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rsanchez
December 6th, 2008, 05:29 AM
I loved the Todd-Sheppard dynamic in this episode. It reminds me of two teenage guys who just went out with each others' exes and are pissed at each other about it. Todd gets angry at John about the treatment, and John gets angry at Todd about the Daedalus. Then it's the "I'll never speak to you again!" phase of the relationship. (On second thought, it's looking like two teenage girls who stole each others' boyfriends...) But then Todd saves the day, Sheppard repays the favor, and Todd says what I think is the best line: "I will not forget this John Sheppard" with what looked like a smile.

I think this episode really advanced the Todd-Sheppard relationship. Ever since they first met these guys have been helping each other out, building nothing but respect for each other. I say they should let McKeller get it on outside of Atlantis and bring in Todd to replace him. Even Ronon said "what are friends for," albeit a little sarcastically, but he still said it.

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 06:11 AM
I loved the Todd-Sheppard dynamic in this episode. It reminds me of two teenage guys who just went out with each others' exes and are pissed at each other about it. Todd gets angry at John about the treatment, and John gets angry at Todd about the Daedalus. Then it's the "I'll never speak to you again!" phase of the relationship. (On second thought, it's looking like two teenage girls who stole each others' boyfriends...) But then Todd saves the day, Sheppard repays the favor, and Todd says what I think is the best line: "I will not forget this John Sheppard" with what looked like a smile.

I think this episode really advanced the Todd-Sheppard relationship. Ever since they first met these guys have been helping each other out, building nothing but respect for each other. I say they should let McKeller get it on outside of Atlantis and bring in Todd to replace him. Even Ronon said "what are friends for," albeit a little sarcastically, but he still said it.

I completely agree!

When you get right down to it, this was about CARS. Well...ships, which are the sci fi equivalent to cars. Todd stole Sheppard's car...and nearly crashed it. Sheppard got mad. I mean, what kind of guy disrespects another dude's 'ride' like that? A guy like that shouldn't even have a driver's license!

Now, the tables are turned. Sheppard is in Todd's car, and the old clunker is having major problems - engine's giving out, the air conditioning doesn't work, brakes are worn...heck, the entire rear end - exhaust, trunk, rear axle - just fell off! Still, Sheppard lets Todd get behind the wheel - perhaps just to give the guy a second chance, see what sort of driver the fella really is.

Well, any guy had to be impressed with the way Todd handled his 'car', his dying ship...he not only controlled her, he literally melded with her...first with a bit of force, the, ever so gently, he coaxed her down, and settled her on her belly.

As one driver - or pilot - to another, Sheppard HAD to be impressed with Todd's performance. The Wraith was sick, not just sick, but terminally ill...and still he managed to land that ship safely, and save them all.

I really hated Sheppard in the beginning of this episode, but man...he did redeem himself in the end. I love his relationship with Todd...there is a GREAT dynamic there, made even better by Todd's inherent crankiness, and Sheppard's snark. These two would be great in a buddy movie...lol...good cop, green cop...ya know, that sort of thing. ;)


das

Laura Dove
December 6th, 2008, 06:56 AM
I really hated Sheppard in the beginning of this episode, but man...he did redeem himself in the end. I love his relationship with Todd...there is a GREAT dynamic there, made even better by Todd's inherent crankiness, and Sheppard's snark. These two would be great in a buddy movie...lol...good cop, green cop...ya know, that sort of thing. ;)

I didn't like Sheppard much before, but this episode made me completely hate him. He was willing to abandon the dying wraith to their fates, he woke a very sick Todd up to save his team but with no intention of curing him or his crew, he ordered the murder of the entire crew in stasis (who would have died anyway when the ship broke in half, but Sheppard didn't know it at the time), he denied Todd the hope of curing himself and his crew (the ship wouldn't have lasted long enough, but again, Sheppard didn't know it), and he dares play morally superior to Todd about the Daedalus crashing attempt?! Is that supposed to be showing respect?

