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GateWorld
January 10th, 2009, 09:02 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/4111.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 411</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The fleet struggles with the repercussions of their discovery of Earth, and Lee must step up after President Roslin has a breakdown. Tigh discovers the identity of the final Cylon.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Morbius
January 16th, 2009, 06:38 PM
Roslin finally getting her very long over due "comeupance".

that alone made it worth the wait.

Morbo
January 16th, 2009, 06:38 PM
baaahhh ahahahahhaha dee
but also
what?

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 06:53 PM
Wow, that was a quick thread merge.

squirrelking
January 16th, 2009, 06:54 PM
wow I totally did not see that thing about earth coming, but makes sense with the cylons always saying "It all has happened before, it will all happen again"

Skydiver
January 16th, 2009, 07:00 PM
i soo didn't see dee offing herself

but i wonder if she'll be back.

if the planet was a cylon planet it stands to reason that there's a resurrection place there. if dee was one of the 5, she'd resurrect.

a resurrection place could explain kara as well

it wasn't a surprise to see that she was dead. Knew that was gonna happen.

but i wonder if the 5 left this planet, tracking down the other cylons and humans, knowing that earth was gonna be destroyed, but they left behind a fail safe of some sort. a failsafe that a resurrectd dee will know how to activate.

that's why kara was sent back, in a form they'd recognize and trust

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:05 PM
So it wasn't definitively stated she was a toaster, but thats what everyone thinks? I knew the moment that clue with her on the bike was posted that she was the Final Cylon.

The suicide part also makes sense if the prophecy is to be taken into consideration.

Skydiver
January 16th, 2009, 07:06 PM
another theory....theyre ALL cylons.

but there are two kinds, the ones made by a creator, and the ones the cylons made for themselves

the 5 were made by a creator, the 7 are cylon 2.0

walterIsTheMan
January 16th, 2009, 07:07 PM
I realized what Dee was going to do about 30 seconds before she did it, right when Gaeta walked out. Still it's sad to see her go :(

And if Ellen is the 5th, then what the frak is Starbuck?

Skydiver
January 16th, 2009, 07:08 PM
it's not stated that dee is a cylon, just my idea

we'll see how it works

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:08 PM
it's not stated that dee is a cylon, just my idea

we'll see how it works

So we're left hanging?

Damn.

And completely relevant to your idea, Sky...

Dee's first name is a literal translation of

"she who will rise up again."

CKO
January 16th, 2009, 07:10 PM
seems like we just get more questions then answers... *sighs* and yea i'm still confused *shrugs* i didnt see Dee taking her own life... that was a shock

Jeffala
January 16th, 2009, 07:12 PM
Wow.

That's all I've got really. Wow.

I didn't see Dee's demise coming.

And I was shocked to who was the last of the 5.

I wonder what the final five had in common that linked them back on Earth. And I wonder why they were so special among the other residents that allowed them to survive.

MrBojangles
January 16th, 2009, 07:15 PM
another theory....theyre ALL cylons.

but there are two kinds, the ones made by a creator, and the ones the cylons made for themselves

the 5 were made by a creator, the 7 are cylon 2.0

Damn it you beat me to it. I was going to post a thread entitled "I have figured it out!!!1 They're all frakking Cylons!" :(

AncientsRGods
January 16th, 2009, 07:16 PM
Earth was a planet of Cylons?? Oh my, I hope the time line of events will be explained. Does anyone think they know the string of events?

Chev's Ron
January 16th, 2009, 07:16 PM
Well with Ellen being affirmed as the 5th, Kara and possibly Dee, would either be other ancient cylons who went into the same "ressurection project" as the 5, or there is something "spiritual" going on and Kara is the grim reaper incarnate.

I liked how they showed more objects akin to earth as we know it (but at the same time, so did BSG with many other object we use today.) Also, notice how they never showed the moon or the continents as we know them? The Cylons could have come from our Earth (meaning this isn't earth). Or else we are all cylons according to Colonial biological classification... argh, this is so confusing! Yet so good at the same time.

I loved the flashbacks to earth that the 5 had, especially Anders playing All along the watchtower as a song. (further hinting this is our real earth, or takes place after people left our earth for that planet).

Still, some of this is still speculation. I wonder when anyone else will discover who Kara really is?

Lucario
January 16th, 2009, 07:17 PM
What a great episode. What can I say about all the thing reveal in this episode that I didn't real see coming.
I didn't expect Kara to find her viper on earth along with her dog tags. That was actually surprising to me, I can also venture a guess on why she lied to Lee about losing the transmittion. The scene of her burning the body was interesting.
What to say about Dee killing herself that I did not see coming.
The talk scene between Tigh and the Adama was good, it seems that in some ways they came to an understanding.
The 13th tribe was a tribe of Cylons, I have to admit that I had really thought about, although I didn't want to believe it but in all honest it made scene. This tribe took a different road after leaving Kobol. Before I always wonder why. Now I think we know the answer.
The final Cylon, the fifth, Ellen Tigh, I have to admit I was wrong I didn't think it was Tigh wife, well that was shocking to me, I thought it was some one else.
One last question that I wish could be answer. Who the heck nuked Earth?
Was it humans or other Cylons, I guess we will find out later in the season.

TheChosen1
January 16th, 2009, 07:20 PM
another theory....theyre ALL cylons.

but there are two kinds, the ones made by a creator, and the ones the cylons made for themselves

the 5 were made by a creator, the 7 are cylon 2.0


Yeah, when dee cried with jax games in her hand on the beach there when she found it, having a personal flash back, like chief and anders did. She then knew she was a cylon. Kara is also a cylon as we found out. Ellen is a cylon. "This has happened before and will happen again". The 13th tribe were all cyclons. Machine and organic-hybrid cylon's. Obvious blew themselves up. So it leaves me to believe that it is possible that everyone is a cylon perhaps and there really aren't any humans?

TheChosen1

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 07:21 PM
so we are all cylons.

I got to wondering if this is some dream thing, with one or all of them remembering this Starbucks, viper, could, and I stress could have crashed 2000 years ago, given they found in tact bones near the shoreline. But that also doesn't really explain the transponder, unless it was a recent crash, so it probably was. But it is shaping up to look like everyone is a cylon.

Arative
January 16th, 2009, 07:22 PM
I'm not sure what to think. Going to have to watch it the 2nd time around to absorb it all.

I'm sorry to see Dee go. I always liked her character and I was leaning toward her being the 5th.

Speaking of the 5th, whats up with Ellen being the 5th? I mean it was somewhat foreshadowed in the first season. So all the inhabitants of Earth were Cylons? That means they came from Kobol. So did Kobol have its own war between Cylon and Human and the 12 tribes went to the Colonies and the 13th went to Earth? Maybe left over humans from Kobol attacked Earth, the 5 flee to the Colonies, have found that humans once again invented Cylons. So the 5th create the skinjobs? and the cycle begins again?

Not sure what to make of Starbuck? If she was Cylon, they would have detected that when she came back. They were able to tell all the skeletons were Cylon. Since Starbuck came back, does that mean Ellen is somewhere on Earth? When Tigh killed her, she beamed back to Earth and was resurrected? Or are there other Cylon's roaming Earth?

the missing 7
January 16th, 2009, 07:23 PM
I think the question is. Whom was Leoben expecting to be in the viper?

he seemed pretty damn scared

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:24 PM
so we are all cylons.

I got to wondering if this is some dream thing, with one or all of them remembering this Starbucks, viper, could, and I stress could have crashed 2000 years ago, given they found in tact bones near the shoreline. But that also doesn't really explain the transponder, unless it was a recent crash, so it probably was. But it is shaping up to look like everyone is a cylon.

So let me get this straight. Dee is a Cylon. Ellen Tigh is a cylon. 4+2=6 7+6=13.

There are currently 13 known models of toasters. This does not compute. Or rather, this is one major mind****.

Skydiver
January 16th, 2009, 07:26 PM
follow this theory

kara finds her own corpse, destroys it to keep her origin a secret and herself seen as human

the 7 destroyed earth to hide their own origins. they don't want to admit that they're constructs.

there are two kinds of cylons, those made by a creator that are more human like...and in fact, ARE human, and those made by the humans, which are the 12.

5 of those 12 accept and acknowledge what they are. the other 7 believe that they are different from and better than the humans. but they can't be better than those that created them, teh conundrum drove them to kill their creators(the humans...human type cylons) to hide the truth and allow them to continue to be seen as 'better'

the 7 want to find earth to keep thier secret. the 5 settled in with the general humans because they know that the humans are their key to fixing their planet. the 7 don't want earth fixed.

which is why there's a race to and will be a battle for earth.

we've seen that the 4 lived on earth and have memories of its destruction.

i think when ellen said 'we will be reborn' she was talking about a resurrection station located on earth or a nearby planet/moon. i think that's why dee killed herself because if she's reborn, then she's in that resurrection place and can activate it

the events shown in next week's promo, i think will get interrupted when unexpected people show up

not only cavil and his band of merry robots, but the resurrected cylons, or maybe just dee

MrBojangles
January 16th, 2009, 07:27 PM
So let me get this straight. Dee is a Cylon. Ellen Tigh is a cylon. 4+2=6 7+6=13.

There are currently 13 known models of toasters. This does not compute. Or rather, this is one major mind****.

13 colonies... 13 models. Not that much of a stretch.

Skydiver
January 16th, 2009, 07:29 PM
Yeah, when dee cried with jax games in her hand on the beach there when she found it, having a personal flash back, like chief and anders did. She then knew she was a cylon. Kara is also a cylon as we found out. Ellen is a cylon. "This has happened before and will happen again". The 13th tribe were all cyclons. Machine and organic-hybrid cylon's. Obvious blew themselves up. So it leaves me to believe that it is possible that everyone is a cylon perhaps and there really aren't any humans?

TheChosen1
i think those jacks were dee's children's jacks

i think her dinner with lee was goodbye and her enjoying the last time he'd see her as human and not a toaster

Skydiver
January 16th, 2009, 07:29 PM
13 colonies... 13 models. Not that much of a stretch.
in fact, it makes perfect sense

each toaster had 'children' to lead

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:31 PM
in fact, it makes perfect sense

each toaster had 'children' to lead

But didn't Moore say that there weren't going to be any more than 12 cylons? Granted, with the latest mindfrak we've been thrown, I'm not so sure about anything right now. I guess we were all lied to?

the fifth man
January 16th, 2009, 07:32 PM
Wow, great episode. BSG came back after the long hiatus very strong. I have no idea where things are headed right now, and I am fine with that. I'll just enjoy the ride.:)

As for Dee, like most of you, I was shocked. I never thought she would off herself.

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 07:33 PM
This does not compute. Or rather, this is one major mind****.
nailed it here

mycorner2
January 16th, 2009, 07:33 PM
PEOPLE : What did Dee pickup from the sand : multiple little metal thingies..
comprendi... anyone ??
please put them into context ...

MrBojangles
January 16th, 2009, 07:34 PM
I don't think we can really trust anything said about unaired episodes. So far most theories seem to be there to throw us off. I find it annoying, yet at the same time I love it since it gets everyone thinking of crazy possibilities and they go off in wild tangents.

Lucario
January 16th, 2009, 07:35 PM
I honestly think that Dee just off herself because she lost all hope finding Earth as a nuclear wasteland was the last nail for her, and the fact her last night with Lee made her happy, wanting to say with that feeling and not be disappointed again she just took what she thought was the only way out. I could be wrong but that is my thought.

tech100
January 16th, 2009, 07:36 PM
In this episode some of the questions were answered but that leads us with many more.

I am along with others that I didn't see Dee killing herself. I expected Lee to follow Dee in to the quarters.

I was thinking it was Ellen Tigh being the 5th.

I was thinking the same that all of them were Cylons that came from Kobol.

Here is an interesting idea what if the 13 tribes were created by some other alien spieces as an experiment to see what would happen. Then they created there own cylons. (like the movie called the "13th Floor." Just a thought.

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Here is an interesting idea what if the 13 tribes were created by some other alien spieces as an experiment to see what would happen.

Sounds like the plot of the Stargate tv shows.

splintercell56
January 16th, 2009, 07:41 PM
Dee's death was surprising... Is she a cylon, i really don't know.

Ellen is the fifth... wow, that sold the episode right their as my favorite in the entire series. And the fact that she seems to be the leader of them as well. The whole "We will be reborn" comment she told past Tigh was epic.

My guess is that Humans and Cylons are just separate factions of Homo-saipiens. One group believed in one God, the others believed in Multiple Gods. This led to war and conflict.

dekebuck
January 16th, 2009, 07:46 PM
Hi All, first post but I am a HUGE BSG2 fan. I am really loving this new season.

Okay, you all have me thinking. Dee did appear to have some sort of flashback, but not as strong as the "cylons." Right? She was happy then killed herself. Makes no sense right? If as some of you say she did it because she somehow remembered/sensed that she would be resurrected AND (bar with me) that when you are resurrected it's not only you, but you go to this resurrected Earth? Remember, Starbuck the Resurrected saw a beautiful Earth. So, this could explain why Dee was so happy. No? Somehow something like this could tie in - the only way to get to Earth is to die?!?!?!?!

I'm sure they will have more twists and turns for us and frankly this political episode 2 looks silly.

staknhalo
January 16th, 2009, 07:46 PM
Me and a friend have been thinking this up. Feel free to add or debunk what you see fit:


What we saw flashbacks to is our future. It is the begging of the infamous/foretold "all this has happened before and will happen again" prophecy. Humans on Earth advance so far to create resurrection technology AND cylon centurions. The Cylons rebel against the humans and nuke the planet. The 13th tribe is the remains of the human race who leave to find a new planet (eventually landing at Kobol and then spreading out to the colonies). The final five are the only humans who resurrected at the original resurrection hubs on earth before all was (thought to be) destroyed. They then leave to find the rest of the humans, eventually finding them in the colonies and joining their society. The resurrection process has side effects (long age or something, haven't figured this out yet). Now the cycle starts anew on the colonies. But this time there are slight variations. The Cylons are the ones who create resurrection technology. The humans are nuked in their timeline quicker than they were on Earth. And now they leave in search of a new home landing on Earth (now playing the part of Kobol) and then they spread out to start the second colonies. When Starbuck crashed on Earth, she resurrected at one of the Earth resurrection hubs. The viper, I'm not to sure of (she found a Viper factory :P ? )

EDIT: The original Earth resurrection technology was still in development, and the final five all were working on the project, hence why they were the only ones to resurrect.

Edit 2: There is a gene marker or something in the final five (which they all saw they had maybe and discovered when they were creating the resurrection tech?) which Starbuck also possesses (not necessarily artificial, along the lines of how certain people are immune to certain diseases while others aren't. This thing is just a lot rarer.) . Either through a fluke or destiny. Which is why they are the only ones to resurrect on Earth's resurrection hub.

Edit 3: The blood of the skin jobs is more like the blood of the original humans due to humans evolving and/or the skin jobs resurrection technology maybe? That is why they think earth was populated with cylons?

And that's all I have :)

dekebuck
January 16th, 2009, 07:47 PM
One more. Maybe this Dead Earth is some kind of giant resurrection "channel" and resurrects everything including itself?

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:52 PM
Just curious, but how did Kara take Anders being a Cylon? Or was it even mentioned at all?

Tighis da man
January 16th, 2009, 07:52 PM
One thing that realy stood out to me was how Leoben reacted to seeing Kera's dead body in the viper. Almost like he was thinking, oh **** how did she reserect? and that everything he thought he knew about her was now wrong.

bfldworker
January 16th, 2009, 07:54 PM
Before I start, I have to say this. I have read every leak, spoiler and what not that has come from the general direction of Ron Moore. With that said.


I don't think that is earth. For the simple fact that in 4x10 and 4x11 there were no bodies of land that was identifiable from space. At least from my perspective. Now granted that did look like the Brookland bridge. But who knows.

WOW Dualla kills herself. I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING! That took me off guard.

Starbuck finding herself (Literally) I did feel I would see, but honestly her corpse looked like it was there for eons, however if you want to get scientific I can see how she could be considered "The harbinger of death". If she showed up from the future, the Space Time rift could cause a massive nuclear blast if it happened in orbit or in the planets atmosphere.

It was disturbing seeing crew of Galactica knocking the crap out of each other. And it was also very disturbing seeing Adama losing it again. But, eh we all hit rock bottom.

There is one question however. With Kara finding herself, does that mean she is a Cylon? If Ellen is a Cylon and Kara is a Cylon then there are 13 Cylons. I am confused!

Lantien84
January 16th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Well I've just gone over everything that has transpired in this episode and I still have no idea what is going on. But one thing is for certain, the original colonial cylons are not directly related to the earth "cylons", the newer skin jobs.... probably. This is frustrating. We got way more questions then answers. I have a long standing theory that the human cylons are basically just that, human. Granted not normal humans; genetically tweaked and cybernetically enhanced. And the whole downloading/immortality thing is b.s.. More than likely when a human cylon dies, they really do die, but their memories are downloaded into a clone. Even though the clone has the same memories from the other cylon it's still not the same person. Their immortality is a lie. So if the human "clyons" originated on earth, how the hell do they fit in with and or get mixed up with the toasters? What the frack is going?!:confused:anybody think it a tad bit silly that the earth centurions looked exactly like the cylon centurions? Given they only found a head they could have spent a little bit more making the prop look a little bit more unique.

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 07:59 PM
here is one question however. With Kara finding herself, does that mean she is a Cylon? If Ellen is a Cylon and Kara is a Cylon then there are 13 Cylons. I am confused!

Well, Dualla supposedly had flashbacks, so that probably meant she was a Cylon. Ellen Tigh is a cylon. Kara Thrace is probably a Cylon.

As I said, this episode was a major mindfrak. It would help though if someone posted a clear concise review, as I have to wait until tomorrow to see it. :(

the fifth man
January 16th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Well, Dualla supposedly had flashbacks, so that probably meant she was a Cylon. Ellen Tigh is a cylon. Kara Thrace is probably a Cylon.

As I said, this episode was a major mindfrak. It would help though if someone posted a clear concise review, as I have to wait until tomorrow to see it. :(

Yep, definitely a mindfrak.:) Hopefully we will get more answers than new questions as these final 9 episodes unfold.

rarocks24
January 16th, 2009, 08:07 PM
In regards to Dee...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0565973/

I wonder

Arative
January 16th, 2009, 08:11 PM
In regards to Dee...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0565973/

I wonder



she could just be listed in the credits and that's why it is showing up in IMBD. Regarding her flashbacks, I don't think she had any. I think its just believing in Earth and the Old man was all she had and that was taken from her, so it broke her. Earth was pretty much all the fleet had.

splintercell56
January 16th, 2009, 08:12 PM
Producers could have had her name put on all the credits they submitted.

