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Lucylee
November 25th, 2008, 09:05 AM
OK, they may have done the Mile High Monkey Dance, but I don't think this relationship is long for the world, any more than Rodney and Katie's.
For various reasons, one being that he will have to work too hard to change his fundamental personality, she likes him "domesticated."
Over time, this has got to hurt a relationship.
Also, in the Last Man, it ended in tragedy, perhaps fate will intervene and repeat itself?

Briangate78
November 25th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Of course Mckeller won't last, the series is ending in 4 eps. :S

jelgate
November 25th, 2008, 12:58 PM
The basis for a long term relationship:
She's looking for Daddy, he's looking for some action,
It's a win win situation, right?

Sounds like you perscribe to sterotypes

Rac80
November 25th, 2008, 01:22 PM
Nope it sure won't! and besides the "squick"(my new favorite word) factor here are my other reasons:
Everyone has been talking about the supposed "development" of mckays character and I will say I see none! Poor jenn is relegated to being a "blonde bimbo on his arm". if that isn't demeaning to women what is??? he only wants to show off that he could get the hot younger chick? shows me that mckay hasn't changed at all...he is as shallow as ever.
And as for poor Jenn, that was totally OOC for her to not mind being the bimbo and then the mile-high club... playing to a fanboy's fantasies is very demeaning. shame on gero for doing it to the character. They couldn't even treat her with respect!!!!! That is why the relationship won't last.... no woman with the brains jenn has would put up with it!

jenks
November 25th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Image from the final episode:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/albums/atl_season5/520-EnemyAtTheGate/photos/normal_520_enemyatthegate_11.jpg

Lucylee
November 25th, 2008, 04:18 PM
Image from the final episode:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/albums/atl_season5/520-EnemyAtTheGate/photos/normal_520_enemyatthegate_11.jpg

Look at that picture, how the pairing separates Rodney from the Team.:(
It might actually turn into a lasting relationship, as they try to give the series (and their favoritest character) a semi-happy finale, but I wish it wouldn't.

Skydiver
November 25th, 2008, 06:47 PM
yeah, it'll last about 4 more episodes :)

Briangate78
November 25th, 2008, 06:54 PM
yeah, it'll last about 4 more episodes :)

Hey no fair! I said that first! :p

the fifth man
November 25th, 2008, 06:59 PM
Image from the final episode:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/albums/atl_season5/520-EnemyAtTheGate/photos/normal_520_enemyatthegate_11.jpg

Looks good to me.:) Personally, I'm happy for the two of them.

Lythisrose
November 25th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Of course Mckeller won't last, the series is ending in 4 eps. :S


yeah, it'll last about 4 more episodes :)

But do you think it will last into the movie?

majorsal
November 25th, 2008, 07:20 PM
while i'm not a regular ep-for-ep viewer anymore this season, i like keller and i really like mckay, and i think they go well together. she likes cuddly geeks and he likes strong/smart women, so woo! :D

(while i usually fall for the studs - :jack_new_anime18: :cameron21: , i like :mckayanime03: too. ~drools~ )

Killdeer
November 25th, 2008, 07:21 PM
But do you think it will last into the movie?

Yes. Mallozzi and Mullie are writing it, and Mullie has been one of the ones pushing McKeller - he wrote The Last Man after all.

Lythisrose
November 25th, 2008, 07:23 PM
Yes. Mallozzi and Mullie are writing it, and Mullie has been one of the ones pushing McKeller - he wrote The Last Man after all.

But she died in The Last Man, that doesn't necessarily bode well for the pair.

jenks
November 25th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Yes. Mallozzi and Mullie are writing it, and Mullie has been one of the ones pushing McKeller - he wrote The Last Man after all.

The ship has been referenced in Trio, The Last Man, The Shrine, Tracker, First Contact, The Lost Tribe and Brain Storm. They were written by Martin Gero, Joe Mallozzi, Paul Mullie, Brad Wright and Carl Binder, so it looks like they're all in on it.

jelgate
November 25th, 2008, 07:27 PM
But she died in The Last Man, that doesn't necessarily bode well for the pair.All that means was that the outcome was different. The cirumstances about its end are completely different.

Repli!kat
November 25th, 2008, 07:29 PM
Keller: "Me love you loooong time!"
Rodney: :mckayanime03::D

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 07:53 PM
yeah, it'll last about 4 more episodes :)
Silver lining.

airrick
November 26th, 2008, 01:37 AM
Image from the final episode:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/albums/atl_season5/520-EnemyAtTheGate/photos/normal_520_enemyatthegate_11.jpg

Who is the girl on the right side.. I cant figure out who that is

Celebrian
November 26th, 2008, 03:17 AM
Who is the girl on the right side.. I cant figure out who that is

I was wondering the same thing...:mckay:

CazzBlade
November 26th, 2008, 04:20 AM
Yes. Mallozzi and Mullie are writing it, and Mullie has been one of the ones pushing McKeller - he wrote The Last Man after all.

But he also wrote The Seed where: "SHEPPARD: Woolsey wasn't the weirdest thing about that timeline.

KELLER: What do you mean?

SHEPPARD (glancing between Jennifer and Rodney): ... Never mind."

Boo
November 26th, 2008, 04:30 AM
Who is the girl on the right side.. I cant figure out who that is


Could it be Amelia Banks?

The only thing that i am worried about in the movie is their relationship. It's really bugging me. I'm still going to watch the movies anyway. :)

Celebrian
November 26th, 2008, 04:37 AM
Could it be Amelia Banks?

The only thing that i am worried about in the movie is their relationship. It's really bugging me. I'm still going to watch the movies anyway. :)


It is she! ...She's the girl who held off one of Michael's people lately, right? :beckett:

Willow'sCat
November 26th, 2008, 04:43 AM
Maybe it is a Sam/Pete thing, TPTB have to get it out of their system before moving on. Or they are trying to convince themselves they can write "relationships". :rolleyes:

In this case though the axe might have beat them, where they probably thought they could ride this to a season 5 finale and season 6 opener storyline conclusion (Last Man is not being forgotten even in Brain Storm) they get cancelled instead. *poetic justice?*

TPTB had to instead re-write stuff to fit into making a movie instead of going with their original plan, whatever the heck that was! :cool:

We are so screwed! :p

tar21
November 26th, 2008, 09:50 AM
In the Last Man Keller's death changed Rodney. She brought out the best in him and it took a tragedy to bring them together. Tragedy gave McKay what he always wanted but it came at a price. He was happy with Keller and she helped him cope. Her death changed him completely. Her death crushed him and ultimately broke him and remade him. He threw his ego away, he became grim and dark. His career, social life, ego were thrown away. He became obsessed with fixing the past, bringing back Shepard to right the past, save a a galaxy, save his friends.

Shepard acts that way he does when he sees them together because he knows how much Keller meant to Rodney in that timeline. He never knew Rodney would find "true love." She did change Rodney. Marrying her and then losing inspired him to pull off the greatest plan McKay will ever pull... a plan executed with great precision and a high risk of failure that ultimately work because of McKay's sheer will. McKay died a lonely death, a forgotten and probably insignificant person in the yes of many just to save the people he loved. He never got the nobel prive, didn't care. He never made tons of money. He never remarried. He sacrificed his entire life to fix what he thought went wrong. Took him decades to do it.

It was freakin' tragic. McKay lost his will to enjoy life without his wife. He could cope with losing all the others except for Keller. He would have lived happily and accepted the past if Keller would have just been there with him.



And Keller doesn't want to fix Rodney, just wants to make Rodney to stop putting on the mask of a sarcastic jerk. He's not that wimpy or that prone to illness. He is capable of heroism and selflessness. He has a problem showing his affection to people and usually does it by being mean to them.

Anyhow, Rodney is loved by his sister but that doesn't stop his sister from trying to talk sense into him either.


And McKeller is a scifi friendly relationship. Because it follows the path usually found in mecha anime, fantasy, and the like. A high idealized romance that gets so intense... that one character does great things for the other... good or terrible. In the "Last Man," McKay loved Keller so much he did the impossible. Soulmate relationships can lead to good SciFi. It worked in the last man. Heartbroken McKay was sad.

The McKeller could be exploited by villains to make Rodney do dark and sinister things. To screw with his mind. Maybe a storyline where he has to kill someone to save Keller and keeps it a secret. In the movies or if the series were to be miraculously renewed out the blue they could exploit this. Rodney switching places with Keller and being frozen in carbonite. Rodney building a super weapon in exchange for her safety. Rodney going Locutus of Borg and then Keller trying to come up with a virus to kill his organic cells.

How much will Keller mean to McKay? Would he kill millions for her? Would be betray an entire planet? Would he take a bullet for her? How reckless would he get if he thought she were gone? He's a genius. A man capable of very dangerous work. Bwahaha!!!


And please... Daniel Jackson grew up a bit. McKay could be forced to do unsavory things to save the person her cares about the most. Space is a dangerous place, specially for love birds. BWAHAHAH!!!

Infinite-Possibilities
November 26th, 2008, 09:53 AM
I am fairly certain the writers have intended this to be THE long lasting relationship in Stargate. If it comes off as unhealthy to to audience for any number of reasons is largely immaterial I'd guess.

ponycake
November 26th, 2008, 10:50 AM
I am fairly certain the writers have intended this to be THE long lasting relationship in Stargate. If it comes off as unhealthy to to audience for any number of reasons is largely immaterial I'd guess.

I agree. I mean to state the obvious Keller and McKay aren't autonomous beings, they only do what the writers intend them to do and I just think that there's a disconnect between what they're intending (McKeller is Sparkly Soulmatey Love) and what some viewers are interpreting it as.

Keller's a Mary Sue created to be a girlfriend for Rodney, without this function the reason why Gero and co designed the character ceases to be. So no, unless they listen to one section of fandom over another (and ratings haven't suffered, so why would they) there's no way that those two love birds are breaking up.

DragonLadyK
November 26th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Also, in the Last Man, it ended in tragedy, perhaps fate will intervene and repeat itself?

Or the fanfic writers. ~.^

DragonLady

GateEngineer17
November 26th, 2008, 09:17 PM
For various reasons, one being that he will have to work too hard to change his fundamental personality, she likes him "domesticated."

I think Rodney was very clear that he wasn't about to change his fundamental personality, and told Jennifer as much on the ride back in the plane. There's a big difference between changing his personality and agreeing to try not be an excessive jerk and whiner in her presence.

More below, spoilered for length . . . Rodney's years in Atlantis have given him the experience of true friendship and teamwork. He understands and values these things far better than he ever did when he was working alone at University, at Area 51 or in Russia. Rodney had to modify his behavior to fit in with the Team, and he willingly chose to do so, because he perceived value there. I think he is choosing to moderate his worse behaviors in Jennifer's presence because he values her company as well.