So granted, Sheppard redeemed himself somewhat at the end after Todd saved him and his team with nothing but a mere promise, but man, he lost any kind of respect or sympathy I might ever have had for him. He's a jerk and an hypocrite, and only has honour when Todd - a wraith! - proves more trustworthy and honourable than himself. Todd had to save his life gratuitously in "Common Ground", not even expecting Sheppard would keep his word in return, before Sheppard considered himself actually bound by their promise once he, himself, was safe. And in "Infection" again, despite having every reason to believe Sheppard wouldn't let him go or cure him at the end, Todd had to agreed to save them all, losing his chance at a quick and painless death, to earn the most basic bit of respect.

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 07:04 AM
I didn't like Sheppard much before, but this episode made me completely hate him. He was willing to abandon the dying wraith to their fates, he woke a very sick Todd up to save his team but with no intention of curing him or his crew, he ordered the murder of the entire crew in stasis (who would have died anyway when the ship broke in half, but Sheppard didn't know it at the time), he denied Todd the hope of curing himself and his crew (the ship wouldn't have lasted long enough, but again, Sheppard didn't know it), and he dares play morally superior to Todd about the Daedalus crashing attempt?! Is that supposed to be showing respect?

So granted, Sheppard redeemed himself somewhat at the end after Todd saved him and his team with nothing but a mere promise, but man, he lost any kind of respect or sympathy I might ever have had for him. He's a jerk and an hypocrite, and only has honour when Todd - a wraith! - proves more trustworthy and honourable than himself. Todd had to save his life gratuitously in "Common Ground", not even expecting Sheppard would keep his word in return, before Sheppard considered himself actually bound by their promise once he, himself, was safe. And in "Infection" again, despite having every reason to believe Sheppard wouldn't let him go or cure him at the end, Todd had to agreed to save them all, losing his chance at a quick and painless death, to earn the most basic bit of respect.

Well, yeah...there is all of that. *hangs head in shame* I guess I have HOPE that what we saw at the end of this episode WILL be carried through the end of the season, and beyond. I hope that now Sheppard will no longer be looking for ways to kill Todd, and Todd will fully trust - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Sheppard's word. That's what I hope for, and why I had a positive feeling about their relationship in the end.

I DO love the tension between the two - that is something I just eat right up. So, I have no complaints there, although - yeah - they treat Todd like garbage, no matter how far he sticks his lovely green neck out for them. But I DO think their reactions in this episode were based on his commandeering the Daedalus, and planning to crash it into the planet. All previous trust had been put on very shaky ground because of that, so I can understand *some* of the Lanteans' apprehensions. Not all...and certainly not their continued 'the only good Wraith is a dead Wraith' mantra...but I do see why they were not eager to immediately trust Todd in this one.

das

JackHarkness_Hot
December 6th, 2008, 07:07 AM
I'm sure you will agree with me das, but who knows, Todd and Sheppard could end up... ;)

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 07:16 AM
I'm sure you will agree with me das, but who knows, Todd and Sheppard could end up... ;)

Well, Sheppard IS a big flirt around Todd...I've said it before. I think he's a bit smitten...and was really hurt by Todd's rejection in TLT. And, of course, with Todd being the dominantly superior species and all, we all know which one of 'em is gonna end up being the girl. ;)

Heck...isn't the SGA movie called...Twilight??! I can just hear Todd now...as he looks longingly into Shep's eyes, "I feel very protective of you, John Sheppard..."

hehehehehe....

:P

das

bluealien
December 6th, 2008, 07:28 AM
Well, yeah...there is all of that. *hangs head in shame* I guess I have HOPE that what we saw at the end of this episode WILL be carried through the end of the season, and beyond. I hope that now Sheppard will no longer be looking for ways to kill Todd, and Todd will fully trust - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Sheppard's word. That's what I hope for, and why I had a positive feeling about their relationship in the end.

I DO love the tension between the two - that is something I just eat right up. So, I have no complaints there, although - yeah - they treat Todd like garbage, no matter how far he sticks his lovely green neck out for them. But I DO think their reactions in this episode were based on his commandeering the Daedalus, and planning to crash it into the planet. All previous trust had been put on very shaky ground because of that, so I can understand *some* of the Lanteans' apprehensions. Not all...and certainly not their continued 'the only good Wraith is a dead Wraith' mantra...but I do see why they were not eager to immediately trust Todd in this one.

das


There will never be complete trust between them and they were basically back to being enemies after the fiasco of First Contact. That's the last impression that Sheppard had of Todd... being betrayed by him.. Todd was going to let the Daedalus burn up with all the crew on board.. so why should Sheppard be willing to trust Todd.

