PDA

View Full Version : Deadlock (416)



GateWorld
February 2nd, 2009, 05:41 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/416.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">DEADLOCK</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 416</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The final Cylon returns to the fleet and is reunited with her loved ones, but her presence wreaks havoc between them. Baltar discovers that someone else has taken over leadership of his followers.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Arative
February 20th, 2009, 07:28 PM
Well that was a slow episode, after last week and all the revelations, I thought we'd get more answers with Ellen coming to the fleet. I thought it was pretty funny scene when Ellen was sitting in the chair and Adama and Roslen were just staring at her. Wondering where the hard drinking, hard fraking Ellen Tigh went to.

Surprised that the killed off the pure Cylon baby but goes back to the theme that the human's and cylon have to combine and live together to survive. And makes Hera much more important again.

Why do the Cylon's always want to run?

Finger13
February 20th, 2009, 07:28 PM
Poor Six and Saul.

And Galactica for that matter.

Ellen is a crap disturber. She ruins everything. I thought after seeing her in No Exit that she would have matured having gained her memories back. Turns out she's just as naive and selfish as ever.

Tory too.

And what was with Chief? He seemed to be coming back to the fleet, yet wanted to jump away?

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 07:29 PM
FIX! I must have my fix! Give me all the details....please

::sobbing on the floor::


(Or send me money for cable...)

Finger13
February 20th, 2009, 07:35 PM
FIX! I must have my fix! Give me all the details....please

::sobbing on the floor::


(Or send me money for cable...)

- Galactica has the Cylon tech added to her now, the organic material has begun to heal the damage to Galactica's structure.
- Ellen and Boomer are back in the fleet
- Ellen raises crap, she is jealous that Tigh had a baby with Caprica. She tries to get the other Five to jump away with the Base Star and leave the fleet behind. They also want to take Caprica Six with them because of the baby.
- Caprica and Tigh's baby dies after Caprica is in the middle of an argument amongst the Five. (Anders and Tigh don't want to leave the fleet, Tory, Ellen and Tyrol want to.
- The Cylons have been posting pictures of every Cylon that has died since they joined the fleet on the wall with all of the pictures of the dead Colonials.
- Tigh and Adama are good buddies again, getting smashed together and Adama helps out Tigh when he finds out his kid died.
- Baltar is seeing Head Six again, and he starts handing out supplies that his group had stockpiled. She eventually convinces Baltar to seek guns after a group steals his supplies through force, Baltar goes to Adama and convinces him to give his group assault rifles.
- Something happens to Anders at the end, his heartbeat changes at the end of the episode, gets faster. Might mean he's coming to.
- Tyrol is all stressed out over Boomer, which according to the preview for next week will play a large part in that episode. Boomer is currently in the brig.

the fifth man
February 20th, 2009, 07:50 PM
Really good episode tonight IMO. I feel really bad for Tigh and Caprica.

Next week should be amazing. I can't believe there are only 4 episodes left now. All will be revealed very soon.

Chev's Ron
February 20th, 2009, 07:51 PM
Great episode, the plot kept me on edge, praticularly Ellen/Caprica and Baltar's followers, though the episode in terms of pacing was very slow.

I noticed that Ron Moore showed multiple scenes of Adama supervising the repairs and lamenting over Galactica being a hybrid itself now. (Setting up the last scene where Adama and Roslin agree that a fusion of Cylon and Human cultures/circumstances has already happened.)

I was very sad to see Caprica's baby die, for awhile, I was worried that Ellen would do something to harm it. (which she did in a way by stressing out Caprica.) I hope to God that Tigh dumps ellen, the b**ch doesn't deserve anything after treating both of them the way she did.

From the jist of their conversation, I think baltar was trying to get Adama to supply his followers with weapons so he can defend galactica in the event of another rebellion, but I was left a bit "what exactly did they agree to?" in that scene.

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 08:01 PM
I obviously haven't seen the episode, but the thought of Ellen getting upset at Tigh because he was doing some serious data exchanging with Six was uncool. How was he supposed to know that she would download and it had been 18 months?

Finger13
February 20th, 2009, 08:02 PM
Great episode, the plot kept me on edge, praticularly Ellen/Caprica and Baltar's followers, though the episode in terms of pacing was very slow.

I noticed that Ron Moore showed multiple scenes of Adama supervising the repairs and lamenting over Galactica being a hybrid itself now. (Setting up the last scene where Adama and Roslin agree that a fusion of Cylon and Human cultures/circumstances has already happened.)

I was very sad to see Caprica's baby die, for awhile, I was worried that Ellen would do something to harm it. (which she did in a way by stressing out Caprica. I hope to God that Tigh dumps ellen, the b**ch doesn't deserve anything after treating both of them the way she did.

From the jist of their conversation, I think baltar was trying to get Adama to supply his followers with weapons so he can defend galactica in the event of another rebellion, but I was left a bit "what exactly did they agree to?" in that scene.

I think that he was given weapons so that he could supply Dogtown with supplies and care without the gangs controlling everything. Kind of like Vigilantes.

What I don't get is how they are considered reliable enough to be given assault rifles. They're always referred to as freaks and such, and now they're vigilantes?

Finger13
February 20th, 2009, 08:02 PM
I obviously haven't seen the episode, but the thought of Ellen getting upset at Tigh because he was doing some serious data exchanging with Six was uncool. How was he supposed to know that she would download and it had been 18 months?

Ellen is vindictive and petty, always has been.

She started stressing Caprica out the moment she got there.

bfldworker
February 20th, 2009, 08:08 PM
What I don't get is how they are considered reliable enough to be given assault rifles. They're always referred to as freaks and such, and now they're vigilantes?

There is a saying I learned while in the Coast Guard. If the US were to ever be successfully invaded, our last true hope would be the street gangs. Meaning, normal people consider gangs "Freaks, terrors, unruly, dangerous and illegal". However you try to take over there territory that is when you see them do everything and anything to take it back.

I feel that way about Baltars followers. They may be strange, freakish and perhaps a danger. But I think they will prove to be a great asset in the end.

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Ellen is vindictive and petty, always has been.

She started stressing Caprica out the moment she got there.

I just thought a lot more of her after last week's episode. I was liking the whole idea that she was in reality this very practical down to Earth but near visionary in reality and that her whoring around with the entire fleet was the result of something that Cavil did to her personality as a really sick means of revenge.

Replicator Todd
February 20th, 2009, 08:11 PM
I don't like Ellen at all anymore! The Cylons leaving will just doom themselves! Its nice finally seeing Baltar with a gun. :)

bfldworker
February 20th, 2009, 08:16 PM
This episode had me scratching my head. Since "Sometimes a great notion" it has been packed with gritty, entertaining, aw inspiring material. And then we get to this episode. You go from mach 9 to screeching halt. Don't take this as I didn't like it. It is a part of the puzzle. But I felt with Ellen showing back up in Galactica it would have stirred the pot even more. But all it did was slow it down.

It was weird seeing Iron Clad Bill Adama distraught over how fragile Galactica was and that he needed to get help from the Cylons to fix her. I don't know what was more painful, Galactica falling apart or him needing to ask the Cylons for help.

What pissed me off was that the Final 5 were ready to cut and run. I do have to agree with the question. Why do Cylons always want to run.....

This episode was good, but it wasn't great like the previous 5 episodes.

Bruman
February 20th, 2009, 08:24 PM
12 Cylon models doesn't sound like enough genetic diversity to sustain a race. The purebred cylons might well have genetic diseases for being so closely related.

It's also not certain that cylon-cylon pairings will be fertile.

Seems to me that cylons need to stick with the fleet if they want to survive.

---

And Ellen is pretty petty. I expected this, but was still sad to see it. Nonetheless, it's understandable, or at least believable.

---

I wonder if President Rosslyn realizes that Caprica is the one that infiltrated the defense mainframe computers. Although I think she could warm up to cylons "in general," I don't think she could warm up to the exact person/personality who made it possible to nuke everyone.

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 08:25 PM
It was weird seeing Iron Clad Bill Adama distraught over how fragile Galactica was and that he needed to get help from the Cylons to fix her. I don't know what was more painful, Galactica falling apart or him needing to ask the Cylons for help.

I take it as he's finally coming face to face with his own mortality and prospect that the human race may very well die out. Sometimes it takes something relatively minor to drive home the events happening all around us. Galactica has been his baby for so long, he may have assumed that she'd be for many, many years to come.

Sela
February 20th, 2009, 09:13 PM
At least we know that Ellen is still the same old vindictive, spiteful, conniving, beeyatch that she always was.

Finger13
February 20th, 2009, 09:16 PM
I wonder if President Rosslyn realizes that Caprica is the one that infiltrated the defense mainframe computers. Although I think she could warm up to cylons "in general," I don't think she could warm up to the exact person/personality who made it possible to nuke everyone.

There was a deleted scene in Season 3 where Roslin talks to Caprica Six in the brig and Roslin asks her name, to which she replies "Caprica". Roslin figures the rest out. It may be deleted, but I think in this case it would still be canon.

Xepla
February 20th, 2009, 09:37 PM
As a female BSG fan, I would like to say that this episode made Ellen one of my favorite characters. This episode made her much more realistic and believable for me. YES, she is screwing things up.. but try to see it from her perspective. To be honest I would probably do the same thing.
She has been in love with Tigh for thousands of years, and tried many times to get pregnant with his child with no luck. Now all of a sudden, one of her own creations-- one of her own "children" in her eyes, has gotten the one thing she always wanted in her relationship with Tigh? And she is just supposed to be OK with this and NOT freak out or make someone pay? I don't think so. Even though they thought she was dead.. frack them. Emotions of that magnitude are not so easily managed; Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
You have to remember this feeling that Ellen is wrestling with the entire time... Betrayal of the worst degree.
She cannot help but harass Six about it. In a really twisted way, Ellen knows that Tigh was only with Six because it reminded him of her. So Ellen taunts Six with this knowledge.. Makes Tigh say he loves Six when Ellen knows he doesn't. It's very twisted, but very realistic, from someone who knows first hand how wicked women can be when they are hurt.

kharn the betrayer
February 20th, 2009, 09:53 PM
I think this episode pretty much proved Saul and Ellen are bad for each other more so than well pretty much every other episode the 2 are in...

Saul's become a much better person since Ellen has died(he certainly not the same guy he was in season 1/2 and even early 3) and while he did have that rough spot after he killed her he has shaped up quite well

and Ellen last episode was the complete opposite of how Ellen normally is

yet suddenly you toss the 2 together and all hell breaks loose

also I liked the scenes with Saul and Adama

and as much as I like Galen WTF at him wanting to jump ship I also hope he finds out what Tory did to Cally by the end of the season

Detox
February 20th, 2009, 10:02 PM
I guess Ron Moore completely forgot about the mutiny that happened only 2 episodes ago.

Arative
February 20th, 2009, 10:24 PM
I think this episode pretty much proved Saul and Ellen are bad for each other more so than well pretty much every other episode the 2 are in...

Saul's become a much better person since Ellen has died(he certainly not the same guy he was in season 1/2 and even early 3) and while he did have that rough spot after he killed her he has shaped up quite well

and Ellen last episode was the complete opposite of how Ellen normally is

yet suddenly you toss the 2 together and all hell breaks loose

also I liked the scenes with Saul and Adama

and as much as I like Galen WTF at him wanting to jump ship I also hope he finds out what Tory did to Cally by the end of the season

You can't discount that Ellen is two different people really. She's Ellen from Earth and Ellen that Cavil created with false memories. So that's why she seems like two different people. All the anger she feels towards Tigh because he choose Adama over her, is coming from Cavil-Ellen. I hope that she does get back to the Ellen we saw last week, cool, calm, collected.

I also thought it was funny, that when Tory, Saul, Ellen and Galen were fighting, the 6 and 8's basically acted like children when their parents fight. Since is a very sense, the 5 are their parents.

EvenstarSRV
February 20th, 2009, 10:39 PM
This episode had me scratching my head. Since "Sometimes a great notion" it has been packed with gritty, entertaining, aw inspiring material. And then we get to this episode. You go from mach 9 to screeching halt. Don't take this as I didn't like it. It is a part of the puzzle. But I felt with Ellen showing back up in Galactica it would have stirred the pot even more. But all it did was slow it down.

It was weird seeing Iron Clad Bill Adama distraught over how fragile Galactica was and that he needed to get help from the Cylons to fix her. I don't know what was more painful, Galactica falling apart or him needing to ask the Cylons for help.


I agree. I think Ellen the Final cylon coming back to the fleet should have been a major event, but she's greeted with a shrug and a 'here we go again with people coming back from the dead' kinda feeling. I wish there'd been a bit more discussions with the Final Five and less soap opera melodrama between Ellen, Tigh, and Caprica, though Six losing the child and Tigh's reaction was very well done.

