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Lythisrose
January 6th, 2009, 12:13 PM
So would I!

melfan
January 6th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Same for me!

Mongoletsi
January 6th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Only in my misguided youth. Now I listen to - ya know - Korn and stuff. Can't get away from pop metal, I guess. :P

das

"Youth"? Well I suppose you're around my age then! Heh seriously read Slash's autobiog (entitled "Slash", duh). It's really, really good. Well written and some frankly amazing stories. Most of them would be mod-snipped as there's minors present here. Off topic, soz!

Automission
January 6th, 2009, 12:15 PM
Another thing I thought of. Didn't Wraith telepathy only work among wraith? This felt like the first time it was suggested Wraith can read the minds of an everyday human.

Fenrir Foxz
January 6th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Only in my misguided youth. Now I listen to - ya know - Korn and stuff. Can't get away from pop metal, I guess. :P

das

Yeah Korn is cool. I thought Marilyn Manson: 'The Beautiful People' playing while the wraith was applying his makeup was amusing. :p

Naonak
January 6th, 2009, 12:21 PM
Can some people clear a few things up. The Mckay said he was from an alternate reality. So if that's correct, why did an alternate reality team from SGA come to that one? Or have I missed the point there?
He said he'd been to another reality, not that he was from one.


Also, if the wraith didn't know of earth's location, how could that wraith have survived a drone attack over earth, then crash landed there?
The Wraith aren't united - his Hive somehow found out and got here, but hadn't told any others. More food for them. ;)
But if his Hive's been wiped out, he may as well let the rest know.


Todd however veered a little to close to BSG Hybrid territory.
Because the Hybrids are the first people to ramble insanely? Come on.


Still similarly to ENTs: In A Mirror Darkly; I can't help but feel that having an episode set entirely in a different reality is a bit of a cheat. THe team visit AUs or them visiting the main timeline; that's fine but not this. Might as well say every episode is in its own reality at that rate. It wold avoid all questions about continuity at least.
The Wraith signal did get sent to other realities... Like, maybe, this one? ;)


I did like the line: "our universe is the only one that I care about", hasn;t someone from our universe said that or something similar at one time or another? Looks like that's going to come back and bite us in the ass. Metaphorically at least.
Indeed, Teal'c - "Ours is the only reality of consequence." (IIRC)

dasNdanger
January 6th, 2009, 12:23 PM
"Youth"? Well I suppose you're around my age then! Heh seriously read Slash's autobiog (entitled "Slash", duh). It's really, really good. Well written and some frankly amazing stories. Most of them would be mod-snipped as there's minors present here. Off topic, soz!

I actually might be older. I tend to like music that is not age-appropriate...lol.


Another thing I thought of. Didn't Wraith telepathy only work among wraith? This felt like the first time it was suggested Wraith can read the minds of an everyday human.

Well, it seems that way, but they have changed it. We know that Michael telepathically got into Beckett's head, and that was back at the beginning of S3, right? Can't count Teyla because she has Wraith DNA, but I'm thinking that - perhaps - Wraith can get into a person's head somewhat. It might depend on the Wraith, and the mental strength of the person. It also may not be that they can totally read minds, but that they can sense emotions, such as the excitement someone feels over a good poker hand, or the apprehension over a bad one.

But Todd knowing Sheppard's name is interesting. It makes me wonder if his mental abilities are stronger than 'our' Todd, or if he had - perhaps - been from an AU himself. What worries me is that...oops. Next week's ep. I'll leave it for that discussion...


das

Linda06
January 6th, 2009, 12:23 PM
Welcome to the gutter,
It gets worse here everyday.
Ya learn ta live like an animal,
In the gutter where we play.
If you got a hunger for what you see,
You'll take it eventually.
You can have anything you want,
But you better not take it from me...

;)


das

hehe...wicked :D


I reckon those who didn't like Vegas are backers of the Save SGA campaign. I don't mean this offensively, just my undergrad psyche module kicking in here!

Well I don't like Vegas and i'm not part of the save SGA campaign!


Another thing I thought of. Didn't Wraith telepathy only work among wraith? This felt like the first time it was suggested Wraith can read the minds of an everyday human.

Oh good catch.....Yeah wraith can get into your mind and make you see things that aren't really there....Since when can they read your mind :confused:

Pandora's_Box
January 6th, 2009, 12:27 PM
I reckon those who didn't like Vegas are backers of the Save SGA campaign. I don't mean this offensively, just my undergrad psyche module kicking in here!

Didn't like it and I'm not.

jannagalaxy
January 6th, 2009, 12:29 PM
I liked parts of this episode and I hated parts of this episode.

I LIKED the star trek joke. Had me giggling.
I Liked Radek in a suit (goes into a girly dream) and Rodney looked so sharp in his suit.
I LOVED THE ENDING!!! It has been a while since a SGA episode had me in tears.
I like the "Fork in the road" thought. You know one dission can make or brake you and bad luck for AU-John it broke him. I love that :)

But...I hated the rock music (although I liked "Solitary Man" that was fitting)
I'm not into CSI and that sort of show, I know some are but it's not my cup of tea and is the reason why it took for Rodney to arrive on the scene for me to start to take attention.

The part where the wraith was putting on the make up for some reason reminded me of "Silence of the Lambs"

Glad to see Walter :)

I'm just glad that it was just building up to our "team".

Anyone notice that Rodney was wearing a wedding ring?

Also what was the pendant on John's chain? I couldn't see it clearly.

Automission
January 6th, 2009, 12:30 PM
Well, it seems that way, but they have changed it. We know that Michael telepathically got into Beckett's head, and that was back at the beginning of S3, right? Can't count Teyla because she has Wraith DNA, but I'm thinking that - perhaps - Wraith can get into a person's head somewhat. It might depend on the Wraith, and the mental strength of the person. It also may not be that they can totally read minds, but that they can sense emotions, such as the excitement someone feels over a good poker hand, or the apprehension over a bad one.

But Todd knowing Sheppard's name is interesting. It makes me wonder if his mental abilities are stronger than 'our' Todd, or if he had - perhaps - been from an AU himself. What worries me is that...oops. Next week's ep. I'll leave it for that discussion...


das
The Michael thing, I'd chalk it down to the fact he was turned into a human via the retro virus. So he can get into human and wraith minds, like Teyla can get into wraith minds as she's half human.
As for Todd knowing Sheppards name, it seemed odd. Almost as if that realities SGA team went to a different reality just to grab Todd as an example. :p



Anyone notice that Rodney was wearing a wedding ring?
Good catch! Did anyone look to see if Alt Keller was wearing a ring? Their meeting in the hall seemed to imply that. Unless that Reality Rodney is having an affair.. ;)

dasNdanger
January 6th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Yeah Korn is cool. I thought Marilyn Manson: 'The Beautiful People' playing while the wraith was applying his makeup was amusing. :p

I thought it quite appropriate! :D

Both in that the Wraith is beautiful as himself, but more specifically, that he was putting on the costume of 'the beautiful people' he was impersonating. I'm sure he had to mentally gear himself up for such an experience...to be able to walk amongst his herd, hungering for them all, and yet fighting the urge to thrust his hand against the first tasty morsel he sees. Imagine the amount of self-control he had to have - to seem 'cool' about it all, while...inside...fighting his natural instincts to feast upon this great banquet spread before him.

I give him a lot of credit. Heck...I can't even pass up a free lollypop at the bank!


das

LizzieAnne
January 6th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Just finished watching and I loved it.

It's a pity the writers weren't a bit more adventurous with more of the other episodes. Poker playing Wraith...now that is great... made me laugh. Did Sheppard have a full house by the way...should have concentrated bit more :)
When the Wraith hurled himself off the building and smacked onto the pavement .ouch..with Sheppard watching... the look on his face..

I can understand how some would think it's an odd kind of an episode to have when there's only one more to come :( but it's better than some kind of weak filler that get thrown in sometimes.


Oh... and I hate to spoil someone's psyche evaluation but ..I also want to save Atlantis! :)

ori soldier
January 6th, 2009, 02:08 PM
i'm comparing vegas to the desert scene with jonny deep in POTC 3 which put his character into a new perspective and helped revive a character that had become a bit tiresome and contrived.

Vegas did the exact same for sheppard putting him in this completly tragic situation and reminded me of how much i love sheppard and what a great actor joe is. This is what was lost of his character recently, the tragedy.

I dont feel this episode was a waste of time it had some great acting turns and put a new spin on all the characters, and a deliciously evil wraith, my only problem is that with BS as well thats two earth episodes in four eps, so great ep... if only they hadnt made BS.

Hermiiod
January 6th, 2009, 03:01 PM
ditto

loganmatrix08
January 6th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Hey everyone

First of all , i loved this episode.
Second, I wouldn't have been surprised if they had swapped out the normal SGA intro with a CSI style intro featuring each of the characters as their alternate selves, just to match the episode.

(stares at Mac) in fact i think i'll get on making one of those right now...

Later

nx01a
January 6th, 2009, 03:23 PM
Anyone notice that Rodney was wearing a wedding ring?Was Radek? :mckay::zelenka::D

Automission
January 6th, 2009, 03:34 PM
Was Radek? :mckay::zelenka::D

He was actually! Just sped to the scene on my sky box, he has a gold ring on his ring finger, left hand. ^_^ Radek/Rodney Ship!

prion
January 6th, 2009, 04:20 PM
He was actually! Just sped to the scene on my sky box, he has a gold ring on his ring finger, left hand. ^_^ Radek/Rodney Ship!

Well, they ARE in Vegas... what happens there, stays there, or whatever ;)

Espeon1962
January 6th, 2009, 05:28 PM
After lurking for literally years, I decided to register and start posting, hell there is still the final ep of SGA, future movies for it and SG1, plus the last 10 eps of BSG, its future movies, Caprica, and Stargate Universe, so I am definitely not to late!

At about the 20 minute mark in Vegas, I was starting to feel a little restless, but then I felt the episode really picked up steam, and by the end I felt this was a very fine episode. The tie into the series finale at the end was good, but the ending in respect of the John Sheppard character in this reality was exceptional. The music score was superb. This will be a love or hate episode, but as I personally give it a big thumbs up, and thank the writers for penning it. There were also a lot of memorable lines delivered, and the whole poker scene and subsequent chase scene reminded me most of scenes in The Crow (which also had similar style music in many of its action scenes).

As an aside - I want to start a forum for Space Above and Beyond, one of my all time favs, anybody else interested?

ewnif
January 6th, 2009, 11:25 PM
First I would watch it (as long as it had new producers and writers from the current SGA) .
Second did anyone catch last season of the Womens Murder Club on NBC Flanigan played an FBI agent.

ewnif
January 6th, 2009, 11:27 PM
First I would watch it (as long as it had new producers and writers from the current SGA) .
Second did anyone catch last season of the Womens Murder Club on NBC Flanigan played an FBI agent.

StarOcean
January 7th, 2009, 12:47 AM
I think adding Ronan and Teyla would have stretched the story thin and their inclusion would have been gratuitous with little meaning.

How would adding Ronon and Teyla stretched the story thin and be gratuitous? They are part of the show. The whole point of the episode was to show a different universe and our characters, and to provide one itty bitty detail about the signal broadcasting to other universes, which obviously is going to be used to launch the series finale. This episode is a filler, with one little tie-in. You take that detail away and it doesn't change the quality of this episode.

Saying that they would have never met the Earthers, or died somewhere along the way, because Sheppard was never there is a cop-out reason to not include them. Because this is an AU and a clean slate, the writers could have given them something to do in the episode and the viewers can figure it out themselves if they don't want to figure out the reasons. (Which they did for the Wraith and Todd.) That there's no Teyla and Ronon, yet there is Todd, tells me that they just didn't want to do it. We know very little about this universe and its situation. The episode didn't even tell us about Pegasus. There's no good reason for not including those two. That they don't tell us about Ronon, Teyla, or the Pegasus galaxy, adds a sense of disbelief as to why the Wraith were at Earth.

Teyla and Ronon are part of the main cast, we're going to wonder about them in this universe. This is an AU. Just include them. Like I posted here. (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=9512236#post9512236)

Also, we didn't get OUR characters. This episode doesn't affect our characters at all since they don't know what happened. Part of what made The Last Man and Daedalus Variations good was that the information from the other universes got to our characters.

The writers could have included Teyla and Ronon. They chose not to, much like they have throughout this season. As this is the penultimate episode, they should have. That they were unwilling to change the script, if the timing of the decision came down is true and not a spin, speaks for itself. Though even on that point, it doesn't help them because Teyla and Ronon were sidelined throughout the season already and they didn't change THAT.

This could have been a great standalone episode. But the complete absence of Teyla and Ronon (not even a mention!), the lack of impact on our characters, no information about Pegasus (where our show takes place), makes this episode disappointing. That the series is ending is another knock against it.

And why was time wasted on those two mob-looking guys???

Linzi
January 7th, 2009, 01:23 AM
i'm comparing vegas to the desert scene with jonny deep in POTC 3 which put his character into a new perspective and helped revive a character that had become a bit tiresome and contrived.

Vegas did the exact same for sheppard putting him in this completly tragic situation and reminded me of how much i love sheppard and what a great actor joe is. This is what was lost of his character recently, the tragedy.

I dont feel this episode was a waste of time it had some great acting turns and put a new spin on all the characters, and a deliciously evil wraith, my only problem is that with BS as well thats two earth episodes in four eps, so great ep... if only they hadnt made BS.
To the part I've bolded... If only, if only..... ;)


Hey everyone

First of all , i loved this episode.
Second, I wouldn't have been surprised if they had swapped out the normal SGA intro with a CSI style intro featuring each of the characters as their alternate selves, just to match the episode.

(stares at Mac) in fact i think i'll get on making one of those right now...

Later
I'm glad they didn't swap out the normal intro. I do think that would have made the episode cheesy or a little like a parody.

Well, they ARE in Vegas... what happens there, stays there, or whatever ;)

:lol:

I read a post here recently, but can't find it now! :o A poster was saying something about Joe's injury being incorporated into the show? And I was really confused by that. If the poster was talking about the unexplained cut under Sheppard's eye, well, that was scripted but just not explained on screen. The reason I know this is because when some sides from Vegas were leaked online, the line where Sheppard's boss asks 'What the hell happened to your eye?' was in the leaked script, ergo it was scripted. Don't know if that what was being referred to? My take is that Shep had a run in with the guy he owed some money to, but we just didn't see it on screen because it was edited out of the script or episode. Just my thoughts. :)

Falcon 304
January 7th, 2009, 05:13 AM
Joe got some sort of injury (my guess is a face plant skateboarding), and they didn't want to ignore it, so they added the lines by Sheppard's boss and the nurse.

CassandraSGA
January 7th, 2009, 05:25 AM
My first thought as I watched the EPS was - well, this is why the show has been axed, but the final scenes put everything into perspective for me and set the scene for what promises to be a fantastic series finale. In retrospect, I think the eps, if taken as part 1 of a 2 part finale, was one of the best I've seen. JF acted superbly and the music was fab.
I loved the Johnny Cash poster.

I'm very glad they didn't trot out everyon efrom the the team. That would have been just too corny. I do wish tho, that Beckett had been the doctor and not Keller. I think she must have had a contract to guarantee her a certain amt of screen time or soemthing cos she's been in every EPS this season I swear.

But I'm profoundly grateful that Carter wasn't in it.

YutheGreat
January 7th, 2009, 06:22 AM
The Writers needed to explain how the WRaith would find earth in future SG movies so they explained that Wraith found it from alternate universe.

Hermiiod
January 7th, 2009, 06:35 AM
I'm very glad they didn't trot out everyon efrom the the team. That would have been just too corny. I do wish tho, that Beckett had been the doctor and not Keller. I think she must have had a contract to guarantee her a certain amt of screen time or soemthing cos she's been in every EPS this season I swear.

Except for "Prodigal". Strangely she was not there. Even though there was a scene with Ronan in a hospital bed at the end.

CazzBlade
January 7th, 2009, 06:42 AM
Keller also wasn't in DV, GitM, Whispers, Outsiders and Inquisition.

nx01a
January 7th, 2009, 06:46 AM
On the second watch, I noticed the unbelievably hot red-haired nurse in an unbelievably short skirt pushing a patient in a wheelchair right past Shep. I also noticed that Shep didn't notice. :P

Pandora's_Box
January 7th, 2009, 06:49 AM
This could have been a great standalone episode. But the complete absence of Teyla and Ronon (not even a mention!), the lack of impact on our characters, no information about Pegasus (where our show takes place), makes this episode disappointing. That the series is ending is another knock against it.


Just re-posting to emphasise the fact that I AGREE!!!


Keller also wasn't in DV, GitM, Whispers, Outsiders and Inquisition.

:: blinks ::

You're defending Keller?! :eek:

:: faints ::

CazzBlade
January 7th, 2009, 06:55 AM
:: blinks ::

You're defending Keller?! :eek:

:: faints ::

Hey, you can't argue with the facts :D

ori soldier
January 7th, 2009, 07:21 AM
Well, it seems that way, but they have changed it. We know that Michael telepathically got into Beckett's head, and that was back at the beginning of S3, right? Can't count Teyla because she has Wraith DNA, but I'm thinking that - perhaps - Wraith can get into a person's head somewhat. It might depend on the Wraith, and the mental strength of the person. It also may not be that they can totally read minds, but that they can sense emotions, such as the excitement someone feels over a good poker hand, or the apprehension over a bad one.

But Todd knowing Sheppard's name is interesting. It makes me wonder if his mental abilities are stronger than 'our' Todd, or if he had - perhaps - been from an AU himself. What worries me is that...oops. Next week's ep. I'll leave it for that discussion...


i think we are forgetting this is an AU the wraith could be purple, 8ft tall and eat mcains oven chips in an AU for all we know

Linzi
January 7th, 2009, 07:22 AM
Joe got some sort of injury (my guess is a face plant skateboarding), and they didn't want to ignore it, so they added the lines by Sheppard's boss and the nurse.
No, they didn't. The casting sides that were leaked online were done so weeks before Vegas was filmed and that line was in the sides. So I don't know where the idea came from that Sheppard's cut on his eye was an injury Joe had sustained... unless he sustained it just before shooting the episode when the script had already been written so he coincidentally had a facial injury under his eye where it was scripted for him to have one ;)

Matt G
January 7th, 2009, 07:54 AM
1. I definately see where das is coming from, had Solitary Man stuck in my head for ages - a feelgood ep this wasn't.

2. Did get the feeling of everyone seeming slightly different in this reality, Woolsey's "I only care about this reality", well it was expected.

3. Surprised the Wraith even worked out what money was.

4. Everyone was blatently from that reality, the main reality's Todd is safe and soiund.

I didn't like the idea when I first heard about it, but it actually turned out damn good. Just a pity that next week will be it!

Mike1989
January 7th, 2009, 08:21 AM
The episode was okay and I use that very loosely indeed. I think it was a waste of an episode, I suppose it might tie in with the finale episode in some way, but, I think it was a waste of an episode. There have been a few of those episodes so far this season. But hey, the finale next week should be good off the trailer I saw at the end of vegas. But it was okay, not amazing, just okay.

prion
January 7th, 2009, 08:33 AM
I read a post here recently, but can't find it now! :o A poster was saying something about Joe's injury being incorporated into the show? And I was really confused by that. If the poster was talking about the unexplained cut under Sheppard's eye, well, that was scripted but just not explained on screen. The reason I know this is because when some sides from Vegas were leaked online, the line where Sheppard's boss asks 'What the hell happened to your eye?' was in the leaked script, ergo it was scripted. Don't know if that what was being referred to? My take is that Shep had a run in with the guy he owed some money to, but we just didn't see it on screen because it was edited out of the script or episode. Just my thoughts. :)

I don't think it was a real injury. I think Shep ran into one of Mikey's goons. Remember his blackberry (or whatever) went off too when Woolsey was there, so I'm wondering if he was getting a reminder call to pay up, or else.

nx01a
January 7th, 2009, 08:46 AM
I think the text was from the woman at the hospital, the one he was with in the very next scene.

Briangate78
January 7th, 2009, 09:28 AM
This Clip basically ties Vegas with the finale. There really are no spoilers just stuff we already know from "Vegas"...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/51284/star...ate#s-p1-sr-i0

Hermiiod
January 7th, 2009, 09:31 AM
This Clip basically ties Vegas with the finale. There really are no spoilers just stuff we already know from "Vegas"...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/51284/star...ate#s-p1-sr-i0

Hmmm... that link didn't work for me. It took me to hulu but then said that the page no longer exists.

Briangate78
January 7th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Hmmm... that link didn't work for me. It took me to hulu but then said that the page no longer exists.

Try this...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/51284/stargate-atlantis-enemy-at-the-gate#s-p1-sr-i0

Corona
January 7th, 2009, 10:11 AM
I'm curious what parts you would have cut to put Teyla and Ronan in. How integral could they have been in the way this tale unwound? Even Radek and Woolsey had an important but rather token appearance.

This story just didn't lend itself to having everyone chasing an AU wraith. If you think different, tell us how you would have written it.

A cameo length appearance is just not worth it with a regular character(s). See how well that worked with RDA?

I will be watching Vegas and Enemy At The Gate back to back for continuity purposes and because I thought the lighting and sound were extraordinary and worth an encore. Plus there are details posted here I had missed the first time through. That's why I come here.

Sometimes one needs to just kick back and enjoy the ride because even the worst Sci Fi is better than most of the trash on the TV. Plan 9 From Outer Space or Wife Swap?

Briangate78
January 7th, 2009, 11:21 AM
I'm curious what parts you would have cut to put Teyla and Ronan in. How integral could they have been in the way this tale unwound? Even Radek and Woolsey had an important but rather token appearance.




It would have made the episode cheesy. It would of been forced and would of lost that excellent writing aspect to it. I am sure RCC will address this on Friday's Q&A on Joe M's blog.

It's like people want to see their favorite character in this episode because they like that character so much they don't care how it effects the story. Then when their character is forced into an episode they are upset that they are not being used to their full potential or they are just background, You cannot win with this fanbase. :S

If Weir was in this episode THAT would of been brilliant.

stargatelvr
January 7th, 2009, 12:54 PM
The Writers needed to explain how the WRaith would find earth in future SG movies so they explained that Wraith found it from alternate universe.

Couldn't there have been an easier way of doing it?

maxbo
January 7th, 2009, 12:56 PM
It's not about "cutting any parts out" it's about crafting a storyline that included Teyla and Ronon in the first place.

stargatelvr
January 7th, 2009, 12:58 PM
I'm just going to jump into the discussion here, I didn't care for this episode the first time through. It just..... isn't Stargate. If I wanted to watch CSI I would go and watch CSI. This was just..... I was extremely disappointed.

nx01a
January 7th, 2009, 12:58 PM
IIf Weir was in this episode THAT would of been brilliant.
Since things apart from Shep seem to have followed the same course in the AU as in 'our' reality, the AU Atlantis probably lost Weir and Beckett since we've got Woolsey and Keller.

Nath
January 7th, 2009, 01:35 PM
Nath, can you watch it again? Sometimes a second viewing will fill in the confusing parts.

I'm going to watch it again during lunch today. I want to catch some of the little moments that I missed the first time.


Thanks for the advice. You're right, a second viewing is always good.

About the episode, I still think it's not the best one I watched. Joe Flanigan is a good actor, for sure. I'm not questioning his talent. It's just... well I don't totally buy it, I mean the story. Still confused. LoL.

I liked all the Johnny Cash stuff. ;)

About Teyla and Ronon, I understand why they are not in this reality. When we think about it, it's John that invited them to join the expedition. And again, it's John that activated the necklace device that alerted the wraith. So maybe Teyla would have known them but her world would not have been attacked and she would have stayed with her people. And Ronon... who knows if he would have encountered them...

Still, I miss them. And it would have been nice to see them (another alternate story maybe) since only two episodes remain... until the end of the series... :sheppardanime32:

taygeta7
January 7th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Loved the difference, a complete alternate team the small differences and similarities were clever, the alternate Todd was brilliant, soundtrack great it suited the ep perfectly, boring? could have been feature length to fill in the gaps, if you dont really like SGA I can see you wouldnt like it , but then why watch it at all. I cant stomach CSI at all its tooo pretentious, so this cant have been that similar, maybe the Stargate producers are just that much better than CSI's at doing this style of production.

Hermiiod
January 7th, 2009, 02:32 PM
Try this...

http://www.hulu.com/watch/51284/stargate-atlantis-enemy-at-the-gate#s-p1-sr-i0
Yeah thanks for that. I can't wait to watch EATG now! (lol. what's new?)

bluealien
January 7th, 2009, 02:36 PM
It's not about "cutting any parts out" it's about crafting a storyline that included Teyla and Ronon in the first place.

Exactly... it's nonsense to say the writers couldn't fit in Ronon and Teyla.. of course they could if they had wanted to. I've seen several plausible scenarios by fans where Teyla and Ronon could have been in the episode.. but yet the writers couldn't come up with anything.. or maybe they just didnt want to..

Jill_Ion
January 7th, 2009, 03:22 PM
Well, some Wraith in our reality found out Earth's location, but we blew them up.

I don't see how coming up with a new way for Earth location info to get to the Wraith of our reality is a cop out. Could you please explain further?

