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View Full Version : Do you think that it is wrong how we treat the Wraith in the series?



fumblesmcstupid
December 5th, 2008, 11:56 PM
I'm with Ronon on this one, I see the Wraith as the enemy and we just need to kill them!

In season 1-2 we just killed them!

but in Allies through now... the line is no longer just black and white.

After the retrovirus changed the wraith to human and the Queen fed on a him, it was all different it made them question weather or not we should use the retro virus.

Now, with the gene therapy... yet once again compassion is over running the fact that THEY KILL HUMANS.

I am sitting here listening to my Mom and brother feel sorry for the wraith saying that what we are doing is wrong, to just kill them off.

All I can think is...they ARE WRAITH. They don't care that they kill you or your whole family, they just cull your world, destroy whole civilizations and now we feel sorry for them???

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 12:10 AM
Yes, totally wrong. They are an intelligent species, with untold knowledge and skills. Instead of trying to learn about them - understand them - the Lanteans are always looking for ways to kill them. What makes the Lanteans any different from Wraith? Oh, right...the Wraith kill/killed humans in order to EAT - a necessity - but humans, especially Ronon, kill Wraith out of spite, hatred, anger, and vengeance...in other words, the humans are on the verge of committing genocide, wiping out an entire race/species because they hate them, before they have even come to totally understand them.

And keep in mind, they are always talking about killing Todd, or his alliance, even when he's in the process of TRYING to find an alternative to human feeding. That would be like shooting soldiers dead after they have peacefully surrendered to your army. It's just morally reprehensible.


das

ussrelativity
December 6th, 2008, 12:28 AM
Full agreement.

Today, we see collaboration with parasites.

I didn't like the fighting with the Wraith in the middle of Season 4, for several reasons. Right afterwards, they should have been destroying every hive in range. Too many times now, because of the Atlanteans, the power balance keeps shifting back to the Wraith. Too many times, they have allowed themselves to be compromised (HELLO MIDWAY!!!).

If there was only one thing that the coalition should have found them guilty of, it was collaboration with the Wraith, not only once, but over and over now. They had a Wraith on their ship like some guest of honor. Instead of eliminating them, they choose to "cure" them and work with them. Pegasus isn't their galaxy to play around with. It's no one's to play around with.

The teams from Earth are effectively emulating the Ancients. If anything, they could end up creating a force that would end in their destruction.

Amakusa
December 6th, 2008, 12:37 AM
I didn't like the fighting with the Wraith in the middle of Season 4, for several reasons. Right afterwards, they should have been destroying every hive in range. Too many times now, because of the Atlanteans, the power balance keeps shifting back to the Wraith.


This may come to a surprise for you, but the Wraith can still clobber Atlantis if they knew where they were. Even in the mitigated fast-forward in the Season 4 finale nothing of the Earth superior technology could do anything to stop their enemies.

If there's one thing that Earth should've figured out is that if the super technology of the Ancients wasn't enough to defeat the Wraith outright, using their own superior technology to blow up hives left and right isn't going to do it, either. Remember, even the Daedelus was hard-pressed to fighting Michael's cruiser.

ussrelativity
December 6th, 2008, 12:41 AM
HA! If I was Caldwell, I would have blown it away with the first shot. They deliberately were holding themselves back.

SerenaSerenity
December 6th, 2008, 12:58 AM
Well, in battle, I'm all for killing those who are trying to kill you. But if they surrender and we still slaughter them, then that makes us look real bad. We are their food source. And yes, kill them before they kill you, unless you can find another way of doing it. But if they aren't out to kill you, then why the needless slaughter? I mean, it's just part of the food chain. Just as we kill and eat for our own survival, they are no different. They wanna survive and live just as we do. And if the animals decided to come and wipe us out for killing them, that's the same thing really. But I just don't think that we should wipe out a race because of that. If there is another way, I'm all for it. I mean, they kill to eat, but we kill them out of hate, anger, and revenge. To be honest, that makes them look better then us in my own opinion. They aren't trying to wipe out humanity as they need us to survive. But we are trying to wipe them out. And their whole search for earth as a rich feeding ground, if we found a place where there were animals we could kill and eat in massive abundance, we would so be there. *nod nod*

This is just my own personal opinion. lol Nothing against anyone else's opinion and to each their own. *nod nod*

airrick
December 6th, 2008, 03:01 AM
Predator species are always looked @ as bad guys because they have to kill to eat and survive.. yet they exist.. and they feed based on need..

Sharks, tigers, bears all of these animals hunt and feed and most people would say they are afraid of them.. would probably run from them or kill them based on self defense.. does that mean those animals are evil?

Just food for thought.. no pun intended

x Varda x
December 6th, 2008, 03:23 AM
Ah, but animals act on instinct, whereas Wraith know exactly what they're doing.

It's necessary for them to kill humans to survive though. If cows or chickens suddenly became self aware and could talk - would we still kill and eat them? If they were the only thing we could eat to live?

There isn't really anything to compare it to in real life. I'm all for 'humanising' the Wraith if it's even possible.

airrick
December 6th, 2008, 03:31 AM
Ah, but animals act on instinct, whereas Wraith know exactly what they're doing.

It's necessary for them to kill humans to survive though. If cows or chickens suddenly became self aware and could talk - would we still kill and eat them? If they were the only thing we could eat to live?

There isn't really anything to compare it to in real life. I'm all for 'humanising' the Wraith if it's even possible.

But its all based on perception.. most Wraith dont consider humans on the same level as them, much as we dont consider animals (for the most part) on the same level as us.

For example we have a very strange bond with cats, dogs, etc.. BUT they are still animals. To the Wraith humans are just that, animals.. they dont care about our civilization or culture.. even if they ARE aware youre right.. they HAVE to feed.

I could only imagine being in their position.. whats the nicest way to say.. "Hey I understand you have a family, but I gotta eat"..

My comparison to animals and humans might not be accurate, but I cant think of a better way to explain it.. and since it is science fiction I dont think there is another way to show the cycle unless we try to put it into perspective..

The Wraith think of us as food even if we are alive with kids, mates and families..

We think of animals as food even if they are alive with offspring, mates and families (whatever kind it may be for them)..

Anon
December 6th, 2008, 04:08 AM
Yes, totally wrong. They are an intelligent species, with untold knowledge and skills. Instead of trying to learn about them - understand them - the Lanteans are always looking for ways to kill them. What makes the Lanteans any different from Wraith? Oh, right...the Wraith kill/killed humans in order to EAT - a necessity - but humans, especially Ronon, kill Wraith out of spite, hatred, anger, and vengeance...in other words, the humans are on the verge of committing genocide, wiping out an entire race/species because they hate them, before they have even come to totally understand them.

And keep in mind, they are always talking about killing Todd, or his alliance, even when he's in the process of TRYING to find an alternative to human feeding. That would be like shooting soldiers dead after they have peacefully surrendered to your army. It's just morally reprehensible.


das


the ones that Lorne's and Shep's teams killed were drones. As rodney said, "they are drones, with the powerful control of the wraith just lifted, they're gonna go nuts" (well he said something to that degree). So all they are is mind less, tigers, big green tigers, eating your crew. If tigers were attacking you, would you attack them back. any way you cant understand them. all they have done in their life is listen to orders and feed, they are not intelligent, they are not, understanding. Now the higher wraith are understanding, but otherwise no,

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 04:40 AM
the ones that Lorne's and Shep's teams killed were drones. As rodney said, "they are drones, with the powerful control of the wraith just lifted, they're gonna go nuts" (well he said something to that degree). So all they are is mind less, tigers, big green tigers, eating your crew. If tigers were attacking you, would you attack them back. any way you cant understand them. all they have done in their life is listen to orders and feed, they are not intelligent, they are not, understanding. Now the higher wraith are understanding, but otherwise no,

I have no problem with those Wraith being killed - it was an act of self-defense. Battle, same thing. But on many occasions, the Lanteans have plotted the destruction of the Wraith, based simply on the species dietary requirements. It is a failure to understand the nature of the Wraith, and is not unlike the narrow-mindedness of those who seek - through genocide - to exterminate an entire race because they view them as a threat. Even the Wraith don't seek to wipe out mankind - in fact, under ideal conditions, they manage their human herds well - protecting them from enemy hives, Replicators, disease, and other life-threatening attacks. The Wraith actually want humans to live, while humans want no such thing for the Wraith.

So, killing Wraith in battle I get, but plotting ways to commit genocide against them - no, I cannot condone that.


das

Ouroboros
December 6th, 2008, 05:33 AM
I've been against the way they treated the Wraith since Sheppard stabbed to death the unarmed woman in the second episode when her back was turned. I was willing to let that go until Steve came along though.

"We need to test our completely untested experimental drugs!"

"Durr lets go abduct a sentient being and test them on him!"

"opps he died lol"

dasNdanger
December 6th, 2008, 05:50 AM
I've been against the way they treated the Wraith since Sheppard stabbed to death the unarmed woman in the second episode when her back was turned. I was willing to let that go until Steve came along though.

"We need to test our completely untested experimental drugs!"

"Durr lets go abduct a sentient being and test them on him!"

"opps he died lol"

I love you.


(in a totally non-creepy kinda way)

;)


das

JT Travis
December 6th, 2008, 06:46 AM
Does anyone think that the Wraith might be an allegory for the extremist (emphasis on this word folks, I don't think they are all evil) Muslim world? They are a completely different culture that the good guys alternate between trying to coexist with and trying to destroy. That being said, I have no problems with wiping out the Wraith. Are they any different than bloodthirsty vampires or flesh eating ghouls? Does having advanced technology somehow make them more worthy of survival. It's an us or them situation. A deer can't learn to live with a hungry lion!

Raeth
December 6th, 2008, 07:15 AM
Remember the awesome, totally creepy Wraith chick from the first episode? "All living things must eat."

The Wraith need to kill humans to survive. The fact that some are taking the treatment (Todd's hive) show that at least they are willing to try to live a different way. Throughout the five seasons of the show, we've been shown that the Wraith aren't just an enemy to be shot at; they are an intelligent race with layers to some of their characters. Sometimes we have to kill them in self-defense, if they are trying to kill us specifically, but the whole genocide thing...well, would anyone condone bombing a whole country of people on Earth because we are at war with them? Isn't it more or less the same thing here? Just because they are not of Earth does not mean that they are not living, sentient beings.

mirdin1992
December 6th, 2008, 08:13 AM
I'm with Ronon on this one, I see the Wraith as the enemy and we just need to kill them!

In season 1-2 we just killed them!

but in Allies through now... the line is no longer just black and white.

After the retrovirus changed the wraith to human and the Queen fed on a him, it was all different it made them question weather or not we should use the retro virus.

Now, with the gene therapy... yet once again compassion is over running the fact that THEY KILL HUMANS.

I am sitting here listening to my Mom and brother feel sorry for the wraith saying that what we are doing is wrong, to just kill them off.

All I can think is...they ARE WRAITH. They don't care that they kill you or your whole family, they just cull your world, destroy whole civilizations and now we feel sorry for them???
I agree!
the atlantis expedition forget one thing if all wraith take the gene therapy and they don't need to feed anymore on humans whats to stop them for comiting genocide they have done that to a number of worlds(Sateda to name one) just because they wouldn't alove to be eaten
and my question is that they would alove humans to live because in my view the only thing stoping them is the need to feed:wraithanime11:

Briangate78
December 6th, 2008, 08:35 AM
I'm with Ronon on this one, I see the Wraith as the enemy and we just need to kill them!

In season 1-2 we just killed them!

but in Allies through now... the line is no longer just black and white.

After the retrovirus changed the wraith to human and the Queen fed on a him, it was all different it made them question weather or not we should use the retro virus.

Now, with the gene therapy... yet once again compassion is over running the fact that THEY KILL HUMANS.

