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Awesome-O
February 15th, 2009, 07:27 AM
I thought it would be interesting if Earth was inhabited by humans before the holocaust. Consider a human version of Ellen, Tigh & Co. on Earth thousands of years ago, in an effort to warn the colonies re-discovering Cylon resurrection technology. Essentially turning themselves from humans into the first skinjobs after their first download after the holocaust.

I know that in ep. 4x11, one of the Galactica crew said that Earth's population was all Cylon, but as far as I know, there was never an accurate test for it (except for say that glowing red backbone of Six during sex).

I know this is WAAAAYYY out there and I'm not making a prediction. The thought just crossed my mind, and I thought it was interesting.

Awesome-O
February 15th, 2009, 07:31 AM
that's what usually happens. Poeple forget. In the ancient Greece, people knew the Earth was round and in the middle ages, peeple believed the Earth is flat.


Cylons on Earth simply forgot how to use the ressurection technology, because they simply didn't need it. That's what happened.

Good point. Just like how people forgot about the existence of the Mayan Pyramids, about the purpose of Stonehenge, and how the Egyptian pyramids were built.

anotherquestion
February 15th, 2009, 07:55 AM
that's what usually happens. Poeple forget. In the ancient Greece, people knew the Earth was round and in the middle ages, peeple believed the Earth is flat.


Cylons on Earth simply forgot how to use the ressurection technology, because they simply didn't need it. That's what happened.
I think there is something primal about wanting to live forever that would make forgetting resurrection technology very unlikely, once you possessed the knowledge, although immortality may lead to an ennui that literally bores one to death.

In ancient times people with the knowledge of the earth's rotundity could not apply it to "life or death" situations, so, sure, it would take some effort to retain the knowledge. But if one could be a warrior with impunity, given resurrection as a way out, or actually start an effort that would take several lifetimes to fulfill--this would have had many practical advantages that would not so easily be discarded. Or maybe my read of human/cylon nature is skewed.

Bruman
February 15th, 2009, 07:56 AM
So on earth, everyone was a Cylon. Maybe this is because Ellen and the FF designed the skinjobs to look like humans, and they used themselves as a blueprint. If there are small genetic differences between the Earth humans and the Colonials, this would show up in making Earth humans resemble Skinjobs more than Colonials.

As for a Cylon detector, it's a tough call. Baltar's detector actually did work for SS types... it detected Boomer, but Baltar hid the result. Of course it might not have detected any of the Final Five, if they're different enough. Or maybe none of the FF were ever actually tested?

There are two other possibilities - maybe the Cylons know how to detect themselves from humans. Difficult to see why they'd need to, unless they were interested in trying to detect the final five. The other idea is that while Baltar was living among the Cylons, he figured out some of the differences and how to detect them better.

I don't think we'll ever know the real answer here, but just some options that might fit.

Awesome-O
February 15th, 2009, 08:12 AM
Baltar's detector actually did work for SS types... it detected Boomer, but Baltar hid the result.

That seems like so long ago, doesn't it? I forgot about that as well as the fact that Baltar gave the Cylons a nuclear bomb.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 08:49 AM
I'm sorry. I couldn't get anything more than you.

Here's what I wrote down:

Anders:
"Among bright stars, I'm lost, and all the forgotten faces, all the forgotten children, we seek the great forgotten language.

...the colony never forgets. The mind is it's own place.
...the hell. The hell of heaven. He whose guile, stirred with revenge and anger, deceived the mother of mankind. And all the forgotten faces, we seek...

We've been to that beach too. Yes, we've been to that beach. Sometimes Ellen would be there too, 'cause she loved the water. She loved the water.

gravityStar
February 15th, 2009, 08:51 AM
On Cavil

I think he has what is called a Conniving, Narcissistic, Egotistical, Hedonistic, Volatile and a Genocidal streak that is going to create one hell of a Series Finale.
Oh, I have another one for that list: self-loathing

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Ok, so my math ain't so good, but don't 7 plus 5 add up to 12?

The opening sequence of the show has always told us that there are only 12 models.

We already had the seven:

01. Cavil
02. Leoben Conoy
03. D'Anna
04. Doctor Simon
05. Aaron Doral
06. Caprica 6/Gina/Natalie
07. (1 of final 5)
08. Sharon Valeri/Agathon
09. (2 of final 5)
10. (3 of final 5)
11. (4 of final 5)
12. (5 of final 5)

and then the final five are:

1. Galan Tyrol
2. Saul Tigh
3. Tory Foster
4. Samuel T. Anders
5. Ellen Tigh

Now they're talking about a boxed number 7 like that slot wasn't already filled.

Apparently there ARE more than 12 models, it's just that there are only 12 ACTIVE models.

Well, I was right in my guess that the Colonial Cylons didn't invent resurrection tech and that the Earth Cylons had traveled to Colonial Cylon occupied space on a sub-light speed space ship.

So, Brother "John" Cavil is a certified motherfrakker. I didn't see that coming. It seems that he is the root of all recent Cylon evil as well. You just had to figure it'd be the preacher.

I think your getting things mixed up. Hopefully this will clarify.

Before this episode, we knew there were 12 Models- AS Told in the Miniseries and Shown up until now.
1. Brother "John" Cavil- Model 1
2. Leoben Conroy- Model 2
3. D'Anna Beers- Model 3
4. Simon - Model 4
5. Aaron Doral- Model 5
6. Six/Gina/Natalie- Model 6
7. Sharon Valeri/Agathon- Model 8
Final Five- Actually the First 5 if you look at it!
8. Galen Tyrol
9. Troy Foster
10. Saul Tigh
11. Samuel Anders
12. Ellen Tigh

The Last 5 (#8-12) reached the 12 colonies and realized all this happened again. They made a deal with the Centurions that were at War with the 12 Colonies: Stop the War and we'll make you your own Human Cylons. The first model they created was Cavil. Then I'm Assuming models 2-6, then they created Daniel, Which WAS SUPPOSE to be Model 7, but Cavil made it possible to not create any clones by contaminating some kinda fluid that creates copies and permanently boxed/erased him making it seem like that model NEVER existed to the others so there SHOULD have been 13. There IS ONLY 12 Cylon Models and that's how it should remain like it always been.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 09:02 AM
What else did Anders say?

Galen Tyrol: "So Cavil was the first one we made?"

Anders: "John. We treasured him. He helped us build the others.
....Cavil rejected mercy. He had a twisted idea of morality, so he turned on the five of us. He trapped us in a ...thing...a pocket...a compartment. Then he took the O2 offline.

Tigh: "He suffocated us. He killed us!"

Anders: "Yeah"

Tory: "So when we downloaded into new bodies?"

Anders: "He blocked our access to our books, NO, our memories."

Tyrol: "and implanted us with false ones..."

Anders: "Yes."

Tyrol: "...set us up like a Boomer, memories that we thought were real.

Anders: "I guess he boxed us for awhile. Intoduced Saul first, not long after the war, and then the Gazelle, the, the, Ellen an-and back on Earth, the warning signs that we got? I saw a woman. Tory, you saw a man. Funny! No one, no one else could see them. Galen, you thought you had a chip in your head."

Kara: "Listen to me. The seven. Tell me please.

Anders: "Yes, seven, seven, seven was the Daniel!

Kara: "You sure about the word, Daniel?"

Anders: "Yes, he died. Daniel died. He was seven. I'm sure. He's Daniel. I'm sure. NO WAIT! Saul, Saul, stay with the fleet. It's all starting to happen. It's the miracle. Right here. It's a gift from the angels. Stay with the fleet!"

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 09:38 AM
I think your getting things mixed up. Hopefully this will clarify.



No, I'm not getting things mixed up. I listed them by model # as far as possible.

My point is that, if "Daniel" was the #7, then there have been created a total of 13 models, but the #7 was apparently destroyed beyond recovery.

Some viewers are speculating that Kara is an altered version of Daniel, but that can't be unless you allow for 13 models.

Ellen said that Daniel was artistic and confessed to, perhaps, being closer to Daniel than to the first-born--John and that this made John jealous.

Here's the new list:
01. Cavil
02. Leoben Conoy
03. D'Anna
04. Doctor Simon
05. Aaron Doral
06. Caprica 6/Gina/Natalie
07. Daniel (destroyed by Cavil)
08. Sharon Valeri/Agathon

Since the Final Five are actually the creators of Models 1 through 8, they don't have Model #'s.
09. (1 of final 5) Ellen Tigh
10. (2 of final 5) Saul Tigh
11. (3 of final 5) Galen Tyrol
12. (4 of final 5) Samuel Anders
13. (5 of final 5) Tory Foster

SoulReaver
February 15th, 2009, 09:51 AM
lol

sleep deprivation can literally drive you crazy

whether thinks he needs it or not, cavil not sleeping for decades could be why he's so bugnuts about being in a human body, etc.since the humanoid cylons (or cylon humans) are apparently genetically upgraded (stronger faster & more resistant to disease) it's not a stretch to think they might not need sleep (don't some militaries already have an experimental drug that allows to dispense with sleep for a while ?) it's not like they can do away with "more basic" human needs like eating. they're not borg drones


anyway it's surprising no one's mentioned Duala yet :tealcanime49: when she was on the planet surface she saw something which (apparently) was the reason for putting a bullet in her own noggin. and yet even when about to pull the trigger she didn't really give the impression of having lost her "will to live". not saying this has anything to do with the missing 7 part (ok maybe I am -), just raising another point to ponder. surely this couldn't have been the end of her in the storyline

P-90_177
February 15th, 2009, 10:34 AM
since the humanoid cylons (or cylon humans) are apparently genetically upgraded (stronger faster & more resistant to disease) it's not a stretch to think they might not need sleep (don't some militaries already have an experimental drug that allows to dispense with sleep for a while ?) it's not like they can do away with "more basic" human needs like eating. they're not borg drones


anyway it's surprising no one's mentioned Duala yet :tealcanime49: when she was on the planet surface she saw something which (apparently) was the reason for putting a bullet in her own noggin. and yet even when about to pull the trigger she didn't really give the impression of having lost her "will to live". not saying this has anything to do with the missing 7 part (ok maybe I am -), just raising another point to ponder. surely this couldn't have been the end of her in the storyline

No that's really the end of Dee from what I can guess. What she saw in the sand were some jacks (you know that childrens game where you throw the ball in the air and you have to pick up the jacks before the ball can bounce again?) then she sort of just slipped into a depression about seeing earth the way it was and like everone else saw no hope left. so She resigned herself to die.....well.......happily........hence why she had just one more day of perfect happiness before killing herself.

Skydiver
February 15th, 2009, 10:51 AM
whos' the 'gazelle'?

Mamid
February 15th, 2009, 11:02 AM
Gazelle is Anders misspeaking Ellen and I'm pretty sure Daniel is a misspoken Kara.

Berg417448
February 15th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Gazelle is Anders misspeaking Ellen and I'm pretty sure Daniel is a misspoken Kara.


Didn't Ellen also say the name Daniel when talking to Cavil?
Would Ellen also mis-speak the name?

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 11:58 AM
im under the impression it takes a FF (Tigh) to mate with a SS (Six) to get pregnant. Maybe thats what would be needed to allow the 7 to get/to get someone pregnant.

I'm Thinking This:
The 4 Males: Cavil, Leoben, Simon and Doral Could get Ellen or Tory Pregnant and the 3 Females: Six, Sharon, D'Anna can have a child by Tigh, Tyrol and Anders.

Like having a Mixed Heritage Child: Black/White, Hispanic/Black ect...

Well, lets just start breeding them like dogs.

(or maybe let nature take its course. The Earth-Cylons eventually began procreating on their own. As they say "Nature always finds a way."

beale947
February 15th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Well anders does say "He died, Daniel died, she was seven..."

I listened to that part at a really high volume (deafing almost :p) and he does say she...

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 12:06 PM
How do we fit Kara being the harbinger of doom into this?

She's the harbinger of death not doom. She's described also as the herald of the apocalypse and will lead them to their death.

I believe strongly that this metaphorical as 'death' can be many things not related to the end of physical life. It could be the death of philosophical viewpoint.

anotherquestion
February 15th, 2009, 12:07 PM
More plot "payoffs" in this episode than any in memory.

Nevertheless, I think some things has been lost in all the exposition.

One thing is the fact that the significant seven Cylons, created by Ellen and the other Final Five, are "multiples"--entire lines of Cylons. Each model in each line is able to access memories of others in the line that have undergone resurrection. This is one reason why the entire line of 6's were boxed (they could tap into the identity of the Final Five).

There are implications from this fact. Since the Cavil model that fracked Ellen was downloaded after the ambush that went awry on Caprica, his knowledge should be available to all the other Cavils, presumably including the the knowledge of the identity of the Final Five, and the fact that they are the "parents" of the skinjobs.

The ongoing duplicity of this entire line is remarkable in itself, particularly since individuals in other lines (Caprica 6, Boomer, and the Deanna model herself) have shown a "maverick" sense of individuality that has undone any semblance of a unified Cylon "plan" (it is no longer a mantra at the beginning of each episode as it had been for the first three seasons).

The John individual in the Cavil line apparently has expressed his dominant individuality in very direct ways which are very unusual for a "child" of the Final Five. He "killed" his parents, the FF, by smothering them together, knowing he would be able to exert total control upon their resurrection. Upon this, their second (at least) round of resurrection, John somehow managed to wipe their memories and dribbled them out among the rest of humanity--Tigh and Ellen first (since they are now the oldest and have a history dating back to shortly after the first Cylon war); then, presumably much later, Tory, Anders and Galen.

What happened to those three members of the Final Five in the intervening years ? Were they, in effect, boxed until the time was right ?

Whenever we see an individual resurrected today, they are always the same age as when they most recently "expired". In flashbacks however, we have seen a much younger Tigh (with a full head of hair) when he first met Adama. Therefore Tigh must have been resurrected to a younger body, which is something we have not seen before, and calls out for more explanation.

I think the fact that there are multiple copies of each of the "significant seven" Cylons that are each capable of independent thought and action has been an underdeveloped aspect of the BSG universe.

A big reason for this, and this has been a longstanding complaint of mine, is the lack of a workable way to name each individual in a model line. We tend to think of each number 1 model as a "Cavil" (or, now, perhaps as a "John"). The others we think of as Leoban, Doral, Simon, Deanna, or Caprica 6's. In other words, we know each line by the model that we've seen interact with the fleet. For normal humans, each individual has a more or less unique appearance, but we still find the need to have individual names, even among twins or 'tuplets. How much more necessary it would seem to be, to have unique names among identical models of the same line. Nevertheless we, the viewers, tend to lump all members of the line together in ways associated with common character traits- 6's are all seductive and aggressive (like Caprica), 3's show dominant tendencies and tend to think "out of the box" (pun intended), 8's are erratic and emotionally unpredictable (like Boomer).

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 12:13 PM
Ok, so my math ain't so good, but don't 7 plus 5 add up to 12?

The opening sequence of the show has always told us that there are only 12 models.

We already had the seven:

01. Cavil
02. Leoben Conoy
03. D'Anna
04. Doctor Simon
05. Aaron Doral
06. Caprica 6/Gina/Natalie
07. 'Daniel'
08. Sharon Valeri/Agathon


RDM has stated that the Final Five do not have model numbers and are different from the others. So the statement that there are 'Twelve Models' cannot be taken that there are twelve model numbers.