I think the fact that Rodney is doing better in his personal relationships is expressly because he has come along way from the person we saw in SG-1. It is that process of change, which was begun long before Jennifer Keller arrived on the scene, that has given him true friends and possibilities for love which he never had before.

I perceive an interesting double standard being employed that criticizes Keller for doing the very same things we've praised the likes of Sheppard, Weir, Teyla, Carter, Zelenka and even Lorne for doing many times before - namely, helping Rodney tone down his whiny, panicky, arrogant, self-serving and selfish behaviors so he can function better in his work and relationships in the Atlantis community.

I think Sheppard and Keller both succeed in dealing with Rodney because they accept and genuinely appreciate who he is, but at the same time are not afraid to tell him when he's being a jerk, a whiner, paranoid, etc. They don't run away or shut him out when he's acting badly. They also don't have some vision of him that he can't meet, as I think Katie Brown did. Instead they enjoy who he is, but aren't afraid to whap him upside the head (literally, sometimes, in Shep's case) to help him get with the program.

Rodney appreciates, respects and trusts people who are willing to stand up to him and be honest with him, because not many are. That's one of the reasons why John Sheppard, Elizabeth Weir, Radek Zelenka and Jennifer Keller are among the people Rodney cares/cared about the most, whether it be as friend, lover, personal/professional conscience or some combination thereof.

silvercomet
November 27th, 2008, 01:15 PM
But do you think it will last into the movie?


Yes, I'm afraid it will. Just because the writers are so enthusiastic about that relationship. :(

Or is there really hope because a doctor usually isn't getting old in Stargate? :p

Dr Lee
November 28th, 2008, 09:30 AM
It'll carry on on as for as long as we get movies or anything else imho.

Pharaoh Atem
November 28th, 2008, 09:36 AM
Of course Mckeller won't last, the series is ending in 4 eps. :S

hA

mckeller will last cause this time jennifer hasn't been exposed to the hoffman drug nearly every day like she was in "the last man"

JohnDuh
November 28th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Of course Mckeller won't last, the series is ending in 4 eps. :S

And they'll probably kill her there, thinking it makes them great writers - tsk tsk.

adamisme
November 30th, 2008, 10:30 AM
yeah I think its Amelia, I think what makes her look different is her hair is normall bunched up, not down. But she's hardly appeared so how come she is appearing with the main cast, unless she has a bigger role in the last few episodes.

And long may McKeller last

Falcon 304
November 30th, 2008, 11:12 AM
http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/Falcon304/mckeller2.jpg

Copyright Falcon 2008

brainstorm spoilers

Blistna
November 30th, 2008, 12:33 PM
oh no stargate turned 90120...there is a lasting relationship!!?!?!

Sorry, couldn't help myself ^_^. But...apparently they do last four episodes...so is that like four dates...or...?

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 03:34 AM
Yes, I'm afraid it will. Just because the writers are so enthusiastic about that relationship. :(

Or is there really hope because a doctor usually isn't getting old in Stargate? :p
The writers are hacks, [mod snip]

The fans hated Jennifer in season 4. They loathed her. They hated her character, how she behaved, how much space she got on the show.

The solution? Make her a regular character, the 3rd biggest (and quite possibly 2nd biggest) character on the show, devote entire episodes to her, ship her with Rodney, change her character to magically make her less reprehensible to the viewers, Mary Sue her even more, etc., etc., etc.

Clearly, the writers have no respect for the fans. If they don't like sometimes, well, who cares. The writers will keep their "vision" intact.

So, now that the fans still hate her (many don't, many do), at least partially because of this misguided relationship the writers have shoehorned her into, what can we expect to happen? Who knows, maybe there will be a McKeller movie where a large portion of the plot will center around McKeller.

The writers have shown us that they're not above tripe like that.

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 06:25 AM
^^ Too much stupid in that post to address individually. Overall I would say the fans don't hate Keller, some do of course, but as with everything they never agree on anything, so there's your first bit of stupid. The second bit was your idea that the writers are somehow disrespecting the fans because they don't pander to a certain section of them, get over yourself seriously, it's pathetic.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 06:34 AM
^^ Too much stupid in that post to address individually. Overall I would say the fans don't hate Keller, some do of course, but with as with everything they never agree on anything, so there's your first bit of stupid.
Rephrasal: A large portion of the fanbase hated her.

Why did I mention this? Although I forgot to elaborate earlier, I mentioned it because this was a key reason referenced by Mallozzi for why Jennifer's role was expanded this season. Yes, the reason why Jennifer got a bigger role and more screen time and character development than Teyla and Ronon combined most of the time was because many fans hated her.

The writers thought the solution was to force her down our throats.


The second bit was your idea that the writers are somehow disrespecting the fans because they don't pander to a certain section of them, get over yourself seriously, it's pathetic.
A large portion of the fanbase hated Jennifer. Many of us didn't hate her for what she was (a Carson replacement) but for who she was (her character, her portrayal, her screen-time, etc.).

It is disrespectful to, in response to this, throw more of her our way and explicitly tell us that it was the "solution". Mallozzi didn't just go "The writers like Jennifer and decided to expand her role".

He went "The fans didn't like her. So we came up with the solution of doubling her screen time! Because obviously, people will like her now!". That is not only saying "The opinions of the fans, no matter how largely shared it might be (and many people hated/disliked Jennifer, if not a majority then close to 50/50), do not matter". It's saying "We don't only not care about the fact you dislike her, but we'll make you like her!".

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 06:50 AM
A large portion of the fanbase hated Jennifer. Many of us didn't hate her for what she was (a Carson replacement) but for who she was (her character, her portrayal, her screen-time, etc.).

It is disrespectful to, in response to this, throw more of her our way and explicitly tell us that it was the "solution". Mallozzi didn't just go "The writers like Jennifer and decided to expand her role".

He went "The fans didn't like her. So we came up with the solution of doubling her screen time! Because obviously, people will like her now!". That is not only saying "The opinions of the fans, no matter how largely shared it might be (and many people hated/disliked Jennifer, if not a majority then close to 50/50), do not matter". It's saying "We don't only not care about the fact you dislike her, but we'll make you like her!".

You got a link for these quotes? And why should they care how much a few fans dislike Keller anyway? The show isn't made just to please this forum, and it really doesn't matter to them if it doesn't, we should be grateful they interact with fans on the internet at all, because we do little to deserve it. They get little more than grief from a lot of people here, everything seems to be terrible yet they still watch, they act like they deserve to be entertained and when they're not that entitles them to complain. Anyone who thinks that needs a reality check, criticism is fine but the show is a luxury not a right, and their preferences are no more important than any random viewer.

Stormtrooper
December 1st, 2008, 06:51 AM
The writers are hacks, [mod snip]
The fans hated Jennifer in season 4. They loathed her. They hated her character, how she behaved, how much space she got on the show.

The solution? Make her a regular character, the 3rd biggest (and quite possibly 2nd biggest) character on the show, devote entire episodes to her, ship her with Rodney, change her character to magically make her less reprehensible to the viewers, Mary Sue her even more, etc., etc., etc.

Clearly, the writers have no respect for the fans. If they don't like sometimes, well, who cares. The writers will keep their "vision" intact.

So, now that the fans still hate her (many don't, many do), at least partially because of this misguided relationship the writers have shoehorned her into, what can we expect to happen? Who knows, maybe there will be a McKeller movie where a large portion of the plot will center around McKeller.

The writers have shown us that they're not above tripe like that.

Well said.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 06:55 AM
You got a link for these quotes?
I don't. I'm pretty sure it was stated somewhere on his blog. If it wasn't, then I was wrong and I'll apologize. Someone dig them up for me if you know where to find them.


And why should they care how much a few fans dislike Keller anyway? The show isn't made just to please this forum, and it really doesn't matter to them if it doesn't, we should be grateful they interact with fans on the internet at all, because we do little to deserve it.
The fanbase represents the viewerbase. Just because the fans are more devoted doesn't mean the views of the fans do not reflect the views of the viewers in general.

If a large portion of the fanbase dislike Jennifer, then a large portion of the viewerbase probably do as well. What are we, the fanbase, freaks of nature whose opinions do not correspond to that of the general viewer at all?

Thus, they should care what we feel. After all, we're the only source of feedback they have. They don't send people into the average viewing home and ask them question about what they think about the show. They should listen to our criticism and see if maybe we're right and they should change a few things around.

My point, however, was not that they ignored the views of the fans. They are free to do this, it is their show.

The point is that it was disrespectful to purposely add more of what the fans disliked as a "solution" to them disliking it.


They get little more than grief from a lot of people here, everything seems to be terrible yet they still watch, they act like they deserve to be entertained and when they're not that entitles them to complain.
I can dislike certain aspects of the show but still care enough to keep on watching. Doesn't mean I won't complain about the aspects I do not like.


Anyone who thinks that needs a reality check, criticism is fine but the show is a luxury not a right, and their preferences are no more important than any random viewer.
No one said this.

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 07:12 AM
The fanbase represents the viewerbase. Just because the fans are more devoted doesn't mean the views of the fans do not reflect the views of the viewers in general.

What makes you think they would?


If a large portion of the fanbase dislike Jennifer, then a large portion of the viewerbase probably do as well. What are we, the fanbase, freaks of nature whose opinions do not correspond to that of the general viewer at all?

I disagree, there's no reason to assume this at all, the forum isn't just like a sample of the larger viewerbase, people who come here are a different sort of viewer completely.


Thus, they should care what we feel. After all, we're the only source of feedback they have. They don't send people into the average viewing home and ask them question about what they think about the show. They should listen to our criticism and see if maybe we're right and they should change a few things around.

No we're not, they use focus groups, focus groups that give very different feedback to the stuff found on the forum.


My point, however, was not that they ignored the views of the fans. They are free to do this, it is their show.

The point is that it was disrespectful to purposely add more of what the fans disliked as a "solution" to them disliking it.

More and more people seem to be coming out of the woodwork and saying that they have grown to like Keller, and definitely far more than have said they have started to dislike her, so it has probably worked, at least to some extent.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 07:17 AM
What makes you think they would?
Because when it comes down to it, we're just viewers. We just happen to like the show a lot.

So if a disproportionately large chunk of the fanbase thinks something, it's not that much of a stretch to assume that maybe, just maybe the viewership in general shares the same view.


