Death (a dead angel). How about that?

Sela
March 20th, 2009, 08:46 PM
Ya know, I'm kinda iffy on the coda. It was really just a wink to the audience, but I think the better ending was panning out from Adama on the hill.
I have to agree with you on that. I understand the present day piece with Eve/Hera - that was cute, but they could have stopped there. Those last few lines...mmmm...

Still, I say again - they rocked.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:48 PM
so there are people walking around on earth with cylon blood in their veins

TheChosen1
March 20th, 2009, 08:49 PM
humanity will always be driven to create advanced tech and artificial life no matter the circumstances

the fleet made a choice to not evolve with the tech their had.

and look what happen 150.000 years later

we're still creating artificial life


The purpose of life is to live it and create it. We create our lives in various forms and our bodies are just mere extensions of our selves and the machines that we help to incorporate our activities and daily work. We humans live to create, we are always creating.

TheChosen1

pbellosom
March 20th, 2009, 08:52 PM
I'm pretty sure after 150,000 years, the Centurions are out there everywhere.

Unless of course they got cocky and tried to create their own artificial life...

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 08:56 PM
Unless of course they got cocky and tried to create their own artificial life...

or it could explain UFO's maybe the Centurions are checking up on earth.

and what about the rest of the human cylon models ????

there was more then what we saw in the fleet

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 08:57 PM
Hera must have something in her blood that allows her offsprings to be fitter to survive. That's not out of the question.

Up until that point at the end, I was slightly annoyed by how unimportant Hera had become AFTER all that effort to rescue her.

Well she is a half human/half cylon, so I would say she has something in her blood. She was the future of them all.

I guess in the context of her being the mitochondrial eve, that she was the oldest skeleton found with the specific Human/Cylon genetic markers. The humans that bred with Cylon's would have had the same off markers. Those markers are what made them modern humans.

PG15
March 20th, 2009, 09:01 PM
5) To put it in Stargate terms, think of Cylon blood as the Ancient gene. She was the first human/cylon hybrid, but there were enough skinjobs that went down to Earth that by the modern day, most humans would have at least some Cylon blood in them. Her remains were those that were discussed in the article RDM was reading.


And from the article, Ron Moore got the idea that, what if, this Mitochondrial Eve was actually a human from an older human race, who found Earth and settled there 150,000 years ago? And then he thought, hey, maybe I can make a story out of a group of humans who were forced from their original homeworld, and settled here eventually? And THEN he thought, hey, that sounds like Battlestar Galactica...I wonder if the SciFi network is looking to reboot series, because I have a great idea on how to make it different! I should so go and pitch them this, a new Battlestar Galactica! It'll be darker and edgier!

And a few months/a year later, the miniseries premiers...

All this has happened before, and will happen again. ;)

the fifth man
March 20th, 2009, 09:01 PM
so there are people walking around on earth with cylon blood in their veins

I hope I am one of them. Being partial Cylon would be sweet.:D

STC
March 20th, 2009, 09:01 PM
And poor Gauis crushed at the end that he was going to have to go back to that which he hated and had done everything to escape (farming) but the joy that he was going to be doing it with the woman he loved. That was cool.

Some irony in that isn't there? all that running away just to wind up exactly where he started.

kharn the betrayer
March 20th, 2009, 09:02 PM
I just remembered something

am I the only person not happy at the grand total of ONE SCENE Leoben got in this episode?

we havnt seen him since he ran off after seeing Starbucks body and he gets a grand total of ONE scene in the shows final episode and it wasnt even on Earth!

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:02 PM
I hope I am one of them. Being partial Cylon would be sweet.:D

your from a leoben

MartianManhunter
March 20th, 2009, 09:04 PM
The purpose of life is to live it and create it. We create our lives in various forms and our bodies are just mere extensions of our selves and the machines that we help to incorporate our activities and daily work. We humans live to create, we are always creating.

TheChosen1

Man. That was deep! But anymay, freaking amazing episode!!!!!!! Quite possibly the best series finale ive seen to date!!!:p

STC
March 20th, 2009, 09:04 PM
I just remembered something

am I the only person not happy at the grand total of ONE SCENE Leoben got in this episode?

we havnt seen him since he ran off after seeing Starbucks body and he gets a grand total of ONE scene in the shows final episode and it wasnt even on Earth!

When he came on screen, my first thought was : Where the hell have you been?? Now you show up??

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:05 PM
i also enjoyed the filming location for earth

it was a nice changed from being stuck in small ships to wide open Africa

langdonboom
March 20th, 2009, 09:05 PM
Some irony in that isn't there? all that running away just to wind up exactly where he started.

No I thought it was a release of all the shame he felt about being from 'farm people' and he's had to go through all of this insanity to be at peace with his origins, and he's finally there.

It was so moving that moment, when he said that, it broke me up right along with him.

kharn the betrayer
March 20th, 2009, 09:06 PM
When he came on screen, my first thought was : Where the hell have you been??

indeed

I wanted a Leoben/Kara scene

since for most of the series he harped on about her special destiny yet he says nothing to her in the final episode

the fifth man
March 20th, 2009, 09:08 PM
your from a leoben

I don't much mind that thought at all.

saxamoophone
March 20th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Wow, what a great ending. I don't even remember the last time I saw something that good on tv in a long, long, long time.

Was I the only one surprised to see Helo ALIVE at the end? Maybe I missed something, but I thought he died during the attack! Glad to see he made it to earth =).

In fact, I loved just about everything! Twas great to see everybody redeem themselves by the end of the series.

I had a good guess they would find Earth 2.0 by the end (well, either that or everyone died, haha), but I was surprised they were 150,000 years in the past!

And did Rosland really have to die? It was pretty obvious that Galactica was the "dying leader," not Rosland. So I was hoping to the end that she would somehow be "better" by the end. Oh well. I just felt awful for Adama. After all the stuff he had to put up with over the years, he deserved a happy ending with the one he loves.

Great ending though. Really made up for the disaster that was Season 3!

Sue_Jackson
March 20th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Holy.....frakkin'.....COW!!!! Glued to the TV the whole 2 hours!!! What a RUSH!!!!

Kara was an angel!!! :eek: The whole time! :thoranime09: Was totally taken by surprise with that one. I even cried when Lee let her go. Kinda bittersweet. :( So....everyone.....saw Kara as an angel? Or...was she just in Lee's head?

I cried also when Laura passed away. :(

So....they landed on prehistoric Earth....and created human civilization.

I'm glad to see Helo survived. :) I love to see him and Athena and Hera together as a family again. That was sweet. :)

Cried also when Kara said her goodbye to Sam. :(

And......Galactica DID go down in a blaze of glory into the sun. That was a nice touch.

Wow! I'm still just blown away. I think that was their best since the pilot. Great way to end a series. :)

KhaosNite13
March 20th, 2009, 09:12 PM
So sad its over. But I think its going to be one of my all time favorite series to re-watch over and over.

So say we all...

In a strange way, the series never ends. Yes no new episodes are made, but you just keep watching the series from Night 1 - Miniseries to Daybreak Pt3, and rinse and repeat...

"All this has happened before, and all of this will happen again."

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:13 PM
so in the kobal opera house that must have been the place where the 13 tribes decided to split ways and take a new path.

just like the cylons and humans did in the CIC

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 09:13 PM
I thought when Adama was taking Roslin into the rapter that he was going to jump away and fly into the sun or something with her, so he wouldn't have to live with out her.

Was a cool scene though of him leaving Galatica in the viper. A good fitting end to the old girl.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:14 PM
In a strange way, the series never ends. Yes no new episodes are made, but you just keep watching the series from Night 1 - Miniseries to Daybreak Pt3, and rinse and repeat...

"All this has happened before, and all of this will happen again."

the way i'm looking at it

where daybreak ends we begin. the series shows us how we came to be and we know our past now and we can't make the same mistakes again

hope that make sense

MrBojangles
March 20th, 2009, 09:16 PM
I don't know if I could re-watch the series again. Maybe the 2 hour show this fall: The Plan, but the entire series? Man that's just too much for me to handle. I couldn't get drawn back in now that I know whats going to happen. The thrill of watching BSG the first time when it aired was that edge of the seat suspense at parts, the raw emotion at other times, and the curve ball plot developments RDM threw at us. I loved every frakking second of the series.... from the mini-series to Six and Baltar walking down the sidewalk in NYC.

langdonboom
March 20th, 2009, 09:17 PM
so in the kobal opera house that must have been the place where the 13 tribes decided to split ways and take a new path.

just like the cylons and humans did in the CIC

i think this was more about the message from god via the angels... Visions of what was to come in each of the four participants lives.

I loved the idea that Galactica and the CIC were the Opera House. And really, that's another meta moment, as this is 'space opera' (Though RDM has said he wanted to take the opera out of space opera) and what was the name of the opera house? Battlestar Galactica.

Loved it. And can't wait for The Plan. I was actually thinking that they could do that right when they jumped into the colony and were getting pounded since I was curious what Cavil was thinking right at that moment. Awesome.

ETA: but you know what, I re-watched Kobol's Last Gleaming part 2 and it does occur to me that the opera house vision was triggered on Kobol when head six led him there... so I guess you're right!

saxamoophone
March 20th, 2009, 09:18 PM
I always think it's GREAT how the March Madness game on right now had one of the CBS talking heads say "Ron Moore, just threw up another 3!" haha. he sure did.

Bigcountry02
March 20th, 2009, 09:20 PM
Holy.....frakkin'.....COW!!!! Glued to the TV the whole 2 hours!!! What a RUSH!!!!

Kara was an angel!!! :eek: The whole time! :thoranime09: Was totally taken by surprise with that one. I even cried when Lee let her go. Kinda bittersweet. :( So....everyone.....saw Kara as an angel? Or...was she just in Lee's head?

I cried also when Laura passed away. :(

So....they landed on prehistoric Earth....and created human civilization.

I'm glad to see Helo survived. :) I love to see him and Athena and Hera together as a family again. That was sweet. :)

Cried also when Kara said her goodbye to Sam. :(

And......Galactica DID go down in a blaze of glory into the sun. That was a nice touch.

Wow! I'm still just blown away. I think that was their best since the pilot. Great way to end a series. :)

I never had the time to register and finally I did! Work and the majority of the first 3 and half was overseas in Germany. What kept me connected was iTunes until NBC disconnected.

I agree will you! Still sad to see the show sign off! :(

SO SAY WE ALL!

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:20 PM
i think this was more about the message from god via the angels... Visions of what was to come in each of the four participants lives.

I loved the idea that Galactica and the CIC were the Opera House. And really, that's another meta moment, as this is 'space opera' (Though RDM has said he wanted to take the opera out of space opera) and what was the name of the opera house? Battlestar Galactica.