Jill_Ion
January 7th, 2009, 03:26 PM
First I would watch it (as long as it had new producers and writers from the current SGA) .
Second did anyone catch last season of the Womens Murder Club on NBC Flanigan played an FBI agent.

Yeah, he was great!

StarOcean
January 7th, 2009, 03:45 PM
I'm curious what parts you would have cut to put Teyla and Ronan in. How integral could they have been in the way this tale unwound? Even Radek and Woolsey had an important but rather token appearance.

Did you click on the link that I included in my previous post? I did offer alternatives. Ones that added them to the scenes, consistent with the level of presence they have had through this season, and most of them didn't require any cuts. And no one was integral to the episode except Sheppard, McKay, and the Wraith. Radek, Woolsey, Keller, and even Todd did not need to be there.

Repost:

It really sucks that Ronon or Teyla weren't in the second to last episode of SGA and I'm disappointed that the writers didn't seem to even attempt to write them in.

While it makes sense that they might have not joined Atlantis because Sheppard wasn't there, that's only one possibility. There's too much missing information for this AU that it's more unbelievable, and reflects more about the writes than the story, that the episode didn't try to include them. That the writers decided on a story decision that keeps Teyla and Ronon absent, from a season in which their presence already feels lacking, makes me wonder why. It really feels like the writers didn't even try to give them screen time. That they just hit upon a reason why they wouldn't be there, shut down and stopped thinking any further.

They could have had Ronon, or him and Teyla, be Rodney's bodyguard(s). Rodney could have showed Sheppard the enormity of the situation by telling Sheppard that Ronon was the sole survivor of his planet, and Ronon can emote how much he hates the Wraith. Or show Teyla walking out of the room of Todd's cell, saying that she still couldn't get anything out of him. Or she could have taken the place of the soldier with the gun that was guarding Todd. Or she could have been Todd's interrogater and torturer. Or they could have a small scene where Rodney says that she can sense Wraith and that they've been using her but they haven't been able to find that Wraith. Or another scene where Teyla is on a viewscreen saying that no other hiveships have been tracked heading towards Earth.


This story just didn't lend itself to having everyone chasing an AU wraith. If you think different, tell us how you would have written it.

We did not see anyone chasing the Wraith except Sheppard. We're only told that SGC were trying to locate him without success. They could have included Teyla and Ronon without them joining Sheppard. In fact, Sheppard WASN'T going to go after the Wraith, he only changed his mind afterward while leaving Las Vegas.


A cameo length appearance is just not worth it with a regular character(s). See how well that worked with RDA?

But Teyla and Ronon are regular characters and shouldn't have cameo appearances. Especially throughout the whole season.

The sticking point is that the writers chose not to write for Teyla and Ronon at all in Vegas. Not even a mention. While, they were willing indulge themselves by including Keller passing McKay in the hallway, include Todd, and spending camera time on those two mob looking guys. That Teyla and Ronon's presence have been minimal throughout the season, and completely missing in an alternate universe, tells me that they don't want to write for them or creatively can't write for them. They would also prefer them gone. If there was to be a season 6, I suspect those two would be gone. Wouldn't be surprised if Todd became regular.

There's another reason why the absence of Teyla and Ronon is troubling. They're suppose to be integral to Sheppard so we should have seen the AU versions of them in Vegas. That they don't even seem to exist, tells me that the writers don't see it that way. The only person who matters is McKay. Part of the reason why the interaction between McKay and Sheppard is sad is because we're seeing two people who we know are close, but here they are strangers. And that takes off more Vegas's luster.


It would have made the episode cheesy. It would of been forced and would of lost that excellent writing aspect to it. I am sure RCC will address this on Friday's Q&A on Joe M's blog.

I wouldn't be surprise if that's the excuse they use. It's an AU and it's the penultimate episode. Why are the writers willing to work out answers for the absences of Teyla and Ronon, and NOT willing to create solutions for including them?


It's like people want to see their favorite character in this episode because they like that character so much they don't care how it effects the story.

Kinda like the writers with McKay and McKay-Keller?

And that's why the writers are suppose to write a story that INCLUDES them. Not just write for a character.

Also, I can say favoritism has nothing to do with my criticism. I criticize because I think the writers are really dropping the ball, or rather not even bother picking up this season.


Then when their character is forced into an episode they are upset that they are not being used to their full potential or they are just background, You cannot win with this fanbase. :S

What's this forcing thing? The only characters that are feeling shoehorned in are McKay and Keller.

Naonak
January 7th, 2009, 04:35 PM
But would a token appearance by Ronon and/or Teyla have really added anything to the story?

nx01a
January 7th, 2009, 04:40 PM
I agree with StarOcean. The story would have worked perfectly with only Rodney and Shep. Maybe Todd. :D
With half the command staff on Earth, Teyla and Ronon really should stay in Pegasus. We don't even know if they're members of the expedition in this reality. I really don't have a problem with them being absent here since it works just fine in-story.
You're right, Naonak. They really wouldn't have added much to the episode apart from Shep going, "You're not from Earth? You look human."

ToasterOnFire
January 7th, 2009, 05:45 PM
But would a token appearance by Ronon and/or Teyla have really added anything to the story?
One could argue that Walter didn't add anything to the story. Or Keller. Or Zelenka. Or Woolsey. Or the most likely spendy cameos by the Sopranos actors. And yet they were all included.

Heck, when you boil down the story all it required was Shep as the hero, the wraith as the villain, and McKay as the bridge between Shep's world and the hidden truth of the SGC and the PG. Everyone else was ultimately extraneous.

Cautious Explorer
January 7th, 2009, 06:06 PM
One could argue that Walter didn't add anything to the story. Or Keller. Or Zelenka. Or Woolsey. Or the most likely spendy cameos by the Sopranos actors. And yet they were all included.

Heck, when you boil down the story all it required was Shep as the hero, the wraith as the villain, and McKay as the bridge between Shep's world and the hidden truth of the SGC and the PG. Everyone else was ultimately extraneous.

Absolutely. Even McKay wasn't completely necessary. There needed to be a bridge between Sheppard and Pegasus, but there's no reason it had to be McKay.

If TPTB could find a reason to bring Todd into the episode, they could have found a way to include Ronon and Teyla if they really wanted to. Todd wouldn't have had any connection to Atlantis if it weren't for Sheppard. How is it any more difficult to explain how Teyla and Ronon might end up on Atlantis without Sheppard? Although, there wasn't a reason given for Todd's miraculous appearance, so I don't know why Ronon and Teyla would need one. I think it's sad that people are even talking about the need to find a way to fit in two main cast members. It shouldn't be difficult at all. It should be expected.

Dwparsnip
January 7th, 2009, 06:40 PM
The Writers needed to explain how the WRaith would find earth in future SG movies so they explained that Wraith found it from alternate universe.

Well, that's fine, but it doesn't really lay the groundwork for further Wraith incursions into Earth space does it? The theory is that the only reason the ZPM powered Hive picked up the signal was because of the ZPMs, so none of the other Wraith would have picked it up. And it doesn't seem likely that Todd's underling would have shared that info with other Wraith as he seemed to be intent on having the new feeding ground for himself.

nx01a
January 7th, 2009, 06:46 PM
I think Todd was there as foreshadowing for Enemy at the Gate, just like the subspace signal to other realities was a tie-in/foreshadowing.

Lythisrose
January 7th, 2009, 06:53 PM
Well, since Sheppard was a Detective, I think it was a
Cop-in... sorry. :o

Jill_Ion
January 7th, 2009, 07:36 PM
Mental green for "cop-in!" LOL!

Anubus
January 7th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Cannot believe some of the comments about this episode. I thought it was outstanding and excellent episode. Great acting, great location and a bit of the 'Stones music' included. Will admit the stones track was a bit of a steal from a movie but still excellent. The inclusion of Cash's music as well for a die hard fan like Sheppard was also well thought out. I loved the episode and I am sorry to see the show finish. SG1 and SGA for me will be the greatest television I have ever watched in my almost 52 years.

beire
January 8th, 2009, 12:24 AM
I loved the episode, i think it was more as an 'Unending' episode for me then an 200 episode. But i really like it.. For me it is probably one of the best this season. Also i don't care if it doesn't add much to the story arc, as long as it is a good ep :)

Beire

revo1059
January 8th, 2009, 05:02 AM
I think this was one of the best episodes of Atlantis I've seen! It seems that people either hated it or loved it. Here is how I saw it

1) Yep, it's not a normal Atlantis episode. It's not supposed to be. They had fun with a story. People have gotten so upset because it's not a true Atlantis episode. They tried some fun things for a one off episode and it came out great.

2) It's not a ripoff of CSI. I remember reading that they did that style as a salute to it.

3) They could not have chosen better music if they tried. It was nice to hear actual original songs and not a house band doing bad remakes. I almost fell over when Beautiful People came blaring out.

I wouldn't have wanted Atlantis to have this style for the series or even multiple episodes, but for a one off 'fun' episode......thumbs up! People get so bent out of shape because "it's not the way it's supposed to be" Relax people and enjoy it. I'm glad they had the nuts to try something different for an episode.

debbie418uk2
January 8th, 2009, 05:02 AM
I really hated this episode and found it tedious to the nth degree. It doesn't help that the main reason that I like Stargate is for the characters involved and they were completely different (and not better). I realize that the whole point of the episode was to set up the finale with the "OMG the wraith have found earth" scenario however I think that they could have managed that without the whole alternate reality bit. Shame really because the rest of the season has been good. debbie

Hermiiod
January 8th, 2009, 05:17 AM
I think this was one of the best episodes of Atlantis I've seen! It seems that people either hated it or loved it. Here is how I saw it

1) Yep, it's not a normal Atlantis episode. It's not supposed to be. They had fun with a story. People have gotten so upset because it's not a true Atlantis episode. They tried some fun things for a one off episode and it came out great.

2) It's not a ripoff of CSI. I remember reading that they did that style as a salute to it.

3) They could not have chosen better music if they tried. It was nice to hear actual original songs and not a house band doing bad remakes. I almost fell over when Beautiful People came blaring out.

I wouldn't have wanted Atlantis to have this style for the series or even multiple episodes, but for a one off 'fun' episode......thumbs up! People get so bent out of shape because "it's not the way it's supposed to be" Relax people and enjoy it. I'm glad they had the nuts to try something different for an episode.

Well said. I think for the majority of people who dislike it, dislike it because it was the second to last episode of Stargate Atlantis.

Naonak
January 8th, 2009, 06:04 AM
One could argue that Walter didn't add anything to the story. Or Keller. Or Zelenka. Or Woolsey. Or the most likely spendy cameos by the Sopranos actors. And yet they were all included.
Perhaps, but in the case of the established characters, it was somewhat necessary. Somebody would have had to fulfil those roles, and it makes sense to use them rather than new, one-off characters.
Keller's first scene also lets the audience that something's up when John doesn't know her - as far as I can tell, it would be easy to think from the teaser that he was just undercover or something.


Heck, when you boil down the story all it required was Shep as the hero, the wraith as the villain, and McKay as the bridge between Shep's world and the hidden truth of the SGC and the PG. Everyone else was ultimately extraneous.
Yeah, but then we'd have gone back to complaints about the McShep Show. :p


I think it's sad that people are even talking about the need to find a way to fit in two main cast members. It shouldn't be difficult at all. It should be expected.
It might be because I watch other shows where that's not the case, but I don't see a need for every character to appear in every episode.

Elanthra
January 8th, 2009, 07:12 AM
Well, I'm another that really loved this ep and it'll always be one that I'll watch over and over!

It was so... you know... alternate and will always stand out from all others.

Vegas was a moving and poignant portrayal of AU JSheppard, (yeah, I cried!)excellently acted by JF, and equally excellently directed and written by RCC. All underlined by a great choice of songs that fitted the storyline so well, especially Solitary Man at the end.

A plot flaw though in that surely the Wraith already know the location of Earth to be there in the first place? And anyway, Todd has probably known the location of Earth ever since he took over the Daedalus in Lost Tribe and had full access to its navigation systems?

And here's a question that's bugging me... is it possible that AUShep went through the rift too? The ripple thingey went right over his car. People have said that they could not understand why AUShep wasn't rescued - it seemed to be a whole lot darker when he decided to crawl forward, suggesting a passage of time, or place. I thought that if he'd gone through the rift, ended up on 'our' Earth, no one would have known he was there until someone from SGC actually physically investigated the source of the rift.

stclare
January 8th, 2009, 08:43 AM
Well said. I think for the majority of people who dislike it, dislike it because it was the second to last episode of Stargate Atlantis.

Well not me. I dislike this ep because I found the music over the top and some of the scenes felt like bad John Woo (do i mean JW im thinking broken arrow and face off) immitations. I didnt connect with the characters at all. The acting was good, I would not take anything away from them on that score. But the story did not engage me.

I think this ep is very polarising it seems you either like it or loathe it :o

Sorry

ToasterOnFire
January 8th, 2009, 09:44 AM
Perhaps, but in the case of the established characters, it was somewhat necessary. Somebody would have had to fulfil those roles, and it makes sense to use them rather than new, one-off characters.
Perhaps, but then again it would have been just as easy to have SGC extra #543 show up instead of paying Gary Jones a check just to see Walter, etc. etc.


Yeah, but then we'd have gone back to complaints about the McShep Show. :p
Hey, it's better than the McKeller Show. :D


It might be because I watch other shows where that's not the case, but I don't see a need for every character to appear in every episode.
I watch BSG, which could teach SGA a thing or two about actually writing for an ensemble cast. Obviously everyone in that huge cast doesn't appear in every episode. But, as someone else noted over on TWOP, I don't think that people here are merely upset over Teyla and Ronon not appearing in this ep. I think they're upset because the two team members who have always had the least amount of screentime, dialog, and development over the run of the series also happened to not be in the second to the last episode of the show. Some argue coincidence, others argue that their absence is merely a continuation of a pattern of neglect.

Briangate78
January 8th, 2009, 10:34 AM
I watch BSG, which could teach SGA a thing or two about actually writing for an ensemble cast. Obviously everyone in that huge cast doesn't appear in every episode.

BSG is worse when it comes to forgetting their characters, or they die and just end up being cylons anyway.

SGA could teach BSG a few things as well. ;)

Linda06
January 8th, 2009, 11:44 AM
It might be because I watch other shows where that's not the case, but I don't see a need for every character to appear in every episode.

And yet they managed to write John and Rodney into every single ep in it's run, even when they weren't needed!

maxbo
January 8th, 2009, 11:45 AM
I don't watch BSG, but Babylon 5 could certainly teach SGA how to write for an ensemble cast.

Promethius30
January 8th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Loved this episode i am glad they did not try and force ronan and teyla in to the ep it would just have made look like they trying to do so much. I enjoyed the inclusion of proper music like Johny Cash and the Rolling stones made a great change to the same old music that they seem to have.

ori soldier
January 8th, 2009, 01:25 PM
All the main characters were in this episode, Sheppard, Mckay, Wolsey and keller, zelenka and todd... yep thats all of them well except lorne and that girl whats her name, always in the background, never has any lines god whats her name... think it begins with a T...

Infinite-Possibilities
January 8th, 2009, 01:55 PM
I saw it recently and I finished thinking "what in the hell did I see just now?" Its not a simple decision how it was being good or bad by watching the episode like Brainstorm or First Contact were. I honestly don't know how to judge the eipsiode it was so strange. Ultimately though I don't think it worked as well as most did. I'm hoping this somehow means that Enemy at the Gate has twice as large a level of awesome.

Q

ToasterOnFire
January 8th, 2009, 03:27 PM
BSG is worse when it comes to forgetting their characters, or they die and just end up being cylons anyway.
Versus characters that die and end up being clones. Or ones that die and end up being a different actress.


SGA could teach BSG a few things as well. ;)
Yes, but I'm not thinking of the same lessons you are. :D

Briangate78
January 8th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Versus characters that die and end up being clones. Or ones that die and end up being a different actress.


Yes, but I'm not thinking of the same lessons you are. :D

Yeah it wouldn't hurt BSG to crack a joke once and awhile, and when they do, it is really bad. Nothing wrong with Humor mixed in a dark drama series.

Jumper_One
January 8th, 2009, 07:09 PM
IMForeman writes: “ Joe, how hard was it getting all the music heard in “Vegas”? I understand just getting “Have you ever seen the rain” in “Unending” was difficult.”

Answer: This is more a question for Rob but indications suggest the process was a lot easier on Vegas.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/january-8-2009-bob-checks-in-mailbag-and-the-weird-food-purchase-of-the-day/

EvenstarSRV
January 8th, 2009, 09:02 PM
Yeah it wouldn't hurt BSG to crack a joke once and awhile, and when they do, it is really bad. Nothing wrong with Humor mixed in a dark drama series.

I've personally always enjoyed the bits of humor in BSG, with my favorite still being all the 'who's a cylon' stuff in season 1's Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down. I think BSG's humor is played a bit more subtly than the humor in Stargate, for the most part, letting the situation be humorous instead of 'cracking a joke'.

And to keep this post from being too off-topic, I do agree with those who've said that Ronon and Teyla could have been included in this episode fairly seemlessly. It could have been something as simple as Ronon and Teyla leaving Todd's room and McKay refers to them as Pegasus natives who've come to earth to help find the wraith in a brief aside to Sheppard.

I don't think much dialog would even be necessary, but it would include them in the AU as much as Keller, Woolsey, and Zelenka's brief appearances. And personally, I would have cut out the mobsters' poker table banter entirely to get a scene like that, which I think would have contributed more to the story.

Corona
January 9th, 2009, 06:00 AM
I still think the story would be stretched too thin to accomodate Ronan and Teyla. IMO, I liked it as is. I hope you are more pleased with tonights episode. Ya can't please everyone.

The poker game was an artistic license to make a little humor by including the Sopranos guys. Whether it works or not can't be known until it airs and they get a reaction. I'm ok with it. Do we need a black velvet painting of Wraith Playing Poker? (Think dogs playing poker!) Could be a hot seller!

All right, as we wind this up I see about 10 hours to the replay of Vegas and then EATG and Sanctuary. My Sci Fi Friday!

To quote some of the gals here, "Squee!" Ok, that's strange.

Reality sucks, I need my escape.

Naonak
January 9th, 2009, 10:02 AM
I watch BSG, which could teach SGA a thing or two about actually writing for an ensemble cast. Obviously everyone in that huge cast doesn't appear in every episode. But, as someone else noted over on TWOP, I don't think that people here are merely upset over Teyla and Ronon not appearing in this ep. I think they're upset because the two team members who have always had the least amount of screentime, dialog, and development over the run of the series also happened to not be in the second to the last episode of the show. Some argue coincidence, others argue that their absence is merely a continuation of a pattern of neglect.

And yet they managed to write John and Rodney into every single ep in it's run, even when they weren't needed!
Well, John is the lead character.

I won't deny that Teyla and Ronon have been underused over the years (well, maybe not Ronon, but he's obviously gotten much less time than Shep and Rodney... he generally at least gets something to do though) but I don't see that they needed to be in - or would have even fit in - Vegas.

Linda06
January 9th, 2009, 10:27 AM
Well, John is the lead character.

I won't deny that Teyla and Ronon have been underused over the years (well, maybe not Ronon, but he's obviously gotten much less time than Shep and Rodney... he generally at least gets something to do though) but I don't see that they needed to be in - or would have even fit in - Vegas.

Yet they managed to find a way to put Rodney in Whispers and John in Tracker and Brain storm when they didn't need to be in it....My point being that if TPTB really want someone to be in the ep they'll find a way to do it...They don't seem to have the same kind of commitment when it comes to Teyla and Ronon!

nx01a
January 9th, 2009, 10:43 AM
The question has been raised before in this thread: Would you prefer them to show up for 30 seconds and say something useless before disappearing, or simply not be in the episode at all? If they were in it for 30 seconds, people would complain they weren't used effectively. I personally dislike forcing characters into an episode for a brief appearance; I'd rather they not be there at all. In this instance, we really don't know if Ronon and Teyla were even members of Atlantis and, if they were, having the Pegasus natives remain in Pegasus on Atlantis while the Earthers dealt with Earth matters on Earth makes far more sense.

Linda06
January 9th, 2009, 10:52 AM
They seem to have no problem putting John or Rodney in an ep for a minute or so when there's no need to....I dunno what the difference is *shrugs*

prion
January 9th, 2009, 10:57 AM
Nice review of the episode at the Chicago Tribune

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/stargate-atlant.html

DragonLadyK
January 9th, 2009, 11:04 AM
Do you actually know someone, who would get away with the stuff Sheppard has done to this point? Because I don't

It's tradition. Sam didn't get drummed out for handing over the ARW tech to RepliCarter in "Gemini" (stupid, stupid, stupid) and Jack never got busted for his mouth or haring off against orders, so why should Sheppard? In Stargate-land, being a crap officer is a-ok as long as you save the world while you're at it. ~.^

In reality-land you get thrown out for doing the right thing in the wrong way.


'Cause going after a wraith with a handgun is not suicidal?

A) We weren't told that Sheppard knew the Wraith was that well-armed, ergo, we may assume that he did not.
B) Sheppard didn't get the "do not engage" message because of the lack of cell service.
C) It was one Wraith in a silver bullet.

Therefore:

Going after one Wraith with a handgun =/= flying into a Hive ship with a nuke in the back of a Jumper knowing full well he's going to die instead of sending an essentially disposable underling.


See, we don't know that. At least not for certain. Any number of things could have made things turn out the way they did in this universe and the majority of them would have had nothing to do with the team or John Sheppard.

In absence of evidence to disprove my squee, my squee is still viable. Since we were not told conclusively that there are no Athosians or that Ronon died, I am free to assume that Teyla declined to ally with Sumner and that Weir made no offer to join Atlantis to Ronon.


Thing is, while this notion that all goodness, happiness, and rightness in the universe is dependent on John Sheppard being the John Sheppard we know and supposedly love is very romantic, it is also quite simplistic and negates to take into account the near infinite number of possibilities in a reality that could have contributed to the situation being what it was. And that the vast majority of them have nothing to do with John Sheppard.

No single person is that important, I'm sorry to say.

And I completely disagree with you 114%. There are entire philosophies devoted solely to, entire novels and television shows written about (Babylon 5 being the foremost example), and entire campaigns (like President Obama's) devoted to the impact one person can have on the world around him. Though any change for good will ultimately be undone by the generations following, one person can make a drastic impact on the world around him or her.

To say that "no one person is that important" is to say that Amnesty International would still be here if Peter Benenson had never been born, that the American civil rights movement would have been the same if Martin Luther King had never been born, and that World War II would have ended in the Allies' favor if Winston Churchill had never been elected, that the world would be the same place if Ghandi had been killed as a child. That is simply not the case. Every individual is a unique blend of personality, history, and ability and those individuals brought something uniquely their own to the events surrounding them and swayed the people around them to act in ways they might not or probably would not have otherwise.

The idea that every individual is an easily-replaced cog in the cosmic machine is a nice idea for oppressing the masses into fulfilling a mold, but as far as a statement of fact? I don't buy it.

John Sheppard is a screwed-up individual with all the unilateral arrogance of the Ancients he's descended from. He's not the ideal officer or even the ideal soldier, but he does draw people to him. He's the one who made the connection with Teyla and invited her people back to Atlantis, he's the one who reached out to Ronon and offered him a place despite Weir's hesitancy, he's the one who resoned with Teyla's offense in "Suspicion," he's the one who chose the members of his team (including McKay) that have formed such deep friendships with each other, and his team is out there doing the meet and greets and keeping the annoying little queen-to-be's alive.

Without John Sheppard's passion and his "people-sense" I find it entirely believable that The Team as we know it with its emotional attachments never formed. Without that attachment, McKay could easily (and did) turn into the hyper-nasty McKay we saw in this AU just as Sheppard stayed the solitary screw-up.

In my opinion, to say that Sheppard isn't important to Atlantis is to say that Daniel Jackson isn't important to the Stargate Program. It's a nice theory, but the fact remains that the realities without Danny got their butts kicked by the Goa'uld. ^^


Me thinks the fans would be burning effigies of TPTB were that the case. Possibly even TPTB themselves if they could get their hands on them.

We're already doing that becuase of Keller. ~.^


Jason said that he was really excited to go to Las Vegas... and then found out he wasn't.

Jason said he wanted to play the Wraith. That would have been AWESOME.


I don't really like any version of McKay these days.. used to like the character but now he's just too ott for my liking. Vegas McKay was calmer but also more, arrogant, smug, selfish, self absorbed and condensending. But yet he's loved by everyone in every universe whilst Sheppard who puts his life on the line constantly gets no thanks. In fact no one seems to bat an eye now at his self sacrificing tendancies.

Zelenka needs to deck him, IMO.

The fact that Radek never has... To quote House, "you can't be that good a person and be well-adjusted."


Pretty good episode. Although the "lol, we're being like CSI" and modern cinematography got old quickly.

Heh. For me it was like watching a CSI/SGA crossover that didn't have to pay William Petersen's huge salary or include any GSR. :D It's a highly individualized squee, I admit.


Radek, Woolsey, Keller, and even Todd did not need to be there.