I am sitting here listening to my Mom and brother feel sorry for the wraith saying that what we are doing is wrong, to just kill them off.

All I can think is...they ARE WRAITH. They don't care that they kill you or your whole family, they just cull your world, destroy whole civilizations and now we feel sorry for them???

That is why I love this show so much. It leaves a moral question. One minute it is like do we kill all the Wraith like Ronon says, or do we try these other ideas. Well the other ideas has gotten Atlantis into so much hot water. Remember when Ronon yells at Sheppard in "Vengence" telling him he should of just killed Michael and ended it.

Sometimes it seems Ronon is the smart one at times. Is it because he lacks moral and compassion? No, he sees the Wraith as the enemy nothing more. Altough it seems that Sheppard only agreed to send Todd to the Iratus bug planet to only save their skins, I think there is much more to that. Has Sheppard changed his ways or was he just going with this so that they can still have a chance at trying to distripute the Retro-virus to the Wraith. Interesting how Ronon said the Retro-Virus works fine, meaning it takes care of the Wraith. However the others felt is this right?

Atlantis has made the Wraith so dynamic and interesting that it really raises a lot of questions, and it is what makes this show so interesting.

They have not lost the focus of their direction. They are still trying to deal with the Wraith, but in different ways. Now the question is, can they co-exsist. What will the Wraith become if this Retro-Virus is perfected. Atlantis tried to play God once before with Michael, and look where it got them.

This is why Atlantis is dark and has moral issues. This show has become complex like BSG, imo.

GoSpikey
December 6th, 2008, 09:47 AM
This may come to a surprise for you, but the Wraith can still clobber Atlantis if they knew where they were. Even in the mitigated fast-forward in the Season 4 finale nothing of the Earth superior technology could do anything to stop their enemies.

If there's one thing that Earth should've figured out is that if the super technology of the Ancients wasn't enough to defeat the Wraith outright, using their own superior technology to blow up hives left and right isn't going to do it, either. Remember, even the Daedelus was hard-pressed to fighting Michael's cruiser.

Green, because some people don't realise we don't know how many Hives are still out there, definitely considering we know they're organic and can be grown at any time.

Plus, BAMSR shows us that the Wraith WILL COLLABORATE when they have common ground.

So if a common ground is seeking to destroy Atlantis, then heck, they will. And while the Lanteans now have a few extra drones, they haven't got much besides that. They do not constantly have a BC around, and even if they did, it wouldn't do much against a dozen Hives. And we don't even know if it's only a dozen of Hives, anyway. We do NOT want to see the Wraith developing another cloning facility and new ships solely to win another war, because we know what they'll revert to, where we to push their wrong buttons. It's something Atlantis DOES NOT WANT.

So yes, it's indeed stupid to turn against every Hive present at the Asuran fight. If they send out a warning to Hives not present there, the Lanteans are screwed.

Besides, the Asurans were killing way more people in that time frame than those Wraith were, and that's why they decided to take the Replicators out.


HA! If I was Caldwell, I would have blown it away with the first shot. They deliberately were holding themselves back.

Yes, a member of their team was held captive on that ship. Of course they were holding back.

About that whole fight-scene? Don't complain they were holding back. Rather complain about the fact that they wrote that stupid 'let's lower our shields to let our people in' when it totally wasn't necessary, but rather written to fit the script, both the Daedalus and the Cruiser had to have the same kind of damage.

Complain about the fact that in those few seconds that the shields were down, coincidentally the hyperdrive, sublight engines, and weapons had been taken out. What a coincidence. ;)

SerenaSerenity
December 6th, 2008, 09:53 AM
I'm with Ronon on this one, I see the Wraith as the enemy and we just need to kill them!

In season 1-2 we just killed them!

but in Allies through now... the line is no longer just black and white.

After the retrovirus changed the wraith to human and the Queen fed on a him, it was all different it made them question weather or not we should use the retro virus.

Now, with the gene therapy... yet once again compassion is over running the fact that THEY KILL HUMANS.

I am sitting here listening to my Mom and brother feel sorry for the wraith saying that what we are doing is wrong, to just kill them off.

All I can think is...they ARE WRAITH. They don't care that they kill you or your whole family, they just cull your world, destroy whole civilizations and now we feel sorry for them???

As far as I've seen, they eat us. Just as we eat other animals. And in that aspect we aren't really better then them. Because of us, many animals are extinct or on the verge of extinction. And yet some feel justified in killing them for money because they are rare. I mean, they have mates and children. Families as we would call them. And just as we view them, the wraith view us. We are animals to them. I really can't say that I see the Wraith being any different then us. They eat to survive just as we do. I mean, we have an alternative to the meats we eat and yet we still do it. I understand killing in battle. Not against self defense. But wipe them out just to do it? Yeah, totally against that. If they surrender, I don't think we should kill them anyway. I think that would be wrong.

My own personal opinion of course. Nothing against your own opinion. To each their own.

Briangate78
December 6th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Green, because some people don't realise we don't know how many Hives are still out there, definitely considering we know they're organic and can be grown at any time.


I think Atlantis and Earth are going to be shocked in the series finale. Meaning there are a lot of Hives still out there.

I think what Sheppard did for Todd is not going to go unpaid.

The show has not lost it's direction or jumped the shark. The Wraith are still an issue and Atlantis are still trying to find ways to deal with them.

Pandora's_Box
December 6th, 2008, 10:02 AM
A question as old as time; the ethics and morality of war time treatment of one's enemies.

Pacifism and upright morality is all well and good, but when something is trying to eat you, I think you shoot first and ask questions later.

Todd is about the only Wraith actually thinking about his food source's feelings. All the others show no such consideration.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 6th, 2008, 10:10 AM
I think that people tend to forget that Todd is not the face of the Wraith. He does not represent the Wraith collective. The Wraith Queens do. I think people also forget that it's not the Wraith's dependence on humans that makes them evil. It's how they act. The Wraith as a whole are still an evil species. Just like it wasn't the Goauld's need for hosts that made them evil, but the way they acted. And I think that's where the team's, and todd's, plan goes wrong. Keller's retrovirus won't change how they think. If you notice, the Wraith's "we will feed" montra has subsided. Look at their interactions with the Wraith since season 2. It's less about feeding and more about preserving their power base in the galaxy. You cannot point to the existence of Runners, Wraith worshippers, the absence of other advanced races, and the Wraith's annihilation of the Ancients as simply a product of their need to feed. No. The Wraith are evil.

SerenaSerenity
December 6th, 2008, 10:28 AM
A question as old as time; the ethics and morality of war time treatment of one's enemies.

Pacifism and upright morality is all well and good, but when something is trying to eat you, I think you shoot first and ask questions later.

Todd is about the only Wraith actually thinking about his food source's feelings. All the others show no such consideration.

Self defence is one thing though, out right killing, even if one were to surrender? That I do find wrong. Wether we are their food source or not. I just don't feel comfortable with killing off a race who it just so happens for us to be their food source.

We care nothing about the animals we kill and we kill tons. Alot of the times ending up not using all we kill. I just really don't see a difference between them and us. Yes self defence and war should be taken into consideration. But not all out genecide. I would more then likely have to stop watching if that were the case. I just can't see wiping out a whole race as an option. My own personal opinion of course. Nothing against yours. To each their own.

Flyboy
December 6th, 2008, 12:09 PM
Does anyone think that the Wraith might be an allegory for the extremist (emphasis on this word folks, I don't think they are all evil) Muslim world? They are a completely different culture that the good guys alternate between trying to coexist with and trying to destroy. That being said, I have no problems with wiping out the Wraith. Are they any different than bloodthirsty vampires or flesh eating ghouls? Does having advanced technology somehow make them more worthy of survival. It's an us or them situation. A deer can't learn to live with a hungry lion!
Certainly not. The Ori were the allegory for religious extremism, there is no similarity between religious extremists who believe in their cause to a very high level, and space vampires who have to kill humans to survive. One is ideology, the other is biology.

garhkal
December 6th, 2008, 02:25 PM
Just as we kill and eat for our own survival, they are no different. They wanna survive and live just as we do. And if the animals decided to come and wipe us out for killing them, that's the same thing really. But I just don't think that we should wipe out a race because of that. If there is another way, I'm all for it.



Prob with that is look at how we are irl towards any animal who even attacks a human. Does nto matter if it was cause we encroached into its habitat, were playing pranks with its young etc.. we kill it cause it threatened the master race (Humans).... It is the same mentality imo they bring to the wraith. We are best and anything that threatenes us needs to be wiped out!


We care nothing about the animals we kill and we kill tons. Alot of the times ending up not using all we kill.

And in others, we don't even use anything of what we kill..

airrick
December 6th, 2008, 03:27 PM
I think that people tend to forget that Todd is not the face of the Wraith. He does not represent the Wraith collective. The Wraith Queens do. I think people also forget that it's not the Wraith's dependence on humans that makes them evil. It's how they act. You cannot point to the existence of Runners, Wraith worshippers, the absence of other advanced races, and the Wraith's annihilation of the Ancients as simply a product of their need to feed. No. The Wraith are evil.

Good points however even if they werent "evil" killing humans to survive regardless of good or bad isnt going to make everyone smile and like them.. I dont think there would be any friendly way to make your next meal a human on a show about humans.. its the perspective of the show..

If a chicken could watch TV for example, say a show as on about chickens and the humans that cook and eat them.. filmed from the perspective of the chicken.. who would be the bad guy then? The chicken or those that cook and eat them..

kymeric
December 6th, 2008, 06:48 PM
WE dont do anything to the wraith, theyre not real. /slap in the face of reality

Raeth
December 6th, 2008, 07:16 PM
I think that people tend to forget that Todd is not the face of the Wraith. He does not represent the Wraith collective. The Wraith Queens do. I think people also forget that it's not the Wraith's dependence on humans that makes them evil. It's how they act. The Wraith as a whole are still an evil species. Just like it wasn't the Goauld's need for hosts that made them evil, but the way they acted. And I think that's where the team's, and todd's, plan goes wrong. Keller's retrovirus won't change how they think. If you notice, the Wraith's "we will feed" montra has subsided. Look at their interactions with the Wraith since season 2. It's less about feeding and more about preserving their power base in the galaxy. You cannot point to the existence of Runners, Wraith worshippers, the absence of other advanced races, and the Wraith's annihilation of the Ancients as simply a product of their need to feed. No. The Wraith are evil.

This is true. However, not every single Wraith necessarily feels like that. To say that the Wraith are collectively evil because of the actions of only some of them is unfair.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 6th, 2008, 07:52 PM
This is true. However, not every single Wraith necessarily feels like that. To say that the Wraith are collectively evil because of the actions of only some of them is unfair.

Some of them? Reality check! Most of the Wraith act that way. To say that the wraith as a whole are less than malevolent because of the actions of only one Wraith is also unfair.

If the issue was the Wraith dependency on humans, I'm sure they and the Ancients would have worked out some sort of agreement. The Ancients with their intelligence could have come up with something.

airrick
December 6th, 2008, 09:08 PM
WE dont do anything to the wraith, theyre not real. /slap in the face of reality


So true LOL green!

the fifth man
December 6th, 2008, 09:28 PM
At times, things we have done to "helpless" Wraith in Atlantis has made us look bad IMO. But most of the time, we do what we have to against them. They are still the enemy.

Wrath Of Odin
December 6th, 2008, 09:29 PM
I think we all need to ask ourselves here, would we hang out with Hannibal Lecter? okay he's kicked his Cannibalism habit but he's still not a good guy.

The wraith had their chance in this episode after Woolsey ordered Shep and team on board Todds ship. They were perfectly peaceful till Lt. Red Shirt was killed and then they did what they had to, to survive and fair enough too.