Though once they shared time together and let all their pent up anger out :P. they realised that they do have a mutual respect for one another.. Sheppard is a soldier and ultimately will do what is best for his team and his people and so will Todd... so Sheppard was not going to let dozens of mad Wraith wake up and start chomping on them... they had already snacked on one marine.. so he does what any soldier would do and tries to neutralize the threat.....

When Todd said he owed him.. my first reaction was yeah he did... but then Shep had helped him since saving his life in CG, and after the FC scenario they were pretty much back to being enemies... though enemies who do have a grudging respect for one another but who will BOTH do what is best for their own people... but neither pull any puches when in battle but when they have come to a deal.. they both keep to it and therefore I have to say that Sheppard is as honorable as Todd in that respect.. he didnt have to save Todd or let him go but he did..


If things go wrong again between them in their next encounter I don't expect either of them would hesitate to kill the other if the need arose... we saw that Todd had no problem in killing the Daedalus crew so I don't see any difference with Sheppard having no problem in disposing of the wraith that he knew would be threat to him and his team...

lcshepp
December 6th, 2008, 07:29 AM
I didn't like Sheppard much before, but this episode made me completely hate him. He was willing to abandon the dying wraith to their fates, he woke a very sick Todd up to save his team but with no intention of curing him or his crew, he ordered the murder of the entire crew in stasis (who would have died anyway when the ship broke in half, but Sheppard didn't know it at the time), he denied Todd the hope of curing himself and his crew (the ship wouldn't have lasted long enough, but again, Sheppard didn't know it), and he dares play morally superior to Todd about the Daedalus crashing attempt?! Is that supposed to be showing respect?

So granted, Sheppard redeemed himself somewhat at the end after Todd saved him and his team with nothing but a mere promise, but man, he lost any kind of respect or sympathy I might ever have had for him. He's a jerk and an hypocrite, and only has honour when Todd - a wraith! - proves more trustworthy and honourable than himself. Todd had to save his life gratuitously in "Common Ground", not even expecting Sheppard would keep his word in return, before Sheppard considered himself actually bound by their promise once he, himself, was safe. And in "Infection" again, despite having every reason to believe Sheppard wouldn't let him go or cure him at the end, Todd had to agreed to save them all, losing his chance at a quick and painless death, to earn the most basic bit of respect.

Well, they are at war. They are still enemies. 'Respect', 'trustworthy', and 'honorable' aren't usually in the military's vocabulary in regards to the enemy.
Sheppard's first responsiblity is his team.

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 07:39 AM
There will never be complete trust between them and they were basically back to being enemies after the fiasco of First Contact. That's the last impression that Sheppard had of Todd... being betrayed by him.. Todd was going to let the Daedalus burn up with all the crew on board.. so why should Sheppard be willing to trust Todd.

Though once they shared time together and let all their pent up anger out :P. they realised that they do have a mutual respect for one another.. Sheppard is a soldier and ultimately will do what is best for his team and his people and so will Todd... so Sheppard was not going to let dozens of mad Wraith wake up and start chomping on them... they had already snacked on one marine.. so he does what any soldier would do and tries to neutralize the threat.....

When Todd said he owed him.. my first reaction was yeah he did... but then Shep had helped him since saving his life in CG, and after the FC scenario they were pretty much back to being enemies... though enemies who do have a grudging respect for one another but who will BOTH do what is best for their own people... but neither pull any puches when in battle but when they have come to a deal.. they both keep to it and therefore I have to say that Sheppard is as honorable as Todd in that respect.. he didnt have to save Todd or let him go but he did..


If things go wrong again between them in their next encounter I don't expect either of them would hesitate to kill the other if the need arose... we saw that Todd had no problem in killing the Daedalus crew so I don't see any difference with Sheppard having no problem in disposing of the wraith that he knew would be threat to him and his team...


