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GateWorld
February 2nd, 2009, 05:39 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/415.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">NO EXIT</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 415</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
A bullet lodged in Sam's brain brings out his latent memories of Cylon history and the Final Five, which he tries to share with the others before his surgery. The last Cylon is resurrected on Cavil's baseship, and fights against becoming a pawn in his twisted agenda.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Skydiver
February 13th, 2009, 06:54 PM
LOLOL

PC is a doctor????

I laughed out loud at that bit of casting.

seriously though, cool eps, i'm sure some will find it boring, but there's a lot of plot necessary info being dumped, and things have to be put into place for the finale

Finger13
February 13th, 2009, 06:58 PM
LOLOL

PC is a doctor????

I laughed out loud at that bit of casting.

seriously though, cool eps, i'm sure some will find it boring, but there's a lot of plot necessary info being dumped, and things have to be put into place for the finale

Hahahaha, I thought that having PC was awesome. And he was just as quirky in BSG as he is in the commercials. Epic.


Poor Galactica. Being infused with Cylon technology?

And the Final Five created the Humanoid cylons? One of the Cylon models was poisoned by Cavil? Interesting stuff here. Cavil has some extreme issues.

And Lee is President now. Wow, amazing episode.

This wraps up a lot of loose ends

rarocks24
February 13th, 2009, 07:00 PM
No, Sam :(

I hope Ellen saves him. :(

And yay Boomer. Broke free from Cavil's mindwash. :D

kingzing
February 13th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Awesome episode. I knew the PC guy as a brain surgeon (lol). Cool Cylon history lesson, it really added some depth to the show. BSG is so good, I didn't know it was possible for it get better.

peragrin
February 13th, 2009, 07:00 PM
that is yet another awesome episode.

Do not forget Kara's father was an artist. Odds are kara is the first of the new hybrids.

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Daniel...... wow

walterIsTheMan
February 13th, 2009, 07:00 PM
We learned a lot of info in this episode. I think given the evidence presented that:
Starbuck is the daughter of Ellen and this "Daniel" cylon.

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 07:01 PM
We learned a lot of info in this episode. I think given the evidence presented that:
Starbuck is the daughter of Ellen and this "Daniel" cylon.

Fully agree. When she was describing him it just clicked. It would explain why Kara knew what the Eye of Jupiter was/looked like and why she would draw it constantly on New Caprica. It's gotta be that he is her father and she is the first human and cylon hybrid.

Zamboni
February 13th, 2009, 07:02 PM
John Hodgman is a Cylon! I knew it!

So wait, where did the Cylon tech come from? Did the Centurians come up with the stuff? Why didn't they have FTL?

EvenstarSRV
February 13th, 2009, 07:03 PM
LOLOL

PC is a doctor????

I laughed out loud at that bit of casting.

seriously though, cool eps, i'm sure some will find it boring, but there's a lot of plot necessary info being dumped, and things have to be put into place for the finale

LOL! I had the same reaction. :)

Talk about an info dump though, but you're right, after the mutiny arc they needed a slower episode to set things up again.

I wonder who the 'Daniel' cylon is suppose to be though?
The reference to him being a artist makes me things it was Starbuck's father, which may sorta explain how she came back from the dead.

Sela
February 13th, 2009, 07:03 PM
LOLOL

PC is a doctor????

I laughed out loud at that bit of casting.

seriously though, cool eps, i'm sure some will find it boring, but there's a lot of plot necessary info being dumped, and things have to be put into place for the finale
Lots of info -you can say that again! My head still hurts...

LOL! The PC fixing the Cylon - that was a good one!

Smashing Young Man
February 13th, 2009, 07:03 PM
Screw everything else . . . PC! And he acted just like he does in the commercials. I wonder if that was intentional?

rarocks24
February 13th, 2009, 07:06 PM
We learned a lot of info in this episode. I think given the evidence presented that:
Starbuck is the daughter of Ellen and this "Daniel" cylon.

No. I think one of the other five managed to get at least one Daniel away from Cavil. And that Daniel was found by Starbuck's mom, who we met in the Leoben flashbacks. Could Daniel have been presenting himself in the form of Leoben in her memory/flashback in Maelstrom?

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 07:06 PM
that was a good hour of TV. Was over before I knew it. Got some good answers about who created the skin jobs. Found out about a boxed number 7, who is an artist. I'm guessing that it has to be Starbuck despite them using Daniel as a name. Her father played the piano which is a type of artist but we've seen Starbuck as painter.

We found out that the "angels" ie, head 6 and head baltar were appearing to the final 5 on Earth 2000 years ago before Earth was attacked and about their lives on Earth.

So was it, humans that attacked Earth 2000 years ago or something else?

Interesting that they are going to use cylon tech to fix the Galatica. Reinforces the metaphor that humans and cylon's are going to have to work together to survive and fix themselves.

I honestly don't know how they are going to tie everything up in remaining episodes. Oh and the new beginning was sweet, a little set up for Caprica showing TOS Cylon's

the missing 7
February 13th, 2009, 07:06 PM
so my name is Daniel ...cool




oh and this ep should have been called "revelations"

so much info

kingzing
February 13th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Then you must be a Cylon ;)

SG1Commander
February 13th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Fully agree. When she was describing him it just clicked. It would explain why Kara knew what the Eye of Jupiter was/looked like and why she would draw it constantly on New Caprica. It's gotta be that he is her father and she is the first human and cylon hybrid.

I assume you meant to say Caprica. Starbuck was held hostage by Leoban for the entire occupation of New Caprica, so i don't think she had much time to draw.

the missing 7
February 13th, 2009, 07:10 PM
Fully agree. When she was describing him it just clicked. It would explain why Kara knew what the Eye of Jupiter was/looked like and why she would draw it constantly on New Caprica. It's gotta be that he is her father and she is the first human and cylon hybrid.
I'm pretty sure that Kara is Daniel. Ellen even said that Cavil did things to his amniotic fluid which altered it's DNA, so it's quite likely that Kara is Daniel. She is artistic, she seems to know things about the cylons, she resurrected, and has a 'destiny'. Maybe her destiny is to show that cylons can evolve and be more 'human' than machine.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 07:11 PM
PEOPLE! Details! Now!...must have fix, can't wait till tommorrow...withdrawl symptoms kicking in.... Green to the first person that gives the full and complete unadulterated low down on it all... SPOILET BABY!

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 07:12 PM
I assume you meant to say Caprica. Starbuck was held hostage by Leoban for the entire occupation of New Caprica, so i don't think she had much time to draw.

Yea.. my mistake. It's just been a while since I've seen those episodes so I'm trying to go off of memory.

the missing 7
February 13th, 2009, 07:14 PM
PEOPLE! Details! Now!...must have fix, can't wait till tommorrow...withdrawl symptoms kicking in.... Green to the first person that gives the full and complete unadulterated low down on it all... SPOILET BABY!
we know the 7th name is daniel

the final 5 where created by the people on kobal

the 5 created the 7 cylons we've been following

ellen created resurrection

cavils real name is "john"

the galactica is dying

galen is the chief again

sam remembers everything from his past

ellen escaped
all i got

rarocks24
February 13th, 2009, 07:16 PM
the final 5 where created by the people on kobal

I thought the five were just some higher ups working in the thirteenth tribe, and that the Cylons that would become the thirteenth tribe were created by the Kobolians.

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 07:18 PM
we know the 7th name is daniel

the final 5 where created by the people on kobal

the 5 created the 7 cylons we've been following

ellen created resurrection

cavils real name is "john"

the galactica is dying

galen is the chief again

sam remembers everything from his past

ellen escaped
all i got

Slight correction.. The Final 5 are the survivors of Earth/Cylon (the colony) after it was destroyed. So there were more Cylon models on Earth that we never got to see. The final 5 are the only ones that lived because they embraced the resurrection. (resurrection was long forgotten by the Cylon tribe and the Final 5 were the ones that reinvented in and improved upon it. They had a ship in orbit around Earth when it was nuked).

The Final 5 created 8 cylon models in order to halt the war with the humans of the 12 colonies. The final 5 made a deal with the centurions to make the 8 models to bring about peace. It didn't work. 1 model, Daniel, was boxed because it was flawed --- apparently the allusions to Daniel being Starbuck or Starbuck's father are strong. Cavil was the first skinjob created by the 5. He turned on the 5 and planted them into the human population in order to make them suffer for making him like humans.

But essentially you're correct.

the missing 7
February 13th, 2009, 07:19 PM
I thought the five were just some higher ups working in the thirteenth tribe, and that the Cylons that would become the thirteenth tribe were created by the Kobolians.
i could be wrong thats how i remembered it

this is definitely a ep to watch more then once :)

i could be wrong

Sela
February 13th, 2009, 07:23 PM
i could be wrong thats how i remembered it

this is definitely a ep to watch more then once :)

i could be wrong
There was a lot to keep straight. I'm going to watch the repeat again tonight, sleep on it and watch it again tomorrow. Hopfully then I'll be able to keep it all straight.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Oh ****ing cool.

I like that it sounds as if Galactica is becoming a hybrid in and of itself. I also like the idea that the Final Five saved humanity by dealing with the Centurions and creating the skin jobs. It quite nicely rounds out the story without any conflicts that I can think of.

Denanthor
February 13th, 2009, 07:25 PM
I think. This is my favorite episode by far. Im a space battles guy. I love explosions i love bombs. But i found myself sitting there the entire time going O.O

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 07:28 PM
What was the PC thing?

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 07:28 PM
It seems to me that resurrection technology was created on kobol, maybe by the same people who created the Cylons on Kobol. There was a rebellion on Kobol and the cylons left Kobol and went to Earth. They eventually evolved far enough to procreate and didn't need resurrection tech.

The 5 were told by the Angels that a war was coming. I have an idea that the war from from the Earth Cylon's creating their own toasters who rebelled. Remember Ellen's line about going to the 12 colonies to warn them, if they created life, treat it good?

So the 5 worked to recreate resurrection so they would be reborn after the war. It worked. They went towards the 12 colonies in a sub-light ship, close to the speed of light though because time slowed down for them. They went to warn the 12 colonies but were too late.

The 5 made a deal with the 12 colony toasters. If the toasters stopped the war, they would help the toasters create skinjobs, who up until that point could only create a hybrid.

Cavil was the first skinjob made. He seems really flawed. The 7th model, who was Ellen's favorite was killed off by Cavil, a little Cain and Abel I guess. Cavil then killed the 5, implanted them with false memories and put them on the 12 colonies.

The only problem I have with that is that didn't Tigh and Adama fight together during the war? Or did they only meet after the war was over and Tigh was just remember fighting in the war because Cavil implanted him with memories? The time line is a little confusing there.

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 07:29 PM
What was the PC thing?

A doctor in the show does that PC/MAC commercials. I was kind of laughing when he came on screen, kept expecting him to I'm a PC.

trinity23
February 13th, 2009, 07:35 PM
So 12 tribes create Cylons (A.K.A 13th Tribe). They amicably split? Agree to never return to Kobol, but instead go their on way??

The 12 tribes forget the past & again create Cylons.

The 13th tribe of Cylons (is this tribe a mixture of robot cylons & skin job cylons???) go to a planet they call Earth, are able to procreate and therefore no longer need to resurrect, but 5 of them still secretly work on resurrection because?? there is some time of war going on? Who is this Earth war with? Robot cylons versus Skin jobs? Or is it just a Continent of mixed Cylons versus another one? The 5 are the only survivors, due to some spacial time stuff they are in space travelling towards the 12 colonies for thousands of years....reach The colonies....see a war going on.....convince the cylons to cease and they will show them how to build skin jobs....(wipes forehead)....


1) So the 8 models aged?
2) If starbuck is Daniel or even Daniel's daughter - Who bought her back/resurrected her and gave her a spanking new ship????
3) Will Anders die and suddenly appear on Cavil's stolen resurrection ship?

Vala_Hala
February 13th, 2009, 07:40 PM
Okay, phew, thats a lot to wrap one's head around.

Mindfrakking really.

So, help me get all this straight. Humans invented Cylons. On Kobol. They were exiled from Kobol - either by an angry 'God/s' for thinking they could create life or some other disagreement between tribes. Perhaps after a war between the Cylons and humans. They split into 13 tribes, 12 human, 1 either mixed or cylon. But whatever form, used resurrection technology. It also seems the cylons at this point were in humanoid form.

That is the bit I got a bit confused by :o - so if I'm wrong please correct me :)

Anyway, the 13th tribe settled on Earth, and evolved to reproduce and gave up resurrection.

At some point Earth is nuked - again, but fuzzy on the old details. Seems like the humanoid cylons went about inventing robotics leading to their very own cylons, and they rebelled and nuked the planet, but in the mean time, the final 5 whom were scientists worked on getting resurrection technology - I guess in case things went belly up in the 'war'. So Earth got nuked, they got resurrected and went off in search of their former Kobolians, to warn them against thinking inventing robotics would be a good idea. But travelling at sub light speeds by the time they got there, it was already too late.

The rest I definitely understand and has already been summarized in this thread, probably 80 more times in the time it took me to type this :p

Anyway my theory on Starbuck
I agree she's probably the child of Daniel - either via Ellen, although it would seem since at this point they all still had their memories, I would have thought Ellen and Tigh were together, or more likely a copy of Daniel, had been hidden on Caprica - and ended up with Socrata Thrace. Or I quite like the theories on her being what happened to the 7 after Cavils doings.
There has to be a reason that only the final 5 resurrected after death on Earth, possibly linked to their genes or whatever identifies a cylon 'model'. If Kara is the daughter of the 7 or the 7 itself, then perhaps she was close enough to a resurrection chamber to resurrect and had the 'genes' to trigger it.
Although it doesn't explain the body and ship on earth, or how a ship was reborn, so maybe thats all bunk.

USMCgrunt
February 13th, 2009, 07:40 PM
It seems to me that resurrection technology was created on kobol, maybe by the same people who created the Cylons on Kobol. There was a rebellion on Kobol and the cylons left Kobol and went to Earth. They eventually evolved far enough to procreate and didn't need resurrection tech.

The 5 were told by the Angels that a war was coming. I have an idea that the war from from the Earth Cylon's creating their own toasters who rebelled. Remember Ellen's line about going to the 12 colonies to warn them, if they created life, treat it good?

So the 5 worked to recreate resurrection so they would be reborn after the war. It worked. They went towards the 12 colonies in a sub-light ship, close to the speed of light though because time slowed down for them. They went to warn the 12 colonies but were too late.

The 5 made a deal with the 12 colony toasters. If the toasters stopped the war, they would help the toasters create skinjobs, who up until that point could only create a hybrid.

Cavil was the first skinjob made. He seems really flawed. The 7th model, who was Ellen's favorite was killed off by Cavil, a little Cain and Abel I guess. Cavil then killed the 5, implanted them with false memories and put them on the 12 colonies.