Loved it. And can't wait for The Plan. I was actually thinking that they could do that right when they jumped into the colony and were getting pounded since I was curious what Cavil was thinking right at that moment. Awesome.
i would have loved to see cavils face when the flaeet jumped in

we;'ve destroyed the fuel mine in season 1

season 4 the hub

he must have thought the humans had lost it trying to attack the colony

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:22 PM
i also wouldn't be surprised if ron wins another Peabody award for daybreak

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 09:24 PM
i also wouldn't be surprised if ron wins another Peabody award for daybreak

I think a lot of people involved with BSG need to win a lot of awards!

kharn the betrayer
March 20th, 2009, 09:25 PM
seems there was a final episode interview people that hopefully explains a few things

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/

Shelly
March 20th, 2009, 09:25 PM
That was a wonderful roller coaster ride! A few things that I was happy to see:

Glad to have the questions about Starbuck finally answered. An angel!

And she wasn't the only angel. Although some of the suggestions that Head Six and Head Baltar had whispered into the corresponding ear weren't exactly heavenly in tone. :rolleyes:

That the Colonials ended up here on our Earth was a nice twist. But that they ended up in a beautiful place with not sign of Centurions (for at least 150,000 years) was one of my great hopes for the ending. They had all earned that clean slate.

Although I was sorry to see the damage done to Galactica in the final jump, it seemed so fitting that she would be sacrificed, along with the rest of the fleet to 'cover the tracks' of the Colonials. The old girl gave her all seeing her crew to a safe haven.

Over all, I thought it was a fitting ending to a satisfying series. I am sorry to see it over.

STC
March 20th, 2009, 09:28 PM
indeed

I wanted a Leoben/Kara scene

since for most of the series he harped on about her special destiny yet he says nothing to her in the final episode



EXACTLY! I thought he would have something to say on that subject, and I expected him to know or have some insight. It was just a red herring, or a loose end RDM forgot to tie up.

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 09:32 PM
55 members viewing and hardly any posting :(

langdonboom
March 20th, 2009, 09:35 PM
55 members viewing and hardly any posting :(

Guess there's a lot of reading to do first.

Archaeis
March 20th, 2009, 09:46 PM
There are secrets within eyes
answers within riddles.
Lay off the ACS
you betcha Galen
Open your mind and hear what your heart wants to deny.
End of line.

Best line in it.

Finger13
March 20th, 2009, 09:47 PM
There are secrets within eyes
answers within riddles.
Lay off the ACS
you betcha Galen
Open your mind and hear what your heart wants to deny.
End of line.

Best line in it.

I never caught that lol.

KnyghtMare
March 20th, 2009, 09:48 PM
I really liked the first 1hr. The part where the Opera House visions really started to tie in gave me shivers....

.... and then it fell apart.
The Earth switcharoo really annoys me.
Out of all the scifi options that RDM had in front of him he goes with Angels and Intelligent Design??
Starbuck just vanishes? Seriously?
Aparently Starbucks precious ultimate destiny was to enter some fraking jump coordintes? Seems like that could be done by somebody else! Frak, get Hera to do it!
Starbuck died to lead the Colonials to "Earth" and this "Earth" is discarded as a crappy plot device that drove the story for 3 fraking seasons?!
Hera, being all important, gets too little screentime and story devoted to her.
The Galactica sailing off into the sun? What a weak ending for the warship that should have gone out in a blaze of glory.

Whatever happened to Pythia? It seemed like a huge plot device early on and then all but vanished.
Why the hell did Roslin live so damned long anyway?

You couldn't convince me to get off those spaceships and go live with primitive man in a million years!

I knew the Angels were coming. The cycle of time etc. I can deal with and accept if it was presented a bit better.

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 09:49 PM
seems there was a final episode interview people that hopefully explains a few things

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/

That was a good Q&A article. Thanks for that.

Shan Bruce Lee
March 20th, 2009, 09:50 PM
All the action on the colony was the best part. It had some good stuff and then some bad stuff. I loved the 150,000 years ago twist. It was a nice nod to the original "life here began out there" line. And the stuff with the robots at the end was funny but also cheesy.

The way the Opera House/prophecy stuff was done was ridiculous. A bunch of people caught up in a battle running around chasing this little kid... I know it was an integral part of the overall plot, but that doesn't make it good.

The CGI was back and forth too. One minute you see this awesome shot of the Galactica slamming into the colony busting thru a wall in movie quality, the next minute there's a bunch of metal Cylons flopping around with the quality of Star Wars: Clone Wars.

The last 40 minutes perfectly sum up everything wrong with the series for me. It was slooooooowwwww. Way too slow. (and choppy) Daybreak pt 1-3 could've easily been cut down to Daybreak pt 1 & 2. (And the series as a whole to about 3 and 1/2 seasons)

KnyghtMare
March 20th, 2009, 09:51 PM
Such a bad episode

Bruman
March 20th, 2009, 10:02 PM
Yeah, they definitely underused Leoben, he just sort of disappeared into the mist.

They killed Racetrack, but at least she made it to the last episode.

Old style cylons were neat.

The way Doral just walked up and started shooting was quite something. One issue I had was that this was probably the first time that the bad-guy skinjobs had been in combat without the possibility or resurrection tech behind them. I would have thought that they might be a lot more scared about that and be at a disadvantage compared to trained and veteran marines and crew.

Amazing that Helo survived - it really looked like he was a goner. But hey, now they're right back to the way they were in Season one. Sharon walking around with Helo walking with a cane.

Can't understand Cavil's motivation for shooting himself.

Great to see Tori get what's coming to her.

Loved Cavil's comment to Simon about "stating the completely obvious... it fills me with confidnece." What a great critique of some of the science fiction cliches.

What the heck ever happened with Paula and Baltar's harem.... and what was the significance of arming them?

the fifth man
March 20th, 2009, 10:03 PM
seems there was a final episode interview people that hopefully explains a few things

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/sciencenotfiction/2009/03/20/battlestar-galactica-watched-the-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/

Thanks for posting that.:)

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 10:15 PM
One of the biggest surprise I think for me was what heroes that Caprica and Baltar ended up being. Not so much her but Baltar certainly. They who caused the annihilation of mankind, what an irony.

Baltar's speech in the CiC to Cavil explains a lot of what head baltar and 6 are and what God or Gods are. Forces of nature, meant to guide. They are neither good nor evil.

Shan Bruce Lee
March 20th, 2009, 10:23 PM
One of the biggest surprise I think for me was what heroes that Caprica and Baltar ended up being. Not so much her but Baltar certainly. They who caused the annihilation of mankind, what an irony.

Baltar's speech in the CiC to Cavil explains a lot of what head baltar and 6 are and what God or Gods are. Forces of nature, meant to guide. They are neither good nor evil.

I didn't really care for the religious aspect.

Am I the only one that thought the way the Baltar "angel" made that little remark about "it" not liking to be called "god" sounded like a Xenu reference? :( Secret Scientology ninja show

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 10:26 PM
I didn't really care for the religious aspect.

Am I the only one that thought the way the Baltar "angel" made that little remark about "it" not liking to be called "god" sounded like a Xenu reference? :( Secret Scientology ninja show

I don't think the it reference was about xenu. It was more that, what ever was guiding things wasn't a God in the sense of the Cylon God, the Lords of Kobol, God of the Bible. It just was, as Baltar described a force of nature.

Arative
March 20th, 2009, 10:40 PM
Watcher interview, always worth a read (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/03/battlestar-galactica-daybreak-finale-moore-mcdonnell-olmos.html#more)

PG15
March 20th, 2009, 10:43 PM
It's not so much religious as it is spiritual, I reckon. Though of course some may say they're the same things.

Anubis00
March 20th, 2009, 10:53 PM
What happened to the rebel cylons and their baseship?

bfldworker
March 20th, 2009, 11:36 PM
I have to be honest. I have seen a lot of series finales. But this one ranks up there.

Compared to the last 9 episodes, this one blew the roof off the second half of season 4.

I have to say the funniest part of the whole show was Cavel offing himself.

"Oh Frak!" Click

I was sadden to see the 'Big G' go away, I suppose that would have been the best way to avoid any contamination of the people on earth (Non-colonials and there off spring).

Seeing Roslin die absolutely killed me, and then seeing Bill Adama get upset and him putting his wedding band on her really pushed me over the edge, I am tearing up now.

The Battle between Galactica and the colony was absolutely stellar, the CGI was up there, it was funny seeing the Centurions (Old and new) duke it out like it was a giant version of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots, that was funny.

I was surprised to see Adama order Galactica to be rammed into the colony, and I am really surprised with all her structural damage that she didn't just blow apart when that happened.

It was sad to see Sam in his vegetative state all the way to the end.

Yeah Tory got what she deserved, but I would have liked to see the Cylons get Resurrection technology back.

Kara, an angel. Must be the horns that keep the halo straight.

What confused me was Head 6 and Head Baltar. I figured out head 6 and head Baltar were angels/demons early on in the series.

But when Head Baltar said "You know he doesn't like being called that". Makes me wonder, who the higher power was....

Was Head 6 a Angel and Head Baltar a Demon? That is one question I would like a answer 2.

The message I got during the last 15 minutes of the show was.

1. Keep Klenex close by..
2. Cherish the ones you love
3. Don't take life for granted
4. Keep technology on a tight leash
5. Human life is the most precious of all gifts.
And
6. Family is the most important thing next to life.


Oh also two additional things I learned from the series.

RDM is one hell of a Producer, Director and Writer

and Frak is part of my Vocabulary.

An-Alteran
March 20th, 2009, 11:56 PM
Why couldn't you have waited until the download was OVER!
:(

They had convinced... Cavil the Narcissistic hyper-Atheist to take a leap of faith. Cavil.

They had done it. They had broken the cycle... but no... he had to act on his very understandable... but poorly timed impulse. :(

Almost a happy ending.

garhkal
March 21st, 2009, 12:00 AM
What a sad ending with Adama and Roslin, that was nice though with the cabin.

And what was the part with the Starbuck disappearing? What was she? I still didn't get that.


I too liked the thought he gave to roslin, but some part of me felt he would take the raptor back up to galactica and fly with it into the sun.
As to starbuck, i felt since she might have been one of the angles like head six and baltar, she felt her work was done so disappeared.


When Boomer met up with Athena, and her homage to Adama that she owed him one, and had repaid the debt. She finally took responsibility for her actions. And her knowledge that she was going to die.


I felt that redeamed her, and applauded her for it. Especially when she said "we all make choices"...


I'm pretty sure after 150,000 years, the Centurions are out there everywhere.

Remember though the resurrection 'forumla' was disturbed in transmission..

PG15
March 21st, 2009, 12:47 AM
What happened to the rebel cylons and their baseship?

The baseship was given to the freed Centurons to do as they please.

They were last seen jumping away.

TheGreatLordGeorge
March 21st, 2009, 12:55 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the dying leader make it to earth?

wontgetfooledagain
March 21st, 2009, 01:29 AM
also maybe im so used to the greys of the series but Earth looks so damn vibrant in contrast to the rest of the series
I would be willing to bet that they used a different kind of filter for the Earth scenes specifically to contrast it between the prior episodes of the series to portray more optimism.

It's a show people... The writers get payed for a reason. If I wanted to use my own imagination I could save some money! Instead you give them praise for giving us something we've had before and will have again and again.
All of this has happened before and will happen again...so what?