I liked the parts with Adama continuing to agonize over the changes he's had to make to his ship, like he's losing the last reliable thing he's had since the world ended.

brthur
February 20th, 2009, 11:01 PM
- Baltar goes to Adama and convinces him to give his group assault rifles.
I wondered, what sort of "human solution" that would be, getting even bigger guns?


- Tyrol is all stressed out over Boomer, { ... } Boomer is currently in the brig.
I thought that might be the reason Chief Tyrol would want to leave Galactia, avoiding confrontation with Boomer.

brthur
February 20th, 2009, 11:10 PM
I obviously haven't seen the episode, but the thought of Ellen getting upset at Tigh because he was doing some serious data exchanging with Six was uncool. How was he supposed to know that she would download and it had been 18 months?

And nobody ever mentioned the things Ellen did with Cavil on New Caprica. The "swirl", ewh.

After "No Exit" i really thought, there was less bittch in Ellen, but this episode showed, she's not really a good person. Maybe that explains Tory :)

bfldworker
February 20th, 2009, 11:11 PM
I just got done watching it again. I am even more confused then before.

I understand why the Admiral had Boomer thrown in the brig. From Children of Kobol part 1 when she shot him. Betrayal of the highest order. He looks at all the crew as his children.

There is something gnawing at me about this episode. I felt as if there was going to be something huge and massive as the episode kept going. And then I realized it while watching next weeks trailer. There is a HUGE bombshell getting ready to drop in the life of Kara Thrace. Who is she What is she, how did she return????? If she an other unknown Cylon? Was she resurrected the like Ellen? Could she be a replacement for "Daniel"? Or is there really a higher power at work?

Which brings an other question. What the Frak is this whole thing with Roslin, Athena and Caprica sharing visions and dreams? Are they mentally connected? Is it a higher power? Or do we find out that it is a Cylon ONLY thing? Which implicates the possibility that all humans are Cylons or they are a "Blending" of Human Cylon?

There are SO MANY QUESTIONS that need to be answered in the next 4 episodes.

And while I am at it. I would love a movie based on the backstory of the Final 5 and there "resurrection" technology and there whole planet from 2 millennium ago.. I know it if off subject, but they are valid questions that I would LOVE to know the answers to.

brthur
February 20th, 2009, 11:22 PM
She has been in love with Tigh for thousands of years,

She said that and it felt wrong to me the same moment. They were traveling at near light speed, which made years go by on the outside world, but they still arrived in their lifetime.

Or did they resurrect repeatedly en route and didn't tell us? Seems at least possible, since got onto that ship by resurrecting in the first place.

But still, it would have been far less than "thousands of years".

Darth_Bicyclist
February 20th, 2009, 11:29 PM
Hooray for the Bear McCreary cameo! Bear rocks!

wontgetfooledagain
February 20th, 2009, 11:38 PM
Ellen is a crap disturber. She ruins everything. I thought after seeing her in No Exit that she would have matured having gained her memories back. Turns out she's just as naive and selfish as ever.
Hey, she's only human.

I noticed that Ron Moore showed multiple scenes of Adama supervising the repairs and lamenting over Galactica being a hybrid itself now. (Setting up the last scene where Adama and Roslin agree that a fusion of Cylon and Human cultures/circumstances has already happened.)
For awhile I was wondering if maybe Adama was the dying leader, because I'm sure he has cirrhosis of the liver by now...

From the jist of their conversation, I think baltar was trying to get Adama to supply his followers with weapons so he can defend galactica in the event of another rebellion, but I was left a bit "what exactly did they agree to?" in that scene.

I think that he was given weapons so that he could supply Dogtown with supplies and care without the gangs controlling everything. Kind of like Vigilantes.

What I don't get is how they are considered reliable enough to be given assault rifles. They're always referred to as freaks and such, and now they're vigilantes?
I think the idea is that the people have an inherent distrust of the marines. With civilians being the ones to distribute the food (and guard it, as well) there might be fewer disturbances.

What pissed me off was that the Final 5 were ready to cut and run. I do have to agree with the question. Why do Cylons always want to run.....
Could it be that though they think they know love, they don't know what duty means? It also seems that when Ellen was going on about how there is something Tigh loves more than herself or Caprica that she was really making quite a good case for Tigh without realizing it (I don't think I should credit her with using "Socratic irony"). Tigh, despite his past alcoholism, is really the most moral of all the Final Five -- he knows what it means to be dedicated to something bigger than himself. And when Ellen accuses Tigh of loving Adama more than she or Caprica? What an indictment it must be to be a friend!

I guess Ron Moore completely forgot about the mutiny that happened only 2 episodes ago.
Why do you say that?

You can't discount that Ellen is two different people really. She's Ellen from Earth and Ellen that Cavil created with false memories. So that's why she seems like two different people. All the anger she feels towards Tigh because he choose Adama over her, is coming from Cavil-Ellen. I hope that she does get back to the Ellen we saw last week, cool, calm, collected.
I don't think there is really an "Earth-Ellen" and a "Cavil-Ellen" -- she's just human, that's all. I think she was starting to come back to her senses towards the end of this episode. You may have noticed that when Tigh said that One-True-God stuff was nonsense, she told him it wasn't and she also started acting more kindly toward Tigh and Caprica as Caprica was lying in sickbay miscarrying. She's remembering that there are bigger things going on.

Wayston
February 21st, 2009, 01:18 AM
in order to break the cycle of destruction there needs to be a human/cylon fusion of civilisations... baltar's grouping is the antithesis to that... "I'm your last chance for a human solution" and "god loves you just the way you are" or whatever baltar said... he's a tool for whomever wants to keep humans and machines apart and at eachothers throats

metabog
February 21st, 2009, 03:13 AM
Next ep:

The rival gang gets even bigger weapons, so Baltar has to ask Adama for rocket launchers. He gets back only to find the rival gang now has BFG9000's. He goes back to Adama to ask for nukes, but when he gets back he find that the rival gang now has black hole cannons.

And so on.

peragrin
February 21st, 2009, 03:31 AM
As a female BSG fan, I would like to say that this episode made Ellen one of my favorite characters. This episode made her much more realistic and believable for me. YES, she is screwing things up.. but try to see it from her perspective. To be honest I would probably do the same thing.
She has been in love with Tigh for thousands of years, and tried many times to get pregnant with his child with no luck. Now all of a sudden, one of her own creations-- one of her own "children" in her eyes, has gotten the one thing she always wanted in her relationship with Tigh? And she is just supposed to be OK with this and NOT freak out or make someone pay? I don't think so. Even though they thought she was dead.. frack them. Emotions of that magnitude are not so easily managed; Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
You have to remember this feeling that Ellen is wrestling with the entire time... Betrayal of the worst degree.
She cannot help but harass Six about it. In a really twisted way, Ellen knows that Tigh was only with Six because it reminded him of her. So Ellen taunts Six with this knowledge.. Makes Tigh say he loves Six when Ellen knows he doesn't. It's very twisted, but very realistic, from someone who knows first hand how wicked women can be when they are hurt.
:jack_new_anime07:

quite right. And it is something that needed to happen.

Kobol was a human/cylon Colony. They separated and became 12 human, 1 cylon colonies on different worlds. Now they are starting again and are just beginning to realize it.

Any one else notice that Sam "died" when the caprica baby kicked, and when said baby died Sam came back. Maybe he had to download himself out of himself long enough for his body to heal. The cost was Tigh's kid.

Sela
February 21st, 2009, 03:57 AM
:jack_new_anime07:

quite right. And it is something that needed to happen.

Kobol was a human/cylon Colony. They separated and became 12 human, 1 cylon colonies on different worlds. Now they are starting again and are just beginning to realize it.

Any one else notice that Sam "died" when the caprica baby kicked, and when said baby died Sam came back. Maybe he had to download himself out of himself long enough for his body to heal. The cost was Tigh's kid.
Maybe in some weird way, the baby downloaded into Sam's body? That's what I initally thought when I first saw it, then brushed it away. But...you just don't know with this whole Cylon resurrection thing.

One thing that struck me when I rewatched it was Ellen having the nerve to get mad at Saul because he entered into a relationship with Caprica after she was dead. Ellen had frakked her way through the fleet when she was alive and Saul had stayed true to her. And I'm not so sure that aspect of Ellen was programmed in by Cavil. After watching her with Saul, I begin to think it was all naturally her.

wolverine_nl
February 21st, 2009, 03:59 AM
:jack_new_anime07:

Any one else notice that Sam "died" when the caprica baby kicked, and when said baby died Sam came back. Maybe he had to download himself out of himself long enough for his body to heal. The cost was Tigh's kid.

That makes sense actually ;)

omgpix
February 21st, 2009, 04:06 AM
in order to break the cycle of destruction there needs to be a human/cylon fusion of civilisations... baltar's grouping is the antithesis to that... "I'm your last chance for a human solution" and "god loves you just the way you are" or whatever baltar said... he's a tool for whomever wants to keep humans and machines apart and at eachothers throats

the angels are devils? :P could be, six always sounded like the one in the red pajamas.

huntress
February 21st, 2009, 04:20 AM
I never liked Ellen. She had always been a selfish, adulterous little ***** and her being downloaded didn't help at all. What she has done to poor Carprica and Saul was so typical of her and made me like her even less (hell and I felt a bit sorry when she was killed by Saul). I hope Saul will dump her and stay with Caprica. She is the better woman.

The episode was a bit on the slow side. Better the last week but not as good as the episodes before that.

Awesome-O
February 21st, 2009, 05:40 AM
Adama is sure getting sloppy with his drinking. In the last two episodes he slobbers as much whiskey on himself as he gets into his mouth.

I thought it was odd in this this episode that Tyrol who seemed to be firmly on the side of the fleet decided to flip flop. Even at the beginning of this episode, he identified Boomer to Adama seemingly aware that she would get sent to the brig. He has always been on the side of the fleet, then suddenly he votes to leave?

This is a great show, but I am wondering if I watched the entire series from start to finish, just how consistent it would be.

Still very much looking forward to the last few eps. There is a lot left to tell, if in fact most of the loose ends will be tied up by the end of the series as RDM suggests.

g.o.d
February 21st, 2009, 06:00 AM
this episode was quite boring and slow. But I loved Ellen, she was great

Arative
February 21st, 2009, 06:10 AM
Here is the watcher interview, pretty much a must read after episodes now

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-deadlock-jane-espenson.html#more

abc123
February 21st, 2009, 06:15 AM
"AND GUNS! MORE GUNS! BIGGER GUNS! BETTER GUNS! AND WHEN WE HAVE THOSE, WE WILL WIN!"

Ah, good ol' head-six-thru-Baltar oratory...

Awesome-O
February 21st, 2009, 06:37 AM
this episode was quite boring and slow. But I loved Ellen, she was great

I wonder if we're going to hear about the budget constraints again. It was still an interesting episode I thought, but it seems like the whole thing could have fit into 15 minutes.

Bicketybam
February 21st, 2009, 07:06 AM
You can't discount that Ellen is two different people really. She's Ellen from Earth and Ellen that Cavil created with false memories. So that's why she seems like two different people. All the anger she feels towards Tigh because he choose Adama over her, is coming from Cavil-Ellen. I hope that she does get back to the Ellen we saw last week, cool, calm, collected.

As suggested, she has two different memories from two different lives... before Cavil killed her and after Cavil resurrected her. Though even with the new memories I think the core Ellen would be what mostly drives her. Would Cavil seriously, trying to make his creators pay for making him in their image, set them up as husband and wife on the colonial worlds? He placed them into the colonies at different times to separate them, so I doubt he ever intended for them to wind up back together, yet some how Colonial Saul and Colonial Ellen met, fell (back) in love and married.

So for all her faults, the core elements that make her up are built into her personality, although there would have to be some messing around thanks to Cavil, and as mentioned by Arative that is what we see in the feelings she is expressing now. While in "No Exit" she seemed to have relaxed a little over the last eighteen months the rush of feelings from seeing her soul mate and then realising he had "moved on" and then finally realising not only had he moved on but he was having a child with what she considered her children, must have been just a little too much for her that she lost it a little and over-reacted and as much as I hated her in this episode for her *****iness, she probably handled it as well as anyone would suspect. Though what did count in the end was when the chips were down and Caprica Six was losing her baby, Ellens motherly, caring side shined through.

What I didn't like was how she reacted to Tigh when she found out he was to be a father with "their children" not because it was him but because they (the sixes) were the equivalent of their children. How was he to know? Unlike her, none of the others had gotten their full memories back. What will be interesting is to see how the other 4 handle things when/if they get their memories back and have both a mixture of old and new memories/personalities.