I realise the wraith are hardly a faceless evil enemy and that they need to feed on humans to survive, but ask yourself how come they havent come up with a way to live in harmony with the other sentient species of the galaxy, for over 10,000 years they havent had a real enemy to waste resources fighting with. I mean humanity is smart but the wraith are just as smart if not smarter as a species, i'm sure its not a case of there not smart enough. Its only right now Todd wants an edge to win a war just like anyone else in his position. He doesnt want to change, he wants to win, he wants to survive simple as that.

Saying that though, he is an honourable being, giving back shepard his life in his first encounter with him, but that doesnt make him any less evil, just more complicated.

Ouroboros
December 6th, 2008, 10:10 PM
The contrast between the right/wrongness of how they've treated the Wraith actually gets shown fairly well in the ending here. Comparing how Shep treated Todd, (honorably) to how he treated Michael after no mans land (the opposite of honorably).

With Todd they've now got/preserved a potential future ally. With Michael their cruelty to him, even after he'd helped them,turned him back into an enemy and convinced him he was truely alone in the universe, likely playing a huge role in what he eventually became. More importantly though it's something that they never could have justified doing to him had they not treated him as sub-human. If they'd looked at him as deserving of the same sort of respect as a human in his position, like they did Todd, they would have been forced to think through to some sort of solution to the potential security issue other than "lets just try to murder him again".

Briangate78
December 7th, 2008, 09:08 AM
The contrast between the right/wrongness of how they've treated the Wraith actually gets shown fairly well in the ending here. Comparing how Shep treated Todd, (honorably) to how he treated Michael after no mans land (the opposite of honorably).

With Todd they've now got/preserved a potential future ally. With Michael their cruelty to him, even after he'd helped them,turned him back into an enemy and convinced him he was truely alone in the universe, likely playing a huge role in what he eventually became. More importantly though it's something that they never could have justified doing to him had they not treated him as sub-human. If they'd looked at him as deserving of the same sort of respect as a human in his position, like they did Todd, they would have been forced to think through to some sort of solution to the potential security issue other than "lets just try to murder him again".

I think Sheppard learned his lesson with Michael, so he willing to keep up his end of the deal with Todd. OMG, did we just get some character development for Sheppard? :p

Mitchell82
December 7th, 2008, 10:35 AM
I can see both point of view on this being former military. The Wraith are a technologically advanced Wraith bent on our destruction. SO yes lets kill them all before they can kill us! Very logical response right?

However I can also agree with this pov. The Wraith do not simply kill for killings sake. They kill because they have to do so to survive. Now we get drawn into a huge philosophical and moral issue here. Personally I see the way they have gone with us actually allying with them from time to time a good way to explore both aspects. So do I feel that the way we treat them is wrong? Yes and no. Unfortunately things like this are never black and white.

Briangate78
December 7th, 2008, 10:42 AM
I can see both point of view on this being former military. The Wraith are a technologically advanced Wraith bent on our destruction. SO yes lets kill them all before they can kill us! Very logical response right?

However I can also agree with this pov. The Wraith do not simply kill for killings sake. They kill because they have to do so to survive. Now we get drawn into a huge philosophical and moral issue here. Personally I see the way they have gone with us actually allying with them from time to time a good way to explore both aspects. So do I feel that the way we treat them is wrong? Yes and no. Unfortunately things like this are never black and white.

Reminds me a little of the Cylon war in BSG. Yet Marty G says they cannot write those kind of shows. Hmmm maybe they can since they sorta did.

Mitchell82
December 7th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Reminds me a little of the Cylon war in BSG. Yet Marty G says they cannot write those kind of shows. Hmmm maybe they can since they sorta did.

:indeed:

Briangate78
December 7th, 2008, 10:52 AM
:indeed:

Seriously, SGA has always been darker than SG-1, SG-1 was great for the explortation and the finding of new technologies. There was always a constant battle going on of some sort. With SGA you got the wars and battles but there is more depth to the situation. There are more Moral and ethical aspects of SGA. It really makes you think, is this the right call or what? I think SGA has proven to be a very dynamic show and produce some serious dark eps, but they can also produce those comic relief eps like BrainStorm. To me a show with Variety is going to be more successful. Well 5 Seasons is a success.

Mitchell82
December 7th, 2008, 10:56 AM
Seriously, SGA has always been darker than SG-1, SG-1 was great for the explortation and the finding of new technologies. There was always a constant battle going on of some sort. With SGA you got the wars and battles but there is more depth to the situation. There are more Moral and ethical aspects of SGA. It really makes you think, is this the right call or what? I think SGA has proven to be a very dynamic show and produce some serious dark eps, but they can also produce those comic relief eps like BrainStorm. To me a show with Variety is going to be more successful. Well 5 Seasons is a success.

Agreed. I loved SG-1 for the way it incorperated many types of shows into 1, drama, action, comedy, even horror from time to time. I love SGA for it having a darker tone, more character development, and having a more dynamic show.

FallenAngelII
December 7th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Stuff.
The actions of a few (or many) should condemn the entire race?

Just because one or a few hives have gone after the expedition, all Wraith must die?

Raeth
December 7th, 2008, 01:46 PM
Some of them? Reality check! Most of the Wraith act that way. To say that the wraith as a whole are less than malevolent because of the actions of only one Wraith is also unfair.

If the issue was the Wraith dependency on humans, I'm sure they and the Ancients would have worked out some sort of agreement. The Ancients with their intelligence could have come up with something.

Actually, if you compare the amount of Wraith we've seen in the show vs. the amount there are in total, then really, we haven't seen that many. So we don't know if most of the Wraith act that way. It's just most of the ones we've seen up close. Also, just because the leaders of certain hives take certain actions, does not mean all of that group agree with the decision.

Pandora's_Box
December 8th, 2008, 12:16 AM
The actions of a few (or many) should condemn the entire race?

Just because one or a few hives have gone after the expedition, all Wraith must die?

Yes.

Either that or they die because living would mean thousands upon thousands of human lives lost, humanity in Pegasus continuing to live in fear, and with barely a chance to grow as a species.

Take your pick.

TheRandomOne
December 8th, 2008, 05:47 AM
Yes, totally wrong. They are an intelligent species, with untold knowledge and skills. Instead of trying to learn about them - understand them - the Lanteans are always looking for ways to kill them. What makes the Lanteans any different from Wraith? Oh, right...the Wraith kill/killed humans in order to EAT - a necessity

If you came face to face with a Wraith would you just let a Wraith kill you just because your his dinner ? Humans have the same amount of rights to defend themselves just like the Wraith have the rights to eat

Pitry
December 8th, 2008, 09:24 AM
*raises hand* I think it's wrong how humans are treated.

I think humans, especially the highly-educated, highly-trained individuals we see on SGA, are more complex than thinking it's always either kill or be killed and that the only problem with throwing a biological weapon of mass destruction on the wraith is that they don't currently have the means.

jenks
December 8th, 2008, 10:02 AM
It really is a case of kill or be killed though, as every Wraith killed means 1 or more Humans saved. So even if you value Wraith and Human life equally, killing Wraith is still the most humane option. I mean hypothetically, if a Human were born on Earth that couldn't survive on anyother food than Human flesh, what would we do? We sure as hell wouldn't feed it, we sure as hell wouldn't let it go free to kill someone. What we'd do is either lock them and they'd starve to death, or we'd euthanise them. Of course there'd be people trying to cure it, but in the mean time that doesn't mean we'd allow them to kill to survive, and it would be shameful if we did. The situation the expedition are facing is really no different, it's imperative they kill Wraith, it would be unethical not to.

Flyboy
December 8th, 2008, 01:59 PM
Yes.

Either that or they die because living would mean thousands upon thousands of human lives lost, humanity in Pegasus continuing to live in fear, and with barely a chance to grow as a species.

Take your pick.
So basically - they're farmers. Could be worse - they could keep Battery Humans.

I see no reason not to fight the wraith, as has been mentioned, it's about survival. But they're not evil. And frankly, I don't see any reason why a wraith like Todd cannot now be trusted any more or less than a human from another planet.

fumblesmcstupid
December 8th, 2008, 02:35 PM
Stargate opens...... a Dart flies over head people start scream grabbing up their kids trying to run from the dart it sweeps up people, my mom and dad my cousin......me.. I am taken taken back to a hive ship....put in a pod.. I call out to my mom and dad....time passes my pod is opened and a wraith steps up pulls his hand back then Slams it down on my chest..I feel my life drain from me...darkness.!

Over the top?

Flyboy
December 8th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Stargate opens...... a Dart flies over head people start scream grabbing up their kids trying to run from the dart it sweeps up people, my mom and dad my cousin......me.. I am taken taken back to a hive ship....put in a pod.. I call out to my mom and dad....time passes my pod is opened and a wraith steps up pulls his hand back then Slams it down on my chest..I feel my life drain from me...darkness.!

Over the top?
It's that or you're kept on a hive ship from birth until one day you follow your little chum down a corridor. He walks out unscathed, you on the other hand, never walk out again.

FallenAngelII
December 9th, 2008, 02:04 AM
Yes.

Either that or they die because living would mean thousands upon thousands of human lives lost, humanity in Pegasus continuing to live in fear, and with barely a chance to grow as a species.

Take your pick.
They feed because they must. We eat animals because we like it. The Wraith cannot survive on anything but feeding off humans (and Ancients). It's not a preference, it's a compulsion.

If some Wraith wish to work with us for a common goal, like, say, cure them of their need to feed, then there's absolutely no reason not to, just because some other Wraith have gone after the expedition, which was what I was arguing against.

Todd and his people wanted to rid themselves of the need to feed, the goal of the expedition.



I see no reason not to fight the wraith, as has been mentioned, it's about survival. But they're not evil. And frankly, I don't see any reason why a wraith like Todd cannot now be trusted any more or less than a human from another planet.
The "He's a liability" (or whatever they said)-line in "Infection" was ridiculous. Todd has had how many months now since "The Lost Tribe", where he had a falling out with Atlantis and assumed they had betrayed him?

And not a single Wraith has come to Atlantis to destroy it. Obviously, Todd isn't going to betray them anytime soon. And this was when they were at odds with each other. Now, they're contemplating letting him attempt to save himself.

And Richard is all "He's a security risk". Yah right.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 9th, 2008, 02:21 PM
They feed because they must. We eat animals because we like it. The Wraith cannot survive on anything but feeding off humans (and Ancients). It's not a preference, it's a compulsion.

If some Wraith wish to work with us for a common goal, like, say, cure them of their need to feed, then there's absolutely no reason not to, just because some other Wraith have gone after the expedition, which was what I was arguing against.

Todd and his people wanted to rid themselves of the need to feed, the goal of the expedition.


The "He's a liability" (or whatever they said)-line in "Infection" was ridiculous. Todd has had how many months now since "The Lost Tribe", where he had a falling out with Atlantis and assumed they had betrayed him?

And not a single Wraith has come to Atlantis to destroy it. Obviously, Todd isn't going to betray them anytime soon. And this was when they were at odds with each other. Now, they're contemplating letting him attempt to save himself.

And Richard is all "He's a security risk". Yah right.

I agree. However, the Wraith do much more than feed. They also hunt for sport, wipe out races that are advanced. So the majority of the Wraith are in fact bad, but not because they have to feed on humans. And yeah, Todd is a security risk, because he could get captured and information stolen from him (look at Midway).

nx01a
December 9th, 2008, 02:39 PM
As long as the Wraith don't bother us, we don't go looking to destroy them or save the hundreds no doubt culled every day. I think that makes us the bad guys.
When we were limited to railguns, we really had no chance against them. With the Asgard plasma beams, however, and TWO ships in Pegasus in season 4, we could have been wiping them out. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. We could have destroyed every single hive, every cruiser, every facility we came across and forced them to take the original retrovirus and become human or be killed.
I want to see the Infection treatment perfected, Wraith eating regular food again and choosing to eat humans, just like how we eat cows and sheep. The Wraith are an enemy that has a biological imperative to kill us. How much cooler would they be if they killed us because we taste so much better than their other food? :D

naamiaiset
December 9th, 2008, 02:48 PM
The "He's a liability" (or whatever they said)-line in "Infection" was ridiculous. Todd has had how many months now since "The Lost Tribe", where he had a falling out with Atlantis and assumed they had betrayed him?