I think a lot of people involved with BSG need to win a lot of awards!
Open up Fort Knox to them.

The CGI was back and forth too. One minute you see this awesome shot of the Galactica slamming into the colony busting thru a wall in movie quality, the next minute there's a bunch of metal Cylons flopping around with the quality of Star Wars: Clone Wars.
I'm not going to complain about the CGI, because there is only so much you can do with a budget.

A thought on Hera: some people have remarked that she didn't end up being as important as we had been led to believe. However, I think here importance was more of a symbolic type. Hera had to survive, because her survival proves that humans and Cylons can coexist.

And a thought on the whole "all this has happened before and will happen again": since humans don't have the scrolls of pythia, does that mean they are more likely to repeat it all, less likely, or the same?

DetriusXii
March 21st, 2009, 01:45 AM
I too liked the thought he gave to roslin, but some part of me felt he would take the raptor back up to galactica and fly with it into the sun.
As to starbuck, i felt since she might have been one of the angles like head six and baltar, she felt her work was done so disappeared.



I felt that redeamed her, and applauded her for it. Especially when she said "we all make choices"...



Remember though the resurrection 'forumla' was disturbed in transmission..

Why do the Centurions need resurrection? Centurions could create more centurions through industrial manufacturing. The Colonials didn't possess resurrection technology when they created the first Centurions. I'm sure the Centurions will build a civilization for themselves and produce more Centurions in the process. Population growth is part of life.

boeli
March 21st, 2009, 01:49 AM
the end was nice, i kinda hoped they would jump in to the time we're in right now unfortunately that didnt happen. the parts of everyone saying goodbye and Roslin dying almost made me cry so sad. the last part made a lot of it good though when caprica and baltar walk through new york, i hoped to see Kara or some other characters there, as gods or something else

GateTrek2004
March 21st, 2009, 02:07 AM
When they jumped 150,000 years later, I was DYING to see below:

150,000 Years Later...
March 20, 2009!

That would have been neat!

Jeffer
March 21st, 2009, 02:29 AM
depends on who you consider the dieing leader but they all died eventually so

Anubis00
March 21st, 2009, 02:42 AM
Did anyone notice how in Daybreak there were only so many volunteers,yet between the Galactica,vipers,raptors,and Lee's team there were a whole lot more people involved.

Yet I don't recall seeing any of the sixs/eights among them.

foxhound22
March 21st, 2009, 03:01 AM
Did anyone notice how in Daybreak there were only so many volunteers,yet between the Galactica,vipers,raptors,and Lee's team there were a whole lot more people involved.

Yet I don't recall seeing any of the sixs/eights among them.

I did notice that, the only thing I can think of, is that among all the other 30,000 survivors, they found enough people to fill the ship with what they needed. Because from the scene in the flight deck, I can only assume that it was just Galactica crew present.

justinkb
March 21st, 2009, 03:16 AM
does kara being an angel mean the piano player was god?

closetbsgfan
March 21st, 2009, 03:32 AM
One thing nobody seems to have mentioned yet:

The pianist who helped Starbuck remember how to play the "All Along the Watchtower" song in "Someone to Watch Over Me" DISAPPEARS as soon as the Final Five approach the piano. The Final Five don't seem to see the pianist guy as they ask Starbuck how she knows the song, which implies that Starbuck was the only one who could see/hear him. Is this "God" appearing to Kara to teach her the secret way to the second Earth?

To watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WalRgIjHjas&feature=related


One Interpretation of Kara's Prophecy:

The Hybrid once told Kara: "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end." This was totally realized. When Kara first returns as an angel, her Raptor leads them to the first nuked Earth--hence, she is the "harbinger" of the potential death and destruction that inevitably ensues if humans and cylons persist along the vicious cycle of violence. This is essentially a warning from God, showing Galactica inhabitants the potential result of continuing the cycle. Later, Kara "[leads] them all to their end" in the sense that she leads humans and cylons to the end of their journey--new Earth.

I'm by no means a sci-fi fan. In fact, I was initially sort of forced to watch BSG by a close friend. I have to say, THANK GOODNESS! This series has been amazing; the finale even more fascinating. The finale was absolutely perfect. If you're looking for all the ends to be tied up neatly, you just need to think harder and everything makes sense. Every strand is satisfyingly connected as long as you follow through it. The "Angel" Kara coming back in a revamped Raptor that leads them to the nuked Earth is all part of "God"'s plan.

BSG is not only one of the best television series ever made, it's definitely one of the best piece of entertainment ever made.

cshade
March 21st, 2009, 04:24 AM
I have not had a chance to read all 146 posts but is it just me or did Caprica and Balter have a certain Architect and Prophet feel to them...

'If I am its Father then she is most assuredly its Mother.'

Flame Away...

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 04:37 AM
Oh... crap... oh... crap...


I am STILL shaking.

This is now officially, at least in my humble opionion, the best science fiction piece of TV ever made, and I'm a big sci-fi fan (books, shows, movies). Everything fell into place so well, and it was absolutely GENIUS.

As an outspoken atheist, my friends thought I would hate the God revelation, but it's all fiction (and brilliant fiction at that).

Best. Show. Ever.

huntress
March 21st, 2009, 05:01 AM
I am a bit confused about Daybreak 3 since I at least saw only one episode that was 95 minutes long.

I just finished watching and I am sitting here now with puffy, red rimmed eyes and feeling deeply sad, exhausted but also blessed to have been able to watch something THIS good. I cried like a baby through huge parts of the finale and the whole part at the end just broke my heart. I knew Laura was going to die (not from spoilers, but because it was inevitable) but it still hit me like a freight train. It was so sad and sweet and strangely perfect and I just started crying my head off.

Ron, I doubt you will be able to pull something off that can top BSG. This show was utterly amazing and the ending will go down in history as being one of the few finales that didn't leave its viewers disspaointed and with a sense of closure. Just like a really good book ...just like LotR did.

Thank you BSG team. Just THANK YOU!

blackrobe
March 21st, 2009, 05:18 AM
Can't understand Cavil's motivation for shooting himself.


I thought that this was totally natural for the character. He's a petulant child... he never does anything gracefully. He knows he's dead but he doesn't want the enemy to have the satisfaction of either killing or capturing him so he does the one thing he CAN do.

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 05:21 AM
That was the most retarded ending. I think they dug themselves into too deep a hole and they did do the best they could. But when all is said and done, they didn't quite wrap it up well enough. They told the individual stories well but didn't quite address the overall picture. It's like they didn't feel like explaining Kara or didn't know how to so they just left it up to your imagination. Aswell as:

Who are the head people?
What are the head people?
Was Kara a head person?
Who is "God"?
What was so special about Hera?
How did Anders suddenly turn into a hybrid by getting shot in the head?
Do they create hybrids by shooting them in the back of the head?
Why were there old centurions?

Are you serious? They explained all of those... what show have you been watching?

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 05:26 AM
Here's something funny.

About two years ago when BSG was still in season 2, I made a short sci-fi film (that got first prize internationally btw, but that's not the point), unrelated to BSG, but with a few bsg-related easter eggs, and it had the EXACT same "cycle" that they eventually came up with, down to every detail. I was laughing with my friends about this a lot cause everything was slowly falling into place and we realized that it was almost like my cruddy short film being made into the ending of my favorite high budget TV show.

blackrobe
March 21st, 2009, 05:27 AM
The only stupid thing was how after they jumped they just sat there and waited for the batteries to stop firing before they turned on the engines and rammed the colony. You would think that they would come out of their jump guns blazing and with their engines maxed out.

I also had a problem until the second time I watched it... then I thought of two good reasons why they parked themselves in "get-my-ass-kicked alley"

(1) An integral part of their plan was to launch their vipers and raptors and they couldn't do that before the the end of the bombardment of Galactica by the Colony's guns, nor could they risk destroying all the vipers in their tubes or the raptors in the starboard hanger bay by having them on board during the collision.

(2) They would have wanted to make sure that Anders would be able to shut down the Colony's gun batteries before they committed themselves to a maneuver that would almost certainly mean the immobilization of Galactica.

talyn2k1
March 21st, 2009, 05:30 AM
Why couldn't you have waited until the download was OVER!
:(

They had convinced... Cavil the Narcissistic hyper-Atheist to take a leap of faith. Cavil.

They had done it. They had broken the cycle... but no... he had to act on his very understandable... but poorly timed impulse. :(

Almost a happy ending.

I was begging for him to do that.

It would be all too easy to end the cycle, instead PTB wrecked that by finally giving Tory what was coming to her, and then leaving it ambigous at the end as to whether or not the cycle would repeat itself.

Denny Crane
March 21st, 2009, 05:31 AM
Why would you NOT cannibalize your ships to make your home? And the whole spreading around thing, not how I would build a new world. If you wanted to prevent internecine warfare then splitting people up is not the way to do it. 1,000 years down the line different developmental patterns cause irreconcilable differences. Plus you need economies of scale to make such needed products like booze and Dom P.

So Earth was one jump away from the colony?

Dont understand why no one just shot Cavil in the back... The only reason I can think of is that we wouldn't get that Oh Frak scene, which added at least 10 points of awesome to the universe as a whole.

And no matter what reality really is, I choose to believe that Gaius Baltar is God. At least Gaius with sideburns is.

cap'n nick
March 21st, 2009, 05:39 AM
Couple things.

The Head people have been seen to be able to physically interact with real objects (I think we've subtly seen head six move chairs around, and although she's beaten the crap out of baltar before, you could argue that that was just him hurting himself). So if Kara is just an "angel" of the same vein, I don't see a problem with her interacting with real stuff. Second, based on her "inner dialogues" and the things she's experienced, I would guess that she is her "spirit" given form after her body died in the viper on "real" Earth. She's been influenced by the "angels" and had been hand-picked for that purpose.

Second, that kinda throwaway line at the end where Head Baltar says god "doesn't like to be called that" or whatever. That seems to me like a dangling plot line that we're meant to think about (possibly something that will come up in The Plan?). It actually made me think of the prototype Hybrid from Razor that said some considered it a god (although we saw it destroyed).

Also, there's still the mystery behind the original lords of Kobol. Maybe "god" is that 13th Lord who's apparently behind the original exodus from kobol.

I'd like to mention that I really like Anders. His little bit about being connected to perfection . . . I think that (in the context it was presented in this finale, as opposed to the earlier episode) was one of the most poignant and touching moments of the entire series.

Anyway, I'm mostly satisfied. We got our season 1 style space battles, our hand-to-hand combat (with old-style centurions, even!), our "red team" squads of awesome cylons, an absolutely excellent exit by Cavil (keke!), and finally a true redemption and catharsis with Baltar (the farming bit was actually quite touching). There's more (like how helo survived, although he got shot in the leg . . . again), but, well . . . satisfied.