Radek absolutely had to be there. Radek always has to be there. Especially if he's going to be in a suit while he's at it. *fans self*

There isn't an Anti-Radek thread or comm out there. While he's certainly not the most popular (i.e. has the most number of fangirls/boys), one could certainly make the case that he is the most generally well-liked character in SGA. It makes sense for TPTB to include him when they can.

Also, this ep would have been really hard to do as it was with Teyla. She would have just put the whammy on the Wraith or sensed his location and end of plot.

Of course, I would have had no objections to that ending. :D

DragonLady

Hermiiod
January 9th, 2009, 04:50 PM
I just watched it again for the fourth time. I agree with whoever said it, that Zelenka's suite looked like it was just bought.

Daniela
January 9th, 2009, 06:06 PM
I feel so stupid. I was watching an Atlantis rerun and after it ended came on what looked like CSI. I was so mad because I thought they were going to show Vegas (I didn't catch it last week). Then I saw Sheppard and I had a duh moment. I love how they parodied CSI. A very cool show and I love how they caught us up with alternate reality Rodney.

OhForCryinOutLoud
January 9th, 2009, 07:24 PM
Count me among those who really liked this one! I thought it was brilliant, and really hilarious. Of course a Wraith would be a Goth dude! And with an unfair advantage at Texas hold-em. Great visuals, great music.
It is only too bad that this is the one they used as the penultimate ep; too much expectation interferes with true enjoyment. Hard to believe they'll be able to wrap things up in any kind of satisfactory manner in one final episode.
Here's to hoping they can!

EvenstarSRV
January 9th, 2009, 07:34 PM
The question has been raised before in this thread: Would you prefer them to show up for 30 seconds and say something useless before disappearing, or simply not be in the episode at all? If they were in it for 30 seconds, people would complain they weren't used effectively. I personally dislike forcing characters into an episode for a brief appearance; I'd rather they not be there at all. In this instance, we really don't know if Ronon and Teyla were even members of Atlantis and, if they were, having the Pegasus natives remain in Pegasus on Atlantis while the Earthers dealt with Earth matters on Earth makes far more sense.

True, I usually roll my eyes when characters are given brief appearances in episodes for kinda silly reasons, like McKay in Whispers or Sheppard in Tracker.

But for SGA's penultimate episode, I personally would have preferred brief appearances by two of the show's main characters (one who's been there from the beginning) to the brief cameos made by the Sopranos actors.

As for Pegasus natives staying on Atlantis, I would think that if the AU McKay was back on Earth to track down a rogue Wraith, then the skills of a Runner and a person who can sense the Wraith would be quite useful.

I would also add that while the Sheppard character is obviously important to Atlantis in our reality, the fact that there was a successful Atlantis expedition in the AU suggests that it could exist without him. And if that's possible, I think that it's also possible that Teyla and Ronon could have joined the expedition without Sheppard's involvement.

But what's done is done. I enjoyed tonight's series finale, lots of teamy goodness, and loved the Sanctuary season finale. SciFi Friday indeed. :)

leiasky
January 9th, 2009, 09:38 PM
I'm not even going to attempt to read all the replies in this thread. But I'm going to leave my opinion anyway:)

I just saw this episode this evening, a week later than it originally aired. I'd heard the premise, read the spoilers and wasn't really interested. But as I waited for EatG to start, it was on, so we sat and watched it.

I'm not sure I can say a single good thing about the episode, unfortunately. The beginning nearly put me to sleep. It wasn't Stargate. Clearly the writer (who wrote this episode anyway?) either loves CSI Miami or just wanted to do something totally off the wall for a Stargate episode. A different way to get this 'signal' into the only reality of consequence to start the chain of reactions we see at EatG.

CSI SGA spent FAR too much time on shots that meant nothing to the plot. This episode didn't need to exist at all. EatG could have been a two-parter, with the 'signal' boost being part of the opening and all the extraneous Vegas, camera snapping scenes left out.

I didn't care about any of the characters, the music cues were off and poorly chosen, except for perhaps the 'Wraith' music. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure others don't share it.

thecowsaysmoo
January 10th, 2009, 01:59 AM
As someone who has never posted here for atleast 6 years atleast, and someone who has seen every single SG-1 episode, This vegas episode got me more interested in Stargate then i have been since season six of sg-1. This immediatley went into the top 10 all time stargate episodes for me.

Madeleine
January 10th, 2009, 05:43 AM
This was a fantastic ep.

I've never seen CSI. When I first saw the disconcerting camerawork and awkward editing, and heard the discordant music, it didn't evoke any other TV shows in particular, it just seemed atmospheric and different. Which emphasises that this was not our Shepherd and not our world.

I laughed aloud at the Beautiful People scene. It was perfect, and really clever. What a good job the make-up artist did with that: he really looked like an alien in disguise as a human, without looking too inhuman that the people around him would notice.

And there was a great death scene. I love a good death scene, and the main qualifying criteria are: A regular or longstanding character - Stays dead - Purpose of death - Manner of death.

This shouldn't be a particularly good one then: this guy is a stranger, and he dies in a fairly commonplace way, and if he stays dead then we know his alter ego is waiting for us next week. But it turned out good anyway, cos JF, DH and the scriptwiter and director between them made this Shepherd into someone who did matter. And the song made his death-by-bullet into something sad and horribly beautiful, rather than just something that happens to three redshirt TV cops a week.

I could have done without Walter. Alternate Universes need one or two characters we 'know' so that there is a way in for us, but the more there are the more it feels like a shoehorned contrivance.

But anyway. Did you hear that music? Did I mention how smashing it was?

LoneStar1836
January 10th, 2009, 12:43 PM
So I finally got around to watching this one last night right before the big send off, and well....I quite enjoyed this episode. So much so that I felt like saying so. The big send off, not so much.

I was rather skeptical about this episode based on early talk from tptb because it sounded like it was nothing but pure self-indulgence on the part of tptb...an episode to amuse themselves with.

And while I still think it was very much a self-indulgent episode, it turned out to be quite good. Something different. And considering how stale this season has been, imo of course ;), with the exception of a couple of eps like the Shrine, different is good...for me anyway.

I liked the stylized nature of the episode. It was visually interesting...the camera filters, lighting, scene settings, editing, action sequences, etc. etc.

It was very much the play on CSI like they said it would be. Though almost to the point of spoofing it rather than an homage as I thought some elements were over done in some places...particularly with the editing of some of the quick cuts as they seemed like overkill.

The story was very simplistic which I think worked in its favor as I'm not always a fan of the AU stories on Stargate. Moebius comes to mind.

I liked the inclusion of the music...especially the Johnny Cash song as I thought it was very fitting, especially at the end.

I thought DH did a great job as an AU Rodney. I like that they didn't write him as an OTT Rodney which gets on my nerves at times. I guess he was supposed to be like an AU version of Rod who was from an AU himself. lol. Loved the suit and shirt they had him in.

Yay! for the Zelenka appearance, who was looking quite sharp himself, btw, as well as the enjoyable appearance by Woolsey. Guess whose inclusion I didn't care for. :P

The Wraith dude was cool, and the inclusion of Todd was well, a bit weird. (I need to watch this ep again especially for that scene.) Though go Todd, because at least some version of him finally made it to Earth. I like that our Todd has been playing both sides against the middle for his own benefit, which I ultimately believed was the goal of Earth, or I liked to think it was anyway.

As to the distinct lack of Teyla and Ronon convo on the thread, well I don't think they would have fit with this ep. I mean I'm sure the writers could have written them in for token appearances if they had wanted to, but hell they can't even write them into "regular" episodes with any skill. :rolleyes:


And oh yeah, A-10 Thunderbolts! :cool: Love those planes. Used to live next to an Air Force base that had a squadron of Warthogs stationed there.



And there was a great death scene. I love a good death scene, and the main qualifying criteria are: A regular or longstanding character - Stays dead - Purpose of death - Manner of death.

This shouldn't be a particularly good one then: this guy is a stranger, and he dies in a fairly commonplace way, and if he stays dead then we know his alter ego is waiting for us next week. But it turned out good anyway, cos JF, DH and the scriptwiter and director between them made this Shepherd into someone who did matter. And the song made his death-by-bullet into something sad and horribly beautiful, rather than just something that happens to three redshirt TV cops a week. I like the way you put that, and I agree.

I thought his death was great and meaningful.

And considering this is Stargate where, for me, meaningful, great deaths are few and far between, it takes an AU story to do a fitting one. Janet's death in SG-1 takes the top spot for me even though...well she is the only one I can think of, atm that impacted me. (I kind of felt Daniel's original death was cheapened a bit with his subsequent coming back and dying several times.) I just finished rewatching the entire 5 seasons of Angel. Boy could they do great death scenes on that show. :(

Shep was my favorite character when the series started, but then my like for the character waned, and I've had mixed feelings for the character for the last several seasons...to the point of really disliking the character at times.

I quite enjoyed the Shep in this episode, and JF did a nice job portraying him...differentiating him just enough from the other one.

This was clearly a Shep character piece, and I enjoyed it. Even though it was an AU Shep.... lol. Which means it can be swept under the rug as it has no impact on the reality of consequence. Well okay except that his actions impacted "our" reality in a negative way, but saved his own. Heh.

Easily one of the best eps of the season for me. Course that was easy for me to say as I don't highly value many of the eps this season anyway.

Great episode overall. I enjoyed it.

:)

Rossifumi
January 10th, 2009, 03:25 PM
Okay here goes my 1st post!!
I loved this episode. Really different.
Anyway I have to know the type of boots Sheppard was wearing?
Wierd uh! No really!Wierd. Us Brits are like that....
Anyone??



BTW loved the music in this one. Have now got loads of Johnny Cash off of that there itunes.

nx01a
January 10th, 2009, 04:33 PM
Welcome! Glad to hear you loved it.
No idea on the shoes. Sorry.

Vala_M
January 10th, 2009, 06:49 PM
And yet they managed to write John and Rodney into every single ep in it's run, even when they weren't needed!

At they had 2 characters that were in every episode in Atlantis, in SG-1 no character was in every episode.

Vala,

hisg1fans
January 11th, 2009, 04:38 AM
I feel I should refine my position on Vegas after watching EaTG.

I liked the finale and didn't think it was rushed to make room for something un-related and self-indulgent. I still don't think Vegas was 'Stargate' and, even though it was a cool show with very cool music, I wonder why they didn't put as much creativity and effort into making 'Stargate' as they did 'non-Stargate'?

But, since Vegas didn't take away much from the finale, so I'll raise my opinion of the show somewhat.

Linda06
January 11th, 2009, 08:32 AM
At they had 2 characters that were in every episode in Atlantis, in SG-1 no character was in every episode.

Vala,

Exactly, some talk about not wanting to shoehorn characters into eps just to have them there but that's what they done with John and Rodney in certain eps but nothing was said about that :rolleyes:

RDAfan61
January 11th, 2009, 10:03 AM
I guess I am one of the rare ones and am down the middle on this episode. I too have never seen CSI so did not get that connection. I saw references to the X Files but I thought as did the hubster that it was very Millenium-esque. I wasn't too thrilled about the AU-ness of it though it did tie in to the final ep. I did love the cinematography in it. Some of the shots were just gorgeous. Liked the lighting in a lot of them too. The music was good for the most part although there was once or twice it got a bit overbearing.

Some points:

The car was a Chevy Camaro 1978 to 82 somewhere, they all looked pretty much the same. Rockford drove a 70s Firebird which, while very similar, was different. :p

The facial cut was fake I believe because in the wrap party footage on MGM's site he does not have it. If they were cutting out the scene on how he got it, I wonder why they left in the comments about it. Drew me out of it during those bits wondering where it came from and if it was real.

I'm one of those who was not thrilled with the bit in the desert at the end. As someone else said, you would think they would have sent in a clean up team to cover up any evidence that remained not matter how small and that Sheppard would have been found. Seemed very odd to me.

I thought Rodney's snark was quite different in this one as compared to his usual self. He was trying to get Sheppard to cooperate and so was trying to coerce him. If he knew him that well he should have realized from the start it wouldn't work. He was a very confident Rodney. His interaction with Zalenka, while I don't like, was typical and he was right in the end. :D

I could have done without the Soprano guys, didn't know that's who they were. The finger bit was pointless.

Over-all a good ep, just wish the placing wasn't how it ended up with it being the next to last.

EH-T
January 11th, 2009, 10:11 AM
I'm sure RC had lots of fun with this. Something very different for him after years of Stargate. Might make a good audition tape for Joe if he wants to star in a cop show next. However, I'm watching this show and not CSI for a reason. Not interested in CSI. Not interested in seeing this episode again.

Forestia
January 12th, 2009, 05:57 AM
I absolutely loved this ep! It is my favorite Atlantis ep. after "Echoes" and "Duet". CSI is one of my favorite shows, so I loved the homage to that and I also thought having the last episode take place in an alternate reality was rather clever. I thought the story was very interesting and I liked how it ended up connecting with the last ep. The music was awesome too, I would say there should be a soundtrack, but there was really only about 4 songs in the whole ep. Maybe they could add both the music with lyrics as well as instrumental music, and maybe songs inspired by the ep. to fill out the album. I'd totally buy it, whatever the case.

Speaking of music, I've always thought that hard rock stuff would be good for the Wraith, but it didn't really fit with the usual more scifi-ish eps, but I sure thought it worked here!

My favorite scenes are when John realizes that he should go back and try to stop the Wraith (when the flashbacks are playing while we here "Solitary Man" performed by Johnny Cash), when John is chasing the Wraith after he was playing cards with him and the card playing scene when the music is playing. All very cool scenes.

I agree that it would have been awesome if this became a spin off series. Maybe in the first ep we'd see that John was ok and the rest of the show would be about him solving crimes on earth, but he would also help Rodney and the others involved with the Stargate program. The characters in that reality are quite different in personality from the ones we are used to, so it's not as if it would feel like another Atlantis. Unfortunately it is not meant to be.

I've watched that ep. 3 times since Friday and I'm sure I'll watch it again before too long.

Also, I love Johnny Cash, so I think it's awesome that the AR John does too :)

Anuna
January 12th, 2009, 10:04 AM
Talk about a good episode!

I finally got the chance to see this, and finally, I actually enjoyed SGA in last two years. Also, we finally got an ep where the male lead gets to be the male lead - what was going on in the rest of this season exactly? I thought John Sheppard wasn't a recurring character - and though I had a sinking feeling, through the season, that the writers forgot about him completely.


Now, Vegas. Wow. Just wow. I don't have one single complaint about this episode. This ep sums up everything about John that I love, everything that makes him such a perfect imperfect hero. What makes him interesting as a character is that he isn't flawless, doesn't do only the good things, he makes mistakes and doesn't really apologize. He doesn't ask the viewer to be liked, you love him or you hate him. I don't think people can be indifferent toward him, and that's great.

This guy we saw in Vegas is like a glove turned inside out, or maybe not. I believe there are plenty of people who think he's very different from our version of Sheppard, but I don't think that really is the case. What makes 'our' John the hero, or more heroic than Vegas John is the fact that he has lot of people and an ancient city - space ship to protect.

I love the action and sci fi bits, but my favorite parts of any episode is character development. in Vegas, John finally got the overdue moments he deserved and lot of us wanted to see, and it's interesting how one single thing defines who he is and how low he let himself sink. (When he says he's got very little to lose, he's not bluffing, while on the other hand John from our reality still has the immense responsibility of protecting many, many people. )

I didn't find Vegas John unlikable at all. He is snarky, says lot of improper or impolite things ("What are you, my mother?"), but you can see there's more below the surface. They used AU Rodney (who is awesome, saying all the right things, in his elegant and sharp looking suit) to tell us more about this John Sheppard, who lives pretty much miserable life, who is simply existing (and funnily enough, that's the same vibe I've got from John in Remnants for example, like he's merely existing instead of living); but existing in another level of sadness, secluded in a bubble of his own, where nobody can reach him. Everything really comes down to that one thing that had ripped his heart out, doesn't it? Everything he says, he does or doesn't do, the way he looks, and walks around, in worn clothes that probably reeks of sweat and cigarette smoke, everything comes down to that field medic he couldn't save. IMO, and that's just my opinion - it ties right back to our John's reaction to losing Elizabeth Weir. You don't have to ship them together, but saying he didn't respect her, and she didn't mean a lot to him is not what we could see on screen through last two seasons. And this is a sort of acknowledgment that makes me very happy, because TPTW tried to do something what wouldn't happen in real life; in real life one doesn't forget their leaders, friends, people one cared about and who cared about them. You just can't deny that through seasons 4 and 5 John Sheppard turned dark and grim, and looked very sad. He's been acting like that ever since "Lifeline" and I find that significant.

Rob Cooper, I seriously heart you now. You gave us John Sheppard I always knew existed, the man who suffers because he lost the woman he loves. You can call it tacky all you want, it's canon now. Not that we didn't see that through the whole season 4 and 5, in more or less intensity, but various people chalked it up to many different things. I think mr. Cooper clarified things significantly. Through the whole show, there isn't any other significant female character John couldn't save, but Elizabeth Weir. Period.

The end was perfect. It was a gutsy move, and completely appropriate one too. I was waiting to see something like this for five years and it was worth it. John Sheppard never was a happy or cheerful character. A man like John Sheppard, the tragic one, one who walks away with nothing but Johnny Cash poster in his hand; is destined to die alone, like a dog. It doesn't make him any less heroic, fascinating and wonderful. In my opinion, Vegas sums up everything I love about John, all the wasted potential this character had, everything about him, and about John + Elizabeth that failed to be recognized on the part of TPTW. That's just my opinion, of course.

My other thoughts about the episode - the music was perfect, they payed a lovely hommage to CSI (who among TPTW is a CSI fan?), the Wraithy boy was too cool. The casino conversation was pure gold!! It was screaming mob movies at me. Zelenka in a suit with nicely trimmed hair was a real treat, and we had a great moment of Rodney - Zelenka bickering - some things never change, regardless of the universe, right?

Finally, Solitary man was a perfect choice. Perfect. Finally, Johnny Cash!!!! You can even make many parallels between John and Johnny Cash - both of them are imperfect heroes. It's so much easier living up to that kind of heroes.

Thumbs up mister Cooper. You rock. After watching this ep, some of the recent ones seem even worse than they originally did.

nx01a
January 12th, 2009, 01:26 PM
I loved the initial presentation of this Rodney as slightly sympathetic with Woolsey, willing to take a chance on Shep... then going into the room and going completely OUR Rodney on him.

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
January 12th, 2009, 10:07 PM
Ok how bout burn notice....or SVU or CI? :P ANy Crime show...........MONK!
:lol: Yes! Monk..... THAT I would love to see. LOL :D

DragonLadyK
January 12th, 2009, 11:19 PM
:lol: Yes! Monk..... THAT I would love to see. LOL :D

Is that before or after Ronon (or Sheppard) got so annoyed with Monk he shot him? ;)

DragonLady

Xenocide
January 14th, 2009, 05:39 PM
I now demand a full "Teal'c PI" episode :indeed:

Jumper_One
January 15th, 2009, 03:27 PM
from PM's Q&A on Joe's blog

RangerOne writes: “*How does the Wraith in Vegas know the location of the Ancient chair?”

Paul: Several people asked this, or related questions. My guess is that, as their hive was being attacked by drones, the Wraith would have been able to calculate the exact coordinates of the place where the hostile fire was coming from – that is, Area 51. Those were the coordinates the surviving Wraith sent in his message, which is how the super hive in our reality got them.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/january-15-2009-writerexecutive-producernotorious-recluse-paul-mullie-answers-your-questions/

Mitchell82
January 16th, 2009, 06:03 PM
from PM's Q&A on Joe's blog

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/january-15-2009-writerexecutive-producernotorious-recluse-paul-mullie-answers-your-questions/

Makes sense to me.

bedub1
January 17th, 2009, 09:05 AM
I have watched all the episodes from SG1, the movies, and all of Atlantis. This was by far a most excellent episode, especially since it is the only one that motivated me to create an account here to post this. No other episode accomplished that.

nx01a
January 17th, 2009, 09:40 AM
Welcome! Glad to hear you enjoyed. Sticking around for Universe?

bedub1
January 17th, 2009, 09:47 AM
Welcome! Glad to hear you enjoyed. Sticking around for Universe?
I'm not going anywhere....dunno how often I'll be here though....

Duneknight
January 17th, 2009, 02:48 PM
people keep saying that this is the coolest atlantis episode but i dont see that at all. first of all there is nothing stargatish about this episode. secondly, except for a couple of scenes, the whole thing looked ridiculous. am i the only one who thinks this episode is done badly in terms of directing and writing. it had good moments but overall its nothing to brag about. and what was so CSI about it? i didnt see any hint of that, except for some lousy flashbacks that had no purpose and one weird forensic scene, the rest of the episode dealt with a loner. since when was CSI about deadbeat loners? I think this episode wouldve been much better if it toned down the music, flashbacks and all that crap editing. i say it couldve been better if it took itself seriously and didnt try so hard to imitate.

Yanks4Life23519
January 17th, 2009, 03:10 PM
people keep saying that this is the coolest atlantis episode but i dont see that at all. first of all there is nothing stargatish about this episode. secondly, except for a couple of scenes, the whole thing looked ridiculous. am i the only one who thinks this episode is done badly in terms of directing and writing. i had good moments but overall its nothing to brag about. and what was so CSI about it? i didnt see any hint of that, except for some lousy flashbacks that had no purpose and one weird forensic scene, the rest of the episode dealt with a loner. since when was CSI about deadbeat loners? I think this episode wouldve been much better if it toned down the music, flashbacks and all that crap editing. i say it couldve been better if it took itself seriously and didnt try so hard to imitate.

I agree and disagree. It wasn't that the episode was "bad", it was just different. A lot of shows try a different approach on normal episodes...some work, some don't and in my opinion, I thought it was just okay. I didn't think the directing and writing were bad at all; they could have gone a different way, which I think might have been better, but again, that's just an opinion (everyone has them!).

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
January 17th, 2009, 10:50 PM
Is that before or after Ronon (or Sheppard) got so annoyed with Monk he shot him? ;)

DragonLady
Yes, I could definitely see that... Mr. Monk complaining about something for the hundredth time and Ronon rolling his eyes, whipping out his gun and stunning Monk on the spot. LOL


I now demand a full "Teal'c PI" episode :indeed:
:indeed: :P:D

discodiva
January 17th, 2009, 11:25 PM
I have watched all the episodes from SG1, the movies, and all of Atlantis. This was by far a most excellent episode, especially since it is the only one that motivated me to create an account here to post this. No other episode accomplished that.



My husband said more or less the same as you when he saw "Vegas".......I haven't persuaded him to open an account and start posting on here yet though.....;)



It must be pretty darn good though - he's kept it on the TV recorder to re-watch - and he NEVER does that!!!....:D


Next thing he'll be asking me to buy him a photo op with Joe F!!!....:rolleyes::P


Deeds xxx

Duneknight
January 18th, 2009, 04:07 AM
no it was different bad. the concept is good but executed badly. it had its themes all mixed up and finally it didnt know what it wanted to be.

Linda06
January 18th, 2009, 07:39 AM
people keep saying that this is the coolest atlantis episode but i dont see that at all. first of all there is nothing stargatish about this episode. secondly, except for a couple of scenes, the whole thing looked ridiculous. am i the only one who thinks this episode is done badly in terms of directing and writing. it had good moments but overall its nothing to brag about. and what was so CSI about it? i didnt see any hint of that, except for some lousy flashbacks that had no purpose and one weird forensic scene, the rest of the episode dealt with a loner. since when was CSI about deadbeat loners? I think this episode wouldve been much better if it toned down the music, flashbacks and all that crap editing. i say it couldve been better if it took itself seriously and didnt try so hard to imitate.

You're not the only one.....I thought it was a very bad CSI ripoff, we got no explanation on how the wraith managed to find earth, it didn't even feel like stargate, most of the music was annoying as hell :S I didn't like John in this ep...

So all in all it was the worse ep of the entire season :S

All this is JMO ;)

Ziva Z
January 18th, 2009, 08:11 AM
I watched this episode with my mom, who never watches Stargate. She absolutely loved it, and has now fallen in love with Joe. Good thing my dad wasn't in the room, cause she was fangirling with the best of them!;)
I think this beautiful episode is the best one this season, possibly the best of the entire series!
So cool, so sad, just incredible. :)
My mom and I both wish it was a series, we'd watch every week.

Duneknight
January 18th, 2009, 08:49 AM
I watched this episode with my mom, who never watches Stargate. She absolutely loved it, and has now fallen in love with Joe. Good thing my dad wasn't in the room, cause she was fangirling with the best of them!;)
I think this beautiful episode is the best one this season, possibly the best of the entire series!
So cool, so sad, just incredible. :)
My mom and I both wish it was a series, we'd watch every week.

so basically you want watch something thats not Atlantis. try FRINGE, your mom might like it too. but for me i want Atlantis, not the alternative reality one.

Ziva Z
January 18th, 2009, 09:08 AM
so basically you want watch something thats not Atlantis. try FRINGE, your mom might like it too. but for me i want Atlantis, not the alternative reality one.

I loved this AND traditional Atlantis, they are both great (other than certain romantic pairings this season, that shall remain unnamed ;))!
You are right, my mom might like Fringe!