And not a single Wraith has come to Atlantis to destroy it. Obviously, Todd isn't going to betray them anytime soon. And this was when they were at odds with each other. Now, they're contemplating letting him attempt to save himself.

And Richard is all "He's a security risk". Yah right.
There's always the possibility Todd is biding his time. I agree though, I think if he planned to betray the expedition, he's had numerous opportunities. Plus, it would not make much sense for him to use the therapy on himself/his crew if that's his goal. Although, it wouldn't really surprise me if the writers took that route.

As far as Atlantis' right/wrong treatment of wraith, there doesn't seem to be much of a gray area. Wraith might lose all interest in humans if they were no longer dependant on them, but I doubt that would change their enemy status in the eyes of Atlantis.

Todds worshipper
December 9th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Yes, totally wrong. They are an intelligent species, with untold knowledge and skills. Instead of trying to learn about them - understand them - the Lanteans are always looking for ways to kill them. What makes the Lanteans any different from Wraith? Oh, right...the Wraith kill/killed humans in order to EAT - a necessity - but humans, especially Ronon, kill Wraith out of spite, hatred, anger, and vengeance...in other words, the humans are on the verge of committing genocide, wiping out an entire race/species because they hate them, before they have even come to totally understand them.

And keep in mind, they are always talking about killing Todd, or his alliance, even when he's in the process of TRYING to find an alternative to human feeding. That would be like shooting soldiers dead after they have peacefully surrendered to your army. It's just morally reprehensible.


das

I agree completely. Especially in Season 5. There's one scene in Infection where Todd is more human than Sheppard.

pcat
December 9th, 2008, 05:11 PM
I see a clear distinction between needind to feed and being evil. I have never had a conversation with a cow or any other animal that I would consider eating. I have never been show art, or science, or philosophical discussions of animals. If a talking cows was found that could put forth it's point of view and value to the universe. I would NOT eat it.

It was really about the need to feed. They could minimize the violence and "Farm" there food. It has even been shown that they can clone with sufficent power. They could clone humans and store them for later use. They could also engineer them to be brain dead to minimze suffering. These are the acts of a compassionate species that"just needs to eat".

Then we have wraith. Terror, fear, murder, sport...

Also, the only reason Todd was interested in the treatment was for a competitive advantage over other wraith. Think of the position he would be in if his troops did not waist time collection human cattle. Minimize resistance (from Atlantis and others), they could be self-sufficient and guarentee the safety of there foods (Michaels drug is still out there). I stress that Todd is out for his own benefit. This doe not have to be a bad thing. It is nature to look out for your interests. This does not meen that you have to do it at the expense of others (whick is what most wraith do). Todd is the exception that he can see past his own immediate needs and see's the value in co-existing (wi=hile still putting himself and wraith wraith first)

I see Todd as the kind of wraith a long term mutually beneficial relationship/alliance could be build. The first step would be realizing the limitations of the agreement and his nature while keeping an open mind. (trust but verify type of mentaility)

Ltcolshepjumper
December 9th, 2008, 05:45 PM
I see a clear distinction between needind to feed and being evil. I have never had a conversation with a cow or any other animal that I would consider eating. I have never been show art, or science, or philosophical discussions of animals. If a talking cows was found that could put forth it's point of view and value to the universe. I would NOT eat it.

It was really about the need to feed. They could minimize the violence and "Farm" there food. It has even been shown that they can clone with sufficent power. They could clone humans and store them for later use. They could also engineer them to be brain dead to minimze suffering. These are the acts of a compassionate species that"just needs to eat".

Then we have wraith. Terror, fear, murder, sport...

Also, the only reason Todd was interested in the treatment was for a competitive advantage over other wraith. Think of the position he would be in if his troops did not waist time collection human cattle. Minimize resistance (from Atlantis and others), they could be self-sufficient and guarentee the safety of there foods (Michaels drug is still out there). I stress that Todd is out for his own benefit. This doe not have to be a bad thing. It is nature to look out for your interests. This does not meen that you have to do it at the expense of others (whick is what most wraith do). Todd is the exception that he can see past his own immediate needs and see's the value in co-existing (wi=hile still putting himself and wraith wraith first)

I see Todd as the kind of wraith a long term mutually beneficial relationship/alliance could be build. The first step would be realizing the limitations of the agreement and his nature while keeping an open mind. (trust but verify type of mentaility)

Well, there is more to the Wraith than just feeding. They control the galaxy, and destroyed races that were of no benefit to them. The Wraith are still evil. Todd is just one exception. Yes, of course, you will always have people who are just violent and have no conscience. But humanity as a whole is not like that. The Wraith are. Todd had a long time to get out of the Wraith mindset. Remember, he was held prisoner by Koyla for a long time. If all the wraith cared about was feeding, they wouldn't have runners or worshippers. In Seasons 1 and 2, the Wraith were portrayed as being primarily hunger-driven. Now, given episodes like The Queen, Broken Ties, and Spoils of War, the Wraith are known to be equally power-driven. It would also be very hard for me to eat something I knew could talk or at least communicate to me, in a way that I could understand. The Wraith wiped out many of the nonhuman advanced races that existed in Pegasus, including the Ancients. Why? Because they wanted the galaxy, to control and for the humans.

Even if the Wraith received the treatment and it worked, they'd still try to dominate the galaxy and prevent advanced races from developing. The only thing that would be different would be that they wouldn't feed on humans. They might even still try to get to Earth, or try to restore their feeding ability without eliminating their digestive systems.

pcat
December 9th, 2008, 06:02 PM
I totally agree. The wraith have been shown to be evil through there actions, not just eating people.

the point I was making was that just needing to eat people would not justify there actions. It is everything else that makes them evil, including knowing that there food source is intelligent.

jenks
December 9th, 2008, 08:19 PM
I am yet to witness the Wraith do anything more evil than Human beings have been known to do to each other on Earth.

Todd's Pet
December 10th, 2008, 05:47 AM
I am yet to witness the Wraith do anything more evil than Human beings have been known to do to each other on Earth.
And I think that just about sums it all up.
Much respect for that susinct comment!

Heqet
December 10th, 2008, 06:12 AM
Saying that we should exterminate every Wraith in existence because they need to feed on humans to survive is like saying we should kill every tiger on earth because they need to hunt other animals. It doesn't make any sense. It is the way of nature, and if humans are not at the top of the food chain, then so be it. It does not excuse anything done to the Wraith.

FallenAngelII
December 10th, 2008, 10:44 AM
I agree. However, the Wraith do much more than feed. They also hunt for sport
So do humans. Also, they barely hunt. When Ronon was saved, there were only 7 runners. So it's not like the entire race hunts for sport or that they do it very often. It's not even common since, let's repeat, there were only seven runners. That's seven runners for close to sixty hives (at that point)!

Now how many humans hunt for sport vs. 7 billion humans again?

It's practiced by very few, as opposed to humans hunting animals for sport, which I hear is pretty common, with fathers taking their prepubescent sons out into the woods to do.


wipe out races that are advanced.
Self-preservation. If you could only survive on cows and a group of cows suddenly became too dangerous to be kept alive, say they advanced to such a stage where they invent cow machine guns or if they contract a deadly disease, what would you do?

You kill them all so that you can survive. Heck, humans do it all the time!

Mad cow disease, avian flu, whatever. A group of animals contract a disease which could somehow hurt humans should we ingest their meat? We kill them and burn their bodies!

Why? Is it to save the other cows, chickens and whatnot? No. It's so that they won't spread their diseases to other animals, thus tainting our food supply. It's happening right now in Norway, in fact.

Some kind of worm is infesting a flock of foxes and some hunter has petitioned the government to kill them all because the worms can spread to man's best friend, the dog. One dog has reportedly already contracted it! Horrible, horrible!

Now, if it had been a flock of, I don't know, seagulls, whose disease was only deadly to seagulls, would anyone have cared?

And we don't even have to eat meat.

Wraith have to feed to survive. It's their only option. So it's self-preservation (and justified such) to kill off entire planets when they grow advanced enough to challenge the Wraith.


So the majority of the Wraith are in fact bad
Because a select few hunt for sport (because I just invalidated all of your arguments besides the sports one)?


And yeah, Todd is a security risk, because he could get captured and information stolen from him (look at Midway).
So is any human with information regarding Atlantis. He's no more a security risk than any of them. In fact, he's much less of one since he's so powerful at the moment, he's much less likely to get captured or anything.

Introspection, people! The majority of "crimes" users here on Gateworld accuse the Wraith of is true for humans as well and it's much worse for us to commit said "crimes" since we're not dependent on animals to survive!

Sure, it'd be more of a hassle to eat vegetarian/vegan and take vitamin supplements, but it'd be just that, more of a hassle. We could do it.

The Wraith can't. Anything "bad" they do to their food is just in the name of self-preservation. People just need to analyze the situation a bit more. The writers actually did something right in characterizing the Wraith the way they did. They're no true villains who kill just for fun. In fact, we've never actually seen any Wraith kill just for fun.

They're villains in some aspects, yes. They are enemies of humans, yes. But they're no Goa'uld, Ori or Replicators (or Asuran). But some people seem to read pure malice into anything they ever do, judging them as evil animals who all need to die.

Flyboy
December 10th, 2008, 12:21 PM
Well said.

But of course, people will always see them as villains because they're space vampires (prejudice much?). I'd argue that actually, the wraith are also being faced with a small insurgent group of their free range live stock. Of course they're going to want to wipe the Atlantis team out. Them chickens are up to summing!

MIZA
December 10th, 2008, 12:24 PM
well they are trying to kill us??



there is nothing to really reason with them there ?

pcat
December 10th, 2008, 12:40 PM
A quick note.

The Wraith have been eating and torturing humans for atleast 100,00 years with no real changes in patterns

Humans a few thousand years of recorded his with marked progression and evolution of habits and societal trates (hunt and gather vs raising live stock and growing crops, definition of acceptable treatment has evolved in all walks of live.) While humans are far from perfect, there is a clear trend to improve our presence on this planet and how we interact with each other (individual nations -> formation of the UN, world court, etc)

To be clear I am 100% in the Atlantis camp. Wraith have shown themselfs to be a clear an present threat to all of humanity. Todd, while having some admiral traits for a wraith, has shown time and time again to be out for himself (Stealing the treament, using teyla as a false queen to cement his own poer, stealing ZPM to power the clone device, Stealing the D to solve a problem that faced both human and wraith [he had absolutely no proof the Atlantis was involved]

Flyboy
December 10th, 2008, 02:18 PM
A quick note.

The Wraith have been eating and torturing humans for atleast 100,00 years with no real changes in patterns

Humans a few thousand years of recorded his with marked progression and evolution of habits and societal trates (hunt and gather vs raising live stock and growing crops, definition of acceptable treatment has evolved in all walks of live.) While humans are far from perfect, there is a clear trend to improve our presence on this planet and how we interact with each other (individual nations -> formation of the UN, world court, etc)

To be clear I am 100% in the Atlantis camp. Wraith have shown themselfs to be a clear an present threat to all of humanity. Todd, while having some admiral traits for a wraith, has shown time and time again to be out for himself (Stealing the treament, using teyla as a false queen to cement his own poer, stealing ZPM to power the clone device, Stealing the D to solve a problem that faced both human and wraith [he had absolutely no proof the Atlantis was involved]
The wraith don't need a UN. Up until the food shortage they didn't really have inter-faction wars.