In the new opening, the statement that Eleven are known and one sacrificed includes Ellen as one of the Eleven as the Number Seven is not technically known.

tricky
February 15th, 2009, 12:16 PM
Thanks Fwupow for putting the whole word salad of Anders up for us; I thought that he told Saul to stay with the fleet. I hope the FF listen.
I just think it's weird that the Centurions came up with a monotheistic benevolent god. I guess that's before the inhibitor chips.
So, was 'John' the same Cavil that seduced Ellen on New Caprica? I'm thinking that 'John' probably lives on a special basestar, and maybe all the Cavil's report to him.

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 12:16 PM
that's what usually happens. Poeple forget. In the ancient Greece, people knew the Earth was round and in the middle ages, peeple believed the Earth is flat.


Cylons on Earth simply forgot how to use the ressurection technology, because they simply didn't need it. That's what happened.

I can't agree with that statement as is. I would rather think that it was more discarded as they no longer needed it. We ourselves have pretty much lost the art of beelining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeline) and the art of building pyramids.

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 12:31 PM
There's been a whole lot of forgetting going on to make these threads of plot come together. The Final Five forgot who they were and what they did. The Significant Seven forgot their "parents" and the missing model 7. The 13th Colony on Earth forgot FTL travel and resurrection technology. The centurions forgot how to talk. Admiral Adama forgot the treachery of the Cylons and made a new alliance with them. You can only blame Cavil for some of this forgetting, he hasn't been around long enough, in theory, to be responsible for a lot of it. There are still a lot of loose ends to tie up.


I don't think the Significant Seven necessarily forgot anything. I'm thinking that they didn't know about it in the first place. Although each model had a prototype, and this model's memories can be downloaded to more than one body (just as a model 8 downloaded Boomer's memories, surprising and repulsing Helo), we can also assume that there are 'new' versions of each model. We've seen the Sixes have quite different personalities - perhaps this wouldn't be the case if they all had shared memories.

John certainly seems to be different to Cavil. I don't think they are the same Cylon, though they may have many shared memories. Cavil is more juvenile, John is more angry and bitter. Boomer was with John, but again we don't know how many copies of each one there are - there could be a copy of Boomer for each Cavil for all we know, not just any old model 8.

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 12:47 PM
Cause I'm a BSG Geek with nothing to do at work at nights, ive rewatched the beginning part a few times when Sam is speaking during Doc Cottle's Operation. Here's what I heard

" ***** the hell, the Hell of Heaven. He who is Guile, stirred with revenge and anger, Decieved the Mother and Mandkind and all the Forgotten Faces. We Seek..." (Anders had that reflex which stopped the rest of line)
Again Starbuck and Cottle were speaking in the beginning where ***** was and i did not hear that he said before "hell"


He was definitely talking like a hybrid, and we know they 'see' things. So, John is Guile, Ellen is the Mother and the Forgotten Faces... either the Final Four or the Lords of Kobol.

jbreaken
February 15th, 2009, 12:52 PM
I think Ellen crying at the beginning was kind of funny...

What's crazy is that we got all this info, but there's even more to learn that happened way before that. Like why did the cylons go to earth and the humans went to the other 12 colonies?

Who nuked Earth, by the way? I've watched the episode 3 times and my head's about to explode. And where did they resurrect if it wasn't on Earth???

And how is Ellen resurrected at that age, if they said that Saul grew up with Adama? I was wondering if they could be resurrected at different ages.

So someone resurrected Starbuck, and gave her the same ship with a signal to earth and sent her back to Galactica. WTF?

The women are such forces on this show! Gotta love Ellen... and I wanted more Roslin, especially after her performance last week, and I'm sad that Deanna just gave up. She rocked.

And, what if one Daniel got away, like Ellen saved him. And Gaius is Daniel. I think there's a reason that we haven't been seeing much of him lately, cuz something big is gonna happen.

Moore said that in the future Six and her baby's plotline is going to expand or something like that, and he said it would be sad.

I think she's gonna miscarry, and that's why when the opera house does happen, she's stealing Hera.

SoulReaver
February 15th, 2009, 12:52 PM
No that's really the end of Dee from what I can guess. What she saw in the sand were some jacks (you know that childrens game where you throw the ball in the air and you have to pick up the jacks before the ball can bounce again?) then she sort of just slipped into a depression about seeing earth the way it was and like everone else saw no hope left. so She resigned herself to die.....well.......happily........hence why she had just one more day of perfect happiness before killing herself.disappointing if that's the case. I'm hoping there's more to it than that

SoulReaver
February 15th, 2009, 12:53 PM
A big reason for this, and this has been a longstanding complaint of mine, is the lack of a workable way to name each individual in a model line. We tend to think of each number 1 model as a "Cavil" (or, now, perhaps as a "John"). The others we think of as Leoban, Doral, Simon, Deanna, or Caprica 6's. In other words, we know each line by the model that we've seen interact with the fleet. For normal humans, each individual has a more or less unique appearance, but we still find the need to have individual names, even among twins or 'tuplets. How much more necessary it would seem to be, to have unique names among identical models of the same line. Nevertheless we, the viewers, tend to lump all members of the line together in ways associated with common character traits- 6's are all seductive and aggressive (like Caprica), 3's show dominant tendencies and tend to think "out of the box" (pun intended), 8's are erratic and emotionally unpredictable (like Boomer).cylons can sense each other's presence & can tell between their clones (even human/cylon hybrids are capable of this) so maybe they've a way of identifying each other without the use of "vocal names"

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 12:56 PM
So on earth, everyone was a Cylon. Maybe this is because Ellen and the FF designed the skinjobs to look like humans, and they used themselves as a blueprint. If there are small genetic differences between the Earth humans and the Colonials, this would show up in making Earth humans resemble Skinjobs more than Colonials.

As for a Cylon detector, it's a tough call. Baltar's detector actually did work for SS types... it detected Boomer, but Baltar hid the result. Of course it might not have detected any of the Final Five, if they're different enough. Or maybe none of the FF were ever actually tested?

There are two other possibilities - maybe the Cylons know how to detect themselves from humans. Difficult to see why they'd need to, unless they were interested in trying to detect the final five. The other idea is that while Baltar was living among the Cylons, he figured out some of the differences and how to detect them better.

I don't think we'll ever know the real answer here, but just some options that might fit.


Ellen was tested, but Baltar never told the result. We don't know if his detector showed her to be Cylon or not, and although it detected Boomer, we don't know it works for the FF.

The Significant Seven can't detect Final Five, otherwise the FF would have been found sooner. And the SS don't need to be able to detect SS, because they know what they look like.

Transwarp
February 15th, 2009, 01:00 PM
that's what usually happens. People forget. In the ancient Greece, people knew the Earth was round and in the middle ages, People believed the Earth is flat.


Cylons on Earth simply forgot how to use the resurrection technology, because they simply didn't need it. That's what happened.

I just wanted to point out that educated people in the middle ages knew the Earth was round. The reason Columbus couldn't get funding was because his numbers were about 1/3 what everyone else knew to be correct (thus running out of supplies so long before he would have gotten to China). It's like if someone today wanted to build a rocket to get to space, and when their potential investors looked into it, they had gravity getting weaker twice as fast, or another mistake that would doom the project. Sending a probe to another star might be a better example: something where we have the math and the science for potential approaches, but none of them have feasible engineering solutions yet. But if you do the calculations wrong, it can look doable.

I know you didn't say that everybody thought Earth was flat, but my point is that general knowledge tends to stick around. Plumbing might be a better comparison for resurrection, as an actual application of knowledge. The thirteenth tribe probably still had all the underlying science (at least in archives) but it took this team of 5 motivated researchers to re-derive the engineering, or figure out what everything in the old blueprints did. Now, this doesn't apply so much to the 12 colonies because they purposefully lost all their knowledge, except whatever actual information was in the sacred scrolls and survived 2000(?) years of transcriptions. We've seen the doctor reference medical information from Kobol, though, so it seems some things did make it. I'd bet that for the same reason humans kept medical records, the cylons kept whatever "manuals" and blueprints they had on themselves, which at the time would have included resurrection.

Also, how long ago did the 12 colonies leave Kobol? I thought the cataclysm on Kobol happened 2000 years ago, and the one on Earth seems to have been between 3000 and 2000 years ago, depending on the episode. It seems that Earth fell first, then Kobol, then the colonies. Without knowing what exactly happened on Earth or if there were survivors, does anyone else think the destruction of Earth and the exodus from Kobol might be related? Or are the writers just coming up with big-sounding numbers as they write the scripts? :p

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 01:03 PM
No, I'm not getting things mixed up. I listed them by model # as far as possible.

My point is that, if "Daniel" was the #7, then there have been created a total of 13 models, but the #7 was apparently destroyed beyond recovery.


The quote is "there are 12 cylon models". There are only 12 - there were 13 models, until one model was destroyed. 13 - 1 = 12.

Skydiver
February 15th, 2009, 01:20 PM
just because kara's the harbringer of death....doesn't necessarily mean that it's the HUMANS she's bringing death to...she could be the harbringer of cylon extinction

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 01:21 PM
And how is Ellen resurrected at that age, if they said that Saul grew up with Adama? I was wondering if they could be resurrected at different ages.



We can assume that the bodies are built in batches. Ellen's 'batch' would have been made all at once and all age at the same rate. So when she died, she resurrected into a body the same age as the one she left.

The bodies are built at a certain age, or are grown from fetuses and rapidly aged to adulthood. Tigh's body was resurrected at a younger state of development than when he died. This would be like resurrecting into a different, younger batch of bodies. The Cylons would do this, because what's the point of immortality if you're just going to keep aging, LOL. Also, they would need to create new batches of bodies to keep up their immortality.

For all we know, when the FF resurrected above Earth, their bodies were all the same age - in fact, this seems likely since the bodies were probably grown at the same time and had undergone the same amount of aging. Unless they are built at a specific age...

omega431
February 15th, 2009, 01:57 PM
Ehh, not a fan of heavy exposition but I suppose it was necessary. What really sold me were Cavil's tirades.

He may be evil, but I don't see him as crazy. I'd be a little pissed if I were in his position. To have been a god but limited because of someone else's superstition... From his POV it'd be like a mother taking a sledgehammer to a child's spine because she thought paraplegia was good and proper.

Yeah that doesn't really hold up as an analogy. First off this was what the cylons wanted. They desired and were working towards biological machines. If John Cavil wanted to hear x-rays & smell dark matter why wasn't he a hybrid? That seems to be how they exist.
He was the first but I wonder how they bargained with the centurions in the first place & defined their wants/needs for the new model cylons. Also what happened to the old centurions that they ended up with a limiter in their heads when they upgraded.

Also it just makes sense you can have immortality or you can procreate. You can't really have both from a practical standpoint. Also there would be problems because all these children wouldn't be able to resurect(at least not without a lot of overhead).

The head characters are the lords of kobol, who have been providing intervention. We still don't know(I don't think) what happened to cause a falling out between humans & LoK. Maybe the creation of the machine slaves.
With the bio cylons were do you draw the line between cylons & humans, both are biological machines. It's never been clear what it is really inside the cylons besides the biological, they seem to be normal other than a fiber hookup in their arms. Clearly nothing that is obvious to an X-Ray scan. Not that I think this is a significant question to answer, that's kind of the point. I'm just saying.

omega431
February 15th, 2009, 02:14 PM
What did ellen mean when she said "you should have brought a tambrall?" sp?

tambrel was a cart used to carry the condemd prisoner to be executed.

the missing 7
February 15th, 2009, 02:18 PM
just because kara's the harbringer of death....doesn't necessarily mean that it's the HUMANS she's bringing death to...she could be the harbringer of cylon extinction

or death in general

"the oath" anyone

Blackened
February 15th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned but does anyone else think that Daniel is Starbucks father? They said her father was "an artist, he was so sensitive to the world". Starbuck's father was a fantastic musician... and "he was so sensitive to the world" implies he is capable of love, love for a human woman meaning they could have procreated? It would also explain why her mother acts the way she did to her daughter.

This probably has been brought up in a previous post but the topic is so long, I thought I'd just throw it out there anyway.

EDIT: Ah I see it has been mentioned in previous posts. Either way, I believe it is a valid assumption to make. Maybe Daniel still exists one way or another, allowing people to see certain things (head six, D'annas sight of the final five, Kara's various visions).

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 03:16 PM
tambrel was a cart used to carry the condemd prisoner to be executed.

Great info and I guess a "tumbrel" is the same thing?

Ellen did say "tumbrel", which according to Dictionary dot com is:

1. one of the carts used during the French Revolution to convey victims to the guillotine.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 03:17 PM
More information from Anders:

Anders: "We all worked in the same research facility. You (looks at Tigh) and Ellen, you were married then too. You two (looks at Galen & Tory) lived together."

Tyrol: "What, like room-mates?"

Anders: No, you were madly in love. You were planning on getting married.

Tigh: When the nukes hit, I pulled Ellen out of the rubble. She said we'd be reborn. Does that mean we downloaded somewhere?

Anders: Yeah, on a ship that we placed in orbit around the planet.

Tyrol: So, we knew the end was coming.

Anders: We'd been warned, yeah.

Tory: We downloaded?

Anders: Yeah

Tory: but the Cylons on Earth could have children, so why did we even have that technology?

Tyrol: probably invented resurrection.

Anders: ...we didn't invent resurrection, OK. We re-invented it. Organic memory transfer came from Kobol along with the 13th tribe, but fell out of use after our people started to procreate. We worked night and day to rebuild it. Galen, your work was amazing, but it was Ellen, it was Ellen who made the intuitive leap that brought the system back online and she...

LATER:

Tigh: So why did we go to the 12 colonies?

Anders: We needed to find the other tribes and warn them. We knew that they would continue to create artificial life. We needed to tell them...treat them well and keep them close, but by the time we got to the colonies, they were already at war with the Centurians. It happened again!

Tory: but the holocaust on Earth took place thousands of years before that. How is that possible?

Anders: We hadn't developed jump drives. We traveled at relativistic but subluminal speed. Time slowed down for us, but thousands of years passed on the...

...the Centurians were already trying to make flesh bodies. They had created hybrids, but nothing that lived on it's own, so we made them a deal--"you stop the war and we'll help you". We developed the eight humanoid models and we gave them resurrection.

Kara: Eight! You said eight. We're missing someone.

Anders: Whoa. Oh wow. Everybody's glowing.

omega431
February 15th, 2009, 03:25 PM
Great info and I guess a "tumbrel" is the same thing?

Ellen did say "tumbrel", which according to Dictionary dot com is:

1. one of the carts used during the French Revolution to convey victims to the guillotine.

Yeah misstyped. Think it was like a stockade on wheels, not sure though.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 03:29 PM
This episode is so full of information, you really have to go over it several times to glean the full extent of it.

Anders said that Ellen was instrumental in getting the resurrection system "back online". This would seem to indicate that the 13th tribe had this technology upon arrival to earth. This would explain why they were able to travel so much further from Kobol than the other 12 tribes. They kept resurrecting during the some 1000 years that it took to reach the Algae Planet and the additional 1000 years to reach Earth.