Angarag89
January 18th, 2009, 04:26 PM
Vegas is much better than Enemy at the gates. McKay was pretty cool.

iceangler99
January 18th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Does anyone know the name of that western theme they play in the opening sequence.

Jumper_One
January 18th, 2009, 07:00 PM
check out RCC's Q&A on Joe's blog (http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/january-18-2009-series-creatorshowrunnerexecutive-producerwriterdirectorduck-smoker-robert-c-cooper-answers-your-questions/) ;)

jelgate
January 18th, 2009, 07:34 PM
I'm too lazy to read the whole thing. Is their any meantion of RCC's excuse why Ronon and Teyla were missing

Lythisrose
January 18th, 2009, 07:36 PM
I'm too lazy to read the whole thing. Is their any meantion of RCC's excuse why Ronon and Teyla were missing

yes :)

PG15
January 18th, 2009, 07:39 PM
And they will be including an extended edition (4 minutes longer; still, it's something) for the episode on the DVD.

YES.

Jumper_One
January 18th, 2009, 07:39 PM
I'm too lazy to read the whole thing. Is their any meantion of RCC's excuse why Ronon and Teyla were missing

yup ;)

Mel writes: “Questions for Mr. Cooper:

1. Was there a specific reason as to why Jason Momoa and Rachel Luttrell were not featured in Vegas? I just think that their characters could have been fit into the mix somewhere and was wondering why they were left out.

2. Was there anything you wrote for the episode that did not make the cut? If so, could you give an example?”

RC: I know many of you disagree but I really didn’t want to wedge Ronan and Teyla in someplace they didn’t belong. I think it would have been distracting. In fact, I think you could argue that without Sheppard being part of the program. Teyla and Ronan never became part of the team.

Yes, there were some scenes that didn’t make the cut for time and we have finished an extended version for the DVD’s that will include roughly four extra minutes of running time. Some of the changes are minor but some of the scenes had to be recut and the longer versions are quite different. Interestingly, in some cases, I’m not really sure which ones I like better. I guess I’m glad both exist.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/january-18-2009-series-creatorshowrunnerexecutive-producerwriterdirectorduck-smoker-robert-c-cooper-answers-your-questions/

Lythisrose
January 18th, 2009, 07:51 PM
A[mod snip]

Here is another part of his answers concerning this:


Pissed off Teyla Fan writes: “I don’t understand why the wraith were at earth…If John never went to Atlantis then the wraith wouldn’t have been alerted and they wouldn’t have gone to Athos and captured the earthlings, that’s how they found out about earth in our universe, right? Also I don’t understand why Teyla wasn’t in the ep…Some say it wouldn’t have made sense for her to be there but to me it made as much sense as the wraith being there…”

RC: My question for you is why can’t you imagine a scenario in which someone else wakes the wraith? Daniel Jackson perhaps? Or Colonel James Samuel. (I just made up that name.) Just because John Sheppard did it in the reality of the series doesn’t mean it can’t happen differently in the alternate reality. That’s what makes it alternate. To me, it seems you are actively trying to find a reason why this entire episode shouldn’t exist because you’re pissed off that Teyla wasn’t in it. Of course your reply to me might be, why couldn’t I imagine a good reason for Teyla to be in the episode? That is my failing.



I honestly think it was more that it was his creative choice not to write Teyla and Ronon in, not that he couldn't think of a way to do it. :)

Cautious Explorer
January 19th, 2009, 08:59 AM
Well, in that case I have to say I'm not pro-choice anymore...:(

At least not for certain SGA writers.

I will say, I enjoyed Vegas. I think the absence of Ronon and Teyla wouldn't have been so glaring if it hadn't been a constant throughout the season. And to add insult, they found room for half the crew and random guest cameos in the casino, worked in a spot for Keller, found a way to explain the presence of not just any random Wraith, but Todd, and then explained it away with the comment that it just wasn't a creative fit to include Teyla and Ronon -- because we all know that in an alternate reality the only two people who absolutely must stick to the rules of our Pegasus are Ronon and Teyla. :rolleyes:

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 10:14 AM
yup ;)

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/january-18-2009-series-creatorshowrunnerexecutive-producerwriterdirectorduck-smoker-robert-c-cooper-answers-your-questions/

hmm interesting.....So they don't want to wedge in Teyla or Ronon because they didn't belong huh........And yet it's ok to wedge in Sheppard and Rodney in certain eps :rolleyes: Yeah I like their logic *insert sarcasm here*

[mod snip.

:confused: Um who's Zelenka and Lorne? I seem to remember the names from somewhere but can't quite put my finger on it :S ;)


At least not for certain SGA writers.

I will say, I enjoyed Vegas. I think the absence of Ronon and Teyla wouldn't have been so glaring if it hadn't been a constant throughout the season. And to add insult, they found room for half the crew and random guest cameos in the casino, worked in a spot for Keller, found a way to explain the presence of not just any random Wraith, but Todd, and then explained it away with the comment that it just wasn't a creative fit to include Teyla and Ronon -- because we all know that in an alternate reality the only two people who absolutely must stick to the rules of our Pegasus are Ronon and Teyla. :rolleyes:

Yep pretty much :( Why couldn't Teyla and Ronon have joined the expedition....Like he said in that earlier post about someone else maybe waking the wraith.....Then isn't it equally as possible for someone else to meet Teyla then Ronon and have them join the team? Ronon is the best tracker in two galaxies and Teyla is our wraith detector (when they remember her wraith abilities that is) so they could have helped search for the rogue wraith!

Cautious Explorer
January 19th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Yep pretty much :( Why couldn't Teyla and Ronon have joined the expedition....Like he said in that earlier post about someone else maybe waking the wraith.....Then isn't it equally as possible for someone else to meet Teyla then Ronon and have them join the team? Ronon is the best tracker in two galaxies and Teyla is our wraith detector (when they remember her wraith abilities that is) so they could have helped search for the rogue wraith!

Exactly. So much reasoning into how someone else could have woken the Wraith, yet there's no other way the Athosians could have become allies (Hey, I think Shep's hot too, but I doubt that was Teyla's only motivation to form an alliance), no other means for the expedition to come across a runner (supposing Ford wasn't destined to go to Atlantis, get hooked on the enzyme, etc in their universe). What really kills me is Todd. Absolutely no explanation of how the Wraith who came in contact with Atlantis by helping Sheppard escape Kolya's clutches is conveniently a prisoner of the SGC in AU Vegas. And it's too hard to include Teyla and Ronon????

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 10:44 AM
Exactly. So much reasoning into how someone else could have woken the Wraith, yet there's no other way the Athosians could have become allies (Hey, I think Shep's hot too, but I doubt that was Teyla's only motivation to form an alliance), no other means for the expedition to come across a runner (supposing Ford wasn't destined to go to Atlantis, get hooked on the enzyme, etc in their universe). What really kills me is Todd. Absolutely no explanation of how the Wraith who came in contact with Atlantis by helping Sheppard escape Kolya's clutches is conveniently a prisoner of the SGC in AU Vegas. And it's too hard to include Teyla and Ronon????

Oh I forgot about Todd...Yeah he became somewhat of an ally (and I say that very loosly ;)) to Atlantis but he woildn't have even met the Atlantians if it wasn't for Shep getting captured by Kolya in the first place....So I wonder if there's an excuse for this little detail :rolleyes:

jelgate
January 19th, 2009, 10:45 AM
not they, just RCC. he wrote and directed VegasThere are other episodes where Teyla and Ronon were sidelined this season because TPTB don't know how to write alien. (Inquistion, Remanants, etc)

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 10:46 AM
not they, just RCC. he wrote and directed Vegas

Stop being so picky :p

It's not only him that's left Teyla and/or Ronon out of eps ;) Yet John and Rodney have never been left out of an ep :rolleyes:

Jumper_One
January 19th, 2009, 10:54 AM
There are other episodes where Teyla and Ronon were sidelined this season

ok but RCC answered the questions, not M&M or the other writers/producers and we're obviously talking about Vegas


[mod snip

[QUOTE=Linda06;9602803]Stop being so picky :p

It's not only him that's left Teyla and/or Ronon out of eps ;)

yeah but this is the Vegas thread and we're talking about RCC's Q&A regarding this ep which he wrote and directed


Yet John and Rodney have never been left out of an ep :rolleyes:

true but Shep and Rodney have always been more important than the other characters

Lythisrose
January 19th, 2009, 11:03 AM
:)
Stop being so picky :p

It's not only him that's left Teyla and/or Ronon out of eps ;) Yet John and Rodney have never been left out of an ep :rolleyes:

I think it might have something to do with the actor's contracts, no?
And although I deplore the lack of Ronon and Teyla this season, and would have been quite happy to see them somewhere in this episiode, it didn't stop me from believing that this is absolutely, positively the best episode that the Atlantis series has ever produced.
I loved every minute of it, and rewatching it several times has just increased my enjoyment and appreciation for all the detail, art, acting and musical talent that went into the production.

Madeleine
January 19th, 2009, 11:04 AM
Guys, this is the Vegas thread, not the assorted other episodes thread..

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 11:17 AM
true but Shep and Rodney have always been more important than the other characters

Yep that's what it comes down to...John and Rodney are "important" and Teyla and Ronon are, well, not!


:)

I think it might have something to do with the actor's contracts, no?
And although I deplore the lack of Ronon and Teyla this season, and would have been quite happy to see them somewhere in this episiode, it didn't stop me from believing that this is absolutely, positively the best episode that the Atlantis series has ever produced.
I loved every minute of it, and rewatching it several times has just increased my enjoyment and appreciation for all the detail, art, acting and musical talent that went into the production.

I don't think it's about their contracts....I just think the writers don't know what to do with them so instead of trying to figure out how to write them in it's easier for them just to leave them out *shrugs*

heh, that's where we differ...I thought this was the worse ep of the entire series...And no it's not just because Ronon and Teyla were not in it ;)

I didn't like this John one bit..
I didn't like most of the music, it was very annoying :o
There was no explanation how the wraith knew about earth (even SG-1 AU's made more sense had more explanations)
One I actually forgot, why would Todd be there :confused: It was Shep who come across him through Kolya...
It was a very bad CSI ripoff (and I love CSI ;))
It wasn't stargate...

Madeleine
January 19th, 2009, 11:22 AM
I for one was really REALLY glad not to see Ronon or Teyla in Vegas. What possible reason would there have been for anyone other than the earthlings to be there on earth? If alt-Teyla and alt-Ronon had anything to do with Atlantis they'd be doing their thing: fighting wraith, in Pegasus. I'm really glad I didn't have to see them doing their emphatically-not-thing: hanging about with bureaucrats and mathematicians billions of light years from the action. It would have been a bit lame and frankly bizzarre.

So good for RCC for avoiding that particular flaw.

It was sad* that alt-Shep was a sad-act shadow of his former self, but that wass kind of the point of the episode. To see Teyla and Ronon be superannuated aliens in residence, cowering in a nice cosy safe earth facility, would have been sad^ but (and this is worse, from a story-telling point of view) rather pointless.

*unhappy
^embarrassing

LoneStar1836
January 19th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Oh I forgot about Todd...Yeah he became somewhat of an ally (and I say that very loosly ;)) to Atlantis but he woildn't have even met the Atlantians if it wasn't for Shep getting captured by Kolya in the first place....So I wonder if there's an excuse for this little detail :rolleyes:Granted I'm not one for defending the writers. Far from it, but this is one time I find RCC's reasoning behind not including Teyla or Ronon perfectly acceptable. I didn't think they belonged, so why shoehorn them in. As far as the sheer mistreatment of them in the rest of the episodes in this season and others, well I won't defend that.

I can also accept that events in that reality could have played out close enough to our own even though Sheppard was never apart of the mission.

Maybe the AF discovered someone else who had the ATA gene and thus events played out somewhat similarly...thus Todd was discovered the same way as he was in our reality.

There is an infinite amount of what ifs to deal with that could result in events playing out closely to our own reality. Maybe in that reality Todd was never captured by Kolya and ran across the Atlantians some other way.

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 11:30 AM
Granted I'm not one for defending the writers. Far from it, but this is one time I find RCC's reasoning behind not including Teyla or Ronon perfectly acceptable. I didn't think they belonged, so why shoehorn them in. As far as the sheer mistreatment of them in the rest of the episodes in this season and others, well I won't defend that.

I can also accept that events in that reality could have played out close enough to our own even though Sheppard was never apart of the mission.

Maybe the AF discovered someone else who had the ATA gene and thus events played out somewhat similarly...thus Todd was discovered the same way as he was in our reality.

There is an infinite amount of what ifs to deal with that could result in events playing out closely to our own reality. Maybe in that reality Todd was never captured by Kolya and ran across the Atlantians some other way.

Maybe if Teyla and Ronon weren't so overlooked in the second half of the season I wouldn't have had a problem with them missing here, and maybe if this wasn't the penultimate ep I wouldn't have had a problem with them being missing...But I would have expected all the team members to be playing a part in the penultimate ep of the series ;)

jelgate
January 19th, 2009, 11:32 AM
Maybe if Teyla and Ronon weren't so overlooked in the second half of the season I wouldn't have had a problem with them missing here, and maybe if this wasn't the penultimate ep I wouldn't have had a problem with them being missing...But I would have expected all the team members to be playing a part in the penultimate ep of the series ;)Thats how I feel. I can understand a character or two missing from a few episodes. But when we are this far into the season and Ronon/Teyla have been absent/wallpapered so many times I start to get a little frusterated.

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Thats how I feel. I can understand a character or two missing from a few episodes. But when we are this far into the season and Ronon/Teyla have been absent/wallpapered so many times I start to get a little frusterated.

Wait wait wait...Back up......So are you saying you actually agree with me :D See told you I was always right :p

jelgate
January 19th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Wait wait wait...Back up......So are you saying you actually agree with me :D See told you I was always right :p

GW has drained me of my sanity.:P

Linda06
January 19th, 2009, 11:41 AM
GW has drained me of my sanity.:P

pfft you were drained well before then :p

bluealien
January 19th, 2009, 12:14 PM
I for one was really REALLY glad not to see Ronon or Teyla in Vegas. What possible reason would there have been for anyone other than the earthlings to be there on earth? If alt-Teyla and alt-Ronon had anything to do with Atlantis they'd be doing their thing: fighting wraith, in Pegasus. I'm really glad I didn't have to see them doing their emphatically-not-thing: hanging about with bureaucrats and mathematicians billions of light years from the action. It would have been a bit lame and frankly bizzarre.

So good for RCC for avoiding that particular flaw.

It was sad* that alt-Shep was a sad-act shadow of his former self, but that wass kind of the point of the episode. To see Teyla and Ronon be superannuated aliens in residence, cowering in a nice cosy safe earth facility, would have been sad^ but (and this is worse, from a story-telling point of view) rather pointless.

*unhappy
^embarrassing
It didnt have to be pointless... it's up to the writers to come up with a plausible believable scenario for them to be in the ep... the very same way they came up with a plauible believable way for Rodney to be in the ep... but the ptb seem to lack imagination when it comes to Ronon and Teyla.

They managed to put Todd in the episode so how was that believable... how did Todd get to earth... we assume the other younger wraith just crash landed there, but how did Todd end up on earth... and why Todd.. if Sheppard wasn't involved in the Stargate programme then he never met Koyla and therefore never met Todd..

RCC said in his Q & A that anyone could have woken up the wraith.. so if he's willing to change things so much and that Sheppard wasn't the one to wake the Wraith, then why is it such a big stretch that whoever did wake them or whoever was the leader of the expedition couldnt have made an alliance with the Athosians and therefore met Teyla.. ..

Anything is possible and it was up to the writers to come up with a creative way to put them in the episode and its sad that they couldn't think of anything...but unfortunately this has been the trend throughout the season... Inquistion being another prime example..

bluealien
January 19th, 2009, 12:17 PM
There is an infinite amount of what ifs to deal with that could result in events playing out closely to our own reality. Maybe in that reality Todd was never captured by Kolya and ran across the Atlantians some other way.

If there are an infinite amount of "what ifs", doesn't that mean there were an infinite amount of ways the ptb could have put Ronon and Teyla in the episode..

Southern Red
January 19th, 2009, 12:25 PM
:)

I think it might have something to do with the actor's contracts, no?
And although I deplore the lack of Ronon and Teyla this season, and would have been quite happy to see them somewhere in this episiode, it didn't stop me from believing that this is absolutely, positively the best episode that the Atlantis series has ever produced.
I loved every minute of it, and rewatching it several times has just increased my enjoyment and appreciation for all the detail, art, acting and musical talent that went into the production.

I absolutely agree with you. Vegas was a quality episode and makes me wish RCC had been the showrunner for all 5 years. Along with Joe Flanigan, who seemed at least judging by Cooper's discussion on JM's blog, to have a lot of input on Vegas. I hope they do another project together some time.


I for one was really REALLY glad not to see Ronon or Teyla in Vegas. What possible reason would there have been for anyone other than the earthlings to be there on earth? If alt-Teyla and alt-Ronon had anything to do with Atlantis they'd be doing their thing: fighting wraith, in Pegasus. I'm really glad I didn't have to see them doing their emphatically-not-thing: hanging about with bureaucrats and mathematicians billions of light years from the action. It would have been a bit lame and frankly bizzarre.

So good for RCC for avoiding that particular flaw.

It was sad* that alt-Shep was a sad-act shadow of his former self, but that wass kind of the point of the episode. To see Teyla and Ronon be superannuated aliens in residence, cowering in a nice cosy safe earth facility, would have been sad^ but (and this is worse, from a story-telling point of view) rather pointless.

*unhappy
^embarrassing

Oh my goodness yes, it just made so much more sense from a storytelling standpoint. And after all, RCC was in charge of this episode. He could include or exclude whoever he wanted. The whole infinite aspect of AU's seems to have been overlooked by a lot of posters. This was just one possible scenario. Fanfic always helps me when things don't go my way.:lol:

If they had done an AU based in Pegasus, would everyone have expected to see Walter somewhere as a bartender or a farmer? Or would we be talking about how ludicrous it was to wedge him in like that? Or would it depend on how big a Walter fan you are?

Super sad alt-Shep just touched my heart and gave us so much insight into what our Shep could have become without his friends in Atlantis. Great acting by JF and great writing by RCC.

Cautious Explorer
January 19th, 2009, 12:37 PM
If they had done an AU based in Pegasus, would everyone have expected to see Walter somewhere as a bartender or a farmer? Or would we be talking about how ludicrous it was to wedge him in like that? Or would it depend on how big a Walter fan you are?


The inclusion of Walter of all people, once again, just affirms my opinion that TPTB could have easily included Teyla and Ronon in some way.

As others have pointed out, there are infinite ways this could have been set up, yet of course, we have McKay present (no other scientist available?), we have Woolsey (what are the odds?) and of course, everyone's favorite what-the-heck-is-he-doing-here-again cameo from Walter. Yet, it was far too much of a creative leap to include two of the lead actors on the show.

I know it's a sore point for me because of the shoddy treatment of Ronon and Teyla throughout the season. If they had been included in a substantial way in the majority of the season's episodes, it probably wouldn't have grated so. Throw in more McKay, and of course we must have Keller, plus a few other sundry bit players and it's beyond irritating. Then to have people try to justify (not necessarily RCC) that Ronon and Teyla just didn't belong in an AU universe is beyond frustrating.

I did very much enjoy Vegas. I thought JF did a terrific job, as usual, and I'm beyond glad that he finally got a moment to shine.

Southern Red
January 19th, 2009, 12:44 PM
The inclusion of Walter of all people, once again, just affirms my opinion that TPTB could have easily included Teyla and Ronon in some way.

As others have pointed out, there are infinite ways this could have been set up, yet of course, we have McKay present (no other scientist available?), we have Woolsey (what are the odds?) and of course, everyone's favorite what-the-heck-is-he-doing-here-again cameo from Walter. Yet, it was far too much of a creative leap to include two of the lead actors on the show.

I know it's a sore point for me because of the shoddy treatment of Ronon and Teyla throughout the season. If they had been included in a substantial way in the majority of the season's episodes, it probably wouldn't have grated so. Throw in more McKay, and of course we must have Keller, plus a few other sundry bit players and it's beyond irritating. Then to have people try to justify (not necessarily RCC) that Ronon and Teyla just didn't belong in an AU universe is beyond frustrating.

I did very much enjoy Vegas. I thought JF did a terrific job, as usual, and I'm beyond glad that he finally got a moment to shine.

Uh, I think you missed my point. I was saying that Walter would not have been in an AU set in the Pegasus Galaxy. And that would have made sense. Just like not having Ronon and Teyla in Vegas made sense. But having Walter in Vegas did make sense because he is a part of the SGC and probably would be in any other AU. Now I've confused myself.

But the point is RCC did it. He chose to do it that way. And since he had very little to do with the rest of the season, we can't blame him for the lack of Ronon and Teyla in all the other eps. Just Vegas.

Ruined_puzzle
January 19th, 2009, 12:48 PM
I feel that if Ronon and Teyla would have been included it would have been pointless Ronon and Teyla. What would they have done that Mckay didn't already do? They really can't technobabble like Mckay, they would have been wallpaper and people would have complained about that.

Cautious Explorer
January 19th, 2009, 12:57 PM
Uh, I think you missed my point. I was saying that Walter would not have been in an AU set in the Pegasus Galaxy. And that would have made sense. Just like not having Ronon and Teyla in Vegas made sense. But having Walter in Vegas did make sense because he is a part of the SGC and probably would be in any other AU. Now I've confused myself.

But the point is RCC did it. He chose to do it that way. And since he had very little to do with the rest of the season, we can't blame him for the lack of Ronon and Teyla in all the other eps. Just Vegas.

Wanna bet? I have a hunch there would have been a perfectly plausible way (to TPTB) to squeeze him in. :p

And I think you missed my point as well. I agree that there are some things that may or may not fit in an AU. But there were certainly some things (Todd is a good example) that certainly didn't fit without some convoluted logic. So why exclude some major players from Pegasus? It's possible for someone else to wake the Wraith, run across Todd, but not to become acquainted with Ronon or Teyla?

In the end, it all comes down to personal preference (which is my point), not logic. I'm frustrated by people trying to turn it into some kind of logical deduction that Keller is there instead of Beckett, Walter instead of Chuck, Woolsey instead of Landry, etc.

I'm not placing total blame on RCC. I don't believe I ever said that. But someone was responsible for the huge lack of Teyla and Ronon this season. It would be nice if someone had been in charge of seeing that the season was balanced as a whole, but I guess that's wishing for the impossible. :rolleyes:

Southern Red
January 19th, 2009, 01:41 PM
Wanna bet? I have a hunch there would have been a perfectly plausible way (to TPTB) to squeeze him in. :p

And I think you missed my point as well. I agree that there are some things that may or may not fit in an AU. But there were certainly some things (Todd is a good example) that certainly didn't fit without some convoluted logic. So why exclude some major players from Pegasus? It's possible for someone else to wake the Wraith, run across Todd, but not to become acquainted with Ronon or Teyla?

In the end, it all comes down to personal preference (which is my point), not logic. I'm frustrated by people trying to turn it into some kind of logical deduction that Keller is there instead of Beckett, Walter instead of Chuck, Woolsey instead of Landry, etc.

I'm not placing total blame on RCC. I don't believe I ever said that. But someone was responsible for the huge lack of Teyla and Ronon this season. It would be nice if someone had been in charge of seeing that the season was balanced as a whole, but I guess that's wishing for the impossible. :rolleyes:

In response to your question in bold. My answer is yes. There are an infinite number of possibilities, so yes.

Since this is the Vegas thread, I don't think the lack of Teyla/Ronon really applies to the discussion. It just all comes down to our opinion anyway. I think Vegas was the best thing since canned soup. Loved every single little minute of it: the music, the acting , the directing, the writing. Vegas was just a tour de force. So, you're right, it does come down to personal preference. :D

Cautious Explorer
January 19th, 2009, 01:48 PM
In response to your question in bold. My answer is yes. There are an infinite number of possibilities, so yes.

Since this is the Vegas thread, I don't think the lack of Teyla/Ronon really applies to the discussion. It just all comes down to our opinion anyway. I think Vegas was the best thing since canned soup. Loved every single little minute of it: the music, the acting , the directing, the writing. Vegas was just a tour de force. So, you're right, it does come down to personal preference. :D

That was a rhetorical question. :p

I'm glad we can agree on something. I loved Vegas, for the most part. Cut out Rodney's exposition fest and it was great! There was enough JF, at last, to keep me happy. Still, there are a few things that would have made it better for me.

nx01a
January 19th, 2009, 02:36 PM
It didnt have to be pointless... it's up to the writers to come up with a plausible believable scenario for them to be in the ep... the very same way they came up with a plauible believable way for Rodney to be in the ep... but the ptb seem to lack imagination when it comes to Ronon and Teyla.While I think that they had no place on Earth helping Rodney et al against the Wraith, a scene with Woolsey asking Teyla and Ronon [with short hair!] via subspace how Atlantis and Pegasus were doing... That might have been a way to force them in there, if extremely necessary.
Whether or not Ronon and Teyla got what some believe was adequate screen time in other episodes this season or not, they were not necessary for this episode.

bluealien
January 19th, 2009, 02:51 PM
While I think that they had no place on Earth helping Rodney et al against the Wraith, a scene with Woolsey asking Teyla and Ronon [with short hair!] via subspace how Atlantis and Pegasus were doing... That might have been a way to force them in there, if extremely necessary.
Whether or not Ronon and Teyla got what some believe was adequate screen time in other episodes this season or not, they were not necessary for this episode.