Wayston
March 21st, 2009, 05:44 AM
*leoben's story line was disappointing, perhaps they decided they didn't need it?
*I was disappointed with some of galactica's battle scenes... it was supposed to be two things in space slugging it out yet galactica's rail guns were barely shown... I would have greatly preffered it to have galactica's final battle mimic its first battles in the miniseries with a lot of rail gun fire involved
*so the angels also tried to save cylon earth from extinction yet failed I mean they gave the song to the final five and they warned them of impending doom
*the ending shots of earth were getting boring... booooooring... we get it its a green planet with animals and naked natives
*the decision to abandon all technology was f'ing stupid but was to be expected as the colonials also abandoned much of their technology
*not enough background information about god; I hated that kind of divine intervention in that will smith zombie movie and I'm not liking it here
*wouldn't it be ironic if god is a previous robot incarnation from the camp cavil was in in this cycle (wanting desparatly to abandon humanity) who ascended just like cavil wanted to
*I guess chief loved Cally after all
*I'm going to go against the stream here and suggest it's very appropriate galactica did not die off in combat, that ending fitted Pegasus but it is fitting that Galactica should end its existence along with the fleet it protected
*Lee has got to have one of the saddest endings... you'd think he'd finally get some happiness after everything he's done...
*the ending is not as dark as they claimed really

talyn2k1
March 21st, 2009, 05:48 AM
That was, by a million light years, the best piece of television ever made ever in the history of television!

I was *literally* on the edge of my seat the entire time. Loved every single minute of it.
I didn't like the 'Before the Fall' snippets at the beginning, but by the end of the episode I realised where they all fell in to place and they totally belonged there.

I called most of the things that everyone else did: Boomer dying, Roslin dying, Anders playing a key role in the final battle.

It is so incredibly rare for me to be so affected by a piece of television, but I had a lump in my throat the whole way through. If the wife wasn't in the next room (who would surely take the p1$$ out of me for crying at a TV show, especially 'Cheesy Sci-Fi' as she calls it), I might even have broken my manly exterior and cried a little. The scenes with Adama & Roslin, the battle, even the breaking of Galactica's back after the jump, was the most emotion I have ever felt for a TV show.

The ending was the icing on the cake, we move to the present day where the angels are wondering if the cycle will repeat itself again. I guess it is intended to act as a warning to us not to create technology that we cannot control.

The only thing I am still not sure of is what Kara was. She obviously wasn't just a head!Starbuck on account of all the killing Cylons and maiming Gaeta. I'm guessing she was just a messenger sent from the higher power to lead the humans and Cylons to 'their end', exactly as the Hybrid said.
Leading up to this episode I was hoping for absolute explanations in to God, the Angels, etc. But exactly what they are wasn't explained, and I think that was the best thing to do.
I am not a believer in a god, and I never will be, but for Galactica leaving that ambiguity was the perfect way to end the series.

If I am ever lucky enough to meet Ron Moore, I will put on every hat I own and take each of them of to him one by one. I am a lifelong Gater, and I have to say that as much as I love Stargate, BSG blows it out of the water in almost every respect. Battlestar Galactica has been the greatest TV series ever to exist imho, and that finale was the finest 3 hours of television I have ever seen, or probably ever will see.

Now I need to get rid of that lump in my throat before the Wife realises and mercilessly takes the p1$$.

knowles2
March 21st, 2009, 05:52 AM
Well I seen it up to the last minute, bluddy ---------------- might well not put the name of the website it will only be remove anyway. But I got to wait 54 minutes.:( to one minute of programming, it better be good.

Overall not as bad as I thought it would be and I thought it would be pretty bad. Would of liked some answers. We were told it was not a god in the traditional sense, it would have been fun to see who it was, instead of two head angles just chatting about him. I would like to of seen Starbuck there in New York.

Roslin, I thought could of gone out in a grander way, a better ceremony. Adarma I think should of flew into the sun on board the Galactica.
Who was the leader who never made it to the promise land, Galactica saw, it Rosling saw, so they all made it, another let down.
It would of been fun if the two angles called out to starbuck and called by the name Pythia.

More links into the ancient cultures would of been fun. Seeing some people deciding not to remove of technologies and become the atlantians of greek methology and other myths being link in would of been good.

The opera scene it was obviously the writers had no clue how to get out of that one so they just use the lame scene there, with no explanation what actual opera house, or what cause or who created, sorry it being the Galactica bridge is just a bad excuse for lack of imagination.

The space scenes was a real mix bag, certainly not worth all the cutting back they did in the last nine episodes.
The metal cylons really were a wast, with no back story and no reason for rescueing the Hara, some sought of chat or negotiation scene really needed to be done, perhaps scene showing them asking for sole command of the baststar in return for there help in the rescue op.

No descent explanation of what happen on the first earth, show do not tell people, same Kabol, it needed more. Some of flashbacks was unnecessary at best boring at worst, better replace with scenes of Kabol and or earth 1. I skip through some of them and did not feel like I lost anything at all which shows to me they did not really add anything unlike they do in Lost, sorry anything that use flash backs to tell the story gets compared to lost now.

Some of the stock footage at the end was disappointing I seen it all before in hundred of films, tv programmes, it look like stock footage and you can even buy it of the internet now , usally it well hidden in tv productions, in this case it was stuck out like a saw thumb.

Some shots of Africa was nice, thought they should shown the first scenes of there integration of the locals, may be one of them rescuing Hara or perhaps the doc saving one of the natives child or something to show these separate and different people could learnt to live together.

Real hunters would of spotted them hinding in bush , from like a mile or two away, seriously they will need better camouflage if they going to survive the wilds of Africa

The joke about them learning to hunt was pretty fun. None them knows how to, which could be why hera dies so young.

A couple of scenes, showing what happen to the people left behind on new caprica and old caprica would not gone amidst, or even a few of the ships deciding to go back for them.

Showing the scenes of the cylons in the modern era was also needed it would have been great if angle six had lead Baltar to show the cylons have been acting as some sought of protector of humanity over the last 150,000 thousands and this was, is the anomaly which will end the cycle, with head Baltar saying something like we shall see.

Which lead into a new remake Galactica in 30 years time.

Showing one of the cylons colonies or ships may be taking the form of the flying source or the light ship in the original series would of rounded out the series well.
Found it strange that the old cylons were stronger an better armoured than the newer versions. The hand to hand combat scene was okay still needed better cgi and a longer, larger scene.

This would of been a descent end if it had not been proceeded by 8 hours of slow and largely rubbish tv,and cut out the flash backs and it would have an awesome ending.

toby1kanobi
March 21st, 2009, 06:06 AM
One thing nobody seems to have mentioned yet:

The pianist who helped Starbuck remember how to play the "All Along the Watchtower" song in "Someone to Watch Over Me" DISAPPEARS as soon as the Final Five approach the piano. The Final Five don't seem to see the pianist guy as they ask Starbuck how she knows the song, which implies that Starbuck was the only one who could see/hear him. Is this "God" appearing to Kara to teach her the secret way to the second Earth?

To watch the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WalRgIjHjas&feature=related


One Interpretation of Kara's Prophecy:

The Hybrid once told Kara: "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end." This was totally realized. When Kara first returns as an angel, her Raptor leads them to the first nuked Earth--hence, she is the "harbinger" of the potential death and destruction that inevitably ensues if humans and cylons persist along the vicious cycle of violence. This is essentially a warning from God, showing Galactica inhabitants the potential result of continuing the cycle. Later, Kara "[leads] them all to their end" in the sense that she leads humans and cylons to the end of their journey--new Earth.

I'm by no means a sci-fi fan. In fact, I was initially sort of forced to watch BSG by a close friend. I have to say, THANK GOODNESS! This series has been amazing; the finale even more fascinating. The finale was absolutely perfect. If you're looking for all the ends to be tied up neatly, you just need to think harder and everything makes sense. Every strand is satisfyingly connected as long as you follow through it. The "Angel" Kara coming back in a revamped Raptor that leads them to the nuked Earth is all part of "God"'s plan.

BSG is not only one of the best television series ever made, it's definitely one of the best piece of entertainment ever made.

i think it was obvious the pianist was either karas father (be it daniel or an "angel" of a similar head type, he had the same minnerisyms as her hather, lifting the finger to blow on, cupping her face, and all karas dialogue was about how her father used to teach her to play, just like he was

and i noticed that too that he was never around when other people were talking to kara. i cant remember if he ever spoke to anybody exept kara

pjt
March 21st, 2009, 06:26 AM
Nothing really special about this final...

I've seen better.

Oh, now I'm intrigued! Please, please, tell me about them, I must have missed them all, and that's a shame.

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 06:45 AM
Why couldn't you have waited until the download was OVER!
:(

They had convinced... Cavil the Narcissistic hyper-Atheist to take a leap of faith. Cavil.

They had done it. They had broken the cycle... but no... he had to act on his very understandable... but poorly timed impulse. :(

Almost a happy ending.

i love the irony as i have a icon that mentions galen choking someome

and it was made before the finale:cool:

pjt
March 21st, 2009, 06:49 AM
Wow, this was huge! I'm still overwhelmed with all kinds of emotions. This went miles beyond my optimistic expectations, and I was ready to be satisfied if it wasn't my worst case scenario. My head's still buzzing with all the information we were given, and all the questions left for us to figure out on our own.

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 06:54 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the dying leader make it to earth?

Pythian said

the dying leader would make it to the new home but not step foot on that new home

galactica lead the fleet to it's new home but didn't touch the ground

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 06:59 AM
does kara being an angel mean the piano player was god?

the piano player was a angel but kara not knowing that she was a angel

didn't recognize him. he was also her father


When they jumped 150,000 years later, I was DYING to see below:

150,000 Years Later...
March 20, 2009!

That would have been neat!

i think at the time ron didn't know when the ep would air so he wouldn't have been able too

meredithchandler73
March 21st, 2009, 07:00 AM
I'm not exactly sure how I feel. I hadn't been keeping up with the series and had to catch up this past week. (I watched 21 eps between Monday and Thursday!) The past week has been so exciting and although I wasn't really contemplating what I might see or what I wanted to see, I had high hopes for something that would knock my socks off.

I had a great time watching, but it didn't quite reach the heights I was expected it would for me emotionally. Don't get me wrong - I spent a lot of the last 20 minutes or so weeping (the Adama/Roslin relationship just kills me). But for some reason, the big "WOW" moments weren't quite big enough. I found myself thinking, "That's cool!" a lot, but I wasn't completely floored. And I think it was mostly the flashbacks before the fall of Caprica. Some of them were terrific and really added to what you know about the character's whole story arc and/or where the ended. But some - not so much.

I wasn't very emotionally connected to the Roslin flashbacks. I liked that she decided to go through with the date after finding out he was a former student (I totally called that from the first phone call when she vaguely recognized his name). It was like this friend calls her to tell her she needs to get a life - suggests a blind date and asks is she is joining Adar's campaign. She says no to both but finally relents on the date if the friend will quit bugging her. She goes on the date and has a good time (presumably) but decides this isn't for her. Instead, she joins Adar's campaign. The whole thing had me going, "Eh." And I'm a BIG Roslin fan! I just didn't think it added to her character - just explained how she ended up in politics.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that Lee and Kara almost hooked up the first night they met. Yes, they were stupid drunk at the time, but what does this add to their story?