There was also some funny moments in there but the funniest would have to be Saul Tigh saying that his Grandfather had been a "power sander". That was pretty funny. :) Over-all not a bad episode, just a little slow. :)

Night Marshal
February 21st, 2009, 07:07 AM
After Last week I wasn't expecting a barn burner but I should be able to retire after the pace of this one. Looking at what we have seen of 4.5 so far its very uneven not sure if that is by design or just different writers having different approaches to scripts but as a whole Its left me wanting. And Dear goodness they must have been under time I mean how many times can Bill look up and be sad that his ship is getting fixed.

On the upside Cylons are imperfect I think that is important to show. Even the "good" ones. And the characters are honest...they are the worse parts of being human but they are honest.

I don't this one doesn't really inspire me nor do I really hate it. Its just kinda meh. I hope they saved enough money with this episode to make me happier down the road.

s09119
February 21st, 2009, 07:23 AM
Okay, I now hate this show again. Last night's episode was complete and utter crap... possibly the slowest and least-exciting thing I've watched on television in a while. After the string of amazing-ness we've had, I expected so much more from the writers, and this was just... dull. Even Ellen seemed boring and lame, and last week she kept me on the edge of my seat. And the predictability!

Here's hoping for a better showing next week...

anotherquestion
February 21st, 2009, 07:43 AM
What are we to make of, what seems to me, to be the biggest "conclusion" reached in this episode which was expressed by Saul Tigh ? That Cylons are too weak to thrive and survive on their own and so are Colonials, that the hybrid solution is the only one that is sustainable in the long term ?

Could this be the episode where Saul Tigh finally "wises up"? Throughout the entire series, we have seen many of his decisions, snap judgments, and first impressions be wrongheaded, petty, counterproductive and narrow minded.

When he took over after Adama was shot he almost brought the fleet to mutiny the first time. His instincts were to distrust Athena when the fleet was in imminent danger from a massive Raider attack (Season 2?). He used terrorist tactics on new Caprica that broke the kind of melding of Cylon and Colonial cultures that is now recognizably happening on Galactica itself. He killed Ellen and participated in the post Caprica kangaroo court (along with the three of the remaining final five).

It seems that his decision making has only taken a turn for the better after his his self-realization of Cylon-ness. He himself embodies the principle he is promoting--he is stronger and more capable as a meld of Human and Cylon than either being totally being in one camp or the other.

I think it is only a matter of time before Tigh ultimately pulls the plug on his toxic relationship with Ellen. I noticed that even during their passionate reunion, Saul took off his pirate's eyepatch--literally turning a blind eye one last time to Ellen. I don't think that will last much longer, particularly since the death of his only conceived child. It also seemed significant that Tigh started perceiving Ellen to be Caprica, rather than the other way around.

I wonder how things might have worked out on New Caprica if there weren't Colonial resistance ? The Cylons had not come in looking for carnage. It's true that it did not take long for the situation to spoil. Cavil seemed unconvinced from the beginning (which seems natural enough from what we know now). Tigh did more than anyone to light a match to any possible rapprochement.

But isn't the burgeoning cultural meld on Galactica being portrayed as the only way out for both cultures now that Resurrection technology is out of the picture?

Resurrection appears to lead to individual immortality at the cost of cultural stagnation. Procreation appears to lead to a "richer" culture, but at the cost of countless rounds of divisive bickering, splinter groups and inevitable self destructive power grabs, no matter how small the group shrinks down to.

Archaeis
February 21st, 2009, 08:16 AM
The fleet is about as far out as they have ever been now, right? They made a huge series of jumps to get to Earth, all in a striaght line presumably in a straight line away from where the colonies and Cylons were. And now they've been jumping off again in some random direction away from Earth, but still presumably not the direction they came from.

And the raptors are supposed to have fairly limited FTL drives. So how the hell did boomer find them in al of space with a limited distance drive?

xfairy1013
February 21st, 2009, 08:19 AM
I'm a bit confused by this episode... Caprica and Tigh's baby died, but is Caprica alive?
And in one of the last scenes we saw a Six near the pics on the wall, bur I didn't understand if she put up a pic herself or not?

And Baltar left me a bit perplexed too, going to Adama asking for guns... I wonder what's on his mind this time....

And why Tyrol wants to run away with the other cylons when he seemed to want to get back on the fleet? Oh my so many questions :beckettanime14:

g.o.d
February 21st, 2009, 08:29 AM
wizards

cameron1
February 21st, 2009, 08:37 AM
there seems an unsteady mix of cerebral answer-finding, emotional opera, and ass kicking. the shows have compartamentalized. if it's not the fault of the individual writers(which it should be), it should rest on the guy/s in charge of it all. something's amiss.

it's like the cylons' attempt to jump ship is metaphor for the writers of the show.


4 episodes left and they need to:

settle with cavil

find starbuck

find a planet(or blow up?)... interpretive...they can end it anywhere they please, i suppose, but it would feel like all the misery of the search for earth--and hence the show-- was really for nothing. No Country for Old Men was a fine movie, but despite the miseries of bsg, that's never what i felt in this show with the prophecies, fortune-tellers, and overall sense of destiny.

find baltar

continue baltar's rogues gallery

find hera

find sam

find daniel?


that's a long list for 4 episodes. so say we all.

Briangate78
February 21st, 2009, 08:46 AM
This episode was not that great. Too many holes in this episode. Why would Adama and Rosyln give Baltar's crew firearms? That is the least group they would consider giving firearms to. The whole Triangle with Ellen, Tigh, and Caprica 6 became way too overkill and it was way too predictable the outcome. I can understand what RDM was trying to do, but it was just something that we could of done without. The show seems to go off on these tangents and takes several eps to find it's way back. Sadly with only 4 eps left, it needs to get to the bottom of the back story of the cylons and Earth.

g.o.d
February 21st, 2009, 09:04 AM
This episode was not that great. Too many holes in this episode. Why would Adama and Rosyln give Baltar's crew firearms? That is the least group they would consider giving firearms to. The whole Triangle with Ellen, Tigh, and Caprica 6 became way too overkill and it was way too predictable the outcome. I can understand what RDM was trying to do, but it was just something that we could of done without. The show seems to go off on these tangents and takes several eps to find it's way back. Sadly with only 4 eps left, it needs to get to the bottom of the back story of the cylons and Earth.

I agree. But I was expecting this could have happened and honestly, after the last three amazing episodes, this one was a major letdown

Berg417448
February 21st, 2009, 09:18 AM
wizards

Yup. That's the only explanation that makes sense in the absence of a real one.

g.o.d
February 21st, 2009, 09:37 AM
Yup. That's the only explanation that makes sense in the absence of a real one.

what? They're real. I saw them on SGA in the last 5 years

knowles2
February 21st, 2009, 09:51 AM
The final five got biological tracking chips in them, enabling the final five to be track, the frequency was probably given to Boomer by elley or what ever her name is when they escaped the baststar.
We also know that the Raptors range can be greatly extended using Cylon technology. And boomer probably stuck every bit of fuel she could into the tank. We know the final five did not tell the cylons everything they probably did not mention the tracking device.

But Wizards are an acceptable solution to.

Ron Moor is also a **** writer that could not maintain rules in a universe if he had a gun pointed at his head and so skip silly details like. Unfortuantly true scifi fans see right through them, and see it as poor writing.

peragrin
February 21st, 2009, 10:09 AM
This episode was not that great. Too many holes in this episode. Why would Adama and Rosyln give Baltar's crew firearms? That is the least group they would consider giving firearms to. The whole Triangle with Ellen, Tigh, and Caprica 6 became way too overkill and it was way too predictable the outcome. I can understand what RDM was trying to do, but it was just something that we could of done without. The show seems to go off on these tangents and takes several eps to find it's way back. Sadly with only 4 eps left, it needs to get to the bottom of the back story of the cylons and Earth.

Well then you aren't very creative. Adama knows that the human population will revolt again If too many cylons are let aboard the vessels. he sees Gauis trying to help people. Without the quorum there are no leaders, and hence no civilians running the government. The people won't like that either. By arming Baltar he is setting up a chance for someone else who isn't military to help hold the population together.

Zamboni
February 21st, 2009, 10:09 AM
I'm still waiting for them to explain Baltar's condition and the significance of his projected Six. This episode was going nowhere. Sad to say it but it was just a filler.

Ellen = Cylon Cougar?

h22chen
February 21st, 2009, 10:18 AM
This one cracked me up

MadDog: "How many dead chicks are out there?" :sheppardanime21:

Berg417448
February 21st, 2009, 10:46 AM
This one cracked me up

MadDog: "How many dead chicks are out there?" :sheppardanime21:

Especially amusing since HotDog was standing right next to Starbuck when he said it!

Descent
February 21st, 2009, 10:52 AM
Okay, I now hate this show again. Last night's episode was complete and utter crap... possibly the slowest and least-exciting thing I've watched on television in a while.

Every show has its "not so great" episodes (so calm down :P) and after all the reveals we got last episode, I was hoping for some movement in the story. This was possibly one of the most uneventful BSG episodes ever. I realize they're saving up for the big finale but this was kinda ridiculous.

The worst episode of 4.5 (along with Disquiet).

capt. moroni
February 21st, 2009, 10:53 AM
Ellen loves Saul. That drives everything she does. She loves him and wants him, but ever since Bill saved him that day in the bar after hearing he flew vipers in Cylon War I, she had competition.

Her acting like a nut is her twisted way of vying for Saul's attention.

Descent
February 21st, 2009, 10:58 AM
Also, did anyone else find it strange that Tyrol was so quick on his decision to abandon Galactica for the Baseship? :S

After helping to stop the mutiny and helping out with the repairs, he was just like "OK! I'm outta here!". It just didn't seem right to me...

Briangate78
February 21st, 2009, 11:17 AM
I agree. But I was expecting this could have happened and honestly, after the last three amazing episodes, this one was a major letdown

I am sure the show will uptick again. You get these eps now and then. That is what happens with a serial show. The finale is 3 parts so that should be exciting. Wish the Stargates had at least a 2 part series finale. :S

talyn2k1
February 21st, 2009, 11:20 AM
So everyone's saying this was a slow episode, and they're right. But there are only 4 episodes left, and the action packed fare that has been the last few episodes isn't going to answer all the questions that need answering.
An exposition episode was absolutely necessary, even it was just to prepare for revealing the answers.

I always liked Saul since the beginning, as he was the most flawed character (along with Starbuck), and he has really just got even better since New Caprica and since finding out he is a Cylon.
Tigh was stuck between a rock and a hard place in this episode, and it was fantastic. He also still managed to retain his sense of humour with the 'my grandpa was a powert sander' comment, even he was drunk.

The only thing that felt wrong about this episode was Galen voting so quickly to abandon the fleet. He slowly isolated himself from the fleet after Cally's death and finding out he was a Cylon, and since the mutiny he has come straight back in to the fleet, back in his job as the Chief and keeping Galactica going.
I know the only reason for it was to initiate the deadlock and make Ellen the swing vote, but it just sounded wrong.

Despite all of the fleet's resistance to the merging of Cylons and Humans, it is already happening, as stated at the end of the episode. Tigh summed it up best, neither race can survive long term without the other. Cylons can't reproduce without total love, which is something you can't force, and humans just aren't strong enough to survive on their own.

I believe the end of this series is going to be fantastic, anything less is just not on.

hoof
February 21st, 2009, 11:33 AM
Maybe in some weird way, the baby downloaded into Sam's body? That's what I initally thought when I first saw it, then brushed it away. But...you just don't know with this whole Cylon resurrection thing.

One thing that struck me when I rewatched it was Ellen having the nerve to get mad at Saul because he entered into a relationship with Caprica after she was dead. Ellen had frakked her way through the fleet when she was alive and Saul had stayed true to her. And I'm not so sure that aspect of Ellen was programmed in by Cavil. After watching her with Saul, I begin to think it was all naturally her.

I don't think Tigh sleeping with Six bothered her. I think what bothers her is 1) the idea that Tigh might actually love Six, and much more importantly, 2) that six got pregnant. It isn't a rational thing, it's (as others have stated above) tied to the fact that she couldn't get pregnant, yet Tigh/six did.

What Ellen wanted for so long was a child of her own. The Significant 8 are a direct result of her attempts to have a kid w/o being able to do so biologically. Heck, her sleeping around might have been a subconscious attempt to get pregnant if her subconscious felt that it was Tigh's infertility that led to their lack of kids. Now that Six is pregnant, it's obvious that it's her that was the problem. Combine that with the fact that Six's existence represents her attempt to make children if she couldn't naturally have them, and it just fracks with her mind. And that is why she felt hurt, that in some way, the universe has condemned her to not have kids and it's totally unfair. And to top it off, it's the man she loves that "pointed it out" to her by getting six pregnant.