It was not a matter of having to force them in but write them in realistically and in this case RCC chose not to include them in his version and yes that is his perogative but it doesnt mean that they couldnt have been written in as easily as Rodney was if he had wanted to include them..

He found a way to include Todd so again he could have included Teyla... she could have travelled to earth with McKay. If McKay is the leader of the expedition what's so far fetched about him forming an Alliance with the Athosians..and therefore meeting Teyla.. its really not all that difficult .. but maybe RCC didnt want to include them because he probably found it easier just to write in McKay.. isn't that the reason that has been used before by the writers.. no problem with putting McKay into every situation but Ronon and Teyla seem to tax their writing abilites for some reason....:mckay:

EvenstarSRV
January 19th, 2009, 04:43 PM
I for one was really REALLY glad not to see Ronon or Teyla in Vegas. What possible reason would there have been for anyone other than the earthlings to be there on earth? If alt-Teyla and alt-Ronon had anything to do with Atlantis they'd be doing their thing: fighting wraith, in Pegasus. I'm really glad I didn't have to see them doing their emphatically-not-thing: hanging about with bureaucrats and mathematicians billions of light years from the action. It would have been a bit lame and frankly bizzarre.


Granted I've only seen this episode once, but I got the impression that in this AU McKay lived/worked on Atlantis, but was recalled to Earth in order to help hunt down the rogue Wraith.

GW Transcript:


McKAY: My team and I usually operate out of Atlantis in the Pegasus galaxy but we were called back to Earth to deal with this situation because of our expertise with the Wraith. Now, the one that you've encountered has obviously been doing a fairly good job of blending in.

Since this was McKay's reason for coming back to Earth, I think it would have made perfect sense for Ronon and Teyla to come to Earth to help with the search, since he's a former Runner and she can sense the Wraith. They would be on Earth doing what they've grown up doing, dealing with the Wraith, albeit this time on Earth instead of in the Pegasus galaxy.

I don't feel that just because the story took place on Earth there was no place for Ronon and Teyla, because the action in this episode involved the Wraith and they are the two SGA characters that have the most experience dealing with the Wraith.

Lythisrose
January 19th, 2009, 05:39 PM
I can see where people are coming from, wishing that Ronon and Teyla had found their way into this episode.
Hey, my biggest complaint this season has been the distinct lack of team, team bonding and the over-emphasis on a certain unnamed pairing. ;)

Given that I feel one of the problems with this season was lack of characterization for my favorite characters, this episode was like an oasis in the desert, so to speak.

Taking it solely on it's own merits, without attaching the baggage that is the lack of the rest of the team, I think it was a brilliant character study of Sheppard, what he could have been and what he actually is at his core. And we have never had that for him. I truly appreciated the opportunity to get this glimpse into the psyche of Det. John Sheppard. I liked seeing the alternate McKay too, a much colder version, to be sure, but fascinating nonetheless. :):cool:

It is truly a shame that there was not enough of Ronon and Teyla shown in previous episodes throughout the series. If they had had decent development and screen time, this episode would not have been so much of a reinforcement of their absence. So I would blame the show runners for the overall thematic direction of the season, not the actual writing or production of this particular episode. :(

Which by, the way, I LOVED! (sorry, just can't say it enough!:p)

nx01a
January 19th, 2009, 06:55 PM
Since this was McKay's reason for coming back to Earth, I think it would have made perfect sense for Ronon and Teyla to come to Earth to help with the search, since he's a former Runner and she can sense the Wraith. They would be on Earth doing what they've grown up doing, dealing with the Wraith, albeit this time on Earth instead of in the Pegasus galaxy.
I don't feel that just because the story took place on Earth there was no place for Ronon and Teyla, because the action in this episode involved the Wraith and they are the two SGA characters that have the most experience dealing with the Wraith.If Zelenka, Woolsey, Rodney and Keller are on Earth, who's running Atlantis and all the off-world missions? Lorne? Chuck? Amelia? :P I say that the best split would have been to have the Pegasus natives remain in Pegasus and keep things under wraps there, while the majority of Earthers dealt with Terran business. Would Ronon or Teyla have been able to pick up on the leaking fluid or the power lines? Maybe, maybe not.
Still, we don't even know if they were members of Atlantis in that reality.

LoneStar1836
January 19th, 2009, 07:28 PM
Maybe if Teyla and Ronon weren't so overlooked in the second half of the season I wouldn't have had a problem with them missing here, and maybe if this wasn't the penultimate ep I wouldn't have had a problem with them being missing...But I would have expected all the team members to be playing a part in the penultimate ep of the series ;)And see that is where I'm the opposite. I was already so anesthetized to Ronon and especially Teyla already being wallpapered for soooo long that another episode of the same is par for the course.

Though they didn't get the chance to be papered in this one since they weren't in it. And papered they most likely would have been if they had actually appeared in this episode. They would have been there for some kind of token (and I mean that in the derogatory sense) appearance.

Even though this ep was the second to last ep of the season and served as a minor set up to the finale, it was clearly a Sheppard character piece, not a team/ensemble episode so for me it worked that the characters were left out because for me it kept the story a bit tighter.

It didnt have to be pointless... it's up to the writers to come up with a plausible believable scenario for them to be in the ep... the very same way they came up with a plauible believable way for Rodney to be in the ep... but the ptb seem to lack imagination when it comes to Ronon and Teyla.They pretty much lacked that since day one. Nothing new there.

They managed to put Todd in the episode so how was that believable... how did Todd get to earth... we assume the other younger wraith just crash landed there, but how did Todd end up on earth... and why Todd.. if Sheppard wasn't involved in the Stargate programme then he never met Koyla and therefore never met Todd..Why not Todd? He is the most recognizable Wraith on the show. It adds more impact that it is a Wraith we know rather than just some nobody.

How did he get there? Who knows. I would like somebody to explain that to me as well, but I just kind of glossed over that part of the episode and didn't try to make any sense of it.

I just figured he showed up the same way as that other Wraith but somehow Todd was captured. That or they brought him back from Pegasus. Or maybe he came from an AU. You could probably make up any answer you wanted unless it was explained in the ep and I totally missed it. I was kind of lost on the conversation because I couldn't tell if Todd actually knew Sheppard or was he just reading his mind or something. :S Maybe all this was discussed in the thread already but I'm not going back to read through it. :P


RCC said in his Q & A that anyone could have woken up the wraith.. so if he's willing to change things so much and that Sheppard wasn't the one to wake the Wraith, then why is it such a big stretch that whoever did wake them or whoever was the leader of the expedition couldnt have made an alliance with the Athosians and therefore met Teyla.. .. Maybe they did but there was no need to mention it in the episode. Maybe they did find Teyla just like in Rising but she was captured just like in Rising but was killed rather than rescued. Maybe she had her baby and decided to no longer be a part of Atlantis. Maybe they never ran into Ronon. Maybe Ronon never became a runner. Maybe Ronon was dead. There are plenty of reasons for them not to be in the episode.

I understand where people are coming from...that the characters/actors were shafted in this episode because they were completely left out, but they've been screwed over pretty much all season. :rolleyes:


If there are an infinite amount of "what ifs", doesn't that mean there were an infinite amount of ways the ptb could have put Ronon and Teyla in the episode..Well of course they could have easily put both of the characters in the ep. But would it have been a meaningful appearance? Would it have added to the story? My answer...no.

I mean I could have completely done without the Keller appearance, but since they were doing the whole CSI thing, you gotta pay the obligatory visit to the coroner. I'd have rather it been Carson starring as the coroner (to get in a PM appearance) but oh well.


I really liked this episode. First one in quite a while, tbh.:)

EvenstarSRV
January 19th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Given that I feel one of the problems with this season was lack of characterization for my favorite characters, this episode was like an oasis in the desert, so to speak.

Taking it solely on it's own merits, without attaching the baggage that is the lack of the rest of the team, I think it was a brilliant character study of Sheppard, what he could have been and what he actually is at his core. And we have never had that for him. I truly appreciated the opportunity to get this glimpse into the psyche of Det. John Sheppard. I liked seeing the alternate McKay too, a much colder version, to be sure, but fascinating nonetheless. :):cool:


I agree this episode was quite a character study of Sheppard, which I admit probably contributed to why it failed to gain my interest because I've never been particularly fond of the character.

I also prefer character-centric episodes where the respective character is explored in relation to their teammates, like McKay in the The Shrine, as opposed to character exploration done in isolation like Sheppard in this episode.

But as always, different strokes, different folks. :)


If Zelenka, Woolsey, Rodney and Keller are on Earth, who's running Atlantis and all the off-world missions? Lorne? Chuck? Amelia? :P I say that the best split would have been to have the Pegasus natives remain in Pegasus and keep things under wraps there, while the majority of Earthers dealt with Terran business. Would Ronon or Teyla have been able to pick up on the leaking fluid or the power lines? Maybe, maybe not.
Still, we don't even know if they were members of Atlantis in that reality.

Well, considering this Sheppard was not apart of the Atlantis expedition, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine Lorne as the military commander of Atlantis, who would be quite capable of 'keeping things under wraps' while the others were gone, as I believe he's done a few times in the series.

Also, it was my understanding that the 'Terran business' in this episode was directly related to the Wraith, something definitely not 'Terran'. Why wouldn't McKay want to bring along the two SGA characters that come closest to being Wraith experts? And, would Teyla have even needed to pick up on fluids and powerlines if she could sense him?

As for whether Ronon and Teyla were part of the expedition in this AU you're right, it was never explicitly stated one way or the other. But I don't think it's a stretch to imagine Teyla and Ronon joining Atlantis perhaps through their contact with Major/Lt. Colonel Lorne instead of Major/Lt. Colonel Sheppard.

Madeleine
January 20th, 2009, 01:41 AM
It didnt have to be pointless... it's up to the writers to come up with a plausible believable scenario for them to be in the ep...
Or it's up to the writers to tell a really good story, and use the characters who will do it really well, and not shoehorn extraneous bits and pieces in just for the sake of being able to match names in the titles to faces in the story.


If there are an infinite amount of "what ifs", doesn't that mean there were an infinite amount of ways the ptb could have put Ronon and Teyla in the episode..

There was probably an infinite way they could include Janet, Grodin, Kavannagh and a klingon. Doesn't mean it would have improved the already-excellent story.

Linda06
January 20th, 2009, 09:05 AM
It's funny how when someone is left out of an ep instead of being shoehorned in it's always Teyla and/or Ronon...It's never John or Rodney :mckay:

Nope, they don't seem to have a problem shoehorning them into an ep just so they can say they were in every ep of the series :rolleyes:

Naonak
January 20th, 2009, 10:20 AM
Or it's up to the writers to tell a really good story, and use the characters who will do it really well, and not shoehorn extraneous bits and pieces in just for the sake of being able to match names in the titles to faces in the story.
Indeed.


It's funny how when someone is left out of an ep instead of being shoehorned in it's always Teyla and/or Ronon...It's never John or Rodney :mckay:

Nope, they don't seem to have a problem shoehorning them into an ep just so they can say they were in every ep of the series :rolleyes:
But we aren't talking about those episodes here, we're talking about Vegas, which worked fantastically without them.

And Joe F/John is the lead actor, so I think it's fair enough that he's in every episode. The only occasion I can think of when a lead actor hasn't appeared in an episode of a show is RDA in SG-1, and that was due to his own personal reasons.

Madeleine
January 20th, 2009, 10:43 AM
It's funny how when someone is left out of an ep instead of being shoehorned in it's always Teyla and/or Ronon...It's never John or Rodney :mckay:

Nope, they don't seem to have a problem shoehorning them into an ep just so they can say they were in every ep of the series :rolleyes:

I think it's probably a factor of John and Rodney being particularly versatile characters. After all, who better than Shep could have been reinvented as a disaffected cop: Ronon and Teyla wouldn't have managed that terribly well. And who would have been not only on Earth, but with enough clout to introduce an uninitiated cop to this major secret, besides Rodney: several names come to mind as equally good... but not Teyla or Ronon.

They're all different characters and can't all serve the same function. There isn't aways a left winger on a (european) football pitch, there's not always a sweeper; and the left winger and sweeper might sometimes get rested. There's ALWAYS a goalkeeper and a captain though. Vegas was one of those not-everyone-can-play eps. If the football is good and the team wins, most people will be happy :)

Linda06
January 20th, 2009, 11:11 AM
I think it's probably a factor of John and Rodney being particularly versatile characters. After all, who better than Shep could have been reinvented as a disaffected cop: Ronon and Teyla wouldn't have managed that terribly well. And who would have been not only on Earth, but with enough clout to introduce an uninitiated cop to this major secret, besides Rodney: several names come to mind as equally good... but not Teyla or Ronon.

They're all different characters and can't all serve the same function. There isn't aways a left winger on a (european) football pitch, there's not always a sweeper; and the left winger and sweeper might sometimes get rested. There's ALWAYS a goalkeeper and a captain though. Vegas was one of those not-everyone-can-play eps. If the football is good and the team wins, most people will be happy :)

Well like I said earlier, if Teyla and Ronon weren't so overlooked in the second half of the season and if this wasn't the penultimate ep I wouldn't have had such a problem with it....

But I still don't understand why they couldn't come up with an ep where they included all the team.....It seems to me every time a character has to get sacrificed for an ep it's always Teyla and/or Ronon *shrugs*

It seems to be very unbalanced when it comes to characters!

Infinite-Possibilities
January 20th, 2009, 04:25 PM
My issues with this episode were mainly that it consisted entirely of characters we didn't know doing things that didn't affect anyone we knew until the end. Even Todd couldn't make me love this episode and that's a big accomplishment of sorts. We weren't really seeing Todd though were we? Its was just AU Todd. He didn't really have any connection with Sheppard at all. I usually enjoy AU's because it allows writers to explore all manner of creative variety of permutations of the show, (I really enjoy watching this and actually is one of the basis fro my screen name) but in this case it was all too different for me to connect with any of them. It didn't feel all that Stargate like. It also felts kind of jumbled and not well paced even from a . Not much seemed to happen until exceedinly late. And the loner Wraith didn't have any lines. I have to give credit for trying to work something new though, I can't really fault them there, even if I wasn't thrilled with the final product.

Lt.Colonel John Sheppard
January 27th, 2009, 09:31 AM
there are some many good scenes in this episode that i cant name them all but the best one was when Solitary man plays sheppard turns his car arounds and redeems himself and has that shoot out with the wraith best part of the episode.

GateEngineer17
January 28th, 2009, 09:38 PM
Plot/universe question for the Vegas AU:

We know from the episode that the Ancient Control Chair is at Area 51 in the Vegas AU.

Is there any reason to believe the Earth Stargate and the main Stargate Command Center are anywhere other than the Cheyenne Mountain Complex in the Vegas AU? I can't find anything in the ep to suggest otherwise.

Thanks for your insights!

jelgate
January 29th, 2009, 03:26 AM
Anything is possible but there was nothing to suggest in the episode's canon that the SGC has been moved.

GateEngineer17
January 29th, 2009, 08:15 PM
Anything is possible but there was nothing to suggest in the episode's canon that the SGC has been moved.

Thank you - that's what I thought, but it's always good to have a second (or mulitple) set of eyes to check.

So it would seem that anyone traveling from Atlantis to Earth and needing to go to Area 51 (AU!Rodney, for example) would first need to come through the 'gate at the Cheyenne Mountain Complex in Colorado and then travel, presumably by air, to Nellis AFB, in Nevada, where Area 51 is located.

jelgate
January 29th, 2009, 08:23 PM
More or less. Since this is AU anything is possible. What we know for a fact is that AU Rodney would have to enter through the Earth gate wherever that is.

GateEngineer17
January 30th, 2009, 07:10 PM
More or less. Since this is AU anything is possible. What we know for a fact is that AU Rodney would have to enter through the Earth gate wherever that is.

True, AU means anything goes. So here's another question . . . it's been a long time since I saw the original Stargate movie and the early SG-1 eps . . . was there ever any reason given as to why the original Egypt Stargate and the SGC were originally set up at Cheyenne Mountain as opposed to Area 51, etc.? Was it for simply for the protection of the gate like Cheyenne Mountain provided protection for North American Air/Space defense operations?

Guess I need to get out my early SG disks and rewatch! :)

jelgate
January 30th, 2009, 07:13 PM
Becasue Area 51 is under civilian control while Cheyene Mountain has more military contol

GateEngineer17
January 30th, 2009, 07:29 PM
Becasue Area 51 is under civilian control while Cheyene Mountain has more military contol

If you don't mind my asking - is that a speculation, or was that stated specifically in an ep - if so, which one, if you know?

I would have assumed that Area 51 would be very military, as it is smack dab in the middle of the Nevada Test Site and Nellis AFB. There are civilian contractors working there, but as far as I know (in real life, that is), the military has control. The exterior shots in Vegas of AU!John and AU!Rodney certainly seemed to suggest a very military operation. So did the "command center" from which they called for the Warthog strikes on the Wraith's RV.

Cheyenne Mountain is/was also under the auspices of the USAF, even though NORAD ops have now been moved to Peterson AFB near Colorado Springs.

Just curious as to how it all fits together.

bluealien
February 2nd, 2009, 01:23 PM
Or it's up to the writers to tell a really good story, and use the characters who will do it really well, and not shoehorn extraneous bits and pieces in just for the sake of being able to match names in the titles to faces in the story.

It's up to the writers to try and tell a good story while utilising most of their cast which they failed miserably this season... they don't seem to have much problem shoehorning McKay into nearly every episode so why is it soo difficult to come up with stories that include Ronon and Teyla. There were umpteen ways they could have included Teyla and Ronon but they didnt want to... because they're happy with their predictable formula, which is loads of McKay with a bit of Sheppard on the side.. and the best thing they could think of for Sheppards character was to kill him off..


There was probably an infinite way they could include Janet, Grodin, Kavannagh and a klingon. Doesn't mean it would have improved the already-excellent story.

How do you know it wouldnt. I didnt find it an excellent story. Far too much McKay and the pointless dragged out casino scenes were utterly boring. Just anther excuse for the writers to show Rodney as being so important in every universe and Sheppard the screw up and sacrificial lamb. Nothing new here.. Cant they do without Rodney being the centre of the universe for a change and try and incorporate other so called main characters into the show.

Madeleine
February 2nd, 2009, 01:33 PM
It's up to the writers to try and tell a good story while utilising most of their cast

Oddly, "number of people on the payroll but not onscreen" doesn't often feature in TV reviews. Quality of story does.

I liked Vegas, I'm sorry you didn't. I liked it better for the absence of two characters whose presence would have been contrived and silly. I don't see how the temporary absence of one or more characters from an episode presents a problem. In my life, 'regular' characters who I see most weeks often take a week off from being in my life, as do I from theirs; it's normal ;)

Southern Red
February 2nd, 2009, 05:22 PM
Oddly, "number of people on the payroll but not onscreen" doesn't often feature in TV reviews. Quality of story does.

I liked Vegas, I'm sorry you didn't. I liked it better for the absence of two characters whose presence would have been contrived and silly. I don't see how the temporary absence of one or more characters from an episode presents a problem. In my life, 'regular' characters who I see most weeks often take a week off from being in my life, as do I from theirs; it's normal ;)

Very well said. A lot of people loved Vegas. It was a refreshing change from the old formula. And I'm sure the actors appreciated having something new to do. In fact according to what Rob Cooper said on JM's blog, Joe Flanigan had a lot of input into the way Sheppard was portrayed. I don't think he would feel his character was badly done but perhaps was what our Sheppard could have become without his "family" on Atlantis.

Perhaps Vegas was not for everyone, but I agree with you that it's the quality of the story that matters. And Vegas to me was the best quality I've seen out of this group since S1.

Cautious Explorer
February 2nd, 2009, 05:27 PM
Oddly, "number of people on the payroll but not onscreen" doesn't often feature in TV reviews. Quality of story does.

I liked Vegas, I'm sorry you didn't. I liked it better for the absence of two characters whose presence would have been contrived and silly. I don't see how the temporary absence of one or more characters from an episode presents a problem. In my life, 'regular' characters who I see most weeks often take a week off from being in my life, as do I from theirs; it's normal ;)

Why are you so certain that the presence of either Teyla or Ronon would be contrived and silly? You didn't miss them in the episode, but I don't know why it necessarily means that their presence would be absurd. I guess I just don't understand the certainty that it's absolutely reasonable for the unnamed Wraith to find Earth, for Todd to end up on Earth, for Walter, Woolsey, McKay, Zelenka and even Keller, to all be working together on an AU Earth, but somehow it would be just too incredible for an Athosian or Satedan to be there. I'd agree with you if they were implying Atlantas had never been discovered, or never reconnected to Earth, but that's not the case.

For me, I guess part of my disappointment (in an otherwise great episode) was the predictablity of Sheppard once again spending the largest part of the episode interacting with ....wait for it.... I know you'll be astounded because it hasn't been done to death yet.......Rodney McKay. Sorry to rant, but I'm so tired of the same old formula. John places himself in danger, Rodney is arrogant and spouts exposition, and Teyla and Ronon disappear. There were a lot of good points to this episode, but creative writing sure wasn't one of them. (IMO).

EvenstarSRV
February 2nd, 2009, 06:27 PM
For me, I guess part of my disappointment (in an otherwise great episode) was the predictablity of Sheppard once again spending the largest part of the episode interacting with ....wait for it.... I know you'll be astounded because it hasn't been done to death yet.......Rodney McKay. Sorry to rant, but I'm so tired of the same old formula. John places himself in danger, Rodney is arrogant and spouts exposition, and Teyla and Ronon disappear. There were a lot of good points to this episode, but creative writing sure wasn't one of them. (IMO).

I agree. There's no doubt that visually and musically this episode was very unique for Stargate. I can't say original because it was essentially copying CSI's style, but it was a very different look for SGA that Cooper pulled off nicely.

But from a plot perspective, it was essentially Sheppard heroically saving the day with an informational assist from McKay, a very common resolution to many of SGA's episodes, and not what I would consider a change from Atlantis's usual formula.

I'm also struggling to see how it would be contrived to include two Wraith experts in a story that revolved around a hunt for a rogue Wraith. Wouldn't they be more qualified for the job than a wash-up detective who's never even heard of the Wraith before?

Anuna
February 3rd, 2009, 07:46 AM
It didnt have to be pointless... it's up to the writers to come up with a plausible believable scenario for them to be in the ep... the very same way they came up with a plauible believable way for Rodney to be in the ep... but the ptb seem to lack imagination when it comes to Ronon and Teyla.

They managed to put Todd in the episode so how was that believable... how did Todd get to earth... we assume the other younger wraith just crash landed there, but how did Todd end up on earth... and why Todd.. if Sheppard wasn't involved in the Stargate programme then he never met Koyla and therefore never met Todd..

RCC said in his Q & A that anyone could have woken up the wraith.. so if he's willing to change things so much and that Sheppard wasn't the one to wake the Wraith, then why is it such a big stretch that whoever did wake them or whoever was the leader of the expedition couldnt have made an alliance with the Athosians and therefore met Teyla.. ..

Anything is possible and it was up to the writers to come up with a creative way to put them in the episode and its sad that they couldn't think of anything...but unfortunately this has been the trend throughout the season... Inquistion being another prime example..

Just like you said, anything is possible. maybe in this universe Teyla and Ronon didn't join Atlantis at all? Anything is possible in AU's, that's why they're so much fun, we get a glimpse into the characters and how they would turn out had their lives been different. That's precisely what makes "Vegas" such a great episode.

I'm quite surprised you didn't like it, since it was so Sheppard - heavy and extremely well written, I was always under an impression that you like John. Maybe I was wrong. IMO, he finally got an episode where it's completely clear why he is the main character, the lead, and also we saw some brilliant acting by Joe Flanigan. In this single episode, which I consider the best episode of the season, we got to know more about John sheppard than during the last two years. Sadly, his character was neglected, especially during the S5, and I can't help the impression that the cast changes and loss of some regular characters (Elizabeth, for example) resulted in less of meaningful John screen time. I said way back when S4 was starting that changing regular cast would hurt the show, and that's exactly what happened. But it's not only John who suffered, all characters did, including Teyla and Ronon. So there's that too. I don't think the writers got comfortable with these new regulars, or found a meaningful spot for them. They certainly don't fill in for Carson and Elizabeth.

If we look "deeper" into this season, but not only this one, we could argue that male characters got better storylines than female characters, or most female characters. Now you might not believe me, but I do love Teyla. I love when she's written well, and when she does things that matter, but that happens on rare occasion. I wish she had more episodes like "Michael" for example, where she shines. I'd rather have her, and any other character, less on screen, but being portrayed like smart people who do stuff that matters.

Bottom line, "Vegas" is an amazingly written and well acted, well directed story. I don't see anything lacking, I think the Wraith were there for a right reason and we finally got THE Sheppard episode so many people were asking and hoping for. In my opinion, it's a win - win situation.

bluealien
February 6th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Oddly, "number of people on the payroll but not onscreen" doesn't often feature in TV reviews. Quality of story does.
Quality of story is subjective. It doen't only have to feature certain characters to be considered good quality.