The only problem I have with that is that didn't Tigh and Adama fight together during the war? Or did they only meet after the war was over and Tigh was just remember fighting in the war because Cavil implanted him with memories? The time line is a little confusing there.

No they did not fight in the war together. Remember when they had the flashback episodes that Tigh asked Adama what ship he served on and he told him the Galactica and wen't on to tell him about the Cylons boarding it etc.

ToasterOnFire
February 13th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Wow, that was a lot thrown at us in one go. I think I need a rewatch.

And hot damn, Kate Vernon totally OWNED this ep. Bravo!

Obviously cylon number 7 is Daniel Jackson. ;)

Was the nurse who was such an ass to Kara at the end (jeez lady, even Cottle has better bedside manners than you) the same one making ominously creepy eyes during Six's ultrasound?

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 07:45 PM
No they did not fight in the war together. Remember when they had the flashback episodes that Tigh asked Adama what ship he served on and he told him the Galactica and wen't on to tell him about the Cylons boarding it etc.

Yeah I remember that but I thought when Tigh was inducted back into the military right as he was about to kill himself, didn't the guys say welcome back to the fleet Col Tigh? So if Cavil had killed them and put them on colonies with false memories, how was he able to falsify records on the colonies?

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 07:47 PM
Wow, that was a lot thrown at us in one go. I think I need a rewatch.

And hot damn, Kate Vernon totally OWNED this ep. Bravo!

Obviously cylon number 7 is Daniel Jackson. ;)

Was the nurse who was such an ass to Kara at the end (jeez lady, even Cottle has better bedside manners than you) the same one making ominously creepy eyes during Six's ultrasound?

So does that mean that when he was killed he Ascended and then took on a human-Cylon hybrid form? Naturally showing up au naturale?

Was there any discussion about the book of Pythia?

trinity23
February 13th, 2009, 07:49 PM
So Ellen slept with Cavil on New Caprica....Ellen created Cavil to look like her father....EWWWWWW!!

Shipperahoy
February 13th, 2009, 07:50 PM
LOLOL

PC is a doctor????

I laughed out loud at that bit of casting.

seriously though, cool eps, i'm sure some will find it boring, but there's a lot of plot necessary info being dumped, and things have to be put into place for the finale

Yeah no kidding right? Poor Anders all shot in the head and I'm laughing like a loon cuz there's PC doctor.

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 07:50 PM
So Ellen slept with Cavil on New Caprica....Ellen created Cavil to look like her father....EWWWWWW!!

But while she was on New Caprica she didn't realize that. That's why she chastised Cavil for being a sick *******.

jaredh
February 13th, 2009, 07:51 PM
One important thing to note....

There are no clones in waiting for Ellen....she downloaded into an empty vat of goop/water....all the rest of them have always downloaded into a vat with an unanimated clone in it (at least, that is what they have forced upon us for a long time with the resurrection ship etc etc).

How could he be waiting for the others to die and download when he doesn't have clones of *them* laying around, either.

I'm thinking the 5s resurrection process is more advanced than the 7 (aka 8)

I don't think Kara = Daniel. I doubt the hybrid offspring will resurrect like the 5 or the 7(8)....it'll be different.

Remember...her ship resurrected as well.

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 07:51 PM
So Ellen slept with Cavil on New Caprica....Ellen created Cavil to look like her father....EWWWWWW!!

I thought was funny when she asked Boomer if Cavil had showed her the swirl yet.

At least at the time she slept with Cavil, she didn't know that he looked like her father so that takes the ick factor down somewhat.

NK1969
February 13th, 2009, 07:53 PM
Great episode. The theories on David (the "worse than boxed" #7) are really interesting and reminded me a lot about Kara's back story that I'd forgotten.

BTW, where do you think Baltar fits into all of this? He's played a big part in events and seems to be tuned into a higher consciousness that seems to overlap the Cylons' abilities.

Vala_Hala
February 13th, 2009, 07:53 PM
Yeah I remember that but I thought when Tigh was inducted back into the military right as he was about to kill himself, didn't the guys say welcome back to the fleet Col Tigh? So if Cavil had killed them and put them on colonies with false memories, how was he able to falsify records on the colonies?

Hadn't it been like 40 or something years since the end of the original war - if Cavil had rebelled right around then or even 20 years before the new war, thats a lot of history to accumulate and a long time for other people to know them.

Finger13
February 13th, 2009, 07:55 PM
Yeah I remember that but I thought when Tigh was inducted back into the military right as he was about to kill himself, didn't the guys say welcome back to the fleet Col Tigh? So if Cavil had killed them and put them on colonies with false memories, how was he able to falsify records on the colonies?

Tigh served in the war. I don't remember what ship he was on, but he talks about how it was boarded and they had to fight in hand to hand combat with the ship when they tried to vent the atmosphere.

Tigh and Adama met while working on some kind of ship several years after the war, like a refinery ship or something along those lines. That's when they became friends.

trinity23
February 13th, 2009, 07:56 PM
But while she was on New Caprica she didn't realize that. That's why she chastised Cavil for being a sick *******.


I know, my ewww was directed towards Cavil. Gross. I hope that was part of what changed Boomers mind.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:00 PM
I'm surprised that no one has brought the bit about the one lord of Kobol who didn't get along with the rest. Sounds like Cavil is doing a great job filling in that role.

Sela
February 13th, 2009, 08:01 PM
Was the nurse who was such an ass to Kara at the end (jeez lady, even Cottle has better bedside manners than you) the same one making ominously creepy eyes during Six's ultrasound?

I was thinking that same thing. She was really very harsh to Kara so I'm sure she was the one making off comments about Tigh/Six's baby.

One thing - did Cavil say Ellen had made him in the image of her father? I mean...eww! Them on New Caprica - shudder.

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 08:01 PM
Hadn't it been like 40 or something years since the end of the original war - if Cavil had rebelled right around then or even 20 years before the new war, thats a lot of history to accumulate and a long time for other people to know them.

The first war was 40 years ago. We now know that the 5 didn't show up until that war started because they were able to convince the toasters to stop the war by striking a deal to create skinjobs, which the toasters were trying to do anyway.

We don't know how much time passed from the time the war was over and Adama got back in the fleet. We have to assume it was after Cavil killed the 5 and planted them on the colonies though because that is when Adama met Tigh.

Cavil can implant false memories but did he forge documents and things like that to give them a back story also?

Smashing Young Man
February 13th, 2009, 08:02 PM
A doctor in the show does that PC/MAC commercials. I was kind of laughing when he came on screen, kept expecting him to I'm a PC.
His being in PC character had to be intentional. He even had on the PC glasses for chrissakes. PC is the most sympathetic character in the history of commercials.

trinity23
February 13th, 2009, 08:04 PM
Also, what was up with Boomer's outfit??????

And she is SO still in love with the Chief.

trinity23
February 13th, 2009, 08:05 PM
...and judging from what he said after Cally's death, the chief is still in love with Boomer. Although, if he gets his memory back he may fall for Tory.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:06 PM
You know with the PC guy invovled, you can't help but wonder which version of Windows the Cylons run. Honestly, they do have to have some sort of operating system. Maybe Bill Gates *is* god and in the madness to put everything under the sun into Windows. He actually creates them.

the fifth man
February 13th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Very good episode tonight. I can't believe how much info we got in this one.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:11 PM
So if Kara is Daniel or the first Cylon-Human hybrid, what does that mean for the Harbinger of Death prophecy? And how did the FIRST Hybrid know about her.

Does it mean that she literally leads them to their death or is *death* being used figuratively as in the *death* of pride, species-superiority, or some other mindset?

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 08:11 PM
When I heard about a 7th Cylon called Daniel, that rung a bell of familiarity.

Perhaps I am wrong, but isn't there a Daniel in the new series Caprica?


This is from the Wikipedia entry of Caprica "Daniel Graystone who is a Wealthy Technologist ........Obsessing over his dead child, Daniel sets his considerable wealth and sprawling industrial corporation to the singular task of bringing the girls back to life. After experiments with startling breakthroughs in robotics and AI take a questionable turn, Joseph becomes a vehement opponent of the path Daniel starts down."

I think the Daniel that is being spoken about in this episode, just may be the Daniel in Caprica. It makes a TON of sense and it would certainly add a bit of back story for Caprica...... It also sounds like something Ron Moore would do just to stir the pot.

Smashing Young Man
February 13th, 2009, 08:13 PM
Okay, PC guy aside (I'm beginning to worry about myself for being so enthused by that), the amount of direct information that was dumped on us tonight without the usual teasing and beating around the bush kind of made my head spin. I definitely need to watch it another time or three to absorb it all.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:14 PM
When I heard about a 7th Cylon called Daniel, that rung a bell of familiarity.

Perhaps I am wrong, but isn't there a Daniel in the new series Caprica?


This is from the Wikipedia entry of Caprica "Daniel Graystone who is a Wealthy Technologist ........Obsessing over his dead child, Daniel sets his considerable wealth and sprawling industrial corporation to the singular task of bringing the girls back to life. After experiments with startling breakthroughs in robotics and AI take a questionable turn, Joseph becomes a vehement opponent of the path Daniel starts down."

I think the Daniel that is being spoken about in this episode, just may be the Daniel in Caprica. It makes a TON of sense and it would certainly add a bit of back story for Caprica...... It also sounds like something Ron Moore would do just to stir the pot.

From what I gathered in the prior posts (counting down till I can download it) Daniel was created by the Final Five. Since the Final Five arrived in the Colonies after the war had started. It can't be the same Daniel as the Final Five were somewhere in space at the time that he laid the groundwork for the Colonial-Cylons. Of course, there is the possibility that the Daniel model was based on him.

chris777
February 13th, 2009, 08:16 PM
I am watching the second round now, but I must have missed the references to Kara's dad. Maybe I will catch it this go around.

One thing I might have picked up on, is that Cavil also apparently knows everything. And the repetitious cycle mentioned, and his absolute terror when he was informed that Natalie removed the centurions inhibitors.
Which of course opens up the potential for the centurions to rebel again.

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 08:17 PM
Another thing I'm confused about. When Ellen and Cavil are talking about sleep. Ellen says that belief in a living God came from the Centurians. How did robots come to believe in a living God?

Something bigger is a play here I think. The Angels are important and I hope the writers answer that soon.

BobBot
February 13th, 2009, 08:19 PM
I'm pretty sure that Kara is Daniel. Ellen even said that Cavil did things to his amniotic fluid which altered it's DNA, so it's quite likely that Kara is Daniel. She is artistic, she seems to know things about the cylons, she resurrected, and has a 'destiny'. Maybe her destiny is to show that cylons can evolve and be more 'human' than machine.

That's interesting... it would explain why she 'glowed' along with the others when Anders was looking at them. I have to say though, I thought they were talking about Baltar because they said something about seeing angels, but I suppose the Leoben Kara was speaking to in one ep could have been an angel.

jaredh
February 13th, 2009, 08:20 PM
One thing I might have picked up on, is that Cavil also apparently knows everything. And the repetitious cycle mentioned, and his absolute terror when he was informed that Natalie removed the centurions inhibitors.
Which of course opens up the potential for the centurions to rebel again.

Oh, that's good.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:21 PM
So did the episode discuss why the Final Five were triggered when they were?

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 08:22 PM
We are talking about something made by Ronald Moore, the king of plot twists, turns and surprises. So I find it likely. Especially with his past of shocking people out of the blue. Remember Sometimes a good notion when Dee blew her brains out.... Lets not forget Maelstron, Crossroads Part 2 and the infamous "Adama Maneuver" from Exodus part 2. He knows how to shock people, and it would be something he would do.

And on top of it. There is WAY too much coincidence when comparing those 2.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:23 PM
Any one else thing that perhaps this episode warrants its own subforum to discuss all of the various individual issues? We're already up to 65 replies in 90 minutes.

trinity23
February 13th, 2009, 08:25 PM
So did the episode discuss why the Final Five were triggered when they were?


No, but Tory did say "And that song..." It was one of the questions she wanted to ask Anders.

Also, like how the cylon in the resurrection ship with Ellen was able to change it's clawed hand to that of a more human hand, wonder how else they can change????

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Just finished reading all the comments. Great reviews and clarification of the episode, especially for those of us who don't have DVR, so the once is all we get until it repeats.

I also agree with jaredh above that the final 5 have a more advanced resurrection process and maybe they withheld that from the Centurions as something like an Ace in the hole.

I agree with the theories that Starbuck is a child of a human cylon relationship, likely Ellen and Daniel. I also think she was able to resurrect without need of a clone due to her mother being Ellen. But it does still leave me wondering if there is a character yet to be introduced somehow in order for some loose ends to be tied together nicely?

Anders is brain dead, but I wonder if Ellen showing up next week will result in either he being repaired, or her working using her knowledge to allow him to die and resurrect?

Where I am, for the first time there was no preview of the next episode.

Interesting that Adama would not allow cylons other then Tyrol to work on Galactica.

Another Wow episode, everyone one since the return has been a homerun.

Wish Dualla was around for these eps.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Wish Dualla was around for these eps.

She might be around, she might be all around the sleeping quarters if they haven't had the time to clean things up.

(I'm sorry, it just came to me. She was just an alright character for me. Not too outstanding. And that's not nearly as bad as the joke that my roommate told me last night, which I will NEVER repeat.)

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 08:35 PM
Also, Cavil is not just a sadist, but I think in fact he is insane. Of course, perhaps they are one and the same, just manifested differently. Perhaps the psychologists on the board might know the answer to that?

Another thing I just realised from the episode is that Cavil has been keeping Ellens presence a secret from the others - only Boomer knew Ellen was alive.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Also, Cavil is not just a sadist, but I think in fact he is insane. Of course, perhaps they are one and the same, just manifested differently. Perhaps the psychologists on the board might know the answer to that?

Another thing I just realised from the episode is that Cavil has been keeping Ellens presence a secret from the others - only Boomer knew Ellen was alive.

...and he's playing the part of the one Lord of Kobol that didn't get along with the rest.

Chev's Ron
February 13th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Amazing Episode, kind of feel bad for Anders though. I hope he can resurrect like Ellen. (And not into a vat of poisioned resurrection foam). I occasionaly mix up words and phrases like him, but to a much lesser extent.

"The final 5 cylons were scientists, met head six and baltar, used a sub-light ship to reach the colonies, happening to pass by the temple of hopes on their way back to the colonies, arrived just in time for the first cylon war, created the devil incarnate "cavil", and were betrayed by Cavil and became human. Quite a backstory if you ask me.

Now that the new model cylons can get pregnant, (atleast through the final 5 and humans), will the cycle repeat itself again? Cylons leave fleet, arrive at Kobol, create cylons, get expelled, go to Earth/the colonies, and the cycle repeats. Hopefully something changes down the line.