Now take all that, and add to it the fact that Ellen's personality is to lash out when she can't deal with something, and you get what we saw in the episode. Totally irrational, and totally "human".

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 11:38 AM
A lot of the discussion goes back to my argument that a series is always better off when they have a good idea as to where they're going in the story line. Maybe not as specific as B5, but a pretty darn idea as to what they'd like to happen to whom.

Think about what would have happened if RDM had known the Ellen/Cavil backstory. Think about what it would have been like to see as the very final scene of Exodus, Ellen's resurrection complete with the 'Everything's in place honey, we'll be resurrected' and 'I'd do it all again' sequence as she's downloading only to 'pop' there she is in the tank screaming and the credits rolls. Talk about a mind-frak. Gatworld.net would crash with all of the postings about the what-if. And then from Exodus to today, our slowly learning all of the gorey details of the Final Five and the human skin jobs and Cavil's deceit.

The could have even done a shot where Ellen is obviously interfacing with the Basestar, but for what purpose we don't know. Maybe to plant the seeds of revolt against Cavil, maybe something else.

Briangate78
February 21st, 2009, 11:40 AM
So everyone's saying this was a slow episode, and they're right. But there are only 4 episodes left, and the action packed fare that has been the last few episodes isn't going to answer all the questions that need answering.
An exposition episode was absolutely necessary, even it was just to prepare for revealing the answers.


Not all the eps have to be action packed. The episode No Exit where Ellen first comes back and Anders remembers was very interesting and contributing to the story. That episode kept me on the edge of my seat as I was listening to Anders talk about their past. There was revelation in that episode. We also found out that Ellen and the other 4 final cylons created the other models.

As per this episode, it just dragged and there was very minor things to contribute to the story. The episode basically did not go anywhere. It was one of those eps that could of been done away with and would not have effected the story or be put into another episode that was actually action packed.

hoof
February 21st, 2009, 11:41 AM
I am sure the show will uptick again. You get these eps now and then. That is what happens with a serial show. The finale is 3 parts so that should be exciting. Wish the Stargates had at least a 2 part series finale. :S

It's called "Pacing". Stuff only appears dramatic and epic if it's contrasted against stuff that's not. If we'd gone episode after episode, more and more dramatic and epic than the last, suddenly that would become the "norm" and become mundane, leading to a finale that doesn't seem that much better than the previous few episodes. But by bringing us down to earth with episodes like these, the contrast gets restored for the final episodes. Going from slow (like this episode) to Oh-My-Gosh is a lot better than back-to-back Oh-My-Gosh, where we'd get to the point by the end where we're yawning yelling "next!" and complaining that the finale was no better than the earlier episodes.

I love the fast-paced dramatic episodes, but without episodes like this to ground us and set the stage, the really kick-butt episodes lose a lot of their punch IMO.

Briangate78
February 21st, 2009, 11:45 AM
I love the fast-paced dramatic episodes, but without episodes like this to ground us and set the stage, the really kick-butt episodes lose a lot of their punch IMO.

Yeah but this episode was pretty boring, lol. Like I said above, "No Exit" was a good example of a slow paced episode being very interesting and enjoyable. :)

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 11:58 AM
You know at least BSG hasn't done any alien-possession, time-travel, or body-switching episodes. Although the thought of Cavil being 'accidently' downloaded into a Number Six body would be entertaining, not to mention just reward.

brthur
February 21st, 2009, 12:01 PM
That makes sense actually ;)
Er, no, to me it doesn't. I don't think resurrection works this way.

salmidach
February 21st, 2009, 12:38 PM
John has always known where they were, but due to the FF being on the Galactica he couldn't risk another direct attack due to the possibility of one of the FF being killed.. for although he is very angry he still revears his creators..

Bruman
February 21st, 2009, 01:01 PM
Anyone else notice that there was no opening sequence this time around. By that I mean the part that usually starts "The cylons were created by man...".

I was wondering if they would be using last week's sequence more, but now it seems they cut directly to "Previously, on Battlestar Galactica...". BTW, I like paying attention to whose voice they use each week for the "Previously" quote.

Detox
February 21st, 2009, 01:05 PM
This episode was not that great. Too many holes in this episode. Why would Adama and Rosyln give Baltar's crew firearms? That is the least group they would consider giving firearms to. The whole Triangle with Ellen, Tigh, and Caprica 6 became way too overkill and it was way too predictable the outcome. I can understand what RDM was trying to do, but it was just something that we could of done without. The show seems to go off on these tangents and takes several eps to find it's way back. Sadly with only 4 eps left, it needs to get to the bottom of the back story of the cylons and Earth.

I think the major problem is, in this episode, it seems like they're creating more arcs and plotlines, when they should be closing up plots and tying up loose ends.

No Exist answered a lot of questions, but Deadlock just throws a whole bunch of them back into the fray.

Adrius
February 21st, 2009, 01:13 PM
What were the assault rifles seen on the show last night? The ones with the red tinted scopes? They were pretty damned cool.

Thanks for any replies :)

Berg417448
February 21st, 2009, 01:52 PM
Looked like these to me:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/beretta_carbines.html

wontgetfooledagain
February 21st, 2009, 02:04 PM
A lot of the discussion goes back to my argument that a series is always better off when they have a good idea as to where they're going in the story line. Maybe not as specific as B5, but a pretty darn idea as to what they'd like to happen to whom.

Think about what would have happened if RDM had known the Ellen/Cavil backstory. Think about what it would have been like to see as the very final scene of Exodus, Ellen's resurrection complete with the 'Everything's in place honey, we'll be resurrected' and 'I'd do it all again' sequence as she's downloading only to 'pop' there she is in the tank screaming and the credits rolls. Talk about a mind-frak. Gatworld.net would crash with all of the postings about the what-if. And then from Exodus to today, our slowly learning all of the gorey details of the Final Five and the human skin jobs and Cavil's deceit.

The could have even done a shot where Ellen is obviously interfacing with the Basestar, but for what purpose we don't know. Maybe to plant the seeds of revolt against Cavil, maybe something else.
Meh, I like the fact that we don't find out about Ellen and Cavil and all that until nearly the end. One should not reveal all their cards too early.

Corona
February 21st, 2009, 02:21 PM
Little Gaius?

Hmmm! I wonder if there's any relation?

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 02:30 PM
Meh, I like the fact that we don't find out about Ellen and Cavil and all that until nearly the end. One should not reveal all their cards too early.

Here's the thing, Ellen was killed two seasons ago (about). It isn't about showing all the cards at once. If they had shown Ellen's resurrection two seasons ago, then it raises all sorts of questions and what not that could be revealed over the subsequent seasons. For example, think about all of the speculation if all we saw was the scene up to the point where she's screaming in the tank. Then a few episodes later, we see the second half of it where she asks the Centurion for help up with no one around and then Cavil comes in, she calls him John he replies that he doesn't like that name and then it cuts away and we don't see any more of the interchange. Think about the suspense and the speculation! Then over time the writer's craft the interchange between those two but do it in such a way that we see Cavil's "I'm a frakin' machine' speach" which Ellen respons to but not specifically stating that she created them until much, much later. She could make all sorts of statements such as 'John you were created with free will, the human cylons were created to bring an end to the Human-Cylon conflict." She could say the same things that we saw in the episode but in a way that doesn't share that she was behind it all. And then *WHAM!* after several interchanges over several episodes or two years, the moment when she holds out her arms to embrace him and says "I love you because I created you." CUT TO BLACK and the mid-season break. Think about the Mind Frak!

Or they go with a thing where they show the final scene and show one screen of credits (making you think that's all) and then cut to commerical. After the commericals, they show her with Cavill and the 'I love you' bit and then cut to black and finish the credits.

Night Marshal
February 21st, 2009, 03:10 PM
I think your right on HAL. It seems BSG has often gotten off track following often uninteresting or unrewarding stories, Baltar trail and Applo being suicidal come to mind. When the core of the and what drove the first season at least for me was the Cylons and the mythos behind the show. On some level I think its important enjoy the show for what it is. A snow ball that keeps getting bigger and more unwieldy as it grows and with no real plan for what to do with it when it gets there by its creators. It might work out in the end but Like the Iraq war its not because it was overly thought out before it started.

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 03:16 PM
I think your right on HAL. It seems BSG has often gotten off track following often uninteresting or unrewarding stories, Baltar trail and Applo being suicidal come to mind. When the core of the and what drove the first season at least for me was the Cylons and the mythos behind the show. On some level I think its important enjoy the show for what it is. A snow ball that keeps getting bigger and more unwieldy as it grows and with no real plan for what to do with it when it gets there by its creators. It might work out in the end but Like the Iraq war its not because it was overly thought out before it started.

See I had completely forgotten about Apollo being suicidal. In the real world, there's typically a long chain of events leading up to a suicide or attempt and its a long road afterward. What if the clues to Apollo being depressed and on the road to suicide had been planted over the course of several seasons where you see the clues, but don't recognize them as such until it nearly comes to fruition in his stuck in space?

As to Baltar, I must admit that I like how he seems to be moving from totally self-centered to not-nearly always self-centered (wanting to return during the mutiny), small move but still. Of course, if they had planned that from day one his story would have been completely different.

Briangate78
February 21st, 2009, 04:04 PM
Little Gaius?

Hmmm! I wonder if there's any relation?

Nah, it's not like Gaius has sleeped around or anything with countless woman. :p

Espeon1962
February 21st, 2009, 04:26 PM
I am going to weigh in on a few things discussed by you all:

I found the episode to be a little choppy; it almost appeared to me to be one of those eps the writers spun out quickly as they had other deadlines to meet. Just the feel of the pacing in the episode was off to me.

If Ellen had shown up I, as Admiral, or President and VP, would sequester myself in a room with her and not let her out until everything was known about the final five - human nature is so irresistibly curious that it is inconceivable to me that they would just let her off without asking her for a complete explanation on everything.

I also found the change of heart by Galen to be utterly unbelievable, and the only reasoning I can conceive behind it is so he has some heartache in the future over Sharon. Still to me it was poorly set up. He accepted the post of Chief again and there has always been a bond between he and the Admiral, irrespective of events, so this turnabout just flopped.

I noticed when Bill and the President were in the memorial hall watching the 6 place the picture, a group of pilots walked behind them, of which two were human and two were cylon, but they were walking as a group and there was no animosity (they were talking to each other as friends in a group do when on a stroll). Also it was revealed that Cylons were flying the CAP with humans due to the pilot shortage (some pilots in the brig I guess - we have no further info on the disposition of Sebastian Spence and others). So this seems to be indicative that mixing is already occurring, with many of the 6's and 8's (did not see many Lebs around) are already functioning in the fleet - thus the whole thing about the cylons voting to leave seemed to be a not so believable contrast.

Ellen, Ellen. My take at the end when she addressed Caprica about how Saul lover her and the baby was proof and its living was proof of the love was all a setup. I think Ellen knew that the baby would not survive, and this was a setup for her to drive a wedge between Saul and Caprica in the future.

While I do understand that she and Saul have a relationship going back immensely in the past, but they have been apart for 18 months, and furthermore, Saul does not really remember any of it, and his relationship started with Caprica before he ever had any memories, however fleeting, come back. She knows this, and even acknowledges the time apart, so the subsequent events and her sudden turnabout from rational individual last episode to scheming vindictive women this episode did not ring very true for me.


Why also was Caprica wandering around like a poor forlorn waif in Dogsville at the beginning? That was just stupid. Sorry, but she did not need the food, had no need to be in that area, and dressed like a bag lady, really? That was a poor excuse for a plot setup.

I have more to post, but will get his up first, have some dinner and come back for more!

Gatz
February 21st, 2009, 04:52 PM
Magnets people, magnets.

Detox
February 21st, 2009, 05:17 PM
Yeah, it seems like the consensus is that TPTB dropped the ball big time on it. It just didn't vibe at all with the quality of all the previous episodes. And knowing full well that this season was their last going in, having such a poor filler episode is simply inexcusable.

Did the person who wrote this episode not see the script or even the story for the last episode?

the fifth man
February 21st, 2009, 06:13 PM
Honestly, it doesn't even matter to me much. It was still a really good episode IMO.

the fifth man
February 21st, 2009, 06:20 PM
That is a very nice weapon.

OfF3nSiV3
February 21st, 2009, 06:24 PM
Hooray for the Bear McCreary cameo! Bear rocks!


where?!

Berg417448
February 21st, 2009, 06:46 PM
where?!

From Bear's blog:
http://www.bearmccreary.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bg418bearcameo.jpg

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 06:48 PM
Nah, it's not like Gaius has sleeped around or anything with countless woman. :p

How do we know that in the end its just Gaius with all of the Six's burdened with the task of fathering children by each and everyone of them?