Chev's Ron
January 16th, 2009, 08:13 PM
Starbuck finding herself (Literally) I did feel I would see, but honestly her corpse looked like it was there for eons, however if you want to get scientific I can see how she could be considered "The harbinger of death". If she showed up from the future, the Space Time rift could cause a massive nuclear blast if it happened in orbit or in the planets atmosphere.

Actually from all the CSI shows that I have been watching, a corpse in the open air is usually decayed to the bone within a year, Kara's bones were showing in a few places, and the rotting fit the timeline between her entering the storm and landing back on "earth".

LoneStar1836
January 16th, 2009, 08:15 PM
I honestly think that Dee just off herself because she lost all hope finding Earth as a nuclear wasteland was the last nail for her, and the fact her last night with Lee made her happy, wanting to say with that feeling and not be disappointed again she just took what she thought was the only way out. I could be wrong but that is my thought.
I'm going with that too, and am not even going to try to speculate on the rest of the ep or where the series is going. :S I'm just along for the ride at this point.

CKO
January 16th, 2009, 08:16 PM
yes... mind frak indeed.

Trek_Girl42
January 16th, 2009, 08:19 PM
HOLY FRAK! I did not see Dee offing herself. Crap. And I had really been liking her again. but her having the "previously on Battlestar Galactica" should have been a sign.....

I'm still standing by my theory that Zak is the final cylon, but before tonight I had never considered Dee much of a possibility, now.....I'm wondering. If she's been conscious this whole time, and it has been her personal goal to reunite the fleet with her (or their) original people, and SHE didn't expect to find them all gone, well. That would explain things.

Or it could just be that it was her character's turn to be the victim of showing the toll for all the characters.

Gods I love this show.

Also, that ending just confirmed for me that Ellen Tigh is NOT the final cylon. No way.

foxhound22
January 16th, 2009, 08:19 PM
Didn't they mention once, I think in season 2, about the 12 lords of kobol fighting with "the one that shall never be mentioned?" So if that is the case, wouldnt there stand to say that there might be a 13th being out there that is a major player?

ToasterOnFire
January 16th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Jeez, how many times did I say "wtf?!" to the TV tonight?

-digging up the centurion head
-Everyone on Earth was a cylon?!
-Starbuck's body
-Dee shot herself, she SHOT HERSELF.
-Oh hi there, Ellen.

Welcome back BSG, you were missed. :)

Trek_Girl42
January 16th, 2009, 08:22 PM
Jeez, how many times did I say "wtf?!" to the TV tonight?

-digging up the centurion head
-Everyone on Earth was a cylon?!
-Starbuck's body
-Dee shot herself, she SHOT HERSELF.
-Oh hi there, Ellen.

Welcome back BSG, you were missed. :)
Oh god I know. I was on the edge of my rocking chair the whole time. :D

Arative
January 16th, 2009, 08:26 PM
Jeez, how many times did I say "wtf?!" to the TV tonight?

-digging up the centurion head
-Everyone on Earth was a cylon?!
-Starbuck's body
-Dee shot herself, she SHOT HERSELF.
-Oh hi there, Ellen.

Welcome back BSG, you were missed. :)

I think I said wtf about 10 times or so.

kharn the betrayer
January 16th, 2009, 08:29 PM
Oh god I know. I was on the edge of my rocking chair the whole time. :D

same here though replace seat with bed since I watch TV in my bedroom

Anakin Flair
January 16th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Didn't they mention once, I think in season 2, about the 12 lords of kobol fighting with "the one that shall never be mentioned?" So if that is the case, wouldnt there stand to say that there might be a 13th being out there that is a major player?


So.... the 12 Lords of Kobol were fighting Voldemort?


Sorry, couldn't resist.

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 08:31 PM
Just curious, but how did Kara take Anders being a Cylon? Or was it even mentioned at all?

that part of the story the writers really don't care about, it is like so many other revelations on the show that all too often are quickly accepted,by the characters because the writers dont want to deal with that aspect.

Trek_Girl42
January 16th, 2009, 08:32 PM
same here though replace seat with bed since I watch TV in my bedroomHaha. I had to replace couch with rocking chair because my sister threw up on the couch an hour before the show started. :S:P

LoneStar1836
January 16th, 2009, 08:34 PM
I found Leoben's reaction to discovery of the dead Kara interesting. It seemed to freak him out. Obviously not what he was expecting. And that he doesn't know what to make of the living one.

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 08:35 PM
Well, Dualla supposedly had flashbacks, :(

did thta happen or was it just suggested in the thread? I don't rmember seeing it only her being crushed by the find.

Arative
January 16th, 2009, 08:38 PM
As I sit here watching the second airing. I'm trying to get the timeline in place.

3600 years ago, there was the exodus from Kobol according to Pythia.
2000 years ago, Earth was nuked.
3 years ago, the Colonies were nuked.

Does that mean Tigh, Ellen, Anders, Tory and Tyrol have been around 2000 years? Have the other 7 models been around that long? I mean according to everything I've seen in the show, the 7 models have only been around since after the Cylon war 40 years.

So much confusion going on right now.
Did the 5 leave Earth after it was nuked for the Colonies, only to find that cylons had been invented and enslaved there? Were they complicit in the Cylon rebellion 40 years ago and creating the 7 skinjobs that came back and nuked the Colonies?

If all this has happened before and all of it will happen again. Did human life start on Kobol, they invent Cylons. Cylons rebel, the war destroys Kobol, humans and Cylon's go their separate ways, to the colonies and to Earth. They both forget about their past, Cylons on Earth invent robots, they rebel, nuke the planet, some escape to the colonies. Colonies invent Cylons, Cylons rebel, have war come back and nuke the colonies, some escape to Earth?

I don't know, but as someone posted, its one big mindfrak.

LoneStar1836
January 16th, 2009, 08:39 PM
did thta happen or was it just suggested in the thread? I don't rmember seeing it only her being crushed by the find.
There wasn't. It's open to interpretation and speculation I suppose, but there was no actual flashback scene like with the Chief.

Or I didn't see one and I'm watching it again now.

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 08:45 PM
Moby Dick, Ihave never read the book, but I remember thinking of Tigh as Capn Ahab on new captica, and I just put 2 and 2 together on Gaeta's peg leg.

Food for thought/

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 08:49 PM
There wasn't. It's open to interpretation and speculation I suppose, but there was no actual flashback scene like with the Chief.

Or I didn't see one and I'm watching it again now.

Me too, I guess someone read too much into her being crushed by finding the jacks, though the significance was probably that she come to the realization the dream was over, not that she remembered something.

On a related note anyone else notice that 2000 year old rubber ball next to the jacks?

Finger13
January 16th, 2009, 08:49 PM
Ugh, this sounds like an amazing episode. I can't believe that I missed it on Space, never even thought of it. I hope they'll be replaying it soon, {mod snip}

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Ugh, this sounds like an amazing episode. I can't believe that I missed it on Space, never even thought of it. I hope they'll be replaying it soon, {mod snip}.

Its ok It should have been 2 hours, unless of course they did that to screw with out heads.

LoneStar1836
January 16th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Me too, I guess someone read too much into her being crushed by finding the jacks, though the significance was probably that she come to the realization the dream was over, not that she remembered something.

On a related note anyone else notice that 2000 year old rubber ball next to the jacks?That's how I'm interpreting it.


And yeah I noticed the rubber ball. That's some industrial strength rubber that evidently isn't biodegrading anytime soon. lol.

bfldworker
January 16th, 2009, 09:11 PM
Now that I have had more time to absorb this episode. I have to agree, This episode was written to be a "mind Frak". This episode made more questions then answers. I wanna know how did Kara come back now. I also want to know this. How the hell did the current Cylon race know about the 5 from "Earth"???? Many questions, too many to ask.

tech100
January 16th, 2009, 09:13 PM
I rewatched the episode.

I noticed when Dee was on the Raptor heading back to Galatica she was saying (I think) "hold on Dee" or something like that, then she just snapped. She tells Geta just before that she just wants to hold on to that moment (happeness). I don't think she is a Cylon.

The scene with Kara burning the body was just very weird.

DigiFluid
January 16th, 2009, 09:20 PM
Kobol has 12 tribes of man, who get into some as-yet-undescribed cataclysmic conflict that results in the exodus from that world of 12 in one direction and a 13th in the other (which has now turned out to be Cylon).

Earth is founded by the "Cylon" tribe, who go on to create mechanoid creations. At some point, there's an unexplained conflict which destroys the world and (seemingly) results in an exodus of its people (at least five of whom end up at: )

Caprica! et al have 12 tribes. They create a 13th tribe in the Cylons, the conflict with whom is cataclysmic and results in another exodus--the Cylons settling their own homeworld in the first war, and humanity setting off in another direction to find a new home.



"All this has happened before, and will happen again" indeed. I wonder if humanity on Kobol created Cylons there too. Maybe that's what caused the first (known) exodus, war between the twelve tribes of man and the Cylon "tribe".

The Cylons seem to be intimately acquainted with 'happened before/again'. Is it possible that the reason the Five survivors of the Earth Destruction sought out the Colonies, was to try to break the cycle?




I'm still at a total loss to explain Starbuck though. Those are her dogtags, with the ring that Anders gave her on New Caprica. How the heck did it end up on Earth, and then sit there for 2000 years (or at least long enough that the pilot in the suit is just a skeleton)?

Sci-Fi
January 16th, 2009, 09:21 PM
In the minisodes, Tigh blamed Gaeta for mis-reading the alignment of the planets/stars for their position. It's possible that wasn't Earth but a colony or skinjob cylon planet, since it was Gaeta again that was doing the verification. There are several star systems close by with possible habitable planets (hope they don't do another ST reference by picking Wolf 359) that are only 4-16 light years away...close enough that the 'clues' to Earth would approx match.

chris777
January 16th, 2009, 09:28 PM
The really messed up thing is that the fact that they wrote most of this on the fly really stands out(I am referring to the whole series, and not just this episode), and much like many other Sci Fi shows they have placed waaaaaaaaay too many issues on the table to properly address, in 9 episodes.

I remember when I First noticed this, and mentioned it in part, when I stated that the cylon plan that was mentioned in every episode for the first 3 seasons never came about or had been revealed, and joked that they really didn't have one like the writers. Then coincidentally (or conveniently) they dropped it from the opening. I also noticed they are planning another flashback movie called the plan, and the same problem also applies to it, they raise some facinating issues, but never dig much deeper than a surface level investigation into them.
I noticed today that during the marathon, as well as the opener, that it would seem that the writers only focus on the emotional conflicts, and issues that interest them, leaving the rest up in the air, its like the new caprica storyline, they left so many issues, and ideas unexplored, you could do a whole series just on that, if one were so inclined.

I guess that's their prerogative, but After watching the 10 things we should know clip show I am left thinking that the vast majority of the series was written off the cuff from basic plot lines, and they are making it up as the Go along.

Take Cylon numbering for example, I suspect that If they had originally planned the final 5 storyline from the beginning of the series, then they would have numbered them accordingly, which still could work with them at the tail end , but with number 8 being after the first 6, it throws that notion out the door as well and leads me to the conclusion the original numbering was arbitrary. Which leads me back to my assertation, that thye make it up as they go, in that a key plot point mentioned for 3 seasons (the "plan") will not be addressed, until AFTER, the series has effectively ended.

staknhalo
January 16th, 2009, 10:03 PM
The really messed up thing is that the fact that they wrote most of this on the fly really stands out(I am referring to the whole series, and not just this episode), and much like many other Sci Fi shows they have placed waaaaaaaaay too many issues on the table to properly address, in 9 episodes.

I remember when I First noticed this, and mentioned it in part, when I stated that the cylon plan that was mentioned in every episode for the first 3 seasons never came about or had been revealed, and joked that they really didn't have one like the writers. Then coincidentally (or conveniently) they dropped it from the opening. I also noticed they are planning another flashback movie called the plan, and the same problem also applies to it, they raise some facinating issues, but never dig much deeper than a surface level investigation into them.
I noticed today that during the marathon, as well as the opener, that it would seem that the writers only focus on the emotional conflicts, and issues that interest them, leaving the rest up in the air, its like the new caprica storyline, they left so many issues, and ideas unexplored, you could do a whole series just on that, if one were so inclined.

I guess that's their prerogative, but After watching the 10 things we should know clip show I am left thinking that the vast majority of the series was written off the cuff from basic plot lines, and they are making it up as the Go along.

Take Cylon numbering for example, I suspect that If they had originally planned the final 5 storyline from the beginning of the series, then they would have numbered them accordingly, which still could work with them at the tail end , but with number 8 being after the first 6, it throws that notion out the door as well and leads me to the conclusion the original numbering was arbitrary. Which leads me back to my assertation, that thye make it up as they go, in that a key plot point mentioned for 3 seasons (the "plan") will not be addressed, until AFTER, the series has effectively ended.

I unfortunately agree :/

hoof
January 16th, 2009, 11:15 PM
I'm convinced Ellen is the 5th. There are two reasons for this:

1) RDM seems interested in a story much bigger than "who's the 5th". Think about it, if the last 9 episodes didn't have that reveal until the end, then that becomes the main theme for the rest of the show. By outing the 5th, like finding Earth mid-season, RDM now can finish the real meat of the story, and explain everything that's going on, with stories much more profound than "guess the 5th cylon".

2) If you recall, the writer's strike occurred just after finishing this script (for this episode). The next upcoming episode was written and filmed many months later. There was a very real chance of the last 9 episodes not ever being finished, depending on how the strike went. If so, then RDM would have wanted the option to wrap up many things by the end of the 11th episode just in case. Thus finding earth and revealing the 5th would have been up there. Thus the 5th reveal.

With that in mind, and with the finding earth + outing the 5th part done, we now are left with the mystery of what's really going on in this universe.

For a long time I was of the belief that everyone was a cylon. Now I'm not so sure (because it's obvious now, and RDM doesn't do much obvious stuff in this series). My pet theory is that the final 5 are much, much older than a few thousand years. The events in the flashbacks might have been 2000 years ago, but I suspect these 5 have been going through these loops for a long, long time (with 3 known armageddons in the recent past). In true BSG fashion, it'll likely be a sad story, with some core meaning to why they bounce back and forth from planet to planet, engineering the cylons to eventually rise up and nuke the civilization.

There is a videogame called "Mass Effect" which has a similar plotline. Essentially, a group of creatures called the Reapers created a bunch of transportation nexuses, along with a big one called the "Citadel", and left it abandoned for burgening civilizations to find and use. The idea was that they couldn't stop life from reaching advanced tech (which posed a threat), so what they do is help them along, let them become dependant on their "precursor" artifacts, then come back periodically (every 50,000 years in that game's case) to wipe out advanced civilization. As of the timeline of the game, the hero endeavors to prevent the latest cycle from completing its course.

The idea in the BSG universe would be that these 5 "cylons" are from an ancient civilization whose purpose is to wipe out the descendants of a constructed species, the Cylons (probably to prevent some expected horror, or maybe revenge, or maybe to protect some yet unseen system contain the rest of their people). Unfortunately, due to human (and cylon) nature, this cannot be done by building up an empire and waging regular genocide, because such an empire would itself become a problem, splinter, revolt, etc. So instead, they infiltrate the civilizations they can find, advance the tech to build up constructs, who then wipe out the civilization, then each other. However, like in the current BSG universe, the remanents of the constructs would form their own civilization and grow anew, thus the need to repeat the cycle again, and again. Keep in mind, without a large organization (like an empire), it would be difficult for the 5 to "finish off" the civilizations completely, as each would likely spawn a RTF and go hide somewhere for a few thousand years (rebuilding themselves). The best they can do is do the proverbial "bomb them into the stone-age" and prepare for the next cycle.

At least that's my current theory on what's happening. Whatever the real story is, it'll be something profound, something that transcends a few cycles, something much more profound than who is the 5th cylon or who is really a cylon at all.

ZeosPantera
January 16th, 2009, 11:41 PM
I have only one question.. Where is the 6 that Saul knocked up? and there Full blood cylon baby? It probably hasnt been 9 months but I think she should be showing still and It kinda feels like an important part of the show.

Oh. yeah I think the whole world went "holy ****" when Dee squeezed one off.

g.o.d
January 16th, 2009, 11:54 PM
damn, 30 minutes

chwawa2369
January 17th, 2009, 12:13 AM
I think ellen and the 6 model are one and the same.

g.o.d
January 17th, 2009, 01:13 AM
that was the best thing I've ever seen

jbreaken
January 17th, 2009, 01:47 AM
I think ellen and the 6 model are one and the same.


I agree...Ellen is just 6 as a grown up. Leaving room for Starbuck to be #7 and Dee to be the final 5th...

g.o.d
January 17th, 2009, 01:56 AM
it's amazing that despite this episode some people will always say the Fifth cylon is not Ellen Tigh.


guys, Ellen Tigh is the fifth cylon, she's always been the fifth cylon. And she's responsible for the ressurection technology and most likely she created the 'Significant Seven models.

I tell you this. Once upon a time, there was WGA strike. The last episode they made before that strike was "Sometimes a great notion" and the last thing they did in that episode before WGA strike was the revelation of the fifth, which was that scene with Saul and his wife, Ellen, who's the fifth cylon. It's really her, she's the fifth. She's one of the final five cylons. She's the fifth cylon. ;) :D oh, I forgot to mention that Ellen Tigh is the fifth cylon

Aussie_86
January 17th, 2009, 02:09 AM
Kobol has 12 tribes of man, who get into some as-yet-undescribed cataclysmic conflict that results in the exodus from that world of 12 in one direction and a 13th in the other (which has now turned out to be Cylon).

Earth is founded by the "Cylon" tribe, who go on to create mechanoid creations. At some point, there's an unexplained conflict which destroys the world and (seemingly) results in an exodus of its people (at least five of whom end up at: )

Caprica! et al have 12 tribes. They create a 13th tribe in the Cylons, the conflict with whom is cataclysmic and results in another exodus--the Cylons settling their own homeworld in the first war, and humanity setting off in another direction to find a new home.



"All this has happened before, and will happen again" indeed. I wonder if humanity on Kobol created Cylons there too. Maybe that's what caused the first (known) exodus, war between the twelve tribes of man and the Cylon "tribe".

The Cylons seem to be intimately acquainted with 'happened before/again'. Is it possible that the reason the Five survivors of the Earth Destruction sought out the Colonies, was to try to break the cycle?




I'm still at a total loss to explain Starbuck though. Those are her dogtags, with the ring that Anders gave her on New Caprica. How the heck did it end up on Earth, and then sit there for 2000 years (or at least long enough that the pilot in the suit is just a skeleton)?