As for galactica, I would like to see her refitted with cylon technology. But after seeing the preview for next weeks episode, their might not be time for a refit before the baseship leaves the fleet.

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 08:39 PM
Just finished reading all the comments. Great reviews and clarification of the episode, especially for those of us who don't have DVR, so the once is all we get until it repeats.

I also agree with jaredh above that the final 5 have a more advanced resurrection process and maybe they withheld that from the Centurions as something like an Ace in the hole.

I agree with the theories that Starbuck is a child of a human cylon relationship, likely Ellen and Daniel. I also think she was able to resurrect without need of a clone due to her mother being Ellen. But it does still leave me wondering if there is a character yet to be introduced somehow in order for some loose ends to be tied together nicely?

Anders is brain dead, but I wonder if Ellen showing up next week will result in either he being repaired, or her working using her knowledge to allow him to die and resurrect?

Where I am, for the first time there was no preview of the next episode.

Interesting that Adama would not allow cylons other then Tyrol to work on Galactica.

Another Wow episode, everyone one since the return has been a homerun.

Wish Dualla was around for these eps.

How could she be a hybrid if both parents were cylons?

chris777
February 13th, 2009, 08:42 PM
Just finished reading all the comments. Great reviews and clarification of the episode, especially for those of us who don't have DVR, so the once is all we get until it repeats.

I know I am going to come off like the old timer. but some of us still own and use devices called "VCR's"

(had to watch Psych first)

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 08:45 PM
...and he's playing the part of the one Lord of Kobol that didn't get along with the rest.

As I only saw the episode the once, I think I am a little sketchy on that part. I think I should have not drunk that bottle of red wine prior to the episode (I am not kidding about the wine, it was a Quinterelli Amarone from Veneto Italy and very tasty at 15.5% alcohol!)

Also, I don't believe it was yet made clear who attacked the cylon world that the final five lived on, but I have an overwhelming impression from the episode that it was the Centurions? Or was it this Lord of Kobol you just noted Hal2100?

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 08:47 PM
I know I am going to come off like the old timer. but some of us still own and use devices called "VCR's"

(had to watch Psych first)

You can still find tapes for those old things! Cool!

Smashing Young Man
February 13th, 2009, 08:48 PM
I know I am going to come off like the old timer. but some of us still own and use devices called "VCR's"

(had to watch Psych first)
I believe I saw one of those in a museum somewhere. :p

Are you SevenString.org Chriss777, by the way?

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 08:49 PM
Is the Cylon's one true God, the 13th Lord of Kobol?

The reason the 5 helped the toasters make skinjobs is because Ellen said they found a loving God that would break the cycle of violence.

We know that the angels appeared to the 5 on earth thousands of years ago right before Earth was nuked. And now the angels are appearing to Baltar and Caprica 6. And since head 6 talks about a one true God, we have to assume it is the same God that the Cylon's were worshiping when the 5 found them.

So does that mean the 13th Lord has been manipulating things for thousands of years? And if so, where are the 12 Lords of Kobol at?

chris777
February 13th, 2009, 08:50 PM
Are you SevenString.org Chriss777, by the way?

unfortunately no. I thought I had the market cornered, but apparently either I have too much competition to keep it mine alone. I guess I need something more unique.

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 08:53 PM
How could she be a hybrid if both parents were cylons?


Your right about that, or at least I think you are! Although there do seem to be some differences between the final 5, who are really the original five, and their "children". So perhaps the answer is something else for Kara?

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 08:53 PM
As I only saw the episode the once, I think I am a little sketchy on that part. I think I should have not drunk that bottle of red wine prior to the episode (I am not kidding about the wine, it was a Quinterelli Amarone from Veneto Italy and very tasty at 15.5% alcohol!)

Also, I don't believe it was yet made clear who attacked the cylon world that the final five lived on, but I have an overwhelming impression from the episode that it was the Centurions? Or was it this Lord of Kobol you just noted Hal2100?

I wasn't refering to the literal Lords of Kobol per se, but rather to the 'All this has happened before, All this will happen again'. I seem to recall that one of the 13 didn't get along with the other 12. I wanted to suggest that Cavill is playing the same role as that one Lord, not that he was him.

Corona
February 13th, 2009, 08:54 PM
All right, another kick ass episode!

Credit where credit is due. PC, John Hodgman, take a bow.

I do believe Kara heard the music and she was glowing. CYLON!

As for Daniel, Jackson does have a way of turning up starkers. It's tough to be typecast! :)

Sue_Jackson
February 13th, 2009, 08:57 PM
H.....o.....l.....y MIND FRAK!!!!! :eek: What an episode!! :D That was just....WOW!! I can't believe that episode!

I was soooo into this episode that I was actually shocked when it was over! I wanted MORE! That was the fastest hour I've experienced. So much info. So much intel. I love how a lot of loose ends are finally coming together.

I'm still trying to get it all straight in my head. This ep was chock full of info.

So.....we all know Ellen is a Cylon. So....she is among the five that created the rest of the Cylon bodies? So....who created her and the original five? So....Galen...Sam...Saul...Tory...and Ellen.....were the original 5 that created the Cylon bodies such as John (the sadist) and Sharon and Caprica Six?? And......who Daniel??? :S I'm also trying figure out who the 8 Cylons are....Galen...Sam...Saul...Tory...Ellen...Caprica Six/Natalie...Daniel (whoever he is??)....and Sharon??? Is that right?? So.....where do D'Anna and John fit? :S

Oy vey. My head hurts. :tealcanime49:

Oh.....and poor Galactica is falling apart. I hope they are able to fix her. It does look like the dying leader IS Galactica. :(

I love Ellen in this....btw. I think she sends out a great message. The was she shows her love for people is very inspirational and moving.

Only downfall.....only got to see Laura and Lee in one scene. Though....it was a very touching scene.

Ooooh....I can't wait for next Friday! :D

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 08:59 PM
I wasn't refering to the literal Lords of Kobol per se, but rather to the 'All this has happened before, All this will happen again'. I seem to recall that one of the 13 didn't get along with the other 12. I wanted to suggest that Cavill is playing the same role as that one Lord, not that he was him.

Ok, I see your point. Thought I missed something. This was an information heavy episode, and I am now rolling around the information, along with what has been posted, to get it all in order.

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:00 PM
WHAT IS PC???

Did i miss something??

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 09:03 PM
WHAT IS PC???

Did i miss something??

The brain surgeon from the other ship is the guy who plays "PC" in the Apple commercials.

chris777
February 13th, 2009, 09:03 PM
So is the "Old Girl gonna look like this when the chief gets done with her?

7883

Crap its tiny
Oh wait you can click on it.

chris777
February 13th, 2009, 09:05 PM
The brain surgeon from the other ship is the guy who plays "PC" in the Apple commercials.
I totally buy him as a brain surgeon........lol

Replicator Todd
February 13th, 2009, 09:07 PM
Nice episode, it was one where the credits came up and I got up and said "NOT YET!" Haven't had a moment like that in a while. Ellen=awesome.

Tain
February 13th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Ok there is something I don't understand here. From what I gather, we are supposed to believe that the Centurion style Cylons on Earth rebelled and nuked the skinjob Earth cylons, leaving the final 5 as the only survivors. If this is the case, where are the Earth Centurions? Why aren't they still on Earth? Why did they find the remains of destroyed Centurions intermixed with the bones on earth? Surely the Centurions didn't nuke themselves to death? So if they were victims of the nukes as well, who the heck was lobbing the nukes?

kharn the betrayer
February 13th, 2009, 09:10 PM
WHAT IS PC???

Did i miss something??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci2D1ig4df4

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:10 PM
I know I am going to come off like the old timer. but some of us still own and use devices called "VCR's"

(had to watch Psych first)

Here Here! It's how i record shows I want to watch again, and its good to have a Hard Copy of a TV show till it comes out on DVD.

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:11 PM
The brain surgeon from the other ship is the guy who plays "PC" in the Apple commercials.

OH ok! Well that explains what that meant now!

Thought i had missed something in the episode!

chris777
February 13th, 2009, 09:12 PM
Quite a backstory if you ask me.
Yes it is don't you love how they tell it leaving only 5 episodes left in the series.

Though who knows maybe we'll see the fabled cylon home world that was also hinted at in this ep the "colony"

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Ok there is something I don't understand here. From what I gather, we are supposed to believe that the Centurion style Cylons on Earth rebelled and nuked the skinjob Earth cylons, leaving the final 5 as the only survivors. If this is the case, where are the Earth Centurions? Why aren't they still on Earth? Why did they find the remains of destroyed Centurions intermixed with the bones on earth? Surely the Centurions didn't nuke themselves to death? So if they were victims of the nukes as well, who the heck was lobbing the nukes?

We don't know exactly who nuked Earth. I think it could be the Centurians that the Earth Cylon's created based on the fact that Anders said the final 5 headed towards the Colonies to warn them that if they created life to keep it close and treat it right.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 09:14 PM
Why did they find the remains of destroyed Centurions intermixed with the bones on earth? Surely the Centurions didn't nuke themselves to death? So if they were victims of the nukes as well, who the heck was lobbing the nukes?

I just took it that all of the Cylons - skin-jobs & toaster - were killed or otherwise terminally wounded/damaged as a result of the war. One side nuked the other, the other retailiated. Maybe some survived, but they were otherwise unable to survive due to radiation and other what not.

Tain
February 13th, 2009, 09:14 PM
We don't know exactly who nuked Earth. I think it could be the Centurians that the Earth Cylon's created based on the fact that Anders said the final 5 headed towards the Colonies to warn them that if they created life to keep it close and treat it right.

Thats the impression I got as well, which is why I am confused. The Earth Centurions committed mass murder-suicide?

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 09:14 PM
Holy Frak, I just had a drunken moment of clarity!

Boomer spirited Ellen off the baseship at the end - which implies that the cylons know where the ragtag fleet is sitting, unless she is taking Ellen elsewhere, but Boomer had her old uniform on which supports my supposition. So why has Calvin not jumped all over the Galatica and the rebel baseship?

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Thats the impression I got as well, which is why I am confused. The Earth Centurions committed mass murder-suicide?

Well could be what Hal just said, they nuked themselves into oblivion, you know MAD, mutually assured destruction.

But the angels knew war was coming and told the final 5, who worked to recreate the resurrection technology. Which would seem to imply that it was an external force that nuked Earth.

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Holy Frak, I just had a drunken moment of clarity!

Boomer spirited Ellen off the baseship at the end - which implies that the cylons know where the ragtag fleet is sitting, unless she is taking Ellen elsewhere, but Boomer had her old uniform on which supports my supposition. So why has Calvin not jumped all over the Galatica and the rebel baseship?

Boomer was at the beginning wearing casual wear, then once the Hub was shown destroyed, she changed into a Cylon Pilot Jumpsuit that you saw the rebel cylons wear in the "Hub" Episode.

But from the Preview It shows that Boomer does take ellen back to the fleet so they might know where they are now.

MrBojangles
February 13th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Holy Frak, I just had a drunken moment of clarity!

Boomer spirited Ellen off the baseship at the end - which implies that the cylons know where the ragtag fleet is sitting, unless she is taking Ellen elsewhere, but Boomer had her old uniform on which supports my supposition. So why has Calvin not jumped all over the Galatica and the rebel baseship?

He wants them all together when he kills them? Or he's using Ellen as bait to find the other final 5 cylons so he can learn the resurrection details. Boomer is really still with Cavil and is playing along to get Ellen to feel secure.

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:20 PM
He wants them all together when he kills them? Or he's using Ellen as bait to find the other final 5 cylons so he can learn the resurrection details. Boomer is really still with Cavil and is playing along to get Ellen to feel secure.

That does sound like something that He would do and something that boomer might support if she truly loves him.

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 09:20 PM
He wants them all together when he kills them? Or he's using Ellen as bait to find the other final 5 cylons so he can learn the resurrection details. Boomer is really still with Cavil and is playing along to get Ellen to feel secure.

He may not want to go after the fleet until he regains resurrection tech. He wouldn't want to die.

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 09:23 PM
Boomer was at the beginning wearing casual wear, then once the Hub was shown destroyed, she changed into a Cylon Pilot Jumpsuit that you saw the rebel cylons wear in the "Hub" Episode.

But from the Preview It shows that Boomer does take ellen back to the fleet so they might know where they are now.

Ok. I thought it was her Galactica uniform, but I am thinking you checked it out, which I cannot do. Anyways, my main point remains, which is that it seems like the cylons know where the fleet is parked, so why have they not pursued them, particularly given that Cavil seems so hell bent on his blood quest?

Occulus
February 13th, 2009, 09:24 PM
Credit where credit is due. PC, John Hodgman, take a bow.

John Hodgman gave a talk (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/john_hodgman_s_brief_digression.html) at the Technology, Entertainment, and Design (TED) conference in Monterey, CA, in February of 2008. This is actually a pretty big deal- among many other people at the top of whatever, Bill Gates recently spoke there, Al Gore showed his face on stage a couple years back, and TED has even been graced by the presence of Stephen Hawking. It's a really remarkable conference, about the only place one can rub shoulders with both the creator of The Simpsons as well as top physicists, astronomers, and biologists.

The linked video lasts 16'40", and it's a pretty neat story Hodgman tells.

I must say, this was a very interesting bit of casting. Hodgman is primarily a 'humorist', not an actor- although from his performance in this episode, I think he can quite easily play the quirkier character types. He certainly sold the role he was playing in this episode.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 09:24 PM
He wants them all together when he kills them? Or he's using Ellen as bait to find the other final 5 cylons so he can learn the resurrection details. Boomer is really still with Cavil and is playing along to get Ellen to feel secure.

What if figuratively things are moving toward a situation where the '13' Lords of Kobol are essentially re-assembled where the 13 are composed of - Adama/Rosalin, the Significant Six, the Final Five and Kara as the missing model 7? (Again not that the members are the actual Lords of Kobol in person or resurrected, just figuratively the Lords.)

Tain
February 13th, 2009, 09:25 PM
I just took it that all of the Cylons - skin-jobs & toaster - were killed or otherwise terminally wounded/damaged as a result of the war. One side nuked the other, the other retailiated. Maybe some survived, but they were otherwise unable to survive due to radiation and other what not.

Sorry HAL didn't even notice your post! That makes a bit more sense on the surface than Centurions blowing themselves up, but still is pretty shakey.

From what we understand about the Centurions, this was essentially a slave rebellion. They wouldn't have their own country or such from which to launch nukes from "their" side. Especially considering the Centurion/Skinjob mortal remains were found together. They had no FTL so they couldn't have had their own hormeworld either. This still leaves us with Centurions dropping nukes on themselves.