Espeon1962
February 21st, 2009, 06:58 PM
I also noticed (which someone else picked up earlier in the thread but sorry, too far back to find to quote) that they did not have a unique opening credit like they did last episode. I really liked that and hope they do it again.

For all the people postulating on the Daniel - Starbuck connection. I noted this on the EW boards last week - when Ellen was describing the fate of the Daniels she specifically stated that all the "Daniel copies" were contaminated. But not by inference, the original. I am also wondering - there is an original Cavil, plus Ellen's inference of an original Daniel. So where are the first of each other model? I don't know whether they are in fact important but it has been inferred that there is one original of each model, and then copies are generated from the original. Are the first one of each model as self aware as Cavil? It would be an interesting plot twist with many possible facets if they are although maybe a little late in the story arc to make much of.

It seems like the preview for next week finally at least starts to address the Starbuck issue, albeit with some of the usual dramatic angst that normally just bores the hell out of me! It also appeared the Galactica is under attack at the end of the episode. Did anyone make out anything else in the preview?

Espeon1962
February 21st, 2009, 07:07 PM
By the way, was it just me or did it seem that when Ellen and Tigh were getting busy on the table, that when he looked up at her he was saw the white glow around her briefly? I thought that was the case, but I am still not able to make the connection between the "glow" and a specific emotion set or circumstance, as of yet.

MattSilver 3k
February 21st, 2009, 07:33 PM
This episode was about moments for me. The little awesome things helped detract from the whole story, and made this episode good. Not great, but good. For example, Baltar's gun speech, Adama and Tigh's reunion, and Tyrol and Boomer's little thing. All great moments in this episode.

Instead of looking at this episode as a disappointment (As some are), I'm looking at what plotlines come from it:
- Boomer: As seen in next week's promo, she'll have a little plot with Galen. She didn't get much screentime in Deadlock, but who knows what's coming next?
- Caprica losing Liam: May set up the Opera House vision to come true. Imagine, she snaps and tries to steal Hera! It might not end well with Athena on the loose though.
- Adama's Little Problem: The drinking, the pills, Battlestar problems. I have a good feeling it may lead somewhere...
- Baltar's cult: The ultimate redemption of Baltar may be coming up because of this episode. He and his cult may hold off a Cylon invasion inside the Galactica, and Gaius will be redeemed by dying or saving everybody. You never know...
- Sam waking up: More answers? I mean, Ellen wasn't sharing anything, and Sam may know something specific about Kara or something...

Some things did vex me, and that's probably why I'll rate this episode as less than stellar:
- How Ellen and Boomer found the fleet
- Why Tyrol wanted to run (But I suspect it's Boomer related)
- Mutiny aftershocks: Imagine if you will, if this episode lost some scenes and replaced them with interviews or interrogations of the some extra mutineers. More scenes with Lee in them as interrogator or somesuch, and maybe an appearance by Helo. These scenes could've shown some people, such as Narcho or Gage getting exiled from Galactica. I don't know, but it would've made things more intense and less soap-operish.

Anyway, can't wait for next episode. I'm thinking that No Exit, Deadlock and Someone To Watch Over Me are bridging to the finale, but that may be crazy thinking.

MattSilver 3k
February 21st, 2009, 07:34 PM
As any Firefly/Serenity fan would say: 'Shiny.'

Arative
February 21st, 2009, 07:38 PM
Yeah, it seems like the consensus is that TPTB dropped the ball big time on it. It just didn't vibe at all with the quality of all the previous episodes. And knowing full well that this season was their last going in, having such a poor filler episode is simply inexcusable.

Did the person who wrote this episode not see the script or even the story for the last episode?

This episode was written by Jane Espenson who is the showrunner for Caprica.

fwupow
February 21st, 2009, 07:50 PM
I agree with many others, that this episode was a little weak. I thought the series would keep driving hard right to the end.

I'm a little surprised that nobody seems to have picked up on the "Read Between The Lines" info that we were fed in this episode. I didn't catch it right-away either.

The events of this episode proved that, indeed, Cylons can not conceive a child unless both partners truly love one-another. Not only that, but if one partner stops loving the other, the fetus dies. Saul Tigh truly believed that Ellen was dead and therefore loved Caprica Six alone, but when Ellen came back, his love for her was resurrected and no matter how fervent his professions of love for Caprica 6 were, the subconscious truth must have initiated a signal to be sent wirelessly from himself to Caprica 6 which triggered a termination sequence of the fetus.

It looks as though the original Cylon programmers wanted to ensure that every Cylon child be born into a well-bonded family, to parents who love each other and stay together. The programming is clearly effective although simplistic.

Does anybody else find it a little out of character for Adama to give Baltar and his cult a bunch of automatic weapons? Adama has never had much use for Baltar or religious people. Everybody knows that the only people more likely to commit terrorism than True Believers are True Believers with guns. There will be a killing bonanza in the near future, I'm sure of it. Get ready to lose some main characters soon!

Did Anders download back into his old body?

fwupow
February 21st, 2009, 08:03 PM
Some things did vex me, and that's probably why I'll rate this episode as less than stellar:
- How Ellen and Boomer found the fleet
- Why Tyrol wanted to run (But I suspect it's Boomer related)


Yes, yes. Same things raised my eyebrow. If Boomer can find it so easy, what's to stop Cavil from finding the fleet if he so desires?

I've noticed many times before that there are many frequent and convenient about faces by characters, even within a single episode that don't quite add up. Dramatic license is all well and fine, but sometimes it seems to get a little out-of-hand on BSG. Tyrol suddenly wanting to cut and run off with the Cylons is a good example.

In regard to Baltar's gun speech, I thought it would have been funnier if he had stuttered and looked back to Inner #6 with a much more puzzled expression when she started feeding him words about getting guns.

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 08:14 PM
Well I finally saw it for myself after sitting in Panera Bread for 3 hours downloading it...I really need to get cable...

-I really did not like what they did to Ellen between last week and this week. I honestly thought that she had some depth to her and this week just makes her out to be this petty little b***h. I really liked the idea of Cavil having tampered with her memories/personality to make her into the Battlestar Tramp as punishment.

-I would have liked a scene where Adama and one of the Colonial-Cylons have a conversation about changes, the future and the past. Something that acknowledges all of the past between the Humans & Cylons and the fact that a blending of the two is the only hope for either and it doesn't mean for a moment that it won't be a difficult road. Mentioning also that its a lot easier to nuke your enemy or run from them than to live and cooperate with them.

Detox
February 21st, 2009, 09:21 PM
I love that gun. It simply looks amazing, and I always had a thing for Berettas.

That said, in real life, that gun, The CX4 Storm, is a terrible military weapon. First off, it's not an assault rifle, it's a carbine. Secondly, it's a glorified pistol. It's a nice weapon, but it doesn't pack much power.

But in the world of Sci Fi, looks is all that counts, and the CX4 has that pat down.

Yipster
February 21st, 2009, 09:22 PM
I think it obviously means the Cylons know exactly where they are and have always.
But i'd say something to do with not being able to resurrect has bought the fleet some time.

hoof
February 21st, 2009, 10:17 PM
Little Gaius?

Hmmm! I wonder if there's any relation?

It's obvious that Gaius himself wasn't sure. Obviously he didn't remember the woman, but he was visibly shaken by the possibility that the kid is his, which is part of why he tried to get all those people fed, IMO.

I don't think we'll ever get a definitive answer, but I love that the writers threw that possibility at us.

Ulkesh47
February 21st, 2009, 10:27 PM
A decent episode with some annoying details.
Chief among those details is the implication that "love" is what made it possible for Tigh to have a baby with Caprica Six, and why Tigh couldn't have one with Ellen.

xfairy1013
February 21st, 2009, 11:45 PM
Also, did anyone else find it strange that Tyrol was so quick on his decision to abandon Galactica for the Baseship? :S

After helping to stop the mutiny and helping out with the repairs, he was just like "OK! I'm outta here!". It just didn't seem right to me...

I'm with you on that, I can't find a good reason for him for being so quick in deciding to leave... maybe we'll get a good explanation for that too... maybe it has to do with Boomer being back? Mmm...


I am sure the show will uptick again. You get these eps now and then. That is what happens with a serial show.The finale is 3 parts so that should be exciting.

3 parts? I'm going to die of an heart attack before the end!! zomg only 4 eps left *runs in circles*


Wish the Stargates had at least a 2 part series finale. :S

You and I both :mckay:

GateTrek2004
February 21st, 2009, 11:47 PM
Yes, yes. Same things raised my eyebrow. If Boomer can find it so easy, what's to stop Cavil from finding the fleet if he so desires?

Cavil probably doesn't want to risk confrontation until he had resurrection tech. back. I'm thinking if there is no way then he might just say screw it and just attack the fleet.

wontgetfooledagain
February 22nd, 2009, 12:58 AM
Here's the thing, Ellen was killed two seasons ago (about). It isn't about showing all the cards at once. If they had shown Ellen's resurrection two seasons ago, then it raises all sorts of questions and what not that could be revealed over the subsequent seasons. For example, think about all of the speculation if all we saw was the scene up to the point where she's screaming in the tank. Then a few episodes later, we see the second half of it where she asks the Centurion for help up with no one around and then Cavil comes in, she calls him John he replies that he doesn't like that name and then it cuts away and we don't see any more of the interchange. Think about the suspense and the speculation! Then over time the writer's craft the interchange between those two but do it in such a way that we see Cavil's "I'm a frakin' machine' speach" which Ellen respons to but not specifically stating that she created them until much, much later. She could make all sorts of statements such as 'John you were created with free will, the human cylons were created to bring an end to the Human-Cylon conflict." She could say the same things that we saw in the episode but in a way that doesn't share that she was behind it all. And then *WHAM!* after several interchanges over several episodes or two years, the moment when she holds out her arms to embrace him and says "I love you because I created you." CUT TO BLACK and the mid-season break. Think about the Mind Frak!

Or they go with a thing where they show the final scene and show one screen of credits (making you think that's all) and then cut to commerical. After the commericals, they show her with Cavill and the 'I love you' bit and then cut to black and finish the credits.
I guess I can see where you are coming from, but I'm not really that big on the "mindfraks" -- nearly every episode of Lost is a mindfrak and it gets tiring as the show just becomes a parody of itself. Granted, I am sure it can be done well, but I just don't really think it is necessary. I like the fact that we only found out that Ellen was the Fifth Cylon when the four Fifths found out. It strikes me as being a bit more subtle

ipp0
February 22nd, 2009, 04:22 AM
Ellen Tigh is from Earth. She would know the way.

Gatz
February 22nd, 2009, 04:39 AM
I think it obviously means the Cylons know exactly where they are and have always.
But i'd say something to do with not being able to resurrect has bought the fleet some time.

It makes sense. If they try to attack the fleet they risk losing forever entire basestars full of cylons, specially now that the fleet has its own basestar

STC
February 22nd, 2009, 06:30 AM
This one cracked me up

MadDog: "How many dead chicks are out there?" :sheppardanime21:

that cracked me up. Also loved the line" Grampa was a power sander!"

STC
February 22nd, 2009, 06:37 AM
By the way, was it just me or did it seem that when Ellen and Tigh were getting busy on the table, that when he looked up at her he was saw the white glow around her briefly? I thought that was the case, but I am still not able to make the connection between the "glow" and a specific emotion set or circumstance, as of yet.

he saw her briefly as Caprica.

Bruman
February 22nd, 2009, 06:37 AM
OMG! An epiphany for me. I didn't really buy into the "Cylons need Love to Reproduce," and just took it as Cylon self-mythology, but maybe it really is true.

My theory is that Ellen may have deliberately made it so that love (or the feeling of love) is required to reproduce, so that cylons who are angry like Cavil can't. She's obviously proud of the fact that she's given free will and "something so much more important:" which might be the capacity to love. So the hope is that Cylons will be capable of love and those will be the ones that can reproduce.

Remember that she told Saul "she really needs to hear that you love her." Maybe that was much more than "she would really like to hear that you love her."

Bruman
February 22nd, 2009, 06:39 AM
"Grampa was a power sander!"

"How many dead chicks are out there?"


Ditto! Probably my two favorite lines this week! Those were great.

STC
February 22nd, 2009, 06:45 AM
Some thoughts and comments to all..........

1) I'm rusty on the history, so I don't remember how Boomer got away, so somebody remind me.

2) where are Helo/Athena and Hera??

3) I don't buy the "all it takes is love to make a baby'. doesn't any else find it odd that they could build 'skinjobs", but didn't have the technology to give Gaeta a prosthetic limb? We have it, why didn't they? We have technology to prove fertility; why didn't they??