If the 12 tribes left Kobol at the same time as the 13th, then they must not have had FTL capability either. They must have invented it some time later.

So, none of the tribes had Jump Drives upon leaving Kobol, but the 13th tribe did have resurrection tech. It's looking more and more like I suspected. It's the issue of resurrection that divided the 12 tribes from the 13th. It seems that the 12 tribes must have had some sort of religious objection to permitting resurrection or something.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 03:41 PM
More information from Cavil/John & Ellen:

[Cavil is showing some pictures of the Algae Planet supernova and the Temple-of-the-Five.]

Ellen: Aaaah. I always did love a good slide-show. Vacation snaps?

Cavil: You know what it is?

Ellen: The Temple of Hopes, built by the 13th tribe 3000 years ago when they left Kobol. They stopped and prayed for guidance during their exodus and then God showed them the way to Earth.

Cavil: and now it's a monument to your vanity. The Temple-of-the-Five. Nice touch--the exploding star! When the star went nova, one of your children saw your faces--one of the threes--the one who called herself D'Anna. So I just boxed her entire line.

Ellen: Boxing isn't permanent, not like number Seven, you can undo it.

Cavil: It's not likely. By planting that carnival trick to reveal your own faces, you left me no choice.

Ellen: We didn't plant anything. We backtracked the path of our ancesters, found their temple. The One-True-God must have orchestrated these events.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 04:00 PM
FACTS:

[If you watch the episode and then watch it several times more, you'll agree!]

1. The Number Seven model of Cylon was named "Daniel".

2. Daniel was male.

3. Daniel is dead.

4. Daniel's genetic info was corrupted beyond salvage by Brother Cavil / John.

5. Kara Thrace is not a Cylon because there are ONLY 12 models and they are ALL accounted for.

6. The so-called Final Five are actually the First Five, who not only pre-existed the Significant Seven but, in fact created them.

7. Resurrection capability ("organic memory transfer") came from Kobol with the 13th tribe.

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 04:07 PM
And, what if one Daniel got away, like Ellen saved him. And Gaius is Daniel. I think there's a reason that we haven't been seeing much of him lately, cuz something big is gonna happen.


I believe this to be likely. We know he's quite sensitive like Daniel was. I also think he will be the Cylon god, as he is basically Jesus and Jesus was also god (somehow, don't ask me how that works). But it would mean that the skinjobs aren't all sharing early memories from their prototypes. If Cavil had John's memories of Daniel, he would have surely had Gaius killed on New Caprica.

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 04:54 PM
If the 12 tribes left Kobol at the same time as the 13th, then they must not have had FTL capability either. They must have invented it some time later.

I read somewhere that the 13th tribe departed Kobol around 4,000 years prior to the Cylon Holocaust of the Colonies. The other 12 departed 2,000 before the event. This suggests that the holocaust on Earth occurred in the same general time frame as the departure from Kobol.

Lightbane
February 15th, 2009, 04:57 PM
One of the things I remembered after watching this episode is

RAZOR - Mini-episodes that are on the DVD disk

At the end of the first war Adama crashed on the ice planet where a cylon lab was. The Colonials were having a massive fight over the planet. Adama searches through the facility and finds a room with people in it. the door is sealed its a compartment.

There is a hissing sound then the people inside die, I would say that they are the final five. The cylons ended the war after they got what they wanted and then Cavil killed them

entil2001
February 15th, 2009, 04:58 PM
Sooner or later, the writers were going to have to buckle down and make sense out of the Cylons. It’s something that should have been done much earlier in the series, to be honest, but the explanation includes a certain rationale for why this was not done. Some will come to the conclusion that the writers had much of this in mind all along, but Ron Moore and the rest of the gang have never hidden the fact that they were making up a lot of it as they were going along.

The result is an explanation that somehow manages to work far better than it has any right to do so. By all rights, there should be numerous continuity violations throughout the tale. Somehow, only one major question threatens to tear the explanation apart, and even that could be reconciled with a little more willing suspension of disbelief. Unlike some shows that are practically ruined by the failure of the writers to bring it all together at the end (like, for instance, “Alias”), this cements “Battlestar Galactica” as a triumph.

Essentially, the story fits together as predicted, just with specifics where the vague hand-waving would have been. Back on Kobol, thousands of years ago, Humans created artificial life, against the warnings and prohibitions of their gods. Initially there were centurions, but eventually there were the “skinjobs”. These Cylons rebelled, and in the ensuing war, Kobol was destroyed. The Humans went on to create the 12 Colonies; the Cylons fled. (At this point, they also had the technology for resurrection.)

The Cylons ultimately wound up on the path that the ragtag fleet followed, from the algae planet to Earth. At some point, they gained the ability to procreate on their own. With the need to resurrect no longer present for survival, the technology was “lost” and the Cylons spent much time in peace.

However, as that peace was coming to an end (either through self-destruction or incursion), five of the Earth Cylons read the signs and portents and began research into “resurrection”. This enabled them to survive the holocaust on Earth. Their resurrection ship (either in orbit or at another colony) was the launching point of an effort by these “Final Five” to return to the Colonies and warn them not to create artificial life.

Unfortunately, the Final Five arrives too late, and the First Cylon War was already underway. The rebelling Centurions (the product of the events to be seen on “Caprica”) were attempting to create their own “skinjobs”, and were failing (as seen in “Razor”, for example). The Final Five convinced the Cylons to end the war by appealing to the Centurion notions of an all-loving God and their desire for evolution. With the knowledge of resurrection in hand, the Final Five were in the perfect position to lead these new Cylons towards eventual peace.

The first new “skinjob” was John Cavil, created by the Final Five (specifically Ellen). With Cavil’s help, seven more “models” were built. At some point in the process, however, Cavil came to disagree strongly with the notion of making the Cylons more like their oppressive creators, and sought to undermine the Final Five. At one point, this meant tampering with the replication process for the Sevens; no copies could be made, as the genetic template was destroyed. (This could have meant that the original Seven survived, however.)

Ultimately, Cavil betrayed the Final Five by killing them and tampering with the resurrection process, erasing their memories. The Final Five were reprogrammed with false memories of their lives as Colonials, and they were seeded into Colonial society. Since they were the evolved Cylons of Earth, they were just like Humans, right down to the ability to age over time. This was done shortly after the armistice (as marked by the first verifiable appearance of Saul Tigh).

In the roughly forty years that followed, Cavil concocted a plan for revenge against the Humans and the means to reproduce. He prohibited knowledge and discussion of the Final Five, and placed inhibitions on the free will of the centurions. Using the same means he used to “plant” the Final Five, Cavil sent copies of the new “skinjobs” into Colonial society to prepare for the destruction of the Human race. The plan, apparently, was to use the survivors in experiments designed to help the Cylons find a means to procreate (“The Farm”).

It’s not clear if the Cylons were determined to track down the ragtag fleet because they wanted to wipe out the last of the Human survivors, or because Cavil specifically wanted to eliminate the Final Five before they could find Earth and discover the truth. What does matter is that Cavil’s unbalanced psychology explains almost everything that the Cylons have done since the beginning. (And one would presume that the upcoming film “The Plan” will fill in some of the blanks.) Certainly the events on New Caprica are a lot more disturbing!

Whatever the case, this is precisely why the Colonials and the rebel Cylons must forge an alliance. Ellen has given Cavil a pressing reason to hunt down the fleet. Once this information gets out (and it will start to spread), the Adamas and Roslin will have a solid reason to exonerate the rebel Cylons. Cavil will become the mastermind behind the destruction of the Colonies.

This all makes a great deal of sense, especially since it fits the notion that this is a cycle that always seems to repeat itself, with only minor variations along the way. One could even speculate, based on the 13 known models of humaniform Cylons, that the Lords of Kobol were “skinjobs” from an even earlier cycle!

More importantly in terms of the current mysteries, this could explain Starbuck’s “special destiny”. Seven, the “artist”, might not have been destroyed. Instead, Cavil might have treated “Daniel” in the same way he treated the Final Five. Starbuck’s father was described as an artist as well, and if the only Seven turned out to be Kara’s father, it would explain why she was a little different and why she would have known, instinctively, about the mandala that was associated with the Final Five.

It would also explain her resurrection. If the current version of Cylon resurrection was encoded based on the knowledge of the Final Five, then it would have been based on the technology they used as the basis of their own resurrection thousands of years earlier. If Kara had the genetic markers of the current Cylons within her DNA, and if the original resurrection ship of the Final Five still existed, then it could have activated as a result.

That leaves a couple of mysteries still left to explain. First, how did Starbuck and her viper get from the maelstrom planet to Earth in the first place? That may never be answered. Second, exactly where was the resurrection ship of the Final Five? It couldn’t have been in orbit of Earth; the fleet would have detected it. One simple answer could be buried in the episode, where it is suggested that there was a colony where the resurrection ship/technology might have been kept. If this is the case, Ellen might hold the key to a new home for both Cylons and Humans.

And the fleet will need a new home. Galactica isn’t going to last forever, even with the Cylon technology helping to affect repairs. The entire season has been a slow and methodical process of bringing Cylon and Human together, and this is just another symbolic example. Roslin is unlikely to survive much longer, either. With the execution of the Quorum during the mutiny, Lee’s suggestion marks the passing of the old way of identifying with colonies of origin. (In a way, this is symbolized by the defeat of Zarek’s revolution, which was at least partially built around old Colonial rivalries.)

While most of the information fits, one major question stands out: the matter of Saul Tigh. The rest of the Final Five could have easily been introduced to Colonial society in the wake of the First Cylon War. But Tigh was supposed to have been a decorated officer during that war, which doesn’t fit at all. It works to the benefit of the writers that Adama didn’t know Tigh until after the war, and Tigh’s recollection of the war could have been implanted memories. The only problem is that Tigh’s military career, specifically his decorated past, would have been reviewed at some point.

If Cavil was able to pull off everything else, then it was possible for him to slip falsified information into Colonial records. Considering how much else Cavil was supposed to have done, I suppose it’s just one more thing to add to the list. But since we know that the Cylon backstory was conceived after the fact, Tigh’s war record is the kind of thing that stands out as a reminder. All things being equal, it’s less satisfying when the final revelations require some massaging.

The other drawback to this episode is the sheer amount of exposition. The writers pull out a few simple techniques to keep up some tension and prevent the episode from becoming the fictional equivalent of a college lecture. It does work, but the bottom line is that this is a textbook violation of the “show, don’t tell” principle. I’m not sure, given the time constraints, that it could have been avoided; further detail was even shunted into “The Plan”, after all.

It cannot be denied, however, that this episode was an instant brain-frack for devoted fans, especially those who have been wanting some explanation for the Cylons and their actions since the very beginning. It’s clearly meant to set the stage for the remainder of the series, and it even clarifies “Caprica” to a certain extent. There’s not much more that fans could ask for at this point.


John Keegan
Reprinted with permission
Original source: c. Critical Myth, 2009
All rights reserved
Link: http://www.criticalmyth.com

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Is Anders dead?

There are clues in the show that indicate that he's not.

1. Anders sees a yellowish glow all around them and says "Oh wow! Everybody's glowing!"
2. Later "the brain guy" remarks that Ander's brain scan image is "remarkably clear".

These clues give reason to suspect that Ander's brain was scanned when he saw everybody glowing and that his consciousness was uploaded by something or someone--perhaps The-One-True-God.

Anders' comments that the warnings of the impending holocaust on Earth 2000 years ago came by way of imaginary / virtual persons that he and the rest of the five were seeing. This sounds just like what Baltar has been experiencing since the Cylon attack on Caprica.

Anders said that he saw a woman. I would not be surprised if it turns out that the woman Anders saw was a virtual version of Kara Thrace.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 05:20 PM
I read somewhere that the 13th tribe departed Kobol around 4,000 years prior to the Cylon Holocaust of the Colonies. The other 12 departed 2,000 before the event. This suggests that the holocaust on Earth occurred in the same general time frame as the departure from Kobol.

The "2000 year" figure comes from a Season 1 episode of BSG and the "4000 year" figure comes from the "Eye of Jupiter" episode, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, if you examine the full quotes side by side, you'll see that they contradict each-other. It seems that we should throw out the Season 1 info and purge "2000 years" out of our minds entirely.

In order to fully understand the timeline, you have to factor in the relativistic effects of near lightspeed travel and I'm gonna have hit the books for that one.

This might help or give you a headache.
http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 05:42 PM
One of the things I remembered after watching this episode is

RAZOR - Mini-episodes that are on the DVD disk

At the end of the first war Adama crashed on the ice planet where a cylon lab was. The Colonials were having a massive fight over the planet. Adama searches through the facility and finds a room with people in it. the door is sealed its a compartment.

There is a hissing sound then the people inside die, I would say that they are the final five. The cylons ended the war after they got what they wanted and then Cavil killed them

That would be a retcon. If you look at interviews with RDM, the full story of the Final Five wasn't that developed at that point.

HAL2100
February 15th, 2009, 05:48 PM
The "2000 year" figure comes from a Season 1 episode of BSG and the "4000 year" figure comes from the "Eye of Jupiter" episode, if I remember correctly. Anyhow, if you examine the full quotes side by side, you'll see that they contradict each-other. It seems that we should throw out the Season 1 info and purge "2000 years" out of our minds entirely.

In order to fully understand the timeline, you have to factor in the relativistic effects of near lightspeed travel and I'm gonna have hit the books for that one.

This might help or give you a headache.
http://www.thebigview.com/spacetime/timedilation.html

Elosha in the preview to 'Sometimes a Great Notion' states that the 13th left 3,600 years prior per Pythia. If it was all written/documented on Kobol, then the effects of lightspeed are a moot point as time is constant on a planet.

Lightbane
February 15th, 2009, 06:08 PM
Just throwing this out there, does anybody know if the 12 colonies were in seperate systems? Because to me having 12 Earth like planets in such a condensed area seems highly unlikely

Berg417448
February 15th, 2009, 06:10 PM
They are all supposed to be in the same system. Makes no sense to me but that is what has been stated in the past.

Lightbane
February 15th, 2009, 06:20 PM
I just don't think its possible our star system had 3 earth like planets but then the sun changed and two of them didn't develop.

But for a system to have 12 habitable planets its near impossible, they'd have to have had highly condensed orbitable rings and the optimal range from the star.

Berg417448
February 15th, 2009, 06:24 PM
RDM acknowledged that back in 2005:

"The mythology of the new Galactica is heavily influenced by that established in the original. I've always approached this project with an eye toward taking the original material and making it work in a new context. I still try to do this whenever possible. Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show. The mythology of the old show centered around Kobol and the thirteen "tribes of man," so I've kept it as the centerpiece of ours. Not every single element is the same and not every element is even intact, but the roots are there. The point was to make another version of Battlestar Galactica, not just use the name."

http://blogs.scifi.com/battlestar/archives/2005/01/#a000016

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Elosha in the preview to 'Sometimes a Great Notion' states that the 13th left 3,600 years prior per Pythia. If it was all written/documented on Kobol, then the effects of lightspeed are a moot point as time is constant on a planet.

3600 years ago was the time of the writing, not the events. That excerpt was from Season 1 episode 10 "The Hand of God".