I reckon starbuck is from a previous cycle... i.e, in ascending order of age (of their civilization), i reckon it goes S7 Cylons, FF Cylons, Humanity, Starbuck.

huntress
January 17th, 2009, 02:43 AM
I just saw the episode. Frak .....just FRAK. God that was so very dark. How could I forget the power of BSG to kick one thoroughly in the guts. This was almost too much to bear. I just cried and now I am sitting here trying to comprehend what just happened:

Kara is dead yet here she is alive or.... What the frak..... So Kara was burning herself which is just too frakked up to even comprehend. What the frak is she??????
The finale five lived on Earth 2000 years ago
Laura is burning the Pythian prophecies and refuses her treatments, doesn't want to be touched by Bill because she hates herself for heaving led them all to this tomb
The whole scene between Bill and Laura just broke my heart. She is so full of self loathing
Dee ...dear God, no. I felt that something was seriously wrong but this....Rest in Peace.
Bill is drunk as a skunk but at least sort of made up with Saul
To watch the whole ship implode on itself was so unbelievably sad.
The 13th tribe were Cylons, the Cylons ARE humans, they were us....which makes my head just spin and talk about a kicker of a revelation
The fact that Ellen is or was the fifth was suddenly so unimportant. Their love endured over time and space and those final five were not made ....they were reborn

I really have to let this sink in. My head is spinning and this is just the first episode of ten? Frak me. The show will kill me.

Osiris
January 17th, 2009, 03:55 AM
I don't know if we've watched the same episode but it's pretty clear that Ellen is the 5th cylon.

Dee didn't have a flashback and is not a cylon (as much as I wanted her to be one). She just lost it like most of the crew.

g.o.d
January 17th, 2009, 03:56 AM
Ron confirmed the fifth is Ellen

rarocks24
January 17th, 2009, 03:57 AM
In the minisodes, Tigh blamed Gaeta for mis-reading the alignment of the planets/stars for their position. It's possible that wasn't Earth but a colony or skinjob cylon planet, since it was Gaeta again that was doing the verification. There are several star systems close by with possible habitable planets (hope they don't do another ST reference by picking Wolf 359) that are only 4-16 light years away...close enough that the 'clues' to Earth would approx match.

As far as I remember, Wolf 359 was just open space.

Osiris
January 17th, 2009, 04:00 AM
Ron confirmed the fifth is Ellen

And Kandyse confirmed she's dead for good:
http://scifiwire.com/2009/01/dualla-speaks-about-last-nights-battlestar-episode.php

smortt
January 17th, 2009, 04:11 AM
So, are we cylons???

(trying to connect a USB to my hand)

Skydiver
January 17th, 2009, 05:15 AM
But didn't Moore say that there weren't going to be any more than 12 cylons? Granted, with the latest mindfrak we've been thrown, I'm not so sure about anything right now. I guess we were all lied to?

Do we REALLY have more than 12? Just because tigh says ellen is a cylon, is she really? or is he just seeing cylons everywhere?


PEOPLE : What did Dee pickup from the sand : multiple little metal thingies..
comprendi... anyone ??
please put them into context ...

Jacks. An old children's game where you bounce the ball, pick up the jacks and....there's more, but they're children's toys. what they were doing on the sand we'll never know, cause balls don't bounce well on sand :)


One thing that realy stood out to me was how Leoben reacted to seeing Kera's dead body in the viper. Almost like he was thinking, oh **** how did she reserect? and that everything he thought he knew about her was now wrong.
leobhan was scared spitless by kara. either he knows something that she doesn't or her mere existence is massively freaking him out.

As I sit here watching the second airing. I'm trying to get the timeline in place.

3600 years ago, there was the exodus from Kobol according to Pythia.
2000 years ago, Earth was nuked.
3 years ago, the Colonies were nuked.

Does that mean Tigh, Ellen, Anders, Tory and Tyrol have been around 2000 years? Have the other 7 models been around that long? I mean according to everything I've seen in the show, the 7 models have only been around since after the Cylon war 40 years.

So much confusion going on right now.
Did the 5 leave Earth after it was nuked for the Colonies, only to find that cylons had been invented and enslaved there? Were they complicit in the Cylon rebellion 40 years ago and creating the 7 skinjobs that came back and nuked the Colonies?

If all this has happened before and all of it will happen again. Did human life start on Kobol, they invent Cylons. Cylons rebel, the war destroys Kobol, humans and Cylon's go their separate ways, to the colonies and to Earth. They both forget about their past, Cylons on Earth invent robots, they rebel, nuke the planet, some escape to the colonies. Colonies invent Cylons, Cylons rebel, have war come back and nuke the colonies, some escape to Earth?

I don't know, but as someone posted, its one big mindfrak.

what if


earth was nuked by the 7. the five fled, perhaps with survivors, perhaps they just fled. they found hte rest of thier kind, the other 12 colonies and immersed themselves with them, because they knew that the 7 would eventually find them and murder them liek they did the others. they have been essentially sleeper agents, waiting to act when/if the 7 find and attack the humans


I rewatched the episode.

I noticed when Dee was on the Raptor heading back to Galatica she was saying (I think) "hold on Dee" or something like that, then she just snapped. She tells Geta just before that she just wants to hold on to that moment (happeness). I don't think she is a Cylon.

The scene with Kara burning the body was just very weird.
kara had to. she has to keep her secret. and that body would immediately get her tossed in the brig. she's denying what she might/could be. and doesn't want anyone to know the truth.

will she act against leobhan? or will he keep her secret as well?

g.o.d
January 17th, 2009, 05:35 AM
Do we REALLY have more than 12? Just because tigh says ellen is a cylon, is she really? or is he just seeing cylons everywhere?


Ron said Ellen is teh fifth cylon (http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html)

rarocks24
January 17th, 2009, 05:36 AM
Do we REALLY have more than 12? Just because tigh says ellen is a cylon, is she really? or is he just seeing cylons everywhere?

RDM confirmed Ellen is a cylon. But then, Kara's body is the most disturbing part. As I said, its a major mindfrak.


Jacks. An old children's game where you bounce the ball, pick up the jacks and....there's more, but they're children's toys. what they were doing on the sand we'll never know, cause balls don't bounce well on sand :)

Well, we saw the area as it looked like 2000 years ago. Looked like a Farmer's Market near some sort of college.


leobhan was scared spitless by kara. either he knows something that she doesn't or her mere existence is massively freaking him out.

Considering his shock, I'd say the latter.


earth was nuked by the 7. the five fled, perhaps with survivors, perhaps they just fled. they found hte rest of thier kind, the other 12 colonies and immersed themselves with them, because they knew that the 7 would eventually find them and murder them liek they did the others. they have been essentially sleeper agents, waiting to act when/if the 7 find and attack the humans

The timeline currently rules against that. However, it seems as if they were betrayed. The attacks were unexpected to say the least.


kara had to. she has to keep her secret. and that body would immediately get her tossed in the brig. she's denying what she might/could be. and doesn't want anyone to know the truth.

I'm not so sure. Everyone thinks she's a Toaster, or something, anyways. It wouldn't really come as much of a shock.


will she act against leobhan? or will he keep her secret as well?

I have no idea. But he seemed genuinely horrified of Kara.

Corona
January 17th, 2009, 05:41 AM
There never was an Earth year established for BSG, was there?

I also called the ball as what, covered in oilsand to preserve it?

I was getting my fill of guns to heads with Adamas play. I get it. There is a tremendous amount of depression in the fleet right now. Keep people busy. Let them see Earth just to get off the ship. Were there no forests or jungles left anywhere.

If the Final 5 were seperate, where is their resurection 'ship'? If it wasn't destroyed, then Ellen is around somewhere.

I have a feeling they end up on Caprica when all is said and done, completing the endless circle.

rarocks24
January 17th, 2009, 05:44 AM
There never was an Earth year established for BSG, was there?

I also called the ball as what, covered in oilsand to preserve it?

I was getting my fill of guns to heads with Adamas play. I get it. There is a tremendous amount of depression in the fleet right now. Keep people busy. Let them see Earth just to get off the ship. Were there no forests or jungles left anywhere.

If the Final 5 were seperate, where is their resurection 'ship'? If it wasn't destroyed, then Ellen is around somewhere.

I have a feeling they end up on Caprica when all is said and done, completing the endless circle.

Be forewarned when you click.

There are pictures of Six and Baltar standing amongst a crowd in Times Square, New York.

Sue_Jackson
January 17th, 2009, 05:51 AM
AAAAAHHHHH!!!!!! :eek: This show drives me nuts! :S Dee!!! Shoots herself??? OMG!! Poor Lee. :( I was sooo shocked when she shot herself. Okay. That makes absolutely no sense. :ronon:

And......

Who is the final cylon??? I was so sure that is was Kara. How else do you explained that she is back from being killed in that crash?

But....now Tigh says that Ellen is the final cylon???

I'm so frakkin' confused. :S Is possible that there could two more cylons left to be discovered? :tealcanime49:

They keep saying we will know everything. But....now I have more questions then ever. :beckettanime14:

jollyrogue
January 17th, 2009, 05:53 AM
awesome and surprising episode :P

chwawa2369's post about ellen and #6 being the same could explain how tigh was seeing Ellen whenever he was in the cell with the imprisoned #6

When i saw the dug up centurion though i immediately thought it looked like the centurions from the old BSG series but i can't be sure.

Zamboni
January 17th, 2009, 05:54 AM
So... Dee would rather shoot herself than doing it with Lee again eh?

Guess we know why their marriage failed.

Sue_Jackson
January 17th, 2009, 05:59 AM
another theory....theyre ALL cylons.

but there are two kinds, the ones made by a creator, and the ones the cylons made for themselves

the 5 were made by a creator, the 7 are cylon 2.0

Omigosh!!! That's I'm thinking! :eek: That would be the ultimate twist EVER!

What IF they are ALL cylons??? That would definitely explain a LOT of things.

Bicketybam
January 17th, 2009, 06:06 AM
They followed the signal from Kara's new ship to the signal from Kara's old ship. The question of "Is it really earth?" is still valid, especially if as some are saying, that Gaeta may have got the stars alignments wrong.

Earth or not earth, what I really want to know is.. Who nuked it?

Who are the enemies of THAT planets inhabitants and where are they now?

rarocks24
January 17th, 2009, 06:08 AM
So... Dee would rather shoot herself than doing it with Lee again eh?

Guess we know why their marriage failed.

Actually, and I'm being completely facetious when I say this, but:

I guess Apollo is just awful in the sack. Which would explain why she married Sam. She loves Apollo but he's not good in the bed, so has Anders for her sexual frustrations. She sure treats Anders that way.

Rac80
January 17th, 2009, 06:11 AM
HOLY FRAK! I did not see Dee offing herself. Crap. And I had really been liking her again. but her having the "previously on Battlestar Galactica" should have been a sign.....

I'm still standing by my theory that Zak is the final cylon, but before tonight I had never considered Dee much of a possibility, now.....I'm wondering. If she's been conscious this whole time, and it has been her personal goal to reunite the fleet with her (or their) original people, and SHE didn't expect to find them all gone, well. That would explain things.

Or it could just be that it was her character's turn to be the victim of showing the toll for all the characters.

Gods I love this show.

Also, that ending just confirmed for me that Ellen Tigh is NOT the final cylon. No way.
It was a confusing and fascinating ep wasn't it? the suicide got me (men use guns to kill themselves, women usually don't) but it was heartbreaking too, Dee gave up.


Didn't they mention once, I think in season 2, about the 12 lords of kobol fighting with "the one that shall never be mentioned?" So if that is the case, wouldnt there stand to say that there might be a 13th being out there that is a major player?
Interesting... I have wondered about that too.

awesome and surprising episode :P

chwawa2369's post about ellen and #6 being the same could explain how tigh was seeing Ellen whenever he was in the cell with the imprisoned #6

When i saw the dug up centurion though i immediately thought it looked like the centurions from the old BSG series but i can't be sure.

That's how it appeared to me too.

My theory... there are no humans left except starbuck (and she is a clone), the cylons killed all humans ages ago and are trying to re-create humans, then they keep detroying them selves, over and over again.

ToasterOnFire
January 17th, 2009, 06:13 AM
I'm also on the "everyone's a cylon" bandwagon, but that implies that somewhere in the passing of all the millennia the cylons forgot that they were cylons?

Dee's suicide was such a shocker. When she started getting so much screentime I assumed she was either going to be the 5th or that she was going to be killed, not that she was going to pull the trigger. It was so interesting that she went to Lee first, almost to confirm that he would be okay without her. And then she went on that date to have her one final happy moment before... Wow, just wow.

Roslin burning the scripture and crying was such a great scene too.

And the show implying that Starbuck was the 5th and then pulling the rug out and having it be Ellen instead, HA!

g.o.d
January 17th, 2009, 06:23 AM
Just to shift gears, there’s the whole Dee thing. You really played out very strongly the emotional and personal fallout of this discovery of Earth. You didn’t back away from it.
That felt really important. If they’re going to get to Earth and Earth is ashes, that felt like it has to have a huge impact on all these characters. There had to be a cost. There had to be a price somebody paid for that discovery. Not everybody could take that. Not everyone could just say, “OK, that didn’t work out, let’s go on to next week’s episode.”
It felt like somebody would just say, “No, I’m done. I just want to find a little moment of time where I can feel good about myself one last time, then I’m finished with this long nightmare.” And that seemed like that would be Dualla.

Was there a discussion of who that would be, the person who would pay that cost? How did you settle on her?

We did talk about it, and it felt like in some ways, I mean, unfortunately, it was [a case of,] she was kind of the sweetest character. It would be the one that you would expect the least. It also felt right. Her journey had -- she was in love with Billy and then she was in love with this other man and neither one worked out. And all she really had in her life was this hope of getting to Earth some day. Some day it would all be OK.
Her whole family, her whole world, everything had been shattered. After Billy died and after she splits with Lee, probably all Dualla has is [the goal of Earth]. The job doesn’t mean anything -- what does the job mean at that point? There’s no career, it’s just getting through the next day. So what she had is to get to Earth. And she got to Earth and it turned out to be nothing. So it felt like, she’s done. It’s overwith.
[B]
That’s the impact of her death, though -- she’s the professional. It’s not like she’s unfeeling, but she’s going to compartmentalize and get the job done and be an officer and do what she needs to do. And then when she couldn’t do that at all... I mean, she could, to have that date with Lee, but then she was done. For someone like that to just end it, that’s very unsettling.
She just said, “My story ends here. I end here.” It gave her a measure of control, it gave her a measure of decision, she was able to say, “My life is going to end at this point.”

I’m sure the actors take it hard, but is it hard for the writers too, is it like, “But this is Dee!” Is it hard to kill off a character you’ve lived with like that?
Yeah, it is hard. In the final season, it was a little different. Cally died and Dee and other people along the way -- we had other sorts of discussions [of these Season 4 deaths]. Because it was all in the context of the show is ending. Everything is ending. This whole narrative is ending so it’s all about what is the resolution to all these stories.

Oka
January 17th, 2009, 06:38 AM
So dark - but there's a reason for that. Amazing acting, interesting development. Kudos RDM.

SG1Commander
January 17th, 2009, 06:40 AM
I can't believe that Dee killed herself. That was a complete surprise. I was completely shocked when I saw found out that Ellen Tigh might be the final Cylon.

ToasterOnFire
January 17th, 2009, 06:59 AM
Ahahaha, great speculation from someone on the 5th cylon hint in the Last Supper pic. (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsg_lastsupper.jpg)

There's a notable space between Tigh and Lee. The chalice there represents Ellen's death by poison on New Caprica. HA!

Briangate78
January 17th, 2009, 07:10 AM
Wow, this is BSG at it's darkest hour. The drama was amazing in this episode. Last time I got a taste of that darker drama was SGA's "The Last man", but that was nothing compared to this. I love how all the pieces are coming together. The episode was slow, but that didn't take anything away. It is amazing how when people lose hope it totally destroys oneself. You have the final four getting flashbacks of their homeworld.

Were they really Cylons? Or were the cylons made to their human creators. So many questions still yet to come. I don't think it's going to be a happy ending at all.

What about Starbuck? Wow that was freaky. Maybe that was an alternate Starbuck. Maybe everyone are Cylons and have no idea.

Tighis da man
January 17th, 2009, 07:30 AM
So we now have 4 different species in the show?

1. Humans (who may really just be cylons).
2. Original 5 Cylons (tigh etc.)
3. The new 7 models of Cylons who have many copies and can/could resurrect
4. The Billions of Cylons living on earth that could not resurrect

and of course there is Starbuck who also seens to be able to resurrect and some how her viper did as well.

My head is starting to hurt...............

GateofDOOM
January 17th, 2009, 07:33 AM
:eek:


Having read way too many spoilers for my own good (:o) the only thing that really surprised me was Dee. It was just as Gaeta was leaving that it entered my mind....*sniff*.

This was a dark episode indeed.

And oh goodness me, Ellen! If she didn't resurrect again...


Was anyone watching this episode on Space BTW? They had commentators dressed in BSG outfits and I was just a little confused. :P

DigiFluid
January 17th, 2009, 07:38 AM
Was anyone watching this episode on Space BTW? They had commentators dressed in BSG outfits and I was just a little confused. :P

Yes, those two were really annoying lol. And I've just never liked Natasha Eloi.

Did anyone else (re)watch the webisodes on Space at 9? The frakin cut out Gaeta finding the pilots with their throats slashed!

Briangate78
January 17th, 2009, 07:41 AM
Ok who laughed at the "Frak Earth" writing on the wall? :p

Tighis da man
January 17th, 2009, 07:47 AM
Some of this reminds me of the movie Hancock.

MmmmMcKAy
January 17th, 2009, 07:47 AM
Dee killing herself was a shock. I literally put my hand over my mouth and said "oh, my God". When she took off her wedding band, I did think that something was up with her. I too think she had just had enough of the disappointments and despair. She said her goodbyes to Lee and was ready to die.

Ellen as the Fifth and the leader...wow!

I'm dying to know what's up with Starbuck. Leoben was definitely terrified when they found Kara's body in the viper.

Everyone on earth was cylon. Chief, Tori, Sam and Tigh all lived there and can now recall snippets. They died but came back to life and somehow joined up with the 12 colonies.

Roslin also despairing. I haven't liked her much since Season 1 so I'm almost glad.


So much stuff in this episode but it was amazing. I'm glad BSG is back.

Skydiver
January 17th, 2009, 07:53 AM
what if the humans, adama, lee, the capricans, etc, are cylons made by a ultimate creator. and he made them with the ability to reproduce.

the 7, six, eight, gina, cavil, etc, are cylon 2.0. cylons created by the humans, and they lack the 'humanity' so to speak to reproduce. thus the resurrection ship, their version of reproduction

cylons 2.0 rose up against their creators and nuked earth. earth's refugees ran, with the 5 a part of them.

what if, instead of resurrection, the cylons 1.0 (the five) don't reproduce with resurrection but with reincarnation. their consciousnesses are downloaded into someone from the next generation, and that someone grows to take their place.

doesn't totally explain kara yet, but i'm expecting something like a Count Iblis character to pop up.

anotherquestion
January 17th, 2009, 08:06 AM
I have only one question.. Where is the 6 that Saul knocked up? and there Full blood cylon baby? It probably hasnt been 9 months but I think she should be showing still and It kinda feels like an important part of the show.