4) I find the whole discussion and use of the term 'One True God' a little disquieting because I would have thought in a world or time where science has evolved to such a high degree that the characters (or in this case the writers!) would not default to such an easy way out.

Espeon1962
February 22nd, 2009, 07:37 AM
Some thoughts and comments to all..........

1) I'm rusty on the history, so I don't remember how Boomer got away, so somebody remind me..

Remember, she was shot and died in Galen's arms way back in Season 2.


2) where are Helo/Athena and Hera??

Thats one of those annoying details I think lots of us are wondering. I thought that maybe that was Athena at the hospital bed with the eight and the final five when they were voting on leaving or staying, but she was never addressed by name and when she spoke she did not "act" like Athena so I concluded it was not her.


3) I don't buy the "all it takes is love to make a baby'. doesn't any else find it odd that they could build 'skinjobs", but didn't have the technology to give Gaeta a prosthetic limb? We have it, why didn't they? We have technology to prove fertility; why didn't they??

This love thing has me vexed as well. I did postulate in an earlier post in this thread (post #74) that I thought that Ellen's whole speech at the end where she was telling Caprica that the baby living was proof of Saul's love was all a setup for her to drive a wedge between Saul and Caprica when the baby died, as she knew it would die, and now when I think about it, maybe love is a prerequisite, and Ellen knows that if the machine side of the cylons senses confusion about the love, then the baby aborts.

I always found it annoying that with all the technology about, Gaeta never got a new limb nor Saul a new eye. One of those plot holes we just have to live with.


-I would have liked a scene where Adama and one of the Colonial-Cylons have a conversation about changes, the future and the past. Something that acknowledges all of the past between the Humans & Cylons and the fact that a blending of the two is the only hope for either and it doesn't mean for a moment that it won't be a difficult road. Mentioning also that its a lot easier to nuke your enemy or run from them than to live and cooperate with them.

I totally agree about the fact this conversation should have occurred by now. It goes to my point I made earlier in this thread (#74) about their letting Ellen just go about her business without questioning her completely on all the information she knows, as it is obvious she has the ability to fill in so many blanks. We saw in past episodes that the rebel Cylons usually had one cylon "elected" to be the spokesman and negotiator with the humans (ex Natalie) so who is fulfilling that role now? The whole interaction seems somewhat haphazard, and I doubt a machine based race would progress in that manner.

Post is getting long so going to stop, although lots more comes to mind. Some good points made by many that I would love to debate further!

Darkside_Six
February 22nd, 2009, 07:57 AM
It's a cool looking gun, but it's anything but an assault rifle. It's a civilian semi-automatic submachine gun, which actually packs less firepower than the standard BSG pistol (an FN Five-Seven).

lordolorin
February 22nd, 2009, 08:04 AM
This blending of the cylon-human crew is coming more and more often in the shows, as in this one. They obviously want to show that they have to be together to survive. So to draw a conclusion, and to place blames..., I think that for everything that happened is fault of the Lord's of Kobol!
Think about it, they crated all of them. Well humans created cylons, but lord's created humans, but cylons were accepted as another human tribe, 13th, and received the Lord's love bla, bla, bla....
Lord's were deeply hurt that they eventually all left from them, and with all this they wanted to put thing right again, to show them they cannot live apart each other, or to punish them all for leaving Kobol, or both...
Well... that's just one of my theories....

HAL2100
February 22nd, 2009, 08:10 AM
I guess I can see where you are coming from, but I'm not really that big on the "mindfraks" -- nearly every episode of Lost is a mindfrak and it gets tiring as the show just becomes a parody of itself. Granted, I am sure it can be done well, but I just don't really think it is necessary. I like the fact that we only found out that Ellen was the Fifth Cylon when the four Fifths found out. It strikes me as being a bit more subtle

The trick is to hold of on the mind fraks and use the sparingly. Lost is getting a bit tiresome to the point where I'd love to make a two hour movie where its nothing but 'We don't have to the time, Jack, we have to go now' and other whatnot where it all turns out to be getting the main character to his son's birthday party. A total farce of it.

HAL2100
February 22nd, 2009, 08:11 AM
OMG! An epiphany for me. I didn't really buy into the "Cylons need Love to Reproduce," and just took it as Cylon self-mythology, but maybe it really is true.

My theory is that Ellen may have deliberately made it so that love (or the feeling of love) is required to reproduce, so that cylons who are angry like Cavil can't. She's obviously proud of the fact that she's given free will and "something so much more important:" which might be the capacity to love. So the hope is that Cylons will be capable of love and those will be the ones that can reproduce.

Remember that she told Saul "she really needs to hear that you love her." Maybe that was much more than "she would really like to hear that you love her."

I'm liking that theory, ensure that love is pervasive in the race before the race propogates.

HAL2100
February 22nd, 2009, 08:14 AM
4) I find the whole discussion and use of the term 'One True God' a little disquieting because I would have thought in a world or time where science has evolved to such a high degree that the characters (or in this case the writers!) would not default to such an easy way out.

What if its true?

Independent from that which is easier for the characters of the series to believe in - multiple gods at odds with one another and thus its human versus cylon OR one God overall all the humans and the cylons implying that he is acting on behalf of both races

Back40
February 22nd, 2009, 09:07 AM
3) I don't buy the "all it takes is love to make a baby'. doesn't any else find it odd that they could build 'skinjobs", but didn't have the technology to give Gaeta a prosthetic limb? We have it, why didn't they? We have technology to prove fertility; why didn't they??

Not really, the technology to build "skinjobs" lay with the 13th Tribe and, eventually, with the Final Five, not with the Colonials. Other than some special technology surrounding space travel, the Colonials really aren't any more advanced than we are. Prosthetic limb? Well, that's a specialized piece of work and maybe there's no-one left in the fleet with the knowledge. Technology to prove fertility? I'm thinking you maybe meant to say technology to IMprove fertility? Well, that depends on the physiology of the skinjobs. What if they are genetically engineered to NOT be able to carry a fetus without the physiological and hormonal changes that come with the belief that we are truly loved or "in love"? (And yes, there are changes in human physiology that come with these "conditions" :p )


4) I find the whole discussion and use of the term 'One True God' a little disquieting because I would have thought in a world or time where science has evolved to such a high degree that the characters (or in this case the writers!) would not default to such an easy way out.

Easy way out of what? Are you saying that in a time or world where science is well-advanced that belief in gods or a god wouldn't/shouldn't exist? :beckettanime14:

Berg417448
February 22nd, 2009, 11:06 AM
Ellen Tigh is from Earth. She would know the way.

We have no evidence they are still near earth. Tigh told D'anna that the fleet was preparing to jump away from earth at the end of Sometimes a Great notion. Adama told Gaeta to locate the nearest G, F, or k star sytems and then tell them to ask th ecylons if they want to join the fleet. From the webisodes we know they did an emergency jump from somewhere and then jumped back after the false alarm but we have not seen exactly where they are.

Mamid
February 22nd, 2009, 11:14 AM
I too think Anders started to download into the only available cylon matrix and as part of the download process, started to speed up the child's development rate which caused a problem and started the entire miscarriage process. The Tigh/Tigh/Cap scene was just a red herring.

SoulReaver
February 22nd, 2009, 11:31 AM
And what was with Chief? He seemed to be coming back to the fleet, yet wanted to jump away?yup noticed that too. major plot inconsistency
anyway it was good to see head6 again :tealc: ("and guns !" rofl)


I hope to God that Tigh dumps ellen, the b**ch doesn't deserve anything after treating both of them the way she did. yeah but Tigh shouldn't be with Cap6 either. Baltar+Cap6 would make things come full circle (it was this relationship that caused this whole **** so perhaps it could end it too, go fig)

fwupow
February 22nd, 2009, 11:48 AM
Some thoughts and comments to all..........

2) where are Helo/Athena and Hera??



Good question. They've been totally absent for at least the last two episodes.

If you look at the very last scene where Adama and Roslin are looking at the picture memorial wall and taking notice of the new Cylon pictures, Adama puts his hand out and touches one of the pictures and it's a Colonial Fleet I.D. of a Cylon model #8.

I was watching the episode for the 3rd time and paid closer attention. This time my eyes bugged out and I thought "OMG, Sharon Agathon is dead!"

What other model #8 has Colonial I.D.? We know Boomer is alive.

If Athena, and maybe Helo too, are both dead, that would start paving the way for Caprica 6 to end up with custody of Hera wouldn't it?

Maybe I'm just reading something into the last scene that isn't there. The writers are fond of giving us ambiguous hints that may or may not pan out.

fwupow
February 22nd, 2009, 12:01 PM
Nevermind about Athena being dead. I played the scene frame by frame and there are actually two #8 I.D. photos and they are simply "Security" badges/cards, which all Cylons would likely have been issued when coming aboard the Galactica.

fwupow
February 22nd, 2009, 12:25 PM
Need dialog help please.


Starbuck and Tyrol at bar scene:

KT: Hey, when did you get a piano?

Tyrol to bartender: Gin

KT to Tyrol: You see Ellen and Tigh on the wing of that bird? It was like watching my parents make out. You go see Boomer in the brig yet?

Tyrol: No.

KT: You should go when she's asleep. ???and watch Sam and Tigh just couldn't handle the fun anymore???


I couldn't make out the last sentence that Starbuck spoke.

BTW: I think Bear McCreary is sitting at table behind Starbuck.

RDAfan61
February 22nd, 2009, 12:47 PM
I think she said that she sat and watched Sam sleep till she couldn't take the fun any more.

It is him. He talks about it on his blog.

ipp0
February 22nd, 2009, 01:02 PM
We have no evidence they are still near earth.

In "Deadlock", you can see the constellation Orion in the background. So either they are still next to Earth, or quite close.

Berg417448
February 22nd, 2009, 01:18 PM
In "Deadlock", you can see the constellation Orion in the background. So either they are still next to Earth, or quite close.

You would be able to see Orion from a great distance away and it would still look like Orion. In fact, somene has pointed out that during the cylon civil war battle the constellation Orion was visible in the background.

Orion and other familiar stars have appeared in many episodes:
http://www.galactica-science.com/battlestar/blog/astronomy/constellations-in-season-4/

The fact is that the writers flubbed this one unless they tell us about a secret cylon tracking device.

fwupow
February 22nd, 2009, 01:54 PM
I think she said that she sat and watched Sam sleep till she couldn't take the fun any more.

It is him. He talks about it on his blog.

Thanks a lot! That makes sense.

She said, "I watched Sam until I just couldn't handle the fun anymore."

fwupow
February 22nd, 2009, 02:23 PM
Why did Liam die?

The clues are in the following scenes/dialog.

START OF PRIVATE MEETING CALLED BY ELLEN SCENE

Saul: Thanks for seeing me alone. I just uh, I have to talk to you uh,,

Ellen: Of course.

Saul: Ellen. Hate me. I'll take it, but this is bigger than that. Galactica needs the baseship.

Ellen: Why did you even make love to me Saul when your real love was at home?

Saul: Did you even hear what I said?

Ellen: Bill needs the baseship. I heard you. Did you hear me? Her brush is where mine used to be. My dresses are gone. She shares our bed! Do you remember I got us that mattress?

Saul: You went to my quarters?


[Galen enters room.]


Tyrol: Not interrupting?

Ellen: Not at all. I was expecting you.

Saul: You, you called him?


[Tory enters room.]


Ellen: Good. Come on in. You too Caprica.

Saul: What is this?

Ellen: We're joining the baseship. All of us.

Ellen to Tory, #6 & #8: We can jump away from the fleet whenever you're ready.

#8: Thank you.

Ellen: It's the right decision.

Saul: No! No, it's not. No!

Ellen to Saul: The vote is you and Anders versus me, Tory and Galen. Caprica, obviously that means you have to come too. Wouldn't you like to raise your child where it's safe?

Caprica: I want him to be safe, yes.

Saul: She doesn't understand what this means.

Ellen: I used to think Hera was the only hope for us but, clearly that's just not true anymore.

Saul: No. Her baby, he's pure Cylon. If we go off and make some pure Cylon culture--that's what happened on Earth and it led to disaster. Pure human doesn't work. Pure Cylon doesn't work. It's too weak.

Ellen: You just don't want to leave the one you really love.

Caprica: What? Talk to me. What is this?

Saul: It's petty and vile!

Tory: Enough. She's voted. When's the jump. We can be ready in an hour.

Saul: Well I'm not goin'.

Tyrol: We agreed on majority rule.

Saul: Well frak, apparently we invented majority rule but I don't remember it, so frak that!

Caprica: Saul, don't let her.

Saul: Alright go. Go! All of you. Caprica, go. Go be pure and safe and whatever the frak. I'm not goin'.

Ellen to Caprica: Do you see little girl? There is something in the universe that he loves far more than you or me and that's Bill Adama.

