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    Super-Hive's strength

    ok, so its powered by a ZPM and that boosts the power of the ship, but isn't it a little over the top that the first wave of fire from this thing takes Atlantis's shields down to 70%? its the bloody city of the Ancients, and a single ZPM gave it days(IIRC) worth of defense against a fleet of Hives and Cruisers.

    to another point, I noticed the Daedalus was not playing so smart with the hive after it got into range(sat there, making itself a nice target)

    had the Daedalus moved around a bit like the Oddy vs the Ori Battlecruisers(which i personally call Origin class) would it not have faired much much better? perhaps not winning the fight, but seriously...

    all this aside, it was needed for time and plot to work out.

    #2
    Well, you have to keep in mind that the hive is actually alive to an extent, so it grows phsysically stronger with the ZPM. It still doesn't give it shield technology, but it sure as hell wil power up its weapon capabilities.
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      #3
      Yeah and for it being so "Super-Hive" it was taken out to easy, just a few drones. I wanted to see a bunch of ships firing all they had into it.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Archaeis View Post
        Well, you have to keep in mind that the hive is actually alive to an extent, so it grows phsysically stronger with the ZPM. It still doesn't give it shield technology, but it sure as hell wil power up its weapon capabilities.
        ok, that i can accept as a little more...

        Originally posted by bentdog View Post
        Yeah and for it being so "Super-Hive" it was taken out to easy, just a few drones. I wanted to see a bunch of ships firing all they had into it.
        indeed...i knew that the Wraith would come in some way to Earth in the final ep, but i was hopping for some sort of major battle with Earth's fleet, the Chair, Atlantis, and possibly some Milky Way allies(Jaffa, Tok'ra, Serrakins) helping out...

        always wanted to see Ha'taks fighting Hives/Cruisers.

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          #5
          Here is my explanation for why the hive was able to drain Atlantis' shields so quickly. We know that the wormhole drive is not a primary system (i.e. the shield, hyperdrive etc.) so the ZPMs were not directly interfaced with it. The Atlantis team would have had to manually reroute power to the wormhole drive. We also know that ZPMs have a limited output of power. The wormhole drive probably required all the power output of 2 ZPMs plus some of the power output of the third one. Therefore Atlantis had only the partial output of one ZPM to power the shield and other systems until the rest of the power was rerouted. The Super-hive did not have to deal with all three ZPMs, they only had to deal with the partial output of one. That is why the Super-hive did so well. Hope that helps.

          Dr. Daedalus
          God is the original transporter.

          Acts 8:39b-40a: The Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Phillip away and the official did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus (an old city in ancient Israel) and traveled about.

          He is also the author of love and justice:

          Spoiler:
          Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

          John 14:6: Jesus (Christ) answered: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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            #6
            What we don't know is how many ZPM's they had on the hive. It would dramitically increase its strength if there were 3 on board.
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            Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/brettsuddreth

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              #7
              Im pretty sure Todd only gave them one. And like someone said we used the wormhole drive it pretty much depleted all our ZPMs. Thats one of the main reasons it was abandoned.


              Also the Serrakins won't be helping anyone. The Ori destroyed them

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                #8
                Todd hinted that the hive had more than one ZPM, and this is supported by the fact that it made it to Earth weeks before anyone had expected, even when they were taking a ZPM into account.
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                  #9
                  The hive has 1 ZPM. Nowhere in the episode does anyone ever suggest anything else. Everytime they talk about the zpm as it relates to the hive it's always "the" or "a" zpm never multiples. I don't know how this idea even got started. Todd had multiple ZPMs, at least 3 and possibly more he didn't hand over, the hive however had one. There is nothing in the episode I remember even hinting at the idea that it had more. If you think there is I'd be perfectly willing to consider it but I don't remember anything at all about these "hints" people keep going on about, and I've watched this episode twice.

                  The wormhole drive did not drain/deplete the ZPMs. Even after the battle when they crashland Sheppard says to Ronon that "the city's pretty banged up and even with the ZPMs they're not going anywhere".

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                    #10
                    so a few shots from a hive powered by 1 ZPM brought down to 70% a cityship's shield powered by 3 ZPMs ?
                    if so /!\error/!\ something doesn't add up. I smell yet another goof (but heck at this point, what's one more -)

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by SoulRe@ver View Post
                      so a few shots from a hive powered by 1 ZPM brought down to 70% a cityship's shield powered by 3 ZPMs ?
                      if so /!\error/!\ something doesn't add up. I smell yet another goof (but heck at this point, what's one more -)
                      It adds up fine if you're willing to grant that ancient shield designs really don't like being hit with Wraith weapons fire.