Oh. yeah I think the whole world went "holy ****" when Dee squeezed one off.

I bet the cylon Baby is Ellen Tigh reincarnated. The final five don't use Resurrection Hub type vats, they are reborn as infants.

Tigh has obviously aged during the time he has known Adama, so, presuming he had resurrected before, he must have been younger and grown older like a normal Colonial. That's how the final five roll.

jbreaken
January 17th, 2009, 08:07 AM
I have questions... SOOO confused!

Do cylons 1-8 age? Or do they always look like that?

Did they ever talk about how many copies there are of the final five?

Have they ever talked about #7? Or did they just skip that number?

Was Cylon 1 created first? Or were the final five created first?

Cylons can't have babies with Cylons... right?

I think 6 is how Ellen Tigh looks when she's young, and Ellen Tigh's model is just number 6 reworked... if the final five were made last, and if #1-8 don't age.

Also, if the 6 in the brig is not 6 but a younger Ellen Tigh, the final cylon, then that would explain why she could get pregnant by a cylon... hope that makes sense.

AND... is 3 really just gonna stay and die!?!?!? What's happening???


These babies are important too... I keep feeling like Hera is gonna grow up to be Dee

Holy_devil
January 17th, 2009, 08:23 AM
I believe Kara is a cylon but if their only 13, maybe Kara = young Ellen. Great episode.

dekebuck
January 17th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Just one addition here, Kara's body had not been there for eons, it was still rotting so it had been there for perhaps a few weeks. Her retching was evidence of that and the "meat" (yuck!) around the jaw. I am with most of you here. There is a tie between Kara and Dee and resurrection on this planet and the whole cycle. I want to know all now, but I also want to wait and I never want it to end - all signs of a great show.

DigiFluid
January 17th, 2009, 08:33 AM
Ok who laughed at the "Frak Earth" writing on the wall? :p

/raises hand

peragrin
January 17th, 2009, 09:04 AM
As I pointed out in the 2,000 years thread.

the 13th tribe left kobol 3,500 years ago,
the tribes left kobol 2,000 years ago and started the colonies.
Earth was destroyed 2,000 years ago.

So this says that they should head back to Kobol. start the cycle again.

Exiled Master
January 17th, 2009, 09:20 AM
I'm still waiting for Baltar to give a speech to his followers. This episode lacked his hamming it up.

rarocks24
January 17th, 2009, 10:10 AM
I have a very strong suspicion that:

The 12 tribes destroyed Earth 2,000 years ago, and Earth's retaliation forced the 12 tribes to flee Kobol. Upon seeing the damage that was wrought, the 12 colonies, afraid to ever open that chapter of their lives again, painted it as a mythological colony in deep space that will never be seen by the likes of the Twelve.

But then history repeated itself and the Thirteenth found the 12 colonies.

From here, my thoughts branch:

Either, the five created the seven.
That in fact, there were six survivors, and that's why Cavil is so ****ed up.
The Five have nothing to do with the seven's creation, but are significant in the role that, they intend to end the cycle by preserving the last cycle.

tricky
January 17th, 2009, 10:24 AM
So ,many twists and turns.
I really thought Dee was the Fifth. I guess she could still be, but not looking good for her. And a few of my friends have noticed that Ellen and 6 could be mother and daughter, or the same woman serperated by years and good make-up!

So, Earth was the 13th colony, home of the Cylons? So, the 'Lords of Kobol' had cylons, and thousands of years later, the Colonials made cylons too? Oh, and the Cylons on Earth made Cylons too. (Wow, this is getting confusing, eh?)

Thought: After the Destruction of Earth, the five headed into space. Advanced Organic/Cylon hybrids, the eventually ran into their Colonialy created cousins (who are toasters at this point), and eventually discover their connections. Soon, the Five help them make the Seven. At this point, the Seven decide to take revenge against the Colonials. The Five resist, and are possibly killed by the Seven, but somehow, they are able to be reborn on Caprica (and possibly other places), inserting themselves into Colonial society as a sorta 'failsafe' to save the humans.

Or, I could be totally wrong.

Alot of holes still need plugged. Like what is Kara Thrace? How did she see a Living world? How did she and her Viper resurrect? Who or what is the Cylon god (is it Ellen)?

Still, great episode. Good to have well written tv back. Shame it's only for 10 weeks.

Rac80
January 17th, 2009, 10:28 AM
Ahahaha, great speculation from someone on the 5th cylon hint in the Last Supper pic. (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsg_lastsupper.jpg)

There's a notable space between Tigh and Lee. The chalice there represents Ellen's death by poison on New Caprica. HA!
wow great eye there.... I never noticed that.


what if the humans, adama, lee, the capricans, etc, are cylons made by a ultimate creator. and he made them with the ability to reproduce.

the 7, six, eight, gina, cavil, etc, are cylon 2.0. cylons created by the humans, and they lack the 'humanity' so to speak to reproduce. thus the resurrection ship, their version of reproduction

cylons 2.0 rose up against their creators and nuked earth. earth's refugees ran, with the 5 a part of them.

what if, instead of resurrection, the cylons 1.0 (the five) don't reproduce with resurrection but with reincarnation. their consciousnesses are downloaded into someone from the next generation, and that someone grows to take their place.

doesn't totally explain kara yet, but i'm expecting something like a Count Iblis character to pop up.

Yep yep that was my first thought when Kara was looking for the signal, she will find count iblis' ship.... but wait, maybe she is iblis????

I had "gone off" BSG the last 1 1/2 seasons, but now... it's on top again! :D:D

marielabbott
January 17th, 2009, 10:32 AM
I found Leoben's reaction to discovery of the dead Kara interesting. It seemed to freak him out. Obviously not what he was expecting. And that he doesn't know what to make of the living one.

In some ways I thought that was the most shocking development of the episode--the very mystically certain, Kara-focused Leoben basically runs from her in fear? :eek: What is Starbuck??

As the episode progressed, I really thought they were going to reveal Dee as the final cylon. Her reaction to Earth, her watching over Hera (and maybe filling the kid's head with info about 6 while doing so)...so I was shocked when she killed herself. It seems some of the "sweetest" characters from the mini-series (Dee, Cally, Billy) are just destined for despair and death. :(

Wow. Ellen Tigh. Did NOT see that coming. I was doubtful she was actually the final cylon until I got online and saw apparent confirmations. I wonder what she was able to put in place for her and Tigh to be reborn together? And what about the rest of the final five, how do they tie into that plan? Anders asked some good questions after his flashback, and one was why did we think we were human? In the previous eps, he seemed to be one of the final five that tried to hang onto his humanity the most...I wonder how this will play out for him.

rarocks24
January 17th, 2009, 10:48 AM
In the previous eps, he seemed to be one of the final five that tried to hang onto his humanity the most...I wonder how this will play out for him.

I don't know. He seemed like he was constantly flirting with getting outed. I seriously thought he was going to come out in Faith.

ToasterOnFire
January 17th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Something I'm chewing over...Helo/Athena, Tyrol/Cally, and Tigh/Six's born and unborn children = new/alternative method of cylon resurrection?

Zamboni
January 17th, 2009, 10:58 AM
Actually, and I'm being completely facetious when I say this, but:

I guess Apollo is just awful in the sack. Which would explain why she married Sam. She loves Apollo but he's not good in the bed, so has Anders for her sexual frustrations. She sure treats Anders that way.You know what they say; big ship, small... cockpit...

Bruman
January 17th, 2009, 11:20 AM
I don't remember if I posted this months ago, but I had always thought that the "this has happened before and will all happen again" was about the idea that maybe all humans are actually someone else's Cylons and that every few thousand years a new breed of "Cylon" replaces it's "parents." Doral mentions at one points that parents have to die so that children can take their place.

I didn't think about Earth being a Cylon home though... I just thought that we might discover that we humans were actually cylons to the Lords of Kobol (or the Gods).

It is interesting that after the first Cylon war, the cylons went to live on a planet of their own. I wonder if somehow there is a connection between that and the Cylons on planet Earth.

---

Did anyone find it interesting that Baltar was having a discussion with everyone about their discovery that the Earth skeletons (if this is indeed Earth) are Cylons? It was as if all was forgiven by everyone and he was back in his lab in Season 1? I mean, even the Cylons dislike him. And how do they figure out who's a Cylon and not, from just bones. (Maybe the Cylons themselves know how - except why would they need to, with just 7 models to figure out)

I think Baltar is actually going to be pretty key to all of this... the whole fleet, the government, the military, etc. is all falling apart, and the only major humans who seem to be keeping it together seem to be Lee and Baltar. Lee has an internal stamina, and Baltar has his religious thing which may be what people need in a time of crisis like this... and the previews suggest that Tom Zarek might be stirring up some fun too.

---

Kara's story is strange. Maybe she is a superCylon that nobody knows about (not even the ordinary cylons). It would make 13 cylons and 13 colonies... tying the two together somehow... but even so, there's got to be more, because there's a brand new Viper after the other crashed, and she has her memories (sorta). I must admit that I kept thinking that maybe this is like the Genesis planet in Search for Spock (though I wouldn't like that outcome much).

And why doesn't the Hybrid as well as tub-man from Razor count as a numbered Cylon anyway - maybe because they never get out of their goo bathtubs?

Skydiver
January 17th, 2009, 11:34 AM
maybe kara's some sort of changeling? someone/something taking on her image/memories/etc to boost 'fate' along. In other words, they NEED the humans to earth, so they send kara to bring them there. the real kara is dead and has been for months. this kara is a construct of some sort. sent to retrieve the humans and get them to earth. for reasons as yet unrevealed

the more i think about the count iblis idea the more i like it. what if iblis is the cylon 2.0 'god'? the creator that they worship?

and a 'god' is powerless without worshippers. construct kara was sent - however unknowingly - to retrieve him some

I predict that, when the 7 show up, they and teh humans will be on the verge of killing each other...only to be stopped by an Iblis type of character, 'god' to the cylons

foxhound22
January 17th, 2009, 11:36 AM
So this says that they should head back to Kobol. start the cycle again.

You know, I was thinking this exact same thing. Just go back to Kobol and recolonize that planet. It wasnt iradiated.

Regarding Kara, I have no idea.

And I would have figured Gaeta to have some importance, seems like anytime something big happens, he is around.

Skydiver
January 17th, 2009, 12:32 PM
maybe gaeta is just the wedge antilles of the show

Bruman
January 17th, 2009, 12:45 PM
The problem with settling Kobol is that the bad Cylons know about it and will come back to blow away the remaining humans.

I didn't like Iblis or the Ship of Lights in the original Battlestar... I really hope they don't do that.

BobBot
January 17th, 2009, 01:00 PM
My theory:

There are 13 cylon models, the 7, the Final Five and The Thirteenth, who is "the one that shall never be mentioned". That's why they only refer to 12 models, and why Starbuck's resurrection scared Leoben so much - he now thinks she is the 13th, and maybe she is, given that the hybrid said Starbuck is the Harbinger of Death.

The planet they found isn't Earth, but Kobol. We know there was an exodus from Kobol, so that suggests Kobol was destroyed. The 12 Lords of Kobol could be the 12 cylon models (with the 13th being Death rather than a Kobol Lord). Since we know the inhabitants of the devastated planet were cylons and some survived the devastation, it could be that 12 of them lead a colony each. Presumably the 13th model was responsible for the destruction of Kobol, which is why she's known as the Harbinger of Death.

I think I'm right in thinking that each of the Final Five come from a different colony, though I could be wrong. But if right, it wouldn't contradict my theories.

The 'humans' would really be the descendents of early cylons and/or any humans who escaped Kobol (250 bodies were found to be cylon, but we don't know that only cylons were present on the planet). Maybe other cylons survived or were resurrected and kept their cylon heritage, becoming Cavill's cylons that planned the attack on the colonies.

CKO
January 17th, 2009, 01:06 PM
there was an intereview with kate vernon *aka Ellen Tigh.* she confirms it herself that plays the 5th Cylon.

CLICK if you dare.

interview --->>>

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-cylon-2009jan17,0,3409207.story

BobBot
January 17th, 2009, 01:13 PM
Did anyone find it interesting that Baltar was having a discussion with everyone about their discovery that the Earth skeletons (if this is indeed Earth) are Cylons? It was as if all was forgiven by everyone and he was back in his lab in Season 1? I mean, even the Cylons dislike him. And how do they figure out who's a Cylon and not, from just bones. (Maybe the Cylons themselves know how - except why would they need to, with just 7 models to figure out)


Officially, he was forgiven. And he is the fleet genius, he probably knows more about cylons than anyone else. As for figuring out the bones... we know cylon blood is different, so presumably they could check for remaining bone marrow and see it is cylon. The bones could have been all identical, if there was only 12 cylon models and 250 bodies discovered that's an average of 22 identical skeletons! There were more than 12 people-types in the flashbacks, so either there were humans on the planet, who's bodies weren't found, or there were more than 12 cylon models on the planet. Personally, I think the latter - I reckon only 5 or 12/13 survived the planet's destruction and 5 hid in the colonies. The other 7 either formed their own cylon community and became the cylons who attacked the colonies, or they are the decendents of the cylons created 50 years before BSG is set.

jollyrogue
January 17th, 2009, 01:56 PM
The problem with settling Kobol is that the bad Cylons know about it and will come back to blow away the remaining humans.

I didn't like Iblis or the Ship of Lights in the original Battlestar... I really hope they don't do that.

So you've seen the original series too? i saw it years ago and can only remember bits... did the centurion head look like the centurions from the original series to you?

From what i remember there was another race of people.. i would fail at describing them and can't seem to find them on wikipedia but i always thought starbuck was one of them, ever since she re-appeared. damn my describing is good. :beckett:
I'll keep trying to find out

knowles2
January 17th, 2009, 02:03 PM
Pretty good episode a nice past to the story and did not drag on for to long. I just hope they keep up this kind of past in all the eps that are coming.
The story and what actually happen in the episode through was a bit thin and thought their a few bits which could be cut, for more story.



Here is my grandiose theory

They were not on earth and it was just distraction/diversion to keep the fleet away from the Real Earth and the last human settlement. The people of earth have master robotics which are one hundred percent fail safe. The Sturbuck will cause their destruction because she will lead them to the planet, where they are then destroy by their defence forces.

3600 years ago 13 human tribes and one cylon tribe abandon their home planet Kabol and settle the stars.

The, 13th tribe always blame the Cylons for the war and as soon as they found out where they live they nuclear bomb the planet. Five cylons survive the slaughter and venture out to the stars. The eventually found the twelve colonies, fifty or so years before the cylon war. They then help the cylons developed their own biological cylons and this is when they learnt of the cylons ultimate plan and pulled out of it, they all remember the destruction and lost that such was would cause and could not go through with it.

They then infiltrated the colony, over time they forgot who they were and when ever they body died they simply transferred to a new one, the seven cylons corrupted the five programming and they forgot who they were. This activated a secondary fail safe which wiped the seven memories of who the 5 are.

The above is what I just randomly thought of during the episodes, their are probably plenty of holes in it, but I think it might be contradicted from what we of caprica.

Arative
January 17th, 2009, 02:12 PM
So you've seen the original series too? i saw it years ago and can only remember bits... did the centurion head look like the centurions from the original series to you?

From what i remember there was another race of people.. i would fail at describing them and can't seem to find them on wikipedia but i always thought starbuck was one of them, ever since she re-appeared. damn my describing is good. :beckett:
I'll keep trying to find out

In the original series, the cylon robots were created by a race of lizards called the cylons. The robots rose up and killed off the lizard cylons and then attacked humans. Although I do kind of remember seeing a lizard supreme leader with a big brain or something. I don't remember much about the ship of lights story line though.

jollyrogue
January 17th, 2009, 02:16 PM
hmm i don't remember as much of it as i should :P will have to borrow the series of my uncle sometime.

anyway.. Was Dee humming anything important? I couldn't make out the tune properly

Trek_Girl42
January 17th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Ahahaha, great speculation from someone on the 5th cylon hint in the Last Supper pic. (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/bsg_lastsupper.jpg)

There's a notable space between Tigh and Lee. The chalice there represents Ellen's death by poison on New Caprica. HA!
Woah.....that's so obvious in hindsight. And rather awesome.


Did anyone else (re)watch the webisodes on Space at 9? The frakin cut out Gaeta finding the pilots with their throats slashed!YES! That was SO annoying, I went and complained elsewhere about it. :mad:


In some ways I thought that was the most shocking development of the episode--the very mystically certain, Kara-focused Leoben basically runs from her in fear? :eek: What is Starbuck??

As the episode progressed, I really thought they were going to reveal Dee as the final cylon. Her reaction to Earth, her watching over Hera (and maybe filling the kid's head with info about 6 while doing so)...so I was shocked when she killed herself. It seems some of the "sweetest" characters from the mini-series (Dee, Cally, Billy) are just destined for despair and death. :(

Wow. Ellen Tigh. Did NOT see that coming. I was doubtful she was actually the final cylon until I got online and saw apparent confirmations. I wonder what she was able to put in place for her and Tigh to be reborn together? And what about the rest of the final five, how do they tie into that plan? Anders asked some good questions after his flashback, and one was why did we think we were human? In the previous eps, he seemed to be one of the final five that tried to hang onto his humanity the most...I wonder how this will play out for him.I didn't believe it in the slightest......until I saw RDM's exact words of confirmation. In an episode with SO MUCH going on, that kinda felt like one of the least important parts, even in hindsight.

phaeton
January 17th, 2009, 03:35 PM
Fantastic ep best ever :D

Did honestly not see Ellen as the Fifth.

Everyone keeps posting about the final five fleeing earth but how could they when they're all dead ?

Bruman
January 17th, 2009, 03:48 PM
As for the original Battlestar series, I did see a number of them when I was a kid and don't remember them very well, but in the LOOOOONG wait for Season 4.5 to come, I discovered that Netflix has the whole original series on instant view. I saw a bunch of them in the interim. It's interesting, but mostly goes to show how much better RDM's version is.

hellrasinb
January 17th, 2009, 03:50 PM
After watching Sometimes A Great Notion you have to chuck all preconceptions about the history of the Twelve Colonies and the Cylon out an air lock.

Roughly 3000 years ago on Earth the Cylon race ended by their own hand through a Nuclear Holocaust. Whatever the mystical being plot is is what recreated the Cylon race on Kobal. At some point in Kobal's history a holy war erupted and the people were expelled from paradise scattered across 12 planets "The Twelve Colonies of Man". The Final Five left trails of their pre-history across space that the current generation of Cylon (The remnants of the 12 colonies) have used to find Earth.