Saul: You don't even want to go. This is all to hurt me.

Ellen: It's Bill Adama and the ship and the uniform and everything else takes second place.

Saul speaks on top of Ellen: How can you sink so low? Why are you doing this?

Ellen continuing: I knew I did (take 2nd place), but I always wondered if the baby would. Guess I know now!


Caprica moans and drops to the floor in pain.

Caprica: (unintelligible)

Tyrol: Get Cottle. Get Cottle. Get Cottle. Got to get her to sick bay.

END OF SCENE



NEXT SCENE (Dr. Cottle's ER)

Cottle: I've never seen anyone get into trouble so fast, but he's fighting back. That's all I can tell you.

Ellen to Caprica: I didn't mean this.

Caprica: Yeah, you did.

Cottle interrupts: Here. [puts oxygen mask over Caprica's face] This may help increase his heartrate.

Ellen: No.

Saul: You knew how I'd have to choose. You knew what it meant.

Ellen: I'm sorry. Of course Cylons and humans need to stay together, but I always intended, I just, I didn't think. Saul. I only wanted to hurt you, not her.

Saul: You didn't think how it would hurt her if I let her go? It never occured to you?

Ellen: No.

Saul: No wonder we had to invent some compassionate god for them to believe in! We couldn't have them deify us could we?

Ellen: We didn't invent anything.

Caprica growling: Just stop!

Ellen to Caprica: I'm, I'm so sorry. Maybe, I just shouldn't be here.

Saul: First intelligent thing you've said.

Ellen to Saul: Talk to her. Tell her you love her. It's what she needs. It's what the baby needs.

Saul: Caprica. Listen. I love you. Alright? Can you hear me? This is nonsense.

Ellen: Saul...

Saul: She knows it. I shouldn't need to say it. I shouldn't need to say it to anyone! Isn't it enough that I feel it?

Ellen: Just tell...

Saul: I feel it, for her, for you, for Liam. I shouldn't need to spout the words. I feel it less with words. ???Doesn't it mean God's damn feel it and I'll feel love frakkin' roam???.

Cottle: His heart rate is dropping. I've got signs of distress all over. It doesn't look good.

Saul: I am so sorry.

Caprica: Cut him out. Even it it kills me, he'll live if you cut him out right now. Cylon babies must be strong right? Hera was born early. Cut him out.

Cottle: I am not cutting you. Forget it. He'll never make it. Four months? No.

Caprica: Please...(starts crying)

Ellen: Caprica. Listen. I have to tell you. He loves you more than he ever loved me. You are the mother of his son. The boy is alive. I can see his heartbeat on the monitor and that's proof, proof he loves you. He loves you so much, it's shining out of him. You and he can stay on Galactica. I'll go away with the others and you can be together--a little family. I promise it.


[Heart monitor flatlines]


Cottle: That's it. I'm sorry.

Saul: No! No that was me. That was me. I take it back. I'm sorry

Cottle: The lady and I have some work to do here now...

Saul: No!

Cottle continuing: it's time for you to leave. You have to go now. Nurse!

Saul: No.

Caprica: (starts crying)

Cottle: Nurse. No. Out. Now

Ellen: Saul (ushers Saul away from bed). She's in good hands.

END OF SCENE
===============================================

Caprica dropped her bowl of gruel and doubled over in pain when Saul and Ellen had sex.

When Ellen showed Caprica that everything else in Saul's life took second place in his heart to Bill Adama, the uniform and the ship, Caprica dropped to the floor in even greater pain.

In the emergency room, Ellen seemed certain that the solution to saving the baby was for Saul to convince Caprica that he loved her.

When Ellen made the self-sacrificing gesture to leave with the other Cylons and let Caprica have Saul all to herself with Ellen out of the picture, the baby flatlined. Why? Saul said it himself; "It was me." Ellen's gesture made Saul feel more love for her and the thought of losing her must have made him secretly resent the situation he was in or simply feel stronger love for Ellen.

Some sort of wireless signal had to have been transmitting from Saul to Caprica 6 and in turn to the unborn child. It was Saul's more intense love for a woman other then the child's mother that killed Liam. This is the only explanation that I've come up with that meshes with the dialog.

ZeroPoint
February 22nd, 2009, 03:35 PM
In "Deadlock", you can see the constellation Orion in the background. So either they are still next to Earth, or quite close.

I agree with Berg417448.
Do some math, remembering that space is BIG (closest Orion start is 17 light years away). That view might even be Orion from the back side for all you know. As precise as you can get with just looking at stars still has a margin of error of about 10 light years radius (arbitrary figure). Sensors seem to work on the thousands of kilometers scale, so that makes about a million jumps to find it by accident.

I've done some scale modeling of solar system and nearby stars. IIRC, sun to Earth at about 3 inches, sun to Pluto at 54 feet, and Alpha Centauri at 60 miles.

HAL2100
February 22nd, 2009, 05:21 PM
The prosthetic leg issue might be related not just a lack of skilled persons to make it, but also a lack (or restriction) of raw materials. I'd think that keeping someone alive or a ship running would take a slightly higher priority.

Replicator Todd
February 22nd, 2009, 05:48 PM
Honestly, it doesn't even matter to me much. It was still a really good episode IMO.

Agreed!

Mongoletsi
February 22nd, 2009, 05:53 PM
Carbines are used by law enforcment agencies so that the round doesn't go through and into a bystander (a rifle round runs that risk). So in fact, they're ideal for the job actually.

Although, why the hell would Adama arm Baltar et al? Makes no sense.

Mongoletsi
February 22nd, 2009, 05:59 PM
The final five got biological tracking chips in them
Erm, no.

Ron Moor is also a **** writer that could not maintain rules in a universe if he had a gun pointed at his head and so skip silly details like. Unfortuantly true scifi fans see right through them, and see it as poor writing.
Ah, now I get it :D

Mongoletsi
February 22nd, 2009, 06:02 PM
To all the folks saying "oh Cylons always know where the others are".

That is seriously untrue. As shown in 33.

Futhermore, it's stated very clearly on New Caprica. Gina detonated the nuke, allowing the Cylons to find The Fleet.

If the Cylons always know where the others are, then Adama would have had no choice but to airlock Athena.

This does require explaining though. Failing imaginary locator chips and the like, I think Wizards are actually the only logical explanation!

wontgetfooledagain
February 22nd, 2009, 06:06 PM
Although, why the hell would Adama arm Baltar et al? Makes no sense.
Civilians don't trust Marines.

Easter Lily
February 22nd, 2009, 06:15 PM
I didn't mind this episode actually... I gather that it's a transition episode. So the Galactica has turned into a metaphor for this blending and I suppose they're trying to whack us over the heads that there's an uneasy truce between the cylons and the humans that could go "kaboom" anytime. I get that. But arming civilians... don't know about that and Chief wanting to go off with the others? Doesn't sound right to me. Unless of course he's thinking he can live happily ever after with Boomer if they find their own little piece of paradise some where.

I don't think it was entirely fillery. Of course it was really about 40 minutes of letting Anders have his coma and then come back "from the dead". :p

ipp0
February 22nd, 2009, 11:57 PM
You would be able to see Orion from a great distance away and it would still look like Orion.

Well, I guess that depends on how you define "near" and "great distance away". As in, you said we have no evidence they are "near" Earth. Jumping 4 ly normal to the direction of orion, even Bellatrix (Orion's right shoulder) would move about one degree on the sky. For comparison, the Moon is about half a degree. The closest stars are more than 4 ly away. This would be clearly noticable in the shape. Of course, jumping exactly in direction of Orion would cause more subtle changes.

In "Sometimes a Great Notion", the fleet is still on Earth. In "A Disquiet Follows my Soul", they started upgrading the jump drives. As a response, there was the mutiny, which ended with finding Galactica's fractures. In "No Exit", Tyrol tells Adama not to jump her for a while. As of this episode, the ship is still being repaired.

The only possibility I see for having jumped is between Notion and Disquiet. So I would rather say there is no evidence they are not still next to Earth.

Mongoletsi
February 23rd, 2009, 03:02 AM
Civilians don't trust Marines.

So give Civvies weapons, because they're paranoid? What a silly thing to say.

Mongoletsi
February 23rd, 2009, 03:06 AM
It was fairly heavily implied that the Fleet (and friend) jumped after Gaeta did a search for relevant planets, and Adama gave his speech. But then, we don't know for sure.

If they were still by Earth though, I think that'd be shown in external shots.

I think they've jumped.

AutumnDream
February 23rd, 2009, 04:03 AM
Ron Moor is also a **** writer that could not maintain rules in a universe if he had a gun pointed at his head and so skip silly details like. Unfortuantly true scifi fans see right through them, and see it as poor writing.

Heh, he is actually a very good writer for not caring about BS fantasy mechanics and just servicing the story as it pertains to the characters.

Descent
February 23rd, 2009, 04:15 AM
heh, he is actually a very good writer for not caring about bs fantasy mechanics and just servicing the story as it pertains to the characters.

qft! :p

Cathara
February 23rd, 2009, 07:07 AM
Very interesting points raised by matching the dialog to the theory of Cylon Love = Baby, loss or lessening of love = Miscarraige.

It does seem to fit! All in all, whether it is true or not, the characters obviously believe it is true. Which means NOT a good reaction coming down the line from Caprica Six. Her model has never shied away from violence, so I'm thinking there are going to be some fireworks, sooner or later.

My favorite funny line(paraphrasing):

Baltar: Ladies, show them we are armed. Go ahead.

{June and Paula reveal their weapons}

Baltar: Take it off the safety, June!!!

The signs of humanity blending with the Cylon rebels were throughout the episode - the cylon and colonial style ships flying out to inercept the viper containing Boomer and Ellen caught me off guard. So strange when you compare it to where all of this began.

I agree that the Cylons do tend to cut and run WAAY too much. Obviously a flaw in their programming. Yet another reason to argue for blending the two races - the end result to hopefully contain the best of both.

I'm looking forward to seeing how next week's ep covers the relationship between Boomer and the Chief.

BIG QUESTION - and I may have just missed this. Does Boomer know that the Chief is one of the Final Five? That he is Cylon?

In the last episode, when Boomer was crying out in pain about who she could possibly love - she said something like, "Who could I love? A human? Why would I want to do that?" - which made me think that she is still thinking of/loving the Chief and thinking that he is human...

AND will there be the creepiness factor for Galen - Boomer is technically one of his "children" - although, granted, Galen doesn't have all his memories back yet.

I can't wait for next week!!!!!!!!

Descent
February 23rd, 2009, 07:53 AM
BIG QUESTION - and I may have just missed this. Does Boomer know that the Chief is one of the Final Five? That he is Cylon?

I think it's safe to say that either Cavil or Ellen told her who the five are.

wontgetfooledagain
February 23rd, 2009, 08:09 AM
So give Civvies weapons, because they're paranoid? What a silly thing to say.
When it's Us vs. Them, you would rather have Us distributing food than Them. Interesting how it works both ways, but I would bet the civilians trust other civilians with the food more than they trust marines.

thevarrior
February 23rd, 2009, 08:38 AM
That's not an assault rifle, just FYI. But yes, it looks cool, although the Israeli weapons are my personal favorite. They look like laser guns.

thevarrior
February 23rd, 2009, 08:41 AM
It doesn't really matter - it served to further the plot. For all we know, Cavil knows exactly where the fleet is but won't dare to attack without the safety net of resurrection. That, and the other four of the final five are there and if they die, resurrection tech dies.

thevarrior
February 23rd, 2009, 08:42 AM
Ron Moor is also a **** writer that could not maintain rules in a universe if he had a gun pointed at his head and so skip silly details like. Unfortuantly true scifi fans see right through them, and see it as poor writing.

This sentence might have merit if it wasn't completely ignorant and off the mark. I'm sorry, I meant it has NO merit whatsoever. The episode was written by Jane Espenson, NOT RDM.

Mongoletsi
February 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM
This sentence might have merit if it wasn't completely ignorant and off the mark. I'm sorry, I meant it has NO merit whatsoever. The episode was written by Jane Espenson, NOT RDM.

Muhahahaetc :)

Schrodinger's Cat
February 23rd, 2009, 04:10 PM
Maybe they asked the ship's hybrid?

Mongoletsi
February 23rd, 2009, 04:32 PM
Maybe they asked the ship's hybrid?

That's the only solution I can think of too - the Hybrids always seems to know where other Hybrids are. But I thought dealing with them meant dealing with nonsense? The possibility exists that Ellen holds some sway over 'em however.

This has to be explained, along with how The Fleet and The Cylons all ended up in the same place and why The Fleet lost power, etc. Oh and what happened to Roslin, etc. So many questions...

But yeah, I'm thinking it's the Hybrids.