LOVED the Baltar backstory and how he comes full circle becoming a farmer.

I liked how Adama was considering leaving the military and then couldn't stomach being questioned about his ethics and loyalty.

The Anders flashback was perfect. I wasn't a big fan of his character at the beginning. I basically thought of him as someone Kara could use, but he grew on me. I was sad he didn't get to live on.

Other stuff:
--Loved seeing Galactica ram into the colony. (Wasn't expecting that!)
--seeing old Centurions battle new ones
--Baltar's and Caprica's unison, "You can see them?!?"
--Liked the use of "All Along The Watchtower" as coordinates
--I thought the Galactica/opera house stuff was cool. Liked how history looked like it was going to repeat itself again, but Tyrol killing Tory caused the fighting to continue.
--Racetrack ends up coming to the rescue - even though she was already dead.

All in all, I'm satisfied with this ending. I think the four years of the show have been very consistent and things generally add up. (Loved The X-Files, but if you watched all nine seasons you know that the mythology went all over the place.) This is definitely a show I will go back to and watch again. And I will continue to sing its praises and tell people, "I don't care if you don't like scifi - you need to watch this show!"

huntress
March 21st, 2009, 07:22 AM
Are you serious? They explained all of those... what show have you been watching?

I think that person just wants to start a fight or he or she is really that stupid. I doubt it. There are always jerks around.

langdonboom
March 21st, 2009, 07:28 AM
If the wife wasn't in the next room (who would surely take the p1$$ out of me for crying at a TV show, especially 'Cheesy Sci-Fi' as she calls it), I might even have broken my manly exterior and cried a little.
...
Now I need to get rid of that lump in my throat before the Wife realises and mercilessly takes the p1$$.

This is why I watch alone!


Sorry about the wife, but she needs to UNDERSTAND!

Besides, I thought BSG was the sci-fi series that was bringing all the wives on board! I guess not all of them are open to it.

Anyway, I agree COMPLETELY with EVERYTHING you said, so you don't mind her, you have us!

s09119
March 21st, 2009, 07:29 AM
I'm not exactly sure how I feel. I hadn't been keeping up with the series and had to catch up this past week. (I watched 21 eps between Monday and Thursday!) The past week has been so exciting and although I wasn't really contemplating what I might see or what I wanted to see, I had high hopes for something that would knock my socks off.

I had a great time watching, but it didn't quite reach the heights I was expected it would for me emotionally. Don't get me wrong - I spent a lot of the last 20 minutes or so weeping (the Adama/Roslin relationship just kills me). But for some reason, the big "WOW" moments weren't quite big enough. I found myself thinking, "That's cool!" a lot, but I wasn't completely floored. And I think it was mostly the flashbacks before the fall of Caprica. Some of them were terrific and really added to what you know about the character's whole story arc and/or where the ended. But some - not so much.

I wasn't very emotionally connected to the Roslin flashbacks. I liked that she decided to go through with the date after finding out he was a former student (I totally called that from the first phone call when she vaguely recognized his name). It was like this friend calls her to tell her she needs to get a life - suggests a blind date and asks is she is joining Adar's campaign. She says no to both but finally relents on the date if the friend will quit bugging her. She goes on the date and has a good time (presumably) but decides this isn't for her. Instead, she joins Adar's campaign. The whole thing had me going, "Eh." And I'm a BIG Roslin fan! I just didn't think it added to her character - just explained how she ended up in politics.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that Lee and Kara almost hooked up the first night they met. Yes, they were stupid drunk at the time, but what does this add to their story?

LOVED the Baltar backstory and how he comes full circle becoming a farmer.

I liked how Adama was considering leaving the military and then couldn't stomach being questioned about his ethics and loyalty.

The Anders flashback was perfect. I wasn't a big fan of his character at the beginning. I basically thought of him as someone Kara could use, but he grew on me. I was sad he didn't get to live on.

Other stuff:
--Loved seeing Galactica ram into the colony. (Wasn't expecting that!)
--seeing old Centurions battle new ones
--Baltar's and Caprica's unison, "You can see them?!?"
--Liked the use of "All Along The Watchtower" as coordinates
--I thought the Galactica/opera house stuff was cool. Liked how history looked like it was going to repeat itself again, but Tyrol killing Tory caused the fighting to continue.
--Racetrack ends up coming to the rescue - even though she was already dead.

All in all, I'm satisfied with this ending. I think the four years of the show have been very consistent and things generally add up. (Loved The X-Files, but if you watched all nine seasons you know that the mythology went all over the place.) This is definitely a show I will go back to and watch again. And I will continue to sing its praises and tell people, "I don't care if you don't like scifi - you need to watch this show!"

I agree. It was a great episode... but not quite what I expected or wanted from the finale. I would have liked to see a better thought-out battle at the Colony, because, honestly, it just didn't do much for me. Also... the Colonials would never do what they did in the show, sending the Fleet into the sun and living on Earth (II) with nothing. It makes sense to tie the show into the modern day, but those people would never do it in reality.

Also, I loved them finding the real Earth, and I knew it the moment I saw the craters on the moon. I hadn't guessed that the music would be the path there, and I was thinking more that it was how God communicated with his angels... but hey, I still like it. That said, I think Kara/Roslin/Boomer's "deaths" were all kind of lame, though I did like seeing how the flashbacks from Part 1 (so hated and maligned by so many) really made the entire episode worthwhile.

And finally, what an amazing epilogue in the present day! How things change... and yet how they stay the same. The Colonials tried to steer us down a different path and failed, but we seem to be different. Unlike them, we are aware of our decadence, and fight it every day. Maybe this time around, the epic tale of Kobol, of Earth (I), and of Caprica can finally end in peace... here among humanity's new home on our Earth.

Steve_A
March 21st, 2009, 07:29 AM
1st hour was great....2nd hour much weaker IMHO.

I thought Head-6 and Head Baltar at the end said something to the effect that mitochondrial Eve was found buried next to her parents (human and Cylon). In that case, mitochondrial eve would actually have been Athena.

Some ramifications of this:

If I heard right and Hera was buried as a child, then she had no offspring. I must have heard wrong for the general theme to make sense.

If Athena or any other 6 managed to have a child, then they would also have been exact matches for mitochondrial Eve as well.

There is nothing in the story line so far that would prevent Athena/Helo from having another child, unless cross-breeding is really impossible and Hera was helped along by the "Angels". But if "angels" can genetically manipulate an embryo, then they would not have required this overly complex story line to deliver a viable hybrid to the new Earth to kick start the early-humans there. Just engineer an existing early-human.

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 07:34 AM
If Galen hadn't killed Tory, the cycle would have repeated itself again, just like before. Galen killing Tory is what finally broke it. It is very dramatic since it shows that in the end the human emotion of love and anger is what broke the essentially mathematical, quantized cycle of Cylon rebirth. I would go as far as saying that is the culimating point of the finale.

langdonboom
March 21st, 2009, 07:35 AM
The whole thing had me going, "Eh." And I'm a BIG Roslin fan! I just didn't think it added to her character - just explained how she ended up in politics.

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that Lee and Kara almost hooked up the first night they met. Yes, they were stupid drunk at the time, but what does this add to their story?

To me these were flashes of the moments that echoed their respective fates.

Roslin was destined not to find and enjoy love, her calling was a higher one, but a less personally satisfying one.

Same for Starbuck/Apollo -- they had a mutual attraction it was clear, but they had something more important to consider than their own feelings - the fate of all humanity!

Just as Zak waking up reminded them that they can't do what they might want to do because of their fates, Roslin realizes that though she has romantic needs too, her fate isn't to live out her life happily with Adama, but to struggle to help the human race to where they need to be.

And just LOVED the opera house metaphor -- the Galactica's CIC IS the house of this particular Space Opera and it wasn't so much a vision of what 'to do' but what they were 'going to do' and a signal that this was going to be an important moment. They learned the truth of the opera house - that this was the moment the cylon/human war pivoted on (this time!)

Bruman
March 21st, 2009, 07:43 AM
Lee does have a sad ending - no government, he's all alone.

I don't understand why Lee doesn't see his dad again? When he said "he's not coming back" I thought it meant that Adama was going to fly into the sun or kill himself. When it's shown that he just goes and builds a house with Laura's grave, I can't imagine that Adama and Lee wouldn't want to at least be near each other. But Lee doesn't have a girl anymore.

So Kara is an angel, but is also Kara. The thing is that Starbuck was somehow special even before she disappeared in Maelstrom... it would be nice to connect those dots. (just a nit-pick)/

I find it improbable that the colonists would abandon technology, but I guess that's something that can be fitted into "suspension of disbelief" required to make the story fit.

I was pretty psyched when they found our Earth.


This was in someone else's post: I agree with everything except for the opera house stuff... the way they tried to tie it up was a bit blah for me.\
--
Other stuff:
--Loved seeing Galactica ram into the colony. (Wasn't expecting that!)
--seeing old Centurions battle new ones
--Baltar's and Caprica's unison, "You can see them?!?"
--Liked the use of "All Along The Watchtower" as coordinates
--I thought the Galactica/opera house stuff was cool. Liked how history looked like it was going to repeat itself again, but Tyrol killing Tory caused the fighting to continue.
--Racetrack ends up coming to the rescue - even though she was already dead.
---

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 07:45 AM
I like the "He doesn't like that name." line about God. It shows that there's more involved than just a generic abrahamic God, perhaps some kind of greater intelligence, but not any more mystical than the Cylons. Remember what Asimov said, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I think Kara wasn't just a "head"-Kara. She was some kind of different "model" of angel, more like a messenger.

It's interesting to think Adama was still on Earth somewhere with the last Raptor. I wonder what he did with it in the end. It feels like there are some more stories to tell. I'd rather have had a series based on that rather than Caprica.

bradly08
March 21st, 2009, 07:48 AM
Holy Frak what an episode!

Things i loved:
1. The Big battle at the colony
2. The old and new cylons fighting
3. Cavil blowing his brains out
4. Them finding "Our Earth"
5. The whole 150,000 years later scene

I personly think the scene where they fly over the moon and find "our Earth" is one of the greatest in the Whole series.

Also, I think this best explains what the writers wanted to series to do:


Based on the ending, if I had to describe this series as a whole, it would be an attempt to bring a concept like God (or Gods, or some sort of divine presence) into a rational and reasoned world. Granted, Galactica had spaceships and robots, but it never had aliens or technology that seemed impossible (it is possible to fold space and "jump". Black holes fold space like that). Hell, they were using bullets when other sci-fi series use lasers or phasers or plasma rifles or whatever.

In an age where too much television tries to spoon-feed morality and lessons to us, Battlestar Galactica takes it above all that by trying to get viewers to think. While that sort of television rarely has high initial ratings, it's the sort of thing that can live forever in re-runs as people watch it again to determine its lessons.

neonfiuxx
March 21st, 2009, 07:52 AM
Okay that ending was just gay as hell. The show has never been really well written and that just proves it. That ending was crap. I hope SGU learns something about this drama filed crap.

neonfiuxx
March 21st, 2009, 07:52 AM
oops

Ouroboros
March 21st, 2009, 08:07 AM
Yep, it was Galactica herself.