                      I posted a more detailed explanation about what I figure is happening in that other superhive thread in the science and tech forum recently. Basically we've known for a while that the Wraith weapons cause a lot more damage to shields via *technobabble* than their actual energy content would seem to make possible. Given that, and given that all the other hives attirbutes were boosted, it stands to reason that whatever shield disrupting effect they normally use was probably boosted to.

                      Either, or in addition to that, Wraith tech is actually better than ancient tech in terms of how it uses power available to it. Basically they can get more out of 1 ZPM than the ancients can get out of 3 because their tech uses the power more efficiently, likely becauses it's used to having to squeeze the absolute most out of normally low end power sources. It's not something I really have that hard of a time believing either, since apparently their ships were still competitive with ancient ones even with their normal power sources back in the war, and even in cases when ancient ships had ZPMs like the tria and the group of ships that were harvested to make the cloning machine. Then you can contrast things like hives taking off from the surface of a planet (using their normal reactors) and the city doing it (requires 3 ZPMs) and a picture starts to form about just how power hungry/inefficient the city actually is with the power it gets. The liftoff thing for one is a direct example of the Wraith lifting something bigger and heavier with their normal power generators than the ancients can manage with 3 ZPMs on the city. So if you take that efficiency and then give the Wraith an equivalent, or near equivalent power source, rather than the vastly inferior one they're used to having to work with, their tech actually surpasses the performance of similar powered ancient tech. In this case for example it would mean that even having 3 times as much raw power available still wasn't enough for the city to overcome the efficiency advantage the Wraith tech had.

                      I know it's hard for some people to believe that the Wraith tech would be superior to ancient in some respects but personally I always found it harder to believe that even 10,000 years after defeating them it wouldn't be.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ouroboros View Post
                        It adds up fine if you're willing to grant that ancient shield designs really don't like being hit with Wraith weapons fire.

                        I posted a more detailed explanation about what I figure is happening in that other superhive thread in the science and tech forum recently. Basically we've known for a while that the Wraith weapons cause a lot more damage to shields via *technobabble* than their actual energy content would seem to make possible. Given that, and given that all the other hives attirbutes were boosted, it stands to reason that whatever shield disrupting effect they normally use was probably boosted to.

                        Either, or in addition to that, Wraith tech is actually better than ancient tech in terms of how it uses power available to it. Basically they can get more out of 1 ZPM than the ancients can get out of 3 because their tech uses the power more efficiently, likely becauses it's used to having to squeeze the absolute most out of normally low end power sources. It's not something I really have that hard of a time believing either, since apparently their ships were still competitive with ancient ones even with their normal power sources back in the war, and even in cases when ancient ships had ZPMs like the tria and the group of ships that were harvested to make the cloning machine. Then you can contrast things like hives taking off from the surface of a planet (using their normal reactors) and the city doing it (requires 3 ZPMs) and a picture starts to form about just how power hungry/inefficient the city actually is with the power it gets. The liftoff thing for one is a direct example of the Wraith lifting something bigger and heavier with their normal power generators than the ancients can manage with 3 ZPMs on the city. So if you take that efficiency and then give the Wraith an equivalent, or near equivalent power source, rather than the vastly inferior one they're used to having to work with, their tech actually surpasses the performance of similar powered ancient tech. In this case for example it would mean that even having 3 times as much raw power available still wasn't enough for the city to overcome the efficiency advantage the Wraith tech had.

                        I know it's hard for some people to believe that the Wraith tech would be superior to ancient in some respects but personally I always found it harder to believe that even 10,000 years after defeating them it wouldn't be.
                        still doesnt add up when the same cityshield with only one zpm could withstand sustained fire from a fleet of regular hives for days. this would imply an enormous difference in power production capabilities between wraith & ancients (as evidenced by the comparison between regular hive & zpm-boosted hive) and I mean many many orders of magnitude. more like comparing present day humans and...neandertals
                        now if as you say wraith military tech is superior to ancient tech to such an extent that wraith weaponry would fare so well against ancient defenses with triple the power, then wouldn't you expect the wraith to have come up with a means of power generation that measures up to all this uber-tech in other words at the very least comparable to ancient power generation ?? if not this is like imagining a modern day nuclear submarine powered by a hamster. lol. serious lack of consistency here (like I said though, we get used to it)

                        btw wraith hives ain't all that competitive with ancient ones considering how an ancient ship even with older design shields (orange) could easily 1) hold up against a hive (and even hold quite some time with its shields down ! compare this with the 304 where only 2 hits to the hull caused enough damage to threaten the crew), and 2) tear that hive to pieces in a matter of seconds with its drones......