I disagree, there's no reason to assume this at all, the forum isn't just like a sample of the larger viewerbase, people who come here are a different sort of viewer completely.
Why, because we think? Because we don't watch the each episode just once? Why can't be represent the average viewer? We are just that, viewers.


No we're not, they use focus groups, focus groups that give very different feedback to the stuff found on the forum.
And we know this for a fact? Show me the evidence that states that Stargate Atlantis uses focus groups, because I've never heard anything on this subject.


More and more people seem to be coming out of the woodwork and saying that they have grown to like Keller, and definitely far more than have said they have started to dislike her, so it has probably worked, at least to some extent.
It's still not the best solution. It's not even a good one. They just got lucky it worked. After all, they'd portrayed her so badly people hated her before. Shoving her down out throats with the same portrayal would make us hate her more.

They just managed to write her better. In fact, I dislike her less. However, her artifical and badly written ship with Rodney still makes me dislike her because of the relationship we're stuck watching.

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 07:26 AM
Because when it comes down to it, we're just viewers. We just happen to like the show a lot.

So if a disproportionately large chunk of the fanbase thinks something, it's not that much of a stretch to assume that maybe, just maybe the viewership in general shares the same view.

I think you're getting a bit carried a way, 'disproportionately large chunk of the fanbase'? I wouldn't go that far, the general feeling toward Keller is split, the people who hate her a definitely not in the majority.


Why, because we think? Because we don't watch the each episode just once? Why can't be represent the average viewer? We are just that, viewers.

Because people on this forum are a hell of a lot more fanatical about the show than the average viewer. The average viewer won't have developed such an attachment to Carson, that any replacement would be met with immediate disdain, for example. Now I'm not saying everyone who hates the character does so because of Carson, but there are definitely people who do.


And we know this for a fact? Show me the evidence that states that Stargate Atlantis uses focus groups, because I've never heard anything on this subject.

DasNdanger also writes: “ My opinion about it is this - true, you can’t please all the fans, and only a very small percentage participate in on-line discussions. However, I think it’s fairly safe to use the internet input as a reflection of how the fanbase as a whole is reacting - taking the ‘pulse’ of the fans, as it were.”

Answer: True. I don’t think anyone should dismiss the response of online fans. But what you read on the forums must be taken with a grain of salt. As someone in that article pointed out, unhappy fans are far, far more likely to take the time to express their feelings that fans who are pleased with a show’s creative direction. Also, the opinion of fans with diverse opinions (both positive and negative) holds a lot more weight than, say, the opinions of the same dozen fans over on Gateworld who complain about anything and everything. Another interesting point is that, while online fandom is generally weighted toward the vocal minority, focus group testing seeks out a more balanced opinion. And, while I am personally not a fan of this approach, I was amazed by the difference in opinion between focus groups and online fandom.

http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/june-16-2008-new-crabgrass-and-vaseline-diet-yields-quick-results/


It's still not the best solution. It's not even a good one. They just got lucky it worked. After all, they'd portrayed her so badly people hated her before. Shoving her down out throats with the same portrayal would make us hate her more.

They just managed to write her better. In fact, I dislike her less. However, her artifical and badly written ship with Rodney still makes me dislike her because of the relationship we're stuck watching.

I think the fact that they decided to try and find a 'solution' at all shows a degree of respect in itself.

rarocks24
December 1st, 2008, 07:33 AM
Because when it comes down to it, we're just viewers. We just happen to like the show a lot.

Not disagreeing with this.


So if a disproportionately large chunk of the fanbase thinks something, it's not that much of a stretch to assume that maybe, just maybe the viewership in general shares the same view.

Your evidence for this? A few people who hate Keller are vocal here about it, and since some others aren't, immediately all of Gateworld hates Keller?


Why, because we think? Because we don't watch the each episode just once? Why can't be represent the average viewer? We are just that, viewers.

Yes, you are. And your voice doesn't matter. You're lucky they even pay attention and/or provide feedback with us at all.


And we know this for a fact? Show me the evidence that states that Stargate Atlantis uses focus groups, because I've never heard anything on this subject.

This is just plain common sense. All entertainment groups do this. 24 has a focus group, Prison Break has a focus group, etc, etc.


It's still not the best solution. It's not even a good one. They just got lucky it worked. After all, they'd portrayed her so badly people hated her before. Shoving her down out throats with the same portrayal would make us hate her more.

So because you and a few others are vocal about hating a character, they should immediately have killed her off? Then we'd have threads worrying about them killing Teyla off... oh wait.


They just managed to write her better. In fact, I dislike her less. However, her artifical and badly written ship with Rodney still makes me dislike her because of the relationship we're stuck watching.

Sorry to say, but it seems like any ship that isn't McShep tends to be artifical and contrived and poorly written for you.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 07:37 AM
Because people on this forum are a hell of a lot more fanatical about the show than the average viewer. The average viewer won't have developed such an attachment to Carson, that any replacement would be met with immediate disdain, for example. Now I'm not saying everyone who hates the character does so because of Carson, but there are definitely people who do.
In my past posts in this thread, I made it clear I am not one of these people. I also think they're idiots for disliking Jennifer just because she's Carson's replacement.

However, the reasons for why people hated/disliked Jennifer in Season 4 were many, real and credible. The writers ignored them all and just went "Tough luck, here's more!".


Answer: True. I don’t think anyone should dismiss the response of online fans. But what you read on the forums must be taken with a grain of salt.
But that is not what was done. Either the writers ignored what was said on the forums completely or acknowledged it and though the solution would be to just add more Jennifer... much more.


As someone in that article pointed out, unhappy fans are far, far more likely to take the time to express their feelings that fans who are pleased with a show’s creative direction. Also, the opinion of fans with diverse opinions (both positive and negative) holds a lot more weight than, say, the opinions of the same dozen fans over on Gateworld who complain about anything and everything.
If they'd bothered to read the intelligent posts on why Jennifer was a badly written character, they would've realized that our complaining was justified. In fact, I think they did as many of the things we criticized were eventually fixed in season 5.

They still thought the solution to the Jennifer-hate was to just add twice as much Jennifer-screen time.


Another interesting point is that, while online fandom is generally weighted toward the vocal minority, focus group testing seeks out a more balanced opinion. And, while I am personally not a fan of this approach, I was amazed by the difference in opinion between focus groups and online fandom.[/I]
Another important thing to keep in mind is also to keep a show well-written instead of pandering to the masses. If a group of mindless jocks like a certain episode because it features a lot of hot chicks, it doesn't mean the entire show should randomly feature more "hot chicks" just because it'd get more mindless jocks to watch the show.

So the opinions of focus groups must also be taken with a grain of salt. For one thing, who are in said focus groups? What are their credentials except for just being a random viewer? And why should their opinions really matter unless you just want to write a show that appeals to the ignorant masses?


I think the fact that they decided to try and find a 'solution' at all shows a degree of respect in itself.
The nature of the solution shows disrespect.

rarocks24
December 1st, 2008, 07:41 AM
The nature of the solution shows disrespect.

Because they didn't pander to those people who hate her character shows disrespect? That's pretty selfish.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 07:44 AM
Your evidence for this? A few people who hate Keller are vocal here about it, and since some others aren't, immediately all of Gateworld hates Keller?
Many people were very vocal about it. Many people were vocal about liking her, too. We can't just go "Well, nobody cares since they didn't number the 1000's".


Yes, you are. And your voice doesn't matter. You're lucky they even pay attention and/or provide feedback with us at all.
Yes, because, really, who cares what the average viewer thinks, right? If the average viewer hates sometimes and says they dislike the show because of it and might stop watching, nobody should care, right?

It's one thing for an online fan to dislike something because we're far more likely to stick with the show, anyway. But for a casual viewer, it's enough to make them stop watching the show altogether.

This is actually one of the important differences between a devoted fan and an average viewer.


This is just plain common sense. All entertainment groups do this. 24 has a focus group, Prison Break has a focus group, etc, etc.
Plain common sense would be not to feature a show about some guy who drug rapes his 7 or so wives. Plain common sense would tell you that "Travelers" was pretty shoddily written and detrimental to both genders. Plain common sense would tell you to not have no running plot arc throughout season 5 except for a ship.

Plain common sense isn't that common when it comes to Stargate Atlantis. And I'm not one to assume. I want proof.


So because you and a few others are vocal about hating a character, they should immediately have killed her off? Then we'd have threads worrying about them killing Teyla off... oh wait.
No, but to expressively shove more Jennifer into the show, making her the 3rd most important character as an explicitly stated solution to fans hating her, that is a bad solution.

They didn't have to kill her off. I wasn't petitioning for that. But to give us twice as much of her and expect that to be the solution? Not so much...


Sorry to say, but it seems like any ship that isn't McShep tends to be artifical and contrived and poorly written for you.
Yes, let's make up stuff to make others seem less credible, shall we? Are you saying McKeller is well written?


Because they didn't pander to those people who hate her character shows disrespect? That's pretty selfish.
How many times must I say this?

To say that the solution to get people to stop hating her for, among other things, taking up too much screen time from other characters, is to shove even more of that in there and make her even more prominent shows disrespect.

To simply not pander to us is their choice. To say "This is exactly what you don't want, but it is the solution to your dislike of the character and it'll make you like her more" is the disrespectful part.

rarocks24
December 1st, 2008, 07:54 AM
Many people were very vocal about it. Many people were vocal about liking her, too. We can't just go "Well, nobody cares since they didn't number the 1000's".

There are how many members here? Not all of them hate Keller or like Keller. I felt Keller an actually believable character in her own right. A farm girl who spends her entire life studying and never having any fun is entitled to whine.



Yes, because, really, who cares what the average viewer thinks, right? If the average viewer hates sometimes and says they dislike the show because of it and might stop watching, nobody should care, right?

It's one thing for an online fan to dislike something because we're far more likely to stick with the show, anyway. But for a casual viewer, it's enough to make them stop watching the show altogether.

This is actually one of the important differences between a devoted fan and an average viewer.

And you're presuming the average viewer is going to stop watching a show because of how poorly perceived they see a character. You know, I hate how they write one character on BSG, yet I still watch. I hate how they write one character on Desperate Housewives, but I still watch. People are entitled to their opinions, but the writers have their reasons.


Plain common sense would be not to feature a show about some guy who drug rapes his 7 or so wives. Plain common sense would tell you that "Travelers" was pretty shoddily written and detrimental to both genders. Plain common sense would tell you to not have no running plot arc throughout season 5 except for a ship.

I'm not making excuses for Irresistable and the other episode. However, I personally liked Travelers. Sorry you didn't.


Plain common sense isn't that common when it comes to Stargate Atlantis. And I'm not one to assume. I want proof.

What's common sense to another is not common sense to another.