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 08:09 AM
I agree the dying leader is Galactica. Glad someone found the quote from Pythian.

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 08:14 AM
166 replies so far...was this an important episode? did something big happen? (end of sarcasm)

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 08:17 AM
Starbuck was a construct of the Head Guys. Simple as that.

Did anyone notice that they showed the animatronic from Japan that looks almost human at the end? I cried out "Skinjob! OMYFrakkingGods! that's a Skinjob!"

This has probably been brought up, but I disagree that she was just a construct of just a few people. She was either a construct that everyone saw or she wasn't at all given the number of people who saw her and her interactions - not to mention the Viper she showed up in.

pjt
March 21st, 2009, 08:22 AM
A clever thing: They asked Adama if he was a Cylon. At that time it was just a stupid question to calibrate the lie detector, 'cos it meant if he looked shiny and had one red eye going from left to right and back. ;)

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 08:27 AM
You know, truth is stranger than fiction sometimes and sometimes fiction turns out to be truth. Just look up some fiction Jules Verne had written, and you'll see that just perhaps, your comment above isn't too far off in "some" respects.

Ponder that. :cool:


TheChosen1

My opposition to stem cell research and cloning is based on the fact that no one is asking the question "Just because we CAN do this, SHOULD we?". While we can state all day long that only stem cells from deceased fetuses will be experimented on, my skepticism and lack of faith in humanity fully expects that its just a matter of time until things slowly creep away from that. There have already been instances of parents deliberately having a child for the purpose of saving another. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=5490111&page=1
I can easily see cloning getting to the point where living, viable human clones are made and then treated as second rate beings...and again the argument for it being that you become you're own donor without ever asking the question "Just because we CAN do this, SHOULD we?"'

I might point out that clones could be considered as technology...

m57lyra
March 21st, 2009, 08:31 AM
Each version of her ceasing to be after fulfilling its purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem

Head Six and Head Baltar were Messengers (Angels), seen by those meant to see them.

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 08:35 AM
I'm glad most people seemed to like it. I am very disappointed by the ending. A prehistoric earth where all of the humans (some 30 thousand of them) agree to abandon tech is unrealistic. Especially considering that cylons are still out in space. They got enough resurrection info to possibly rebuild it, we are not sure.

When the label 'advanced' is used to refer to an 'advanced' civilization, you have to consider what 'advanced' is meaning and your own frame of reference. When you consider the Egyptians who built the landing platforms that many consider to be nothing more than tombs (:: snicker ::) or the Maya ruins, you can easily argue that they were 'advanced' without glimmering shiny buildings and cell phones. There is the notion that as a civilization advances, the tendency is to actually become simpler. Modern day USA is very advanced, but overall we're a much simpler society than 200 years ago - the average person doesn't toil from dusk to dawn to tend to the crops, cattle and children. Star Trek: Insurrection provides a perfect, albeit fictional, example as well.

Arative
March 21st, 2009, 08:39 AM
Did anyone get the impression that red dress six represented evil (devil with the red dress on) and Baltar (cough, cough) represented good?

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 08:40 AM
Hmm and I thought I was the only one who instantly assumed it was Scotland.

Yeah I had that with the greys, looking back though even on Caprica the colours were greyer, I think our sun emits a brighter wavelength than the one the colonies were around.

Maybe because he name is GALEN...which is somewhat similar to the word GAELIC?

That's it! Galen is the father of all Scots! Hence why Scotty on ST was such a great engineer...and the Borg are the descendants of the Centurions that went of to do their own thing...

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 08:45 AM
so there are people walking around on earth with cylon blood in their veins

Now you know why Iron is a key component of blood and that without it we're not quite ourselves. So for all the ladies out there, when you're not quite feeling yourself, just find a girder, a light pole , a metal bench and take a bite...and if you're in your car, pop the hood.

(I'm really sorry, I'm just in a particular mood at the moment...)

An-Alteran
March 21st, 2009, 08:52 AM
Actually I just realized something:

Dead Racetrack ( :( ) would have hit the fire button no matter what happened to Tory.

I was really glad that she died and that Galen killed her, actually, I just thought the timing was bad.

But the more I think about it... I don't think it mattered.

Damaja
March 21st, 2009, 08:55 AM
Whatever happened to the Deanna Cylon?

quade_1
March 21st, 2009, 08:55 AM
I think the 150,000 year reference was meant to say that by destroying the ships and their technology they only prolonged the cylon war. And that in this case the "13th tribe" could be construed as the rebel centurions who were given the basestar.

BTW thanks for posting that link to the interview, but here is my problem:

Moore: Kara is what you want her to be. It’s easy to put the label on her of “angel” or “messenger of God” or something like that. Kara Thrace died and was resurrected and came back and took the people to their final end. That was her role, her destiny in the show… We debated back and forth in the writers’ room about giving it more clarity and saying definitively what she is. We decided that the more you try to put a name on it, the less interesting it became, and we just decided this was the most interesting way for her to go out, with her just disappearing and [leave people wondering exactly what she was].
So why exactly did they pay the writers when they could have just let us use our imaginations the whole time?? Seems like they had no real answer to the question so they just avoided it.

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 09:05 AM
Why would you NOT cannibalize your ships to make your home? And the whole spreading around thing, not how I would build a new world. If you wanted to prevent internecine warfare then splitting people up is not the way to do it. 1,000 years down the line different developmental patterns cause irreconcilable differences. Plus you need economies of scale to make such needed products like booze and Dom P.

So Earth was one jump away from the colony?

1) To start from scratch.

2) Galactica's jump ability had been extended...then of course because of the inter-universe rift, it did have all the power of the Black Hole behind it so for all we know Galactica actually jumped to the Alteran/Ori home galaxy...

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 09:06 AM
:: FRANTIC:: PEOPLE! Stop posting...I can't keep up.... :: snickering ::

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 09:08 AM
Now for the real issue... anybody know why its not on iTunes yet...

kharn the betrayer
March 21st, 2009, 09:13 AM
Whatever happened to the Deanna Cylon?


she stayed behind on cylon earth

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 09:14 AM
Did anyone get the impression that red dress six represented evil (devil with the red dress on) and Baltar (cough, cough) represented good?

one way to look at it

but if head six is evil why lead baltar down a positive road

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 09:15 AM
she stayed behind on cylon earth

sad thing is she thought things would be tough but really the trip between earth 1.0 wasn't really that bad.

aside from the mutiny

TheChosen1
March 21st, 2009, 09:20 AM
the way i'm looking at it

where daybreak ends we begin. the series shows us how we came to be and we know our past now and we can't make the same mistakes again

hope that make sense

This show has been a metaphor for human life and what has happpen. RDM got the "This has all happened before and will happen again" from the old human adage of We will be doomed to repeat our mistakes if we don't learn from it. It has been shown over thousands of years, the rise and fall of man and societies. I'm talking about known history. The planet is 4.5 BILLION years old. Humans go back quite a while. Anyways, I have said before, life immitates art and art immitates life.

Battlestar galactica is telling us it is truely about choices. Choices about our lives, what we want to do with them and do we truely want to keep in a cycle of self destruction? Nothing mythical about that. The reason why it hits home so hard with all of us because deep down inside we know it's true.


TheChosen1

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 09:22 AM
sad this is she thought things would be tough but really the trip between earth 1.0 wasn't really that bad.

aside from the mutiny

Especially since she would have loved to have been there at the destruction of all of the Cavil's given that his boxing her model resulted in their death. I actually was kind of sad when she stayed behind.

Is anyone else wishing that the other models with Cavil had had death bed conversions and came to their senses?

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 09:28 AM
Anyone else wish that someone would come up with an iPhone app that will automatically plays 'All Along the Watchtower' on your iPhone when it comes near another iPhone with the same app?

:: I'd by one just for that! ::

Arative
March 21st, 2009, 09:29 AM
one way to look at it

but if head six is evil why lead baltar down a positive road

That's true. As Baltar said in the CiC, the force isn't good or evil, those are what humans create. But at times, head 6 certainly seemed quite evil. We never really got good screen time with head baltar.

Damaja
March 21st, 2009, 09:30 AM
yea that's right, I forgot that she stayed behind on the Nuked Earth. Sucks, she woulda wanted to be with them at the end when they finally found peace.

TheChosen1
March 21st, 2009, 09:35 AM
I really liked the first 1hr.
Out of all the scifi options that RDM had in front of him he goes with Angels and Intelligent Design??



Actually the Angels and Intelligent design isn't really sci-fi. Well not unless you don't believe the bible's of the world.

"And it came to pass, when man began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters where born unto them. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose".(Genesis 6:1-2)


TheChosen1

TheChosen1
March 21st, 2009, 09:46 AM
It's not so much religious as it is spiritual,

I agree.

:)


TheChosen1

Bl4de
March 21st, 2009, 09:56 AM
"That too is in God's plan"
"You know he doesn't like that name"

Pretty much confirms without a doubt that the "head Baltar/head Six" were angels the whole time. Why did Baltar say "silly me" after that though?

It would have been nice to see Kara with the other angels at the end, but that would have seemed too.. Star Warsy perhaps.

What do you guys think? Heavy religious overtones.. definitely a far cry from season 1, but it was good. It would have been nice to have a bit more explanation on the whole angel thing but oh well.

TheChosen1
March 21st, 2009, 10:03 AM
My opposition to stem cell research and cloning is based on the fact that no one is asking the question "Just because we CAN do this, SHOULD we?". While we can state all day long that only stem cells from deceased fetuses will be experimented on, my skepticism and lack of faith in humanity fully expects that its just a matter of time until things slowly creep away from that. There have already been instances of parents deliberately having a child for the purpose of saving another. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=5490111&page=1
I can easily see cloning getting to the point where living, viable human clones are made and then treated as second rate beings...and again the argument for it being that you become you're own donor without ever asking the question "Just because we CAN do this, SHOULD we?"'

I might point out that clones could be considered as technology...

Yeah cloning hit's me hard too. I mean it strikes a chord with-in me. Getting on the subject of creating "biological Machines" and perhaps the chance of treating them as a sub class of humans just because they are machines. I think it's a lesson for us in that should we do it and if we do are we prepared as a whole to be able to be morally stringent enough to be able to show the compassion and understanding towards what ever comes of it.
We would then in essence become the created who now becomes the creators( of life that is). It's a really deep, deep issue and one that is not new.

TheChosen1

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 10:09 AM
Darn, there are so many posts to reply to, I have a list of almost 20! At least one additional page of posts has occurred just since I started reading from post #1 (my own!).

I already know that when I rewatch the finale with my spousal unit and daughter tonight (they usually watch on Sat evenings) there are going to be buckets of tears spilled - especially as they are big believers in angels.

Opinions are all over the place on the finale. Seems some loved, and others felt was an outright copout of aimless writing.