Roslin: ... Who is Pythia?
Elosha: One of the oracles, in the sacred scrolls. 3,600 years ago, Pythia wrote about the exile and the rebirth of a human race. And the lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their new homeland and unto the leader they gave a vision of serpents, numbering two and ten, as a sign of things to come.
Roslin: Pythia wrote that?
Elosha: She also wrote that the leader suffered a wasting disease and would not live to enter the new land. But you're not dying... are you?

Here's some transcript quotes I left in another topic a few weeks back:


Season 1, ep12
Setting: Colonial One

Billy: Uh, well, we won't know for sure until they send a ground team but the initial estimates have it, uh, on the order of approximately 2,000 years.
Elosha: That's around the time the 13 tribes first left Kobol.

Note: No mention of an earlier exodus of 13th tribe and notice the word "first"!
===========================================================================

Season 3, ep11

Setting: Algae Planet: Temple of Five

Chief: Our initial radiocarbon dating suggests that the temple's at least 4,000 years old, which lines up with the exodus of the Thirteenth Tribe.
Roslin (over radio): Do you really think you've found the Temple of Five?
Chief: Yeah. I recognize it from the books in my father's study, Madame President. He was a priest, and the Temple of Five was an important part of our faith. Well, his faith anyways.
Roslin, from Adama’s quarters: Could this place be related to the Eye of Jupiter, Chief?
Chief: You got me, Madame President. All I know is the stuff I kinda remember from sneaking into my dad's study when he wasn't looking.
Adama: the Eye of Jupiter? What are we talking about?
Chief: According to the Scriptures, it's a marker that was left behind by the Thirteenth Tribe. It's supposed to point the way to Earth.
(Alarm blares.)
==========================================

The team led by Chief Tyrol used radiocarbon dating on the Algae Planet, which would have been specific to that planet.
The Colonial fleet and Cylons decided that Earth suffered a holocaust 2000 years ago, but I don't recall how they arrived at that date. If it was radiocarbon dating, then they are measuring Earth time. So we are trying to match Earth time up with Colonial time and I don't know how to do that.
I also don't know where I put my ibuprofen.

If the writers took the time dilation effects of space travel into account when tossing out these dates, I will have to bow down in shamefaced apology and revere them as superior beings.

Lightbane
February 15th, 2009, 06:40 PM
Well in the BSG Universe Earth is approx 4 light years from the colonies and Kobol approx 10 - 13 light months

It also depends on the defintion of what a "year" is year means how long it takes the planet to orbit the sun. Kobol will have a different year length from Earth, who knows maybe the length of time between the Kobol Catalysm and Earth one is maybe 500 years or less it all depends on the releative differences in the orbits.

The Colonials would be able to figure it out however because they'd have to have a way to convert the orbit cycles into a standard considering they did have 12 different orbit cycles to calculate

EDIT: Am I just imaging that they said that Kobol had trace levels of radiation?

Back40
February 15th, 2009, 06:52 PM
Ellen is not apologetic about making the skin jobs. They lack procreative abilities but possess free will. Well so did the Centurions before they were "dumbed down" by Cavil. Why surrender this ability ? Seems like a Faustian bargain was made by the Centurions with the Final Five.
Do we know the Centurions "surrendered" this ability? They may have been tricked or manipulated into it.





Why would the 13th tribe on Earth forsake immortality in the form of Resurrection technology ? Sure, given the ability to reproduce would lead to a tremendous population explosion, but not dying seems to be an ability not lightly surrendered. Ray Kurzweil writes about virtual immortality as an aspect of self-directed evolution in "The Age of Spiritual Machines" (http://www.amazon.com/Age-Spiritual-Machines-Computers-Intelligence/dp/0140282025) Seems like the "invisible hand" guiding all evolution is the propagation of exact copies of your DNA. Resurrection technology meets this end.


Caprica 6 answered this in the first half of Season 4, can't remember the episode, when she explained to the Quorum that that which we (humans) spend our lives agonizing over and avoiding - death - is in fact what gives life meaning. Sorry, can't think of the exact quote at the moment.





There's been a whole lot of forgetting going on to make these threads of plot come together. The Final Five forgot who they were and what they did. The Significant Seven forgot their "parents" and the missing model 7. The 13th Colony on Earth forgot FTL travel and resurrection technology. The centurions forgot how to talk. Admiral Adama forgot the treachery of the Cylons and made a new alliance with them. You can only blame Cavil for some of this forgetting, he hasn't been around long enough, in theory, to be responsible for a lot of it. There are still a lot of loose ends to tie up.



The Final Five didn't really "forget" who they were, their true memories were wiped by Cavil and they were given false memories as to who and what they were.

The memories of the Significant Seven were probably also altered by Cavil - he wouldn't want them remembering who the Five were, what their significance was, or anything about the "Daniel" model he'd terminated. In their case, it seems to just be an injunction against thinking about the Final Five.

See above response to the "dumbing down" comment.

I don't think Adama has forgotten the treachery of the Cylons, I think he's just desperate and doesn't know what to do anymore. He's run out of logical answers...actually, I think he's just run out of answers, period.

Back40
February 15th, 2009, 06:58 PM
One of the things I remembered after watching this episode is

RAZOR - Mini-episodes that are on the DVD disk

At the end of the first war Adama crashed on the ice planet where a cylon lab was. The Colonials were having a massive fight over the planet. Adama searches through the facility and finds a room with people in it. the door is sealed its a compartment.

There is a hissing sound then the people inside die, I would say that they are the final five. The cylons ended the war after they got what they wanted and then Cavil killed them

Adama also succeeds in partially opening the door, but it sticks, i.e. the compartment was NOT sealed. We don't know that the people in the compartment die, and if they did, it was not from asphyxiation as the door was partly open.

Lightbane
February 15th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Yeah but then Cavil would have just come back when he realised that they weren't downloading. Wouldn't that be such a newsflash if one of them recognized Adama for the raptor pilot he was back then

EDIT: Oh and another note on that, raiders resurrect so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for the tech to be adapted to a raptor if the resurrection engine had the design in its memory banks.

prattmic
February 15th, 2009, 07:15 PM
EDIT: Oh and another note on that, raiders resurrect so it wouldn't be much of a stretch for the tech to be adapted to a raptor if the resurrection engine had the design in its memory banks.

It is my understanding that Raiders are biological and partially sentient, thus they gain experience which is why they resurrect. Raptors are just computers that a human must control.

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 07:42 PM
tambrel was a cart used to carry the condemd prisoner to be executed.

ah! Thanks! Did not know that!

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 07:49 PM
One of the things I remembered after watching this episode is

RAZOR - Mini-episodes that are on the DVD disk

At the end of the first war Adama crashed on the ice planet where a cylon lab was. The Colonials were having a massive fight over the planet. Adama searches through the facility and finds a room with people in it. the door is sealed its a compartment.

There is a hissing sound then the people inside die, I would say that they are the final five. The cylons ended the war after they got what they wanted and then Cavil killed them

Oh good point! but i think this might not be so as the 5, when they camme to the 12 colonies and saw the cylons in war with humans, they agreed to make those centurions humanoid cylons if they ended the war and that was when they retreated so they might just have been colonists captured to be experimented on.

Back40
February 15th, 2009, 07:58 PM
Like why did the cylons go to earth and the humans went to the other 12 colonies?

War on Kobol between skin jobs and humans, my guess would be over resurrection technology.


Who nuked Earth, by the way? I've watched the episode 3 times and my head's about to explode. And where did they resurrect if it wasn't on Earth???

The centurions (or whatever they were called) that the Earth skin jobs created "rose up and killed their masters". The Final Five resurrected on a ship they had in orbit.


And how is Ellen resurrected at that age, if they said that Saul grew up with Adama? I was wondering if they could be resurrected at different ages.

Saul didn't grow up with Adama, they didn't meet until after the first war with the Cylons. I would think they resurrect at the same age each time, but that's just a guess.


So someone resurrected Starbuck, and gave her the same ship with a signal to earth and sent her back to Galactica. WTF?

Don't you just love the way RDM likes to frak with our minds?!!


And, what if one Daniel got away, like Ellen saved him. And Gaius is Daniel. I think there's a reason that we haven't been seeing much of him lately, cuz something big is gonna happen.

Maybe, but I'm betting on the Daniel connection being with Starbuck. Remember her comment to Sam when he said that the 7 model was called Daniel. "You're sure about the word, Daniel?" Like she recognized it from somewhere...and why the heck would she say "word", not "name"???

Bruman
February 15th, 2009, 08:01 PM
R. Daneel Olivav?

Back40
February 15th, 2009, 08:02 PM
just because kara's the harbringer of death....doesn't necessarily mean that it's the HUMANS she's bringing death to...she could be the harbringer of cylon extinction

Quote from the First Hybrid in Razor: "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the Apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her."

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Quote from the First Hybrid in Razor: "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the Apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her."

That depends on how you define human ;)

The cylons that were on earth Looked Human and the fact that they were able to reproduce make them almost human too

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Quote from the First Hybrid in Razor: "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the Apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her."

Don't feel bad Skydiver. I made the same mistake. It was only after viewing Razor again and hearing the words of, what was apparently the very first hybrid that the Centurions created, that I got that notion out of my head.

This is one of the biggest loose ends still hanging out there. What is Kara Thrace and what is she going to do to screw humanity in the coming weeks or were the hybrids lying? Has Kara already done her dirty work and who/what put her up to it?

Who is the One-True-God? Who/what were the Gods of the 12 tribes?

Is there another functional resurrection ship near Earth (other than the one taken back to the Colonies by the Final Five)?

Who/what is about to resurrect Samuel T. Anders? Is it the same person/thing that resurrected Kara Thrace?

Is God trying to keep the fleet from moving?

I'll stop, but the list goes on.

BobBot
February 15th, 2009, 08:41 PM
Just throwing this out there, does anybody know if the 12 colonies were in seperate systems? Because to me having 12 Earth like planets in such a condensed area seems highly unlikely

Has it been established that they were all in one system, and that each colony was a different world? I know the writers considered having all 12 colonies on one planet at the beginning, but I don't know any more than that. There could be two or three neighbouring star systems with two or three habitable worlds (not just planets, but could include Jupiter-style moon systems) each. You could also have something llike having a colony in America, and another in Europe - two colonies, one world.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 08:48 PM
That depends on how you define human ;)

The cylons that were on earth Looked Human and the fact that they were able to reproduce make them almost human too

It seems very likely that the Earth-based "Cylon" skinjobs were once human. They were humans on Kobol who decided to extend their lives by transferring their consciousness into synthetic bodies. It appears to me, however, that none of the 13 tribes had advanced the state of Centurion artificial intelligence to the point that the robots could achieve sentient self-awareness. Not prior to leaving Kobol.
Because of this, the "Skinjobs" of Earth would have still thought of themselves as humans and as the creators of their own Centurions, who later rose up and rebelled against them some 1000-2000 years prior to the similar uprising in the Colonial system.

fwupow
February 15th, 2009, 09:13 PM
Ellen seems to lay claim to having made John/Cavil, but, in fact, Cavil must have been a mechanical Cylon whose consciousness was transferred from a Centurion body to a humanoid one.

This was the deal that the Final Five made with the Cylons to get them to stop the 1st war against the Colonies. All Eight models including the "Daniel" must have been transfers of a Centurion consciousness into a synthetic human body. This would explain why Cavil was ranting on about how unhappy he is with his weak and inadequate fleshly body. He is probably the only one who remembers an existence as a mechanical Centurion. The other six would too, if Cavil hadn't wiped their memories.

I don't know why Ellen talks about having given Boomer, Cavil and the rest of the 8 models "free will", when the Colonial Cylons already had it when they were still mechs. Perhaps, she means that humans in general gave Cylons "free will"?

GateTrek2004
February 15th, 2009, 09:30 PM
I wonder if your right on that fwupow. Cause if the centurions were the ones believing in a single god and the SS do believe in a single god, it would make sense. Once the SS came to be, that's when they put those inhibitors into all the chrome jobs and make them serve them.

madk99
February 16th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Just finished reading all the comments. Great reviews and clarification of the episode, especially for those of us who don't have DVR, so the once is all we get until it repeats.


You can get it on scifi.com and on hulu.com Beats paying for the DVR !

Tain
February 16th, 2009, 01:36 AM
A note on the Colonial Centurions: I think they are the big victims here. Considering the "new" model centurions are different in structure than the original ones that made the deal with the 5, what do you bet that Centurions were offered their own form of mechanical resurrection, then betrayed by either the 5 or cavil? They build new bodies for them, improved ones, but when the centurions transfer into these new bodies, they already have the inhibitors in place, in effect enslaving them again. I don't see any other way the Centurions would voluntarily give up their free will. This could also explain the old Centurions and the hybrid from Razor. Perhaps they realized what was going on, albeit too late to stop it, and thus fled into space to avoid being robot zombiefied?

GateTrek2004
February 16th, 2009, 01:38 AM
Just finished reading all the comments. Great reviews and clarification of the episode, especially for those of us who don't have DVR, so the once is all we get until it repeats.

There is still technology out there called a VCR to record off TV if you don't want to pay for that. DVR is something I'll never pay for, unless im forced to.

Mongoletsi
February 16th, 2009, 03:18 AM
Well in the BSG Universe Earth is approx 4 light years from the colonies and Kobol approx 10 - 13 light months
Interesting, where did these figures come from?

salmidach
February 16th, 2009, 05:49 AM
I think Anders has resurrected.

The way he told Saul at the end to stay with the fleet sounded like an inevitability comment, he knew what was going to happen.

also, the PC doc said that he had patched up the hole fine but the nurse said that he couldn't hear Kara talking there was no brain activity. After reading the posts on this topic and watching the episode again, Organic mind transfer (OMT) seems to be triggered when there is no brain activity. so has Anders resurrected to the ship on/around Earth? I think he has and as the 4 didn't know where Ellen was and the remaining 3 don't know anything of their past then they wouldn't know where Anders would end up.

Only Ellen will be able to tell us if/where Anders has resurrected too.

Arative
February 16th, 2009, 06:01 AM
It seems very likely that the Earth-based "Cylon" skinjobs were once human. They were humans on Kobol who decided to extend their lives by transferring their consciousness into synthetic bodies. It appears to me, however, that none of the 13 tribes had advanced the state of Centurion artificial intelligence to the point that the robots could achieve sentient self-awareness. Not prior to leaving Kobol.
Because of this, the "Skinjobs" of Earth would have still thought of themselves as humans and as the creators of their own Centurions, who later rose up and rebelled against them some 1000-2000 years prior to the similar uprising in the Colonial system.

Anders said that the resurrection tech fell out of use once their people started to procreate. That would seem to imply that they were artificial beings to begin with, who evolved to the point of being able to have children.

Rac80
February 16th, 2009, 06:02 AM
R. Daneel Olivav?
HA! nice to know I am not the only asimov fan here! green for that! Thanks for the laugh.


Ellen seems to lay claim to having made John/Cavil, but, in fact, Cavil must have been a mechanical Cylon whose consciousness was transferred from a Centurion body to a humanoid one.