I liked Vegas, I'm sorry you didn't. I liked it better for the absence of two characters whose presence would have been contrived and silly. I don't see how the temporary absence of one or more characters from an episode presents a problem. In my life, 'regular' characters who I see most weeks often take a week off from being in my life, as do I from theirs; it's normal ;)


Why would it have been contrived and silly. How did Todd get there. If AU Rodney has been in contact with Atlantis why is it such a stretch to say he came in contact with Teyla or Ronon, or at least one of them. It's no more contrived or silly than having Todd on earth.

But it's not really about whether I liked Vegas or not, it's about the writers only being able to write for certain characters. Its not just about the temporary absence of Teyla and Ronon in Vegas it's about the inability of the writers to include them in half the season, or when they do they are background scenery. As I said they have no problem fitting Rodney into everything but somehow they can't do the same for the others. Why is it so difficult for them to come up with a concept from the beginning that features Ronon and Teyla.


Vegas as it stood worked fine the way they wrote it but you could say that for any ep. They could have written an episode with just Ronon and Teyla and again it could have worked fine, but this is meant to be an ensemble cast which it is clearly not. If there had been a pretty good balance during the season then having no Teyla or Ronon in the second last episode of the season may not have been such a big deal but it was the trend throughout the entire season.

Southern Red
February 6th, 2009, 05:18 AM
Quality of story is subjective. It doen't only have to feature certain characters to be considered good quality.




Why would it have been contrived and silly. How did Todd get there. If AU Rodney has been in contact with Atlantis why is it such a stretch to say he came in contact with Teyla or Ronon, or at least one of them. It's no more contrived or silly than having Todd on earth.

But it's not really about whether I liked Vegas or not, it's about the writers only being able to write for certain characters. Its not just about the temporary absence of Teyla and Ronon in Vegas it's about the inability of the writers to include them in half the season, or when they do they are background scenery. As I said they have no problem fitting Rodney into everything but somehow they can't do the same for the others. Why is it so difficult for them to come up with a concept from the beginning that features Ronon and Teyla.


Vegas as it stood worked fine the way they wrote it but you could say that for any ep. They could have written an episode with just Ronon and Teyla and again it could have worked fine, but this is meant to be an ensemble cast which it is clearly not. If there had been a pretty good balance during the season then having no Teyla or Ronon in the second last episode of the season may not have been such a big deal but it was the trend throughout the entire season.

Ensemble casts by their very definition are not meant to showcase every cast member in every episode. Take Lost for example, do you see all of them in every show? Same for Heroes or even smaller casts like in CSI or Bones. In 44 minutes or so it would be impossible for every character to have a significant role. Or maybe they could write each episode with the idea of giving the same amount of screen time to each. Now that would very quickly get hard to manage.

Teyla and Ronon had significant roles in S&R, The Seed, Broken Ties, and The Daedalus Variations. Teyla was featured heavily in The Queen and Prodigal. Most of the others I don't remember well but I'm sure there were others. It was only toward the end of the season that they weren't given much to do which made it more obvious.

If anyone got overlooked it was Sheppard. I would love to rant all day about that but I understand that in an emsemble cast, everyone is not treated equally every time.

Something tells me that if they had cast Teyla Rachel as the nurse in Vegas or had made it clear that she was John's long lost love, your attitude would be different. My own ship preference makes objectivity difficult sometimes but can't we take an episode for what it is and enjoy it rather than being angry that it wasn't what we wanted?

Malviris
February 6th, 2009, 05:20 AM
Well this episode was alittle different than the rest but i dont know if i would say it was better. Thats just my opinion

Anuna
February 6th, 2009, 09:09 AM
Quality of story is subjective. It doen't only have to feature certain characters to be considered good quality.

Why would it have been contrived and silly. How did Todd get there. If AU Rodney has been in contact with Atlantis why is it such a stretch to say he came in contact with Teyla or Ronon, or at least one of them. It's no more contrived or silly than having Todd on earth.

But it's not really about whether I liked Vegas or not, it's about the writers only being able to write for certain characters. Its not just about the temporary absence of Teyla and Ronon in Vegas it's about the inability of the writers to include them in half the season, or when they do they are background scenery. As I said they have no problem fitting Rodney into everything but somehow they can't do the same for the others. Why is it so difficult for them to come up with a concept from the beginning that features Ronon and Teyla.


Vegas as it stood worked fine the way they wrote it but you could say that for any ep. They could have written an episode with just Ronon and Teyla and again it could have worked fine, but this is meant to be an ensemble cast which it is clearly not. If there had been a pretty good balance during the season then having no Teyla or Ronon in the second last episode of the season may not have been such a big deal but it was the trend throughout the entire season.

In my rather decent experience in watching ensemble shows and in my humble opinion it's the continuity of character development that counts. A good writer treats characters as human beings, not as chess figures (or something even less, because a good chess player can't afford to forget about certain figures - "good" being the operative word here) who are "used" when appropriate. So, I do get the gist of your comment. Through the entire show Teyla has been neglected, badly written, wallpapered and after she lost her original purpose and became a mommy, the writers suddenly didn't know what to do with her. But it's not Teyla who got a bad treatment, it was also Elizabeth, John, Ronon, Carson, Jennifer, Woolsey, Ford.... not that I think they were badly written all the time, I thing the writers couldn't keep the continuity. One moment it seemed they knew where they were headed to, next moment, they "use" any character for something trivial or something downright stupid that makes people roll their eyes.

Writing for large ensembles requires writers who can handle a large number of different virtual personalities. It's not an easy job. There was no balance you have mentioned, but I think "Vegas" is the wrong episode to insist on balance for Teyla or Ronon. "Vegas" was meant for Sheppard, to shape him and show us some things about him we never really got to see.

Also, I don't agree that any ep could be called a good ep. Some where obviously not so good. If this were a "Remnants" tread I'd probably say that ep made me angry because a potentially good story was wasted and the best bit was cut out. I think they should have kept the bit about John losing Elizabeth, because that had obviously changed him so much that he became a person who doesn't go around and cheerfully joke with people like he used to do. I'm simplifying it, but my point is, John became grim and dark and one of the biggest reasons why was never explained. And that is a precise lack of character continuity which in turn leads to imbalance you're complaining about, and if an episode fails to provide that balance, when it's called for, then I'm afraid I can't call it a good ep.

To put it simply, SGA is too episodic and in some regards it feels like we're starting over with every new ep.




<snip>

Something tells me that if they had cast Teyla Rachel as the nurse in Vegas or had made it clear that she was John's long lost love, your attitude would be different. My own ship preference makes objectivity difficult sometimes but can't we take an episode for what it is and enjoy it rather than being angry that it wasn't what we wanted?

I think you just hit the nail on the head. It's difficult to separate from your preferences and I'm not even trying. Why should I apologize for the things I like? I don't see other people doing it. Where "Remnants" failed, "Vegas" succeeded to provide that bit of continuity I wanted to see on screen - in Vegas AU John Sheppard became a dark, sad character because he lost the woman he loved. The parallel is strong and important enough to provide the explanation why John had changed and turned so sad and dark precisely after Adrift and Lifeline (heck even the song at the end, "Solitary man" by Johnny Cash is screaming "I love once in my life and never again" at us), and why every new mentioning of Elizabeth or appearance of her clone or FRAN - Elizabeth brought so much sadness to his face. If anyone missed to notice, I guess they need glasses.

AU's are different but still the same universes where the characters remain the same people faced with different life situations. And even if Vegas AU woman wasn't Elizabeth (and I think she was, which I'm totally entitled to, because it was never said who she was, and that leaves the freedom for interpretation), the fact that John had changed the way he did because he lost a woman he loved is just a too strong hint on how our John felt about our Elizabeth, because the nature of his change in our universe and "Vegas" AU was essentially the same. That, in my opinion, makes Vegas even better, and I'm not surprised why certain people, with certain ship preference don't like it.

maxbo
February 6th, 2009, 09:23 AM
Why are you so certain that the presence of either Teyla or Ronon would be contrived and silly? You didn't miss them in the episode, but I don't know why it necessarily means that their presence would be absurd. I guess I just don't understand the certainty that it's absolutely reasonable for the unnamed Wraith to find Earth, for Todd to end up on Earth, for Walter, Woolsey, McKay, Zelenka and even Keller, to all be working together on an AU Earth, but somehow it would be just too incredible for an Athosian or Satedan to be there. I'd agree with you if they were implying Atlantas had never been discovered, or never reconnected to Earth, but that's not the case.

For me, I guess part of my disappointment (in an otherwise great episode) was the predictablity of Sheppard once again spending the largest part of the episode interacting with ....wait for it.... I know you'll be astounded because it hasn't been done to death yet.......Rodney McKay. Sorry to rant, but I'm so tired of the same old formula. John places himself in danger, Rodney is arrogant and spouts exposition, and Teyla and Ronon disappear. There were a lot of good points to this episode, but creative writing sure wasn't one of them. (IMO).


I agree. There's no doubt that visually and musically this episode was very unique for Stargate. I can't say original because it was essentially copying CSI's style, but it was a very different look for SGA that Cooper pulled off nicely.

But from a plot perspective, it was essentially Sheppard heroically saving the day with an informational assist from McKay, a very common resolution to many of SGA's episodes, and not what I would consider a change from Atlantis's usual formula.

I'm also struggling to see how it would be contrived to include two Wraith experts in a story that revolved around a hunt for a rogue Wraith. Wouldn't they be more qualified for the job than a wash-up detective who's never even heard of the Wraith before?


Quality of story is subjective. It doen't only have to feature certain characters to be considered good quality.

Why would it have been contrived and silly. How did Todd get there. If AU Rodney has been in contact with Atlantis why is it such a stretch to say he came in contact with Teyla or Ronon, or at least one of them. It's no more contrived or silly than having Todd on earth.

But it's not really about whether I liked Vegas or not, it's about the writers only being able to write for certain characters. Its not just about the temporary absence of Teyla and Ronon in Vegas it's about the inability of the writers to include them in half the season, or when they do they are background scenery. As I said they have no problem fitting Rodney into everything but somehow they can't do the same for the others. Why is it so difficult for them to come up with a concept from the beginning that features Ronon and Teyla.

Vegas as it stood worked fine the way they wrote it but you could say that for any ep. They could have written an episode with just Ronon and Teyla and again it could have worked fine, but this is meant to be an ensemble cast which it is clearly not. If there had been a pretty good balance during the season then having no Teyla or Ronon in the second last episode of the season may not have been such a big deal but it was the trend throughout the entire season.

I'm going to echo much of what's already been said because I really don't get why it would be considered "contrived and silly" to include Teyla and Ronon in an episode that was already filled with elements that could be perceived as "contrived and silly". How is it not contrived and silly that so many members of our Atlantis would come into contact with each other in this AU episode, yet it's considered contrived and silly for Teyla and Ronon to be included?

If AU Sheppard, a burned out detective with no connection to the Stargate program, Woolsey, an FBI agent, Todd, a Wraith we met through Sheppard in our timeline, Zelenka, Walter (Walter?), and Keller (of all people) could be imagined as meeting in this episode, then if Robert Cooper had wanted to include Teyla and Ronon they would have fit in just as those other improbable events did.

After all, I already had to suspend my disbelief throughout this episode so it certainly wouldn't have been out of place to have seen Teyla and Ronon as included as Wraith experts working with AU Sheppard to stop that rogue Wraith. Unfortunately, the writer for this episode didn't want to write for them. It's just that simple, unfortunately.

In addition, other than the CSI format, Vegas featured the same old, tired storyline elements that I had seen too often during SGA's run - it was yet another episode where Sheppard interacted with Rodney more than he did with any other character. It would have been a refreshing change if Zelenka had been given the larger Rodney role and Rodney had been given the smaller Zelenka role. But, that would have required thinking a bit outside of the box - not a strong suit of these writers.


Ensemble casts by their very definition are not meant to showcase every cast member in every episode. Take Lost for example, do you see all of them in every show? Same for Heroes or even smaller casts like in CSI or Bones. In 44 minutes or so it would be impossible for every character to have a significant role. Or maybe they could write each episode with the idea of giving the same amount of screen time to each. Now that would very quickly get hard to manage.

Teyla and Ronon had significant roles in S&R, The Seed, Broken Ties, and The Daedalus Variations. Teyla was featured heavily in The Queen and Prodigal. Most of the others I don't remember well but I'm sure there were others. It was only toward the end of the season that they weren't given much to do which made it more obvious.

If anyone got overlooked it was Sheppard. I would love to rant all day about that but I understand that in an emsemble cast, everyone is not treated equally every time.

Something tells me that if they had cast Teyla Rachel as the nurse in Vegas or had made it clear that she was John's long lost love, your attitude would be different. My own ship preference makes objectivity difficult sometimes but can't we take an episode for what it is and enjoy it rather than being angry that it wasn't what we wanted?

Yes, it's true that shows that feature ensemble casts don't have to include every character in every episode and some of my favorite series, like Highlander and Babylon 5, followed that format. My problem with SGA is that it was always the same 2 characters that weren't included in every episode - Teyla and Ronon. So, when the second to the last episode of the season, and the only episode that specifically set up the season finale, doesn't include them, then that's a strike against that episode for me.

The fact that poor Sheppard has been neglected for much of this season is the only reason why I don't hate this episode. Unfortunately, I enjoyed Vegas because of Joe Flanigan and not because I consider it a Sheppard episode or even a good SGA episode.

I'm confused by your reference to ship because what does ship preference have to do with liking or not liking this episode? From most of the reviews I've seen of this episode, it's widely understood that Vegas is a love it or hate it type of episode because it's so different from the usual SGA episode.

Anuna
February 6th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Yes, it's true that shows that feature ensemble casts don't have to include every character in every episode and some of my favorite series, like Highlander and Babylon 5, followed that format. My problem with SGA is that it was always the same 2 characters that weren't included in every episode - Teyla and Ronon. So, when the second to the last episode of the season, and the only episode that specifically set up the season finale, doesn't include them, then that's a strike against that episode for me.

The fact that poor Sheppard has been neglected for much of this season is the only reason why I don't hate this episode. Unfortunately, I enjoyed Vegas because of Joe Flanigan and not because I consider it a Sheppard episode or even a good SGA episode.

I'm confused by your reference to ship because what does ship preference have to do with liking or not liking this episode? From most of the reviews I've seen of this episode, it's widely understood that Vegas is a love it or hate it type of episode because it's so different from the usual SGA episode.

I think this is the wrong episode to look for Teyla or Ronon balance. I wish they were included more in other episodes of this season, where they could have contributed more than some characters who were put into spotlight too often. "The Shrine" is a good example, and I guess we can point to complete show and say Teyla and Ronon have been neglected. I feel their presence missing in episodes like "The Shrine" where I would love to see more of their interaction with their terminally sick friend, and watch less of Jennifer Keller. However, I don't feel anything lacking in "Vegas" and I think "Vegas" works just fine without Teyla and Ronon. IMO, of course.

I guess it's a matter of taste what we find good or enjoyable, but from the point of storytelling, direction and characterization, "Vegas" was great both for Sheppard and Joe Flanigan.

About ship preference - some female characters - one in particular - fit into "field medic" spot easily, thanx to the simple fact that they come from Earth, rather than Pegasus Galaxy; and we know from SGA canon they had a rather profound influence on John Sheppard and how he changed after first two episodes of S4.

Or to put it simply, many people believe the field medic mentioned in "Vegas" was Elizabeth Weir.

Madeleine
February 6th, 2009, 10:03 AM
Why are you so certain that the presence of either Teyla or Ronon would be contrived and silly? You didn't miss them in the episode, but I don't know why it necessarily means that their presence would be absurd.

It would feel like a tick-box excercise; like a case of "these two actors are on the payroll, we HAVE to find them a role"

Worse, it would be rather sad to see them on Earth instead of in Pegasus: they both have such vital personal missions in Pegasus that if they were on Earth, by comparison they'd be doing something a bit pointless (for them) and they'd be lesser than we know them to be. It was sad that Alt-Shep was a sad-act version of the real Shep, but it was kind of the point. If Ronon and Teyla had been pale imitations also, it would have been sad but with no actual point.

Madeleine
February 6th, 2009, 10:09 AM
How did Todd get there.

I'm not good at telling human faces apart: I have been known to fail to recognise my own sisters when I meet them off the train after not having seen them for a whole couple of weeks' :o

I don't think I'll ever learn to tell Wraith apart. Todd was in Vegas? News to me :o:o

(Was he the one in the disguise or the one in the glass box?)

Southern Red
February 6th, 2009, 10:14 AM
I'm going to echo much of what's already been said because I really don't get why it would be considered "contrived and silly" to include Teyla and Ronon in an episode that was already filled with elements that could be perceived as "contrived and silly". How is it not contrived and silly that so many members of our Atlantis would come into contact with each other in this AU episode, yet it's considered contrived and silly for Teyla and Ronon to be included?

If AU Sheppard, a burned out detective with no connection to the Stargate program, Woolsey, an FBI agent, Todd, a Wraith we met through Sheppard in our timeline, Zelenka, Walter (Walter?), and Keller (of all people) could be imagined as meeting in this episode, then if Robert Cooper had wanted to include Teyla and Ronon they would have fit in just as those other improbable events did.

After all, I already had to suspend my disbelief throughout this episode so it certainly wouldn't have been out of place to have seen Teyla and Ronon as included as Wraith experts working with AU Sheppard to stop that rogue Wraith. Unfortunately, the writer for this episode didn't want to write for them. It's just that simple, unfortunately.

In addition, other than the CSI format, Vegas featured the same old, tired storyline elements that I had seen too often during SGA's run - it was yet another episode where Sheppard interacted with Rodney more than he did with any other character. It would have been a refreshing change if Zelenka had been given the larger Rodney role and Rodney had been given the smaller Zelenka role. But, that would have required thinking a bit outside of the box - not a strong suit of these writers.



Yes, it's true that shows that feature ensemble casts don't have to include every character in every episode and some of my favorite series, like Highlander and Babylon 5, followed that format. My problem with SGA is that it was always the same 2 characters that weren't included in every episode - Teyla and Ronon. So, when the second to the last episode of the season, and the only episode that specifically set up the season finale, doesn't include them, then that's a strike against that episode for me.

The fact that poor Sheppard has been neglected for much of this season is the only reason why I don't hate this episode. Unfortunately, I enjoyed Vegas because of Joe Flanigan and not because I consider it a Sheppard episode or even a good SGA episode.

I'm confused by your reference to ship because what does ship preference have to do with liking or not liking this episode? From most of the reviews I've seen of this episode, it's widely understood that Vegas is a love it or hate it type of episode because it's so different from the usual SGA episode.

That part in bold is absolutely right. Robert Cooper chose not to include them. That was his choice. I don't understand why some viewers are still attacking him for it. M&M chose to feature Sheppard and Beckett in Whispers. AM gave us a lot of Teyla and Todd in The Queen. I don't see them being criticized for that. Why is Vegas getting this particular attention in regards to Teyla and Ronon? Because they are "always" sidelined? As I stated earlier they had substantial parts in several eps at the beginning of S5. And if you are a particular fan of either of them, I can see why you are disappointed. What I don't understand is the continuous dwelling on it. RCC made a decision. Why can't we accept it and move on? John and Rodney are the main two characters. Everything revolves around them. Like it or not, that's just the way it was.

My ship reference was intended for the poster I quoted. But I think she's ignoring me. LOL I have a ship preference and it influences how I view a lot of SGA. I think some other shippers may have been hoping for more interaction between their two favorite characters and it colors their perception of Vegas. That is me making a totally personal judgment. If it's not true, I take it back. ;)

Madeleine
February 6th, 2009, 10:20 AM
How is it not contrived and silly that so many members of our Atlantis would come into contact with each other in this AU episode, yet it's considered contrived and silly for Teyla and Ronon to be included?

Who says it wasn't contrived and silly that Keller, Woolsey, Zelenka, Walter and McKay (and apparently Todd) could all just happen to cross paths in the alt-universe? It was very contrived! The ep would have been rather better for losing Walter, Keller, and either of Zelenka or Woolsey ;)

And I think I'm very lucky not to have recognised Todd: I, unlike the rest of you poor souls, get to believe that those were just random wraith, and I get a better ep as a result :D

LoneStar1836
February 6th, 2009, 10:28 AM
I'm not good at telling human faces apart: I have been known to fail to recognise my own sisters when I meet them off the train after not having seen them for a whole couple of weeks' :o

I don't think I'll ever learn to tell Wraith apart. Todd was in Vegas? News to me :o:o

(Was he the one in the disguise or the one in the glass box?)He was the one in the box that McKay took Sheppard to see.


And I had no problem with tptb choosing a Wraith we knew. Sure I wondered how he got there, but like for Sheppard, events in this reality evidently played out differently for Todd as well.

Southern Red
February 6th, 2009, 10:33 AM
Who says it wasn't contrived and silly that Keller, Woolsey, Zelenka, Walter and McKay (and apparently Todd) could all just happen to cross paths in the alt-universe? It was very contrived! The ep would have been rather better for losing Walter, Keller, and either of Zelenka or Woolsey ;)

And I think I'm very lucky not to have recognised Todd: I, unlike the rest of you poor souls, get to believe that those were just random wraith, and I get a better ep as a result :D

You have a great point. I never thought that it could be anybody but Todd. But you're right. They didn't tell us it was the same wraith. It might have been Ted. And without John there to do the Wraith naming, it might have been Zerflorg for all we know. I love AU's.

Also who's to say Zelenka wouldn't be the head scientist. It is indeed very hard to think outside the box. We are programmed when we see certain faces to expect certain things. I think that's even more of a great reason for not including Ronon and Teyla in some odd role. I understand Jason wanted to play the Wraith and that would have been fun to see. But it also would have been extremely distracting. Having Keller as the coroner was bad enough.

Madeleine
February 6th, 2009, 10:48 AM
I understand Jason wanted to play the Wraith and that would have been fun to see.

Oh boy yes! If the make-up artist could have disguised him well enough, and his appearance as a wraith had been kept out of the spoilers, I'd have got a heck of a kick seeing "Wraith... Jason Momoa" on the end credits :D

Anuna
February 6th, 2009, 10:57 AM
Lol, that was Todd? The Wraith poet, I mean? How cool! That makes "Vegas" even better!

Hehe, I'm bad at recognizing the Wraith too. :D

Southern Red
February 6th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Oh boy yes! If the make-up artist could have disguised him well enough, and his appearance as a wraith had been kept out of the spoilers, I'd have got a heck of a kick seeing "Wraith... Jason Momoa" on the end credits :D

And he wanted to go to Vegas so bad. Poor baby. That would have just been fun to see. And a lot of people would have been wondering if the Wraith didn't look familiar. LOL. Too funny.


Lol, that was Todd? The Wraith poet, I mean? How cool! That makes "Vegas" even better!

Hehe, I'm bad at recognizing the Wraith too. :D

You see I am such a conventional thinker, I never thought for a moment that it wasn't Todd. It looked like Todd. It talked like Todd. It even said "Jooohhhnnn Sheeeepppaaaarrddd" like Todd. Oh man, I so love AU's.

Yet Ted Todd had a definite purpose in the episode. He wasn't shoehorned in or added just to give Chris H a role. It gave Detective Sheppard a look at what the Wraith really were and made the connection with how the gambling Wraith had gotten inside his head and made him throw away his full house. I just loved the little puzzled look JF did when that happened. Like it just hit him that he could have won and he was wondering why in the world he just did what he did. Great acting choice.

Anuna
February 6th, 2009, 11:40 AM
And he wanted to go to Vegas so bad. Poor baby. That would have just been fun to see. And a lot of people would have been wondering if the Wraith didn't look familiar. LOL. Too funny.


You see I am such a conventional thinker, I never thought for a moment that it wasn't Todd. It looked like Todd. It talked like Todd. It even said "Jooohhhnnn Sheeeepppaaaarrddd" like Todd. Oh man, I so love AU's.

Yet Ted Todd had a definite purpose in the episode. He wasn't shoehorned in or added just to give Chris H a role. It gave Detective Sheppard a look at what the Wraith really were and made the connection with how the gambling Wraith had gotten inside his head and made him throw away his full house. I just loved the little puzzled look JF did when that happened. Like it just hit him that he could have won and he was wondering why in the world he just did what he did. Great acting choice.

Oh poor Jason! It would have been so cool to see him playing a Wraith!

But the two we did see, Todd and the gambling Wraith were superb. Both the card playing scene and poetry scene give me the chills - scene with AU!Todd in particular. I wonder if Todd messed with John's mind and made him remeber certain things of his past?

Cautious Explorer
February 6th, 2009, 11:41 AM
In addition, other than the CSI format, Vegas featured the same old, tired storyline elements that I had seen too often during SGA's run - it was yet another episode where Sheppard interacted with Rodney more than he did with any other character. It would have been a refreshing change if Zelenka had been given the larger Rodney role and Rodney had been given the smaller Zelenka role. But, that would have required thinking a bit outside of the box - not a strong suit of these writers.