I will start replying shortly, but I am mostly quite satisfied with the ending. There are little things that nag away, but I am mostly more happy then not happy. As I said in another thread (think it was yours Hal2100) it was a moment in time that can have one review oneself, see what aspects of the characters are in fact a reflection; hopefully cause one to examine that which they are doing and reset to a new course.

If this happens for you then the theme of the finale (and perhaps the show in its entirety) succeeded, and if not then perhaps it failed.

Going to go eat lunch then start replying!

fwupow
March 21st, 2009, 10:12 AM
Now, that's more like it!

Stuff happened this time.

The way the ep started, I thought I'd be needing my barf bucket and when Adama started ralphing on himself, I leaned over the chair arm and double checked my alignment. Thankfully that was the end of the flashback crap for awhile.

The attack on "The Colony" was incredible. If you haven't seen this episode, why not wait for the Blu-ray then watch it on the biggest screen you can find with the Dolby Digital 7.1 cranked. It was definitely theater quality and then some.

Obviously the producers of BSG are not atheists. I thought we'd be provided with some scientific explanation for Kara Thrace and the imaginary Baltar / Six.

The biggest news of the night, however, was the apparent dropping of "Caprica" by Sci-Fi. It's going straight to DVD and digital download? I had no idea. It appears that Sci-Fi is going to pick up "Battlestar Galactica: The Plan" instead, if I understood that ad-break promos correctly.

fwupow
March 21st, 2009, 10:18 AM
Any thoughts about Kara's magic music?

If the view of the heavens from smoldering cinder Earth is the same as our Earth, then Kara's magic music FTL jump had to have been more than just a simple jump. There had to have been some forward time travel or shifting to an alternate universe involved.

What I mean is that smoldering cinder Earth and lush "Daybreak" Earth can not exist at the same point in space at the same time in the same reality.

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 10:20 AM
So we can deduce from the finale that the only survivors of the Attack on the Colonies and the members of the Rebel Cylon fleet were all actually a bunch of hairdressers, account executives, film makers, security guards and telephone sanitisers.

"I'm referencing documents that you may not have access to."

P-90_177
March 21st, 2009, 10:25 AM
That was a work of genius. To be honest i still haven't seen about the 16 minutes worth of the show. I haven't seen when they leave galactica for the final time or the last 8 minutes worth right at the end so please no one ruin it. But it seems to me that in one show they have truly managed to capture EVERYTHING about humanity. Our Joy, our sorrow, our pain, our hate, our kindness, our comapassion, our guilt and all of our vices. but at the same time they have layed out a great parralel version of history on earth. think about it. Th knowledge of evolved humans living on through out the centuries. No wonder civilisations suddenly appeared all over the world over night. it was them.
I'm still unsure about god. the way it seems to me is that just like it is now, god is a mystery. he may be a god or he may be just something uber powerful. I mean granted there may not be anything in reality but the address it quite nicely i think.
It leaves us with many questions. And that is just so incredibly human. Always asking question, always a need to know more. Even with Lees desire to explore the new world. So the show has succeeded in defining the human race in 4 seasons of great writing as well as comenting on where we are and where we are heading. fantastic. totally unlike anything that has happend before, including its 70's counterpart.

P-90_177
March 21st, 2009, 10:26 AM
Any thoughts about Kara's magic music?

If the view of the heavens from smoldering cinder Earth is the same as our Earth, then Kara's magic music FTL jump had to have been more than just a simple jump. There had to have been some forward time travel or shifting to an alternate universe involved.

What I mean is that smoldering cinder Earth and lush "Daybreak" Earth can not exist at the same point in space at the same time in the same reality.

unless they aren't the same planet. we don't have cylons on our earth remember. ;)

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 10:27 AM
Yeah cloning hit's me hard too. I mean it strikes a chord with-in me. Getting on the subject of creating "biological Machines" and perhaps the chance of treating them as a sub class of humans just because they are machines. I think it's a lesson for us in that should we do it and if we do are we prepared as a whole to be able to be morally stringent enough to be able to show the compassion and understanding towards what ever comes of it.
We would then in essence become the created who now becomes the creators( of life that is). It's a really deep, deep issue and one that is not new.

TheChosen1

You have such (misguided) faith in humanity. My stance is that we shouldn't even take a single step down that road to begin with.

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 10:30 AM
Any thoughts about Kara's magic music?

If the view of the heavens from smoldering cinder Earth is the same as our Earth, then Kara's magic music FTL jump had to have been more than just a simple jump. There had to have been some forward time travel or shifting to an alternate universe involved.

What I mean is that smoldering cinder Earth and lush "Daybreak" Earth can not exist at the same point in space at the same time in the same reality.

They don't. They are two completely different planets. The new planet was named 'Earth' by the survivors once they landed. Also, one of the tests when they came to Cylon-Earth was to check the stars to see if they matched what was seen in Athena's tomb which they did confirming that that planet was indeed Earth. If you call you're new house 'Home' does that mean that your old house was never 'Home'?

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 10:33 AM
Now, that's more like it!

Stuff happened this time.

The way the ep started, I thought I'd be needing my barf bucket and when Adama started ralphing on himself, I leaned over the chair arm and double checked my alignment. Thankfully that was the end of the flashback crap for awhile.

The attack on "The Colony" was incredible. If you haven't seen this episode, why not wait for the Blu-ray then watch it on the biggest screen you can find with the Dolby Digital 7.1 cranked. It was definitely theater quality and then some.

Obviously the producers of BSG are not atheists. I thought we'd be provided with some scientific explanation for Kara Thrace and the imaginary Baltar / Six.

The biggest news of the night, however, was the apparent dropping of "Caprica" by Sci-Fi. It's going straight to DVD and digital download? I had no idea. It appears that Sci-Fi is going to pick up "Battlestar Galactica: The Plan" instead, if I understood that ad-break promos correctly.

I don't think it implies the writers are this or that. As far as I see, it implies a deist perspective, with the "God" being anything from just a random force to some kind of advanced intelligence (Asimov's quote "any sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic). There was never a reference made to a standard Abrahamic God.

I am an outspoken atheist and I found it to be a very interesting storyline, keeping in mind that it's just fantasy.

The writers are geniuses.

metabog
March 21st, 2009, 10:35 AM
she stayed behind on cylon earth

They should have jumped a raptor back there to bring her to new earth. (Deanna).

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 10:37 AM
They should have jumped a raptor back there to bring her to new earth. (Deanna).

she's probably dead already

plus the actress wasn't available

TheChosen1
March 21st, 2009, 10:41 AM
You have such (misguided) faith in humanity. My stance is that we shouldn't even take a single step down that road to begin with.

I agree right now to take it that far. I don't believe we are "spiritually" evolved yet as a race(human). All though I do think there is some merit to being able to mess around a little bit to be able to fix the gentic problems that have been getting worse and worse, that last couple hundred years. It's been passed on from generation to generation and with the way we live, eat, sleep and conduct ourselves we should be able to break this pattern of passing on bad genetics to our children. Science is but a tool and like any tool. It has it's place but any tool can be misused if one is not properly "trained" or guided in the use of it.

TheChosen1

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 10:41 AM
They should have jumped a raptor back there to bring her to new earth. (Deanna).

It may not have been possible. I believe that wikipedia article on FTL drives suggest that the distance that ships can jump vary. Hence the distance that a Raptor can jump may be shorter than a Battlestar's to begin with. Toss in there that if the Raptor's FTL wasn't upgraded with Cylon technology, the distance that Galactica could cover would be all that farther. Its also possible that if the black hole was between New Earth and Old Earth that any jump back would have to factor that in and go around it as opposed to doing a straight line.

But then may be the Centurions went back...

Mamid
March 21st, 2009, 10:46 AM
I don't see why they didn't just start a colony and call it "Atlantis." We have myths about Atlantis and the ancient mariners as well, so why not make the remains of the colony into that instead of what was done?

And why get rid of the ships? Why not park them in orbit around say, Saturn, and when we're finally able to reach them, give us our history? Destroying the old bird and her flock like that was just... uncool.

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 10:48 AM
I don't see why they didn't just start a colony and call it "Atlantis." We have myths about Atlantis and the ancient mariners as well, so why not make the remains of the colony into that instead of what was done?

And why get rid of the ships? Why not park them in orbit around say, Saturn, and when we're finally able to reach them, give us our history? Destroying the old bird and her flock like that was just... uncool.

It sounded as if the survivors hoped to avoid advanced technology entirely in the off-chance that they'd break the cycle. In that aspect, its carries similar themes to Dune and the prohibition against Thinking Machines, only they weren't that extereme.

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 10:51 AM
Well, there isn't going to be a man versus machine war any longer. When our earth humans enter the stars, we're going to be vastly outnumbered by a Centurion civilization, which has advanced technologies and the ability to reproduce themselves. The war is over. The Centurions won.

Nope, they lost.

The Colony was destroyed, it was certainly propelled out of orbit of the singularity into it directly by the nukes. Although there would have been some basestars out and about somewhere, resurrection is gone so that would have been the end of the skinjobs, and also I believe the hybrids. Perhaps the free cylons on the rebel baseship went hunting, possibly even to free their enslaved brothers, but whether a few remaining basestars widely scattered could be enough to form up a new cylon civilisation I think is questionable. And to survive 150,000 years seems highly improbable. But it is an open question - and could even be the door to a new series if that was desired.

toby1kanobi
March 21st, 2009, 10:51 AM
ok, Baltar says "you now HE dunt like being called that" then we have a pause and he says "silly me.... silly me". most here think he is reffering to himself, whereas to me the silly me line would sugggest there was something about his first statement that he got wrong i.e the HE, could the god there on about be a woman?, maybe they are reffering to starbuck, as the stainch non believer she is she would be very frakked off being called god would she not

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 10:54 AM
ok, Baltar says "you now HE dunt like being called that" then we have a pause and he says "silly me.... silly me". most here think he is reffering to himself, whereas to me the silly me line would sugggest there was something about his first statement that he got wrong i.e the HE, could the god there on about be a woman?, maybe they are reffering to starbuck, as the stainch non believer she is she would be very frakked off being called god would she not

Perhaps it was an injoke...since RDM did write the BSG: Bible suggesting that RDM is god...

TheChosen1
March 21st, 2009, 10:57 AM
I don't see why they didn't just start a colony and call it "Atlantis." We have myths about Atlantis and the ancient mariners as well, so why not make the remains of the colony into that instead of what was done?

And why get rid of the ships? Why not park them in orbit around say, Saturn, and when we're finally able to reach them, give us our history? Destroying the old bird and her flock like that was just... uncool.

Atlantis fell about 24,000 -25,000 years ago, close to the begining of this current galactic cycle we are now in that ends in 2012-2013. Interesting isn't it.


TheChosen1

knowles2
March 21st, 2009, 10:57 AM
I think the 150,000 year reference was meant to say that by destroying the ships and their technology they only prolonged the cylon war. And that in this case the "13th tribe" could be construed as the rebel centurions who were given the basestar.