This was the deal that the Final Five made with the Cylons to get them to stop the 1st war against the Colonies. All Eight models including the "Daniel" must have been transfers of a Centurion consciousness into a synthetic human body. This would explain why Cavil was ranting on about how unhappy he is with his weak and inadequate fleshly body. He is probably the only one who remembers an existence as a mechanical Centurion. The other six would too, if Cavil hadn't wiped their memories.

I don't know why Ellen talks about having given Boomer, Cavil and the rest of the 8 models "free will", when the Colonial Cylons already had it when they were still mechs. Perhaps, she means that humans in general gave Cylons "free will"?

INTERESTING theories, I too have come to the idea that cavil is the big baddie here.

BobBot
February 16th, 2009, 06:05 AM
Interesting, where did these figures come from?

I don't believe the figures of 4 light years to Earth and 14 light months to Kobol. That's way too close - Earth's (real life) nearest neighbour is 4 light years away. To have encountered all the planets etc that the fleet has, they would have needed to have gone a very long route around, only to end up virtually back where they started. Also, when Kara comes back to the fleet after finding Earth, the zoom out-then-in of the fleet's position and the position of Earth looks like a distance of several thousand light years. Why go all that way, when Earth was close enough to be detected from Caprica long before the Cylons were created? It would have been investigated as soon as FTL was invented, Cylons would have been discovered and the 13th Tribe would no longer have been 'lost'.

g.o.d
February 16th, 2009, 06:11 AM
I don't believe the figures of 4 light years to Earth and 14 light months to Kobol. That's way too close - Earth's (real life) nearest neighbour is 4 light years away. To have encountered all the planets etc that the fleet has, they would have needed to have gone a very long route around, only to end up virtually back where they started. Also, when Kara comes back to the fleet after finding Earth, the zoom out-then-in of the fleet's position and the position of Earth looks like a distance of several thousand light years. Why go all that way, when Earth was close enough to be detected from Caprica long before the Cylons were created? It would have been investigated as soon as FTL was invented, Cylons would have been discovered and the 13th Tribe would no longer have been 'lost'.

yes, and one of the most interesting things is, the cylon civil war took place on the Jupiter's orbit

P-90_177
February 16th, 2009, 06:35 AM
There is still technology out there called a VCR to record off TV if you don't want to pay for that. DVR is something I'll never pay for, unless im forced to.

VCRS!! PAH! I spit on them! We shall speak of them no more!!

Corona
February 16th, 2009, 08:20 AM
Damn, some of you guys are good! Try this.

What happened on the baseship when D'Anna gave the Centurions back their freedom of choice? Massacre, wasn't it? What significance can we put on that?

D'Anna stays on nuked Earth but why? Is there a resurrection hub buried somewhere in an underground lab which she is looking for?

Chief Tyrol will introduce a Cylon biological agent into the ship. How will this affect the humans. Will it copy every detail and make a duplicate Galactica and crew as per Kara. That would be one big project though but they did get a Viper duplicated.

I would give Cavil a metal body minus the corrosion proofing. Let him rust!

Where is the RTF now? Still around Earth? I don't think they jumped before the rebellion so that's where I think they are.

I think it was a big change from frak the Cylons to really going to extreme measures to save Anders. Not too long ago they could have charged admission to watch a skinjob die. Now?

Did anyone do the math to see how many lives the rebellion took?

See what thinking causes? More questions!

Phenix
February 16th, 2009, 08:47 AM
That being said here's what has not been proven...

-There is no evidence as to who fired the first shot in the holocaust or the final outcome of any survivors other than the Final Five.

-There is no evidence that the Centurion who was with Boomer & Ellen had his higher brain functions inhibited or uninhibited.

-There is no additional, definitive information provided as to Starbuck's true identity, destiny or the circumstances surrounding her death & return.

-There is no evidence that one of the Number Seven's survived or was rescued and was somewhere in the Colonies, is Kara's father or was at any time in the fleet.

-There is no evidence that Cavill is a homosexual.*

-There is no definitive evidence that Cavill is the one who programmed the other Significant Seven to NOT think about the Final Five.



*Had to toss that in there, someone just mentioned Dumbeldore to me.

The homosexual comment was not needed especially considering the two characters you are somewhat comparing.

You are overlooking that Cavil has the ability to manipulate the base code of other cylons. He most likely wiped the memories of all other models regarding Daniel and the Final Five. I would not be surprised if he placed the inhibitors in the upgraded Centaurions. Another poster mentioned that there is a lot of forgetting in to pull these plots together. I disagree since Cavil is the Cylon behind the scene controlling the other Cylons.

Berg417448
February 16th, 2009, 08:51 AM
You meant Natalie not D'Anna. D'anna and all of the 3's were boxed when the cylon civil war erupted.

D'anna isn't looking for anything on earth. She's given up. It is not likely that Her character will be back unless it is in flashbacks because the actress was not signed for anymore episodes.

The fleet jumped away from earth a while back. Remember the webisodes featuring Gaeta , the two Eights and some others who were stuck in the raptor together after the jump?

Corona
February 16th, 2009, 09:42 AM
D'anna isn't looking for anything on earth. She's given up. It is not likely that Her character will be back unless it is in flashbacks because the actress was not signed for anymore episodes.

Thanks, but..............

Info on contracts and calls should be under the tag.

Awesome-O
February 16th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Why hasn't anyone in the BSG world thought about relocating back to Caprica after they deal with Cavil?

Assuming the RTF survives, Kara's trip back to Caprica a couple of seasons ago proved it is still habitable, although there was a manageable level of radiation. There were even humans still alive there and more than enough infrastructure...Kara and Helo visited Kara's still intact flat on Caprica, listened to some her old music and smoked cigars she left behind and then even drove her old truck out of the garage and used it to go after Cylons. The point is, much of the stuff they left behind is still there so they wouldn't have to live in tents like on New Caprica. Rather than destroy themselves after the discovery of inhabitable doomsday earth, they could end the cycle by figuring out how to deal with Cavil and then head back to Caprica with the rebel Cylons.

I'm sure the writers have a better ending planned, but this is one option other than running away forever. It is clear that the Cylons will always be able to find the humans, so they need to make real peace before re-settling anyway.

Maybe they could build new "dumbed down" Centurians to help clean things up :)

Awesome-O
February 16th, 2009, 09:59 AM
You meant Natalie not D'Anna. D'anna and all of the 3's were boxed when the cylon civil war erupted.

D'anna isn't looking for anything on earth. She's given up. It is not likely that Her character will be back unless it is in flashbacks because the actress was not signed for anymore episodes.

The fleet jumped away from earth a while back. Remember the webisodes featuring Gaeta , the two Eights and some others who were stuck in the raptor together after the jump?

Actually, the fleet jumped back to where they started during that webisode, so they still should be close to Earth. Near the end, Tigh mentions that the fleet jumped back after realizing it was a false alarm.

cameron1
February 16th, 2009, 10:31 AM
ander's verbal recollection was dissapointing, a word-of-mouth data download to what would otherwise make some interesting stories. they could've at least done a stream-of-conscious set of flashbacks thruout this particular show while the doctors were working on him, for the audience's benifit, and then later imply ellen's explaination of it all to the other four offscreen.

tho they were also jumping to and fro with ellen's timeline, so maybe they considered it and weren't able to do it without the confusion. as it is, i've watched this show twice and i'm still a little confused.

overall, until they came out with the final five idea, they hadn't really developed interactions and histories between the cylons. i'm glad they did, but i don't think they allowed for the time to flesh out their development--so to speak. so now they're trying to throw hail mary passes before the series ends.

with final five and starbuck, and the cylon revolutions, they could've devoted this entire season toward developing the cylons' stories, and then returned to galactica. it might have been dislocating, as the previous three seasons were mostly about people, but i think they could have pulled it off.

i've enjoyed the show. so say we all.

Awesome-O
February 16th, 2009, 10:50 AM
It seems very likely that the Earth-based "Cylon" skinjobs were once human. They were humans on Kobol who decided to extend their lives by transferring their consciousness into synthetic bodies. It appears to me, however, that none of the 13 tribes had advanced the state of Centurion artificial intelligence to the point that the robots could achieve sentient self-awareness. Not prior to leaving Kobol.
Because of this, the "Skinjobs" of Earth would have still thought of themselves as humans and as the creators of their own Centurions, who later rose up and rebelled against them some 1000-2000 years prior to the similar uprising in the Colonial system.

I posted something a bit similar earlier, and while it seems like a long shot, I think it is a possibility.

In this weeks episode, Ellen kept talking about human nature. It is in most human's nature to want to live longer, so why not explore the possibility that long ago, humans downloaded themselves thereby extending their life? That could also explain the gods being angry. It wouldn't be unlike the writers to deceive us a bit as well. I don't recall Anders every referring to the FF as Cylons while he was remembering stuff in the hospital and he really wanted the FF to stay with the fleet of mostly humans. In this case, the humans may have started the cycle, and it would explain why the FF are so important.

Berg417448
February 16th, 2009, 11:20 AM
Actually, the fleet jumped back to where they started during that webisode, so they still should be close to Earth. Near the end, Tigh mentions that the fleet jumped back after realizing it was a false alarm.

And then Tigh talks about how the fleet is going to jump away again at the end of the episode when he is talking to D'anna.
On the Galactica , Adama ordered Hoshi to take Dee's position. He told Gaeta to locate the nearest G, F or K starsystem. He then told Hoshi to ask if the Cylons want to join the fleet.


Adama then gave a speech. He said that it's clear that they can't stay on Earth. He then speaks about how the thirteen tribes did the same.

I've seen no evidence that they are still near earth.

HAL2100
February 16th, 2009, 12:07 PM
In the Bible, Daniel was the one who first foresaw Armageddon/The End Times.

Skydiver
February 16th, 2009, 12:21 PM
if the analogy holds true, could be why cavil killed him, because daniel knew what cavil was going to do

HAL2100
February 16th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Concerning Cavil being made in the image of Ellen's father...

It just goes to show that the Electra complex is a valid theory. Nice to know that Daddy-issues can lead to the near extinction of the entire human race. Daddies love your daughters - if you don't you might just cause the end of the world.

HAL2100
February 16th, 2009, 12:30 PM
if the analogy holds true, could be why cavil killed him, because daniel knew what cavil was going to do

I don't think that he killed him because of that. I brought it up because if there's something similar in Colonial religion/history (if the name Daniel carries the same symbolism), then Kara Thrace (aka the Harbinger of Death, the Herald of the Apocalypse and the candy-stripper of Hades) might be crapping in her pants at the possibility that there's some truth to the prophecy - if she thought that there was some actual real-life connection between her and 'Daniel'. Honestly, if someone told you that you were going to lead the rest of the species to their death, wouldn't you be the lest bit stressed out?

tricky
February 16th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Thinking back to Razor: the old guy who they found; didn't he claim to be 'God'?
I havent watched it in a while, so it's a little sketchy in my head.

I think John, knowing what he was going to do to the FF, messed with the resurrection process: Saul and Ellen were downloaded into younger shells, and planted into the Colonial population during the war. The other three he kept boxed until he dumped them into the colonies a few decades later.
Saul lived his life, ageing to his current (and original) age, as did Ellen. I wonder if the others were also older, but they are still in their younger shells? (a really evil guy woulda switched the bodies a little)

I still think John is the 'Prime', or first #1 (cavil fleshjob). I don't think any of the Cavil's we've see have been John. But then again, it would explain the seduction of Ellen, the torture (but not killing) of Saul, making Anders a freedom fighter, Tyrol a family man, and Torry what ever she did on New Caprica: He kept them close, jumping through hoops for his own amusement.

Corona
February 16th, 2009, 12:53 PM
Webisodes? I have to call bs if there is information contained in otherwise unadvertised sources.

Stick to what comes through the tv machine or put up obvious commercials stating that we should go to werever to see additional info.

TheChosen1
February 16th, 2009, 12:54 PM
1) They keep referring to "John" as a "boy" but perhaps it's not intended to be taken literally. I think now that they might though.
2) Good question. I hope it gets answered.
3) I'm not usually into all that meta-physical crap, but... Anders brain emptied, and Saul/Six baby just started kicking. Hohum...

Just because someone is brain dead and there is no sign of activity doesn't mean they are actually dead-dead. People have been brought back to life after one has been brain dead. I suspect same thing will happen with Ander's if not he may be redownloaded into a body, like ellen perhaps if they get close to cavil which I thinkis coming very soon.

HAL2100
February 16th, 2009, 01:15 PM
Webisodes? I have to call bs if there is information contained in otherwise unadvertised sources.

Stick to what comes through the tv machine or put up obvious commercials stating that we should go to werever to see additional info.

Webisodes can be accepted as a part of the official cannon given that they are produced by the same team responsible for the production itself. There is ample examples of other franchises that have incorporated into cannon information not presented in film or TV. Lucasfilm has done an incredible job of managing all of the assorted Star Wars books to ensure that they are consistent with the existing stories and can be taken as cannon. Granted they do have a classification system that determines when something should be taken as cannon. (Anything that conflicts with the original films is not cannon. eg Darth Vader is not Luke's father. Anything that does not explicity contradict the original films can be taken as cannon (Palpatine slept with Padme). And a few other rules.)

I should also point out that I know that SciFi does advertise webisodes. The fact that other channels may not or that they may not air on syndicated outlets can't be taken as a reason to dismiss them.

Back40
February 16th, 2009, 01:41 PM
After these last couple of episodes, I'm starting to wonder if there wasn't some significance to Laura's visions of an empty, apparently abandoned Galactica in "The Hub"...

sunonmars
February 16th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Well its one of 3 things going to happen to Anders.

1 : He Dies
2 : He is a machine so why if his body still works his brain may just shut down and reboot to repair damage like a normal computer, maybe he is Windows 7. (sorry couldnt resist that).
3 : If they were close enough to a server, maybe there is a lab on earth being operational or the original 5 ship is nearby or Cavil's basestar.

P-90_177
February 16th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Why hasn't anyone in the BSG world thought about relocating back to Caprica after they deal with Cavil?

Assuming the RTF survives, Kara's trip back to Caprica a couple of seasons ago proved it is still habitable, although there was a manageable level of radiation. There were even humans still alive there and more than enough infrastructure...Kara and Helo visited Kara's still intact flat on Caprica, listened to some her old music and smoked cigars she left behind and then even drove her old truck out of the garage and used it to go after Cylons. The point is, much of the stuff they left behind is still there so they wouldn't have to live in tents like on New Caprica. Rather than destroy themselves after the discovery of inhabitable doomsday earth, they could end the cycle by figuring out how to deal with Cavil and then head back to Caprica with the rebel Cylons.

I'm sure the writers have a better ending planned, but this is one option other than running away forever. It is clear that the Cylons will always be able to find the humans, so they need to make real peace before re-settling anyway.

Maybe they could build new "dumbed down" Centurians to help clean things up :)

Caprica wasn't all that habitable. the only way they could survive was through anti radiation meds to bolster their bodies defenses so certainly they couldn't live in the cities where most of the fallout was. where Anders and his gang were hiding out could be an option but even then the radiation would cause major damage over time with crops most likely unable to be grown. Additionally it could be pointed out that the fleet probably wouldn't take cavils word that they would be left well enough alone.