JayShadow
January 17th, 2009, 04:20 PM
So here's a summary on how Ron Moore breaks down the general history of events in this episode's commentary. He said there will be more information in the last few episodes.

Humans on Kobal 'stole fire from the gods'(the knowledge of creating life) and created Cylons. Kobal is destroyed because of it. Humans go one way and create the 12 colonies. Cylons go the other way and found Earth. Cylons eventually repeat the mistake of man and also try to create life which leads to Earth's downfall.

As we know, the 12 colonies do the same.

All this has happened before, all of it will happen again...and again...and again.

HAL2100
January 17th, 2009, 05:34 PM
It just occurred to me that there's nothing saying that there aren't actually 13 Cylons. Throughout the series its always been 'The 12 Colonies plus Earth' so why not 'The 12 Human form Cylons plus One'.

DigiFluid
January 17th, 2009, 05:50 PM
At the end of the miniseries, there was a note in Adama's quarters saying "there are only 12 Cylon models."

The intro to 4.0 said "Twelve Cylon Models", followed by "Seven are known" and "Four live in secret" and finally "One will be revealed".


The magic number is 12....

Tain
January 17th, 2009, 06:07 PM
I wonder what the final five had in common that linked them back on Earth. And I wonder why they were so special among the other residents that allowed them to survive.

I was thinking about this myself actually. Didn't the book of Pythia, when speaking of the 5, refer to them as "priests" of "The one who can't be named", the jealous god that pretty much destroyed Kobol? Isn't it possible that they are special because as "priests" of the rogue Lord they are directly connected to him, and therefore were "spared" when this same Lord decided to visit destruction on Earth? Heck, maybe the 5 are directly responsible for Earth's demise, calling the rogue Lord there to finish what he began on Kobol.

I find it interesting that one of the signposts on the way to Earth, was none other than the "temple" of the 5, on the algae planet.

Aussie_86
January 17th, 2009, 07:37 PM
So here's a summary on how Ron Moore breaks down the general history of events in this episode's commentary. He said there will be more information in the last few episodes.

Humans on Kobal 'stole fire from the gods'(the knowledge of creating life) and created Cylons. Kobal is destroyed because of it. Humans go one way and create the 12 colonies. Cylons go the other way and found Earth. Cylons eventually repeat the mistake of man and also try to create life which leads to Earth's downfall.

As we know, the 12 colonies do the same.

All this has happened before, all of it will happen again...and again...and again.

Since the Lords of Kobol had the 'fire of the gods (the knowlede of creating life), i'm betting that they made the 'humans'. I reckon that the story keeps going back beyond that (aka, the Lords of Kobol were the creation of something else), or if it doesnt, and it all originated with the LoK, then i'm betting that they're the only humans around (where human means evolving to the point of their civilization, and not being created by something else).

My bets on Starbuck are either
a) she's from a previous cycle (i.e. she might be one of the 'Cylons' from Kobol, or she might even be a Lord of Kobol herself (where the Lords of Kobol were an entire civilisation, not just 12 models that were worshipped by humans))

b) she's the 'one whose name can not be spoken' aka the harbringer of death, and the one that makes the cycle start again.

Now, some random points that i just thought of that need further consideration

* It would have been really good if the abandoned storyline of the Centurions rebelling against the skinjobs had actually gone ahead. It would have fit in with the 'all of this has happened before and will happen again' motto.

Cheers
Aussie

TheHomegaMan
January 17th, 2009, 07:41 PM
Hell of an episode. A lot of preconceptions shattered, and some new expectations created.

Although, I think too many people are reading too deeply into Dee. Dee was devastated, Dee committed suicide. End of story. The entire idea that she remembered things is simply an invention of people who want her to be more significant. They have difficulty accepting what's put right in front of them and realizing that she took the only way out she knew. She found toys and thought of dead children. She went to the Agathons and took care of Hera because she wanted to be around somebody who wasn't burdened by the devastating discovery. She killed herself because she was convinced that everything ahead of her was bleak, and she'd had the most fun of her life.

She isn't a Cylon. Mark my words. I love theorizing as much as the next rabid fan, but theories need to be based on something or be in the least bit reasonable. The whole Dee is a Cylon bit is based more on coming up with assumptions that aren't backed up by what we know, then theorizing based on those inventions.

I loved the Ellen reveal. It made Saul's role meatier, and he now has to deal with not only killing his wife for collaboration when he was in fact a Cylon, but he also has to deal with the fact that they were in love 2000 years ago, and that she was one of the five most important entities is existence.

The idea of Caprica Six carrying Ellen to be reborn is appealing, but Kate Vernon has said she will be in 7 of the last 9 or somesuch Also factor in Eick's video blog where the crew specifically mention that all Five are together on what looks like a Galactica set.

As for the rest of the reactions: perfect. It was a crushing discovery, and they were properly crushed. I love the breakdown of morale and discipline, and hope that they continue to address it in a compelling way.

On a purely raw level, Sometimes a Great Notion is leaps and bounds ahead of anything done in visual Sci-fi in the last decade or more, and far above what Stargate could hope to pull off.

Morbius
January 17th, 2009, 08:46 PM
At the end of the miniseries, there was a note in Adama's quarters saying "there are only 12 Cylon models."

The intro to 4.0 said "Twelve Cylon Models", followed by "Seven are known" and "Four live in secret" and finally "One will be revealed".


The magic number is 12....

Quite correct. I do not doubt it is accurate because iirc Baltar left the note and we heard six tell him there are 12 models.

Plus Starbuck.

Plus the "head" characters.

Plus the cylon god.

not all is explained, i can't wait for the explanation of how it all fits.

Archaeis
January 17th, 2009, 08:59 PM
Well, there will be a 13th soon enough with little Tigh being born.

cameron1
January 17th, 2009, 09:17 PM
'Sometimes A Great Notion' sounded like it came from somewhere else, so i looked it up. there's a novel with the same title, written by a Ken Kesey, and tho i haven't read it, someone else summed the book by a quote in it:

"...there is always a sanctuary more, a door that can never be forced whatever the force; a last inviolable stronghold that cannot be taken, whatever the attack. Your vote can be taken, your name, your innards, even your life. But that last stronghold can only be surrendered--and to surrender it for any reason other than love is to surrender love..."

http://www.amazon.com/Sometimes-Great-Notion-Ken-Kesey/dp/0140045295 the quote is in this page as well as more about the story.

maybe the writers were writing along the themes of this book when they wrote this episode...

lunarleviathan
January 17th, 2009, 09:46 PM
As everyone else has said, this episode was a total mind frak!

If we think right back to the very first episode when the skin jobs first show up, nobody knew about them right? The theory that the skin jobs somehow were created from the ranks of the original (those made on the colonies) Cylons was just taken as fact. It always seemed odd, but there was no alternate explanation. Now there is...

I'm thinking the 7 and the 5 all came from Earth together. At some point they split into two groups. The 7 decided to replicate themselves and build a civilization. The 5 stuck to the original goal and went to the colonies. It explains why the 7 would know about the "final 5", but didn't know specifically who they were.

Also here's another theory: Skin jobs are just cloned humans. So far there is no evidence from Earth that the people living there were Cylons. We only know they built their own metallic, "tin can", Cylons. What if the resurrection technology is just a super advanced form of cloning? Consider Caprica, the spin-off currently in development. Apparently that show tells how the colony-made Cylons came about through experiments in cloning one of the lead characters dead daughter. That would mean a human consciousness and memories being put into an artificial body. The 13th tribe may have been humans at one point who simply developed the same technology, but to a higher level of sophistication and complexity.

Kara is an anomaly. Everything we know about resurrection tells us she would need a resurrection facility close by or she would be lost forever. Let's assume a consciousness can be stored and doesn't need to download right away. (Was this ever mentioned? I think it was.) Kara's new body might have come later. Remember her ovary being taken by the 7? What if someone in the 7, probably Cavil, knew where Earth was? What if he cloned her and then downloaded her into the body? Perhaps my theoretical human cloning would work on other humans from the colonies too (Dee. Roslin, if her cancer kills her.)? Food for thought. ;)

ajt111
January 17th, 2009, 09:55 PM
I can not believe that everyone one is forgetting the opra house dream! I will tell you who the final 5 are; the 5 people who shared the dream:
1. Athina
2. Caprica 6
3. Rozalan
4. Baltar
5. Hera

lunarleviathan
January 17th, 2009, 09:57 PM
There's nothing to suggest that there aren't even more than 12 or 13 Cylons. We assume the 7 Cylons know everything. The revelations that Kara might be a Cylon, and that Earth was populated by Cylons, suggest that they don't have the full picture.

There are 12 Cylons, sure. Who says new Cylons can't be created from humans (maybe Kara)? Who says the skin-jobs didn't all come from Earth and were originally just human clones that broke into two groups (7 and 5)?

At this point, anything can happen. Who is who and where they came from is up in the air. How much certain people and certain Cylons know is also a mystery.

Morbius
January 17th, 2009, 11:00 PM
There's nothing to suggest that there aren't even more than 12 or 13 Cylons. We assume the 7 Cylons know everything. The revelations that Kara might be a Cylon, and that Earth was populated by Cylons, suggest that they don't have the full picture.

There are 12 Cylons, sure. Who says new Cylons can't be created from humans (maybe Kara)? Who says the skin-jobs didn't all come from Earth and were originally just human clones that broke into two groups (7 and 5)?

At this point, anything can happen. Who is who and where they came from is up in the air. How much certain people and certain Cylons know is also a mystery.

2 things.

i have always assumed the 7 don't kow everything, in fact i'm still waiting for a satisfactory answer as to where their incredible infrastructure is that created the toaster/raider/basestar fleet. That took a hell of a lot of metal.

I do not for one second believe Kara to be a cylon in the sense that the 7 are.

Here's the thing, I think the 7 are cheap copies of the 5, as close as they could get to replicating themselves by creating.

isn't it notable that Saul/six can have a child but Saul/ellan did not?

airrick
January 18th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Is it possible that when Kara went to Earth -
She went back in time and set off the events that led to the destruction of Earth? I mean her fighter looked as if it was massively destroyed.. could it have been seen as an act of war in a time when the human cylons and centurions werent on good terms? Maybe the death prophecy wasnt about bringing everyone to Earth the second time.. maybe it was about when she first found Earth and crashed into it.. that would lead everyone to their doom? Anyone else have any thoughts?

Dusk
January 18th, 2009, 01:47 AM
Ellen is the Final cylon? There's a critical piece still missing from the puzzle that will link the snippets of information we are starting to gather. I have a working theory, especially after Dee took her life (shocking!). But I just need one more episode to put the theory into place.

The Admiral and Roslin are gonna need a padded cell before much longer.

Esquin
January 18th, 2009, 02:26 AM
Could it be possible that there are 13 "Cylons" I mean lets look at this.

12 Cylons, 12 colonies. Now potentially it could be relevant or not. If it is then there is 1 missing, we have 13 colonies after all. Could Kara have some place as the 13th?

BobBot
January 18th, 2009, 03:25 AM
Is it possible that when Kara went to Earth -
She went back in time and set off the events that led to the destruction of Earth? I mean her fighter looked as if it was massively destroyed.. could it have been seen as an act of war in a time when the human cylons and centurions werent on good terms? Maybe the death prophecy wasnt about bringing everyone to Earth the second time.. maybe it was about when she first found Earth and crashed into it.. that would lead everyone to their doom? Anyone else have any thoughts?

Nothing in the show suggests anything like that could happen. That's a very SciFi idea, and BSG doesn't do time travel, aliens, etc. that shows like Star Trek do. The only Sci Fi elements are robots turning on their masters, and space travel. If your idea turned out to be true, it'd be a huge disappointment and betrayal of everything the show is.


I can not believe that everyone one is forgetting the opra house dream! I will tell you who the final 5 are; the 5 people who shared the dream:
1. Athina
2. Caprica 6
3. Rozalan
4. Baltar
5. Hera

Except that Athena and Caprica 6 are from the 7, Hera is a cylon/human hybrid and, um, we know the final five are Tyrol, Tigh, Ellen, Anders and Tory...

mr_kennedy
January 18th, 2009, 03:27 AM
what i liked

more backstory revealed
adama/tigh scene
lee/d
frak earth
roslin's reaction
baltars cylon detector really worked

what i didnt like

adama/tigh scene :p
D :(

ok i have the adama/tigh scene in both because i found it both enjoyable and disturbing really well done by EJO & MH


Could it be possible that there are 13 "Cylons" I mean lets look at this.

12 Cylons, 12 colonies. Now potentially it could be relevant or not. If it is then there is 1 missing, we have 13 colonies after all. Could Kara have some place as the 13th?

i theorized this too but now i am not so sure, i think kara is part of an original cycle, someone already mentioned that she could have been a lord of kobal which and i kind of agree,

and im going with that were all cylons here

i think zak might be a kobalian lord aswell, i think there (the lords of kobal) cylons from another cycle, maybe the original cycle and the 13th tribe were a tribe of terriorists or something so they split, and the lords of kobal discovered earth say 2 years later and nuked the frak out of it with ellen collaborating with the lords of kobal thats what she meant when she said its all ok they will be reborn

i also think, that the civillian population on kobal dissaproved of this and revolted againts the lords of kobal and thus kobal was nuked

prophecies arent always entirely accurate

GateofDOOM
January 18th, 2009, 06:53 AM
Yes, those two were really annoying lol. And I've just never liked Natasha Eloi.

Did anyone else (re)watch the webisodes on Space at 9? The frakin cut out Gaeta finding the pilots with their throats slashed!

Hmm...did they? I guess I wasn't paying much attention...:o


'Sometimes A Great Notion' sounded like it came from somewhere else, so i looked it up. there's a novel with the same title, written by a Ken Kesey, and tho i haven't read it, someone else summed the book by a quote in it:

"...there is always a sanctuary more, a door that can never be forced whatever the force; a last inviolable stronghold that cannot be taken, whatever the attack. Your vote can be taken, your name, your innards, even your life. But that last stronghold can only be surrendered--and to surrender it for any reason other than love is to surrender love..."

http://www.amazon.com/Sometimes-Great-Notion-Ken-Kesey/dp/0140045295 the quote is in this page as well as more about the story.

maybe the writers were writing along the themes of this book when they wrote this episode...

I believe the writers confirmed that they did do this in an interview posted earlier in the thread.

pbellosom
January 18th, 2009, 08:04 AM
At the end of the miniseries, there was a note in Adama's quarters saying "there are only 12 Cylon models."


Did we ever find out were that note came from?

pbellosom
January 18th, 2009, 08:06 AM
I agree...Ellen is just 6 as a grown up. Leaving room for Starbuck to be #7 and Dee to be the final 5th...

I've also been working on the theory that not all the cylons of a certain model look the same. I mean what would happen if you were to give a cylon plastic surgery?


And Kandyse confirmed she's dead for good:
http://scifiwire.com/2009/01/dualla-speaks-about-last-nights-battlestar-episode.php

Didn't similar things happen when Starbuck was "dead for good?"



Humans on Kobal 'stole fire from the gods'(the knowledge of creating life) and created Cylons. Kobal is destroyed because of it. Humans go one way and create the 12 colonies. Cylons go the other way and found Earth. Cylons eventually repeat the mistake of man and also try to create life which leads to Earth's downfall.

So basically, the reason that it keeps happening again and again is because civilisation always reaches the point at which they are capable of creating life and this new life always rebels?

TheChosen1
January 18th, 2009, 09:26 AM
I don't know if we've watched the same episode but it's pretty clear that Ellen is the 5th cylon.

Dee didn't have a flashback and is not a cylon (as much as I wanted her to be one). She just lost it like most of the crew.

Not true.


Ander's did not have a flashback. He just picked up the handle of the guitar and he started to play it and remembered. Tory out of the blue said I remember now, you played for all of us, ie: the final 4. Dee, in the same area of Ander's found the Jack's and she realized, omg, I'm a cylon and was overcomed in that scene where she was on her hands and knee's there with the Jack's in the sand/ground/dirt. On the same note, When Apollo goes through dee's stuff that was in a box he find's the Jack's, which was dee's in this incarnation. Dee is a cylon, so is ellen, so Kara. It really looks like they are all cylon's its shaping up, but.................... we will see what develops.

LoneStar1836
January 18th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Did we ever find out were that note came from?
I think RDM said that it was assumed that Baltar left the note.

TheChosen1
January 18th, 2009, 10:04 AM
In the original series, the cylon robots were created by a race of lizards called the cylons. The robots rose up and killed off the lizard cylons and then attacked humans. Although I do kind of remember seeing a lizard supreme leader with a big brain or something. I don't remember much about the ship of lights story line though.

Count Iblis I believe was a cylon(lizzard). He he had evolved to a higher state of being and the ship of lights were kinda like the beings who keeps in check beings of their kind so they don't abuse their power. You know the voice of the cylon commanders on the base ships? The cylons said that voice was of the creator, later in the series, you come across count iblis and you hear his voice and it actually gets confirmied by him he created the cylon(machines).

Mongoletsi
January 18th, 2009, 10:06 AM
I fail to understand how anybody can possibly walk away from this episode still questioning who the Final Fifth is.

Saul Tigh had a Final Five Flashback of something that actually happened, 2000 years ago, in it he saw Ellen Tigh. Ellen Tigh gibbers on about how it's not the end etc. Ellen Tigh is therefore obviously the Final Fifth.

Like Adama said, she's always been drawn to him - she knew something was different.

There was nothing to suggest Dee was, however. Although it was pretty obvious something was going on, as she got loads of screen time.

I don't believe Ellen Tigh is an "older Six". I do think however that it's entirely possible the Six model is based upon Ellen Tigh.

g.o.d
January 18th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Count Iblis I believe was a cylon(lizzard). He he had evolved to a higher state of being and the ship of lights were kinda like the beings who keeps in check beings of their kind so they don't abuse their power. You know the voice of the cylon commanders on the base ships? The cylons said that voice was of the creator, later in the series, you come across count iblis and you hear his voice and it actually gets confirmied by him he created the cylon(machines).

Count Iblis was a corrupted being of light. And beings of light were basically humans who later evolved

Mongoletsi
January 18th, 2009, 10:10 AM
I can not believe that everyone one is forgetting the opra house dream! I will tell you who the final 5 are; the 5 people who shared the dream:
1. Athina
2. Caprica 6
3. Rozalan
4. Baltar
5. Hera

You Lose.

g.o.d
January 18th, 2009, 10:12 AM
not again...

Mongoletsi
January 18th, 2009, 10:15 AM
not again...

Saying Dee is the final fifth has happened before,
and it will happen again!

g.o.d
January 18th, 2009, 10:21 AM
Saying Dee is the final fifth has happened before,
and it will happen again!