The fact that poor Sheppard has been neglected for much of this season is the only reason why I don't hate this episode. Unfortunately, I enjoyed Vegas because of Joe Flanigan and not because I consider it a Sheppard episode or even a good SGA episode.


Great post Maxbo.

It seems like poor Sheppard either gets ignored completely or has to be paired up with McKay. But then, the world revolves around McKay. :rolleyes: I would have loved to have seen more about AU Sheppard's life in Vegas, or let him try to figure out what was going on with the Wraith on his own, or as you suggested, at least let Zelenka be the one to introduce him to the SG program. Instead it was mostly AU Shep meets AU McKay, and neither was all that different from their normal self. It's an AU. Why not try something truly unique.

JF was by far the best thing about this episode.


It would feel like a tick-box excercise; like a case of "these two actors are on the payroll, we HAVE to find them a role"

Worse, it would be rather sad to see them on Earth instead of in Pegasus: they both have such vital personal missions in Pegasus that if they were on Earth, by comparison they'd be doing something a bit pointless (for them) and they'd be lesser than we know them to be. It was sad that Alt-Shep was a sad-act version of the real Shep, but it was kind of the point. If Ronon and Teyla had been pale imitations also, it would have been sad but with no actual point.

I could see your point if Teyla and Ronon were permanently moved to Earth, but a visit to help their allies accomplish a particular mission? I don't see how that would lessen them in any way. They help out the expedition all the time in Pegasus. What difference does it make if they fight Wraith in Pegasus or help hunt down a particular Wraith on Earth?



Who says it wasn't contrived and silly that Keller, Woolsey, Zelenka, Walter and McKay (and apparently Todd) could all just happen to cross paths in the alt-universe? It was very contrived! The ep would have been rather better for losing Walter, Keller, and either of Zelenka or Woolsey ;)

And I think I'm very lucky not to have recognised Todd: I, unlike the rest of you poor souls, get to believe that those were just random wraith, and I get a better ep as a result :D

Now here we can agree. :)

maxbo
February 6th, 2009, 12:09 PM
That part in bold is absolutely right. Robert Cooper chose not to include them. That was his choice. I don't understand why some viewers are still attacking him for it. M&M chose to feature Sheppard and Beckett in Whispers. AM gave us a lot of Teyla and Todd in The Queen. I don't see them being criticized for that. Why is Vegas getting this particular attention in regards to Teyla and Ronon? Because they are "always" sidelined? As I stated earlier they had substantial parts in several eps at the beginning of S5. And if you are a particular fan of either of them, I can see why you are disappointed. What I don't understand is the continuous dwelling on it. RCC made a decision. Why can't we accept it and move on? John and Rodney are the main two characters. Everything revolves around them. Like it or not, that's just the way it was.

I'll admit that I'm one of those viewers "attacking" Cooper for the exclusion of Teyla and Ronon and I've done so primarily because of the placement of Vegas (#19 of 20 episodes) and its significance to the finale. Sadly, because Teyla and Ronon have either been excluded or wall-papered for so many episodes, if Vegas had aired earlier in the season, I wouldn't have had as much of an issue with it.

Yes, Rodney and Sheppard (somewhat) are the 2 main characters and revolving much of SGA around them in S2-3 and Rodney in S4-5 is the source of many of the problems I have with the writing for SGA. By their own admission, the writers ran out of ideas because they refused to expand their attention beyond Rodney and, IMO, every character suffered for this, including Rodney.


My ship reference was intended for the poster I quoted. But I think she's ignoring me. LOL I have a ship preference and it influences how I view a lot of SGA. I think some other shippers may have been hoping for more interaction between their two favorite characters and it colors their perception of Vegas. That is me making a totally personal judgment. If it's not true, I take it back. ;)

Based on what I've seen, some John/Teyla shippers like/love this episode and some hate it and I've seen the same with John/Elizabeth shippers so not every shipper views this episode based on ship.

This episode was so out of the norm that I don't believe ship preferences come into play for most reviewers. For instance, I'm not a shipper and depending on what day it is, I either like/love this episode or I hate it. And, when I love it, it's because I love that Joe Flanigan got a chance to shine after so much neglect and not because I see it as a good SGA episode.



Who says it wasn't contrived and silly that Keller, Woolsey, Zelenka, Walter and McKay (and apparently Todd) could all just happen to cross paths in the alt-universe? It was very contrived! The ep would have been rather better for losing Walter, Keller, and either of Zelenka or Woolsey ;)

And I think I'm very lucky not to have recognised Todd: I, unlike the rest of you poor souls, get to believe that those were just random wraith, and I get a better ep as a result :D

I agree that this episode would have been better without Walter, Keller and Woolsey, however, I wish Radek had been given the meaty Rodney role and that Rodney had been in the background for a change.

I envy your not recognizing Todd because as much as I love him, his inclusion required the most suspension of disbelief for me because, without our Sheppard, I couldn't figure out how it would be plausible for him to be in this AU episode.

Infinite-Possibilities
February 6th, 2009, 08:43 PM
For once i felt Teyla and Ronon were fine not to be included in the episode, I still had a problem with them not being much included in the many earlier ones however.

EvenstarSRV
February 7th, 2009, 10:23 AM
Worse, it would be rather sad to see them on Earth instead of in Pegasus: they both have such vital personal missions in Pegasus that if they were on Earth, by comparison they'd be doing something a bit pointless (for them) and they'd be lesser than we know them to be. It was sad that Alt-Shep was a sad-act version of the real Shep, but it was kind of the point. If Ronon and Teyla had been pale imitations also, it would have been sad but with no actual point.

This is an argument I'm still struggling to understand because I don't see how having Teyla and Ronon being involved in a search for a Wraith (on whatever planet or galaxy) would be pointless for their characters. They've dealt with the Wraith all of their life, so how would having them deal with a Wraith on Earth make them lesser than their normal characters?

McKay came back to Earth from his vital missions/responsibilities in the Pegasus galaxy because his skills and expertise were supposedly needed in the hunt for the Wraith. Though apparently the extent of his usefulness was to give a washed-up detective an info-dump all about the Wraith and let him loose.



Oh poor Jason! It would have been so cool to see him playing a Wraith!


I agree, it would have been very cool to see 'Ronon' as a Wraith, especially since it would have been a 180 degree switch from his normal character.

Infinite-Possibilities
February 7th, 2009, 06:28 PM
I never made any sort of connection like that about Todd. It's a smart think to take notice of, but what exactly was the significance of it. i thought Sheppard already knew that the gamblign Wraith was a Wraith in disguise by the end? Seeing as he was already talking with the Atlantis team in that reality. So he would have already been briefed on him I imagined.

Madeleine
February 9th, 2009, 01:17 AM
This is an argument I'm still struggling to understand because I don't see how having Teyla and Ronon being involved in a search for a Wraith (on whatever planet or galaxy) would be pointless for their characters. They've dealt with the Wraith all of their life, so how would having them deal with a Wraith on Earth make them lesser than their normal characters?

There are thousands or millions of Wraith, heavilly armed and very dangerous, in Pegasus. Taking two of the best and most useful soliers of Pegasus and having them chasing one lone wraith that got to Earth would be a bit like taking a busy doctor out of a busy hospital to treat a grazed knee in a playground twenty miles away.

rmonroe
February 9th, 2009, 01:24 AM
Hey, anyone notice Rodney is wearing a wedding ring? You can see it when he's on the phone with Sheppard near the end of the ep. Kinda fun.

Cautious Explorer
February 9th, 2009, 02:50 AM
There are thousands or millions of Wraith, heavilly armed and very dangerous, in Pegasus. Taking two of the best and most useful soliers of Pegasus and having them chasing one lone wraith that got to Earth would be a bit like taking a busy doctor out of a busy hospital to treat a grazed knee in a playground twenty miles away.

Doesn't that kind of hold true for McKay as well? Don't forget Zelenka's also along for the ride. It hardly makes sense to drag the two top scientists back from Atlantis to deal with one rogue Wraith on Earth? After all, as someone already pointed out previously, all those top scientists did was give a lone detective a briefing on Atlantis and the Wraith and set him loose.

In our Atlantis, Ronon and Teyla have rarely, if ever, set out on their own Wraith hunting missions separate from their team. I'm not sure why that would suddenly become something that would be happening in the AU Atlantis. In our Atlantis Ronon and Teyla are part of a team and go on all the team's missions, not just those that involve the Wraith, or involve enough Wraith to make it worth their efforts.

I didn't watch enough SG-1 to know, but is that how it worked with Tealc? He only worked as part of his team if it involved his people or his people's enemies?

Madeleine
February 9th, 2009, 05:12 AM
Doesn't that kind of hold true for McKay as well?

No, McKay's a practical and theoretical scientist whose usefulness is changed rather than diminished by taking him off the frontline.

Cautious Explorer
February 9th, 2009, 05:30 AM
No, McKay's a practical and theoretical scientist whose usefulness is changed rather than diminished by taking him off the frontline.

Sorry. I'm not following. Why is McKay's usefulness changed but Ronon and Teyla's would be diminshed?

Madeleine
February 9th, 2009, 08:04 AM
McKay can do groundbreaking research wherever he is. He's worked all over the place, and wherever he is he's doing useful stuff. He doesn't have a particularly personal mission to rid the universe of goauld or of wraith or replicators; he has a personal drive to be the best theoretical physicist in the world and to keep coming up with new ideas and workable theories, and like I said he can do that wherever he is. He has done that wherever he's been.

Ronon's raison d'etre is to wipe out the wraith. It's very personal to him. Even if it was, say, Lorne who came hundreds of light years to wipe out a lone Wraith on Lorne's home turf, I'd think "what a waste of Lorne, taking him from the front line and putting him on what is practically traffic control by comparison." But at least Lorne would be someone who knew the turf. I cannot conceive of an actual reason for Ronon to take weeks out of his own mission to go and hunt a single wraith when he could be fighting dozens a day where it really matters. As for Teyla, she's got even more reason not to leave the big fight on Pegasus: her sprog.

Cautious Explorer
February 9th, 2009, 08:16 AM
McKay can do groundbreaking research wherever he is. He's worked all over the place, and wherever he is he's doing useful stuff. He doesn't have a particularly personal mission to rid the universe of goauld or of wraith or replicators; he has a personal drive to be the best theoretical physicist in the world and to keep coming up with new ideas and workable theories, and like I said he can do that wherever he is. He has done that wherever he's been.

Ronon's raison d'etre is to wipe out the wraith. It's very personal to him. Even if it was, say, Lorne who came hundreds of light years to wipe out a lone Wraith on Lorne's home turf, I'd think "what a waste of Lorne, taking him from the front line and putting him on what is practically traffic control by comparison." But at least Lorne would be someone who knew the turf. I cannot conceive of an actual reason for Ronon to take weeks out of his own mission to go and hunt a single wraith when he could be fighting dozens a day where it really matters. As for Teyla, she's got even more reason not to leave the big fight on Pegasus: her sprog.

I guess we're looking at this completely differently. I see Vegas as just one among many missions that AU Ronon and Teyla may or may not be involved with. You seem to be looking at it as if Ronon and Teyla would be coming with a one-way ticket to Earth.

There's no reason to think that just because he's staying behind on Atlantis that Ronon leaves the city each morning to go off a dozen Wraith or so. And by your logic, I'm thinking you feel like Teyla shouldn't go on any but the most simplistic and safest of missions now that she has a child.

I'm not seeing how Vegas is any different from the many missions that the team has gone on together over the years in our Atlantis.

I am curious, and you didn't answer my question before about Teal'c. Did you think it was not his place to go everywhere with his team? Did it diminish him to be involved with anything other than a direct threat to his people? I don't watch SG-1 so I don't honestly know if it was a standard thing to leave Teal'c behind. The few episodes I've seen seemed to include him as a full part of the team the same as his Earth counterparts.

Lythisrose
February 9th, 2009, 08:39 AM
I am a huge fan of The Team and love Ronon and Teyla to pieces. And if they were to give those two every second of the screen time that Keller and McKeller took this season, and some of Rodney's time too (although I love him), I'd have been estatic beyond belief.
But I am so beyond thrilled that John finally got to shine in this beatiful, brilliant episode that I will not begrudge the way the story was told, and just enjoy it for the incredible episode it was.
All IMHO of course! :)

Madeleine
February 9th, 2009, 08:56 AM
I guess we're looking at this completely differently. I see Vegas as just one among many missions that AU Ronon and Teyla may or may not be involved with. You seem to be looking at it as if Ronon and Teyla would be coming with a one-way ticket to Earth.



No, just a ticket to Earth on a trip that would take weeeeeeks of unproductive time.


And by your logic, I'm thinking you feel like Teyla shouldn't go on any but the most simplistic and safest of missions now that she has a child.
Not at all. Just not any that are a bit pointless, in terms of faffing around for weeeeks on a spaceship instead of doing productive stuff.


I'm not seeing how Vegas is any different from the many missions that the team has gone on together over the years in our Atlantis.

It would take weeks to get there and by the time they got there there'd be every chance that the lone wraith in question would already have been neutralised. A bit pointless, that'd be.


... about Teal'c. Did you think it was not his place to go everywhere with his team?

Teal'c had a mission, like Telya and Ronon. He took his three companions pretty much everywhere on his mission, and they helped him rid the galaxy of the goa'uld. I'm not sure of the relevance of Teal'c in the Vegas scenario. He never went swanning off to another galaxy for a few weeks and left the fight against the goa'uld to the rest of the gang. I don't think that would have been his style, any more than it would be ronon's or teyla's.

CazzBlade
February 9th, 2009, 09:19 AM
I know this convo has kinda moved on but I've only just read it :P I find it quite obsurd that people are insinuating that John/Teyla shippers didn't like this episode because Teyla wasn't in it and it suggested a relationship between Sheppard and Weir, yes quite a lot of JT shippers didn't like this episode and sure, Teyla not being in it is a big reason. I loved Vegas, however, that doesn't mean I wasn't knarked at not having Teyla and Ronon in the episode, they have been majorly ignored this season. As has John, so as a Sheppard fan first and foremost, I was delighted he actually got an episode, I would still have preferred our Sheppard to have had an ep though. In the Sheppard whump thread (a thread full of purely Sheppard fans) there were a few that didn't like Vegas, nothing to do with being a Teyla fan or a JT shipper, and one thing that everyone agreed on in that thread was that Weir was not the medic (and this comes from someone who at first though the idea was cute but on further discussion realised just how it wouldn't have worked).

Cautious Explorer
February 9th, 2009, 09:49 AM
No, just a ticket to Earth on a trip that would take weeeeeeks of unproductive time.


Not at all. Just not any that are a bit pointless, in terms of faffing around for weeeeks on a spaceship instead of doing productive stuff.



It would take weeks to get there and by the time they got there there'd be every chance that the lone wraith in question would already have been neutralised. A bit pointless, that'd be.

Well, now you've got me convinced it was a complete waste of everyone's time. Does the great Rodney McKay have time to spend weeeeeeks on a ship being unproductive when he could be defending Atlantis? I should think not. He didn't even leave Zelenka behind to cover for him. Why couldn't this lone Wraith be handled by the SGC? Are they all incompetent? No scientists left on Earth? No communications between Earth and the SGC? What a complete screw up that was. I wonder what fool was heading the SGC and made the boneheaded decision to call all the top scientists back from Atlantis to handle one single Wraith on Earth?
I wasn't looking at it that way before.



Teal'c had a mission, like Telya and Ronon. He took his three companions pretty much everywhere on his mission, and they helped him rid the galaxy of the goa'uld. I'm not sure of the relevance of Teal'c in the Vegas scenario. He never went swanning off to another galaxy for a few weeks and left the fight against the goa'uld to the rest of the gang. I don't think that would have been his style, any more than it would be ronon's or teyla's.

That hardly applies, does it? Did SG-1 even have the option of travelling to other galaxies before Atlantis was discovered? So, I take it all was at peace and no problems at all in the world of Teal'c's people when he "swanned" off to Atlantis on that important mission to teach Ronon how to handle the IOA. ;)


I know this convo has kinda moved on but I've only just read it :P I find it quite obsurd that people are insinuating that John/Teyla shippers didn't like this episode because Teyla wasn't in it and it suggested a relationship between Sheppard and Weir, yes quite a lot of JT shippers didn't like this episode and sure, Teyla not being in it is a big reason. I loved Vegas, however, that doesn't mean I wasn't knarked at not having Teyla and Ronon in the episode, they have been majorly ignored this season. As has John, so as a Sheppard fan first and foremost, I was delighted he actually got an episode, I would still have preferred our Sheppard to have had an ep though. In the Sheppard whump thread (a thread full of purely Sheppard fans) there were a few that didn't like Vegas, nothing to do with being a Teyla fan or a JT shipper, and one thing that everyone agreed on in that thread was that Weir was not the medic (and this comes from someone who at first though the idea was cute but on further discussion realised just how it wouldn't have worked).

Thank you. Well said.

maxbo
February 9th, 2009, 10:01 AM
McKay can do groundbreaking research wherever he is. He's worked all over the place, and wherever he is he's doing useful stuff. He doesn't have a particularly personal mission to rid the universe of goauld or of wraith or replicators; he has a personal drive to be the best theoretical physicist in the world and to keep coming up with new ideas and workable theories, and like I said he can do that wherever he is. He has done that wherever he's been.

Yes, Rodney can do grounbreaking work anywhere, but so can many of his fellow scientists, so why was he needed on Earth? What did he do on Earth in this episode that couldn't have been done by Zelenka, Carter (or someone like Carter), etc?

Seriously, what did Rodney do in this episode that couldn't have been done by another genuis-level scientist? All I can remember is him telling AU Sheppard about the wraith and having an argument with Zelenka. The actual wraith hunting was done by AU-Sheppard so why was Rodney needed? The only reason I can see is because the writers wanted to include him.


I guess we're looking at this completely differently. I see Vegas as just one among many missions that AU Ronon and Teyla may or may not be involved with. You seem to be looking at it as if Ronon and Teyla would be coming with a one-way ticket to Earth.

There's no reason to think that just because he's staying behind on Atlantis that Ronon leaves the city each morning to go off a dozen Wraith or so. And by your logic, I'm thinking you feel like Teyla shouldn't go on any but the most simplistic and safest of missions now that she has a child.

I'm not seeing how Vegas is any different from the many missions that the team has gone on together over the years in our Atlantis.

I am curious, and you didn't answer my question before about Teal'c. Did you think it was not his place to go everywhere with his team? Did it diminish him to be involved with anything other than a direct threat to his people? I don't watch SG-1 so I don't honestly know if it was a standard thing to leave Teal'c behind. The few episodes I've seen seemed to include him as a full part of the team the same as his Earth counterparts.

Yep, Vegas was just the last in a long, sorry line of episodes where the writers didn't bother to write for Teyla and Ronon. That's what bothers me more than anything - the fact that they were so comfortable writing episodes that didn't include Teyla and Ronon.

As for Teal'c, the writers did a much better job of including him in the Stargate program than they did with Teyla and Ronon. As a result, viewers were used to seeing Teal'c included everywhere, including AU episodes. There was no need for viewers to try to find storyline dictated reasons for Teal'c's exclusion because the writers made sure to always include him. Sadly, the same can't be said for their (the writers) dedication to writing for Teyla and Ronon.


I am a huge fan of The Team and love Ronon and Teyla to pieces. And if they were to give those two every second of the screen time that Keller and McKeller took this season, and some of Rodney's time too (although I love him), I'd have been estatic beyond belief.

But I am so beyond thrilled that John finally got to shine in this beatiful, brilliant episode that I will not begrudge the way the story was told, and just enjoy it for the incredible episode it was.
All IMHO of course! :)

I'm also thrilled that Sheppard finally got his episode this season, I just wish it had been more about him than about him and Rodney. Notice how even in this Sheppard episode, the writers felt the need to add an out of place McKeller scene, yet they didn't feel it was important to write for Teyla and Ronon - again. :(


No, just a ticket to Earth on a trip that would take weeeeeeks of unproductive time.

Not at all. Just not any that are a bit pointless, in terms of faffing around for weeeeks on a spaceship instead of doing productive stuff.

It would take weeks to get there and by the time they got there there'd be every chance that the lone wraith in question would already have been neutralised. A bit pointless, that'd be.

And yet they willing to go down that road the following week. What's the difference? Other than the writers deciding that they had better include Teyla and Ronon in that episode?


Teal'c had a mission, like Telya and Ronon. He took his three companions pretty much everywhere on his mission, and they helped him rid the galaxy of the goa'uld. I'm not sure of the relevance of Teal'c in the Vegas scenario. He never went swanning off to another galaxy for a few weeks and left the fight against the goa'uld to the rest of the gang. I don't think that would have been his style, any more than it would be ronon's or teyla's.

Teal'c not only took his comrades with him on his quest, but his comrades also took him on their quests. He was treated as an invaluable part of the team- period. During the heyday of the original SG-1 team (S1-S8) there was no question of the writers not including him. Teal'c's inclusion came down to the committment of the writers to write scripts that didn't exclude him. If SGA's writers had been as committed, then we wouldn't be having so many "why weren't Teyla and Ronon included?" discussions.

Gategirl95
February 9th, 2009, 10:07 AM
I almost fell asleep when I watched the leaked episode... It's really bad. Only the Sheppard fangirls will "like" it.

I don't really like Sheppard that much (it probably has something to do with his "friendliness" with women) but that episode goes to prove that no matter what reality Shep is an brave and honorable man. i thought "Vegas" was a good episode IMHO

Scary Kitty
February 9th, 2009, 07:35 PM
I know this convo has kinda moved on but I've only just read it :P I find it quite obsurd that people are insinuating that John/Teyla shippers didn't like this episode because Teyla wasn't in it and it suggested a relationship between Sheppard and Weir, yes quite a lot of JT shippers didn't like this episode and sure, Teyla not being in it is a big reason. I loved Vegas, however, that doesn't mean I wasn't knarked at not having Teyla and Ronon in the episode, they have been majorly ignored this season. As has John, so as a Sheppard fan first and foremost, I was delighted he actually got an episode, I would still have preferred our Sheppard to have had an ep though. In the Sheppard whump thread (a thread full of purely Sheppard fans) there were a few that didn't like Vegas, nothing to do with being a Teyla fan or a JT shipper, and one thing that everyone agreed on in that thread was that Weir was not the medic (and this comes from someone who at first though the idea was cute but on further discussion realised just how it wouldn't have worked).

Sorry, but just because the Sheppard whumpers say the medic can't be Weir does not make it gospel truth. They are not the final arbiters of all things Sheppard. Neither are the Sparky shippers, nor the Sheyla shippers.

We're all free to interpret Vegas however we like.

Sparky shippers really enjoyed it because the way that Robert Cooper wrote/directed the episode and Joe Flanigan portrayed Vegas!Sheppard fits in with our personal interpretation of Sheppard in general, and allows us to picture Weir as the medic. If other people don't like that, well... that's their problem. But we're gonna keep on squeeing. ;)

Anuna
February 9th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Sorry, but just because the Sheppard whumpers say the medic can't be Weir does not make it gospel truth. They are not the final arbiters of all things Sheppard. Neither are the Sparky shippers, nor the Sheyla shippers.

We're all free to interpret Vegas however we like.

Sparky shippers really enjoyed it because the way that Robert Cooper wrote/directed the episode and Joe Flanigan portrayed Vegas!Sheppard fits in with our personal interpretation of Sheppard in general, and allows us to picture Weir as the medic. If other people don't like that, well... that's their problem. But we're gonna keep on squeeing. ;)

And let me add, because the medic was never named, it gives us all the freedom to interpret who she was to our heart's content. Saying she was in fact Elizabeth Weir makes a lot of sense to me, and not only to me, because of the very strong parallel between Vegas John and "our" John. Essentially they reacted the same way to a loss of a specific woman. We're free to make that assumption because the Vegas medic was never named, and I don't see anything absurd in that. That's the way we see it. It makes us happy. Period.

What I do find absurd is for some group of people, any group of people, to decide what the ultimate truth about Sheppard is.

Stormtrooper
February 9th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Sorry, but wtf are whumpers?

Reiko
February 9th, 2009, 08:11 PM
Sorry, but wtf are whumpers?

People that like to see a certain character hurt because, errr, they like that character.

Not to be confused with wanting to see, erm, Keller for example hurt because I don't like her.

Stormtrooper
February 9th, 2009, 08:23 PM
People that like to see a certain character hurt because, errr, they like that character.

Not to be confused with wanting to see, erm, Keller for example hurt because I don't like her.

Thanks for the info. I'd better shut up, or I'll get in trouble.

Madeleine
February 10th, 2009, 12:45 AM
Well, now you've got me convinced it was a complete waste of everyone's time. Does the great Rodney McKay have time to spend weeeeeeks on a ship being unproductive when he could be defending Atlantis?

Why would Rodney's weeks on a ship be unproductive? He can model a theorum from any old computer, regardless of its location. He can examine an ancient database as easilly from the chair in his earthbound office or a stool in atlantis or his berth in the Daedalus. I cannot imagine Rodney wasting time as long as he has a functioning laptop :)

And earth is Rodney's home. He's got actual reasons to be there. Ronon hasn't; Teyla hasn't.


what did Rodney do in this episode that couldn't have been done by another genuis-level scientist?