Mongoletsi
February 16th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Webisodes? I have to call bs if there is information contained in otherwise unadvertised sources.

Stick to what comes through the tv machine or put up obvious commercials stating that we should go to werever to see additional info.

Nah mate, webisodes are definitely considered 100% canon. But - like the podcasts/commentaries - they just enhance the story; you don't need to watch them in order to follow the plot.

Wake
February 16th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Let me try this and tell me if I'm wrong.

Everyone on Kobol is human. At some point they create Centurions. A group of humans invents resurrection. Shortly after, the Centurions rebel, and everyone leaves Kobol as it is destroyed.

Most humans form the 12 colonies. The resurrection group are now artificial via their technology, and go settle on Earth. Not sure what happened to the Centurions on Kobol.

Here's what I'm not sure of. The artificial humans on Earth create Centurions AGAIN, they rebel again so the final 5 bring back the resurrection technology they had allowed to lapse, and save themselves just before the Centurions nuke Earth.

The final 5 head for the Colonies to warn them. The Colonies ALSO had recreated Centurions, AGAIN, and those Centurions were also rebelling. The final 5 get there too late. They strike a deal with the Centurions. Stop the war, we'll help you resurrect into skinjobs. The war continues as the Final 5 work. They create 8 models. Cavil kills #7, kills the final 5, resurrects them with new memories, places them into the colonies at or right after the end of the war. He also wipes the memories of the S7.

I still don't understand a thing about the Temple of Hope or the Book of Pythia, but I can worry about that later. I'm focusing on how everything started, for now.

BobBot
February 16th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Let me try this and tell me if I'm wrong.

Everyone on Kobol is human. At some point they create Centurions. A group of humans invents resurrection. Shortly after, the Centurions rebel, and everyone leaves Kobol as it is destroyed.

Most humans form the 12 colonies. The resurrection group are now artificial via their technology, and go settle on Earth. Not sure what happened to the Centurions on Kobol.

Here's what I'm not sure of. The artificial humans on Earth create Centurions AGAIN, they rebel again so the final 5 bring back the resurrection technology they had allowed to lapse, and save themselves just before the Centurions nuke Earth.

The final 5 head for the Colonies to warn them. The Colonies ALSO had recreated Centurions, AGAIN, and those Centurions were also rebelling. The final 5 get there too late. They strike a deal with the Centurions. Stop the war, we'll help you resurrect into skinjobs. The war continues as the Final 5 work. They create 8 models. Cavil kills #7, kills the final 5, resurrects them with new memories, places them into the colonies at or right after the end of the war. He also wipes the memories of the S7.

I still don't understand a thing about the Temple of Hope or the Book of Pythia, but I can worry about that later. I'm focusing on how everything started, for now.

I don't remember anything in the show that suggests Kobol had Cylons of any sort. We don't know why Kobol was abandoned in favour of the 12 colonies. We only know that the 13th colony had resurrection tech at some point, lost it, then reinvented it at around the same time as they invented Centurions. The centurions rebelled and the FF were killed in the attacks, but were able to use their resurrection technology to resurrect aboard an orbiting starship. They decided to go warn the other colonies about treating artificial life badly. The rest of what you say is correct, except that we don't know if John wiped the S7's memories. It could be he just killed the model prototypes, or maybe they are still around on the Cylon homeworld.

We haven't found out how the Temple of Hope or the Book of Pythia were created. We don't know what happened to Kara, or who the Angels are. That should all be revealed soon :D

L-S
February 16th, 2009, 03:43 PM
Ehh, not a fan of heavy exposition but I suppose it was necessary. What really sold me were Cavil's tirades.


Exposition, Exposition, Exposition. And yet,

Watchable, framed by hospital (Anders and humanoid-pals) and kidnapping (Ellen/Cavill) drama.

Results:

1. No, not everyone is a cylon.

2. Some cylons are good.

3. One cylon is very angry, very very angry! Bad little boy!

4. The Ellen as momma cylon is passably interesting, not a total failure, and yet, not a total success. A little more than a little tacked on, a little last minute. Still... we like the 'good holy mothers of bad unholy children' theme.

5. Anders (the actor, Trucco), is more than a big lumbering stud - he was quite affecting in the fragmented and damaged scenes. He can act without a gun. Nice of the writers to give him the chance.

6. That number six sure gets around, boy.

7. Where's Gaius?



I'm looking forward to Caprica. Hope they go straight to video. Looks like Logan's Run. Hoping for nudity.

Mysteries yet unsolved:

A. Kara cylon hybrid re-birthed with viper artist number 7 who's your daddy?

B. Gaius headcase sex slave delusion or symbiote christ manson guru new age voodoo bull**** where's he gonna go to?

C. Adama Roslin Lee Kara Anders Galen Boomer Helo Athena Six Gaius Six Saul - These are the days of our lives!

D. It's all happened before kill all of 'em some of 'em none of 'em all of some some of all six of one...??

Still tuned in. What a remarkable bit of theater. Love it.

Skydiver
February 16th, 2009, 04:46 PM
: He is a machine so why if his body still works his brain may just shut down and reboot to repair damage like a normal computer, maybe he is Windows 7. (sorry couldnt resist that).

maybe more along hte line that he needs control/alt/delete ;)

Back40
February 16th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Let me try this and tell me if I'm wrong.

Everyone on Kobol is human. At some point they create Centurions. A group of humans invents resurrection. Shortly after, the Centurions rebel, and everyone leaves Kobol as it is destroyed.

No evidence that they created Centurions on Kobol. I'm guessing that it was something to do with electronic memory transfer/resurrection technology that created the conflict between man and the "gods", but this really isn't clear.


Most humans form the 12 colonies. The resurrection group are now artificial via their technology, and go settle on Earth. Not sure what happened to the Centurions on Kobol.

See above. I'm thinking it wasn't Centurions created, but the ability to transfer memory to a synthetic life form (artificial immortality). Skin jobs, in other words.


Here's what I'm not sure of. The artificial humans on Earth create Centurions AGAIN, they rebel again so the final 5 bring back the resurrection technology they had allowed to lapse, and save themselves just before the Centurions nuke Earth.

Not sure I agree with the "again" part :)


The final 5 head for the Colonies to warn them. The Colonies ALSO had recreated Centurions, AGAIN, and those Centurions were also rebelling. The final 5 get there too late. They strike a deal with the Centurions. Stop the war, we'll help you resurrect into skinjobs. The war continues as the Final 5 work. They create 8 models. Cavil kills #7, kills the final 5, resurrects them with new memories, places them into the colonies at or right after the end of the war. He also wipes the memories of the S7.

Not necessarily "again" - Sam's statements indicate only that they knew that the other colonies would continue to create artificial life (as the 13th tribe had back on Earth and on Kobol). We don't know how long this cycle has gone on, I'm still waiting to find out why humans left Earth to go to Kobol in the first place.

We don't know that he wipes the memories of the Significant Seven, but certainly there is an injunction there to discourage them from even thinking about the five and I think John is a likely source for that. I'm perfectly happy to blame him for the inhibitors that dumbed down the Centurions as well :)


I still don't understand a thing about the Temple of Hope or the Book of Pythia, but I can worry about that later. I'm focusing on how everything started, for now.

Ellen in conversation with John/Cavil: "The Temple of Hopes, built by the 13th tribe 3000 years ago when they left Kobol. They stopped and prayed for guidance during their exodus and then God showed them the way to Earth." I think that the Pythian prophecies are partially historical record of that exodus, partially prophecy (although I have my doubts about the prophecy part because "all this has happened before and will happen again").

Arative
February 16th, 2009, 05:27 PM
Some answers from the writers.
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html#more

Clears some things up
Earth was destroyed by their own metal cylon's
Cavil blocked the other 6 memories
Kobol is the origin of humanity
Final five didn't believe in one god until they met the centurions.

HAL2100
February 16th, 2009, 06:33 PM
I'm liking the idea that there were originally twelve tribes on Kobol. A faction of them developed human-form Cylon bodies and the ability to transfer memories into the bodies once someone died (and only once they died).

A first, there was not outcry or protest, but things evolved to the point where the tribes disagreed with this greatly. As a result, those who created or advocated the technology and those persons downloaded into it the bodies formed the 13th tribe and left Kobol peacefully. Over the course of time the remaining humans either all died and downloaded or interbred with the human-form Cylons sometime after reaching Earth.

Back40
February 16th, 2009, 06:46 PM
Some answers from the writers.
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html#more

Clears some things up
Earth was destroyed by their own metal cylon's
Cavil blocked the other 6 memories
Kobol is the origin of humanity
Final five didn't believe in one god until they met the centurions.

Excellent Q & A, thanks for posting!

Mongoletsi
February 17th, 2009, 01:48 AM
Just because someone is brain dead and there is no sign of activity doesn't mean they are actually dead-dead. People have been brought back to life after one has been brain dead.

Indeed, I'm of the informed opinion though that once higher function is lost (as with Anders) then when/if they come back, they retain only basic functions. There was a Discovery program about it :D

HAL2100
February 17th, 2009, 06:16 AM
Indeed, I'm of the informed opinion though that once higher function is lost (as with Anders) then when/if they come back, they retain only basic functions. There was a Discovery program about it :D

You're making the assumption that the Earth-Cylon brains function in the exact manner as human brains.

Corona
February 17th, 2009, 06:35 AM
You're making the assumption that the Earth-Cylon brains function in the exact manner as human brains.

Or Terminator brains (processors) for that matter. We have seen the automatic reset a couple of times.

I still would like to disassemble a Skinjob to see what makes it tick. How much is human?

s09119
February 17th, 2009, 07:02 AM
I think I get it now; the 13th tribe, they weren't Cylons at all. Not in the sense we think of them. Now before you shout, hear me out:

We know that all 13 tribes arose on Kobol as humans, and that eventually they broke with the "gods" and were forced to abandon their homeworld for the Colonies and Earth, respectively. Now my guess is that the people who would one day become the 13th tribe began experimenting with ways to become immortal, but creating copies of their bodies and, upon death, transferring their consciousnesses into those copies, essentially carrying on life in an identical form.

The "gods" were displeased by this, as were the other tribes, who believed that it was death that gave meaning to life, and thus the resurrectionists were breaking their sacred covenant. Eventually, they were exiled for their blasphemous ways, and the 13th (or, in actuality, the 1st) tribe set off in their generational ships to try and find a new home, perfecting their immortalizing technology all the way. That said, they were still humans, not machines; there was nothing mechanical about them, they were all still their original species, just with the ability to transfer their minds when they died via an external device.

Thousands of years pass and the 13th tribe settles on Earth. They create a thriving civilization and eventually build Centurions to defend themselves and provide a steady labor force. Seeing that, perhaps, death was no longer something to be feared, they abandoned the use of resurrection to give more meaning to their existences (finally coming to terms with their ancient brothers and sisters). Now they just lives as normal humans once more, but the Centurions had grown jealous of their masters and their comfort... and they launched an unprovoked nuclear attack on the 13th tribe, all but destroying them.

So now we're back to the Colonials, who do exactly the same thing and suffer the same fate, with one exception; their version of skinjobs really are part machine, which, in a way, makes them far less-perfect than their ancestors from Earth. The Cylons will never become the ultimate machine because they can never rid themselves of their need to add more and more to themselves. Only the 13th tribe succeeded there; they made themselves as perfect as they could, and then gave it all up to be at peace with the universe.

Thoughts?

Wake
February 17th, 2009, 07:09 AM
not sure why i thought there were toasters on kobol, guess i misheard it somewhere.


i remember seeing the slightly different centurion on earth so we know the earth/cylons made centurions as well as the colonial people.


another comment i have is how coincidental is it for tyrol to land on earth like 50 feet from where he died thousands of years ago heh heh.



someone just said colonials were working on artificial life. but obviously not skin jobs, since they were totally shocked by them. were you referring to the centurions who rebelled?



what else. so when the ff showed up at the colonies to warn them about artificial life, they only talked to centurions? they didnt go down and talk to the humans and let them know they might have found a way to help?

BobBot
February 17th, 2009, 07:18 AM
I still would like to disassemble a Skinjob to see what makes it tick. How much is human?

We know that they react to radiation differently, and that their blood lacks antigens. It's a bit of an oversight that no-one created a 'real' cylon detector, since these differences were known early on. Certainly this implies that there is some noticeable difference at the cellular level. We also know that optical data can be fed into their nervous system by sticking a cable into their arms. Presumably this ability has something to do with organic data transfer, but it means the nerves can handle data in a way we can't. Also, the brain would need to be able to integrate the memories from a download, so there must be some sort of structural/and or neuronal differences. But Ander's brain seemed perfectly human, and was treated as such by the neurosurgeon.

I believe the skinjobs are as human as possible due to organic memory transfer being built for human resurrection, a way to cheat death. I know I wouldn't want to come back in some non-human form, so I expect it was the same for the 13th tribe.

I'm looking forward to finding out why the Centurions agreed to stop the war in exchange for Skinjob tech. Why was it so valuable to them? I suspect that...


...cylons were created to resurrect Graystone's daughter, from what we know of the Caprica tv show. If she had enough 'human' aspects in her personality, she would resent the mechanical form and seek to be human again. She may well have helped develop the rest of the Cylons (we know of several types of Cylons already - Skinjobs, original Centurions, Raiders, Hybrids, proto-Cylons from Caprica, 'new' Centurions, Heavy Raiders) in much the same way as Cavil helped with the Skinjobs. Perhaps she implanted the desire to be human into the rest of them, either deliberately or by inheritance. She may also be what the Cylons call the one true god, or she may have 'seen' god in much the same way that the Hybrids - stuck between human and machine, life and death - are in touch with something.

HAL2100
February 17th, 2009, 07:20 AM
We know that all 13 tribes arose on Kobol as humans

While RDM has confirmed that Kobol is the origin of human life, we do not have any evidence to support that all 13 were comprised of humans. All we know is that by the time of the holocaust on Earth, the 13th tribe was comprised solely of Cylons. This does not indicate that the 13th tribe was all human, all Cylone or a mix of either at the time that they resided on or departed from Kobol.

Mongoletsi
February 17th, 2009, 03:15 PM
You're making the assumption that the Earth-Cylon brains function in the exact manner as human brains.

I think we can safely say that in this case, we're to assume the same principal applies. I don't think Anders, as we know him, is going to come back - at least not without a huge amount of angst and trauma and pseudo-mythological babble!

Mongoletsi
February 17th, 2009, 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by s09119 http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=9764269#post9764269)
We know that all 13 tribes arose on Kobol as humans


This does not indicate that the 13th tribe was all human, all Cylone or a mix of either at the time that they resided on or departed from Kobol.

So basically we can draw no conclusions, is what you're saying :D

I would tend to agree, but I suspect that - as they regained the ability to reproduce sexually on Earth - that they left Kobol either as a mixture or "all Cylon". I certainly don't think they'd have been "all Human".

Edit: Meant to say though, that they MUST have been human to start with, resurrection technology couldn't exactly evolve could it!

Sela
February 17th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Some answers from the writers.
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/02/battlestar-galactica-no-exit-ellen-cavil-boomer.html#more

Clears some things up
Earth was destroyed by their own metal cylon's
Cavil blocked the other 6 memories
Kobol is the origin of humanity
Final five didn't believe in one god until they met the centurions.
Thanks so much for the link. It clarified quite a few of the questions I had from this episode. Glad to have read this before the next episode.