I gotta run, but just want to say one thing - yes, you make very good points. However, Todd has sacrificed EVERYTHING to find peaceful coexistence with humans - everything - his identity, perhaps his standing among his own kind, even his own nature - in order to find a different way. What have the humans sacrificed for Wraith? Nothing...nothing at all. This is where the relationship is very lopsided - Todd always has to be the one who gives, or else he's dead. The humans never have to give one thing in return, except a *promise* not to kill him...as if I'd believe that one. So, just think about it a bit...think about all that Todd is giving up...and mainly doing so because he DOES have respect for Sheppard. Otherwise, he would have fed on them a long time ago.

Even with the Daedalus, Todd respected the human crew by giving them what would have been a quick, painless death. Knowing that the crew was doomed anyway, he COULD have allowed his crew to feed on all of those healthy, non-hoffan drug infected, humans. He could have...and if he was evil at heart, he would have. But instead - in having no choice but to crash the ship to stop the Attero Device - he opted to give them a quick, honorable death, instead of humiliating them all by feeding on them first.

So, Todd has certainly made sacrifices. Now it's time for the Lanteans to do a bit of that themselves.


das

Laura Dove
December 6th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Well, yeah...there is all of that. *hangs head in shame* I guess I have HOPE that what we saw at the end of this episode WILL be carried through the end of the season, and beyond. I hope that now Sheppard will no longer be looking for ways to kill Todd, and Todd will fully trust - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Sheppard's word. That's what I hope for, and why I had a positive feeling about their relationship in the end.

I do have hopes for the future too, but I really wished more than once during the episode that Todd would suddenly regain his feeding hand and just feed on Sheppard on the spot. :mad: The only reason why Todd would be so cheerful with Sheppard at the end is because the writers want to emphasise that Sheppard is supposed to be the good guy and the hero of the show, but if you think about it, all Sheppard did was keep a promise and repay his debt to someone whom he owes his life.

If the situation had been reversed, Sheppard saving Todd's hive while being at his mercy, and being all smiling at the end when Todd frees him, everybody would have complained about Sheppard being stupid to be so nice with a wraith just because he lets him go. So why should I be happy with Todd taking a level 0 honour behaviour as a huge favour?


I DO love the tension between the two - that is something I just eat right up. So, I have no complaints there, although - yeah - they treat Todd like garbage, no matter how far he sticks his lovely green neck out for them. But I DO think their reactions in this episode were based on his commandeering the Daedalus, and planning to crash it into the planet. All previous trust had been put on very shaky ground because of that, so I can understand *some* of the Lanteans' apprehensions. Not all...and certainly not their continued 'the only good Wraith is a dead Wraith' mantra...but I do see why they were not eager to immediately trust Todd in this one.

I love the tension too, but I loved it like it was in "Spoils of War" or "The Kindred 1". They were both very wary of each other, not truly trusting each other, even threatening each other in veiled terms, but still willing to play along for their mutual benefit. That's the Todd I love: Scary and disturbing, but working side by side with them.

I agree their first reaction was the only logical one: Cloak the city and prepare to fire drones on the hive, then be very careful while sending a cloaked jumper, then once they got the full message, take a team of marines with them to be safe. I would even have understood refusing to help them from the go, and for example, waking Todd to argue with him that they wanted something in return. At worse, I would have understood them not wanting to help the wraith at all. But waking Todd despite his poor shape, just to help them with only insults in return, like he is their slave or something, I can't forgive that.


So, Todd has certainly made sacrifices. Now it's time for the Lanteans to do a bit of that themselves.

Come on, Sheppard did just made an immense sacrifice, he released Todd and took a chance he might survive the sickness and the iratus bug. /end sarcasm

Anon
December 6th, 2008, 08:05 AM
ohhh, they bonded, great. Now todd needs to repay us.

bluealien
December 6th, 2008, 08:06 AM
I gotta run, but just want to say one thing - yes, you make very good points. However, Todd has sacrificed EVERYTHING to find peaceful coexistence with humans - everything - his identity, perhaps his standing among his own kind, even his own nature - in order to find a different way. What have the humans sacrificed for Wraith? Nothing...nothing at all. This is where the relationship is very lopsided - Todd always has to be the one who gives, or else he's dead. The humans never have to give one thing in return, except a *promise* not to kill him...as if I'd believe that one. So, just think about it a bit...think about all that Todd is giving up...and mainly doing so because he DOES have respect for Sheppard. Otherwise, he would have fed on them a long time ago.