Crazedwraith
December 10th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Just a thought, on the Wraith aren't evil; they have to eat humans! They're better than us because we eat animals when we don't have to.

1)We're sapient; animals are not. There is an important distinction.

2) With their level of technology; the wraith in no way have to swoop down on innocent humans in darts and cull them for food. They have giant cloning facilities. They could clone their food. Clone a bunch of brain dead humans to eat. All they would have to do to acheive this was negotiate with the Ancient for ZPMs to clone food of themselves. They didn't they attempted genocide on the Ancients instead.

ciannwn
December 10th, 2008, 04:57 PM
I think it's wrong how the show treats the Wraith. It seems that SGA has to be about running around with guns and big explosions to make Sheppard and co. look heroic. This results in endless excuses to make the Wraith cannon fodder. Why couldn't Keller's treatment have worked properly so Todd could be leading a faction of Wraith who eat normal food? Oh, of course - no excuse to slaughter yet more Wraith in this episode.

Ouroboros
December 10th, 2008, 07:06 PM
The wraith don't need a UN. Up until the food shortage they didn't really have inter-faction wars.

That's also an interesting point to be made in regard to the whole question of them being evil or not. People always try to base their judgements of this on how they interact with their prey, humans. Oh that Wraith scared that human before he ate him, that one seemed to enjoy killing that human etc. This is really to be expected. Humans are a prey/food animal to them. If you were to judge humans similarly based solely on how we interact with the deer hunters shoot, or the cows slaughterhouse workers slaughter then I doubt very much we would come off looking any better.

When you look at how the Wraith treat each other though you get a whole different picture. Up until recently it seems as if their entire species lived completely at peace with one another. They were able to create a galaxy spanning civilization where all the members agreed to cooperate for the good of all the others, hibernating for hundreds of years to replenish food sources so they could all survive, and somehow no one broke the deal for millenia. It's hard for me to imagine humans pulling off something similar on that kind of scale and with the kind of life or death stakes the Wraith faced.

Their society also seems largely if not completely devoid of any kind of Wraith on Wraith crime that isn't war related.

Jackie
December 10th, 2008, 07:22 PM
The humane part of my being dictates to try and solve the issue so both species can live side by side in a utopia society.

But the reality of it is if something is trying to hurt me or my family I'm gonna kill it!

And since the wraith are more advanced technology wise than us, see us as nothing more than food and have a history of back stabbing.

I say nuke 'em.

NoobTau'ri
December 10th, 2008, 09:02 PM
If you were to judge humans similarly based solely on how we interact with the deer hunters shoot, or the cows slaughterhouse workers slaughter then I doubt very much we would come off looking any better.

Yes, but deers and cows are not sentient whilst Humans are. I don't eat meat because the Human digestive system was not designed to handle it properly, but even if meat were perfectly ok for Human physiology I'm still not sure I would eat meat. If I absolutely had to kill sentients to survive, I would committ suicide as I wouldn't be able to live with myself. If people with conscience refuse to eat even non-sentients, then imagine how they would feel about eating sentients?


When you look at how the Wraith treat each other though you get a whole different picture. Up until recently it seems as if their entire species lived completely at peace with one another. They were able to create a galaxy spanning civilization where all the members agreed to cooperate for the good of all the others, hibernating for hundreds of years to replenish food sources so they could all survive, and somehow no one broke the deal for millenia. It's hard for me to imagine humans pulling off something similar on that kind of scale and with the kind of life or death stakes the Wraith faced.

How is this noble? They allow Humans to breed again only so that they can be killed again. Those Humans of Pegasus are born only so that they can sustain the Wraith. And they lived in peace with one another? Lmao...what about the terror they inflict on Humans? It is incredible that they in 10,000 years never attempted to find a "Humane" substitute for Humans, even though there are some Wraiths, like the keeper and her cronies, that were awake at all times.


Their society also seems largely if not completely devoid of any kind of Wraith on Wraith crime that isn't war related.

During the 1930s and WWII, the Nazi Germans had an extremely low rate of crime of German against German, and yet they were rounding up and gasing Jews. I don't think the way Wraith treat each other make up for the way they treat Humans; it actually makes them more odious in my eyes, in the same way that a racist treating his kin kindly while discriminating against those not of his race makes him even more odious.

FallenAngelII
December 10th, 2008, 09:38 PM
The Wraith have been eating and torturing humans for atleast 100,00 years with no real changes in patterns
I'm sorry, they have been torturing humans for 10.000 years? I'd like some sourcing for that "fact". Since when do the Wraith regularly torture humans randomly? Heck, since when do they torture at all?

Because of that one episode where the keeper interrogated Sumner, they now torture humans as some kind of regular practice?


Humans a few thousand years of recorded his with marked progression and evolution of habits and societal trates (hunt and gather vs raising live stock and growing crops, definition of acceptable treatment has evolved in all walks of live.) While humans are far from perfect, there is a clear trend to improve our presence on this planet and how we interact with each other (individual nations -> formation of the UN, world court, etc)
Wah, wah, humans do not have to eat meat to survive, yet we do. The Wraith have to feed off of humans. It would be stupid for them to learn to sympathize with their food.

"Mom, I wanna be a vegetarian!" - "What are you, nuts? You'll die within a week or two!"

Sympathizing with or seeing humans as anything less than livestock could be fatal. If you can no longer stand to feed, you die.


Todd, while having some admiral traits for a wraith, has shown time and time again to be out for himself (Stealing the treament, using teyla as a false queen to cement his own poer, stealing ZPM to power the clone device, Stealing the D to solve a problem that faced both human and wraith [he had absolutely no proof the Atlantis was involved]
I'm sorry, because Todd has shown himself to not be doing what he does out of the goodness of his heart, he has to die?

He's shown himself to be trustworthy, not ratting Atlantis out even after having a fallout with them. Even as an enemy, he didn't tell anyone about Atlantis' whereabouts!

He used Teyla to take over the Queen's hives, but look at what he did after. He tried to use the treatment, just as agreed on. So it's not like just wanted power to take down Atlantis. Eventually, he would've talked the entire alliance into taking the treatment. For selfish reasons? Probably.

But since when is it a crime to be selfish? Since when is it a crime to not risk your life just because?

He had absolutely no proof Atlantis was involved, but the device was on Atlantis (I'm assuming he knew this). And it required the Ancient gene + knowledge to start up, so he assumed it was Atlantis. Was he correct? No.

Should he die for making that false assumption? Also no!

Lord batchi ball
December 10th, 2008, 10:14 PM
I don't think its worng since the Wraith treat there own kind in the same way.

Crazedwraith
December 11th, 2008, 03:20 AM
Wah, wah, humans do not have to eat meat to survive, yet we do. The Wraith have to feed off of humans. It would be stupid for them to learn to sympathize with their food.

"Mom, I wanna be a vegetarian!" - "What are you, nuts? You'll die within a week or two!"

Sympathizing with or seeing humans as anything less than livestock could be fatal. If you can no longer stand to feed, you die.

Yes, if they only had giant cloning facilities, that would enable them to grow their own food, with some tweaking into completely brain dead vegetables.

Oh wait... They do

Wraith don't need to terrorise the galaxy and cull the peoples that inhabit it. All they had to do was 10,00 years ago make a deal with the ancients: You give us ZPMs to clone ourselves food: We won't war with you to the edge of extinction. Sound good?

ciannwn
December 11th, 2008, 03:28 AM
I don't think its worng since the Wraith treat there own kind in the same way.

Going by that logic it's OK for Wraith to eat humans, then. Humans commit genocide and other atrocities against their own kind. Then there's the wars that humans have fought for thousands of years - evidence goes back to Neolithic times for organised warfare.

http://eserver.org/history/neolithic-war.txt

Finally there have been murders and violent crimes throughout history too.

The Stargate Earth is supposed to be our Earth and we know there are wars on it because Sheppard was in Afghanistan.

PS:


Wraith don't need to terrorise the galaxy and cull the peoples that inhabit it. All they had to do was 10,00 years ago make a deal with the ancients: You give us ZPMs to clone ourselves food: We won't war with you to the edge of extinction. Sound good?

Posted in from another topic because it's relevant here.

We have no idea what happened where the failed negotiation was concerned because TPTB never bothered to tell us. They just wanted some excuse for the Wraith to go to war with the Lanteans so the latter would leave Atlantis for the expedition to find. Everything was left as vague as possible with just a couple of lines from Lantean sources which can hardly be relied on for objectivity.

As for the topic title, 'we' haven't done anything to the Wraith because we're viewers watching it all happen on TV. The writers are the ones who have treated the Wraith badly. A show like Star Trek would have had Todd and his faction eating normal food a long time ago and there'd have been a Wraith story arc where he was trying to get the others to adopt the new lifestyle. All that we get in SGA, though, are pathetic excuses for the expedition members to slaughter Wraith by the dozen because heroism is defined by how many 'bad guys' the main characters can shoot or blow up.

'Infectiion' just made me feel disgusted by SGA's approach. Why did Todd and his crew get a disease when Michael managed to genetically alter himself without any ill effects? The obvious answer to that is because it provided a scenario where Sheppard and co were attacked by crazed drones so they could shoot them.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Yes, if they only had giant cloning facilities, that would enable them to grow their own food, with some tweaking into completely brain dead vegetables.
Did you see how that cloning facility worked? It wasn't "Stick some DNA into it and watch it go". It was designed specifically to clone Wraith. Who knows, maybe they did try to clone humans, only it didn't work.

We know they have scientists working on ways to "improve" the feeding process. If cloning was viable, they probably would've been doing it, especially now when they are starving.

What can I say? The writers not thinking about it? Who knows.

The PTB just leave too many plot holes. The Wraith are not stupid (unless they are facing the Atlantis expedition in battle, then all bets are off). There's no reason not to clone their livestock, especially at the current moment, when they are starving and dying.

But they don't. So either they are complete idiots with a death wish or it doesn't work. Or the show has bad writers. Take your pick.

Crazedwraith
December 11th, 2008, 07:09 AM
The PTB just leave too many plot holes. The Wraith are not stupid (unless they are facing the Atlantis expedition in battle, then all bets are off). There's no reason not to clone their livestock, especially at the current moment, when they are starving and dying.

Lack of power. They need ZPMs to clone people in any significant quantities, hence why Todd stole one from the Asurans.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 07:49 AM
Lack of power. They need ZPMs to clone people in any significant quantities, hence why Todd stole one from the Asurans.
To clone more Wraith. He didn't clone a single human, despite being short on food.

Tell me, if Todd is so smart, why didn't he clone some humans which were safe for consumption? There has been zero indication of the machine being able to mass clone humans.

I also noticed how you conveniently didn't address a single one of the issues I raised against your case.

ciannwn
December 11th, 2008, 08:02 AM
But they don't. So either they are complete idiots with a death wish or it doesn't work. Or the show has bad writers. Take your pick.

I pick bad writers who just throw in anything which suits a particular story even if it doesn't make sense when added to what's gone before. The Travellers are an example of this.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/405.shtml

But the problem with Atlantis in the Pegasus Galaxy is we said that whenever a race would get technologically advanced the Wraith would come in and wipe them out. So there was never opportunity for a race to reach that level.

"So we decided, actually there is a way: We'll just put them in ships. And so there's an armada of ships that go from planet to planet.

All that we got in the way of Traveller history is that they used to have the resources to build new ships but don't any more. When did these people become a space faring race? How did they manage to build ships without the Wraith noticing their shipyards? I doubt if we'll ever get the answers to such questions because TPTB just wanted a technologically advanced race and didn't bother working out the details.