Nothing. It makes little odds out of Rodney, Sam, Jeannie, Zelenka and no odubt others, which of them is in Atlantis leading research and who is in Area51 or the SGC or whatever. No doubt one of those other genuis-level scientists in in charge of Atlantis' labs in that reality.

It makes a heck of a lot of odds where Teyla and Ronon are though. They'd be rather useless on Earth, and they'd hate being useless.


So, I take it all was at peace and no problems at all in the world of Teal'c's people when he "swanned" off to Atlantis on that important mission to teach Ronon how to handle the IOA. ;)

He certainly left that until after the goa'uld were defeated, and the Jaffa free :D

CazzBlade
February 10th, 2009, 04:13 AM
And let me add, because the medic was never named, it gives us all the freedom to interpret who she was to our heart's content. Saying she was in fact Elizabeth Weir makes a lot of sense to me, and not only to me, because of the very strong parallel between Vegas John and "our" John. Essentially they reacted the same way to a loss of a specific woman. We're free to make that assumption because the Vegas medic was never named, and I don't see anything absurd in that. That's the way we see it. It makes us happy. Period.

What I do find absurd is for some group of people, any group of people, to decide what the ultimate truth about Sheppard is.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people without the bias of being a Sparky or a Sheyla do not think it possible that the medic is Weir, which should hold some weight. As I said, I can see why you think that and if its makes you happy then please continue thinking that, but in no way is it canon.

Madeleine
February 10th, 2009, 04:18 AM
I'm lost. Is there any reason that the medic would have been Weir?

Was there a medic in Afghanistan in the 'real' Shep's past?

Southern Red
February 10th, 2009, 04:39 AM
Sorry, but just because the Sheppard whumpers say the medic can't be Weir does not make it gospel truth. They are not the final arbiters of all things Sheppard. Neither are the Sparky shippers, nor the Sheyla shippers.

We're all free to interpret Vegas however we like.

Sparky shippers really enjoyed it because the way that Robert Cooper wrote/directed the episode and Joe Flanigan portrayed Vegas!Sheppard fits in with our personal interpretation of Sheppard in general, and allows us to picture Weir as the medic. If other people don't like that, well... that's their problem. But we're gonna keep on squeeing. ;)

That's the fun of AU's. No messy canon to annoy us. :P


I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people without the bias of being a Sparky or a Sheyla do not think it possible that the medic is Weir, which should hold some weight. As I said, I can see why you think that and if its makes you happy then please continue thinking that, but in no way is it canon.

Have you looked around in that whump thread lately? There is a very high number of Sheyla shippers compared to the Sparky shippers. Nothing wrong with that, but over on the Sparky thread I don't know of anyone who dislikes Vegas. And we love John over there too. And please, what does canon have to do with shipping? :lol:


I'm lost. Is there any reason that the medic would have been Weir?

Was there a medic in Afghanistan in the 'real' Shep's past?

Well, there are always medics but not one that we know the name of. ;) And we Sparky shippers are having fun imagining that the medic might have been Weir because Vegas!Shep makes what we call his "Elizabeth face" when they talk about her. In other words the face he made in Adrift, Lifeline, TMC, GiTM and any other time when she is mentioned after her first accident in FS. It's a Sparky thing and just us having fun and enjoying our ship.

And another fun thing about AU's is that it's not out of the realm of reality that it could have been her. Maybe she grew to admire the military rather than distrust them and wanted to serve her country yet help people at the same time. Voila, medic Weir.

justhere1971
February 10th, 2009, 04:55 AM
That's the fun of AU's. No messy canon to annoy us. :P

Have you looked around in that whump thread lately? There is a very high number of Sheyla shippers compared to the Sparky shippers. Nothing wrong with that, but over on the Sparky thread I don't know of anyone who dislikes Vegas. And we love John over there too. And please, what does canon have to do with shipping? :lol:

Well, there are always medics but not one that we know the name of. ;) And we Sparky shippers are having fun imagining that the medic might have been Weir because Vegas!Shep makes what we call his "Elizabeth face" when they talk about her. In other words the face he made in Adrift, Lifeline, TMC, GiTM and any other time when she is mentioned after her first accident in FS. It's a Sparky thing and just us having fun and enjoying our ship.

And another fun thing about AU's is that it's not out of the realm of reality that it could have been her. Maybe she grew to admire the military rather than distrust them and wanted to serve her country yet help people at the same time. Voila, medic Weir.

Just as Shep turned bitter and even prone to some dishonesty in this AU, why would the thought of Weir choosing a military profession be that far fetched? It's an AU after all.

This is why I love AU, a chance to see the characters we've come to "know" in a different and OOC situations. At the end, the expectation from me is that they fulfill their true potential.

Southern Red
February 10th, 2009, 05:03 AM
Just as Shep turned bitter and even prone to some dishonesty in this AU, why would the thought of Weir choosing a military profession be that far fetched? It's an AU after all.

This is why I love AU, a chance to see the characters we've come to "know" in a different and OOC situations. At the end, the expectation from me is that they fulfill their true potential.

And the medic could have been anyone from Earth. Heck, it could have been Kate Heightmeyer for all we know. That would make one Kate/John shipper I know happy. :P

But the basis of the Sparky squee in addition to his Elizabeth!face *points to sig* was the fact that in both Vegas and in the Pegasus AU John was seen grieving for someone he lost. His demeanor and attitude changed dramatically in both places because IMHO he lost the woman he loved.

But if you think he wasn't affected by Weir's loss, that's your preogative. However, the Sparky shippers are having a lot of fun.

justhere1971
February 10th, 2009, 05:07 AM
And the medic could have been anyone from Earth. Heck, it could have been Kate Heightmeyer for all we know. That would make one Kate/John shipper I know happy. :P

But the basis of the Sparky squee in addition to his Elizabeth!face *points to sig* was the fact that in both Vegas and in the Pegasus AU John was seen grieving for someone he lost. His demeanor and attitude changed dramatically in both places because IMHO he lost the woman he loved.

But if you think he wasn't affected by Weir's loss, that's your preogative. However, the Sparky shippers are having a lot of fun.

That is exactly why I believe it was Weir in this particular AU. Only because of the way he carried himself, and as you put it his face. ;) John Sheppard expresses much more with his facial expressions, than he did with his words. You might say his actions speak louder than words.

Cautious Explorer
February 10th, 2009, 05:25 AM
What I do find absurd is for some group of people, any group of people, to decide what the ultimate truth about Sheppard is.

This is the probably the one and only time we'll agree on anything, but you're right. It is totally ridiculous for any group, shippers or not, to insist their POV is the only correct one.


Why would Rodney's weeks on a ship be unproductive? He can model a theorum from any old computer, regardless of its location. He can examine an ancient database as easilly from the chair in his earthbound office or a stool in atlantis or his berth in the Daedalus. I cannot imagine Rodney wasting time as long as he has a functioning laptop :)

And earth is Rodney's home. He's got actual reasons to be there. Ronon hasn't; Teyla hasn't.

Right. He should stay home in his own galaxy and take care of things there. No point in running off to another galaxy where he doesn't have a personal stake in things. He should stay home with his laptop and save Earth. :D

Hermiiod
February 10th, 2009, 05:34 AM
In the Rising Part 1, when Jack is talking to Sheppard at the Antarctica base, he does mention that there was a time about 3 years ago that Sheppard had disobeyed direct orders to go back and save a team of three people in the middle-east. Now, whether one of those people was a medic or not, this does parallel the Vegas reality quite well. Also, that is the reason that Colonel Sumners did not like Jack at first, because he had disobeyed direct orders in the past.

Madeleine
February 10th, 2009, 07:32 AM
Right. He should stay home in his own galaxy and take care of things there. No point in running off to another galaxy where he doesn't have a personal stake in things. He should stay home with his laptop and save Earth. :D

Rodney will land on his feet wherever he is. Earth? See Jeanie, see Sam, show off to other physicists, act the big cheese in the lab. Atlantis? Examine ancient artefacts before anyone else does, act the big cheese in a different lab. A locked room anywhere at all with a laptop in it? Maths, theorising, and as much self-aggrandising as is possible depending on who else is in there too :D

In Vegas he was doing the same thing as he always does, ever since '48 hours': being 2% more/less brilliant than the best/next best scientist (while acting as if he's 20% more brilliant) and working for the IOA/SGC as directed.

scifan
February 10th, 2009, 07:51 AM
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people without the bias of being a Sparky or a Sheyla do not think it possible that the medic is Weir, which should hold some weight. As I said, I can see why you think that and if its makes you happy then please continue thinking that, but in no way is it canon.

I did't see it that you were attacking anyone and I'm not saying that because we share a common ship either. I've always tried to be fair on both sides and agree to disagree. I saw your post as just pointing out that not all JTer hated the ep. To say that would be untrue. Yes, some may feel that way, but not all.


Of course I was dissappointed with the fact that Teyla wasn't in it, she was missing alot this year, but I was equally upset that Ronon wasn't in it either. Other than that. I enjoyed the ep. I watched with open eyes and took the insert of him being in love with the field medic as to be anyone in general, but if Shweir want to see it as Elizabeth, than that's their opinion and it's also ok for some whumper, JTer or other people to see it not Weir either.
That's why we have our own threads and fanfics. :)

Some things that I didn't like about the ep. Like how Rodney treated Radek. I thought it was worse then what he does normally, but that's my opinion and also I hated that Shep died alone, but everything else was great. I'm into action eps any way. I think RC did a great job.

I personally could say that it was an AU Teyla that was the medic and was crossed over from the PG at an earlier point in time ;),but I wouldn't get upset if a whole flock of people says it's rubbish. It's a fantasy I can create or put in a fic, but it stops there.

And I agree that no one is an expect on Shep except for the writers themselves, and even than, some of difference of opinions.

If some want to feel that John has only changed because of the death of one person than that's fine, but he's lost alot of people.

Colonel Sumner, Ford, Gorin, Carson, many others, His Dad, the responsibilities of what Michael has done, what the Replicators have done and so on. He's always has been a sacrificing hero, cause that's just how he is, even before he went to Atlantis.

So, I'm ending with agree to disagree and everyone can chose to ship or not to ship. :)

Southern Red
February 10th, 2009, 08:14 AM
Since we're all being so reasonable today and acknowledging the fact that other ships may indeed exist and that those shippers have the right to ship anyone with anyone else they please, I have a new idea. Yes, that does occasionally happen.

I think the medic could have been Janet Frasier. She's a doctor and military in our universe. Not too much of a stretch to see her as a field medic in that AU. Or maybe even Dr. Lam. That's even better. I'm sure General Landry would take too kindly to the man who failed to save his daughter and got a lot of people killed in the process. But because she loved him, to honor her memory the General just had Sheppard thrown out of the Air Force rather than into Leavenworth.

Logic is a wonderful thing. Except when it isn't.

scifan
February 10th, 2009, 08:33 AM
Since we're all being so reasonable today and acknowledging the fact that other ships may indeed exist and that those shippers have the right to ship anyone with anyone else they please, I have a new idea. Yes, that does occasionally happen.

I think the medic could have been Janet Frasier. She's a doctor and military in our universe. Not too much of a stretch to see her as a field medic in that AU. Or maybe even Dr. Lam. That's even better. I'm sure General Landry would take too kindly to the man who failed to save his daughter and got a lot of people killed in the process. But because she loved him, to honor her memory the General just had Sheppard thrown out of the Air Force rather than into Leavenworth.

Logic is a wonderful thing. Except when it isn't.

Ahhhhh. I thought of Janet too. :D Serioulsy. I was thinking who on Earth could fit that profile and Janet was the first name that popped in my head.
And with Carolyn. That would explain the cover up that Rodney mention. ;)

Edit: Who needs logic when it's fiction. :D

Southern Red
February 10th, 2009, 08:39 AM
Ahhhhh. I thought of Janet too. :D Serioulsy. I was thinking who on Earth could fit that profile and Janet was the first name that popped in my head.
And with Carolyn. That would explain the cover up that Rodney mention. ;)

Edit: Who needs logic when it's fiction. :D

There ya go. We agree on something. Right because Daddy did not want his daughter's name connected to a big scandal with details on the hour on CNN.

maxbo
February 10th, 2009, 08:41 AM
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people without the bias of being a Sparky or a Sheyla do not think it possible that the medic is Weir, which should hold some weight. As I said, I can see why you think that and if its makes you happy then please continue thinking that, but in no way is it canon.

That's true, because the only people who want to believe that the medic was Elizabeth are some of the Elizabeth and John shippers. There's nothing wrong with that, but it would be silly to think that those who don't share this feeling have a bias against this ship.


I'm lost. Is there any reason that the medic would have been Weir?

I was lost too, when I first heard this, but I've since realized that it's a harmless (usually) shipper thing. A fun way to continue to enjoy the show by letting your imagination come up with scenarios that work for you. I know I've had to do that a lot this season, especially.


Was there a medic in Afghanistan in the 'real' Shep's past?

Unless that guy in Phathoms was a medic, I don't know.


Have you looked around in that whump thread lately? There is a very high number of Sheyla shippers compared to the Sparky shippers. Nothing wrong with that, but over on the Sparky thread I don't know of anyone who dislikes Vegas. And we love John over there too. And please, what does canon have to do with shipping? :lol:


I don't know what the ratio of Teyla/John shippers and Elizabeth/John shippers is in the Shep Whump thread, but I think it would come as news to the Shep Whumpers that their thread is believed to have enough shippers, of any group, to influence how they view this episode. :lol:

They all love Sheppard too, but they don't all love Vegas. I've even run across some Elizabeth/John shippers who didn't enjoy Vegas so I don't know why none of them have shared their feelings in the shipper thread.

And, what does canon have to do with shipping, indeed. Especially, canon ship written by these writers. Just thinking about what they did with McKeller is enough to make me shudder.:S


This is the probably the one and only time we'll agree on anything, but you're right. It is totally ridiculous for any group, shippers or not, to insist their POV is the only correct one.

A-freaking-men! If most posters had followed this bit of common sense - that their POV is merely their POV, then perhaps GW's new rules of civil behavior wouldn't have been necessary. Okay, maybe not.


Right. He should stay home in his own galaxy and take care of things there. No point in running off to another galaxy where he doesn't have a personal stake in things. He should stay home with his laptop and save Earth. :D

I agree. If Rodney has more of a personal stake in Earth, then he should stay there and leave the Pegasus galaxy to the useless-on-Earth Teyla and Ronon. That works for me!:P

scifan
February 10th, 2009, 08:43 AM
There ya go. We agree on something. Right because Daddy did not want his daughter's name connected to a big scandal with details on the hour on CNN.


Yep! Sounds good to me. :D
Maybe some forbidden love and all that too. ;)

CazzBlade
February 10th, 2009, 08:51 AM
And with Carolyn.


Me?? :D:D I'm sorry, couldn't resist :P

But yeah, I agree with Southern Red, they both crossed my mind at some point :)

scifan
February 10th, 2009, 08:56 AM
Me?? :D:D I'm sorry, couldn't resist :P

But yeah, I agree with Southern Red, they both crossed my mind at some point :)

:lol: I didn't think about you two having the same name. :D :lol:

This is more fun. :)

Anuna
February 10th, 2009, 11:04 AM
There ya go. We agree on something. Right because Daddy did not want his daughter's name connected to a big scandal with details on the hour on CNN.

And I think we can equal John's Lizzie face to his I loved her then lost her face. I think that medic could have been anyone from Earth, and I think it's not completely unconvincing it could have been Weir. What matters, to me and my fellow shippers, is John's demeanor which is the same in Vegas AU and in eps concerning Weir's loss.

Hehe, I love your idea, SR. I also thought of Dr. Lam. It's very logical!

scifan
February 10th, 2009, 11:38 AM
And I think we can equal John's Lizzie face to his I loved her then lost her face. I think that medic could have been anyone from Earth, and I think it's not completely unconvincing it could have been Weir. What matters, to me and my fellow shippers, is John's demeanor which is the same in Vegas AU and in eps concerning Weir's loss.

Hehe, I love your idea, SR. I also thought of Dr. Lam. It's very logical!

I see where you coming from, hun and I'm not ruling it out, but it could also be the adding up of fail things in his life. It's not alway just one thing(not that I'm ruling it out), but the AU Shep seemed to have a life of constant bad luck and that would depress anyone.

(For me) Our Shep has been slowly going down that road for sometimes. Almost every year at Atlantis he's losing some one and he might feel the pressure of that. I'm just guessing. Elizabeth, Carson and mainly his team are his family and losing anyone them would be hard.

I personally think Doppelganger is a good example. He was crushed when Kate died. He blamed it all on himself and he was mortified when he thought Rodney died.
Or even S&R. If it wasn't for Ronon being there, he would've given up. IMO

I'm just saying that I don't disagree that losing Elizabeth wasn't hard on him. I mean, he had to do it 3 times. Once in Lifeline, then in TMC and finally Git M. If he didn't feel remorse then I would think of him as being cold and uncaring, which he is not.

But he also feels for many other people and would lay his life done for them as well. I hope that's ok, how I explained it. :o

Scary Kitty
February 10th, 2009, 12:04 PM
Carolyn Lam as the medic? Southern Red, that's delicious! (and damn, if Landry was still a General in the VegasAU, that'd dump even more mud on John at the court martial! Heehee! :D)


I'm not saying that, I'm saying that people without the bias of being a Sparky or a Sheyla do not think it possible that the medic is Weir, which should hold some weight. As I said, I can see why you think that and if its makes you happy then please continue thinking that, but in no way is it canon.

And as I said before, just because they are not shippers does not automatically give their opinions more 'weight' than opinions held by shippers, whether we're Sparkies, Sheylas, Shep/Larrins, Shep/Kellers, or whoever else. I think you're giving them a little too much credit.


And I think we can equal John's Lizzie face to his I loved her then lost her face. I think that medic could have been anyone from Earth, and I think it's not completely unconvincing it could have been Weir. What matters, to me and my fellow shippers, is John's demeanor which is the same in Vegas AU and in eps concerning Weir's loss.

Exactly. Yes, Canon!John has lost plenty of people too, none of us is denying that. But we have NEVER seen him display as deep an emotional response over those losses as he did over the multiple losses of Elizabeth. Hell, he was practically in tears watching her surgery in Adrift, for pity's sake! He's certainly never done that for anyone else. And ever since, he's always had that same woobie face every time a reminder of Elizabeth comes up. The point is, it's the parallel between the depth of emotion over Elizabeth in canon, and the depth of emotion over the unnamed medic in Vegas, that has led many Sparky fans to believe the medic could possibly be Elizabeth.

But yeah, it could be Lam. Or Heightmeyer. Hmm, I kinda like Nancy too. (Speaking of Nancy, isn't it interesting that Vegas!Rodney specifically mentioned that Vegas!Shep had never been married? Now that's some tasty food for thought!)

Cautious Explorer
February 10th, 2009, 12:24 PM
And as I said before, just because they are not shippers does not automatically give their opinions more 'weight' than opinions held by shippers, whether we're Sparkies, Sheylas, Shep/Larrins, Shep/Kellers, or whoever else. I think you're giving them a little too much credit.

I'm interpreting that comment as: They have neither a bias for Weir being the medic (S/W) or against it (J/T). I don't think there's any implication that non-shippers are somehow superior.




Exactly. Yes, Canon!John has lost plenty of people too, none of us is denying that. But we have NEVER seen him display as deep an emotional response over those losses as he did over the multiple losses of Elizabeth. Hell, he was practically in tears watching her surgery in Adrift, for pity's sake! He's certainly never done that for anyone else. And ever since, he's always had that same woobie face every time a reminder of Elizabeth comes up. The point is, it's the parallel between the depth of emotion over Elizabeth in canon, and the depth of emotion over the unnamed medic in Vegas, that has led many Sparky fans to believe the medic could possibly be Elizabeth.

But yeah, it could be Lam. Or Heightmeyer. Hmm, I kinda like Nancy too. (Speaking of Nancy, isn't it interesting that Vegas!Rodney specifically mentioned that Vegas!Shep had never been married? Now that's some tasty food for thought!)

I saw tears in John's eyes at Carson's funeral. :P

scifan
February 10th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Carolyn Lam as the medic? Southern Red, that's delicious! (and damn, if Landry was still a General in the VegasAU, that'd dump even more mud on John at the court martial! Heehee! )



And as I said before, just because they are not shippers does not automatically give their opinions more 'weight' than opinions held by shippers, whether we're Sparkies, Sheylas, Shep/Larrins, Shep/Kellers, or whoever else. I think you're giving them a little too much credit.



Exactly. Yes, Canon!John has lost plenty of people too, none of us is denying that. But we have NEVER seen him display as deep an emotional response over those losses as he did over the multiple losses of Elizabeth. Hell, he was practically in tears watching her surgery in Adrift, for pity's sake! He's certainly never done that for anyone else. And ever since, he's always had that same woobie face every time a reminder of Elizabeth comes up. The point is, it's the parallel between the depth of emotion over Elizabeth in canon, and the depth of emotion over the unnamed medic in Vegas, that has led many Sparky fans to believe the medic could possibly be Elizabeth.

But yeah, it could be Lam. Or Heightmeyer. Hmm, I kinda like Nancy too. (Speaking of Nancy, isn't it interesting that Vegas!Rodney specifically mentioned that Vegas!Shep had never been married? Now that's some tasty food for thought!)

Ok, but that how you see it and that's ok, but I don't have to and that should be ok too. :o


I'm interpreting that comment as: They have neither a bias for Weir being the medic (S/W) or against it (J/T). I don't think there's any implication that non-shippers are somehow superior.




I saw tears in John's eyes at Carson's funeral. :P


ITA! I've never saw non-shipper present themselves that way either.

That's right. In Doppelganger, when he thought Rodney died. He was barely dragging himself down the corridor.
Miller's Crossing: What the asked Wallace to do.
Enemy at the Gate...
when Teyla told him that Ronon was dead.

I'm sure I can go on, but I'm not.

I see things differently than you and that's totally ok. IMO

Reiko
February 10th, 2009, 02:20 PM
But yeah, it could be Lam. Or Heightmeyer. Hmm, I kinda like Nancy too.)

It could also be Carson. With a sex change.

I make myself sick sometimes. :P

Ruined_puzzle
February 10th, 2009, 07:11 PM
It could also be Carson. With a sex change.

I make myself sick sometimes. :P

HAHA. I <3 you.

Infinite-Possibilities
February 11th, 2009, 07:55 PM
I'm not sure why shippers should be terribly unhappy with Vegas one way or another because AU episodes are intended to try different things, so you usually aren't supposed to get "One True Pairing" across the multiverse. Regarding Weir being the medic: when initially saw the episode, I thought it would be great to think that it was her. Seeing as AU Weir would not necessarily need to correspond exactly to "our" universe's Weir. But in retrospect it seems there really isn't a lot of reason to think that she was. It is certianly not that I do not believe it was possible, she totally could be the medic but despite my support for the pairing, I logically feel its unlikely.
The episode implied that it was something that "our" Sheppard also experienced except he either succeeded or otherwise faired significantly . The premier did mention that Sheppard had a black mark in Afghanistan for disobeying direct orders which I figured (upon watching Rising again) that it was intended to be the same incident. It didn't mention any medic or anyone else he was romantically entangled with (which kind of feels important to mention) but at least a similar event happened in the "regular reality". Ultimately it is still left unspecified, so it's probably best for all.

The ting about the "Vegas" and it's reality's Sheppard and his history was that is is still different than "our" Sheppard. The similarities between the two might be considerable and the basic emotions in their unhappy situations, at their core, the same; but they are still two people who have had very different lives.

EvenstarSRV
February 11th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Why would Rodney's weeks on a ship be unproductive? He can model a theorum from any old computer, regardless of its location. He can examine an ancient database as easilly from the chair in his earthbound office or a stool in atlantis or his berth in the Daedalus. I cannot imagine Rodney wasting time as long as he has a functioning laptop :)

And earth is Rodney's home. He's got actual reasons to be there. Ronon hasn't; Teyla hasn't.

See, this is where I see the argument break down, because the AU McKay specific reason for being on Earth during Vegas was to hunt down the rogue Wraith. If he can do other stuff at the time great for him, but his primary mission was to track down the Wraith. I would think that on a defined mission like that, two true Wraith experts would be helpful.

Though since I don't think McKay ever said how he came back to Earth, for all we know Midway still exists in this AU and the trip would have only taken a day, less if they weren't quarantined.




Nothing. It makes little odds out of Rodney, Sam, Jeannie, Zelenka and no odubt others, which of them is in Atlantis leading research and who is in Area51 or the SGC or whatever. No doubt one of those other genuis-level scientists in in charge of Atlantis' labs in that reality.

It makes a heck of a lot of odds where Teyla and Ronon are though. They'd be rather useless on Earth, and they'd hate being useless.

And I again, I don't see how Teyla and Ronon would be useless on a hunt for a Wraith no matter what planet they happen to be on. If they were permanently relocating to Earth it would be different (something that I hope they address in the movie), but to me this seemed like a specific one-time mission to hunt down this rogue Wraith.

And as far as usefulness is concerned, McKay's contribution to the search was essentially just giving the AU Sheppard an info dump on the Wraith, telling him not to engage him, and calling in the fighters. Anybody could have done that, Woolsey, Zelenka, even Walter.