Thanks again!

Matt G
February 17th, 2009, 04:01 PM
1. OK...I can sort of relate to how Cavil feels about his human body but overall...he's in denial about a lot of stuff. Seen that story before though so fine by me!

2. OK...current theory on Final Five is...they 'were' originally human. The cycle on Earth went from humans to AIs(I'm not caling them Cylon) and back to humans again. To be 'Cylon' is to be able to resurrect into a replica body. The FF made themselves 'Cylon'. Furthermore, Kara changed history and made herself a Cylon.

3. President Lee Adama. Fine.

4. Galactica is fracked!

HAL2100
February 17th, 2009, 04:19 PM
I think we can safely say that in this case, we're to assume the same principal applies. I don't think Anders, as we know him, is going to come back - at least not without a huge amount of angst and trauma and pseudo-mythological babble!

Actually, no we can't assume that it functions the same and there is evidence to support that - Cylon resurrection. We know that the human form bodies are essentially clean slates until the download. We know also that there has to be some mechanism that triggers the download. Both would suggest that there's at least some difference in the brains to facilitate ressurrection.

HAL2100
February 17th, 2009, 04:46 PM
So basically we can draw no conclusions, is what you're saying :D
We can make no assumptions.



I would tend to agree, but I suspect that - as they regained the ability to reproduce sexually on Earth - that they left Kobol either as a mixture or "all Cylon". I certainly don't think they'd have been "all Human".

Edit: Meant to say though, that they MUST have been human to start with, resurrection technology couldn't exactly evolve could it!

1) Saying that the 13th was all Cylon or a human/cylon mix is an assumption. The only fact that we know is that by the time of the holocaust the 13th tribe was all Cylon.

2) The fact that the Human-Cylons were able to eventually reproduce sexually can not be taken as evidence that the 13th tribe was all human, all cylon or a mix thereof upon departing Kobol. We know that the Human Colonial-Cylons appear to be biologically the same as a human being down to the ability to have intercourse and the means to carry a pregnancy (Number Six and Boomer).

3) Stating that the 13th tribe MUST have been human because of the resurrection technology is also an assumption.
-Whats to say that the Humans didn't create the Cylons on Kobol, the Cylons evolved and in the course of their evolution figured out how to resurrect? (There's plenty of references in SciFi of machine creating machine.)
-Whats to say that the humans created Cylons & resurrection and then grouped them all into the 13th tribe?

Speculation and suspicions are fine.

Back40
February 17th, 2009, 05:49 PM
someone just said colonials were working on artificial life. but obviously not skin jobs, since they were totally shocked by them. were you referring to the centurions who rebelled?

No, I'm thinking that the organic memory transfer technology that came with the 13th tribe from Kobol was first used to transfer into humanoid synthetic lifeforms while the 13 tribes were still on Kobol and that that technology created a rift between those who embraced the technology and those who opposed it. The Colonials may simply not have retained the knowledge of the synthetic humanoids after three or four thousand years.


what else. so when the ff showed up at the colonies to warn them about artificial life, they only talked to centurions? they didnt go down and talk to the humans and let them know they might have found a way to help?

I know, that's a bit odd...you can see that on the one hand, they may not want to reveal themselves to the humans as Cylons seeing as the humans are at war with the Cylon, but....maybe after their own experience with Cylons, they figured that eventually the machines would win if they weren't stopped, and the only way to stop them was "bribery", so they dealt directly with the Centurions rather than the humans??

BobBot
February 17th, 2009, 06:06 PM
No, I'm thinking that the organic memory transfer technology that came with the 13th tribe from Kobol was first used to transfer into humanoid synthetic lifeforms while the 13 tribes were still on Kobol and that that technology created a rift between those who embraced the technology and those who opposed it. The Colonials may simply not have retained the knowledge of the synthetic humanoids after three or four thousand years.



I know, that's a bit odd...you can see that on the one hand, they may not want to reveal themselves to the humans as Cylons seeing as the humans are at war with the Cylon, but....maybe after their own experience with Cylons, they figured that eventually the machines would win if they weren't stopped, and the only way to stop them was "bribery", so they dealt directly with the Centurions rather than the humans??

It makes sense that they went to the Cylons, since the war was already in progress. What I don't get is why the Centurions didn't just kill these humans-who-claim-to-be-Cylons. Presumably there was some sort of Cylon leader they spoke to, but how did the FF get to talk to it?

Back40
February 17th, 2009, 06:10 PM
It makes sense that they went to the Cylons, since the war was already in progress. What I don't get is why the Centurions didn't just kill these humans-who-claim-to-be-Cylons. Presumably there was some sort of Cylon leader they spoke to, but how did the FF get to talk to it?

Recognized them as fellow synthetics?? Better cross your fingers we get answers to this in "The Plan" :)

akuma07
February 18th, 2009, 12:56 AM
WOW

What an episode!

I like the way they've turned ellen's character round 360 degree froms a bumbling drunk whore to the actual creator! Well done to the actor for making it convincing.

Still not sure the what ultimate goal is, but I note that the titles have been updatded so show a very quick flash of the orginal war with old school centurions and ships.

Anyone else think if it rakes in enough money, and demand is such that it screams prequel teaser??????

GateTrek2004
February 18th, 2009, 01:40 AM
WOW

What an episode!

I like the way they've turned ellen's character round 360 degree froms a bumbling drunk whore to the actual creator! Well done to the actor for making it convincing.

Still not sure the what ultimate goal is, but I note that the titles have been updatded so show a very quick flash of the orginal war with old school centurions and ships.

Anyone else think if it rakes in enough money, and demand is such that it screams prequel teaser??????

I get told this ALL THE TIME when i make this mistake, so forgive me if i sound like an as*, but going 360 is going back to the way it was before. it would be a complete 180 would be the correct term ;)

As to the opening title, i think it will be back to a new title sequence next week, but it would be cool if i they kept it, just a little different now.

Mongoletsi
February 18th, 2009, 02:05 AM
You do love to disagree don't you :)


We can make no assumptions.
Speak for yourself, I'm basing mine on my knowledge of the show, and my knowledge of, well, everything. I really can't be arsed continuing this line of thought; BSG is fairly well grounded in science-fact (compared to other scifi), so I find it amazingly hard to believe that we're expected to inferm assume, whatever that Cylon brains work in a completely different way to Human brains. Especially Final Fivers, who are - I'm confident we'll discover - just modified Kobol-originating Humans. No, your assertion that Terran Cylon brains work completely differently is way off the mark.


1) Saying that the 13th was all Cylon or a human/cylon mix is an assumption. The only fact that we know is that by the time of the holocaust the 13th tribe was all Cylon.

Yep it's an assumption, and a damn good informed assumption. You're saying that Cylons evolved on Kobol? Go on, wait... ah now I'm sat down. Got myself a big mug of coffee, this should be interesting...


2) The fact that the Human-Cylons were able to eventually reproduce sexually can not be taken as evidence that the 13th tribe was all human, all cylon or a mix thereof upon departing Kobol. We know that the Human Colonial-Cylons appear to be biologically the same as a human being down to the ability to have intercourse and the means to carry a pregnancy (Number Six and Boomer).
Have we been watching the same show? Even MKII Skinjobs (Six, Athena, etc) are just modified Humans. They're not designed to appear human, because they are fundamentally human. Human bodies, grown in a vat from a template, modified a bit at the genetic level, then given a conciousness. I'm 100% confident this is how it works, especially now we've been told how the Colonial Skinjobs came about.


3) Stating that the 13th tribe MUST have been human because of the resurrection technology is also an assumption.
-Whats to say that the Humans didn't create the Cylons on Kobol, the Cylons evolved and in the course of their evolution figured out how to resurrect? (There's plenty of references in SciFi of machine creating machine.)
Again, I must've been watching something else.

Just to recap what I inferred:

- Humans evolved on Kobol.
- At some point, some humans masterred resurrection tech.
- Eventually they became dependant on it.
- This caused a schism, a war, 12 groups went one way, 1 the other.
- On Earth, the Kobolians eventually redeveloped the ability to reproduce.
- Later, they developed robots (dunno what they called them, probably not Cylons)
- They rebelled, etc.
- The few escapees* get to the Colonies, go "aaaargh".
- They grow modified human bodies in vats, transfer Cylon conciousnesses into them.
- And here we are.

Correct me where I'm wrong.

* Btw, what if more escaped. Where are they?
-Whats to say that the humans created Cylons & resurrection and then grouped them all into the 13th tribe?

Speculation and suspicions are fine.[/quote]

Dusk
February 18th, 2009, 04:21 AM
Some beautiful dialogue in this episode. Just wonderful. And lights have come on in previously dark areas... it's like watching the stars come out at dusk.

I must admit that Kate Vernon is a talented actor, and the scenes between Ellen and Cavil were mesmerising.

Subluminal travel with time dilation? Brilliant! Infuse Galactica with Basestar juice? Excellent! A handful of episodes to go? Saddening.

Arative
February 18th, 2009, 05:32 AM
Just to recap what I inferred:

- Humans evolved on Kobol.
- At some point, some humans masterred resurrection tech.
- Eventually they became dependant on it.
- This caused a schism, a war, 12 groups went one way, 1 the other.
- On Earth, the Kobolians eventually redeveloped the ability to reproduce.
- Later, they developed robots (dunno what they called them, probably not Cylons)
- They rebelled, etc.
- The few escapees* get to the Colonies, go "aaaargh".
- They grow modified human bodies in vats, transfer Cylon conciousnesses into them.
- And here we are.

Correct me where I'm wrong.

* Btw, what if more escaped. Where are they?
-Whats to say that the humans created Cylons & resurrection and then grouped them all into the 13th tribe?

Speculation and suspicions are fine.[/QUOTE]

Here is the time line as I understand it

There are 13 tribes on Kobol. 12 humans + 1 Cylon. Time muddies the facts for the humans tribes until it becomes 13 tribes of humans. The 13th tribe of Cylon seems to have maintained their shared history better than the humans.

Around 4000 years ago, the 13 tribe leaves for Earth or a planet they called Earth. The leave a trail to follow from Kobol and that trail finds its way into the book of Pythia. So there had to have been contact between Earth and Kobol prior to the exodus to the 12 colonies. There also had to have been contact between the 12 colonies and Earth or how else would the 5 know where to find them from Earth?

Sometime between 4000 and 2000 years ago, the 12 tribes leave Kobol for the colonies because of some disaster that happened on Kobol. 2000 years ago Earth is nuked by their own metal Cylon's. The 5 leave Earth following the path back to Kobol that their ancestors left and then onto the 12 colonies. That trip takes 2000 years because of no FTL tech.

50 years ago the 12 colonies create the Cylon race. The Cylon's rebel, find a one true God. The 5 arrive in the colonies, broker a truce between the humans and Cylons by telling the Cylon's they will create skinjobs for them and give them resurrection tech thinking that because they have a loving God, they will be peaceful.

The first skinjob the 5 created rebel's, boxed the 5 before planting them in the colonies without their memories, killed the 7th of 8 skinjob, programs the other 6 to forget about the 5. Puts inhibitor chips on the toasters to keep them from rebelling. Then creates a plan to wipe humanity out.

4 years ago, the series begins.
It would appear that the angel's, at least something calling themselves that has been behind a lot of the events. They appeared to the 5 and they appeared to Baltar and Caprica 6. Not sure they are Lord's of Kobol or something else. Hopefully we'll find out.

Flyboy
February 18th, 2009, 05:43 AM
I have absolutely no idea what any of you are talking about...

Berg417448
February 18th, 2009, 07:47 AM
I have absolutely no idea what any of you are talking about...


You probably don't get the Mac vs. PC commercials in your country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzbhEc6VVo

kefke20
February 18th, 2009, 08:19 AM
You probably don't get the Mac vs. PC commercials in your country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzbhEc6VVo

sorry but what is a mac???

pjt
February 18th, 2009, 08:22 AM
sorry but what is a mac???

That other platform when you develop a multiplatform application. :D

Berg417448
February 18th, 2009, 08:49 AM
sorry but what is a mac???

I'm sure you've heard of Apple:

http://www.apple.com/mac/

HAL2100
February 18th, 2009, 08:51 AM
I like the way they've turned ellen's character round 360 degree froms a bumbling drunk whore to the actual creator! Well done to the actor for making it convincing.

I wonder if Cavil didn't have a part in turning her into a tramp by doing more than just wiping out her memories of being on Earth.

HAL2100
February 18th, 2009, 08:53 AM
I get told this ALL THE TIME when i make this mistake, so forgive me if i sound like an as*, but going 360 is going back to the way it was before. it would be a complete 180 would be the correct term ;)

As to the opening title, i think it will be back to a new title sequence next week, but it would be cool if i they kept it, just a little different now.

you are correct grasshopper, i see that you are ready to have all the secrets of the universe reveal to you, which i will do no...(::cough:: grabs head ::stroke::)

Flyboy
February 18th, 2009, 09:34 AM
You probably don't get the Mac vs. PC commercials in your country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzbhEc6VVo
Ah!

Now I know what you're taking about.

Cheers.

s09119
February 18th, 2009, 09:58 AM
I was happy to see PC :)

Mac must die :D

HAL2100
February 18th, 2009, 10:05 AM
You do love to disagree don't you :)

Speak for yourself, I'm basing mine on my knowledge of the show, and my knowledge of, well, everything. I really can't be arsed continuing this line of thought; BSG is fairly well grounded in science-fact (compared to other scifi), so I find it amazingly hard to believe that we're expected to inferm assume, whatever that Cylon brains work in a completely different way to Human brains. Especially Final Fivers, who are - I'm confident we'll discover - just modified Kobol-originating Humans. No, your assertion that Terran Cylon brains work completely differently is way off the mark.

Yep it's an assumption, and a damn good informed assumption. You're saying that Cylons evolved on Kobol? Go on, wait... ah now I'm sat down. Got myself a big mug of coffee, this should be interesting...

Have we been watching the same show? Even MKII Skinjobs (Six, Athena, etc) are just modified Humans. They're not designed to appear human, because they are fundamentally human. Human bodies, grown in a vat from a template, modified a bit at the genetic level, then given a conciousness. I'm 100% confident this is how it works, especially now we've been told how the Colonial Skinjobs came about.

Again, I must've been watching something else.



I'm just saying that we shouldn't be making assumptions. To speculate is one thing as you are entitled to an opinion and interpretation, but I think that we should keep it at speculation and not move into assumption. Again, the hard and fast facts about the makup of the 13th tribe is that they came from Kobol and by the time of the holocaust were made up entirely of Human-form cylons. Anything else should be kept within the realm of speculation.

BobBot
February 18th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Some beautiful dialogue in this episode. Just wonderful. And lights have come on in previously dark areas... it's like watching the stars come out at dusk.

I must admit that Kate Vernon is a talented actor, and the scenes between Ellen and Cavil were mesmerising.

Subluminal travel with time dilation? Brilliant! Infuse Galactica with Basestar juice? Excellent! A handful of episodes to go? Saddening.