Even with the Daedalus, Todd respected the human crew by giving them what would have been a quick, painless death. Knowing that the crew was doomed anyway, he COULD have allowed his crew to feed on all of those healthy, non-hoffan drug infected, humans. He could have...and if he was evil at heart, he would have. But instead - in having no choice but to crash the ship to stop the Attero Device - he opted to give them a quick, honorable death, instead of humiliating them all by feeding on them first.

So, Todd has certainly made sacrifices. Now it's time for the Lanteans to do a bit of that themselves.


das

You also make very good points.. but irrespective of what kind of death Todd was giving the crew of the Daedalus he was still killing them... and didnt have a problem in doing so because he was doing what was best for his own people and insuring their survival.... I think Shep comes across as being harsh and unforgiving to the Wraith maybe because he does see them still as being the big bad enemy who suck the life out of people and have distroyed many worlds.....ie Ronon's entire world.. so that would leave him feeling less than compassionate at times.. but Todd has made him see the wraith differently and I do believe Sheppard has a grudging respect for him.. I don't think he sees them as mindless monsters anymore and Todd has been the one to change his mind... but he still can't let his guard down... can't really fully trust Todd because they are still enemies, who are for the most part using one another to get what they want...and this is what Todd is doing in a way as well.

Yes he has given up a lot and made sacrifices but for the benefit of his own kind... he would not be doing this if he didnt see it as a solution to helping the Wraith... he knows things can only get worse for them in the future if they have to rely on feeding on humans... there are too many of them and not enough food.. em.. humans, so not having to feed is a possible better future for his kind and may even be their only chance at survival.. so I don't think Todd is helping the humans out of the goodness of his heart or what benefit it will be to them , but for the good of his own people... he didnt have to try out the cure.... he chose to and most likely because he did believe that it was the best way forward...

But I do see Todd and Sheppard's relationship being a main factor in bringing any sort of truce or change amongst the wraith .. but for now they are still enemies and are both looking for the best solution for their own people, but I do think they both have respect for the other.. eventhough Sheppards soldier instincts make it difficult for him to trust in the so called enemy at times..:)

JackHarkness_Hot
December 6th, 2008, 08:16 AM
Well, Sheppard IS a big flirt around Todd...I've said it before. I think he's a bit smitten...and was really hurt by Todd's rejection in TLT. And, of course, with Todd being the dominantly superior species and all, we all know which one of 'em is gonna end up being the girl. ;)

Heck...isn't the movie called...Twilight??! I can just hear Todd now...as he looks longingly into Shep's eyes, "I feel very protective of you, John Sheppard..."

hehehehehe....

:P

dasI'll pay to see that and the bed scene. ;)

Laura Dove
December 6th, 2008, 09:08 AM
ohhh, they bonded, great. Now todd needs to repay us.

For killing his entire crew with a virus? That'd be very satisfying, yes.

SerenaSerenity
December 6th, 2008, 10:21 AM
I gotta run, but just want to say one thing - yes, you make very good points. However, Todd has sacrificed EVERYTHING to find peaceful coexistence with humans - everything - his identity, perhaps his standing among his own kind, even his own nature - in order to find a different way. What have the humans sacrificed for Wraith? Nothing...nothing at all. This is where the relationship is very lopsided - Todd always has to be the one who gives, or else he's dead. The humans never have to give one thing in return, except a *promise* not to kill him...as if I'd believe that one. So, just think about it a bit...think about all that Todd is giving up...and mainly doing so because he DOES have respect for Sheppard. Otherwise, he would have fed on them a long time ago.

Even with the Daedalus, Todd respected the human crew by giving them what would have been a quick, painless death. Knowing that the crew was doomed anyway, he COULD have allowed his crew to feed on all of those healthy, non-hoffan drug infected, humans. He could have...and if he was evil at heart, he would have. But instead - in having no choice but to crash the ship to stop the Attero Device - he opted to give them a quick, honorable death, instead of humiliating them all by feeding on them first.