No, but to expressively shove more Jennifer into the show, making her the 3rd most important character as an explicitly stated solution to fans hating her, that is a bad solution.

In your opinion. You're making the presumption the average character hates her or cares.


They didn't have to kill her off. I wasn't petitioning for that. But to give us twice as much of her and expect that to be the solution? Not so much...

And people just leave the show willingly? Other than Kavanaugh, almost all the characters that are no longer around tend to be six feet under at the moment.


Yes, let's make up stuff to make others seem less credible, shall we? Are you saying McKeller is well written?

I'm indifferent.


How many times must I say this?

To say that the solution to get people to stop hating her for, among other things, taking up too much screen time from other characters, is to shove even more of that in there and make her even more prominent shows disrespect.

You're again making the presumption that the writers should pander to you, a very vocal fan.


To simply not pander to us is their choice. To say "This is exactly what you don't want, but it is the solution to your dislike of the character and it'll make you like her more" is the disrespectful part.

And yet you admit you dislike her less. So you're pissed that they went ahead and decided to write her character slightly better than before, and even worse, that it's working?

fuchsia
December 1st, 2008, 08:03 AM
Some people like Keller some people don't.
I happen to like her and I like her with McKay.
So it looks like things are going my way:)... for the moment, anyway;).

I would dispute that more people hate her than love her, if only because there is no real proof for either standpoint.

Plus, I don't really mind what everyone else thinks:o... I guess I'm in the minority there!

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 08:05 AM
There are how many members here? Not all of them hate Keller or like Keller. I felt Keller an actually believable character in her own right. A farm girl who spends her entire life studying and never having any fun is entitled to whine.
Stop strawmanning my posts into infinity.

I never said "all" of them hate Keller. I didn't even say "a majority of them" (though I write that it was possible that a majority of the fans on GW hated her, key word here being "possible").

Also, there were many aspects of her being an unrealistic character that didn't involve her whining. Don't decide what I or others thought were "unrealistic" and then refute it.


And you're presuming the average viewer is going to stop watching a show because of how poorly perceived they see a character.
"How poorly perceived they see a character" =/= "How poorly they perceive a character".

If they are already on the edge and see a character they really dislike on the show, it might push them over. Just the mere fact that a few character they really dislike is added might push them over the edge.

The average viewer is fickle. They do not have any ties to the show. They aren't longtime fans that have been watching the show for years. They might even have just tuned in for that specific episode or for that specific season.

If they see things they dislike, you bet your tuchas they'll quit much faster than a devoted fan will quit.

I also never said that Jennifer alone would be enough to make people quit watching the show. It'd just be one factor.


You know, I hate how they write one character on BSG, yet I still watch. I hate how they write one character on Desperate Housewives, but I still watch. People are entitled to their opinions, but the writers have their reasons.
But you're not the average fickle viewer, now are you?


I'm not making excuses for Irresistable and the other episode. However, I personally liked Travelers. Sorry you didn't.
I liked everything about "Traveler" except the parts with the sexual tension and flirting in it. I've made this very clear on many occasions.


What's common sense to another is not common sense to another.
Didn't I just say this? Just because it's common sense to have focus groups for other shows does not mean SGA has one (or several).


In your opinion. You're making the presumption the average character hates her or cares.
You're making the assumption that not a large portion of the average viewership care or hate her.


And people just leave the show willingly? Other than Kavanaugh, almost all the characters that are no longer around tend to be six feet under at the moment.
Many characters leave the show just like that. It's called rotating. Stackhouse or Markham just disappeared, I think. The other got injured, but nothing fatal. Cadman just had a change of positions. Katie transferred back to Earth (I think). Hey, Sam was transferred back to Earth.

It is not at all that uncommon for characters to leave through transfer.


You're again making the presumption that the writers should pander to you, a very vocal fan.
No, I am not. You're still not reading what I'm saying. The fact is that they were trying to pander to me. They tried to "fix" my problem with Jennifer by adding more of her and saying that it should fix the problem.

It didn't. It's a horrible solution to the problem. It didn't work. What worked was the new way the character was portrayed.


And yet you admit you dislike her less. So you're pissed that they went ahead and decided to write her character slightly better than before, and even worse, that it's working?
I do not dislike her less because she's been shoved into the show more. I dislike her less because of the way she's written now. The fact that she's ever present and wall flowers so many other characters makes me like her less, but the better writing of her character makes he dislike her less.

This is this and that is that.

Mongoletsi
December 1st, 2008, 08:15 AM
I fail to see what anybody has against the Keller character.

Is it because she replaced Beckitt?

I thought she was ace in Firefly; she's brought some of those characteristics to SGA too.

rarocks24
December 1st, 2008, 08:18 AM
Stop strawmanning my posts into infinity.

Oh, you think I'm being mean. Dude, I'm seriously struggling to not call you out.


I never said "all" of them hate Keller. I didn't even say "a majority of them" (though I write that it was possible that a majority of the fans on GW hated her, key word here being "possible").

I could twist this so badly, but I'm not. Because I'm trying to be nice.


Also, there were many aspects of her being an unrealistic character that didn't involve her whining. Don't decide what I or others thought were "unrealistic" and then refute it.

Hmm, I don't believe I called anyone out on what they thought was realistic or unrealistic. I just said I felt her character was believable.


"How poorly perceived they see a character" =/= "How poorly they perceive a character".

Slight grammatical error.


If they are already on the edge and see a character they really dislike on the show, it might push them over. Just the mere fact that a few character they really dislike is added might push them over the edge.

SGA's ratings show otherwise.


The average viewer is fickle. They do not have any ties to the show. They aren't longtime fans that have been watching the show for years. They might even have just tuned in for that specific episode or for that specific season.

Yes, I believe that's what an average viewer is.


If they see things they dislike, you bet your tuchas they'll quit much faster than a devoted fan will quit.

I disagree. They won't care. Because they don't have the involvement in the show as you.


But you're not the average fickle viewer, now are you?

Nope.


I liked everything about "Traveler" except the parts with the sexual tension and flirting in it. I've made this very clear on many occasions.

So you decide to include Travelers in the same sentence as a rant about Irresistable and Irresponsible? Or perhaps your myriad of complaint threads per episode?


Didn't I just say this? Just because it's common sense to have focus groups for other shows does not mean SGA has one (or several).

No you didn't.


You're making the assumption that not a large portion of the average viewership care or hate her.

True.


No, I am not. You're still not reading what I'm saying. The fact is that they were trying to pander to me. They tried to "fix" my problem with Jennifer by adding more of her and saying that it should fix the problem.

It didn't. It's a horrible solution to the problem. It didn't work. What worked was the new way the character was portrayed.

I do not dislike her less because she's been shoved into the show more. I dislike her less because of the way she's written now. The fact that she's ever present and wall flowers so many other characters makes me like her less, but the better writing of her character makes he dislike her less.

This is this and that is that.

So you hate her less or hate her more? You say two different things.

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 08:23 AM
In my past posts in this thread, I made it clear I am not one of these people. I also think they're idiots for disliking Jennifer just because she's Carson's replacement.

However, the reasons for why people hated/disliked Jennifer in Season 4 were many, real and credible. The writers ignored them all and just went "Tough luck, here's more!".

But that is not what was done. Either the writers ignored what was said on the forums completely or acknowledged it and though the solution would be to just add more Jennifer... much more.

The response was mixed, why should they listen to the people whining about Keller over the people who liked her?



If they'd bothered to read the intelligent posts on why Jennifer was a badly written character, they would've realized that our complaining was justified. In fact, I think they did as many of the things we criticized were eventually fixed in season 5.

You seem to be forgetting all the people who like Keller and think she's a well-written character. There may be intelligent criticisms of Keller out there, but I'm yet to read any, and I'm sure I spend more time here than the writers, the most thoughtful they seem to get is something along the lines of 'OMFG She's so whiney da writers r idiots!!!11one1'.



They still thought the solution to the Jennifer-hate was to just add twice as much Jennifer-screen time.

And it worked, to an extent.


Another important thing to keep in mind is also to keep a show well-written instead of pandering to the masses. If a group of mindless jocks like a certain episode because it features a lot of hot chicks, it doesn't mean the entire show should randomly feature more "hot chicks" just because it'd get more mindless jocks to watch the show.

Think about what you've just said, now apply that reasoning to your stance on Keller.


So the opinions of focus groups must also be taken with a grain of salt. For one thing, who are in said focus groups? What are their credentials except for just being a random viewer? And why should their opinions really matter unless you just want to write a show that appeals to the ignorant masses?

Uh, Stargate is a product. If they could trade in every online fan for 2 two 'ignorant' ones they'd do it in a heartbeat. Numbers are what matter, you're no more important than a random off the street, and the sooner people realise that the better.



The nature of the solution shows disrespect.

No it doesn't.

aboleyn24
December 1st, 2008, 08:27 AM
Rephrasal: A large portion of the fanbase hated her.

Why did I mention this? Although I forgot to elaborate earlier, I mentioned it because this was a key reason referenced by Mallozzi for why Jennifer's role was expanded this season. Yes, the reason why Jennifer got a bigger role and more screen time and character development than Teyla and Ronon combined most of the time was because many fans hated her.

The writers thought the solution was to force her down our throats.


A large portion of the fanbase hated Jennifer. Many of us didn't hate her for what she was (a Carson replacement) but for who she was (her character, her portrayal, her screen-time, etc.).

It is disrespectful to, in response to this, throw more of her our way and explicitly tell us that it was the "solution". Mallozzi didn't just go "The writers like Jennifer and decided to expand her role".

He went "The fans didn't like her. So we came up with the solution of doubling her screen time! Because obviously, people will like her now!". That is not only saying "The opinions of the fans, no matter how largely shared it might be (and many people hated/disliked Jennifer, if not a majority then close to 50/50), do not matter". It's saying "We don't only not care about the fact you dislike her, but we'll make you like her!".

Mallozzi tends to be rather sarcastic. I highly doubt he really meant those comments. I admit I fell for the one about only submitting Jewel Staite for an award to find later he was joking and admitted they submitted quite a few cast members and only she got nominated (which was out of his control). He has a tendency to respond to comments on his blog in a way to create more controversy. I am sure they wrote more Keller into SGA because that was what they wanted, not because they wanted to annoy the Keller haters.

I think most show runners and writers should write to their particular vision. I am not saying fan input should be totally ignored, but honestly there are so many diverse opinions out there it would be impossible to take them all into consideration. The best they can do is write what they want and watch the numbers. If they are consistently losing viewers than obvioulsy that story line isn't working (I'm looking at you Heroes) but if the numbers stay steady or go up they just go with their vision.