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by SoulRe@ver View Post
                          still doesnt add up when the same cityshield with only one zpm could withstand sustained fire from a fleet of regular hives for days. ......
                          SoulRe@ver,

                          You have raised a very valid point. However, as I said in my previous post Atlantis (at the time of the battle with the Super-Hive) was only powered by the partial output of one ZPM not all three. It would have been easier if the writers had included a line explaining this, but EatG was a rushed episode and they just did not have enough time. I hope this helps.

                          Dr. Daedalus
                          God is the original transporter.

                          Acts 8:39b-40a: The Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Phillip away and the official did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Philip, however, appeared at Azotus (an old city in ancient Israel) and traveled about.

                          He is also the author of love and justice:

                          Spoiler:
                          Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

                          John 14:6: Jesus (Christ) answered: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dr. Daedalus View Post
                            SoulRe@ver,

                            You have raised a very valid point. However, as I said in my previous post Atlantis (at the time of the battle with the Super-Hive) was only powered by the partial output of one ZPM not all three. It would have been easier if the writers had included a line explaining this, but EatG was a rushed episode and they just did not have enough time. I hope this helps.

                            Dr. Daedalus
                            unfortunately like you said this was never explicitly stated in the ep - but it sure would explain a lot of things (and spare what little consistency is left -)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by SoulRe@ver View Post
                              still doesnt add up when the same cityshield with only one zpm could withstand sustained fire from a fleet of regular hives for days. this would imply an enormous difference in power production capabilities between wraith & ancients (as evidenced by the comparison between regular hive & zpm-boosted hive) and I mean many many orders of magnitude. more like comparing present day humans and...neandertals
                              now if as you say wraith military tech is superior to ancient tech to such an extent that wraith weaponry would fare so well against ancient defenses with triple the power, then wouldn't you expect the wraith to have come up with a means of power generation that measures up to all this uber-tech in other words at the very least comparable to ancient power generation ?? if not this is like imagining a modern day nuclear submarine powered by a hamster. lol. serious lack of consistency here (like I said though, we get used to it)
                              Oh I'm not going to pretend it's the most elegant solution by any means but it's preferable to just deciding to pretend that the hive actually has multiple ZPMs when the episode makes it very clear that this isn't the case.

                              This really should have been the status quo for the Wraith from day one anyway. Them being militarily (but not scientifically/esoterically) superior to the ancients that is. Human/Asgard etc tech or 10,000 years outdated ancient tech never should have granted the sort of overwhelming advantages as it was depicted to vs their modern tech. If it did there should have been an actual in show explanation to explain something like how 10,000 years of uncontested dominion has caused them to seriously scale back on the nastiness of their ships in order to accomodate other features like hibernation pods, humans torage, and larger dart hangers.

                              As usual though it's left to the fans to explain all these types of inconsistancies away. At least this episode introduces a sort of hidden potential in Wraith tech that shows that it actually does have the capacity to be extremely potent, but with the achilies heal that the Wraith, especially the modern Wraith, don't have the supporting power generation tech on most ships to really extract the most out of their weapon and regenerative armour designs.

                              That then opens up an easy road to explaining how they actually managed to not all get murdered in 2 days by the ancient military 10,000 years ago. Ships back then placed more emphasis on warfare/power generation and less on harvesting, hibernation and long term human storage. Now the only stupidity that remains is why every queen with half a brain hasn't refitted some of her ships into warships again, unless you assume that the majority of them no longer remember how, which is possible given that dialog about the role of Wraith keepers in Allies.

                              You could even write a pretty compelling story of intrigue around the whole idea this way. Maybe the Keepers are intentionally letting the other non Keeper controlled Wraith ships deteriorate as time passes...

                              btw wraith hives ain't all that competitive with ancient ones considering how an ancient ship even with older design shields (orange) could easily 1) hold up against a hive (and even hold quite some time with its shields down ! compare this with the 304 where only 2 hits to the hull caused enough damage to threaten the crew), and 2) tear that hive to pieces in a matter of seconds with its drones......
                              By competitive I mean that they're capable enough to be a threat, as is of course obvious. Ancient ships clearly have more bells and whistles and better tech on average. A hive is basically just a flying slab of armour with a bunch of guns built into it. Not a lot of finesse and not as good 1 on 1 as an ancient equivalent but good enough that them being more numerous than ancient equivalents equates to an eventually war losing problem as oppossed to an amusing shooting gallery.

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