Bl4de
February 23rd, 2009, 04:42 PM
So I'm rewatching this over and over, I don't get what Baltar proposed to Adama and why he armed the civilians?

I understand the Sons of Ares are bullying Dogsville, but, what was the revolution Baltar talked about? What does he hope to accomplish? And why does Adama believe this won't result in a blood bath on his ship?

wontgetfooledagain
February 23rd, 2009, 04:49 PM
My guess has been that the civilians trust other civilians more than they trust the marines and Adama knows this.

Berg417448
February 23rd, 2009, 04:50 PM
I think it stems from some scenes that were cut from the episode in which the possibility of using Cylon Centurions as security was discussed. A lot of Galactica's Marines are dead or cannot be trusted due to the mutiny. Security isn't what it should be so they considered centurions. Baltar proposed the arming of civilians as the last "human" solution to the problem.

The fact that the scenes were cut and the idea isn't really explained contributed to the viewer's feeling that it makes no sense at all.

Here is what the writer had to say:

Why would Adama -- with Roslin and Lee's apparent agreement -- give Baltar's fringe faction lots of large guns? I know Adama hasn't been himself lately, but this seems like a bad idea.


"Adama is having trouble maintaining order on the ship. He lost a lot of marines during the mutiny. If he doesn't get some sort of force that can keep the civilians under control, he will have to consider using Centurions from the base ship, and he fears a civilian insurrection if he did so. Baltar says that this is the last human solution, and Adama has to agree. "

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-deadlock-jane-espenson.html#more

daniel9
February 23rd, 2009, 05:01 PM
Well it looks like RDM, doesnt see the Baltar storyline being better than the Ellen,Tigh,Caprica6 storyline like most ppl here did for this ep. The Deadlock podcast is up. And not much can be garnered from it. I wish he'd explain about these head characters already. Hm, he doesnt speak of the cut scenes from this ep either.

Mongoletsi
February 24th, 2009, 02:03 AM
Why use Centurions? Skinjobs are tougher than they look, but would be more "acceptable", especially if issued with Colonial uniforms.

I suppose arming Baltar's civilians is no different to arming disparate Kurdish groups in Iraq, or sympathetic militia in Afghanistan.

Mongoletsi
February 24th, 2009, 02:04 AM
Why use Centurions? Skinjobs are tougher than they look, but would be more "acceptable", especially if issued with Colonial uniforms.

I suppose arming Baltar's civilians is no different to arming disparate Kurdish groups in Iraq, or sympathetic militia in Afghanistan.

Wyrminarrd
February 24th, 2009, 06:36 AM
Why use Centurions? Skinjobs are tougher than they look, but would be more "acceptable", especially if issued with Colonial uniforms.

I suppose arming Baltar's civilians is no different to arming disparate Kurdish groups in Iraq, or sympathetic militia in Afghanistan.

Skinjobs can be killed with a knife while a Centurion would probably just look at you funny if you came at it with a knife :)

Plus I´d imagine that the number of skinjobs has fallen to low levels and that they´ve all turned chicken now that resurrection is out of the picture.

Mongoletsi
February 24th, 2009, 07:26 AM
Skinjobs can be killed with a knife while a Centurion would probably just look at you funny if you came at it with a knife :)

Plus I´d imagine that the number of skinjobs has fallen to low levels and that they´ve all turned chicken now that resurrection is out of the picture.

1. Yes they can be killed by a knife, but are harder to kill than humans.
2. There's demonstrably loads of 6s and 8s left - Galactica had what, 200 Marines? I reckon there's easily that many skinjobs.

But fair points though mate, I'm not disagreeing outright.

cameron1
February 24th, 2009, 08:05 AM
it'd be the cherry on top, if anders wakes up as a baby

Vis Uban
February 24th, 2009, 01:05 PM
1. Yes they can be killed by a knife, but are harder to kill than humans.
2. There's demonstrably loads of 6s and 8s left - Galactica had what, 200 Marines? I reckon there's easily that many skinjobs.

But fair points though mate, I'm not disagreeing outright.

Those poor rebels. Yet another job for them to do. One wonders whether they should be getting paid for all this... With dozens of them already swarming over the human's battlestar trying to literal keep the ship from falling apart, not to mention the upgrades to the humans' FTL drives, the humans go to them again:

"Uh yeah, you see, We can't keep control of our own people, so could you, like, send over some more of your people over to keep us from descending into anarchy, you know, again?"

Also, considering what's happened to more than a few of the 2s, 6s, and 8s since they met up with the fleet...would you want to be a security guard for the humans if your were a Cylon?

It's funny though, how both sides ended up needing each other to survive. Back in Season 1, I never would have guessed that this would happen.

akuma07
February 24th, 2009, 03:03 PM
I was dissapointed with the way ellens script was written. Given her reinvention in the last episode which was very well written, harking her back to a spiteful heavy drinking little tart given her grander status was a tad stupid.

I dont really see the point in Baltars character anymore, its a tad pointless, but I suppose it fills a few mintues with easy to write, low cost events.

I had a quick read over next weeks events and it seems we'll finally get some good stuff and maybe dare I say it, a few answers!

Nylon
February 24th, 2009, 03:24 PM
I was dissapointed with the way ellens script was written. Given her reinvention in the last episode which was very well written, harking her back to a spiteful heavy drinking little tart given her grander status was a tad stupid.




I think that was the idea, they cylons are not that different to humans, they are capable of complex thought about the nature of their place in the universe but on the flipside are also burdened by petty jealousy and the need for vengeance (cavil)

Descent
February 24th, 2009, 03:44 PM
I dont really see the point in Baltars character anymore, its a tad pointless, but I suppose it fills a few mintues with easy to write, low cost events.

Those scenes with Baltar are actually one of the few things I enjoyed about this episode. His character arc this season has been one of redemption and its nice to see him finally become a somewhat likable guy.

If the 'visions' are any indication, he still has an important part to play in the episodes ahead.

HAL2100
February 24th, 2009, 04:22 PM
it'd be the cherry on top, if anders wakes up as a baby

He'd have to go through puberty again and his voice changing. Not to mention that ... other thing.

Back40
February 24th, 2009, 07:26 PM
He'd have to go through puberty again and his voice changing. Not to mention that ... other thing.

Pon Far? :D :D

HAL2100
February 25th, 2009, 03:39 AM
Pon Far? :D :D

Going from a turtle neck to a crew cut.

Skydiver
February 25th, 2009, 04:16 AM
oh please :rolleyes:

thevarrior
February 25th, 2009, 06:54 AM
To summarize my thoughts - this episode was crap, it had no redeeming quality in my eyes. Tyrol's defection made no sense the way it was written, it might have been more plausible if they had built up to it, but he had JUST been made the Galactica chief and saved the ship. He LOVES the Galactica. Ellen's character did a complete 180 from her No Exit performance and went back to being snippy and whiny, and the whole Six/Tigh subplot with the baby went straight down the drain.

And just for the people who think that it was somehow meaningful - RDM made it clear in his podcast that they needed to scrap the subplot somehow because they were going nowhere with it. They never had a goal for it and now it was going straight to hell.

In all - one of the worst episodes I've seen on Galactica. Terrible characterization, no thanks to Espenson, and some of the worst editing and directing I've seen. I'm appalled.

cameron1
February 25th, 2009, 09:17 AM
He'd have to go through puberty again and his voice changing. Not to mention that ... other thing.

the baby died the same time brain dead anders awoke. just saying...why not embrace the derail?

fwupow
February 25th, 2009, 11:54 AM
I think the last few seconds of the show were meant to be prophetic. Sharon Agathon / Athena is going to die.

Things are going to end up back where they started with Boomer and Tyrol together.

It's hard to keep track of who's who, what with all the memory sharing going on. I mean, Athena has Boomer's memories up to a certain point and I forget what point that was.


In regard to the civvies with guns issue: Even if Adama doesn't have enough Marines to maintain law and order, it's not likely that he'd just hand a bunch of religious radicals a crate of guns without training. First he'd recruit and train new marines.

Even if Baltar's harem can be trusted to use the guns in a lawful, ethical fashion, without training and a small arms locker, it won't be long before they "fall" into somebody else's hands.

This is to be expected in BSG. You can't have high drama without having people behave irresponsibly, irrationally and sometimes downright senselessly.

Back40
February 25th, 2009, 07:13 PM
going from a turtle neck to a crew cut.

roflmao!!!

Back40
February 25th, 2009, 07:19 PM
This is to be expected in BSG. You can't have high drama without having people behave irresponsibly, irrationally and sometimes downright senselessly.

Why not....it happens often enough in real life, we've all seen people do irrational, irresponsible and downright senseless stupid things under a lot less stress than the characters in BSG. Simple case of art imitating life. :)

GateTrek2004
February 25th, 2009, 08:21 PM
I think the last few seconds of the show were meant to be prophetic. Sharon Agathon / Athena is going to die.

Things are going to end up back where they started with Boomer and Tyrol together.

It's hard to keep track of who's who, what with all the memory sharing going on. I mean, Athena has Boomer's memories up to a certain point and I forget what point that was.


In regard to the civvies with guns issue: Even if Adama doesn't have enough Marines to maintain law and order, it's not likely that he'd just hand a bunch of religious radicals a crate of guns without training. First he'd recruit and train new marines.

Even if Baltar's harem can be trusted to use the guns in a lawful, ethical fashion, without training and a small arms locker, it won't be long before they "fall" into somebody else's hands.

This is to be expected in BSG. You can't have high drama without having people behave irresponsibly, irrationally and sometimes downright senselessly.

I would probally think up to the Miniseries ends, as of the Episode "33" The Sharon that eventually will become Athena Meets Helo on Caprica, and has all of Boomer's Memories to that point

Pharaoh Atem
March 2nd, 2009, 02:40 AM
worst episode of the series

Matt G
March 3rd, 2009, 02:21 PM
1. Ellen + Tigh + Caprica was always going to = messy. Didn't think Liam would get scratched though!

2. I can't blame the Five for wanting to bail, given the various grievances but still...Anders surely said they needed to stay in the fleet for a reason.

3. Baltar and crew as unofficial enforcers...fair enough.

4. The First(Not Final) Five were originally human. That's something people need to remember when talking about their behaviour!

Good ep though.

HAL2100
March 3rd, 2009, 03:45 PM
4. The First(Not Final) Five were originally human. That's something people need to remember when talking about their behaviour!

Sometimes a Great Notion established that the inhabitants of Earth were Cylon. There's no evidence otherwise to support that some were human.

wontgetfooledagain
March 3rd, 2009, 08:43 PM
Sometimes a Great Notion established that the inhabitants of Earth were Cylon. There's no evidence otherwise to support that some were human.
Still, there's no reason to think that skinjob behavior is inherently different from human behavior, except in the instances such as when Boomer shot Adama.

Matt G
March 5th, 2009, 02:13 PM
Sometimes a Great Notion established that the inhabitants of Earth were Cylon. There's no evidence otherwise to support that some were human.

The Colonials are basing their theory on the Cylonness of Earth on what exactly? Minor physiological differences? Could be down to evolution for all anyone knows.

Berg417448
March 5th, 2009, 03:00 PM
The Colonials are basing their theory on the Cylonness of Earth on what exactly? Minor physiological differences? Could be down to evolution for all anyone knows.

According to the show it was based upon cylon "protocols"....whatever that means. Baltar needed a nuke for his detector but apparently the cylons have different means...or so we were told.

Matt G
March 8th, 2009, 03:07 PM
The Cylons see themselves as machines. Hence their reference to 'protocols'. They're looking for specific gene sequences which may be based on humanity having evolved not quite so much.

Replicator Fifth
March 11th, 2009, 06:38 PM
Two Words: Patrick Currie

he made this relatively slow episode totally worth it. and his portrayal of Enzo (though a precious few clips) was phenomenal for such a minor character. other then that this episode was hard to get into. Though I LOVE BSG still... was still missing something. oh well basicaly deserves the rating it got...o_o


(Patrick is GOD! bow before his genetic perfection!)

Replicator Fifth
March 11th, 2009, 06:39 PM
The Cylons see themselves as machines. Hence their reference to 'protocols'. They're looking for specific gene sequences which may be based on humanity having evolved not quite so much.

Was wondering about that! thanks for the clarification!

Pharaoh Atem
March 20th, 2009, 10:02 AM
why was kelly in the brig and not abaord the Astral Queen???

lxtn
June 29th, 2009, 05:04 PM
I know Six has changed a lot since the beginning, and I am sorry she lost her baby, I've been there. But I can't help thinking that there is a kind of poetic justice, remembering the baby she killed on Caprica. She may not have meant to do it, or she may have, which is so cruel, especially when the poor mother would have spent the last day of her life grieving....