Crazedwraith
December 11th, 2008, 08:04 AM
To clone more Wraith. He didn't clone a single human, despite being short on food.
When has Todd been shown to be lacking in food? He wanted to grow a super duper new army. He must have had a way too feed them.



Tell me, if Todd is so smart, why didn't he clone some humans which were safe for consumption? There has been zero indication of the machine being able to mass clone humans.
Stargate villains behaving stupidly? Say it ain't so.



I also noticed how you conveniently didn't address a single one of the issues I raised against your case.
What issues? You basically said "They haven't so they can't" to which I provided a reason why they couldn't lack of power.

Also you citied a lack of prove the device can clone humans. We know human cloning is well within Wraith capabillities. To the extent they can magically give clones all the memories of the original. Ref: The Kindred.

Ouroboros
December 11th, 2008, 08:31 AM
Yes, but deers and cows are not sentient whilst Humans are. I don't eat meat because the Human digestive system was not designed to handle it properly, but even if meat were perfectly ok for Human physiology I'm still not sure I would eat meat. If I absolutely had to kill sentients to survive, I would committ suicide as I wouldn't be able to live with myself. If people with conscience refuse to eat even non-sentients, then imagine how they would feel about eating sentients?

Their species evolved to prey on humans and apparently humans alone so it was never really a matter of choice for them the way it is for vegetarian humans. That's the reason why psychologically they can't view humans as equals and likely don't even have the same sort of concept of sentient/non sentient that humans do. That concept itself is entirely a human invention used to elevate ourselves above the animals we eat/exploit for our needs. I have no doubt that their society has created something similar. Something which morally places Wraith above humans the same way we place ourselves above other animals. They could even use the same sort of logic if they wanted to. Most of the "we're sentient they're not" type of reasoning for viewing humans as superior to animals centers around intelligence and societal achievements. They could likewise point to their own technological and physical superiority to justify themselves as having the same right to abuse and consume humans as we do to abuse and consume animals. The easier way to do it would be to point to their immortality though. A human is going to die anyway, so what does it matter if he dies a few years sooner to feed a Wraith who'll live forever so long as he's fed? I'm not presenting these as my own viewpoints here but this is the sort of things they could easily come up with to justify their behaviour much the same way we do our behaviour toward animals. We created the concept of sentient/non sentient and then assigned this quality of sentience that we've decided we have and they don't supreme value in order to elevate ourselves as superior to them.


How is this noble? They allow Humans to breed again only so that they can be killed again. Those Humans of Pegasus are born only so that they can sustain the Wraith. And they lived in peace with one another? Lmao...what about the terror they inflict on Humans? It is incredible that they in 10,000 years never attempted to find a "Humane" substitute for Humans, even though there are some Wraiths, like the keeper and her cronies, that were awake at all times.

You're looking at it from the perspective of prey interaction still. They're never going to be nice to their prey. Empathising with the prey is anathema to the survival of any predator. I brought up their interactions with each other because if we could see that in addition to being brutal and dickish to humans they were also brutal and dickish to each other then that would suggest that they're just brutal dicks in general. We don't really see that though, not until very recetly in some isolated cases, so it shows us that their behaviour has more to do with the fact that they simply don't regard humans as equal, which is udnerstandable given the consequences of doing so to their survival. Since this has a very clear and obvious reasoning behind it, dehumanizing and abusing the prey makes it far easier to kill them on a regular basis which is what's needed for survival, it offers a better explanation for their behaviour than just "they're evil". We can see from their interactions with each other, where the whole predator/prey pressure isn't an issue, that if they didn't need to eat humans to survive they'd likely be a largely benign and peaceful species that was remarkably good at cooperating with each other. It's not some fundamental part of their nature to be abusive dicks to everyone in other words, it's just the inevitable result of having to regularly kill people in order to live that causes them to, predictably, be dicks to those said people.


During the 1930s and WWII, the Nazi Germans had an extremely low rate of crime of German against German, and yet they were rounding up and gasing Jews. I don't think the way Wraith treat each other make up for the way they treat Humans; it actually makes them more odious in my eyes, in the same way that a racist treating his kin kindly while discriminating against those not of his race makes him even more odious.

In neither of those cases though are the abuses of the abuser fundamentally necessary to their basic survival the way it is for the Wraith. Nazi's and racists aren't each confronted with a painful and inevitable personal death by starvation if they decide to not act racist and/or not kill people. They do those things because they choose to not because they have to.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 08:50 AM
When has Todd been shown to be lacking in food? He wanted to grow a super duper new army. He must have had a way too feed them.
Because the Wraith in general were suffering from a lack of food? Why would Todd magically be special?


Stargate villains behaving stupidly? Say it ain't so.
Todd is not a villain. He's kinda an anti-hero.


What issues? You basically said "They haven't so they can't" to which I provided a reason why they couldn't lack of power.
* Did you see how that cloning facility worked? It wasn't "Stick some DNA into it and watch it go".
* We know they have scientists working on ways to "improve" the feeding process. If cloning was viable, they probably would've been doing it, especially now when they are starving.
* The PTB just leave too many plot holes. The Wraith are not stupid (unless they are facing the Atlantis expedition in battle, then all bets are off). There's no reason not to clone their livestock, especially at the current moment, when they are starving and dying.

Even if takes a lot of energy, if humans can build Nahquadah generators, I'm perfectly confident the Wraith can build energy sources of the same level (or better). It might not be enough to constantly churn out humans, but why not clone at least a few now that your food supply is tainted and feeding could result in death?

If it's possible, why not head for a cloning facility and clone just a few safe clones for at least the Queen and Hive leaders to feed on without fear of death?


Also you citied a lack of prove the device can clone humans. We know human cloning is well within Wraith capabillities. To the extent they can magically give clones all the memories of the original. Ref: The Kindred.
We know Michael can do it. Also, did you happen to notice how clone!Carson was dying without constant dosage of some drug? Who knows kind of side effects that would have on him as a food source (if he hadn't received the Hoffan inoculation).

Michael is also able to create Evil Hybrids. All Wraith must be capable of this, right? Hey, Apophis had a personal shield. Pray tell, why didn't all Goa'uld have this? Just because one member of a race comes up with something doesn't mean all members of that race can do it.

Because it requires a lot of research to perfect human cloning. Maybe they put down research into it but deemed in unviable... especially since the best Michael could do was a clone that would die on its own within weeks without a constant dosage of drugs.

Crazedwraith
December 11th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Because the Wraith in general were suffering from a lack of food? Why would Todd magically be special?
There's not enough food to go around all the hives yes but there's never been any indication Todd's Alliance is going short in the food department. They're presumably hanging on to enough territory to feed themselves, while other hives are going hungry because they can't challenge the Alliance for food.



Todd is not a villain. He's kinda an anti-hero.
Indeed but we're not talking about Todd as an individual but of the wraith as a species and about the claim that the wraith aren't evil, they're just trying to feed.



* Did you see how that cloning facility worked? It wasn't "Stick some DNA into it and watch it go".
* We know they have scientists working on ways to "improve" the feeding process. If cloning was viable, they probably would've been doing it, especially now when they are starving.
* The PTB just leave too many plot holes. The Wraith are not stupid (unless they are facing the Atlantis expedition in battle, then all bets are off). There's no reason not to clone their livestock, especially at the current moment, when they are starving and dying.
Except for that nagging lack of power.



Even if takes a lot of energy, if humans can build Nahquadah generators, I'm perfectly confident the Wraith can build energy sources of the same level (or better). It might not be enough to constantly churn out humans, but why not clone at least a few now that your food supply is tainted and feeding could result in death?

If it's possible, why not head for a cloning facility and clone just a few safe clones for at least the Queen and Hive leaders to feed on without fear of death?

Possibly, but then the facillities they have are set up to clone huge batches at once, for which they need a ZPM level power source. They may not be able to churn out smaller batches the device might have an initialisation energy so high you need a ZPM to even get the thing running.


We know Michael can do it. Also, did you happen to notice how clone!Carson was dying without constant dosage of some drug? Who knows kind of side effects that would have on him as a food source (if he hadn't received the Hoffan inoculation).
Micheal can do it,. Micheal who is a wraith, working entirely off a base of wraith knowledge and technology. Where he going to magically learn to clone humans when he gets chucked out of the Wraith collective and is scrounging a living for himself?

Micheal who had bugger all in the way resources, managed to do it. Why would it be so hard for a wraith with the full resources of an entire hive to do?



Michael is also able to create Evil Hybrids. All Wraith must be capable of this, right?
Why not? The Wraith have the whole racial purity thing going; they just don't want to make hybrids. They're not incapable of it.



Because it requires a lot of research to perfect human cloning. Maybe they put down research into it but deemed in unviable... especially since the best Michael could do was a clone that would die on its own within weeks without a constant dosage of drugs.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 10:41 AM
There's not enough food to go around all the hives yes but there's never been any indication Todd's Alliance is going short in the food department. They're presumably hanging on to enough territory to feed themselves, while other hives are going hungry because they can't challenge the Alliance for food.
Except he didn't have that alliance when he stole the ZPMs. He was starving just like anyone else.


Except for that nagging lack of power.
To mass produce millions of humans, yes. Not Todd had 3 ZPMs (or however many he stole). What did he do? Not attempt to clone a single human but planning to mass produce even more mouths to feed in order to get an advantage in the civil war.

Also, what about when the Ancient first deserted Pegasus? There were ZPMs coming out of the galaxy's wazoo. There had to be. How else could the Wraith keep mass producing more and more troops and ships to besiege Atlantis?

So once the Ancients were gone, there were lots of Wraith with many ZPMs left to spare (presumably). No human cloning them (that we know of), no human cloning now.

There has been absolutely no mention of the cloning facility being able to clone humans. Why assume they can and that the Wraith just choose not to?


Possibly, but then the facillities they have are set up to clone huge batches at once, for which they need a ZPM level power source.
So the Wraith built themselves a facility which can only clone huge batches and which can only be powered by ZPMs? Great thinking.


They may not be able to churn out smaller batches the device might have an initialisation energy so high you need a ZPM to even get the thing running.
The Wraith can manufacture Hive ships, which require tons of energy to nurture. The Wraith have fly around in space in their Hives indefinitely. So they probably have some very capable power sources.


Micheal can do it,. Micheal who is a wraith, working entirely off a base of wraith knowledge and technology. Where he going to magically learn to clone humans when he gets chucked out of the Wraith collective and is scrounging a living for himself?
Michael put extra time, resources and effort into it. Michael was also most probably a scientist by trade. And he still got an imperfect result. clone!Beckett would die without constant treatment. What would that do the feeding process?

Also, are you saying the Wraith can clone single humans without utilizing huge quantities of energy (at least not huge enough to require ZPMs) but simply choose not to despite civil war and famine?


Micheal who had bugger all in the way resources, managed to do it. Why would it be so hard for a wraith with the full resources of an entire hive to do?
Because maybe he discovered something the others did not.


Why not? The Wraith have the whole racial purity thing going; they just don't want to make hybrids. They're not incapable of it.
Michael's hybrids are better than the Wraith, though. The Wraith don't like half-humans because they view humans are bad. But a Wraith with Wraith strength, powers and without the need to feed? They'd probably be up for that.

Also, why did you not reply to the part where I point out that Michael's human clones are flawed?

I contend that it's not possible that the Wraith can clone humans that are viable for Wraith consumption, yet they choose not to despite a civil war breaking out due to food shortage and famine.

Because that would just be ridiculous.

Crazedwraith
December 11th, 2008, 01:26 PM
I'm going to have to concede that if they could have they probably would have by now. Maybe Carson's clone can't actually sustain wraith as well as ordinary humans. Maybe clones just aren't tasty enough though.