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 09:28 PM
@ Gatetrek and Arative

I think you two hit the nail on the head, he wants to get the original five together so they can recreat the resurrection tech so he can be immortal again.

It did seem to me that Boomer's about face was a little "sudden" - it was one of the nagging little itches I had at the end of the episode. I was not buying her "forgiveness" business, but I wonder what will happen when she and Tyrol lay eyes on each other again?

Detox
February 13th, 2009, 09:31 PM
I kept expecting Hodgman to say something about Windows during the episode.:p

STC
February 13th, 2009, 09:34 PM
You can still find tapes for those old things! Cool!


Yes yes and yes!! I use'em too.

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Ok. I thought it was her Galactica uniform, but I am thinking you checked it out, which I cannot do. Anyways, my main point remains, which is that it seems like the cylons know where the fleet is parked, so why have they not pursued them, particularly given that Cavil seems so hell bent on his blood quest?

See Atarive's last Post! I think he doesn;t want to go after them until he can re-download

Detox
February 13th, 2009, 09:40 PM
This was a slow episode, but it revealed SOOOO much. I really can't wait to see how the whole series is going to wrap up.

There's one note of disappointment though, and that was we didn't really get to see what happened to the mutineers. And personally, I really want some closure on that.

Espeon1962
February 13th, 2009, 09:43 PM
Detox:

Me too! Despite all the info in this episode, it had a narrow focus, and I am hoping we get some fleshing out on issues such as the mutineers in the next episode.

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 09:44 PM
so is the "old girl gonna look like this when the chief gets done with her?

7883

crap its tiny
oh wait you can click on it.

hahahaha!

STC
February 13th, 2009, 09:46 PM
I am nothing if not confused. I've watched the tape a couple of times now and I'm still not clear on most of it. The Final Five were scientists who were working on re-creating the resurrection ability, were killed by Cavil, their creation. Cavil downloaded them into new bodies, suppressed their memories and gave them new ones. So much info and so little time to uderstand.

One thing I did get clearly: he said that they didn't have the ability to procreate naturally, so they needed to recreate the hub to continue to live.
So if two Cylons can't procreate, how did Tigh and his Six get pregnant? Is she really pregnant??

g.o.d
February 13th, 2009, 09:47 PM
I want more!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was amazing episode. I love Ellen, she's great and John is fraking amazing villian.

I'm glad they explained what has happened with the No.7

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:48 PM
I am nothing if not confused. I've watched the tape a couple of times now and I'm still not clear on most of it. The Final Five were scientists who were working on re-creating the resurrection ability, were killed by Cavil, their creation. Cavil downloaded their memories into new bodies, suppressed their memories and gave them new ones. So much info and so little time to uderstand.

One thing I did get clearly: he said that they didn't have the ability to procreate naturally, so they needed to recreate the hub to continue to live.
So if two Cylons can't procreate, how did Tigh and his Six get pregnant? Is she really pregnant??

I'm thinking that since it was a Sig. 7 Model and a FF model, we know now that the "Earth" colony were able to procreate so maybe that what was needed to allow the other 7 they created to bear children. I think she IS pregnant.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 09:49 PM
One thing I did get clearly: he said that they didn't have the ability to procreate naturally, so they needed to recreate the hub to continue to live.
So if two Cylons can't procreate, how did Tigh and his Six get pregnant? Is she really pregnant??

Keep in mind that there's a difference between the Earth-Cylons and the Colonial-Cylons. The Colonial-Cylons (created by the Final Five) can't reproduce on their own. Mostly likely (as someone put) a built in precaution that the Final Five decided to add-in in creating them.

GateTrek2004
February 13th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Detox:

Me too! Despite all the info in this episode, it had a narrow focus, and I am hoping we get some fleshing out on issues such as the mutineers in the next episode.

I think thats over and done with. I would be suprised if we here anything about them again.

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 09:54 PM
I'm off to bed.

At any rate, it sounds as if a big chunk of wikipedia.org will have to be updated. I count the following articles as needing to be updated - The Final Five, Cylons, Anders, Teigh, Ellen, Cavil, Tori, Chief and the Colonies.

STC
February 13th, 2009, 09:56 PM
I kept expecting Hodgman to say something about Windows during the episode.:p

I think that was really a dumb thing to do!! don't get me wrong, the commercials are funny, but that took me right out of the show into a Windows commercial!! Casting him for that bit part really lessened the 'seriousness' of the entire scene in the surgery.

I thought he was going to say something "i can reboot him"!!

hoof
February 13th, 2009, 09:57 PM
Great episode. Lots of info, although I suspect there's another layer of what's happening to be revealed.

So it's obvious that the Galactica is the dying leader talked about in the prophecies, not Roslyn. Galactica will lead the human race (and the RTF) to a new home.

I like the idea that Starbuck is somehow related to Daniel, cylon 7. However, I suspect that's not the case, simply because she came back *with her ship*. We have yet to see any tech that resurrects a Mk II viper (or any inorganic material), which implies someone or something went to an awful lot of trouble to rebuild her ship, move her and the ship to Earth, then to the ionic nebula, and gathered her wrecked ship from within the crushing depths of a gas planet to scattered it around Earth ahead of the RTF.

Also, I cannot escape the idea that whatever nuked Earth is still around. The RTF survived the nuking of the 12 colonies (as did the cylons), and the Earthlings *had* ships (even if they didn't have FTL tech). Somehow the final five got into orbit and managed to get a special resurrection ship into orbit. Any society that has that capability would have stragglers/survivors and likely one side of the conflict would survive in significant numbers. Unless some external force came and nuked them, which again leads to the idea that there's a 3rd party somewhere in the universe, Earth should have had at a minimum, a RTF of their own. Having them all die (except the 5) is simply too convenient, and not very RDM-like.

One interesting tidbit is that supposedly all 5 of the Final Five are needed to reproduce resurrection tech. If Anders is truly dead (and doesn't resurrect on some sort of backup ship), then cylon resurrection is over (unless Cavil is right that Ellen has enough know-how and has equipment at the colony).

Speaking of which, Ellen knows about this resurrection-lab colony. What are the odds that the RTF might head in that direction after Ellen arrives? :) And what is the nature of this "colony" anyway, doesn't "colony" imply a bunch of people, not just 5?

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 09:59 PM
Also, Cavil is not just a sadist, but I think in fact he is insane. Of course, perhaps they are one and the same, just manifested differently. Perhaps the psychologists on the board might know the answer to that?

Another thing I just realized from the episode is that Cavil has been keeping Ellen's presence a secret from the others - only Boomer knew Ellen was alive.

I think he has what is called a Conniving, Narcissistic, Egotistical, Hedonistic, Volatile and a Genocidal streak that is going to create one hell of a Series Finale. I think he is going to push this series into territory that no series finale has every seen. Can we say Hitler 2.0?

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 10:01 PM
I'm off to bed.

At any rate, it sounds as if a big chunk of wikipedia.org will have to be updated. I count the following articles as needing to be updated - The Final Five, Cylons, Anders, Tigh, Ellen, Cavil, Tori, Chief and the Colonies.


Already done. I got to Cavil, Lee Adama, Ronlin and Battlestar Galactica (Ship). Someone else dealt with the other bunch.

And It is Tigh not Teigh.... Just a FYI

HAL2100
February 13th, 2009, 10:03 PM
Already done. I got to Cavil, Lee Adama, Ronlin and Battlestar Galactica (Ship). Someone else dealt with the other bunch.

And It is Tigh not Teigh.... Just a FYI

I'll add him to my Firefox spell check.

Arative
February 13th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Great episode. Lots of info, although I suspect there's another layer of what's happening to be revealed.

So it's obvious that the Galactica is the dying leader talked about in the prophecies, not Roslyn. Galactica will lead the human race (and the RTF) to a new home.


I don't think it is obvious at all the Galatica is the dying leader. I think Galatica falling apart is a metaphor for humanity dying and in order to survive humans and cylon's need to work together. Perhaps break the cycle of violence for all time?

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 10:16 PM
I'll add him to my Firefox spell check.

Wasn't trying to be a ball buster.

bfldworker
February 13th, 2009, 10:19 PM
I don't think it is obvious at all the Galatica is the dying leader. I think Galatica falling apart is a metaphor for humanity dying and in order to survive humans and cylon's need to work together. Perhaps break the cycle of violence for all time?

True, or it could just mean the ship has had the hell beat out of it. And the people on board were more concerned with staying alive and fighting the cylons, they just may have forgotten to keep a eye on the superstructure of the ship. It isn't unheard of. You should hear some stories from WWII on naval ships about how they were fighting so much they were more preoccupied with the fight then the hull that was keeping them afloat. it's simple Humanity 101. Save thy ass....

sunonmars
February 13th, 2009, 10:52 PM
Is this Daniel, the 7 model, the piano player in her dream sequence coming, in the last 5 episodes?

wontgetfooledagain
February 13th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Another thing I just realised from the episode is that Cavil has been keeping Ellens presence a secret from the others - only Boomer knew Ellen was alive.
Is it possible that Boomer kept Ellen's existence a secret, but influenced the other Cylon's to rebel?

He wants them all together when he kills them? Or he's using Ellen as bait to find the other final 5 cylons so he can learn the resurrection details. Boomer is really still with Cavil and is playing along to get Ellen to feel secure.

I think you two hit the nail on the head, he wants to get the original five together so they can recreat the resurrection tech so he can be immortal again.

It did seem to me that Boomer's about face was a little "sudden" - it was one of the nagging little itches I had at the end of the episode. I was not buying her "forgiveness" business, but I wonder what will happen when she and Tyrol lay eyes on each other again?
These two posts seem more plausible than my idea. I love the character of Cavil, though, because he seems to be such a purely evil entity, despite what Ellen said about loving him. And even if he isn't purely evil, he is very nearly unstoppable. The number of people who are in a legitimate position to stop him is almost nil. This aspect of him reminds me of Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men and various characters from certain Philip K. Dick novels (particularly Jory Miller and Palmer Eldritch from Ubik and The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, respectively). Granted, the characters that I'm referring to aren't the most original of this type, but they are the ones that come to my mind most readily.

True, or it could just mean the ship has had the hell beat out of it.
Metaphors are so much more fun than simply saying "the ship has had the hell beat out of it."

sunonmars
February 13th, 2009, 11:17 PM
I am nothing if not confused. I've watched the tape a couple of times now and I'm still not clear on most of it. The Final Five were scientists who were working on re-creating the resurrection ability, were killed by Cavil, their creation. Cavil downloaded them into new bodies, suppressed their memories and gave them new ones. So much info and so little time to uderstand.

One thing I did get clearly: he said that they didn't have the ability to procreate naturally, so they needed to recreate the hub to continue to live.
So if two Cylons can't procreate, how did Tigh and his Six get pregnant? Is she really pregnant??

Could this be the cylon biblical Jesus, Mary and Jesus. I mean its plausible, thats its the immaculate conception. The birth of the God.

sunonmars
February 13th, 2009, 11:23 PM
Theres obiously a great deal of oedipus complex going on with Cavil, killing the 7 Daniel for affections of his mother, feeling rejected, seeking sex with his "mother", keeping her captive, possessing her, humiliating her.

Sounds like he is going to get whats coming to him but he's the sort of guy who when going down will decide to take everyone with him.

BobBot
February 14th, 2009, 01:40 AM
Ok there is something I don't understand here. From what I gather, we are supposed to believe that the Centurion style Cylons on Earth rebelled and nuked the skinjob Earth cylons, leaving the final 5 as the only survivors. If this is the case, where are the Earth Centurions? Why aren't they still on Earth? Why did they find the remains of destroyed Centurions intermixed with the bones on earth? Surely the Centurions didn't nuke themselves to death? So if they were victims of the nukes as well, who the heck was lobbing the nukes?

Ellen said something at the start of the episode - that her 'machine-ness' depends on how you define machine. The final five wanted to warn the 12 colonies about the dangers of creating artificial life - this suggests to me that they themselves are not artificial, otherwise the 12 colonies would know about the danger. At the very least, if Earth was a colony made entirely of 'machines', that implies that there is already a segregation of human and machine and therefore some sort of war or recognition of danger.

Anders said resurrection was 'organic memory transfer' and that jump drives hadn't been invented yet. Maybe resurrection was developed as a way to store people on long journeys, or to ensure immortality. It's odd that resurrection was abandoned once the artificial bodies were able to reproduce though. Who wouldn't want the safety of a 'back-up' body, especially if you have children?


Holy Frak, I just had a drunken moment of clarity!

Boomer spirited Ellen off the baseship at the end - which implies that the cylons know where the ragtag fleet is sitting, unless she is taking Ellen elsewhere, but Boomer had her old uniform on which supports my supposition. So why has Calvin not jumped all over the Galatica and the rebel baseship?

Boomer and Ellen left the baseship 4 months before the events aboard Galactica in this episode. Presumably, they will find Galactica in the next episode, after having been searching for 4 months. Cavil will no doubt arrive shortly thereafter.

Something else that hasn't been addressed: John was the first of the Significant Seven / Ultimate Eight; not just the first model, but also the first personality. Daniel was also the first personality of his line, the Sevens. Presumably then, there were also 'firsts' or prototypes of models 2-6 and 8. So where are these 'originals'? Still on the Cylon colony? Also, why the exodus from Kobol, and what about the god and the angels?

Can't wait for next week!

Cag
February 14th, 2009, 01:50 AM
Lots of good info in this episode. I think Kara is this 7th cylon they are talking about. Knowing that Cavil is such a assho** and he hates Daniel, wouldn't it be really cruel to download a male's personality,etc into a woman's body. That is why I think she acts like a man so much. Just my .02

Agent_Dark
February 14th, 2009, 01:56 AM
Couple of things:

* Ellen mentions the destroyed 7th Cylon model, Daniel, as an wonderful artist. We haven't seen a skinjob have a sex change yet, so that would probably rule Starbuck out as an actual Cylon. But Starbucks dad was a painter. Starbucks dad = one of the Daniel the 7th Cylon models? And that would mean Kara is actually the first Human-Cylon child? Hence all that stuff about her destiny?

* During Sam's ramblings while he's getting prepped for surgery, he says "Back on Earth, the warning signs that we got? It looked different to each one of us. I saw a woman; Tory you saw a man. Funny, no-one - no-one else could see them. Galen, you thought you had a chip in your head-". Right after that he mentions the 7th Cylon's name, Daniel.