I know

Skydiver
January 18th, 2009, 10:31 AM
waht if 'they're all cylons' = your planet was going to be destroyed, so we downloaded the consciousnesses of every one into mechanical constructs as a way to preserve the race.

they're, for lack of a better analogy, all Harlan's Robots, perfect duplicates of those that died, so perfect that they're as good as human

the cylons 1.0 made the cylons 2.0 (1.0 being the five, 2.0 being the seven), the 2.0 cylons rose up against the 1.0 cylons, massacred them because they couldn't handle being lesser, or maybe the 2.0 knew that the 1.0 wanted to kill them.

a greater force resurrected the 1.0 cylons (the humans) into constructed bodies) and implanted memories into them of 2000 years ofhistory to cover up for the removal of the knowledge that htey are machines.

despite that reprogramming, the 1.0 have come to earth because some fragment of memory remained.

the 1.0 cylons/five WERE on earth, but i don't think it was 2000 years ago. the wreckage on the planet is too defined to be 2000 years old. 200 maybe, but not 2000

the timeline is nothing but revisionist history

madk99
January 18th, 2009, 10:45 AM
I agree...Ellen is just 6 as a grown up. Leaving room for Starbuck to be #7 and Dee to be the final 5th...

If Ellen is really just an aged #6, have you considered that Tyrol might be just a young #1?? (Cavil)

madk99
January 18th, 2009, 10:50 AM
it's amazing that despite this episode some people will always say the Fifth cylon is not Ellen Tigh.


guys, Ellen Tigh is the fifth cylon, she's always been the fifth cylon. And she's responsible for the ressurection technology and most likely she created the 'Significant Seven models.

I tell you this. Once upon a time, there was WGA strike. The last episode they made before that strike was "Sometimes a great notion" and the last thing they did in that episode before WGA strike was the revelation of the fifth, which was that scene with Saul and his wife, Ellen, who's the fifth cylon. It's really her, she's the fifth. She's one of the final five cylons. She's the fifth cylon. ;) :D oh, I forgot to mention that Ellen Tigh is the fifth cylon

RDM said in the podcast clearly, bluntly, with zero ambiguity "Ellen's not a cylon" This can only lead us to one conclusion. RDM is a cylon. We know that everything they say is to lie, trick and mislead (kind of like politicians).

But the thing that really bothers me is that no one is asking the fundamental question
**** What defines "Cylon"?? ****
We know that Cylons cannot sexually reproduce. Or more accurately we know that the 7 cannot. The 5 do not seem to have this restriction.
We know that in the original miniseries Balter discovered compounds in the Leoben cremation that revealed the sample to be synthetic in nature. This was never referred to again and Baltar had to reinvent "the amazing nuclear cylon detector". This technology was supposedly related to cylon sensitivity to certain types of radiation, like that seen in the neighborhood of Ragnar or a plutonium core of the nuke. This technology is found to work correctly by identifying Boomer.
Now we see that the bones of the dead are found easily to be Cylon. They tested many samples and they are all found to by Cylon. But WHAT DEFINES CYLON-NESS? (Cylonocity? Cylonitude? )



Did anyone find it interesting that Baltar was having a discussion with everyone about their discovery that the Earth skeletons (if this is indeed Earth) are Cylons? It was as if all was forgiven by everyone and he was back in his lab in Season 1? I mean, even the Cylons dislike him. And how do they figure out who's a Cylon and not, from just bones. (Maybe the Cylons themselves know how - except why would they need to, with just 7 models to figure out)

Kara's story is strange. Maybe she is a superCylon that nobody knows about (not even the ordinary cylons). It would make 13 cylons and 13 colonies... tying the two together somehow... but even so, there's got to be more, because there's a brand new Viper after the other crashed, and she has her memories (sorta). I must admit that I kept thinking that maybe this is like the Genesis planet in Search for Spock (though I wouldn't like that outcome much).

And why doesn't the Hybrid as well as tub-man from Razor count as a numbered Cylon anyway - maybe because they never get out of their goo bathtubs?

and kudos to you for asking these same questions -- not bad for a newbie!!

g.o.d
January 18th, 2009, 10:57 AM
and he also said Ellen is the fifth a day ago. Also Kate Vernon confirmed that and she also said she knew for over two years that she's one of the final five

jbreaken
January 18th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Wow, #3 really is done... that's such a let down.

I think 6 starts the cycles over each time. And I think the final five plus Starbuck are hybrids.

What if Saul and Ellen are both 6's kids... even tho that's a bit incessed and gross... but Ellen did say "we will be reborn, together". What if she's got twins in the oven.

What if 6 escapes with Hera and Baltar with twins in the oven and then has three more kids that are Baltar's. Hera and the final five... the new generation of Starbuck and the final five.

Then they repopulate, until they have to flee to Earth.

What if 6 is Big Mommy, and has been in control all this time.

Platschu
January 18th, 2009, 11:14 AM
I am angry how they written out D'Anna... She had to know about Ellen, but shed didn't mention this for Tigh? It seems she will keep her secret and discoveries for herself. :rolleyes: I hope Cavil won't find her on Earth... :(

madk99
January 18th, 2009, 11:20 AM
maybe gaeta is just the wedge antilles of the show

Why?? Because those prosthetic devices can give you a wedgie??

TheHomegaMan
January 18th, 2009, 11:22 AM
{mod snip} anything in support of Dee as a Cylon is a total fabrication. {mod snip}

As for D'Anna, I'm willing to give it until next week before we know if she's definitely going to stay behind. No idea why she kept quiet about Ellen, but that'll likely come up. My hope is that Saul's realization that Ellen is the Fifth will lead to a bit of next week's episode being set on Earth. Hopefully in the ensuing course of events D'Anna will come along.

jbreaken
January 18th, 2009, 11:26 AM
As for D'Anna, I'm willing to give it until next week before we know if she's definitely going to stay behind. No idea why she kept quiet about Ellen, but that'll likely come up. My hope is that Saul's realization that Ellen is the Fifth will lead to a bit of next week's episode being set on Earth. Hopefully in the ensuing course of events D'Anna will come along.

The commentary on scifi.com said that they only got the actress who play D'Anna for that episode... she is done :(

Berg417448
January 18th, 2009, 11:41 AM
Did we ever find out were that note came from?

Ron Moore said this about the note in an old interview:

“One plot point that may or may not be resolved on camera is, at the end of the miniseries, who left the note for Adama telling him there are 12 Cylons? Don't despair, though, as Moore said he's always considered it to be Baltar who left the note. Moore described it in the context of the adjacent scene in which Six and Baltar are walking down a corridor and Baltar is contemplating his guilt about playing a part in the human genocide. He expresses a desire to do something good, hence the note.”

http://www.tvweek.com/blogs/blink/2007/07/battlestar_secrets_revealed_to.php

madk99
January 18th, 2009, 12:04 PM
Suspicion is that Ellen is really just an older #6. Can Tyrol be a young #1??

Perhaps the 7 are copies of some of the original cylons, of which there were billions and only five survive. The 7 were created each from a template of an original cylon. However, the resurrection technology was never quite perfected. Limitations included not being able to RBF (reproduce by fracking), not being able to remember the original template. Perhaps this hole in there psyche caused all manner of psychosis. Eventually it was determined that it was easier to prohibit all thought about their progenitors, thus the programmed restriction about thinking about the final 5.

If fact the terminology "final 5" always bothered me. This theory is consistent with that nomenclature. They are the final 5 cylons that survived after billions and billions(channeling Sagan) were killed in the holocaust 2k y.o.

Schrodinger's Cat
January 18th, 2009, 12:16 PM
The intro to 4.0 said "Twelve Cylon Models", followed by "Seven are known" and "Four live in secret" and finally "One will be revealed".

The intro to seasons 1 and 2 said that the Cylon's "have a plan."

It seems that the intros are only as accurate as the information provided to the people who designed them.

DigiFluid
January 18th, 2009, 12:30 PM
The intro to seasons 1 and 2 said that the Cylon's "have a plan."

It seems that the intros are only as accurate as the information provided to the people who designed them.

In production:

Battlestar Galactica: The Plan

Schrodinger's Cat
January 18th, 2009, 12:32 PM
isn't it notable that Saul/six can have a child but Saul/ellan did not?

I don't remember anything that stated that Saul and Ellen ever tried to have children.

Schrodinger's Cat
January 18th, 2009, 12:34 PM
In production:

Battlestar Galactica: The Plan

I forgot about that part.

Berg417448
January 18th, 2009, 12:54 PM
This interview of Kate Vernon would seem to indicate that Ellen is not an aged 6. She says that #Six was not modeled after Ellen.

http://www.accesshollywood.com/dish-of-salt-who-is-battlestar-galacticas-final-cylon_video_940001

magictrick
January 18th, 2009, 01:11 PM
Reading this thread made me realize how many unanswered questions I have about the series at this point. Can't wait to see how it all gets wrapped up and how everything fits together.

What I really want to know is what Kara is supposed to be.

Arative
January 18th, 2009, 01:50 PM
Wouldn't Tigh recognize his wife as a young 6 when he first saw her? Or when Six first appeared in the fleet in season 1?

Arative
January 18th, 2009, 02:01 PM
I've been toying with a new theory over the past day or so.

A pretty common theme in the series is that this has all happened before, it will all happen again.

Now I think that the main characters might represent the 12 Lords of Kobol. Adama is obviously Zeus, Roslin is Hera. Now if you remember from season 2, when they were searching for the Tomb of Athena, the Sharon model pointed out a ledge where Athena threw herself off in despair over what had become of humanity. Dee would fit the Athena archetype as she killed herself over what would become of humanity. I'm not sure what other Lords the main characters would represent yet. Except perhaps Starbuck is the 13th Lord that no one talks about.

the fifth man
January 18th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Wouldn't Tigh recognize his wife as a young 6 when he first saw her? Or when Six first appeared in the fleet in season 1?

Very valid points.

cameron1
January 18th, 2009, 03:09 PM
i have been scanning for theories from these threads about kobol, caprica, earth, the thirteen colonies, where the five come from, and the seven, where kara fits in, and what the overall history is, etc...

and, if each colony was a different world over spans of thousands of years, then the story arc seems too vast to speculate the intended, written history and how the story shall unfold from it.

but it's tempting...

i hope the crew doesn't linger too long on the emotional fallout of Earth and gets on with the plot, and some answers.

in the meantime, if i'm going to resist speculating, i'm at least going to air my questions, questions everyone else has probably already asked:

why do four of the final five not remember their long past?

kara, as harbinger of death...i thot it meant she lead them to a dead earth, but then she brings it up again in this episode--does this spell doom for galactica and its fleet?

when d'anna witnessed the final five and they were in cloaks of light, did they appear that way just to look cool and supernatural, or was/is there anything more to it? something that has to do with 'the plan' that was thrown at us in the first couple seasons...

there were many hints and implications of prophecy in this show, told thru a book. now that laura is bookburning and baltar is in labcoat, is the story done with the spiritual, religious, and supernatural tones to the show?

when saul tigh first started listening to imaginary music, i thot he lost his marbles. now that he is superimposing ellen on 6, does that mean 6 is a young ellen?

what's baltars relationship with his imaginary #6? it was never answered and they spent a lot of time with it, implying something grand.


a pretty good interview:
http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html

sunonmars
January 18th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Well I have ideas about whats going on but it would take ages to do so.

How did Ellen Tigh get into the fleet, it obvious there is more at work here than is being said. Did Ellen Tigh actually die on Caprica at the airport? How did she get on the rising star when no one claims to have seen her, did she know all along of the attack?

Now what about the theory that Ellen is actually a 6, i think thats correct, sort of, Ellen and 6 have the same personalities, manipulative, highly sexual and strong. I actually think the final five created the 7 cylons. 6 is clearly another version of Ellen, you notice that 6 is the only one we've seen in distinct number of guises, Gina, Nathalie, Caprica, Why is that?. Ellen is the leader of the 5, the same way 6 is actually the strongest of the 7.

Which brings us to what Ellen said in the scene "everything is in place, we will be REBORN" I think they were actually the human Ellen and Saul. That tends to sound like she know the destruction was coming, how? Did she betray that world. We were told the final cylon would climb for the light out of darkness, seeking redemption? For what? what did Ellen do that needs redemption, was she the one who actually betrayed Caprica and not Baltar?

Mongoletsi
January 18th, 2009, 05:08 PM
How did Ellen Tigh get into the fleet, it obvious there is more at work here than is being said. Did Ellen Tigh actually die on Caprica at the airport? How did she get on the rising star when no one claims to have seen her, did she know all along of the attack?

Indeed. But more like; how did any of the Final Five end up in the right place at the right time...


Now what about the theory that Ellen is actually a 6, i think thats correct

Sorry mate, Ellen is definitely not a Six. According to RDM and whatshernamewhoplaysher.


Which brings us to what Ellen said in the scene "everything is in place, we will be REBORN" I think they were actually the human Ellen and Saul.

They were humans living on an entirely Cylon planet? No cigar for you newbie ;)


That tends to sound like she know the destruction was coming, how? Did she betray that world. We were told the final cylon would climb for the light out of darkness, seeking redemption? For what? what did Ellen do that needs redemption, was she the one who actually betrayed Caprica and not Baltar?

Now that IS an interesting point. I'd like to see how that turns out!

gforce99
January 18th, 2009, 07:44 PM
I'm confused. Aren't most (if not all) of the Cylons now working with the humans?

Okay, so Earth sucks, I understand that. So, why don't they just go back to a world that they have already visited that seemed to support life. Like New Caprica or even Kolob?

Help me out here people!

Thanks

;)

Corona
January 18th, 2009, 08:12 PM
And now for something completely different!

Roslin kneels and sees a small plant which she plucks and brings home.

What does that plant look like to you?

It looks like a little pot plant to me!

Do I have an overactive imagination or a good eye?

Night Marshal
January 18th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Wow I have to say I'm very impressed by the acting, and the show in general more than I have been since the first season. That said I don't think I will ever watch these episodes after there first showing there just too sad and messed up. Great TV but its just not in a place I really don't care to go. I want to know how the story ends but once I know that I'm happy to put this book down for good.

pbellosom
January 18th, 2009, 11:37 PM
And now for something completely different!

Roslin kneels and sees a small plant which she plucks and brings home.

What does that plant look like to you?

It looks like a little pot plant to me!

Do I have an overactive imagination or a good eye?

So I wasn't the only one then?

omgpix
January 19th, 2009, 02:59 AM
Too lazy to go through the entire thread, so I don't know if this has already been posted.


Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

Think we'll be seeing Ellen in the future?

g.o.d
January 19th, 2009, 03:14 AM
Too lazy to go through the entire thread, so I don't know if this has already been posted.



Think we'll be seeing Ellen in the future?

yes, she will be in 7 of 9 remaining episodes

Mongoletsi
January 19th, 2009, 03:48 AM
If you mean "weed" when you say "pot" then no, it looks nothing like it at all mate. Given it's tiny with a massive flower. Anybody who's ever grown it will tell you that... erm, I mean, I've been told that, erm...

Blackened
January 19th, 2009, 03:56 AM
After season 3, I kept thinking "is everyone a cylon?". It would tie in really nicely to "All this has happened before and will happen again". Say everyone is a Cylon and can resurrect, Kara leads humanity to its literal end (everyone dies), everyone gets resurrected back at the start with no knowledge as to who they were, reform the twelve colonies and do it over and over and over again.

gitan
January 19th, 2009, 04:17 AM
2 Questions :
How many childrens from Cylon/Human do we have now ?
Cylons can grow old ?

Hypochondriac
January 19th, 2009, 06:38 AM
It's been so long since I've seen the show, I no longer care about the turmoil the characters are going through. I was laughing when dee killed herself, I'm guessing they all are cylons, and most die.

Mongoletsi
January 19th, 2009, 07:09 AM
It's been so long since I've seen the show, I no longer care about the turmoil the characters are going through. I was laughing when dee killed herself, I'm guessing they all are cylons, and most die.

Thank you for sharing.

Corona
January 19th, 2009, 08:29 AM
It's been so long since I've seen the show, I no longer care about the turmoil the characters are going through. I was laughing when dee killed herself, I'm guessing they all are cylons, and most die.

I quit watching many shows like The Sopranos which did the extended hiatus. I seriously lose interest.

Then there are some like BSG which I come back to and find myself rewarded with some of the finest television ever produced.
[mod snip]

madk99
January 19th, 2009, 09:09 AM
Then there are some like BSG which I come back to and find myself rewarded with some of the finest television ever produced.

Why do you feel it important to pee on others parade, Hypochondriac?

After your first sentence I no longer care what you 'guess' will happen to the crew.

Hey, now. This is a free speech zone. Peeing on others parades is perfectly acceptable. But don't start going and peeing on other posters directly.

yuck. I don't like the way this is devolving -- but it does remind me of something I thought Roslin should have said during the book burning scene.

"Pyth on Pythia!!"

Skydiver
January 19th, 2009, 09:40 AM
Why?? Because those prosthetic devices can give you a wedgie??
no,

Wedge Antilles, who happened to be the only 'minor' character that made it through all 3 star wars movies (the first ones, not the latter ones)

thus he ended up being a constant observer to the making of history. the 'little guy' that's in it with the 'greats' that has a first hand POV to the making of history. Wedge fought along side of and with Luke and the other rebels....Gaeta may simply be nothing more than that, an observer that is on the scene of history, yet isn't one of the major named participants


After season 3, I kept thinking "is everyone a cylon?". It would tie in really nicely to "All this has happened before and will happen again". Say everyone is a Cylon and can resurrect, Kara leads humanity to its literal end (everyone dies), everyone gets resurrected back at the start with no knowledge as to who they were, reform the twelve colonies and do it over and over and over again.

that kinda makes sense :)

Like the last scene of hte series will be a 'flash forward' a couple thousand years, to a idyllic settinig of New Caprica (or maybe they just call it caprica) and wow, it's about to be attacked, oh noes!!!!!

2 Questions :
How many childrens from Cylon/Human do we have now ?
Cylons can grow old ?
they must be able to grow old. adama said that he's worked with Tigh for years and would have noticed if Tigh hadn't grown old

Jeffala
January 19th, 2009, 09:42 AM
I was laughing when dee killed herself

Wow. I had a mini-freakout when she killed herself. I was trying to convince myself for 5 minutes that someone else had snuck in and killed her. I was genuinely shocked.