Although here's a thought we know they don't have any problem cloning or eating fellow wraith? Why not make a few extra drones to snack on in emergencies?

pcat
December 11th, 2008, 01:39 PM
There is no proof that Michael's clones are flawed. There is proof that he introduced a flaw to keep carson in line and manageable (if he escapes, he dies).

Just beacuse the conlener was not used for humans, it means the process won't work for humans? I would assume in the being they did not need to clone humans since they were litterally all around ready to be picked and eaten fresh. Once there was a food shortage, they probably could have started cloning humans, but when they had the power required to operate the machine they chose soldiers. who knows, if atlantis had not destroyed it, they may have turned to human cloning to feed the new troops (if todd was in charge, otherwise detroy the current queen would have destroyed the other wriath and taken the feeding grounds)

garhkal
December 11th, 2008, 02:47 PM
They have giant cloning facilities. They could clone their food. Clone a bunch of brain dead humans to eat. All they would have to do to acheive this was negotiate with the Ancient for ZPMs to clone food of themselves. They didn't they attempted genocide on the Ancients instead.

Do we know whether they would even gain any "nutrition" that way?? Would a clone have the necessary life force for consuming?


Their society also seems largely if not completely devoid of any kind of Wraith on Wraith crime that isn't war related.

Very true, but look at them now, and it is like us humans.. Killin one another over resources.


Yes, but deers and cows are not sentient whilst Humans are.

Only cause WE humans deem what is and is not sentient. To wraiths we are not. Same as gou'ald... to them humans are cattle as sheep are to us.


If it's possible, why not head for a cloning facility and clone just a few safe clones for at least the Queen and Hive leaders to feed on without fear of death?

If that was possible, why would they not have already used it so they would not have even had to war with one another over diminishing human supplies... BECAUSE for all we know it is NOT.



There has been absolutely no mention of the cloning facility being able to clone humans. Why assume they can and that the Wraith just choose not to?

Because it is easier to believe they don;t so they remain evil to many.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Although here's a thought we know they don't have any problem cloning or eating fellow wraith? Why not make a few extra drones to snack on in emergencies?
They have problems with it. Which is why it's so rarely done, only in times of desperate need, like being stranded somewhere.

And who knows? Maybe clones can't sustain them, period? It's a flawed process? Who knows. After all, the grunts are mindless animals under constant mind control.


There is no proof that Michael's clones are flawed. There is proof that he introduced a flaw to keep carson in line and manageable (if he escapes, he dies).
Your definition of "proof" is questionable. What possible irrefutable (or even circumstancial) proof do you have that the flaw wasn't inherent but introduced only to keep Carson in line?

We have proof of the opposite. For one thing, Michael didn't tell Carson about it. If he wanted to use it as a weapon against Carson, he would've told Carson, to prevent any attempts to escape.


Just beacuse the conlener was not used for humans, it means the process won't work for humans?
Read what I said. If it works, why haven't they done it, despite staving to death?

I like it how you love to make leaps of logic and assume the hell out of things and then calling your assumptions "proof".

pcat
December 11th, 2008, 04:39 PM
If Carson knew about the built in limitation, he could have tried to find a way to circumvent it (cure or steal the medicine). Why in the world would michael disclose this. He could always clone another if he escapes and start over.

Cloning: THEY DID NOT HAVE THE ZPM's. when they got them they were stolen by rival wraith and an ARMY of wraith was cloned.

Lord batchi ball
December 11th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Going by that logic it's OK for Wraith to eat humans, then. Humans commit genocide and other atrocities against their own kind. Then there's the wars that humans have fought for thousands of years - evidence goes back to Neolithic times for organised warfare.

http://eserver.org/history/neolithic-war.txt

Finally there have been murders and violent crimes throughout history too.

The Stargate Earth is supposed to be our Earth and we know there are wars on it because Sheppard was in Afghanistan.



That was what I was thinking.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 08:11 PM
If Carson knew about the built in limitation, he could have tried to find a way to circumvent it (cure or steal the medicine). Why in the world would michael disclose this. He could always clone another if he escapes and start over.

Cloning: THEY DID NOT HAVE THE ZPM's. when they got them they were stolen by rival wraith and an ARMY of wraith was cloned.
Michael seems perfectly capable of cloning humans without the use of a ZPM (as far as we know). Cloning obviously doesn't require a ZPM.

Ouroboros
December 11th, 2008, 09:56 PM
I'm going to have to concede that if they could have they probably would have by now. Maybe Carson's clone can't actually sustain wraith as well as ordinary humans. Maybe clones just aren't tasty enough though.

Although here's a thought we know they don't have any problem cloning or eating fellow wraith? Why not make a few extra drones to snack on in emergencies?

In stargateverse it seems the question has been answered, clones have no soul.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b144/ColdBlueLight/200px-Carson_Beckett_Stargate.jpg

^^^SOULLESS ABOMINATION?

:D

ciannwn
December 12th, 2008, 03:17 AM
In stargateverse it seems the question has been answered, clones have no soul.

Which brings us back to the question of what a soul is supposed to be in the Stargate universe. :)

Flyboy
December 12th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Which brings us back to the question of what a soul is supposed to be in the Stargate universe. :)
Od which I'd say there remains no concrete evidence just as in our world. Just because the universe is bigger than we ever imagined doesn't mean there's no such thing as a soul. And just because Beckett has been cloned doesn't mean he doesn't have a soul (on both counts), but it doesn't mean it's the same soul.

ciannwn
December 12th, 2008, 07:18 AM
And just because Beckett has been cloned doesn't mean he doesn't have a soul (on both counts), but it doesn't mean it's the same soul.

What about all the versions of people from alternate universes? Would every single Rodney, for example, have a different soul or would they all share the same one? :)

The way that the word was used in 'This Moral Coil' suggests that it's something special to humans although it could just be 'information'.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/transcripts/410.shtml

KELLER: You're all fully human. You have the same minds as your original selves, the same thoughts, the same emotions. More importantly, you have something that's always eluded us, something that kept your kind apart from the very beginning and made you special in the eyes of our creators. You would call it a soul. It is that "secret ingredient" you referred to – the key to ascension.

WEIR: That is not something you can learn to acquire simply by studying us.

KELLER: Why not? The human brain is just an electro-chemical machine – biologically created, but a machine nonetheless. Everything is quantifiable.

I'm not snobbish about souls. I think Asurans should have them along with Wraith and every other life form in the universe. :)

Ouroboros
December 12th, 2008, 07:58 AM
Which brings us back to the question of what a soul is supposed to be in the Stargate universe. :)

Wraith food.

ciannwn
December 12th, 2008, 08:19 AM
Wraith food.

The Wraith from 'Condemned' wouldn't just settle for ordinary souls, though. He'd go for things like Baked Soul With Lemon Sauce, Poached Soul With Shrimp Sauce and Soul In Herbed Butter. :D

NoobTau'ri
December 12th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Their species evolved to prey on humans and apparently humans alone so it was never really a matter of choice for them the way it is for vegetarian humans.

Nah, you misunderstood me. You are right that not eating meat is an easy choice for Humans since we have so many other dietary choices, while not eating Humans is a very, very hard choice for a Wraith since it means death. My point here, however, is that I wouldn't do it. If we Humans were a carnivorous species and I had no choice but to eat flesh or die, then I would choose to live and eat flesh. However, if I absolutely had to eat the flesh of a sentient species and that sentient species were the only food I could eat or die, then I would choose death. I understand that this is an attitude that is not realistic for 99.9% of beings, and I certainly do not recriminate the Wraith for choosing to live. My point, and where we disagree very strongly, is that you fail to see that many Wraith actually enjoy torturing Humans. For many Wraith, it is a great pleasure to murder Humans and see them suffer. It is not merely an issue of feeding. The episode, "Sateda", goes to show what worthless pieces of **** the Wraith can be. Like many Human are, too. In defense of the Wraith, their sadism might come from their Human part, but that still doesen't absolve them.


That's the reason why psychologically they can't view humans as equals and likely don't even have the same sort of concept of sentient/non sentient that humans do. That concept itself is entirely a human invention used to elevate ourselves above the animals we eat/exploit for our needs.

Wrong. That concept is very real. There is even a test, the famous mirror test, that determines sentience. Sentience is defined as the ability of recognizing yourself as a separate entity distinguished from other objects/things/beings. Besides Humans, some other large primates like chimpanzees and gorillas have passed the mirror test, as well as dolphins and pigs. As a result of this, several countries in Europe are considering giving the large apes legal status akin to a Human child. Conversely, there is no evidence that a bee regards itself as an autonomous being. Teh same could be said for an oyster or a flower.


I have no doubt that their society has created something similar. Something which morally places Wraith above humans the same way we place ourselves above other animals. They could even use the same sort of logic if they wanted to. Most of the "we're sentient they're not" type of reasoning for viewing humans as superior to animals centers around intelligence and societal achievements.

The problem is that the Wraith get all their intelligence and self-conscience from their Human part. The Iratus Bug gave them their need to feed, their strengh and aggressivness. The Wraith are no more sentient than Humans; they are actually less. With the exception of queens and a small number of elite males, the average Wraith has less intelligence, individuality and self-conscience than the average Human. All a Wraith drone wants to do in life is serve his queen and feed. They don't speak, have no dreams of their own nor do they have much brain power anyway. They are the inferiors to Humans at everything except physical strengh and longevity, and even these they only get from parasitizing the Human Species. You put a Wraith who hasn't fed for some weeks to fight a Human, and the Human will kick it's ass.

But this is all besides the point. Any philosopher will tell you that the criteria used to determine how much a living creature is capable of attaching value to things like living or dying is awareness. A Human suffers more from the idea of dying than an animal because a Human is more aware than an animal, and the animal suffers more from the idea of dying than a plant because it's more aware. An animal can feel death approaching and will release epinephrine as a response, and will try to flee: it reacts more than a plant. A Human reacts even more, asking questions about thje Nature of existence, the meaning of the Universe, etc. The Wraith have shown no greater awareness than Humans. Remember the episode in SG-1, "Triad", where the Goa'uld tried to justify the Goa'uld's greater right to life over the Human using the argument that the Goa' uld have a greater awareness than Humans.


They could likewise point to their own technological and physical superiority to justify themselves as having the same right to abuse and consume humans as we do to abuse and consume animals.

Again, their physical superiority is dependent on stealing life force from Humans, and some Humans, like Ronon, have been able to defeat fully fed Wraiths. As for their technological superiority, it comes from stealing from the Ancients, a Human civilization, and because they used this technology they stole from the Ancients to stomp out any sign of burgeoning technological progress of any Human World in Pegasus. They do not show any greater intelligence than Humans, especially considering that their intelligence comes form their Human part. Again, the Wraith show no greater awareness than Humans and thus the capacity to t]attach value to concepts like life and death, so dying to a Wraith is no more of a loss than it is to a Human.


The easier way to do it would be to point to their immortality though. A human is going to die anyway, so what does it matter if he dies a few years sooner to feed a Wraith who'll live forever so long as he's fed?

But a Wraith is only immortal if it kills endless Humans. I can use exactly the same argument you are using to justify the Human being allowed to live and the Wraith starve. Why should a Wraith be allowed to feed on a Human that still has 50 years to live if the life force he sucked from the Human will be exhausted in a few weeks at best and he will need to feed again? What greater joys will the Wraith experience in these few weeks and what greater dreams he will fullfill and values he will create in these few weeks with this life force that will be greater than what the Human would in the next 50 years if he kept the life force fro himself? And the Wraith will in the span of his thousands of years of existence kill tens of thousands of Humans, and the amount of dreams, goals and experiences that those thousands of Humans would have in that span of time would be infinitely greater than that of the single Wraith. This is especially true concerning Wraith drones, who are almost the equivalent of Humanoid cockroaches in terms of conscience and awareness. How can you justify, as an example, a Wraith drone feeding of isaac Newton if the latter were still to create his theories and had decades to live? How can you justify from the point of view of utilitarian philosophy the drone using in a couple weeks the vital force that Newton would use to create his theories and provide answers for deep questions concerning the Universe, since the drone is almost mindless and unaware? What greater values, ideas and awareness of the Universe the almost mindless Wraith drone would produce in a few weeks than Newton in several decades?