Baltar sees a woman that no-one else can see. She has acted as a warning sign for him. He thought he had a chip in his head. That has to be related to what the Dylan Four saw on Earth. Is Baltar a Cylon? A Daniel model that no-one recognises?

g.o.d
February 14th, 2009, 02:10 AM
I think Daniel is Kara's father

retiredat44
February 14th, 2009, 02:24 AM
We keep getting told we are getting answers,, well, if we are getting these answers, then they are slower than hell, and I really don't see many yet. I do see some very good stories, and still more personal development. But, we only have a few episodes to go, so the answers better start popping.. :)

Osiris
February 14th, 2009, 02:30 AM
I believe that what Ellen meant when she said that the one true god came from the Centurions is that

*spoilers for Caprica's pilot*
their creators were part of a terrotist group that believed in a single god. Zoe Graystone created her own virtual alter-ego and she believed in a single god. Her father used her virtual alter-ego to create the first cylon (the first version of the centurion which was originally a domestic robotic aid). Hence, the cylons believing in one true god.

GateTrek2004
February 14th, 2009, 02:42 AM
Boomer and Ellen left the baseship 4 months before the events aboard Galactica in this episode. Presumably, they will find Galactica in the next episode, after having been searching for 4 months. Cavil will no doubt arrive shortly thereafter.

The Last timestamp shown was "2 Days Ago" That's when Boomer and Ellen left the Baseship. When i can, ill re-watch it to make sure im not wrong, but in positive that's correct.

Re-watched it and It WAS "2 days ago" that boomer took ellen.

GateTrek2004
February 14th, 2009, 02:44 AM
We keep getting told we are getting answers,, well, if we are getting these answers, then they are slower than hell, and I really don't see many yet. I do see some very good stories, and still more personal development. But, we only have a few episodes to go, so the answers better start popping.. :)

I have gotten more answers from this 1 episode than anything so far this series!

SGFerrit
February 14th, 2009, 02:53 AM
Very good episode, I know it wasn't as exciting as last weeks but we need to lay the groundwork!:P

Anyway, I know a lot of people are thinking that Daniel is either Starbuck or Starbuck's father (and I'm inclined to agree) but is it possible that it's Baltar? We now know the final 5 saw 'angels' before their own war, isn't that what Head Six has described herself as before?

g.o.d
February 14th, 2009, 03:33 AM
I think Daniel is Kara's father, but the Head people are somebody else

knowles2
February 14th, 2009, 03:33 AM
Ok there is something I don't understand here. From what I gather, we are supposed to believe that the Centurion style Cylons on Earth rebelled and nuked the skinjob Earth cylons, leaving the final 5 as the only survivors. If this is the case, where are the Earth Centurions? Why aren't they still on Earth? Why did they find the remains of destroyed Centurions intermixed with the bones on earth? Surely the Centurions didn't nuke themselves to death? So if they were victims of the nukes as well, who the heck was lobbing the nukes?

nope I think the centurions from earth are very much alive. I think it was them who place the probe, created the virus to kill organic cylons and possible sent the message to awake the four that were on the fleet. The angles are humans who have broken the endless cycle and have since evolve. They tried to interfere to stop both wars but failed. Starbuck is their plan now, but instead of trying to save both cylons and humans they sent her to wipe out both warring faction and end the cycle for good.

Coco Pops
February 14th, 2009, 05:00 AM
I think that was really a dumb thing to do!! don't get me wrong, the commercials are funny, but that took me right out of the show into a Windows commercial!! Casting him for that bit part really lessened the 'seriousness' of the entire scene in the surgery.

I thought he was going to say something "i can reboot him"!!


Which episode is this? So I have something funny to look out for?

the missing 7
February 14th, 2009, 05:01 AM
the podcast is up for this ep http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/417/bsg_ep417_FULL.mp3


and i have to say I was disappointed

the missing 7
February 14th, 2009, 05:02 AM
Which episode is this? So I have something funny to look out for?

season 4 "no exit"

Coco Pops
February 14th, 2009, 05:21 AM
season 4 "no exit"


cool........... So BSG is descended from Earth.....We are the ones in the past not them.

bgingras
February 14th, 2009, 05:25 AM
yep, loved it as usual.

Anyone else feel that the Cylon colony is the next Kobol, and that it will start all over again? The colony has resurrection and everyone in the fleet that dies now will be resurrected there. They'll eventually leave and go out on their own in separate directions again and form another 13 colonies. and over and over and over again.

the missing 7
February 14th, 2009, 05:26 AM
i just realized now we know why cavil told galen he might be a cylon in "lay down your burdens"

wow

ToasterOnFire
February 14th, 2009, 06:37 AM
Galactica is dying from the inside and has to be saved by cylon tech. Kinda like Roslin.

It was only a matter of time before Lee took over, even though he doesn't have the title just yet. Don't screw it up, Lee.

So one of the elements in Tory airlocking Cally was indeed jealously. Interesting. She's not going to like Boomer either...

So many questions to be answered - is Daniel Kara, Kara's dad, Baltar, or someone else? What's up with the chips? What's up with Athena and Helo's kid and Six's pregnancy? Is Boomer sincere or playing good for Cavil? Can't wait!

Sela
February 14th, 2009, 06:56 AM
i just realized now we know why cavil told galen he might be a cylon in "lay down your burdens"

wow
Whoa. I had forgotten about that.

Ok, now I'm freaked out again.

Awesome-O
February 14th, 2009, 06:57 AM
It is interesting that the Centurian on Cavils ship allowed Boomer to exit with Ellen. If this Centurian is taking a side and this isn't part of a trap, then some of the other Centurians are surely opposed to Cavil as well, and he may have a revolt to deal with before this series comes to a close. Oddly, maybe the Centurians are taking on the role of Cavils conscience, or lack thereof.

It is interesting that the Cylons are seeking one true god, when they had 5 creators. At the same time, the humans believe in multiple gods. I wonder if this has something to do with the cycle, and somehow reflects the final 5 intervening in the past to try to save humanity.

Briangate78
February 14th, 2009, 07:09 AM
Good episode with lots of info, but moved very slowly. I have to say I am not too shocked by this, I find it almost predictable in a way. I knew Ellen was going to be the last Cylon and had a feeling the last 5 were the creators of the other cylons. I think it's very cool and interesting but nothing shocking. I am still curious about the opera house and how Baltar and Roslyn are releated to that vision. I also have Starbuck pegged as a Hybrid. But I could be wrong about that, I doubt it though.

So I would give this episode a 8.5/10!

abc123
February 14th, 2009, 07:24 AM
I wonder if John is going to get a head-somebody. Nobody can seem to get through to him, and he's too full of spite to believe in a higher power.



Imagine how he would react if he were to be visited by his own personal "angel".

Sela
February 14th, 2009, 07:24 AM
If you're able to access the enhanced replay of the episode from SCIFI.COM I would reccomend that you view it. Lots of information from the commentary to make this all a lot clearer, especially with the progression of the journey of the Final Five. It's very good.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 07:46 AM
Wasn't trying to be a ball buster.

That was a joke. Besides you're the one that misspeeled Rosalin.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 08:04 AM
1) I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that at one point in time someone must have traveled from Earth back to Kobol before the 12 colonies had departed. How else could Athena's tomb contain the hologram of Earth and the Colonials know that Apollo's arrow is somehow tied to find it?

2) There *must* be at least a third party involved. Otherwise, from whence came new-Kara and her new-Viper, the beacon to Earth and her travel to/from Earth?

3) I think that the Earth-Cylon resurrection process somehow looks at the memories of the person being downloaded and builds a body based on information contained therein. If you know what the body is supposed to look like, the specific DNA isn't necessary as you can adapt whatever process to create the body that's needed.

Skydiver
February 14th, 2009, 08:06 AM
Fully agree. When she was describing him it just clicked. It would explain why Kara knew what the Eye of Jupiter was/looked like and why she would draw it constantly on New Caprica. It's gotta be that he is her father and she is the first human and cylon hybrid.

If it works out that way, dude, called kara being a hybrid years ago :)


Great episode. The theories on David (the "worse than boxed" #7) are really interesting and reminded me a lot about Kara's back story that I'd forgotten.

BTW, where do you think Baltar fits into all of this? He's played a big part in events and seems to be tuned into a higher consciousness that seems to overlap the Cylons' abilities.

what if baltar is 'daniel'? what if he's the l atest version of daniel but his memory is repressed like the others were?




Also, Cavil is not just a sadist, but I think in fact he is insane. Of course, perhaps they are one and the same, just manifested differently. Perhaps the psychologists on the board might know the answer to that?

Another thing I just realised from the episode is that Cavil has been keeping Ellens presence a secret from the others - only Boomer knew Ellen was alive.

cavil is nuts. he has an obsessive hate about himself and what he is. He's kind of like the situation where a gay man was raised that homosexuality is bad adn evil, but he knows that he's gay which means that he's bad and evil, so he instead rails against homosexuality, condemning and bashing it, subconsciously and physically trying to 'prove' that he's now the 'bad and evil' peson he's been raised to think that he is.

kinda like the 'methinks you protest too much'.....someone that protests extremely to deny what they really are


Holy Frak, I just had a drunken moment of clarity!

Boomer spirited Ellen off the baseship at the end - which implies that the cylons know where the ragtag fleet is sitting, unless she is taking Ellen elsewhere, but Boomer had her old uniform on which supports my supposition. So why has Calvin not jumped all over the Galatica and the rebel baseship?

or boomer knows where they are and she kept it from cavil. or waht if she was a spy? sent by ther other eights to keep an eye on him

Replicator Todd
February 14th, 2009, 08:07 AM
I kept expecting Hodgman to say something about Windows during the episode.:p

Me too! :lol: He had a very "everything is happy" attitude about him.

g.o.d
February 14th, 2009, 08:45 AM
looks like the Head People (Baltar, Leoben, Six...maybe they're all only one person/being) are even older than the Final Five. I guess they're responsible for Kara's return, for the vission of the fff in the temple on the Algae Planet. Damn, they remind me Beings of Light and even Ascended beings from Stargate. You know, they want to help the humans and the cylons but they can't do it directly.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 08:54 AM
(Back onto a favorite soapbox...)

I honestly don't believe that RDM mapped out where the series was going from day one in general terms. Basically, the general who, what, where and why. From the various articles and interviews out there, it sounds very much as if they didn't know where things were headed and mapped out things when then started to write the next season's episodes.

While I think they did a good job in making some very plausible explanations of things, if they had done developed the general back story of the Final Five and Cavil/John, the Earth-Cylons and what not, they could have ensured much more consistency throughout the series AND deliberately giving us all sorts of hints and subtle references. Not to mention that it would have dramatically influenced the stories told and how they were told.

I don't believe for one minute that RDM knew when Cavil made the comment to Tyrol that he was a Cylon that it had been decided for Tyrol to be a Cylon. I just think that it was a funny line they tossed in there.

madelief
February 14th, 2009, 08:55 AM
omg something just occured to me...
Didn't Leoben say Adama is a cylon?
This "daniel" is none other than Zack Adama!

brthur
February 14th, 2009, 08:55 AM
The angles are humans who have broken the endless cycle and have since evolve. They tried to interfere to stop both wars but failed.

Both? They only appeared after the attack on the colonies. Before that, Baltar and Caprica-Six had each other in person and did not need surrogate head-versions of each other.

brthur
February 14th, 2009, 08:58 AM
Didn't Leoben say Adama is a cylon?
This "daniel" is none other than Zack Adama!

Leoben did not know who any of the final five was (my opinion), has no idea who or what Kara is and finally, i would be thoroughly disappointed, if they pulled Zack out of their head for the last five episodes or so.

Not to mention the whole brother/son thing.

Espeon1962
February 14th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Well, I am up, worked out (and worked all the wine out of my system!) and really enjoying all the speculation and commentary.


...2) There *must* be at least a third party involved. Otherwise, from whence came new-Kara and her new-Viper, the beacon to Earth and her travel to/from Earth?

Thats what I noted as well Hal, about the 2nd or third page of this thread. I still feel there is a third party to be introduced - although I am also thinking that someone we know may reveal themselves to be other then what they are currently. In fact as I type this I am strongly inclined to believe this to be the case.

Someone in this thread noted that some of the information matches to what Baltar has been experiencing, and we have always known there is more to be revealed where Baltar is concerned, so this willl be interesting.

Don't you love an episode that provides so much information yet raises as many questions as it answers?

g.o.d
February 14th, 2009, 09:00 AM
omg something just occured to me...
Didn't Leoben say Adama is a cylon?
This "daniel" is none other than Zack Adama!

Caprica will deal with this and Zak is not a cylon

brthur
February 14th, 2009, 09:01 AM
the podcast is up for this ep http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/417/bsg_ep417_FULL.mp3


and i have to say I was disappointed

I have to say, i was disappointed with the last two podcasts as well. I'm new to the podcast listening, so i cannot say much about older ones, but the last to were borderline boring, with too many moments of silence.

I think i miss Mrs. Ron Moore, those with her were better :-)

g.o.d
February 14th, 2009, 09:02 AM
Well, I am up, worked out (and worked all the wine out of my system!) and really enjoying all the speculation and commentary.



Thats what I noted as well Hal, about the 2nd or third page of this thread. I still feel there is a third party to be introduced - although I am also thinking that someone we know may reveal themselves to be other then what they are currently. In fact as I type this I am strongly inclined to believe this to be the case.

Someone in this thread noted that some of the information matches to what Baltar has been experiencing, and we have always known there is more to be revealed where Baltar is concerned, so this willl be interesting.

Don't you love and episode that provides so much information yet raises as many questions as it answers?

no, because we are forced to wait another week for next answers... :)

brthur
February 14th, 2009, 09:06 AM
(Back onto a favorite soapbox...)

I honestly don't believe that RDM mapped out where the series was going from day one in general terms.

Me neither, he's not J.M. Strawossname :-) But i have to say, so far it works for me, far less trouble for me with the arc than with many Star Trek episodes.

Yesterday i re-watched "Tigh me up, Tigh me down", where Ellen was tested by Baltar to be non-Cylon and i was thinking "Hey, contradiction!" But then i tought okay, it's the bogus Baltar test and hey explicitly said something like "today everybody passes".

Espeon1962
February 14th, 2009, 09:08 AM
no, because we are forced to wait another week for next answers... :)


Well, they say patience is a virtue, and speaking only for myself, I need to cultivate all the virtues I can to help absolve me of my life of sin! :lol:

I noted earlier that where I live they did not have a preview of next week. But some obviously saw a preview. Is it on youtube yet anyone?

brthur
February 14th, 2009, 09:09 AM
no, because we are forced to wait another week for next answers... :)

I was seriously thinking about saving the last few episodes and watch them in a row when the finale was there. But then again, frak it, i need it now. Now! NOW!

g.o.d
February 14th, 2009, 09:10 AM
Well, they say patience is a virtue, and speaking only for myself, I need to cultivate all the virtues I can to help absolve me of my life of sin! :lol:

I noted earlier that where I live they did not have a preview of next week. But some obviously saw a preview. Is it on youtube yet anyone?

yes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyT1GqBhiMg)

brthur
February 14th, 2009, 09:15 AM
3) I think that the Earth-Cylon resurrection process somehow looks at the memories of the person being downloaded and builds a body based on information contained therein. If you know what the body is supposed to look like, the specific DNA isn't necessary as you can adapt whatever process to create the body that's needed.