Skydiver
January 19th, 2009, 10:22 AM
it was definitely not foreshadowed in any way.

usually there's some 'gimme' action. some interaction between the characters, some foreshadowing iwth a gun, some 'suicides are up amongst the fleet' then you see dee with her gun....things like that that telegraph intentions.

didn't do that here, which is what makes the show fun to watch, little to no telegraphing of upcoming actions

Lantien84
January 19th, 2009, 10:46 AM
Wow I have to say I'm very impressed by the acting, and the show in general more than I have been since the first season. That said I don't think I will ever watch these episodes after there first showing there just too sad and messed up. Great TV but its just not in a place I really don't care to go. I want to know how the story ends but once I know that I'm happy to put this book down for good.
Have to agree with that sentiment. The entire series has been an unending nightmare, its like watching a train wreck that you can't turn away from. I was very nearly at my limit with Razor, but I'm going to stick it out and see how it ends, doubt it will be a happy ending, in fact the way the show is progressing a bitter-sweet ending might even be wishful thinking.

LoneStar1836
January 19th, 2009, 10:54 AM
it was definitely not foreshadowed in any way.

usually there's some 'gimme' action. some interaction between the characters, some foreshadowing iwth a gun, some 'suicides are up amongst the fleet' then you see dee with her gun....things like that that telegraph intentions.

didn't do that here, which is what makes the show fun to watch, little to no telegraphing of upcoming actionsYeah, I didn't see it coming.

Though I did find her over happiness after she got back to Galactica rather bizarre. It should have raised suspicion that something was up, but after seeing the "previously on" with all the Lee/Dee replay, I was like please don't dredge all that up again on the show...so I was thinking more that direction than Dee offing herself out of despair and hopelessness. So for me it was misdirection.


Her death was quite shocking. Though I get why she did it. Even though she always seemed like the happiest/most optimistic person on the ship. So I won't say it was a wasted death just for pure shock value as there was meaning/impact behind her death.

Jeffala
January 19th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Her death was quite shocking. Though I get why she did it. Even though she always seemed like the happiest/most optimistic person on the ship. So I won't say it was a wasted death just for pure shock value as there was meaning/impact behind her death.

Yeah. If the person who always sees the silver lining can get so broken and lost that she sees the only way out is to kill herself, it tells a lot about the morale of the fleet.

jaredh
January 19th, 2009, 01:59 PM
I think I'm starting to see where this is going...

Here are the 12 cylons:

Cavil, Six, Sharon, Leoben, Doral, Simon, D'anna (the 7)
Tigh, Ellen, Tyrol, Anders, Torry (the 5)

Has no one noticed the Sci-Fi site lists all of these as cast and 11 non-cylons?

Adama, Roslin, Baltar, Helo, Cally, Dee, Gaeta, Lee, Romo, Zarek, Kara

This parallel makes me wonder...is that 12th human reference Billy or (more likely) Cottle?

So the chronology of events that everyone tends to accept appears to be:

1 - LoK create the cylons 1.0
2 - Cylons 1.0 rebel destroy kobol
3 - 13 tribes (12 LoK and 1 Cylon) go off to settle other places
4 - Cylons 1.0 settle Earth, 12 Tribes settle colonies
5 - LoK or something from the colonies finds Earth, wipes it out, some cylons escape (5 or 12, TBD...but 12 being the central number, seems more likely)
6 - The remaining member of the Cylons 1.0 find the Cylons 2.0 that the colonies built
7 - the series starts not long after

Now, consder the personalities of the humans verus our 12 dear cylons. Alot of the humans and cylons appear to have matching models:

Adama --> Cavil (defiant real leader)
Helo --> Sharon (both tied from early on)
Baltar --> Six (both tied from the start)
Zarack --> Leoben (both whack jobs)
Cottle --> Simon (both medical)
Cally --> Tyrol (tied)
Kara --> Tigh (tied alot at the beginning, both short tempered, effective leaders when necessary, albeit undependable)
Romo --> Ellen (the silent ones...always around, lurking...slipping in at the best/worst time)
Lee --> Anders (both bold, brazen, powerful characters, natural leaders)
Dee --> D'anna (both lose hope)
Gaeta --> Doral (strong assist types)
Roslin --> Torry (manipulative, controlling, wanna-be leaders)

With this type of parallel, it starts leading me towards wondering if the Cylons (1.0) fashioned themselves (or were fashioned by their creators) after the original Lords of Kobol...and the 12 key human figures on Galactica are either the 12 LoK or some manifestation of them. The whole kara thing really starts to call into question her humanity...and thus everyone else's. What if there is a missing step?

It all keeps coming back to these 12 Lords of Kobol. Twelve, twelve, twelve. It's all over the place in this story. These 12 lords, and their offspring/creations, are the story. How the original 12 interact with their descendants, whether they are immortals playing creation games, is all yet to be fully realized....but I'm highly suspecting we are going towards these 12 Lords playing a big hand in the cycle of life...that they manifest themselves in every cycle inside that cycle's beings, and either consciously or unconsciously direct the flow of life. Based on all the things that have come into place for all these characters to survive to this point, one has to start to wonder if something bigger than them isn't shaping the outcome.

The fact Leoben ran from Kara, showing fear for the first time from any of the 7 cylons over anything other than death is significant. She is more than human, more than even cylon as they know cylon to be....she is a Lord of Kobol manifestation....something that possibly cannot even die, just be reborn (my current theory is that the LoK don't die, they are just reborn into the current cycle of life)

madk99
January 19th, 2009, 03:12 PM
no,

Wedge Antilles, who happened to be the only 'minor' character that made it through all 3 star wars movies (the first ones, not the latter ones)

thus he ended up being a constant observer to the making of history. the 'little guy' that's in it with the 'greats' that has a first hand POV to the making of history.



Ummmmmm. Yes, I know. (He was Rosencrantz and/or Gildenstern)

entil2001
January 19th, 2009, 03:46 PM
The previous episode ended with the Colonials and renegade Cylons standing amidst the ruins of a world called Earth, just moments after the remnants of Humanity celebrated their potential deliverance. The better part of this episode is devoted to the psychological fallout of that crushing blow, and the results are stunning, to say the least.

This is not a happy episode. In fact, this could be one of the most depressing hours of television in years. Not one person is happy, not one person is remotely satisfied, and not one person is left unscathed. What makes this such a powerful and perfect episode is that the audience can understand the characters' reactions. In a sense, we're all reeling from the realization that Earth is not what it was supposed to be, and that there is no obvious direction for the future. Worse, they all know that Father Cavil's faction of the Cylons will be showing up sooner or later, and there will be no magical resolution to that problem.

Dee's suicide is shocking in the moment it happens, but after re-watching the episode, the writers did a very good job of leading up to it. Dee's loss of hope is palpable from the very beginning, and her "date" with Lee seems as much about saying goodbye as it is about pushing Lee in the right direction before checking out. If it doesn't seem to quite make sense, I think that's intentional; Dee is not in her right mind, so it's hard to grasp her rationale in detail. It's simply obvious that the discovery of a formerly Cylon-populated, ruined husk of Earth annihilated her mental stability.

Dee is essentially our window into the psychological torture experienced by the entire Colonial fleet. Her death is the break between the façade of civility and the unbearable truth. Adama completes the picture; those who look at Dee's decision and wonder if that's what they should do as well. Frankly, I'm shocked that there weren't more suicides. If Adama had pushed Tigh into killing him, I imagine it would have all been over.

As it is, there's now a massive power vacuum. Roslin has all but checked out and the primary religion is under serious question. Lee could make a case that he should stand in Roslin's place, but I expect Zarek to make a move sooner or later. After all, he was the one who pushed Lee into the limelight in the first place; he has definite ambitions. I also expect Baltar's new religion to become a lot more prominent in the days to come, as the Colonials cast about for something to believe in.

Amidst the crushing despair, there were amazing revelations. Nearly everyone is taking Earth for granted, but it may not be what it seems. Baltar and the others conclude that the thirteenth tribe consisted of Cylons, both Centurions and "skinjobs", and that they arrived on this particular world and called it "Earth". Does that mean that it is, in fact, Earth?

It's quite possible, given the cyclic nature of the story, that thousands of years ago, they were also searching for Earth, hunted down by their own Cylons. Who's to say they didn't end up finding a burned-out Earth themselves? They could have simply found a new world, called that Earth in memory of the "original". And then, like now, they could have gone about the business of merging Humans and Cylons into a race of beings like Hera and Nicholas.

After all, the bones were Cylon, but why does that necessarily mean that they were Cylons as we know them? They, too, appear to have lost the ability to resurrect, or the survival of the Final Five wouldn't have been so extraordinary. And because Tigh and the others were known since they were younger, and they aged like normal human beings, it stands to reason that their own resurrection was not in the usual Cylon style.

This harkens back to one of my original theories, one I've mentioned several times: that the Final Five are Human/Cylon hybrids from the previous cycle who managed to persist until the next cycle. How that happened is still to be determined, but it must have involved some kind of regenerative program. Perhaps it was something that the Five sent into space before the end came. One might suspect that the nuclear destruction of Earth came from the previous cycle's analogue to Father Cavil and his Cylon faction.

Something tells me that the restoration of the Final Five is directly connected to Kara's restoration. Kara was dead, her Viper destroyed. That being the case, how was she reborn? Everyone assumes that Earth is completely dead, but someone (or something) had to resurrect Kara and her Viper. Perhaps something that didn't see or know the difference between man and machine? Something that was programmed or designed to recreate members of a Human/Cylon hybrid species?

If so, the whole question of the fifth Cylon's identity becomes moot. That individual is no longer a factor; how they came to be in this time is a lot more important. Kara's very existence is more important than Ellen Tigh's true nature. Piecing together the puzzle of what the Final Five really are, how they survived, and how and when they came to intersect with the current Cylon population is the major mystery to be resolved.

Not that the question of the final Cylon wasn't front and center. This is another aspect of Dee's suicide; they were clearly using Dee as a red herring for the revelation of the fifth. The same applies to Kara (though, admittedly, I believe she's connected to the Final Five in some way). Just the fact that the writers were able to keep the central mysteries front and center, while dealing with the despair of the fleet was such depth, is a testimony to the excellence of the episode.

From the script to the performances to the direction to the score, everything came together to make this one of the best episodes of the series in a very long time. This is easily the best episode of the season, even topping the powerful "Revelations". What makes this truly astounding is the realization that there are nine more episodes to go until the end.


John Keegan
Reprinted with permission
Original source: c. Critical Myth, 2009
All rights reserved
Link: http://www.criticalmyth.com

medegnosj
January 19th, 2009, 06:21 PM
I think it's possible that we Earth humans are *all* cylons, and have since been classified as such by our Children To the Stars: The Twelve Colonies.

Theory:

The "cylons" in this time period of BSG are originally *us* (homo sapiens sapiens).

The "humans" in this time period are our children living throughout the Twelve Colonies (homo sapiens colonius)-- probably evolved, through selective breeding and clonal manipulation, to be slightly different enough from H. sapiens sapiens to be detectable when their DNA is tested.

The "revered Final Five" are The Original Clones-- clones of a select few member of our H. sapiens sapiens family, originally created sans cybernetics (if they actually had them at all) by Old Earth "cylon" creators (scientists? business moguls? BOTH??)

The 'regular' seven human-like models are either: a) cybernetically-enhanced copies of individuals from the later H. sapiens colonius tree of humanity, or b) cybernetically-enhanced copies of 'stored' individuals from the earlier H. sapiens sapiens line. Either way, they've been created as cybernetic versions of seven differring aspects of 'current' humanity-- albeit complete with glowing spines noticable during the practice of, uhm, certain activities...

I think that somewhere during the multi-thousand-year exodus from Earth, the name "cylon" in BSG's timeline came to mean anyone or anything NOT being of H. sapiens colonius make-up-- which, unfortunately, also included their long-lost brothers from a missing 13th colony, who in turn may actually wind up being their frakkin' long-lost PARENTS.

Toss in a few mechanical beasties created at different times and in different conflicts, and the statement " Kill that frakkin' cylon!!" becomes nothing more than word salad, and "cylon" could be used on both man and machince at the same time... and from both sides..!

As to what the name "cylon" meant to the people of old pre-attack Earth, or to the people of the failed colony of Kobol many years afterward- well, who knows..?

HAL2100
January 19th, 2009, 09:18 PM
The fact that Starbuck will 'lead them all to their death' doesn't mean the end of life or destruction. It could be figurative in that she leads them to end their preconceptions of things and what not.

gforce99
January 19th, 2009, 09:35 PM
Can't they just go back to New Caprica or even Kobol now?

They weren't radioactive and the only reason they left was that the Cylons showed up. Now that we are one big happy family, thats not a problem.

Right?

L-S
January 19th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Space Humans find Earth, see it's a pile of rubble. Feel crampy. Pretty girl cries, laughs, dies. Not happiness! Not happiness!

Shocking stuff, painful. Poor Dee. Poor us! What do we, the viewer, take from this?

Starbuck, our hero, our anarchist drunk, is a tool, a machine, a re-animated gollum of some sort. We cheered for her, hoped for her, spurred her on, wanted her to succeed, enjoyed her excess, and were moved by her pain.

And she's a frog. Or a dog, or a blender. Or 'toaster.'

It's a bit of viciousness that the producer/writer Moore is putting us through. I have a certain respect for him, as he's making a superlative art/theater. Chekhov is no fun to read, either.

Critical notes:

Don't like Ellen Tigh as 5th (hidden human-type gollum cylon).


What, they all have to know each other? All have to be in the same family?

Would've been more interesting to have it be a nobody on a previously unremarkable ship.

Too much soapy nonsense, too much coincidence, too much 'all of the same.' Like in the season 2.5 episode, the terrorist stand-off in the bar - it's Lee Adama, Kara Thrace, Billy the niceboy, Dee - the gang's always too much here.

How many insane things can happen to one person? Or one group of people? I don't favor the strains of dramatic credulity.

Fair criticisms. Praises abound - brave, excoriating, soul-searching, scraping the dry bed at the bottom of the character's beings. Many thanks for a grand series, and a tremendously upsetting episode.

madk99
January 19th, 2009, 09:59 PM
The fact that Starbuck will 'lead them all to their death' doesn't mean the end of life or destruction. It could be figurative in that she leads them to end their preconceptions of things and what not.

Exactly, Kinda like the upcoming Mayan calendar 2012 thing. The end is just the end of this cycle and the circle with turn again.

Although this was a dark (but excellent) episode I do think there will be just enough "happy ending" in the series to leave us with just enough warm fuzzies at its conclusion. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying RDM et al. will be unrealistic and load sunshine up our tailpipes. But he and the writers have done such a fantastic job of mixing up the good and the bad. He front loads every happy feeling in the world at finding Earth then pulls out the rug. Oppositely, we were emotionally drained as the RTF was physically drained in 33. Then he throws us a ray of sunshine in the final shot as Roslin adds one. He even gave us the completely unrealistic but deliciously satisfying finish of not one, not two, but THREE basestars with the demise of the Peggy.

I think TPTB understand the psyche of the audience and what we need. Real life is messy, fleeting, chaotic, sometimes ugly, sometimes beatiful, but always unpredictable. At the end of the day a person wants to say "yeah, but it ended well."

Jeffala
January 20th, 2009, 03:33 AM
Can't they just go back to New Caprica or even Kobol now?

They weren't radioactive and the only reason they left was that the Cylons showed up. Now that we are one big happy family, thats not a problem.

Right?

Except that Cavil's group still wants to wipe the humans out of existence.

Blackened
January 20th, 2009, 06:27 AM
I liked Sam saying "let us not talk falsely now the hours getting late" from all along the watchtower. It was like a commentary on the fact this really is the end of the series - "We're nearing the end of the series, and we're not gonna screw around".

VSS
January 20th, 2009, 07:27 AM
Hi- just another BSG newbie- I've only seen the series twice and clearly that's not enough :p- but I have some questions:


Nothing in the show suggests anything like that could happen. That's a very SciFi idea, and BSG doesn't do time travel, aliens, etc. that shows like Star Trek do. The only Sci Fi elements are robots turning on their masters, and space travel. If your idea turned out to be true, it'd be a huge disappointment and betrayal of everything the show is.


Well, how science-oriented is BSG supposed to be, exactly? I agree that they wanted to stay away from the more outrageous scifi themes. But if they gave any though to science at all, something is up with what was found on Earth. It doesn't fit.

The ruins did not look 2000 years old. There were dead plants on them. Skeletons in the sand? If cylons are indistinguishable from humans those skeletons would have been gone long ago. The attack appeared to have taken place when the colonies were wiped out or maybe when the toasters first rebelled- I was shocked when Baltar said 2000 years...



waht if 'they're all cylons' = your planet was going to be destroyed, so we downloaded the consciousnesses of every one into mechanical constructs as a way to preserve the race.

they're, for lack of a better analogy, all Harlan's Robots, perfect duplicates of those that died, so perfect that they're as good as human

the cylons 1.0 made the cylons 2.0 (1.0 being the five, 2.0 being the seven), the 2.0 cylons rose up against the 1.0 cylons, massacred them because they couldn't handle being lesser, or maybe the 2.0 knew that the 1.0 wanted to kill them.

a greater force resurrected the 1.0 cylons (the humans) into constructed bodies) and implanted memories into them of 2000 years ofhistory to cover up for the removal of the knowledge that htey are machines.

despite that reprogramming, the 1.0 have come to earth because some fragment of memory remained.

the 1.0 cylons/five WERE on earth, but i don't think it was 2000 years ago. the wreckage on the planet is too defined to be 2000 years old. 200 maybe, but not 2000

the timeline is nothing but revisionist history

I think you're on to something there... I think the Final Five created the seven and were overthrown by them more recently just as we were.

But I do think the planet was nuked 2000 years ago by cylons. Nuclear radiation doesn't seem to bother cylons- they are, after all, apparently thriving on Caprica. They then replaced the humans on earth and yet wanted to be like humans- and created a new civilization including the version 2.0 as you mentioned, who infiltrated the the twelve colonies and that's where the 7 skinjob models came from (D'Anna even says she wants to stay with "the bones of my ancestors."), and why they suddenly appeared as if from no where. After all, the colonies may not have known where Earth was- but the Earth inhabitants knew where the colonies were. Remember the beacon? It was also very old and clearly designed to kill cylons and spare humans. I think the 7 killed everyone off, including the Final Five, because "children are meant to replace their parents." It's cyclical and it doesn't matter who is human or cylon, it matters only who created whom.

Although it might explain why the 7 aren't supposed to talk about the Five. Not only are they the creators or "parents"- the children killed them off. Hard to make claims of moral superiority over humans when parricide is the foundation of one's civilization...




**** What defines "Cylon"?? ****
We know that Cylons cannot sexually reproduce. Or more accurately we know that the 7 cannot. The 5 do not seem to have this restriction.
We know that in the original miniseries Balter discovered compounds in the Leoben cremation that revealed the sample to be synthetic in nature. This was never referred to again and Baltar had to reinvent "the amazing nuclear cylon detector". This technology was supposedly related to cylon sensitivity to certain types of radiation, like that seen in the neighborhood of Ragnar or a plutonium core of the nuke. This technology is found to work correctly by identifying Boomer.
Now we see that the bones of the dead are found easily to be Cylon. They tested many samples and they are all found to by Cylon. But WHAT DEFINES CYLON-NESS? (Cylonocity? Cylonitude? )


Yeah, a bit surprising when Baltar manages to test two hundred skeletons over the course of a few days and find that they were cylons- and no one says "Hey! I thought you couldn't do that!"