I agree, Kate Vernon did very well. So did Anders (Trucco?) I thought he was amazing in this episode - usually he's just a big lump, but he really does appear to have some acting chops on him.

Handful of episodes: saddening, yes, but I'm pleased too. It would have been a shame if the network had demanded many more years of storyline. It would have become too confusing, padded, hard to follow - we'd be desperate for resolution. So kudos to all involved for keeping it short and sweet. Another advantage of it being on a 'smaller' network like SciFi - they can't afford the salary increases year on year, so they have incentive to keep it short and successful ;) I'm sure there'll be a few more TV movies to come, especially to tie into Caprica, though.

Mongoletsi
February 18th, 2009, 02:00 PM
Sorry you guys, but how did homo sapiens cylonis evolve alongside homo sapiens sapiens?

They didn't. The only way that Humans and Cylons evolved together on Kobol is if artistic licence is employed heavily. In which case, fair enough but a bit disappointing.

If the FF are physiologically identical to Humans, then how can you possibly say that they are a different species? Pay attention people!

If I'm wrong, I'll honestly strip naked and paint "CYLON" on my arse then go for a walk down my street shouting "I am the one true god". Which would be a bad idea as I live in a rough area, and it's frakin freezing.

If you're wrong, you all need to send me $100 as I'm broke :D

HAL2100
February 18th, 2009, 02:30 PM
If the FF are physiologically identical to Humans, then how can you possibly say that they are a different species? Pay attention people!


It has not been stated in cannon that they are identical all the way down to the smallest minutiae of human physiology (note the emphasis). We know that they aren't given that in 'Sometimes a Great Notions' the Colonial-Cylons test the skeletons found on Earth (using their protocols) and determine that they are in fact Cylon. Just because Boomer and Helo were able to spawn Hera doesn't mean that they have the same physiology, just that their psychologies are compatible.

A horse is a horse and a donkey is a donky. Their physiologies are close, but not identical which is how you end up with a mule.

Mongoletsi
February 18th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Good point. Guess I gotta paint my ass...

Back40
February 18th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Candy apple red..... :D

HAL2100
February 18th, 2009, 06:44 PM
I guess the thought of him walking down the street buck naked, painted candy apple red shut us all up.

Coco Pops
February 18th, 2009, 06:45 PM
You probably don't get the Mac vs. PC commercials in your country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzbhEc6VVo


there is also an ad with PC vs MAC vs Linux and in that on Linux looks hot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d50LfiPWWM&feature=related&yt

PG15
February 18th, 2009, 09:36 PM
John Hodgman is brilliant. :D

But it was very strange. I know him more from his segments on The Daily Show (where he acts the same way), so having him in BSG was like "my funny world and my SciFi world are colliding!!" Besides, being a newbie to BSG, I always thought it was super serious, and in pops up John Hodgman. Lol. That was just surreal.

It almost felt like Stargate there, for a moment. ;)

g.o.d
February 19th, 2009, 06:15 AM
I haven't heard about him before

Coco Pops
February 19th, 2009, 06:37 AM
I'm just saying that we shouldn't be making assumptions. To speculate is one thing as you are entitled to an opinion and interpretation, but I think that we should keep it at speculation and not move into assumption. Again, the hard and fast facts about the makup of the 13th tribe is that they came from Kobol and by the time of the holocaust were made up entirely of Human-form cylons. Anything else should be kept within the realm of speculation.


But if the cylons are essentially the same as humans and indistinguishable from them then how do you account for some of their abilities and perculiarities like the glowing red spne when aroused, and the fact they can read an optical cable if it's stuck in their arm...... Sharon could do that..

Bruman
February 19th, 2009, 08:28 AM
I still say there's a good chance that the reason people concluded that Earth skeletons are skinjobs is because earth people CREATED the skinjobs based on their own physiology which is human (but may have evolved slight differences in the 1000s of years since the exodus from Kobol).

From the Colonial perspective, they encounter skinjobs first, perhaps discover tiny differences (at a minimum, the blood physiology, and maybe a few other things that made Baltar's Cylon detector go red). They conclude that this is what makes someone cylon. Now they go to Earth and try the test, and discover that Earth people look like skinjobs, therefore they are cylon.

But the causality is the reverse... cylon skinjobs look like Earth people because Earth people created cylon skinjobs based on their own physiology, not because Earth people are decended from cylon skinjobs.

However, the organic memory transfer thing somehow figures in here. Earth people are different from both colonials and cylon skinjobs, but somehow they are grouped in with the cylons.

HAL2100
February 19th, 2009, 08:30 AM
there is also an ad with PC vs MAC vs Linux and in that on Linux looks hot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d50LfiPWWM&feature=related&yt

Would have been much, much, better if they had gotten Tricia Helfer(sp?) in the red dress to play Linux?

HAL2100
February 19th, 2009, 08:34 AM
But if the cylons are essentially the same as humans and indistinguishable from them then how do you account for some of their abilities and perculiarities like the glowing red spne when aroused, and the fact they can read an optical cable if it's stuck in their arm...... Sharon could do that..

Essentially the same and being the same are two different things. The point that I was trying to make is that just because they look the same and have physiologies that are compatible enough for reproduction doesn't mean that a Human and a Cylon are identical beings.

lordolorin
February 19th, 2009, 08:38 AM
<snip>They told us that the 13th tribe was and it is cylon, the one and only cylons there are, period! There is no earth cylons, kobol cylons, colonial once, they are all the same design, created then, few years ago or now, all the same, as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty much obvious.

HAL2100
February 19th, 2009, 09:28 AM
<snip>They told us that the 13th tribe was and it is cylon, the one and only cylons there are, period! There is no earth cylons, kobol cylons, colonial once, they are all the same design, created then, few years ago or now, all the same, as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty much obvious.

But you're presuming that when the Final Five created Significant Seven, that they were able to create them exactly like themselves from a physiological and genetic standpoint. While there may be every reason, to conclude that that's the case, there's not hard and fast confirmation of it. Just because two things look the same and function the same doesn't mean that they are the same.

HAL2100
February 19th, 2009, 09:39 AM
For those of you that probably hate me for arguing that there's a difference between the hard and fast evidence/facts about the 13th Tribe and/or Cylons and the making of assumptions, try this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham_razor

Keeping in mind that there's more to it than the simple statement 'all things being equal, the simplest solution is probably the correct one'.

Coco Pops
February 19th, 2009, 02:07 PM
Would have been much, much, better if they had gotten Tricia Helfer(sp?) in the red dress to play Linux?

It would have been spooky hehe :)

I don't know about Tricia but I like dark hair and this Linux was a cutie she had a good smile.

BTW I got an EEE PC for my birthday in windows but there is a linux version and was wondering if linux is relatively easy to learn as I want to buy the other version too.

Mongoletsi
February 20th, 2009, 02:10 PM
I haven't heard about him before

I thought you were omnisciencent?

Mongoletsi
February 20th, 2009, 02:15 PM
the glowing red spne when aroused
The writers have stated that the one scene that was used in was a mistake. Basically, they realised it sucked :D

Mongoletsi
February 20th, 2009, 02:18 PM
For those of you that probably hate me for arguing that there's a difference between the hard and fast evidence/facts about the 13th Tribe and/or Cylons and the making of assumptions, try this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ockham_razor

Keeping in mind that there's more to it than the simple statement 'all things being equal, the simplest solution is probably the correct one'.

Whilst I applaud you for knowing of Occam's razor sir, I also put it to you that some of your assertions are based upon assumption, not canon. As are many of mine.

And isn't it just frakin great that we're still making - increasingly educated - guesses about stuff even now? I think so!

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Whilst I applaud you for knowing of Occam's razor sir, I also put it to you that some of your assertions are based upon assumption, not canon. As are many of mine.

And isn't it just frakin great that we're still making - increasingly educated - guesses about stuff even now? I think so!

But within this thread, I'm trying my darndest NOT to make any assumptions and to (obviously) keep others from doing the same.

So you know about Occam's Razor, but do you know about the Golden Mean?

madk99
February 20th, 2009, 05:31 PM
I'm not saying the memories contain DNA. What I'm saying is that you have memories of what your body looks like and all of its assorted nuances. I can't tell you what's in my DNA, but I can tell you that I'm a 1/2 Greek/ 1/2 English, 5'10", 200lbs, hazel eyes, dark brown hair scrawney arms. I had mole to the left of my chin that was removed. While my teeth are straight, there's a slight space between the front two. On both my feet the 2nd and 3rd toes bend inward toward each other.

OOOhhhhh. Do you like pisatacio ice cream and long walks along the beach??

Call me at 913 101 5119 ext 147 !!!!!

madk99
February 20th, 2009, 05:52 PM
Guys it's simple. Daniel is Dirk Benedict, the original Starbuck. His daughter is Kara, new Starbuck. Mystery solved.

Then he should have called her "Star-doe"

She is pretty much of a badass, though. Maybe "Starbutch";)

madk99
February 20th, 2009, 06:04 PM
This interview of Kate Vernon says that #Six was not modeled after Ellen.

http://www.accesshollywood.com/dish-...n_video_940001

So what??? Ron Moore said in the podcast for Tigh me up "Ellen is NOT a cylon"

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 06:19 PM
OOOhhhhh. Do you like pisatacio ice cream and long walks along the beach??

Call me at 913 101 5119 ext 147 !!!!!

In your dreams.

madk99
February 20th, 2009, 06:37 PM
Essentially the same and being the same are two different things. The point that I was trying to make is that just because they look the same and have physiologies that are compatible enough for reproduction doesn't mean that a Human and a Cylon are identical beings.

However, being compatible enough to produce viable offspring does define a species. Only members of the same species can reproduce. For all we know, Hera might be a mule!

Coco Pops
February 20th, 2009, 07:10 PM
The writers have stated that the one scene that was used in was a mistake. Basically, they realised it sucked :D


Incorrect: It's been used several times....... When Helo had it off with the Sharon model for instance. they clearly showed it happening then.

HAL2100
February 20th, 2009, 07:28 PM
However, being compatible enough to produce viable offspring does define a species. Only members of the same species can reproduce. For all we know, Hera might be a mule!

I was using species in the general sense to denote that Humans are not Cylons and vise versa. So genus or family might be more appropriate.

Berg417448
February 20th, 2009, 08:13 PM
So what??? Ron Moore said in the podcast for Tigh me up "Ellen is NOT a cylon"

I just listened to that podcast. I didn't hear him say that.

I think Kate Vernon knows her character better than we do. I'll take her word for now.

madk99
February 20th, 2009, 09:46 PM
I just listened to that podcast. I didn't hear him say that.

I think Kate Vernon knows her character better than we do. I'll take her word for now.

Hmmm. I just checked too. You're right. But I know I heard him say that off hand earlier in the shows run. For the life of me I can't remember where now.
Can anyone help me out????

Coco Pops
February 20th, 2009, 09:54 PM
To me Ellen gave me a bad vibe from the get go. I thought she might be like Boomer just waiting for that one moment to be activated......

retiredat44
February 21st, 2009, 05:55 AM
dammit,, thought somone else figured out what else happened in that 40 minutes last night. I watched intently and only thing I saw were the final 5 deciding to go out on their own and start over. Then, we saw a baby die before it was born. OH, yeah, we saw the usual Balter goings ons... and,, oh yeah,,, we saw lot of crew question the ship turned into a Frankenstein with Cylon repair techniques... I expected bigger things..
:p

HAL2100
February 21st, 2009, 03:42 PM
What do you think about starting a thread entitled 'The Hack the Cavil's Thread' wherein we theoretically hack in to them and make them do assorted things both to give them their wish to be a machine and for retribution?

Everytime I hear a song that you can dance to, I keep having this image of Cavil breaking into dance with this bizare expression on his face as he's clueless as to what he's doing, why and of course powerless to stop..

Can't you imagine what it would be like if he was made to dance like this and had no control over it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU2yt6wOoK0

"You're a machine Cavil...that's what machines do..."

Easter Lily
February 22nd, 2009, 05:39 PM
Fantastic episode. Definitely one of the best. Ironic isn't it, Ellen being "The Creator" and all that. I loved the conversation between Ellen and Cavill.
Cavill being a kind of Lucifer... fascinating.

I like that the cylons are the key.

Mongoletsi
February 22nd, 2009, 05:40 PM
But within this thread, I'm trying my darndest NOT to make any assumptions and to (obviously) keep others from doing the same.
Yes, but you're the one who is relying on reading about what's been going on in 4.5. You're making a massive assumption that you are privy to all the nuances that those of us who have been watching it are. I'm assuming otherwise.


So you know about Occam's Razor, but do you know about the Golden Mean?
As in "ratio" or "mean"? The former yes, the latter only in passing. Why?

Mongoletsi
February 23rd, 2009, 03:01 AM
Good! Not that I was going to PM you with details of how to get the latest episodes as I assumed you didn't know.

See? Another incorrect assumption :D

the missing 7
February 23rd, 2009, 05:54 AM
here's the new intro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpnnYbNxLwg

Skydiver
February 23rd, 2009, 06:37 AM
Little reminder folks, please do not mention, discuss or share any information about any illegal downloads.

It's a forbidden topic here.

Hulu, Unbox, ITunes, are all fine, any other sources are not.

snippits on you tube are not an issue, but not the whole episode. it's a no-no

HAL2100
February 23rd, 2009, 02:11 PM
Little reminder folks, please do not mention, discuss or share any information about any illegal downloads.

It's a forbidden topic here.

Hulu, Unbox, ITunes, are all fine, any other sources are not.

snippits on you tube are not an issue, but not the whole episode. it's a no-no

I thought I only mentioned iTunes. I mean there is also that guy standing on the street corner with DVD's hanging from the inside left of his trenchcoat and Rolex's on the right side but that's legit - he showed my his business license that he printed from the internet.

Matt G
February 25th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Little reminder folks, please do not mention, discuss or share any information about any illegal downloads.

It's a forbidden topic here.

Hulu, Unbox, ITunes, are all fine, any other sources are not.

snippits on you tube are not an issue, but not the whole episode. it's a no-no

What about Skyplayer?(run by Sky TV's website, BSG might be on it and if it is, I'll be able to watch ep 16 on that rather than relying on other sources - only recently found out I didn't have to pay extra for it). :)

Pharaoh Atem
March 2nd, 2009, 02:39 AM
:( poor sam

i have to say i know RDM has always said that cavil was the keeper of screats but who knew he knows the whole damn thing. that came as a huge shock to me :o

great way to explain the back story and i didn't realize till i saw this ep that "the five" are the only survivors of the 13th tribe ....only 5

Pharaoh Atem
March 4th, 2009, 05:39 AM
i wonder if there is bodies of the final five on every baseship???

Mongoletsi
March 4th, 2009, 05:58 AM
What about Skyplayer?(run by Sky TV's website, BSG might be on it and if it is, I'll be able to watch ep 16 on that rather than relying on other sources - only recently found out I didn't have to pay extra for it). :)

Okay; anything that is obviously a commercial vernture, either branded by a Network, or clearly affiliated with onesuch, is permitted. It should be immediately obvious whether you're viewing an authorised outlet or not. Not least because official, legal sources will tend (but not always) to carry normal advertisements in the show itself.