Memories containing DNA? I heard of the concept of "race memory", where DNA contains memories, but the other way around?

John Cavil already built new copies of the final five, he has all the blueprints to build a fresh Ellen from scratch. Why he wouldn't make here younger but the exact same age she had when she died, i don't know. The copy before that must have been younger, as Tigh knew her since some time.

omgpix
February 14th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Ehh, not a fan of heavy exposition but I suppose it was necessary. What really sold me were Cavil's tirades.

He may be evil, but I don't see him as crazy. I'd be a little pissed if I were in his position. To have been a god but limited because of someone else's superstition... From his POV it'd be like a mother taking a sledgehammer to a child's spine because she thought paraplegia was good and proper.

STC
February 14th, 2009, 10:18 AM
yes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyT1GqBhiMg)


Oooooh, the promo raises even more questions. See Tigh's face when he sees Ellen again! He's with the 6 now, she's pregnant with his child. And suddenly his 'wife' is back? Whom does he choose?? In the podcast Moore says this will be answered in the future episodes and gives us a strong clue by saying something like 'it's not good'...........

Bet Tigh wants to ditch her and take up with Ellen, and the Six goes crazy when he does. Bet someone ends up dead!

There's discussion of leaving the fleet, so perhaps the FF want to go their own way and return to the Colony Cavil mentioned.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 10:20 AM
Memories containing DNA? I heard of the concept of "race memory", where DNA contains memories, but the other way around?

John Cavil already built new copies of the final five, he has all the blueprints to build a fresh Ellen from scratch. Why he wouldn't make here younger but the exact same age she had when she died, i don't know. The copy before that must have been younger, as Tigh knew her since some time.

I'm not saying the memories contain DNA. What I'm saying is that you have memories of what your body looks like and all of its assorted nuances. I can't tell you what's in my DNA, but I can tell you that I'm a 1/2 Greek/ 1/2 English, 5'10", 200lbs, hazel eyes, dark brown hair scrawney arms. I had mole to the left of my chin that was removed. While my teeth are straight, there's a slight space between the front two. On both my feet the 2nd and 3rd toes bend inward toward each other. From all of that, (plus some other assorted personal facts that I know about myself that I will not be sharing here) it would be possible to recreate my body without the specific DNA. Let's say for example that you see a house that you want to build, but the original blueprints aren't available. The originals aren't necessary to create a viable copy it. All you have to do is take pictures of the exterior and interior and then go from there. Furthermore, you don't need to know the specific construction materials because the point isn't to build an exact replica of it, just one that looks the same.

SupreneLord
February 14th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Everyone keeps assuming that Starbuck might be Dainel but i'm thinking it might of been Geta (however you spell his name) I say this because in eps 14 we learn he can draw which Ellen says Dainel was a great artist. Also when they are about to get shot in front of the firing squad Geta says "it stopped itching" and the eps ended. It had me thinking why did the focus on that.

Also who Nuked Earth? I cant seem to figure that out he said the knew it was coming?

knowles2
February 14th, 2009, 10:33 AM
I'm not saying the memories contain DNA. What I'm saying is that you have memories of what your body looks like and all of its assorted nuances. I can't tell you what's in my DNA, but I can tell you that I'm a 1/2 Greek/ 1/2 English, 5'10", 200lbs, hazel eyes, dark brown hair scrawney arms. I had mole to the left of my chin that was removed. While my teeth are straight, there's a slight space between the front two. On both my feet the 2nd and 3rd toes bend inward toward each other. From all of that, (plus some other assorted personal facts that I know about myself that I will not be sharing here) it would be possible to recreate my body without the specific DNA. Let's say for example that you see a house that you want to build, but the original blueprints aren't available. The originals aren't necessary to create a viable copy it. All you have to do is take pictures of the exterior and interior and then go from there.

you make it sound so simple but yes in theory has long as you got a map of the DNA and a artificial Womb not strictly neccessary for a species that still excist it should be possible to recreate a species from scratch, if you have it dna sequence. I believe we have achieve a basic virus so far from scratch, working with the bare basic building blocks. I am unable to remember whether the virus was functional. But it a race between creating a artificial mental nano bots vs a biological virus design and program to repair the body. Who ever achieve the first working version will be a very rich person/company.

Pic
February 14th, 2009, 10:56 AM
OMG my head hurts

Chief is Chief again and Boomer's on her way back to the fleet.
'Captain Apollo' and 'Secretary Roslin' share a moment aboard Colonial One, deciding the fate of the fleet.
And the Cylon family tree is like one of those vines that takes over my back fence in the summer... tenacious and hard to get to the root of.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 11:05 AM
you make it sound so simple but yes in theory has long as you got a map of the DNA and a artificial Womb not strictly neccessary for a species that still excist it should be possible to recreate a species from scratch, if you have it dna sequence. I believe we have achieve a basic virus so far from scratch, working with the bare basic building blocks. I am unable to remember whether the virus was functional. But it a race between creating a artificial mental nano bots vs a biological virus design and program to repair the body. Who ever achieve the first working version will be a very rich person/company.

What I'm saying is that you don't need DNA to create a life form that is a reasonable replica. I'm not talking about making the original exactly as it was - just a replica that in passing will be accepted as the original.

For example, this image (http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/imgs/artists/hanson-duane/duane_hanson_man_bench.jpg) is a real life image. The image itself wasn't doctored. It looks like an elderly man sitting on a bench - which it is. But its not a picture of a real man on a bench. Its a picture of a reasonable replica of a man on a bench. Duane Hanson didn't need any DNA to create the replica. Granted its just a sculpture with no internal working parts. BUT, you don't need DNA to create the internal workings - you just need to know what the structures are and what they're supposed to do. Once you know form and function the composition comes later.

For another analogy, I don't need the schematics for a car and all of its associated parts to build a car. I just need to know what's in the car and what the individual parts do. Once I know that how I build the parts or what I make them out of is superfluous. Keep in mind I'm talking about a reasonable replica not an exact duplicate. Let's say for example that you tell me that the car contains a battery and that the purpose of the battery is to supply electricity to the car. HOW the battery makes or stores electricity is irrelevant for a reasonable replica.

To beat the bush to death...when you make a 'copy' of a document on a copier. You're not making an exact duplicate as there might be differences in the composition of the paper and ink used, but the result is a reasonable replica of the original.

Its all about making a simulacrum. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra)

jollyrogue
February 14th, 2009, 11:20 AM
I have an incline that Starbuck is even older than the final 5 and the people who used to be on earth.. but who knows :P

I think that if Daniel is someone we've seen before he would be someone who wasn't down on new caprica, unless he is somehow related to starbuck, which could add a greater reason as to why she was in a house all the time under the cylon rule.. just my opinion :D

Great episode though.. I can't imagine what a cylon galactica would look like.. i keep thinking of voyager when it was fitted with all the borg stuff and was all green :D.

hoof
February 14th, 2009, 11:41 AM
It is interesting that the Centurian on Cavils ship allowed Boomer to exit with Ellen. If this Centurian is taking a side and this isn't part of a trap, then some of the other Centurians are surely opposed to Cavil as well, and he may have a revolt to deal with before this series comes to a close. Oddly, maybe the Centurians are taking on the role of Cavils conscience, or lack thereof.


I'd been thinking about the centurions as well. According to the final five, the centurions were fighting the humans because the humans enslaved them. They made an agreement with the final five to make skinjobs with resurrection tech in exchange for leaving the humans alone. However, we now know the skinjobs took over and inhibited the centurion's higher-level brain functions, in essence re-enslaving them, again to humanoids. The skinjobs (esp. Cavil) are responsible for the Cylons going after the humans again. The fact that the inhibiters were removed (to the shock of Cavil who knew the real story) might be a sign of an impending rebellion of the mechanical centurions from the skinjobs. That actually might be an improvement for the RTF, as the Final five's intentions were to tell the 12 colonies to treat the mechanicals well, and that they were subverted by the skinjobs. I would not be surprised if Cavil shows up to destroy the RTF, and the centurions revolt since they know the final five are onboard (after all, the raiders already did just that at the start of season 4).

How about this for a theory on the last few episodes: Ellen returns to the fleet, Cavil in tow. Cavil attempts to destroy the RTF, but the centurions rebel. Earth cylons, who didn't have FTL tech finally arrive, the two centurions fight each other, and the 12-colony centurions win. The 12-colony centurions, appreciative of the final 5's intentions let the RTF go and the RTF find a planet to colonize, starting the cycle all over again :)

Don't forget the fact the final 5 did carry out their end of the bargain despite the unintended consequences. As "Cavil" says elsewhere in the series, they're machines, and keep their bargains (unlike humans). There's no reason they wouldn't carry out their original end of the bargain (to leave the Humans alone) once they overthrow their skinjobs. After all, it wasn't the humans who re-enslaved them, but the skinjobs. And the 2nd cylon war was the skinjob's plan, not the centurions.

tricky
February 14th, 2009, 12:23 PM
So much info to process: might have to rewatch it to catch it all again.

Ok, the preview of next weeks ep. has the 5 deciding if they should leave the fleet.

Anyone catch what Anders said as he was being wheeled into surgery? I thought he said things like "happening again", and more importantly "stay with the fleet". Anyone catch that, or was I off basestar again?

Oh, and I don't remember Ellen Tigh looking so...hot. (well, maybe when they kept having Saul see 6 as herself and Ellen)

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 12:29 PM
RTF?

I *finally* just got a chance to actually watch. I do like how they formally explained the Temple of the Five/Temple of the Hopes and that they didn't add their hologram, further proof that there's something more going on. Maybe its the Twelve Lords of Kobol waiting around to see if their children would ever grown up.

A few posts back someone asked the question as to why the Earth-Cylons would abandon resurrection once they were able to procreate. I would suggest that it was tied to the pain & agony that repeated resurrection brings, not to mention that once you know that this is all that there is, you learn to enjoy life every moment because the next could be your last with nothing else.

hoof
February 14th, 2009, 12:54 PM
RTF?


RTF = "R"ag "T"ag "F"leet. :)

I did a search, there is one "Daniel" in the fleet who might actually be #7 (or a red herring). In "Hero", the pilot who returns is called "Daniel". Maybe he actually died when the Valkyrie shot him down and he downloaded (into one of the few bodies not ruined), but Cavil decided to torment him instead (after all, Cavil doesn't like #7). Or maybe he lived, but again Cavil intervened to have him tortured.

Thinking about it, of the final 5, only Tigh has seen him in the fleet. It's very likely neither Anders nor Ellen, the only two who remember #7, have seen this Daniel, so it can easily fit the storyline if he indeed is our #7 called Daniel.

Probably a stretch, but this Daniel is a "Daniel" and has circumstances that allow him to be #7 if RDM decides him to be it.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 12:59 PM
RTF = "R"ag "T"ag "F"leet. :)

I did a search, there is one "Daniel" in the fleet who might actually be #7 (or a red herring). In "Hero", the pilot who returns is called "Daniel". Maybe he actually died when the Valkyrie shot him down and he downloaded (into one of the few bodies not ruined), but Cavil decided to torment him instead (after all, Cavil doesn't like #7). Or maybe he lived, but again Cavil intervened to have him tortured.

Thinking about it, of the final 5, only Tigh has seen him in the fleet. It's very likely neither Anders nor Ellen, the only two who remember #7, have seen this Daniel, so it can easily fit the storyline if he indeed is our #7 called Daniel.

Probably a stretch, but this Daniel is a "Daniel" and has circumstances that allow him to be #7 if RDM decides him to be it.

It'd all be retcon if RDM and the Gang were to work it out like that. Since they never had a general idea of where they were going from start to finish (apart from the general events of the final episode).

Skydiver
February 14th, 2009, 01:07 PM
cavil hasn't slept for 20 years?

can explain why he's such a freaking nut :)

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 01:21 PM
cavil hasn't slept for 20 years?

can explain why he's such a freaking nut :)

Starbucks will do that.

Skydiver
February 14th, 2009, 01:26 PM
lol

sleep deprivation can literally drive you crazy

whether thinks he needs it or not, cavil not sleeping for decades could be why he's so bugnuts about being in a human body, etc.

and, was i imagining it, or when anders said 'you're glowing' was kara only half glowing?

Skydiver
February 14th, 2009, 01:28 PM
oh, and, was i right in hearing that the 5 can't reproduce biologically but the others can?

so tori, anders, galen...tigh can't reproduce????

if i heard right and am remembering right, who's six's baby-daddy?

Vala_Hala
February 14th, 2009, 01:37 PM
oh, and, was i right in hearing that the 5 can't reproduce biologically but the others can?

so tori, anders, galen...tigh can't reproduce????

if i heard right and am remembering right, who's six's baby-daddy?

No, the 5 can, but the 8 they created can't. Purposely so. Betcha it was happily agreed to by the centurions, who probably didn't want a renewing, like the Earth Cylons of the cycle, which seems to happen, when you get a bunch of biologicals, be they human or cylon in origin, deciding that machines would make wonderful slave labor.

Berg417448
February 14th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Its the 7 who can't reproduce biologically. The cylons from the 13th tribe either abandoned or otherwise lost resurrection technology and the 5 had to rediscover it.

Skydiver
February 14th, 2009, 01:47 PM
so if the 5 (tigh, ellen, galen, tori, anders) CAN reproduce biologically but the seven (six/gina, leoban, cavil, boomer) can't....then something has obviously changed from what ellen made, cause we have hera and we have tigh/six's child

did something change, or was something changed (as in someone reprogrammed them)

Sela
February 14th, 2009, 01:49 PM
cavil hasn't slept for 20 years?

Can explain why he's such a freaking nut :)
roflmao!!!

Tain
February 14th, 2009, 01:51 PM
so if the 5 (tigh, ellen, galen, tori, anders) CAN reproduce biologically but the seven (six/gina, leoban, cavil, boomer) can't....then something has obviously changed from what ellen made, cause we have hera and we have tigh/six's child

did something change, or was something changed (as in someone reprogrammed them)

I think it was meant that the 7 cannot reproduce with other members of the 7. Hera comes from a 7/human pairing, and 6's baby comes from a 7/final 5 pairing. No children are from 7/7 pairings, so I think it still fits.

Sela
February 14th, 2009, 01:55 PM
so if the 5 (tigh, ellen, galen, tori, anders) CAN reproduce biologically but the seven (six/gina, leoban, cavil, boomer) can't....then something has obviously changed from what ellen made, cause we have hera and we have tigh/six's child

did something change, or was something changed (as in someone reprogrammed them)

If Cavil could turn off a part of his program, (sleep) maybe they could turn part of theirs on...?