So, Todd has certainly made sacrifices. Now it's time for the Lanteans to do a bit of that themselves.


das

I have to disagree. Nothing against your own opinion of course. But I do have to say that they have sacrificed things. They put themselves at risk by trusting him. Hell, he could run off and tell the other Wraith where Atlantis is, it's exact location. And then they'd be screwed. They are putting all the lives of Atlantis on the line by letting him live. So, in a sense they are sacrificing things too. In a different way sure. But it's still a sacrifice all the same. Woolsey was right that such a decision could cost him his job. Because Todd is still considered an enemy plain and simple. *nod nod* My own personal opinion of course. Nothing against yours. To each their own.

silvercomet
December 6th, 2008, 05:30 PM
I loved the Todd-Sheppard dynamic in this episode. It reminds me of two teenage guys who just went out with each others' exes and are pissed at each other about it. Todd gets angry at John about the treatment, and John gets angry at Todd about the Daedalus. Then it's the "I'll never speak to you again!" phase of the relationship. (On second thought, it's looking like two teenage girls who stole each others' boyfriends...) But then Todd saves the day, Sheppard repays the favor, and Todd says what I think is the best line: "I will not forget this John Sheppard" with what looked like a smile.

I think this episode really advanced the Todd-Sheppard relationship. Ever since they first met these guys have been helping each other out, building nothing but respect for each other. I say they should let McKeller get it on outside of Atlantis and bring in Todd to replace him. Even Ronon said "what are friends for," albeit a little sarcastically, but he still said it.

I wouldn't say 'best friends' (thread title). But you're right. Most of all I enjoyed in this episode the interaction and emotions between Sheppard and Todd. They are enemies and at the same time they aid one another. Todd is an interesting character. And that rubs off on Sheppard. I hope we'll see more of that. :)

Pharaoh Atem
December 6th, 2008, 05:33 PM
todd and shep do have a good friendship it's just hit a rough patch right now ;)

rsanchez
December 6th, 2008, 05:39 PM
I agree with SerenaSerenity. The relationship is not entirely lopsided. You could tell in the beginning of the episode that they were panicking when a hive ship was coming near. Even with the super beams and the zpm, they still know the Wraith can knock them out of the galaxy if they knew where Atlantis is. They trust Todd enough to let him live with that knowledge, despite knowing that it might cause an invasion or a siege. Granted, Sheppard did want to blow Todd's hive out of the sky in the beginning, but cooler heads prevailed, and it was Sheppard who wanted to check out the ship when they realized there were no life signs aboard.

Plus, let's be serious. If some alien just ate one of your team "with teeth like an animal," you would want those aliens dead. I doubt even Todd could have controlled them. He ordered the crew killed because he couldn't be certain that they would remain in stasis, so he might as well have killed them when they didn't pose a threat.

Finally, I don't think he was acting morally superior about the Daedalus. I think it was exactly like das said, Todd was pissed because his "bro messed up his truck," and Sheppard reminded him what his "bro did with his car." At the end, I still think they had respect for each other, with the suspicion always in the back of their minds. Todd's smiling at the end could have been in disbelief that after all that the humans did, they would keep their word and let him leave. I don't think it was so much to make Sheppard look like the good guy.

DragonLadyK
December 6th, 2008, 06:13 PM
The treachery, the selfishness, the bargaining, the posturing: they're all typical Wraith politics. For Todd, dealing with Sheppard must be like family. Finally, to Todd, a human without the weak moral posturing -- "Do you think Sheppard would agree with you?" he asked Keller.

IMO, of course.

DragonLady

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 06:18 PM
I have to disagree. Nothing against your own opinion of course. But I do have to say that they have sacrificed things. They put themselves at risk by trusting him. Hell, he could run off and tell the other Wraith where Atlantis is, it's exact location. And then they'd be screwed. They are putting all the lives of Atlantis on the line by letting him live. So, in a sense they are sacrificing things too. In a different way sure. But it's still a sacrifice all the same. Woolsey was right that such a decision could cost him his job. Because Todd is still considered an enemy plain and simple. *nod nod* My own personal opinion of course. Nothing against yours. To each their own.


I hear what you're saying...but in the end, the Lanteans haven't 'sacrificed' anything. Let's compare the Lanteans to Todd...

1. The Lanteans still live in Atlantis (Todd - well, he has sacrificed his freedom to help the Lanteans, and now - he once again has no ship because of them and their therapy).