As others have said people or fans that are unhappy tend to be far more vocal than happy people. Those who have a bad experience with a store or restaurant tend to tell atleast ten others about it while those that had a good one tend to tell only two. Just because there are quite a few people here at GW who hate Keller doesn't mean that the larger viewing public feels the same way. I for one do not hate her. She is certainly not my favorite character, but she doesn't bother me in the least and I am a huge fan of the actress who plays her. Her relationship with McKay doesn't please me or aggravate me. Its just one portion of the show and with only a few episodes left I doubt it will be all that time consuming. If it turns up in the movie it won't bother me either.

Cautious Explorer
December 1st, 2008, 08:32 AM
I fail to see what anybody has against the Keller character.

Is it because she replaced Beckitt?

I thought she was ace in Firefly; she's brought some of those characteristics to SGA too.

There are numerous posts all over the forum. No, it's not just because she replaced Beckett -- as has been stated many, many times already.

I watched Firely too. Kaylee was fine, but Keller doesn't come close to fine IMO.


The response was mixed, why should they listen to the people whining about Keller over the people who liked her?

Expressing a negative opinion is automatically whining now? What about people who can't get over other people disliking certain characters? Maybe they should stop "whining".



You seem to be forgetting all the people who like Keller and think she's a well-written character. There may be intelligent criticisms of Keller out there, but I'm yet to read any, and I'm sure I spend more time here than the writers, the most thoughtful they seem to get is something along the lines of 'OMFG She's so whiney da writers r idiots!!!11one1'.

Maybe you weren't able to comprehend them, because I've seen plenty. Just because you disagree with other people's opinions doesn't meen they've expressed them in an ignorant fashion.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 08:35 AM
There are numerous posts all over the forum. No, it's not just because she replaced Beckett -- as has been stated many, many times already.

I've seen this stated, many times. Rarely though, do they continue do explain why they do dislike her character. Would you care to expand on this?

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 08:37 AM
Are you asking Cautious Explorer.....or everyone?

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 08:38 AM
Expressing a negative opinion is automatically whining now? What about people who can't get over other people disliking certain characters? Maybe they should stop "whining".

No, it's not. Whining is still whining.


Maybe you weren't able to comprehend them, because I've seen plenty.

Maybe, or maybe I have higher standards for what qualifies as intelligent. Either way I haven't seen any.



Just because you disagree with other people's opinions doesn't meen they've expressed them in an ignorant fashion.

I haven't said anything to suggest that I think that that's the case, you're jumping to conclusions.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 08:40 AM
Are you asking Cautious Explorer.....or everyone?

I was asking actually thinking of Cautious Explorer specifically but I'd don't have anything against anyone else expressing their opinions of the subject. :D

I was going to say if everyone posted their reasons then we'd b swamping the actual topic of the thread but anti-Keller pretty much is the topic of the thread. (A good proportion of Anti-McKeller stuff I've seen is simply Anti-Keller by another name)

Cautious Explorer
December 1st, 2008, 08:40 AM
I've seen this stated, many times. Rarely though, do they continue do explain why they do dislike her character. Would you care to expand on this?

Oh, you tempt me. I could write books.

Check out the Anti-Keller thread. That's a good place to start.

She's dull, self-centered, whiny, takes time away from more interesting characters, isn't convincing as CMO (too insecure, too young, too childish, has absolutely no air of authority), too much time spent on her doubts, foibles and her lovelife, she gasps and quavers every line of dialog and I'm tired of seeing the new hairstyle of the week.

There's a start.;)

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 08:46 AM
Hmm, I don't believe I called anyone out on what they thought was realistic or unrealistic. I just said I felt her character was believable.
I'm sorry, what exactly did you mean by "believable" if not "realistic"?


SGA's ratings show otherwise.
Mean how they'd increasingly decreased?


I disagree. They won't care. Because they don't have the involvement in the show as you.
I disagree. They will care. Because if the show is not entertaining to them, they will stop watching. Because if they feel annoyed by 1000 little things, they will stop watching. Devoted fans will stand for more than the average viewer before they stop watching.


So you decide to include Travelers in the same sentence as a rant about Irresistable and Irresponsible? Or perhaps your myriad of complaint threads per episode?
Yes, because the sexual tension subplot was so ever-present that it qualified "Travelers" as a badly written episode.


No you didn't.
Me: Common sense isn't always common.
You: Common sense isn't always common.

Just because it's common sense to have focus groups does not mean SGA has some. Show me proof of there existing regular SGA focus groups.


So you hate her less or hate her more? You say two different things.
I hate her less because of the way she is written. I hate her more for other reasons. Overall, she's very tolerable for me now as a character, so I overall hate her less.

But it is not for the reasons the PTB stated they think I should hate her less for. Had she continued to be written the same way, I would hate her more.

This is this and that is that. Their decision to include her more makes he hate her more. So in that respect, it failed.


The response was mixed, why should they listen to the people whining about Keller over the people who liked her?
They shouldn't. That is not the problem. I've said this many times:
It was not a problem that they didn't listen to us. We cannot demand they do.

But they did listen to us, however. The problem was their solution to our complaints! They listened to us, not a problem. The way they responded, was.


You seem to be forgetting all the people who like Keller and think she's a well-written character. There may be intelligent criticisms of Keller out there, but I'm yet to read any, and I'm sure I spend more time here than the writers, the most thoughtful they seem to get is something along the lines of 'OMFG She's so whiney da writers r idiots!!!11one1'.
Read the right threads and the right posts. Also, stop "interpreting" posts. You're still claiming I said the writers should listen to the fans, that it's some kind of requirement when I've never said such a thing.


And it worked, to an extent.
And you know this how? How many people have said "I dislike Jennifer Keller less now that she's gotten so much screen time" instead of "I dislike Jennifer Keller less now because of the improvement in the way her character is written"?


Think about what you've just said, now apply that reasoning to your stance on Keller.
And? My view is that it's a badly written relationship. This is not in any way because I'm a Slasher. I know that Slash will never be canon on Stargate. I know that it's all a fantasy.

I can still view relationships objectively and objectively speaking, it's a very badly written ship.


Uh, Stargate is a product. If they could trade in every online fan for 2 two 'ignorant' ones they'd do it in a heartbeat.
If you're writing a show not to write a good show but because you just want to make money, then maybe you should take a second look at yourself.


Numbers are what matter, you're no more important than a random off the street, and the sooner people realise that the better.
I never said this. My argument was that they should be writing the show to write a good show, not to appeal to as many mindless viewers as possible. Just because X amount of viewers might like it doesn't mean they should keep on doing it if they like it "for the wrong reasons".


No it doesn't.
"You dislike her. Our solution is to shove so much of her down your throat you'll either stop watching or like her!". Lots of respect there.


Stuff.
If it was declared sarcasm tomorrow, then it would no longer be a problem for me.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 08:47 AM
Oh, you tempt me. I could write books.

Check out the Anti-Keller thread. That's a good place to start.

She's dull, self-centered, whiny, takes time away from more interesting characters, isn't convincing as CMO (too insecure, too young, too childish, has absolutely no air of authority), too much time spent on her doubts, foibles and her lovelife, she gasps and quavers every line of dialog and I'm tired of seeing the new hairstyle of the week.

There's a start.;)



I would try and read the anti-keller thread but I dislike any threads that are devoted exclusively to a single view point; they tend to have a very low signal to noise ratio.

I didn't ask you why, so I could try and refute you, but I will say something on the 'confidence as CMO' issue, I thought "Adrift" made it pretty clear that this was supposed to be an actual facet of her character: she was just a regular Doctor and Researcher until Carson got exploded, and didn't think she was ready to step up to the top spot as it were.

Of course this would imply that she had been on Altantis for quite a while, just working offscreen, later episodes seem to imply she was new to Atlantis.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 08:50 AM
Ah....

The old "The Writers should/shouldn't care what the fans think" debate mixed in with the classic "Your view is/isn't vaild because..." debate.

:: munches on popcorn ::

I wonder what this has to to with McKeller lasting/not lasting a long time?

I wonder if the other millions of casual viewers actually care?

Stormtrooper
December 1st, 2008, 08:58 AM
People keep avoiding the subject, but truth is, Staite isn't a very good actress. I think it all comes down to that. If they had cast that other Firefly girl as the doctor, I doubt there would have been such a huge rejection for the Keller character. Either way, the show is dead now.

jenks
December 1st, 2008, 09:01 AM
People keep avoiding the subject, but truth is, Staite isn't a very good actress. I think it all comes down to that. If they had cast that other Firefly girl as the doctor, I doubt there would have been such a huge rejection for the Keller character. Either way, the show is dead now.

I don't think anyone is avoiding anything, even most of the anti-Keller fans would disagree with that.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 09:06 AM
I didn't ask you why, so I could try and refute you, but I will say something on the 'confidence as CMO' issue, I thought "Adrift" made it pretty clear that this was supposed to be an actual facet of her character: she was just a regular Doctor and Researcher until Carson got exploded, and didn't think she was ready to step up to the top spot as it were.

Of course this would imply that she had been on Altantis for quite a while, just working offscreen, later episodes seem to imply she was new to Atlantis.
The realistic thing to do in this situation would be to, you know, replace her eventually, not randomly make her CMO despite her still not being ready or confident enough.


I don't think anyone is avoiding anything, even most of the anti-Keller fans would disagree with that.
I have no opinion on how good an actress Jewel Staite is. I'll assume she's pretty good unless her character isn't supposed to be portrayed the way she's portraying her at all.

I do not fault Staite for Jennifer Keller's character, she can only work with what she's dealt by the writers.

Skydiver
December 1st, 2008, 09:07 AM
Let's make points please without calling others opinions stupid or any such word

Briangate78
December 1st, 2008, 09:17 AM
Either way, the show is dead now.

Dead to you maybe.

fuchsia
December 1st, 2008, 09:24 AM
Sblade, I'm pretty sure your last post is against forum rules.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 09:34 AM
Dead to you maybe.
No, the show is irrefutably dead (in 3 weeks time) unless it's revived at a later date. The show is dead. The Atlantis franchise is not (movies).

rarocks24
December 1st, 2008, 09:52 AM
I'm sorry, what exactly did you mean by "believable" if not "realistic"?

My feelings =/= equate to others. I feel she's believable. Never assumed others should feel my way.


Mean how they'd increasingly decreased?

Last time I checked, numbers have been increasing this season.


I disagree. They will care. Because if the show is not entertaining to them, they will stop watching. Because if they feel annoyed by 1000 little things, they will stop watching. Devoted fans will stand for more than the average viewer before they stop watching.