BTW thanks for posting that link to the interview, but here is my problem:

So why exactly did they pay the writers when they could have just let us use our imaginations the whole time?? Seems like they had no real answer to the question so they just avoided it.

I have to agree with you here. They should give us all the answers except they know they do not have those answers.

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 10:57 AM
And poor Gauis crushed at the end that he was going to have to go back to that which he hated and had done everything to escape (farming) but the joy that he was going to be doing it with the woman he loved. That was cool.



i think he was happy about the whole thing

that's how i took it :)


same here, that seemed like tears of Joy to me)


Some irony in that isn't there? all that running away just to wind up exactly where he started

And that is my meaning as well. It was a wonderful ironic twist.

toby1kanobi
March 21st, 2009, 11:03 AM
Perhaps it was an injoke...since RDM did write the BSG: Bible suggesting that RDM is god...

could be. i think the answer is there to see, i dont think its supposed to be a secret for the fans to ponder, i think its pointing to a very specific person in the show.

its so frustrating, as i m shure its staring me in the face

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 11:13 AM
Excellent finale, but it was waaaaaaaaaaay too long. SGA was too short and this one was too long. I am not happy about the Starbuck turnout. I think that was a cheesy way to end her character. What happened to Daniel? They should of never even mentioned that. Also, how did Starbuck know the notes to that song? How come she was called the halbringer of death? A lot of questions left unanswered, but overall an excellent Series finale.

I agree with you at least partly. I am not dissappointed about Starbuck being another "angel" or "messenger" but the fact the writers drew in "Daniel" made it seem like Daniel was Kara's father, and then tried to disavow that this was the connection does not ring very true.

I do believe the harbinger of death has been answered in this thread - someone even provided the definition (sorry could not find the post or I would quote it) - in fact I suggest that she was harbinger of death in every respect, as she led them to a completely new way of life, with every aspect of their prior existence, whether human or cylon, left behind.

Pharaoh Atem
March 21st, 2009, 11:16 AM
And that is my meaning as well. It was a wonderful ironic twist.

he wanted to give back help people. well why not grow a garden and help feed the people who settled near by. :)

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 11:19 AM
so there are people walking around on earth with cylon blood in their veins

Yes, I suggest that we are all in fact should be considered evolutionary hybrids! Given the supposition that Hera was the Mitochondrial Eve we who are alive therefore all carry in our DNA a strand tied to her. :cool:

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 11:22 AM
I have to agree with you here. They should give us all the answers except they know they do not have those answers.

There's a story that I am writting myself in which not all answers will be provided. Its the writer's choice as to what is to be revealed and what won't be. In the process of developing the story, it may very well be that specific details aren't neccessary to the story and thus don't need to be fleshed out. Case in point, in my story there are seven disciplines, seven forms and seven weapons - a phrase which is repeated frequently - but when I tried to define them all, I couldn't. I then realized that the I didn't have to simply because the story isn't about them explicitly. Thus I've decided to leave them undefined.

I might point out that while I would have liked to have known about the Lords of Kobol and what exactly happened there, it isn't critical to the story. Somethings, like the Angels and God are to be taken at face value. They are what they are. The whole thing with Dumbledore being gay (Yes, he's gay) was nothing short of ridiculous simply because his sexuality doesn't come into play in terms of telling the story. It's like Rowling putting in a simple line that Ron noticed that Harry had starting taking unusually long showers since he started dating whatever her name is. Its nothing but a superfluous detail.

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 11:23 AM
he wanted to give back help people. well why not grow a garden and help feed the people who settled near by. :)

I am thinking that perhaps in fact that his and Caprica's efforts may have been the beginning of farming, and the transition of man from a hunter/gatherer nomadic being. While I doubt the writers were meaning to imply something that deep, that does not mean we can't!:)

quade_1
March 21st, 2009, 11:30 AM
I thought Baltar's "silly me" comment was to infer that Baltar was "god".

I don't understand why the Kara "angel" wasn't with the Baltar/Six "angels" which is why they never actually answered, what is Kara?


I really didn't like the religious ending, they coulda done alot better. For a science fiction TV show, aside from the space ships and robots, there was not a damn science fiction aspect in it. I was expecting time travel through the black hole they kept talking about in the cylon colony. Woulda preferred that over "god".

kharn the betrayer
March 21st, 2009, 11:34 AM
the very idea of Baltar and his hot supermodel robot babe farming kind of makes me laugh just because I find it hard to imagine Baltar and her doing something like that

knowles2
March 21st, 2009, 11:36 AM
I am thinking that perhaps in fact that his and Caprica's efforts may have been the beginning of farming, and the transition of man from a hunter/gatherer nomadic being. While I doubt the writers were meaning to imply something that deep, that does not mean we can't!:)

That was the whole point them being there advance the human tribes to give them language, the wheel, and other technology obviously it did not turn out that way as we did not developed wheels and agriculture until about ten thousand years ago give or take a few thousand, and colonies arrive 150,000 years. This does sought of allow for atlantian type society who did learn from the colonies but died out or the colonies grew lazy and never taught the tribes anything.

I would love them to produce webisodes to close up all the stories, how did Adarma live, did his son climb the mountains, cross the oceans, did Baltare grow a farm, what happen to his followers, obviously they did not jump off a cliff, and who would teach hera hunting skills :p

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 11:37 AM
I just remembered something

am I the only person not happy at the grand total of ONE SCENE Leoben got in this episode?

we havnt seen him since he ran off after seeing Starbucks body and he gets a grand total of ONE scene in the shows final episode and it wasnt even on Earth!

Agreed. I feel they tried to include as many of the small roles as they could, but the lack of some characters is one of those nagging things. Other examples are Sherman Cottle, the abrupt dissappearence of Baltars followers (although they at least got some screen time), and for that matter, what happened to Sebastian Spence? But certainly as so much was made of the Leoben/Kara storyline at one point, it was rather abruptly dropped it seems.

kharn the betrayer
March 21st, 2009, 11:46 AM
I so hope the extended cut of daybreak on the 4.5 dvds has a Leoben/Kara scene in it

also hopefully more concerning other characters like Cottle and what not

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 11:47 AM
Agreed. I feel they tried to include as many of the small roles as they could, but the lack of some characters is one of those nagging things. Other examples are Sherman (the doctor), the abrupt dissappearence of Baltars followers (although they at least got some screen time), and for that matter, what happened to Sebastian Spence? But certainly as so much was made of the Leoben/Kara storyline at one point, it was rather abruptly dropped it seems.

Alas, there *should* have been a Leoben/Kara scene. I also think that the final scene would have been better if it had been Baltar, Six, Kara and Leoben (and one of them walking a dog on a leash). Just having the two, seems too confined.

knowles2
March 21st, 2009, 11:48 AM
There's a story that I am writting myself in which not all answers will be provided. Its the writer's choice as to what is to be revealed and what won't be. In the process of developing the story, it may very well be that specific details aren't neccessary to the story and thus don't need to be fleshed out. Case in point, in my story there are seven disciplines, seven forms and seven weapons - a phrase which is repeated frequently - but when I tried to define them all, I couldn't. I then realized that the I didn't have to simply because the story isn't about them explicitly. Thus I've decided to leave them undefined.

I might point out that while I would have liked to have known about the Lords of Kobol and what exactly happened there, it isn't critical to the story. Somethings, like the Angels and God are to be taken at face value. They are what they are. The whole thing with Dumbledore being gay (Yes, he's gay) was nothing short of ridiculous simply because his sexuality doesn't come into play in terms of telling the story. It's like Rowling putting in a simple line that Ron noticed that Harry had starting taking unusually long showers since he started dating whatever her name is. Its nothing but a superfluous detail.
I see where you coming from but I think the explanations that people want are central to the story and create a better ending for me. But each to our own, as knowing what they are would just bring sense to everything. I personally love superfluous details as it helps adds to the universe and completes it but that just me, I am unimaginative.

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 11:49 AM
I would love them to produce webisodes to close up all the stories, how did Adarma live, did his son climb the mountains, cross the oceans, did Baltare grow a farm, what happen to his followers, obviously they did not jump off a cliff, and who would teach hera hunting skills :p

I would love to see webisodes, or even better some follow direct to DVD movies that close all the lose ends. We have the companion piece of The Plan, and the precursor of Caprica, so if they do well maybe we will see something to close all the questions.

I grant your overall point you made about what the writers intended, so possibly my observation about Baltar farming was intended by the writers, although I believe my observation in the minute is deeper then what the writers intended in the grand context.

ToasterOnFire
March 21st, 2009, 11:51 AM
There was once scene I didn't really get - when Tigh and Ellen were wishing Tyrol well on Earth there was a flashback with the two of them in the club talking about his retirement and hoping to spend all this time together. The flashback ends back on them and they look at each other...uncomfortably? I didn't understand that bit. Was it an indicator that they wouldn't make it together on Earth?

HAL2100
March 21st, 2009, 11:51 AM
I see where you coming from but I think the explanations that people want are central to the story and create a better ending for me. But each to our own, as knowing what they are would just bring sense to everything. I personally love superfluous details as it helps adds to the universe and completes it but that just me, I am unimaginative.

The interview posted several pages back expalins about the music which helped to resolve that component of it leaving things up in the air as to who/what Kara was.

toby1kanobi
March 21st, 2009, 11:59 AM
the very idea of Baltar and his hot supermodel robot babe farming kind of makes me laugh just because I find it hard to imagine Baltar and her doing something like that

if i was in the middle of nowhere with only a six for company ide certainly be ploughing something, but it wouldnt be a field;)

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 11:59 AM
so in the kobal opera house that must have been the place where the 13 tribes decided to split ways and take a new path.

just like the cylons and humans did in the CIC

Glad you picked up on that. I have it in my little notes I have been jotting down that people did not seem to understand the Opera House illusions and was going to address it in a post, and you summarized it up nicely.

Opera House = CIC = centre stage = Galactica = I could go on but I hope point is made....

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 12:03 PM
There was once scene I didn't really get - when Tigh and Ellen were wishing Tyrol well on Earth there was a flashback with the two of them in the club talking about his retirement and hoping to spend all this time together. The flashback ends back on them and they look at each other...uncomfortably? I didn't understand that bit. Was it an indicator that they wouldn't make it together on Earth?

I believe the point of the flashback at the time it occurred was to make the point that finally, they were going to get to do exactly that, on our Earth. After all the delays, the false hopes of retirement, all that their love had endured, they were finally going to get to settle down and spend together what time they had left. I felt that to be a really poignant moment, very moving as I was watching it.

Espeon1962
March 21st, 2009, 12:08 PM
i also wouldn't be surprised if ron wins another Peabody award for daybreak

If this show does not win an Emmy for best drama, or at least the finale get recognition (I think there is an award for a best episode is there not?) then I truly believe the Emmy's really do not get it. Course we have all hashed this out before. This was one of the great ensemble drama casts, right up there with Mash, ER and others, and deserves the same recognition. Some of the HBO drivel that has been winning cannot hold a carrot to BSG in my opinion.