But if the difference between cylon and human is really only how we react to various forms of radiation, whose to say what's synthetic and what isn't? As for the 7 not being able to reproduce- as in Jurassic Park- for safety's sake that's how they were designed (by the Five or their generation). I never believed toasters could figure out over the course of forty years how to make skinjobs. I don't think they did- I think the Final Five did it.

BobBot
January 20th, 2009, 08:47 AM
Well, how science-oriented is BSG supposed to be, exactly? I agree that they wanted to stay away from the more outrageous scifi themes. But if they gave any though to science at all, something is up with what was found on Earth. It doesn't fit.

The ruins did not look 2000 years old. There were dead plants on them. Skeletons in the sand? If cylons are indistinguishable from humans those skeletons would have been gone long ago. The attack appeared to have taken place when the colonies were wiped out- I was shocked when Baltar said 2000 years...

Yeah, a bit surprising when Baltar manages to test two hundred skeletons over the course of a few days and find that they were cylons- and no one says "Hey! I thought you couldn't do that!"


No reason to think the ruins weren't 2000 years old, or that skeletons wouldn't survive in sand. We find skeletons and other tissues that are more than 2000 years old. We don't know what conditions prevaled over 2000 years. The skeletons may have been frozen for most of that time, or dessicated, or the radiation might have sterilised most of the planet (so no bacteria or animals to consume it). I don't get why people think the ruins didn't look 2000 years old. What should ruins look like, after being nuked and left abandoned? They'll be collapsed, they'll be overgrown. When we see ruins in tourist sites, archaeologists have excavated them and cleaned them up.

Baltar could have had help to test the skeletons, and the test didn't necessarily take very long and could have done many skeletons at once. We also know Cylon blood is different to human blood, so we can assume the bone marrow (where blood is made) is different. And maybe the Cylon rebels helped with the testing and identification. So really, there's nothing to suggest that there isn't valid science, it's just that the show doesn't go into the details because it's only the result that's valid. Star Trek would give monologues involving lots of technobabble, but BSG doesn't.

Skydiver
January 20th, 2009, 09:45 AM
I don't think it's really been 2000 years. We see the ruins looking pretty intact. You could tell what some of them had been.

then look at earth. Where Jamestown was buried by and reclaimed by the river in just a few hundred years, where abandoned farm houses built in the 1800's are piles of stone on the ground in a little over 100 years. where parts of the roman ruins of Londinium (the original London) are only intact because they were found and are preserved...and they had to be dug out in the first place.
Look at Chernobyl and towns near there and how fallen apart they are in just 20 years. There's no way those ruins would be that intact in 2000 years. wind, rain, storms, silting...the planet would reclaim its own. And this is stuff that's already been weakened by the blast

maybe it's just poor visual effects and they needed there to be recoginzible ruins, but look at how little exists in our world from the year zero, and the items that do exist really only do because humans continue to use and maintain them

L-S
January 20th, 2009, 10:27 AM
According to (and expanded from) comments by the Moore fellow on the hulu commentary for this episode:

Kobol = Cradle of Civilization - Greece, Athens, Mesopotamia, Sumer, Ur - Inana and Mithra - (the beginning of the modern species, and a long time ago).

Or, Eden, or Olympus, prior to Prometheus (who stole the creator's magic, and gave it to his fellow humans).

Humans lived with the Gods, 'Prometheus stole fire,' - humans became technological - used technology to refashion nature - to create something very much like itself. (Like Apple does with its machines).

A war ensues between the creator and the created (as with the humans and Gods in the first round). Human and Cylon bash-bash. Everybody leaves.

According to Moore, the 12 tribes of humans take off for planets, one for each (neat trick); the Cylon creation take off for one planet (they call "Nerf".. Earf. Earth. Why not "Cyclone? Cyclonia? Cylon-ville? Levittown?).

And then?

Well, a lot of silly nonsense, clearly. So, we're being pulled this and that way -

Are they all machine descendants? If Starbuck, our drunken hero, is just a replicant, then who cares about any of it? Is our lovely Dualla really gone for good!

All herky-jerky questions, coming out of the soapy drama.

The best of the show was always its analysis, or really, its demonstration of our self-deceiving, self-contradicting nature; that, coupled with our ability to use technology - and to be its slave; our native spiritual nature - but the difficulty of pinning down the details of the ephemeral...

So, as they end, I hope they let much mystery survive.

An over-explained ending will do no good for anyone, long term. I think they're pro enough to know that.

What a nice blend of Hindu eternal creation/destruction cycle, Catholic mysticism, Protestant work ethic, Greek pantheism, and Roman law...

Neat-o.

BobBot
January 20th, 2009, 11:59 AM
I don't think it's really been 2000 years. We see the ruins looking pretty intact. You could tell what some of them had been.

then look at earth. Where Jamestown was buried by and reclaimed by the river in just a few hundred years, where abandoned farm houses built in the 1800's are piles of stone on the ground in a little over 100 years. where parts of the roman ruins of Londinium (the original London) are only intact because they were found and are preserved...and they had to be dug out in the first place.
Look at Chernobyl and towns near there and how fallen apart they are in just 20 years. There's no way those ruins would be that intact in 2000 years. wind, rain, storms, silting...the planet would reclaim its own. And this is stuff that's already been weakened by the blast

maybe it's just poor visual effects and they needed there to be recoginzible ruins, but look at how little exists in our world from the year zero, and the items that do exist really only do because humans continue to use and maintain them

I don't agree. The main reason we don't have much left from 2000 years ago or so (there was no year 0!) is because those locations have been in use continuously since they were established. Settlements grow, and evolve through a slow process of remodelling either by removing what already exists or just by building over it. That's why you find Roman ruins under streets, or old medieval streets under churches.

Farmhouses in the 1800s were built of totally different materials to today's high-tech buildings. We have skyscrapers, which need to resist huge weights and torques on all axes. Even weakened by nuclear blasts (and remember, we don't know the megatonnage or proximity of the blasts) buildings can survive. There is a bank in Hiroshima very close to ground zero, and it is still recognisable. Across the Tay river, the old railway line supports have survived untouched for over a hundred years, even through the bridge collapsed due to poor construction just after it was built. There's a WWII PoW camp and command centre near where I live, and they survive with even their glass windows intact!

Silting requires running rivers etc, and these wouldn't cover over skyscrapers. Maybe the streets inland are deep in silt, but it wouldn't ever become deep enough to bury skyscrapers. As for Chernobyl, I haven't personally been, but it's not in bad condition really. I'm not saying the buildings are habitable, there's probably a lot of rot in the plaster and wood and insects/animals will have taken their toll (but these don't consume the glass and metals of larger, western buildings) But just because the structures we see in BSG are standing doesn't mean they are inhabitable either.

I'll agree to disagree with everyone who thinks the ruins are unrealistic, that Dee is a Cylon, Ellen is the Cylon leader, Kara is from an alternate universe and those who think the final five have yet to be revealed. Which seems to be many of the people who post in this forum... :eek:

Mongoletsi
January 20th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Exactly what BobBot said!!

smortt
January 20th, 2009, 02:31 PM
Exactly what BobBot said!!

yes!! I second that

Mongoletsi
January 20th, 2009, 02:41 PM
Btw, if there was a massive cataclysmic nuclear event (or series of such) which affected the entire globe, I think it would mean that - as everything is irradiated - stuff would take much longer to rot, as pretty much everything bar a few isolated/tiny pockets of low-level life would be gone. You cannae have rot w'out rotters!

I could be wrong, but that's my understanding of how such an event would stop the rot.

Skydiver
January 20th, 2009, 04:42 PM
if you live in the states, check out the history channel's 'world without people' sometime. it starts from the presumption of 'people suddenly vanish' and goes by week by week, then year by year, how the planet reclaims itself over time.

They go to one town in russia, not chernobyl exactly, but a town within just a few miles. initially, yes, all the animal life died. but it's reclaimed. animals now see it as a haven because humans wont' live there. trees are growing in the middle of the soccer fields and the only way you know that they are soccer fields is because the grandstands are standing.

animals move into human shelters and use them for shelter themselves. grass is reclaiming the streets, asphalt is turning back into gravel, trees and vines are tearing down structures.

and that's just in 20 years.

Nothing kills everything. tons of creatures survived the planet killer asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.

And i also remember a special i saw on the titanic, and the victims that are buried in new foundland i believe. in the past almost 200 years, the caskets have rotted away and the bones are lying in mud...and they're so damaged that, when they tried to exhume one of hte unknowns to run thier dna, parts of it were already gone, consumed by the earth.

I think that the almost perfect skeletons in the sand on the beach are just a fiction stretch and a story telling device.

the only way you get bodies and bones well preserved is if they're cold and dry or hot and dry (ice mummies or dessicated mummies) the only wet skeletons/corpses they've ever found have been bog bodies, and those are preserved because the excessive amounts of tanin in the bog basically 'tan' the bodies to a leathery consistency

and, like others have mentioned, the jacks and the rubber ball existing for 2000 years? the wood of the guitar?

not that long

BobBot
January 20th, 2009, 07:43 PM
and, like others have mentioned, the jacks and the rubber ball existing for 2000 years? the wood of the guitar?

not that long
The TV show you quote doesn't sound like it was based on a nuclear holocaust. Radiation sterilizes - I'm a medical physicist, radiation meeting living tissue is what I know!

As for the rubber ball - I don't remember it bouncing, are you totally sure it was made of rubber as we know it today?

The bones - sterilisation from radiation slows decay. That's why we use radiation to preserve foods and to sterilise stuff. And what temperature were they at? For all we know the BSG crew are visiting at the height of an unusually warm summer. Bones can decay quickly, but it depends on a lot of environmental factors. Acidity, temperature, creatures, humidity, movement, chemical composition, bacteria, animals. We saw the bones weren't in mud, so your non-irradiated bone example is not relevant. (Also, the Titanic - 200 years ago? Seriously?)

The writers wanted to get on with the story rather than bore us with the details of how bones could survive that length of time. It's plausible that they could survive, the buildings are plausible - that's all we need to know. If you want to be pernickity, the FTL drives are not plausible. Totally impossible and unrealistic, but a necessary story device.

GateGipsy
January 20th, 2009, 10:09 PM
The titanic sank in 1912, so that's not even 100 years. In fact (it must be because I saw it on CSI :)) bones could be soup in just a few years, it depends on the conditions. Hence why we get bones from the Egyptians that were just buried in the sand (not mummified) thousands of years later, and why the peat bogs in England and Ireland are still spitting out almost entirely preserved bodies (hair and skin) a few thousand years later.

Mongoletsi
January 21st, 2009, 03:21 AM
The TV show you quote doesn't sound like it was based on a nuclear holocaust. Radiation sterilizes - I'm a medical physicist, radiation meeting living tissue is what I know!

I'll accept whatever you say on the subject then :)

Skydiver
January 21st, 2009, 04:54 AM
ok, so the titanic was 1912, which i knew, the 200 was a brain fart.

and the show was simply based on 'bang, everyone's gone', no cause, no reason, just all humans gone.

I don't buy that it was 2000 years. not gonna beat the topic to death, but i don't buy it.

time will tell if the show ever confirms/denies the topic :)

Mongoletsi
January 21st, 2009, 06:36 AM
I don't buy that it was 2000 years. not gonna beat the topic to death, but i don't buy it.

time will tell if the show ever confirms/denies the topic :)

Well everybody is entitled to their opinion sir!

Personally, and from what I remember about ionizing radiation, it's very feasible indeed that a massive global nuclear event would leave a world in this state. As you saw, grass (the hardiest, most wide-spread form of life on Earth) and a few basic flowers* were evident. This would suggest life wasn't entirely destroyed; a few pockets of "simple" life (grasses and whatnot) survived. Grass would definitely spread on the wind.

I'm not sure of the effect of irradiated water on grasses is in the longterm though. Presumably the reproductive system of grass isn't as affected as that of more complex organisms.

The fact of the matter is that if *everything* has been sterilised, then there's literally nothing to rot, and nothing to assist the rotting. So bones, rubber balls, old strands of hair. All totally feasible. Even now we find well-reserved remains, far older than 2,000 years. Preserved due to lack of oxygen, thus slowing down the decay.

A massive (global) nuclear event would simply burn off pretty much all the oxygen in the atmosphere (I believe). No oxygen = no life.

Again, the fact only grass and a few flowering plants are evident, does actually suggest the passage of at least 2,000 years.

* Flowers can pollinate via the wind, but insects or birds are a massive help. Was it a thistle of some sort which Roslin picked up?

VSS
January 21st, 2009, 07:55 AM
The TV show you quote doesn't sound like it was based on a nuclear holocaust. Radiation sterilizes - I'm a medical physicist, radiation meeting living tissue is what I know!

As for the rubber ball - I don't remember it bouncing, are you totally sure it was made of rubber as we know it today?

The bones - sterilisation from radiation slows decay. That's why we use radiation to preserve foods and to sterilise stuff. And what temperature were they at? For all we know the BSG crew are visiting at the height of an unusually warm summer. Bones can decay quickly, but it depends on a lot of environmental factors. Acidity, temperature, creatures, humidity, movement, chemical composition, bacteria, animals. We saw the bones weren't in mud, so your non-irradiated bone example is not relevant. (Also, the Titanic - 200 years ago? Seriously?)

The writers wanted to get on with the story rather than bore us with the details of how bones could survive that length of time. It's plausible that they could survive, the buildings are plausible - that's all we need to know. If you want to be pernickity, the FTL drives are not plausible. Totally impossible and unrealistic, but a necessary story device.

Then as a medical physicist you know that the radiation it takes to kill a human being is much less than what it takes to kill off simpler organisms such as plants and especially bacteria. People are easy to kill. That's why you have a job.;)

And the greatest biomass on earth is actually bacteria- in the soil. Where it's shielded from radiation- and this blast didn't even kill off all the plants on the surface. There are literally bacteria everywhere one can imagine- even in the most inhospitable of places like the hot springs in Yellowstone, the marine vents in the deep sea trenches and maybe even on Mars (personally I don't think so, but... some scientists do). Earth would have to be a blackened shell of a planet not to have bacteria. All we can do is knock them down temporarily but they'd spring right back, mutate, and fill every available niche.

And really, putting bones by a seashore- or any buildings- they'd be gone even faster. The physical action of the waves, the presence of bacteria in wet areas- nothing lasts 2000 years on a seashore even if it were sterile, which it isn't.

Although I do think there was a nuclear holocaust on the BSG of earth 2000 years ago- Nuclear decay rates are the most reliable indicator of age and that's what Baltar was measuring.

BSG just got their science wrong in a major way, a way that was big enough to distract me from the story they were trying to tell, and I find that irritating. So I'd rather believe that there was a more recent battle than think they don't have any science advisors. FTL drives bother physicists, frakked up biology bothers me.;)

BobBot
January 21st, 2009, 01:22 PM
Then as a medical physicist you know that the radiation it takes to kill a human being is much less than what it takes to kill off simpler organisms such as plants and especially bacteria. People are easy to kill. That's why you have a job.;)

And the greatest biomass on earth is actually bacteria- in the soil. Where it's shielded from radiation- and this blast didn't even kill off all the plants on the surface.

I should point out that medical physicists involved in radiation use it to save life and diagnose (and treat) pathology. Irradiating a population does kill a certain percentage, and it's up to doctors/dentists etc to decide if someone should be irradiated.

The soil wouldn't necessarily be an effective near-surface shield from radiation though, as the gamma rays in the initial blast would penetrate into the soil (many factors are involved in how the depth/dose curve would appear). More importantly though is the fallout. That is, any radioactive material that is not consumed in the nuclear blast is scattered over a wide are. This falls to the ground (for example, in rain) and is incorporated into soil, rivers etc. How much radiation is scattered this way depends on the type, efficiency and the elemental isotopes (and their mass) of the bombs.

Again, we don't know the conditions the bones were exposed to, but it is reasonable to assume that they were kept cold, possibly even frozen. This is because nuclear holocaust could have triggered a mini ice age as the dust from explosions blocks out the sun and increases planetary albedo. And the cast are all seen wearing jackets.;)

Matt G
January 21st, 2009, 03:16 PM
1. The moment when everyone was waiting for Roslin to say something. Ouch!

2. I did actually laugh when Dee shot herself, it just didn't register that she's commited suicide.

3. Everyone's fracked in the head here.

4. Best guess says the original Kara travelled back in time 2000 years and that her appearance somehow changed history, making her a thirteenth Cylon. Fact is, we've never had a clue what sort of time period BSG is set in Earthwise.

5. Ellen if the the final Cylon.

OK, theory at this point. At some point in our future, humanity gets caught up in a massive war. Five humans were able to avoid the fate of the rest of humanity and were able to ressurect themselves into artificial bodies.

They're not the final Five, they're the first Five!

That's all I can come up with at the moment.

Skydiver
January 21st, 2009, 06:19 PM
what if....when she fell into that planet starbuck went back in time and her appearance is what triggered the war?

Jeffala
January 21st, 2009, 06:56 PM
what if....when she fell into that planet starbuck went back in time and her appearance is what triggered the war?

I wonder if her beacon would still transmit after that long of a time.


(It's possible, I guess. The beacon that carried the disease that killed the Cylons was still transmitting after at least "a couple hundred years" and as many as 3,000+ years.)

ToasterOnFire
January 21st, 2009, 07:02 PM
I could have sworn someone involved in BSG said that the show would not use many of the elements so typical in SF - no aliens, no time travel, no AUs.

I may be thinking of EJO's comment (joke?) that he would leave the show if they ever started doing the above, but I thought a PTB also confirmed that.

rarocks24
January 22nd, 2009, 08:03 AM
I could have sworn someone involved in BSG said that the show would not use many of the elements so typical in SF - no aliens, no time travel, no AUs.

I may be thinking of EJO's comment (joke?) that he would leave the show if they ever started doing the above, but I thought a PTB also confirmed that.

Doesn't matter. The show was ending. They could do whatever.

Wayston
January 22nd, 2009, 08:19 AM
the bones weren't necessarily on the surface for 2000 years, they could have dug them up and then you see them exposed in the scene...

Skydiver
January 22nd, 2009, 11:06 AM
i remember that they were buried, but even buried, bones decay, just slower than they do when exposed to wind and rain

Jeffala
January 22nd, 2009, 11:12 AM
I guess the easiest way to explain this away is to say that human-form Cylons don't decay at the same rate as regular humans.

ha'tak_
January 22nd, 2009, 11:16 AM
I must say I did not like the episode