One or two might, but there's not going to be some serious watcher loss because of it.


Yes, because the sexual tension subplot was so ever-present that it qualified "Travelers" as a badly written episode.

You like Travelers, you don't like Travelers, you like Travelers, you don't like Travelers... what do you do? Say you like something when it suits you, and then hate something when it suits you? Make up your mind. And who the **** cares if they decide to sneak in a little sexual tension. I'd flirt with Larrin myself.


I hate her less because of the way she is written. I hate her more for other reasons. Overall, she's very tolerable for me now as a character, so I overall hate her less.

You were attacking her for how the powers that be were writing her. Now that they're writing her slightly better now, you admit she has improved? If you dislike a character, simply state you like a character, don't throw out I hate her more because of this but dislike her less of this, so overall I hate her less crap". It's confusing.
But it is not for the reasons the PTB stated they think I should hate her less for. Had she continued to be written the same way, I would hate her more.


This is this and that is that. Their decision to include her more makes he hate her more. So in that respect, it failed.

So since you didn't want to have more of her, and they're writing her better, they very obviously weren't pandering to you.


They shouldn't. That is not the problem. I've said this many times:
It was not a problem that they didn't listen to us. We cannot demand they do.

That's not what you said a few posts ago, where you said people at Gateworld should influence TPTB's decisions because we're "die-hard" and more likely to keep watching. And you said it was insulting because they did it in a way that you didn't like.


But they did listen to us, however. The problem was their solution to our complaints! They listened to us, not a problem. The way they responded, was.

Boo hoo, they didn't act the way you and other anti-Keller fans acted. Again we come down to your belief that they should. Make up your mind about it.


Read the right threads and the right posts. Also, stop "interpreting" posts. You're still claiming I said the writers should listen to the fans, that it's some kind of requirement when I've never said such a thing.

BECAUSE YOU ARE!


And you know this how? How many people have said "I dislike Jennifer Keller less now that she's gotten so much screen time" instead of "I dislike Jennifer Keller less now because of the improvement in the way her character is written"?

And you know that they don't?


If you're writing a show not to write a good show but because you just want to make money, then maybe you should take a second look at yourself.

I wouldn't listen to a group of vocal fans spamming web forums stating how much they hate a character or don't hate a character.


"You dislike her. Our solution is to shove so much of her down your throat you'll either stop watching or like her!". Lots of respect there.

So you're still maintaining that they somehow magically disrespected you because they decided to take a character in a different way than you wanted to, when you're admitting they shouldn't be swayed?

Maybe if you wrote clear and concise statements, and weren't wishy washy about what you wrote, and more polite and less condescending to others, people would do the same to you.

By the way, in case anyone wants to know, I'm indifferent to Keller. I don't dislike or like her character. Take with that what you will.

TameFarrar
December 1st, 2008, 10:09 AM
Sblade, I'm pretty sure your last post is against forum rules.

Actually it isn't. Folks are allowed to state whether or not they feel a person is a good or bad actor. That is a critique on the person's chosen profession when they choose to become an actor.

What would be in violation would be an attack on Jewel as a person.

TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator

stclare
December 1st, 2008, 10:17 AM
I hope the mckeller lasts into the movies, but not as the main plot. I would like some reference to it still being there but with the movie being 2hrs? long I dont think the writers will devote much time to it which is fine by me :)

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 10:22 AM
My feelings =/= equate to others. I feel she's believable. Never assumed others should feel my way.
Fine. Then we're not in disagreement over this.


Last time I checked, numbers have been increasing this season.
I haven't kept up. Maybe they have.


One or two might, but there's not going to be some serious watcher loss because of it.
Obviously you do not know how the average viewer and zapper operates. Why would the average viewer be more loyal to shows than the devoted fan? My argument here is that the average viewer will switch shows faster than the average fan.


You like Travelers, you don't like Travelers, you like Travelers, you don't like Travelers... what do you do? Say you like something when it suits you, and then hate something when it suits you? Make up your mind. And who the **** cares if they decide to sneak in a little sexual tension. I'd flirt with Larrin myself.
I never said I liked "Travelers" as a whole. I said that I liked everything about it except one part... which made it tip over to "Bad" IMO. In other words, I dislike it for that one, in my opinion, shoddily written part.


You were attacking her for how the powers that be were writing her. Now that they're writing her slightly better now, you admit she has improved? If you dislike a character, simply state you like a character, don't throw out I hate her more because of this but dislike her less of this, so overall I hate her less crap". It's confusing.
Why? If I say it all in one single paragraph, why would it be confusing? I specifically stated that at the end of the day, I hate her less overall than before.


So since you didn't want to have more of her, and they're writing her better, they very obviously weren't pandering to you.
But according to Joe, their solution to making "the haters" like her more was to shove more of her in there. If this is true, then it was a stupid solution.


That's not what you said a few posts ago, where you said people at Gateworld should influence TPTB's decisions because we're "die-hard" and more likely to keep watching.
Quotes or it never happened.


And you said it was insulting because they did it in a way that you didn't like.
No, I didn't. I said that the way they did it in was insulting to the fans, not because we disliked it, but because it was insulting. To say "You dislike this character. The solution to make you like her more is to shove more of her down your throat!" is insulting.


Boo hoo, they didn't act the way you and other anti-Keller fans acted. Again we come down to your belief that they should. Make up your mind about it.
No. They gave us an insulting solution to our problem. Stop "interpreting" my posts in your mind, please.


BECAUSE YOU ARE!
Quotes or it didn't happen.


And you know that they don't?
I haven't claimed that they don't. You claim they do. There's a difference here. I assume there aren't many who have started liking more just because there's more of her on-screen now. But I would never state it as if it were a fact.


I wouldn't listen to a group of vocal fans spamming web forums stating how much they hate a character or don't hate a character.
That wasn't the argument. The argument was whether or not to listen to the viewership at large, as if it the viewership at large is content, then anything goes.

It was unconnected to the Jennifer Keller case but instead connected to the argument of focus groups and the viewership at large.


So you're still maintaining that they somehow magically disrespected you because they decided to take a character in a different way than you wanted to, when you're admitting they shouldn't be swayed?
No. Read... my... lips! It's not that they took her in a different way.

It's that they explicitly told us that their solution to make us, the fans who specifically disliked her like her more was to shove more of her down our throats.

It's pretty much "You don't like her? Well, we'll force you to watch so much of her, you'll have to like her or just stop watching the show altogether!".


Maybe if you wrote clear and concise statements, and weren't wishy washy about what you wrote, and more polite and less condescending to others, people would do the same to you.
My politeness and condescending attitude have nothing to do with whether or not people should be able to simply read what I state without interpreting 1 million things into them.

And no matter how clear and concise my posts are, you and others seem to still misinterpret them, somehow.

Briangate78
December 1st, 2008, 10:24 AM
Actually it isn't. Folks are allowed to state whether or not they feel a person is a good or bad actor. That is a critique on the person's chosen profession when they choose to become an actor.

What would be in violation would be an attack on Jewel as a person.

TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator

Wouldn't be more proper and polite to say "I don't care for her acting" rather than saying she is a bad actress? Calling her acting bad would be a critique, calling her a bad actress would seem like an attack. But that is just the way I roll. :p

fuchsia
December 1st, 2008, 10:36 AM
People keep avoiding the subject, but truth is, Staite isn't a very good actress. I think it all comes down to that. If they had cast that other Firefly girl as the doctor, I doubt there would have been such a huge rejection for the Keller character. Either way, the show is dead now.


Sblade, I'm pretty sure your last post is against forum rules.


Actually it isn't. Folks are allowed to state whether or not they feel a person is a good or bad actor. That is a critique on the person's chosen profession when they choose to become an actor.

What would be in violation would be an attack on Jewel as a person.

TameFarrar
GateWorld Moderator

Sorry, sblade, I stand corrected.
Thanks TF for the clarification.

Dr Lee
December 1st, 2008, 10:44 AM
As someone in that article pointed out, unhappy fans are far, far more likely to take the time to express their feelings that fans who are pleased with a show’s creative direction.

IMHO this is the only reason why the anti-kellers are so noisy on here.

And i add myself to the list of posters who believe the only/original reason why ppl hate Keller is cuz she replaced carson, and i don't believe for one moment that a different actor/actress would have been treated differently to Staite if they had got the role as 'Carson replacer'.

Just to say that the show is dead cuz of MGM not any actress.... as i saw was being hinted at a while back in here.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 10:47 AM
IMHO this is the only reason why the anti-kellers are so noisy on here.

And i add myself to the list of posters who believe the only/original reason why ppl hate Keller is cuz she replaced carson, and i don't believe for one moment that a different actor/actress would have been treated differently to Staite if they had got the role as 'Carson replacer'.
I, and many others, gave her a fair chance. I didn't even have that many attachments to Carson. She still bombed with me.


Just to say that the show is dead cuz of MGM not any actress.... as i saw was being hinted at a while back in here.
No it wasn't. The poster said that it doesn't matter now, since the show was dead, as in nothing matters since the show's over.

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 11:08 AM
I am shocked at the arrogance of the statements that ALL Keller haters hate her because she replaced Carson is just amazing!

I am in awe of the blanket remarks TELLING ME as A Keller hater WHY I hate her!

How GRACIOUS of the people for telling me how I feel! Thank You So MUCH!

I loath Keller because she has no ETHICS!

In Missing She just tells Teyla that she just prescribed Rodney medicine for his Restless Leg Syndrome! WTF????? What ever happened to doctor patient confidence? That is the kind of stuff you need a warrant for. Keller just blabbs it like she is telling Teyla what she had for lunch!

The whole of the Shrine made me loath her even more! Her whole attitude was lacking in keeping her medical distance to Rodney, Her behaving the way she did was just mindboggling to the doctor/patient relationship. I don't think TPTB even took into concideration the problems that can happen when Doctors start dating their patients!

Those are just two reasons of Why I don't like her!

Mitchell82
December 1st, 2008, 11:11 AM
Well it obviously won't last too long with the show ending but I hope that they stay together after the finale and into the movies. They are a perfect match IMO.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:13 AM
Stuff.
Now, now, those are valid reasons for hating her. And I'm pretty sure it's because the writers are bad writers who don't double- or even first check their facts.

I doubt they've asked a single doctor on how to portray a realistic doctor. And, yes, she was wholly unprofessional in "The Shrine", yet no one called her on it. Pft.

The mere fact that she admitted to having neglected to notice something was wrong before it was too late because she liked the way the new Rodney behaved and was treating her shows that she had let her personal feelings get the best of her and endangered the life of a patient because of this!