2. They are still human (Todd - who knows exactly what he is now - not a hybrid, just not a life-sucking Wraith. He has given up his biological nature in an attempt to work with humans).

3. They are still part of their original society and governmental system (Todd has probably forfeited that at the moment - and we don't even know if the Wraith will accept him back now that he's changed).

Those are just three things off the top of my head - the Lanteans have made no real sacrifices in order to find a peaceful coexistence with Wraith. Sure, they have taken chances, but that's not a sacrifice. Todd has actually given up just about everything that he is, and they still do not appreciate it. In this regard, it is a lopsided relationship, with Todd giving up much more than the Lanteans have, or ever will.


das

the fifth man
December 6th, 2008, 09:34 PM
While Todd and John have some respect for one another, I think they are a long way from "best friends". Working together, thus far, has just been in both of their interests.

Wrath Of Odin
December 6th, 2008, 09:46 PM
While Todd and John have some respect for one another, I think they are a long way from "best friends". Working together, thus far, has just been in both of their interests.

My sentiments exactly, to responder to an earlier poster, yes todd could had his wraith feed on the crew of the Daudelaus but at the end of the day his relationship with Atlantis would of still survived all be it on shaky ground, he did what he believed was neccessary to destroy a threat to his entire race and Shep would have no problem plowing an entire wraith fleet into that planet to stop the evil Asgard if it was our 304's at stake.

And after its all said and done, guns pointed at head, rude gestures exchanged and their trade mark arguments that would of been the end of it, we both have similar goals and we both have to do whatever it takes to accomplish them. Think of them as a cross species Stalin and Churchill if you will.

SerenaSerenity
December 7th, 2008, 12:09 PM
I hear what you're saying...but in the end, the Lanteans haven't 'sacrificed' anything. Let's compare the Lanteans to Todd...

1. The Lanteans still live in Atlantis (Todd - well, he has sacrificed his freedom to help the Lanteans, and now - he once again has no ship because of them and their therapy).

2. They are still human (Todd - who knows exactly what he is now - not a hybrid, just not a life-sucking Wraith. He has given up his biological nature in an attempt to work with humans).

3. They are still part of their original society and governmental system (Todd has probably forfeited that at the moment - and we don't even know if the Wraith will accept him back now that he's changed).

Those are just three things off the top of my head - the Lanteans have made no real sacrifices in order to find a peaceful coexistence with Wraith. Sure, they have taken chances, but that's not a sacrifice. Todd has actually given up just about everything that he is, and they still do not appreciate it. In this regard, it is a lopsided relationship, with Todd giving up much more than the Lanteans have, or ever will.


das

While I see where your coming from, I still have to disagree. My own opinion of course.

The first and second are kinda on the same page. He stole that from the Daedalus. That is not the Lanteans fault. It hadn't been fully tested yet and stuff and yet he still tried it on himself and then gave it to his whole crew. They may have created it, but it wasn't done when it was taken. Probably not by a long shot. *nod nod* I mean, the Lanteans hadn't even tried working with it again. So it really isn't their fault that he is now what he is.

And to be honest, can one really trust the person who is above you on the food chain? I mean, yes he lost his ability to feed. But he was more then willing to kill off a bunch of people to destroy a station instead of finding another way of doing it. He didn't give a rats ass about them, so to be honest, why should they care about him?

Maybe he has given more, for the time being. But if he runs off to the other Wraith and tells them the location of Atlantis, then they are screwed. They will get their asses handed to them because they took the chance and trusted Todd. So, maybe chances aren't sacrifice, but they can become sacrifice if certain circumstances come about.

My own personal opinion of course, nothing against yours. To each their own. *nod nod*

BubblingOverWithIdeas
December 7th, 2008, 07:24 PM
The only way Sheppard will truly trust Todd or be his best friend is if Todd has him under mind control.

rsanchez
December 8th, 2008, 08:23 AM
Once again I completely agree with SerenaSerenity. Keller hadn't finished the therapy, which is why she asked Todd and his crew to test it out first and see if anything goes wrong with it. Todd should have known that there might be problems with the therapy.

Also, before anyone says "Todd saved the galaxy blah blah blah," Sheppard got there with the Travelers before Todd, so we didn't really need Todd to try to ram our ship into the planet.