*headdesk...

....it's too much.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 02:00 PM
No, the 5 can, but the 8 they created can't. Purposely so. Betcha it was happily agreed to by the centurions, who probably didn't want a renewing, like the Earth Cylons of the cycle, which seems to happen, when you get a bunch of biologicals, be they human or cylon in origin, deciding that machines would make wonderful slave labor.

There's no evidence that the Centurions were aware of what took place on Earth. And I believe that nothing has been presented indicating that the Five developed the hybrids without the ability to reproduce. It was stated that the Earth-Cylons originally didn't reproduce that it was something they later attained.

JMLLA
February 14th, 2009, 02:37 PM
A few thoughts/questions:
1. As someone else mentioned, Anders was telling Tigh to stay on the ship...I guess he's talking about what is going to happen on next weeks episode

2. Starbuck did not seem to have the same glowing light the others had

3. I think the Lords of Kobal are the Angels Baltar, Six, and the FF see

4. Did the FF ever mention they had seen Angels? And is that what Anders was talking about when he said Tori saw a woman and Gaelen saw a man on earth nobody else could see?

4. How did Ellen resurect? The resurection ship was already destroyed.

5. If this is a different resurection ship, why do they need Ellen to help them build another one?

Berg417448
February 14th, 2009, 02:45 PM
The resurrection hub had not yet been destroyed when Ellen resurrected. She did so right after she died back on New Caprica, not in present time.

JMLLA
February 14th, 2009, 03:06 PM
the hub was destroyed right after they found the Pegasus. Before New Caprica.

Berg417448
February 14th, 2009, 03:22 PM
the hub was destroyed right after they found the Pegasus. Before New Caprica.



The Resurrection Hub was destroyed when the humans and cylons attacked it together long after New Caprica. Remember the whole attack that cylon #6 model Natalie proposed to the humans?

You are thinking of the resurrection ship they attacked and destroyed earlier. It was just one of several resurrection ships the Cylons had.

tech100
February 14th, 2009, 03:26 PM
After rewatching the episode

Just before Anders surgery Starbuck told Anders that she waited to long. She thought she was the 7th.

Seems like Starbuck knew the name Daniel (not the cylon but the name) (Are you sure it was Daniel). Then Anders says he then a sentence later she died.

Its interesting that Anders tells Tigh to stay with the fleet.

RHALX
February 14th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Is it me or is Boomer totally underdevelopped? She switched from being an important character in the serie to some standing around no.8 who barely ever say anything.

Does anyone thought about Cavil letting them both leave to be able to follow them to the human fleet? We still don't know what Boomer has in mind.

JMLLA
February 14th, 2009, 03:29 PM
I stand corrected.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 04:13 PM
Summary of the show to bring all the facts together, and just the facts..
I've left out speculation and anything that might be assumed.

-The Earth Cylons originally had resurrection technology which they abandoned once they started to procreate.

-Some of the Final Five saw angels who took different forms.

-The Final Five were scientists on Earth who sought to figure out resurrection technology.

-Each of the Final Five played a part in the developing the technology. No one is solely responsible. Ellen made the break through.

-The Final Five were killed during the holocaust, were resurrected onto the ship that they had placed into orbit and then traveled at near light speed to warn the other tribes. They followed the route that the 13th tribe took to Earth to return to Kobol.

-The Temple of the Five (aka Temple of Hopes) was built by the 13th Tribe, not the Final Five. The Final Five did not modify it to reveal their identities.

-The Final Five came up on the Colonies sometime after the war had started. By the time they arrived, the Colonial Centurions had begun experimenting with hybrids.

-The Final Five bargained with the Centurions to end the war in exchange for creating the Hybrids. The new hybrids were created in an effort to bring together the Centurions belief in one God with man's ability to show mercy and love.

-Cavil was the first of the new hybrids and modeled after Ellen's father. He was named 'John'.

-Cavil killed the first of the 'Sevens' named Daniel and subsequently damaged the genetic blue print so that no more could be created.

-Cavil turned on the Final Five and killed them. At some point, they were resurrected and their memories of their prior life blocked. They were then placed into the human population.

-Cavil modified his own programming to no longer sleep.

-Following her death on New Caprica, Ellen was resurrected on a Cavil-controlled basestar in orbit above Caprica. (No information was provided as to how the resurrection occurred without a body.)

-Ellen remained on Cavil's basestar from the events on New Caprica through 2 days prior to the events of 'No Exit.'

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 04:24 PM
That being said here's what has not been proven...

-There is no evidence as to who fired the first shot in the holocaust or the final outcome of any survivors other than the Final Five.

-There is no evidence that the Centurion who was with Boomer & Ellen had his higher brain functions inhibited or uninhibited.

-There is no additional, definitive information provided as to Starbuck's true identity, destiny or the circumstances surrounding her death & return.

-There is no evidence that one of the Number Seven's survived or was rescued and was somewhere in the Colonies, is Kara's father or was at any time in the fleet.

-There is no evidence that Cavill is a homosexual.*

-There is no definitive evidence that Cavill is the one who programmed the other Significant Seven to NOT think about the Final Five.



*Had to toss that in there, someone just mentioned Dumbeldore to me.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 04:26 PM
(Trying to keep the topics of my posts separate...)

-Does anyone else think that Ellen should have just flat out suggested to Cavill that he lobotomize himself and plug himself into the ship taking over for a Hybrid?

knowles2
February 14th, 2009, 04:49 PM
-Each of the Final Five played a part in the developing the technology. No one is solely responsible. Ellen made the break through.

-

I do not believe Tigh had anything to do with the resurrection project, as Ellen seemed to informed him only after he uncovered her from the rubble that she had a plan to save them both, he would of known that he would be resurrected if he was involve in the project. Of cause she told a lie to the cavil to make his task more difficult, four it a lot more difficult to receive than three or even just the one, the chief. Also one dies he looses his only hope of rebuilding the resurrection technology as far he knows. It seem that mainly ellen and the chief was behind the actually technology and they just choose their love ones to the be the ones they transfer to the new bodies.

Then again may be I missed something, still have not had time to rewatch the ep.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 05:07 PM
I do not believe Tigh had anything to do with the resurrection project, as Ellen seemed to informed him only after he uncovered her from the rubble that she had a plan to save them both, he would of known that he would be resurrected if he was involve in the project. Of cause she told a lie to the cavil to make his task more difficult, four it a lot more difficult to receive than three or even just the one, the chief. Also one dies he looses his only hope of rebuilding the resurrection technology as far he knows. It seem that mainly ellen and the chief was behind the actually technology and they just choose their love ones to the be the ones they transfer to the new bodies.

Then again may be I missed something, still have not had time to rewatch the ep.

The statement was only "Its ok, everything's in place. We'll be reborn again. Together." Given that the statement was made in a flashback and that Tigh didnot have any other memories it can be taken as-is.

It is assumed that she told the truth about needing all five - this isn't Lost afterall. Also, Anders made the independent statement that they all worked in the same research facility. (iTunes Time code 13:38)

I've been downloading and saving the eps on my laptop via iTunes.

apollo123
February 14th, 2009, 05:09 PM
Guys it's simple. Daniel is Dirk Benedict, the original Starbuck. His daughter is Kara, new Starbuck. Mystery solved.

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 05:13 PM
Guys it's simple. Daniel is Dirk Benedict, the original Starbuck. His daughter is Kara, new Starbuck. Mystery solved.

If it plays out like that, I would be ROTFLMAO PIMP. RDM did toss out the idea of having him show up dressed in white and say 'Hello, I'm God'

tech100
February 14th, 2009, 05:15 PM
*Its ok, everything's in place. We'll be reborn again. Together.



We could assume that Tigh knew they (final five) were working on resurection but did not know it was ready to go. Ellen was telling Tigh that resurection was ready and everything is in place.

Sue_Jackson
February 14th, 2009, 05:49 PM
so if the 5 (tigh, ellen, galen, tori, anders) CAN reproduce biologically but the seven (six/gina, leoban, cavil, boomer) can't....then something has obviously changed from what ellen made, cause we have hera and we have tigh/six's child

did something change, or was something changed (as in someone reprogrammed them)

Oh...man. Just when you thought you would get more answers as time goes on......you just end up with more questions. I'm sooo frakkin' confused. :S

h22chen
February 14th, 2009, 06:04 PM
I'm guessing on this one on why I understand now the old Centurions were destroyed/genocided and replaced by the new (insect like) Centurions with inhibitors.

1) the former ones have AI and have free will, the new Centurions do not (The 13-Colony Centurions have no inhibitors)

2) Anders/Ellen said that the Centurions believed in One loving God, so they would need and respect the "final 5" Cyclons because they see them as a way to be at peace with the Humans. (related to point 3)

3) the former ones know of the final 5 (hence the peace treaty of the 1st war) and will oppose Cavil and his vision of revenge (I'm theorizing that it's because of Cavil, there's the 2nd war in which Admiral Adama is in right now)

4) which can explain why Cavil wanted to lobotomize the raiders (from reasons 1, 2 and 3)

So in another unreleated theory, I'm saying that it was Cavil that made the Cylons return for a 2nd war to wipe out the humans.

Bruman
February 14th, 2009, 06:13 PM
I wonder if Ellen is going to be jealous that Saul has a new girlfriend who's pregnant?

anotherquestion
February 14th, 2009, 06:17 PM
Ellen created Cavil to resemble her father, John. Curiously enough, Katie's Vernon's actual father is John Vernon, who himself is an actor who usually plays "bad guy" roles (Dean Wormer in Animal House, the Mob boss in "Charley Varrick"). Dean Stockwell should not necessarily feel complimented.
Dean Stockwell as Cavil absolutely sold some fairly obtuse ideas and propositions in this episode. Too bad he hasn't been used more in this series, he is a standout talent.
The whole cycle of life is one long chain of betrayals and rebellions: creature against creator, brother against brother, son against "mother"--all very Freudian. John/Cavil and Baltar seem to be the Princes in this capacity.
Ellen is not apologetic about making the skin jobs. They lack procreative abilities but possess free will. Well so did the Centurions before they were "dumbed down" by Cavil. Why surrender this ability ? Seems like a Faustian bargain was made by the Centurions with the Final Five.
Why would the 13th tribe on Earth forsake immortality in the form of Resurrection technology ? Sure, given the ability to reproduce would lead to a tremendous population explosion, but not dying seems to be an ability not lightly surrendered. Ray Kurzweil writes about virtual immortality as an aspect of self-directed evolution in "The Age of Spiritual Machines" (http://www.amazon.com/Age-Spiritual-Machines-Computers-Intelligence/dp/0140282025) Seems like the "invisible hand" guiding all evolution is the propagation of exact copies of your DNA. Resurrection technology meets this end.
There's been a whole lot of forgetting going on to make these threads of plot come together. The Final Five forgot who they were and what they did. The Significant Seven forgot their "parents" and the missing model 7. The 13th Colony on Earth forgot FTL travel and resurrection technology. The centurions forgot how to talk. Admiral Adama forgot the treachery of the Cylons and made a new alliance with them. You can only blame Cavil for some of this forgetting, he hasn't been around long enough, in theory, to be responsible for a lot of it. There are still a lot of loose ends to tie up.

Vis Uban
February 14th, 2009, 06:26 PM
So in another unreleated theory, I'm saying that it was Cavil that made the Cylons return for a 2nd war to wipe out the humans.

I certainly got that same impression. The Final Five wanted to prevent war between humans and their creations, and it was Cavil, who disagreed with them on almost every level, that betrayed and exiled them. His hatred of humans, indeed the basic human form, would also lend credence to his willingness to start the war.

Also, it was implied by Ellen and Cavil that he had wanted to start the war because of how "the Centurian side of the family" had been treated. Add to this the fact that Cavil seemed to be the defacto Cylon leader, probably due to his position as the first model, and you have Cavil most likely being responsible for pushing the war with the Colonies.

Skydiver
February 14th, 2009, 06:41 PM
Why would the 13th tribe on Earth forsake immortality in the form of Resurrection technology ?
\
maybe to instill some humility and fear and responsibility into them

remember how the cylons acted when they had a resurrection hub? they'd sacrifice the life of another or their own life in a heart beat. because it was eminently disposable and replaceable. they, playing pretend here, could have immersed themselves into junk lives because who cared if they died? they didn't die. they could, basically, waste themselves.

making resurrection go away changes that. now that they only have one life, they have to cherish it and protect it and be responsible with it

h22chen
February 14th, 2009, 06:43 PM
I certainly got that same impression. The Final Five wanted to prevent war between humans and their creations, and it was Cavil, who disagreed with them on almost every level, that betrayed and exiled them. His hatred of humans, indeed the basic human form, would also lend credence to his willingness to start the war.

Also, it was implied by Ellen and Cavil that he had wanted to start the war because of how "the Centurian side of the family" had been treated. Add to this the fact that Cavil seemed to be the defacto Cylon leader, probably due to his position as the first model, and you have Cavil most likely being responsible for pushing the war with the Colonies.

Wow, we're not the only ones thinking that, I just found out that Hoof also made a similar conclusion as we did in the previous page 9 (that's for skipping, doh!)

Corona
February 14th, 2009, 06:55 PM
So is it safe to say that the religions of BSG are all made up fantasies designed for people control?

All made up bs!

HAL2100
February 14th, 2009, 06:58 PM
There's been a whole lot of forgetting going on to make these threads of plot come together. The Final Five forgot who they were and what they did. The Significant Seven forgot their "parents" and the missing model 7. The 13th Colony on Earth forgot FTL travel and resurrection technology. The centurions forgot how to talk. Admiral Adama forgot the treachery of the Cylons and made a new alliance with them. You can only blame Cavil for some of this forgetting, he hasn't been around long enough, in theory, to be responsible for a lot of it. There are still a lot of loose ends to tie up.


Technically its not a matter of 'forgetting' when it comes to Adama but of deliberately programming/reprogramming them. In terms of Adama, there comes a point where you have to look at the future and the things necessary for survival. Keep in mind that he's been given examples of reasons to trust them, case in point Athena. Not to mention that Saul & Tyrol's continued acting in a trustworthy manner.

(BTW - I laughed when Tyrol asked if he trusted a Cylon to be in his crew to which Adama noted that he already had a Cylon XO.

P-90_177
February 14th, 2009, 07:11 PM
So is it safe to say that the religions of BSG are all made up fantasies designed for people control?

All made up bs!

just like real world religion then. (that's just my opinion by the way.)

Browncoat1984
February 14th, 2009, 07:17 PM
I wonder if Ellen is going to be jealous that Saul has a new girlfriend who's pregnant?