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 11:16 AM
The mere fact that she admitted to having neglected to notice something was wrong before it was too late because she liked the way the new Rodney behaved and was treating her shows that she had let her personal feelings get the best of her and endangered the life of a patient because of this!

This is just ridiculous. Somehow not immediately realising that your friend is being nicer and more open than previously is a symptom of having an evil bug in his head is negligence now?

Mitchell82
December 1st, 2008, 11:17 AM
I am shocked at the arrogance of the statements that ALL Keller haters hate her because she replaced Carson is just amazing!

I am in awe of the blanket remarks TELLING ME as A Keller hater WHY I hate her!

How GRACIOUS of the people for telling me how I feel! Thank You So MUCH!
I will have to agree with you about those remarks but I don't agree with your assessment.


I loath Keller because she has no ETHICS!

In Missing She just tells Teyla that she just prescribed Rodney medicine for his Restless Leg Syndrome! WTF????? What ever happened to doctor patient confidence? That is the kind of stuff you need a warrant for. Keller just blabbs it like she is telling Teyla what she had for lunch!
That's a stretch. She was simply stating that he i a hypochondriac, which he is and that she had to yet again treat him for something new. It was just idal talk that's it. She didn't reveal any personal information. If she said what she perscribed you might have a point but IMO I disagree.


The whole of the Shrine made me loath her even more! Her whole attitude was lacking in keeping her medical distance to Rodney, Her behaving the way she did was just mindboggling to the doctor/patient relationship. I don't think TPTB even took into concideration the problems that can happen when Doctors start dating their patients!
How exactly?

Dr Lee
December 1st, 2008, 11:21 AM
Yea she missed it at first......But who was the only one to actualy want to save McKay rather than put him through the torture of having 24 hours of his brain back and knowing it's his last?

Thats right.... Keller. Everyone else was quite happy to put him through that hell just so they could selfishly have a bit more time with McKay

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:27 AM
This is just ridiculous. Somehow not immediately realising that your friend is being nicer and more open than previously is a symptom of having an evil bug in his head is negligence now?
He was completely different... all of a sudden... right after suffering from the flu in the Pegasus galaxy. And it wasn't just with her but in general.

When someone goes through a random, sudden and unexplained personality change in the Pegasus galaxy, you raise questions. It could be anything from brain parasites to alien posessions. It's the friggin' Pegasus galaxy!

I doubt she would've taken so long to realize something was up if he hadn't been courting her with his new-found niceness.

Likewise, when Richard Woolsey started acting strangely and talking to imaginary people in "Remnants", she just prescribed him pills... after "The Shrine"! This is a woman who apparently doesn't care that she's currently in the Pegasus galaxy where any little anomaly could be fatal.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:29 AM
That's a stretch. She was simply stating that he i a hypochondriac, which he is and that she had to yet again treat him for something new. It was just idal talk that's it. She didn't reveal any personal information. If she said what she perscribed you might have a point but IMO I disagree.
She stated he had come to her with restless leg syndrome and that she had prescribed him medicine (or was it a placebo) for it. This alone goes against doctor-patient confidentiality.

And if she actually prescribed him medicine, heh?! Medicine to treat restless leg syndrome? What is she, a pill shiller now? Richard gets sent in for talking to air and behaving strangely, she does a scan and gives him sleeping pills.

As Rodney would put it: Did she get her degree from a cereal box?!

Mitchell82
December 1st, 2008, 11:30 AM
He was completely different... all of a sudden... right after suffering from the flu in the Pegasus galaxy. And it wasn't just with her but in general.

When someone goes through a random, sudden and unexplained personality change in the Pegasus galaxy, you raise questions. It could be anything from brain parasites to alien posessions. It's the friggin' Pegasus galaxy!

I doubt she would've taken so long to realize something was up if he hadn't been courting her with his new-found niceness.
It's understandable she loves him and was smitten I an understand why she didn't think about it being an infection.


Likewise, when Richard Woolsey started acting strangely and talking to imaginary people in "Remnants", she just prescribed him pills... after "The Shrine"! This is a woman who apparently doesn't care that she's currently in the Pegasus galaxy where any little anomaly could be fatal.
He was seeing something that wasn't there she acted correctly.

Mitchell82
December 1st, 2008, 11:35 AM
She stated he had come to her with restless leg syndrome and that she had prescribed him medicine (or was it a placebo) for it. This alone goes against doctor-patient confidentiality.

And if she actually prescribed him medicine, heh?! Medicine to treat restless leg syndrome? What is she, a pill shiller now? Richard gets sent in for talking to air and behaving strangely, she does a scan and gives him sleeping pills.

As Rodney would put it: Did she get her degree from a cereal box?!
It's still a stretch. Yes if you go by the book yes it's against doctor paitent confidentialy and if this was a discussion with a complete stranger yes I'd agree but this was a casual discussion with a friend who knows all to well the many sides of Rodney. A minor breach like this is not a big deal as doctors in situtaions where they treat the same patients day in and day out, (military bases for example) develop friendships with their patients and they do talk from time to time. This is not as big of a deal as you and others make it out to be.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:39 AM
It's understandable she loves him and was smitten I an understand why she didn't think about it being an infection.
But that is the point! If she hadn't had any feelings for him, she wouldn't have let that cloud her judgment and she would have realized something was up!

This was her letting her personal feelings almost kill Rodney. Not to mention the fact that we don't even know if she had feelings for him at that time. There was, after all, that whole Love Triangle BS a few episodes later.

Nonetheless, it was a case of unprofessional behavior. She didn't realize something was wrong because she liked the way he'd changed. This is bad.


He was seeing something that wasn't there she acted correctly.
No she wasn't. That's not how to treat people who see things that aren't there. You don't prescribe sleeping medication for it and then just let them go, especially not if they are the commander of Atlantis.

You send them to the shrink... immediately. By force if necessary. What if he'd gone nuts. He could've killed off the entire base in hours.


It's still a stretch. Yes if you go by the book yes it's against doctor paitent confidentialy and if this was a discussion with a complete stranger yes I'd agree but this was a casual discussion with a friend who knows all to well the many sides of Rodney. A minor breach like this is not a big deal as doctors in situtaions where they treat the same patients day in and day out, (military bases for example) develop friendships with their patients and they do talk from time to time. This is not as big of a deal as you and others make it out to be.
The rules are there for a reason. It's not for individual doctors to just arbitrarily assume when it's only a "minor" breach and it's OK!

It doesn't matter if it's a huge deal (and me and others aren't claiming it is). It's still a blatant disregard for doctor-patient confidentiality and for what? It wasn't like she did to save his life something. She did it to crack a joke, at his expense, I might add!

She broke one of the most important rules to a doctor for a trivial matter as if it didn't mean anything! The point is not whether or not it endangered his life or anything. The point is that the rules are there for a reason and you do not break them unless they're really, really necessary and even then it might be wrong!

Rac80
December 1st, 2008, 11:42 AM
I was asking actually thinking of Cautious Explorer specifically but I'd don't have anything against anyone else expressing their opinions of the subject. :D

I was going to say if everyone posted their reasons then we'd b swamping the actual topic of the thread but anti-Keller pretty much is the topic of the thread. (A good proportion of Anti-McKeller stuff I've seen is simply Anti-Keller by another name)

I AM anti-mckeller but because of MCKAY!!! how I hate that character (he's annyoying, supercillious, rude, unpleasant, whiney, a jerk, and annoying--- just a few reasons why! ;)) you need to go find MY posts!!!!

back on topic.... yep they will end cause a jerk like mckay will blow it with her the way he did with Katie! ;)

s09119
December 1st, 2008, 11:42 AM
He was completely different... all of a sudden... right after suffering from the flu in the Pegasus galaxy. And it wasn't just with her but in general.

When someone goes through a random, sudden and unexplained personality change in the Pegasus galaxy, you raise questions. It could be anything from brain parasites to alien posessions. It's the friggin' Pegasus galaxy!

I doubt she would've taken so long to realize something was up if he hadn't been courting her with his new-found niceness.

Likewise, when Richard Woolsey started acting strangely and talking to imaginary people in "Remnants", she just prescribed him pills... after "The Shrine"! This is a woman who apparently doesn't care that she's currently in the Pegasus galaxy where any little anomaly could be fatal.

And you are an expert on diseases in the Pegasus Galaxy how, again?

She's treating them correctly; as she would if she were on Earth. Just because they're in another galaxy doesn't mean she has to isolate and quarantine everyone that might possibly have a symptom of a disease we've never heard of. By your argument, I'd have everyone quarantined 24/7 because being normal could be a symptom of something!

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 11:44 AM
He was completely different... all of a sudden... right after suffering from the flu in the Pegasus galaxy. And it wasn't just with her but in general.
As far as I recall the scenes we're shown of the 'new him' are just him and Keller in the infirmary.

Do they ever defined how long it took them to cotton on? I got the impression it wasn't that long, its just the bug grows very quickly.



When someone goes through a random, sudden and unexplained personality change in the Pegasus galaxy, you raise questions. It could be anything from brain parasites to alien posessions. It's the friggin' Pegasus galaxy!

This is the Zebra syndrome. Why should Keller assume its something like that; when there are much simpler and more likely explanations? Our thoughts jump towards such convolutions because we know its a television show. Whereas those incidents only take up a very small portion of the time for the characters involved. (a lot more stuff happens off screen than on)

So why should Keller jump to worst case scenario on such flimsy evidence? He's not behaving quite like himself? When he's just been through quite an ordeal? Heaven forfend he could have been psychological affected by such things.

The first symptons were just Rodney being nicer and more open than usual in that case people would like thing: "Weird, Rodney's in a good mood today" than "OMG! Somethings Wrong! Alien possession"


I doubt she would've taken so long to realize something was up if he hadn't been courting her with his new-found niceness.
That's the implication of the scene, where Keller is obviously blaming herself, thus we should take what it she says at absolute face value.



Likewise, when Richard Woolsey started acting strangely and talking to imaginary people in "Remnants", she just prescribed him pills... after "The Shrine"! This is a woman who apparently doesn't care that she's currently in the Pegasus galaxy where any little anomaly could be fatal.

After she questioned him and he said he had the exact symptoms of something else, something she then treated. Just because Woolsey didn't give her the proper information, doesn't make her incompetent.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:45 AM
And you are an expert on diseases in the Pegasus Galaxy how, again?
The point is that in the Pegasus galaxy, you do not let people behaving strangely go just like that.