We created the concept of sentient/non sentient and then assigned this quality of sentience that we've decided we have and they don't supreme value in order to elevate ourselves as superior to them.

Well, we could get into a very hardcore metaphysical and epistemological debate here that is far beyond the scope of an exchange at an internet message board - except for a philosophy board -, but there are certain things that are clear about the Nature of values that are not biased in the favor of Humans and are simply the result of logical deliberation. Why do we attach value to life? Because we create values with our lives and we experience. It is in fact because we are aware that we even have a concept of life and death. The only non-biased, objective way of assessing the value of a living being is it's awareness. A plant cares far less about dying than an animal because it's far less aware. We care more about dying than an animal because we are more aware: we not only get an adrenaline response in response to a threat to our lives just like animals, but we are able to ask questions about what it means to die, which animals do not. The Wraith have not shown any greater awareness than Humans, no higher degree of conscience.


In neither of those cases though are the abuses of the abuser fundamentally necessary to their basic survival the way it is for the Wraith. Nazi's and racists aren't each confronted with a painful and inevitable personal death by starvation if they decide to not act racist and/or not kill people. They do those things because they choose to not because they have to.

Ah, but the abuses are not fundamental for their survival. They didn't need to torture and hunt Humans for fun. If the Wraith hated having to kill Humans and did it only because they must to survive, then they would just feed on them and not terrorize them by prolonging their agony. Besides, I used this as an example of how a group can be nice to each other and cruel to others. The kindness of one to his family/species/race does not necessarily correlate with overral niceness, which is the point I was trying to convey.

Ouroboros
December 13th, 2008, 09:38 PM
Nah, you misunderstood me. You are right that not eating meat is an easy choice for Humans since we have so many other dietary choices, while not eating Humans is a very, very hard choice for a Wraith since it means death... many Wraith actually enjoy torturing Humans. For many Wraith, it is a great pleasure to murder Humans and see them suffer...

A few sadistic Wraith we see here or there is hardly enough to cast a blanket condemnation on the entire species. There are afterall many humans one could point out who are a lot worse than any of these Wraith we've seen but using them to call the entire human race evil would obviously be flawed.


Wrong. That concept is very real. There is even a test, the famous mirror test, that determines sentience. Sentience is defined as the ability of recognizing yourself as a separate entity distinguished from other objects/things/beings. Besides Humans, some other large primates like chimpanzees and gorillas have passed the mirror test, as well as dolphins and pigs. As a result of this, several countries in Europe are considering giving the large apes legal status akin to a Human child. Conversely, there is no evidence that a bee regards itself as an autonomous being. Teh same could be said for an oyster or a flower.

The problem is that the Wraith get all their intelligence and self-conscience from their Human part. The Iratus Bug gave them their need to feed, their strengh and aggressivness. The Wraith are no more sentient than Humans; they are actually less. With the exception of queens and a small number of elite males, the average Wraith has less intelligence, individuality and self-conscience than the average Human. All a Wraith drone wants to do in life is serve his queen and feed. They don't speak, have no dreams of their own nor do they have much brain power anyway. They are the inferiors to Humans at everything except physical strengh and longevity, and even these they only get from parasitizing the Human Species. You put a Wraith who hasn't fed for some weeks to fight a Human, and the Human will kick it's ass.

But this is all besides the point. Any philosopher will tell you that the criteria used to determine how much a living creature is capable of attaching value to things like living or dying is awareness. A Human suffers more from the idea of dying than an animal because a Human is more aware than an animal, and the animal suffers more from the idea of dying than a plant because it's more aware. An animal can feel death approaching and will release epinephrine as a response, and will try to flee: it reacts more than a plant. A Human reacts even more, asking questions about thje Nature of existence, the meaning of the Universe, etc. The Wraith have shown no greater awareness than Humans. Remember the episode in SG-1, "Triad", where the Goa'uld tried to justify the Goa'uld's greater right to life over the Human using the argument that the Goa' uld have a greater awareness than Humans.

But why are these various qualities of sentience held to be superior, and by whom? There's no real reason the Wraith have to regard the presence of sentience in a creature to be particularly valuable or noteworthy in itself the way humans do. There's no objective universal law that says that sentient creatures are more valuable than non sentient ones. They might hold other critera in a lifeform to be more valuable than sentience, immortality, telepathy or any numbr of other traits that they don't share with their prey. Humans hold sentience as valuable because it makes animals who are closer to it more human like which is in itself sort of a backward admission of our own belief in our own inherent superiority.


Again, their physical superiority is dependent on stealing life force from Humans, and some Humans, like Ronon, have been able to defeat fully fed Wraiths. As for their technological superiority, it comes from stealing from the Ancients, a Human civilization, and because they used this technology they stole from the Ancients to stomp out any sign of burgeoning technological progress of any Human World in Pegasus. They do not show any greater intelligence than Humans, especially considering that their intelligence comes form their Human part. Again, the Wraith show no greater awareness than Humans and thus the capacity to t]attach value to concepts like life and death, so dying to a Wraith is no more of a loss than it is to a Human.

The food thing is a bizzare objection. They don't "steal" their strength from humans anymore than humans steal their strength from pigs, cows, tomatoes or anything else we happen to eat. The ancient tech thing also rings pretty bogus to me. Their tech base is completely different. They were smart enough to adapt some ancient tech to their purposes yes, ancient power sources mainly in their cloning machine, but to say that they stole everything from the ancients goes a bit far.


But a Wraith is only immortal if it kills endless Humans. I can use exactly the same argument you are using to justify the Human being allowed to live and the Wraith starve. Why should a Wraith be allowed to feed on a Human that still has 50 years to live if the life force he sucked from the Human will be exhausted in a few weeks at best and he will need to feed again? What greater joys will the Wraith experience in these few weeks and what greater dreams he will fullfill and values he will create in these few weeks with this life force that will be greater than what the Human would in the next 50 years if he kept the life force fro himself? And the Wraith will in the span of his thousands of years of existence kill tens of thousands of Humans, and the amount of dreams, goals and experiences that those thousands of Humans would have in that span of time would be infinitely greater than that of the single Wraith. This is especially true concerning Wraith drones, who are almost the equivalent of Humanoid cockroaches in terms of conscience and awareness. How can you justify, as an example, a Wraith drone feeding of isaac Newton if the latter were still to create his theories and had decades to live? How can you justify from the point of view of utilitarian philosophy the drone using in a couple weeks the vital force that Newton would use to create his theories and provide answers for deep questions concerning the Universe, since the drone is almost mindless and unaware? What greater values, ideas and awareness of the Universe the almost mindless Wraith drone would produce in a few weeks than Newton in several decades?

You can't justify it objectively very well no, but as a means to bury your potential guilt over killing "infearior beings" to live forever it works rather splendidly, especially when you're not the only one doing it.

That's what I'm really trying to do here, get inside the Wraith mindset more. What might they think about what they do. The issues that surrond their means of survival are a lot more complex than just good or evil I think and it's something I really wish had been delved into more on the show.


Well, we could get into a very hardcore metaphysical and epistemological debate here that is far beyond the scope of an exchange at an internet message board - except for a philosophy board -, but there are certain things that are clear about the Nature of values that are not biased in the favor of Humans and are simply the result of logical deliberation. Why do we attach value to life? Because we create values with our lives and we experience. It is in fact because we are aware that we even have a concept of life and death. The only non-biased, objective way of assessing the value of a living being is it's awareness. A plant cares far less about dying than an animal because it's far less aware. We care more about dying than an animal because we are more aware: we not only get an adrenaline response in response to a threat to our lives just like animals, but we are able to ask questions about what it means to die, which animals do not. The Wraith have not shown any greater awareness than Humans, no higher degree of conscience.

But their circumstances are very different. Humans value sentience because creatures with a greater degree of it remind us more of ourselves and since we're naturally predisposed against wanting to harm one another this naturally extends to things like us as well. The Wraith are not fully human though, and on top of that they're faced with a set of circumstances where assigning the same value to sentience as we do would largely lead to their extinction. Moral concepts like this are never going to come about in a society when those concepts are in stark contradiction to the species basic survival requirements. No intelligent being would intentionally create moral codes that condemn itself as an inherently evil and destructive entity just for existing and call for it to end its own life and the lives of others like it to avoid harming outsiders of another species. Their morality will be shaped by their own circumstances just as ours is. If we could only eat chimps for some reason you'd see how all of a sudden it was the differences that were stressed rather than the similarities. Quite simply put the Wraith will find something else to admire in creatures that isn't sentience, because admiring sentience puts them on a road that ends in their own inescapable villification.


Ah, but the abuses are not fundamental for their survival. They didn't need to torture and hunt Humans for fun. If the Wraith hated having to kill Humans and did it only because they must to survive, then they would just feed on them and not terrorize them by prolonging their agony. Besides, I used this as an example of how a group can be nice to each other and cruel to others. The kindness of one to his family/species/race does not necessarily correlate with overral niceness, which is the point I was trying to convey.

I can sort of get what you're saying. What I'm trying to say is that they only act this way toward their food/prey animals. Like I said before I think it's an important thing to notice as it shows that they're not inherently disposed to that sort of behaviour all the time, and rather that that behaviour is reserved for the creatures they have to kill to eat. Expecting them to be kind to those creatures isn't really realistic. There might even be a very real biological reason why scaring a human as much as possible is preferable before feeding on him. We know the feeding process is physically traumaic for the victim and that the chemicals they inject serve to push the body beyond its limits for a short time. It's possible that andrenaline also plays a role in this, so while it's not 100% necessary to scare the prey before feeding it is preferable and certainly not harmful. I'm talking more about things like the sudden hissing and snarling they do sometimes before feedin. Actual drawn out torture games like Sateda is obviously not going to fit into this category.

Other than Sateda though I can't really think of much else that would qualify as purely sadistic type torture as oppossed to torture with the goal of gaining information like with Sumner or Ronan's old buddies.

FallenAngelII
December 14th, 2008, 03:18 AM
What about all the versions of people from alternate universes? Would every single Rodney, for example, have a different soul or would they all share the same one? :)
Seeing as how there are an infinite number of possibilities and there are most probably evil Rodneys that have taken over the galaxy or something somewhere, it's fair to assume that souls are not shared across the multi-verse.


Stuff about hunting.
A select few Wraith practice hunting against a select few runners. When Ronon was freed, there were only six other runners in the galaxy.

The practice of runners is so uncommon, people have only heard legends of them! Teyla didn't say "This is common", she said something along the lines of "I think I've heard of this once".

It's not wide-spread. It's not common Wraith practice! And, oh hey, humans hunt too! At least Runners can defend themselves. Tell that to the rabbit some hunter just shot in the woods of South Carolina or whatever.

As for the "abuse", the Wraith barely abuse their prey, ever. But there's an importance to not becoming too friendly with their food. Because humans can talk and communicate, unless you keep a distance and keep treating them like animals, you might feel sorry for them, and that's not going to help you when you have to feed in order to live.

It's survival instinct telling you not to become too weak.

spinny magee
December 19th, 2008, 05:36 AM
Agreed it's like on that episode where Unas are Humans slaves. The Unas are intelligent and once used humans as slaves (in wraiths case food). Until the humans led an uprising(in wraiths case atlantis expedition). And they gave the treatment right back except not eating the wraith more like decimating them....