I don't think so. I was thinking during the episode...if John was created in her father's image could Six be created in -her- image? That might explain the scenes earlier in the series where Saul thought he was seeing Ellen instead of six...

Berg417448
February 14th, 2009, 07:42 PM
This interview of Kate Vernon says that #Six was not modeled after Ellen.

http://www.accesshollywood.com/dish-...n_video_940001

GateTrek2004
February 14th, 2009, 09:19 PM
so if the 5 (tigh, ellen, galen, tori, anders) CAN reproduce biologically but the seven (six/gina, leoban, cavil, boomer) can't....then something has obviously changed from what ellen made, cause we have hera and we have tigh/six's child

did something change, or was something changed (as in someone reprogrammed them)

im under the impression it takes a FF (Tigh) to mate with a SS (Six) to get pregnant. Maybe thats what would be needed to allow the 7 to get/to get someone pregnant.

I'm Thinking This:
The 4 Males: Cavil, Leoben, Simon and Doral Could get Ellen or Tory Pregnant and the 3 Females: Six, Sharon, D'Anna can have a child by Tigh, Tyrol and Anders.

Like having a Mixed Heritage Child: Black/White, Hispanic/Black ect...

GateTrek2004
February 14th, 2009, 09:28 PM
A few thoughts/questions:
1. As someone else mentioned, Anders was telling Tigh to stay on the ship...I guess he's talking about what is going to happen on next weeks episode

2. Starbuck did not seem to have the same glowing light the others had

3. I think the Lords of Kobal are the Angels Baltar, Six, and the FF see

4. Did the FF ever mention they had seen Angels? And is that what Anders was talking about when he said Tori saw a woman and Gaelen saw a man on earth nobody else could see?

5. How did Ellen resurect? The resurection ship was already destroyed

6. If this is a different resurection ship, why do they need Ellen to help them build another one?

#5: I'm under the Impression that Cavil has ALWAYS known about the FF. That would be why he made extra body for Ellen so when she died, she would download into that body and only Cavil would know about it. It's been told that Cavil Killed the FF by Asphyxiation, then they re-downloaded them into new bodies and sent to live in the colonies with false memories like Boomer was a sleeper.

She resurrected when they were on New Caprica! That was set 18 months ago from the start of the episode. According to the episode, It's been 4 months since they destroyed the Hub in "Hub" Thats when Downloading was no longer an option. It would REALLY explain why the RTF has not seen the Cylons since!

#6: Cavil only needed her help AFTER the Hub was destroyed. According to Ellen, it would take all 5 of the FF to Re-Resurrect Resurrection Technology, but Cavil Thinks that's Crap.

GateTrek2004
February 14th, 2009, 09:38 PM
(Trying to keep the topics of my posts separate...)

-Does anyone else think that Ellen should have just flat out suggested to Cavill that he lobotomize himself and plug himself into the ship taking over for a Hybrid?

I kinda thought that too cause that's what essentially sp? the hybrids do

Corona
February 14th, 2009, 09:51 PM
How do we fit Kara being the harbinger of doom into this?

Forthestars
February 14th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Anyone get the Paradise lost vibe with this episode between the cavil and Ellen conversation aka Lucifer and God. It is one reason I like BSG, because there is a very interesting metaphysical discussion going on beneath all the talk too. Brother Cavil as he was known in the early part of the show was like a religious fanatic.

Then, the sexual component is another level that makes this such a fun Psychological show, Cavil obviously enjoyed screwing his creator in a very perverse Oedipal complex kind of way. Cavil desires something that human beings want, but most know it is impossible, absolute control. His entire reasoning from the way he boxed the final five to the new Caprica to the Cylon Civil War has all been about control.

If we accept Cavil as more human than he knows, then he has followed the fallacy of reason to its utter disappointment. Think about a person trying to pursue a life of absolute rational decisions without letting in any type of randomness. He is trying to emulate a machine's pure reason drive like 1's or 0's i.e. true or false, but machines cannot predict everything. In the end there will always be a bit of chaos or gray areas; no matter how Machine-like you might try to be.

Saadie
February 14th, 2009, 10:53 PM
Also it will be interesting to know who wrote The Book of Pythia, I mean if I am not missing something , that person seem to had fair knowledge of earth and also about the temple of five. Again just a speculation but maybe there is a 3rd power who is pulling the strings.

Saadie
February 14th, 2009, 11:02 PM
Also it will be interesting to know who wrote The Book of Pythia, I mean if I am not missing something , that person seem to had fair knowledge of earth and also about the temple of five. Again just a speculation but maybe there is a 3rd power who is pulling the strings.

GateTrek2004
February 14th, 2009, 11:59 PM
According to the Enhanced Version showed on Scifi.com with Ron Moore

"Daniel Has Signifigance in Caprica as Well"

The only Daniel in Caprica is Daniel Graystone.

Will this mean anything???

Put in spoilers just to be sure!

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 12:04 AM
What did ellen mean when she said "you should have brought a tambrall?" sp?

salmidach
February 15th, 2009, 01:23 AM
How do we fit Kara being the harbinger of doom into this?

i have a theory on this. I do believe that Kara is the offspring from Daniel and Socreta (think that's Kara's mum's name). so in essence she is a new race of being and slowly through her and the likes of Hera and the baby that the six is carrying, this will mean the end of the human race as we presently know it, they will become a cylon/human race of beings....

thus kara being the harbinger of doom, the first of a new race, set in motion this new race and with only 39K of humans remaining and evidently a battle soon to come the gene pool is severly diminished thus enabling the new race to flourish..

also there is another point to back this up. in the episode "Farm", why was Kara treated differently to the rest of the women, why wasn't she just hooked up to one of the machines like the rest of the woment there? I think it was because the cylons found out then that she was somehow different to the other humans and that was the reason why they kept her seperate and tried to bluff her with the idea that she had been rescued and was in a resistence hospital.

g.o.d
February 15th, 2009, 01:28 AM
i have a theory on this. I do believe that Kara is the offspring from Daniel and Socreta (think that's Kara's mum's name). so in essence she is a new race of being and slowly through her and the likes of Hera and the baby that the six is carrying, this will mean the end of the human race as we presently know it, they will become a cylon/human race of beings....

thus kara being the harbinger of doom, the first of a new race, set in motion this new race and with only 39K of humans remaining and evidently a battle soon to come the gene pool is severly diminished thus enabling the new race to flourish..

also there is another point to back this up. in the episode "Farm", why was Kara treated differently to the rest of the women, why wasn't she just hooked up to one of the machines like the rest of the woment there? I think it was because the cylons found out then that she was somehow different to the other humans and that was the reason why they kept her seperate and tried to bluff her with the idea that she had been rescued and was in a resistence hospital.

very interesting theory

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 01:38 AM
Cause I'm a BSG Geek with nothing to do at work at nights, ive rewatched the beginning part a few times when Sam is speaking during Doc Cottle's Operation. Here's what I heard

"I'm on Bright Stars. I'm Lost."

"Dead as the "something"(Thought Rip) Tide, and all the forgotten faces all the forgotten children. We seek the great forgotten language."

" ***** much that The Colony never Forgets"
Starbuck and Cottle were speaking in the beginning where ***** was and i did not hear that he said before "much"

"The Mind is it's own place. The end of it's *****"
Again Starbuck and Cottle were speaking after the ***** was and i did not hear that he said after "it's"

" ***** the hell, the Hell of Heaven. He who is Guile, stirred with revenge and anger, Decieved the Mother and Mandkind and all the Forgotten Faces. We Seek..." (Anders had that reflex which stopped the rest of line)
Again Starbuck and Cottle were speaking in the beginning where ***** was and i did not hear that he said before "hell"

Next It sounds to me like he very Softly says "Kara"

"We've been to that beach too. Yes We've been to that beach. Sometimes Ellen would be there too. Because she loved the water. She loves the water"


If anyone hears better than I do and can fill in the Blanks Feel free to comment back on this!

Is there a "Reliable" Script out there to see that those lines were?

SBN
February 15th, 2009, 01:46 AM
Seeing John Hodgman as the neural surgeon made me really think how much fun it would be to see some of the Daily show news team (excuse me, the Best F**** news team on TV) do interviews with Odama, Roslyn, etc..I want to see Jason Jones at his most offensive sexist interview a female cyclon, you can just imagine where that interview would go.

knowles2
February 15th, 2009, 01:55 AM
So is it safe to say that the religions of BSG are all made up fantasies designed for people control?

All made up bs!

Like Religion here on earth, they are just words which can install believe into people, with a bit of fan fare and great speaker saying those words, Hitler, Churchill were both great speakers of the last hundred year, Obarma and Martin Luther King rank not far below them. And Roslin and Adarma can both give great speeches.
If the people who saying those words can control their interpretation and meaning of those words then you can control what people do in support of those words. This why there are fanatical cults, this how the extreme interpretations of the Koran the bible every other religious text around have led to wars in the past and in the present and in the future.
Adarma and Roslin use one interpretation on their religious text to pull the fleet together and set off to find earth, with powerful speech to get past the people doubt. Cavil is using his interpetation to destroy all humans, the final five probably using their interpetation to help create a single race of beings. that can live peace and harmony, the Angles are probably using a other interpretation for all we know.
This is just what I think, debating it would probably only lead this thread of topic.


How do we fit Kara being the harbinger of doom into this?

I think she was sent their by the same people who gave the visions to the final five and guided them to the new colonies and been giving visions to Baltar and the six. Their plan, is to end the cycle by any means necessary, even the complete destruction of the two sides is possibility.
This is my little theory.

Corona
February 15th, 2009, 02:20 AM
May I suggest watching one viewing of the episodes with closed captioning on. There are a lot of words which get lost in the mumble and with cc, there they are. It's real time cc, not delayed. I was missing a lot.

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 02:37 AM
May I suggest watching one viewing of the episodes with closed captioning on. There are a lot of words which get lost in the mumble and with cc, there they are. It's real time cc, not delayed. I was missing a lot.

Now i know what i'm doing when i get home! Watching No Exit Yet again!

Osiris
February 15th, 2009, 03:25 AM
So is it safe to say that the religions of BSG are all made up fantasies designed for people control?

All made up bs!

What's the difference with "our" religions, then? :p

Mongoletsi
February 15th, 2009, 03:31 AM
1) So the 8 models aged?
2) If starbuck is Daniel or even Daniel's daughter - Who bought her back/resurrected her and gave her a spanking new ship????
3) Will Anders die and suddenly appear on Cavil's stolen resurrection ship?

1) They keep referring to "John" as a "boy" but perhaps it's not intended to be taken literally. I think now that they might though.
2) Good question. I hope it gets answered.
3) I'm not usually into all that meta-physical crap, but... Anders brain emptied, and Saul/Six baby just started kicking. Hohum...

Mongoletsi
February 15th, 2009, 03:35 AM
So Ellen slept with Cavil on New Caprica....Ellen created Cavil to look like her father....EWWWWWW!!

Aye but she didn't have her "Final Five" memories then.

peragrin
February 15th, 2009, 04:16 AM
3) I'm not usually into all that meta-physical crap, but... Anders brain emptied, and Saul/Six baby just started kicking. Hohum...

oh that is a scary thought. the final five download into new babies, unless their is a resurrection point close enough to download into a clone body?

Mongoletsi
February 15th, 2009, 05:05 AM
Nice episode, it was one where the credits came up and I got up and said "NOT YET!" Haven't had a moment like that in a while. Ellen=awesome.

First time we've ever agreed on something!

the missing 7
February 15th, 2009, 05:23 AM
3) Will Anders die and suddenly appear on Cavil's stolen resurrect ship?

no the cylons can't resurrect anymore

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 06:26 AM
Ok, so my math ain't so good, but don't 7 plus 5 add up to 12?

The opening sequence of the show has always told us that there are only 12 models.

We already had the seven:

01. Cavil
02. Leoben Conoy
03. D'Anna
04. Doctor Simon
05. Aaron Doral
06. Caprica 6/Gina/Natalie
07. (1 of final 5)
08. Sharon Valeri/Agathon
09. (2 of final 5)
10. (3 of final 5)
11. (4 of final 5)
12. (5 of final 5)

and then the final five are:

1. Galan Tyrol
2. Saul Tigh
3. Tory Foster
4. Samuel T. Anders
5. Ellen Tigh

Now they're talking about a boxed number 7 like that slot wasn't already filled.

Apparently there ARE more than 12 models, it's just that there are only 12 ACTIVE models.

Well, I was right in my guess that the Colonial Cylons didn't invent resurrection tech and that the Earth Cylons had traveled to Colonial Cylon occupied space on a sub-light speed space ship.

So, Brother "John" Cavil is a certified motherfrakker. I didn't see that coming. It seems that he is the root of all recent Cylon evil as well. You just had to figure it'd be the preacher.

Corona
February 15th, 2009, 06:34 AM
What's the difference with "our" religions, then? :p
The difference is that while I may believe religion is all made up people control, I wasn't willing to go that far since this is a discussion of BSG and not real world theology.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 06:59 AM
Why would the 13th tribe on Earth forsake immortality in the form of Resurrection technology ? Sure, given the ability to reproduce would lead to a tremendous population explosion, but not dying seems to be an ability not lightly surrendered.
... There are still a lot of loose ends to tie up.


For sure, that makes no sense at all, unless they didn't age, but Saul Tigh has clearly aged during his stint as a "human" among the 12 colonies.

It's a Space Opera. The producers are going after the hanky and tissue grabbing audience and don't have much use for anybody with a magnifying glass. They've since recognized that they are out of their element. Their next project, "As Caprica Turns", will allow them to play to their strengths.

dasmachinen
February 15th, 2009, 07:23 AM
I looked forward to this episode but I felt it was a big! let down. It seemed like a massive excuse to try to justify the 'trick the internet blogs' plot twists of Tigh being a cylon and the Anders/Tigh/Ellen/Tori/Galen clan being some sort of super scientists that engineered all this??:(:(:(

I think Tigh/Ellen couple being the supreme couple is what Hollywood calls 'jumping the shark'. I loved the series but now its looking like a hodgepog. After the great mutiny episodes, this one was not anywhere near the quality of writing. And it really sounded like nonsense actually as Anders was spouting all that stuff making Tigh/Ellen the supremo beings.

I hope they do much better in the following episodes. If they wrote the series end as a collection of ideas to out-guess the bloggers rather than as the premier story it should have been, they wasted our time watching the series and will dishonour the great casting.:S

g.o.d
February 15th, 2009, 07:26 AM
that's what usually happens. Poeple forget. In the ancient Greece, people knew the Earth was round and in the middle ages, peeple believed the Earth is flat.


Cylons on Earth simply forgot how to use the ressurection technology, because they simply didn't need it. That's what happened.