She's treating them correctly; as she would if she were on Earth. Just because they're in another galaxy doesn't mean she has to isolate and quarantine everyone that might possibly have a symptom of a disease we've never heard of. By your argument, I'd have everyone quarantined 24/7 because being normal could be a symptom of something!
O RLY? On Earth, if someone were seeing people who weren't there and conversing with thin air, the appropriate solution to this would be to prescribe them some sleeping medication?

I'd like to know what industrialized country this is a practice in.

Someone undergoes a completely personality change all of a sudden without any explanation and your prescription is... not to do anything 'til their intellect starts eroding? In what alternate universe?

Maybe in the United States... for people without medical insurance.

Mitchell82
December 1st, 2008, 11:46 AM
But that is the point! If she hadn't had any feelings for him, she wouldn't have let that cloud her judgment and she would have realized something was up!

This was her letting her personal feelings almost kill Rodney. Not to mention the fact that we don't even know if she had feelings for him at that time. There was, after all, that whole Love Triangle BS a few episodes later.

Nonetheless, it was a case of unprofessional behavior. She didn't realize something was wrong because she liked the way he'd changed. This is bad.
Very faulty logic. Everyone has personal feelings and yes we do know she had feelings for him prior to that. She had no idea what was going on and she said she might have picked up on it but then she also may not have. She really cared for Rodney hence the reason she did not want to risk his life taking him to the Shrine. She had seen nothing to indicate something was wrong other than a change in behavior. I fail to see unprofessional behavior.



No she wasn't. That's not how to treat people who see things that aren't there. You don't prescribe sleeping medication for it and then just let them go, especially not if they are the commander of Atlantis.

You send them to the shrink... immediately. By force if necessary. What if he'd gone nuts. He could've killed off the entire base in hours.
Wrong. She is not psychic she can only make a decision based off of what her tests and patients tell her. Her tests found nothing wrong and he said that it was probably exaustion and stress. She perscribed him something to help him sleep and if it didn't help to come back. She did everything right there.

Mitchell82
December 1st, 2008, 11:47 AM
The rules are there for a reason. It's not for individual doctors to just arbitrarily assume when it's only a "minor" breach and it's OK!

It doesn't matter if it's a huge deal (and me and others aren't claiming it is). It's still a blatant disregard for doctor-patient confidentiality and for what? It wasn't like she did to save his life something. She did it to crack a joke, at his expense, I might add!

She broke one of the most important rules to a doctor for a trivial matter as if it didn't mean anything! The point is not whether or not it endangered his life or anything. The point is that the rules are there for a reason and you do not break them unless they're really, really necessary and even then it might be wrong!
I disagree.

s09119
December 1st, 2008, 11:55 AM
The point is that in the Pegasus galaxy, you do not let people behaving strangely go just like that.

Define "strangely." Acting nice? Wow.


O RLY? On Earth, if someone were seeing people who weren't there and conversing with thin air, the appropriate solution to this would be to prescribe them some sleeping medication?

I'd like to know what industrialized country this is a practice in.

Someone undergoes a completely personality change all of a sudden without any explanation and your prescription is... not to do anything 'til their intellect starts eroding? In what alternate universe?

Maybe in the United States... for people without medical insurance.

Everyone knows Woolsey is under a lot of stress, and Keller also knows the IOA was interviewing him and scrutinizing his every move. The obvious conclusion would be that he's just stressed and needs more restful sleep.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM
As far as I recall the scenes we're shown of the 'new him' are just him and Keller in the infirmary.
Jennifer said so himself, Rodney acted strangely.


Do they ever defined how long it took them to cotton on? I got the impression it wasn't that long, its just the bug grows very quickly.
If someone has gone through a sudden and unexplained personality change, especially if it's in the Pegasus galaxy, you do daily scans. And quarantine.

Yes, you do. This is the Pegasus galaxy. They have to keep on alert about these things.


This is the Zebra syndrome. Why should Keller assume its something like that; when there are much simpler and more likely explanations? Our thoughts jump towards such convolutions because we know its a television show. Whereas those incidents only take up a very small portion of the time for the characters involved. (a lot more stuff happens off screen than on)
Because they are in the Pegasus galaxy, with new, wild and never-before seen diseases show up on a monthly or so basis (or so it seems). If something seems wrong, it most probably is wrong. And if it isn't, there's no harm in checking up on it.


So why should Keller jump to worst case scenario on such flimsy evidence? He's not behaving quite like himself? When he's just been through quite an ordeal? Heaven forfend he could have been psychological affected by such things.
Even if it's just a personality change due to a psychological problem, she should've sent him to a shrink. But this is the Pegasus galaxy, so she should've done daily scans just to be safe.

Also, an ordeal? Wow, he was stuck on a planet, with friends, with freezing water rising. Why would he suffer a sudden personality change from that after 4+ years of what Rodney's gone through=


The first symptons were just Rodney being nicer and more open than usual in that case people would like thing: "Weird, Rodney's in a good mood today" than "OMG! Somethings Wrong! Alien possession"
I'm sorry, have you seen the show Stargate Atlantis, when someone acting in a completely different way from what they usually do could quite possibly mean alien possession?

There's the fact that it was chronic. It wasn't just a good mood, he was in a "good mood" at all times, all of a sudden, after suffering from the flu (possibly a space flu) and falling unconscious on an alien planet!


That's the implication of the scene, where Keller is obviously blaming herself, thus we should take what it she says at absolute face value.
Yes, that she's incompetent and let her feelings almost kill Rodney. Good we're in agreement here.


After she questioned him and he said he had the exact symptoms of something else, something she then treated. Just because Woolsey didn't give her the proper information, doesn't make her incompetent.
This was only after he'd screamed at her and said some really weird things, such as:
"Then what is going on?! Why isn't your name in the database? Why couldn't Amelia see you earlier today?"
and
"Why?" (to something to which "Why?" is a totally illogical reply)

This after Amelia Banks had told her to take a look at Woolsey for seeing people and talking to thin air. Now I don't know where Jennifer got her medical degree but you do not normally prescribe sleeping medication and then send the patient on their merry way, free to not take the medication, for that.

She's just lucky the "alien possession" wasn't malevolent this time.

Dr Quinn
December 1st, 2008, 11:57 AM
This is the Zebra syndrome. Why should Keller assume its something like that; when there are much simpler and more likely explanations? Our thoughts jump towards such convolutions because we know its a television show. Whereas those incidents only take up a very small portion of the time for the characters involved. (a lot more stuff happens off screen than on)

They are in an entire galaxy filled with "zebras." She was the one who thought something was "off" in Doppelganger, what has happened to her objectivity when it comes to Rodney? This is why I agree that she should not be treating someone for whom she has romantic feeling.
And prescribing sleeping pills for someone who is hallucinating is just plain bad medicine.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 12:00 PM
Very faulty logic. Everyone has personal feelings and yes we do know she had feelings for him prior to that. She had no idea what was going on and she said she might have picked up on it but then she also may not have. She really cared for Rodney hence the reason she did not want to risk his life taking him to the Shrine. She had seen nothing to indicate something was wrong other than a change in behavior. I fail to see unprofessional behavior.
Go re-read my post. She let her personal feelings get the best of her by liking the new Rodney too much and not seeing something was up 'til it was too late. She said so herself.


Wrong. She is not psychic she can only make a decision based off of what her tests and patients tell her. Her tests found nothing wrong and he said that it was probably exaustion and stress. She perscribed him something to help him sleep and if it didn't help to come back. She did everything right there.
Amelia Banks had told her Richard was seeing imaginary people and talking to thin air. I guess "I'm just stressed" takes care of that.

And I don't know what kind of hack doctors you go to, but sleeping pills which are voluntarily taken are usually not the solution to such a problem.

Because it takes quite a lot to start seeing and hearing things. Also, did I mention this was the Pegasus galaxy, home of things such as brain parasites and alien possessions?


Define "strangely." Acting nice? Wow.
The way Rodney acted was strange for him. Something was wrong since he was not being himself for no particular reason.


Everyone knows Woolsey is under a lot of stress, and Keller also knows the IOA was interviewing him and scrutinizing his every move. The obvious conclusion would be that he's just stressed and needs more restful sleep.
Ignoring what Amelia had told her.


I disagree.
What, if it's just a "minor" breach of doctor-patient confidentiality, it's OK? If it's just to crack a joke instead of endangering your patient's life, it's OK?

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 12:01 PM
They are in an entire galaxy filled with "zebras." She was the one who thought something was "off" in Doppelganger, what has happened to her objectivity when it comes to Rodney? This is why I agree that she should not be treating someone for whom she has romantic feeling.
And prescribing sleeping pills for someone who is hallucinating is just plain bad medicine.
Exactly, when she was being strange and seeing (or in this case) dreaming strange things, she was all "Something could be wrong!". When Rodney starts being nicer and she likes the new him, she's all "Oh, it's probably nothing".

fuchsia
December 1st, 2008, 12:03 PM
Wrong. She is not psychic she can only make a decision based off of what her tests and patients tell her. Her tests found nothing wrong and he said that it was probably exaustion and stress. She perscribed him something to help him sleep and if it didn't help to come back. She did everything right there.

I agree.
I've seen lots of doctors for this that and the other, and if they do all the tests and they don't show anything bad, they assume you are not dying and send you away.
They know you'll come back if you're still worried.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 12:09 PM
I agree.
I've seen lots of doctors for this that and the other, and if they do all the tests and they don't show anything bad, they assume you are not dying and send you away.
They know you'll come back if you're still worried.
In the real world, there is no such thing as alien possessions. When you're possessed by an alien, you'll soon stop coming back to scans.

Also, in the real world, psychological afflictions such as seeing and hearing people do not show up on scans. You send people to the shrink for this. For people whose job it is control Atlantis and, thus, many lives, you do this immediately and don't prescribe him sleeping pills and tell him to come back if he feels like it.

This is not the real world. Any sign of trouble could spell the death of hundreds depending on who develops the affliction, Richard being one of them.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 12:13 PM
Jennifer said so himself, Rodney acted strangely.
Rodney acts strangely all the time. Most the time its not indicitave of any medical condition.



If someone has gone through a sudden and unexplained personality change, especially if it's in the Pegasus galaxy, you do daily scans. And quarantine.
She did scans. They showed nothing.



Yes, you do. This is the Pegasus galaxy. They have to keep on alert about these things.
He had a full check up when he got back. It showed nothing wrong.



Because they are in the Pegasus galaxy, with new, wild and never-before seen diseases show up on a monthly or so basis (or so it seems). If something seems wrong, it most probably is wrong. And if it isn't, there's no harm in checking up on it.
And most have more symptoms than "He's being nice for a change"



Even if it's just a personality change due to a psychological problem, she should've sent him to a shrink. But this is the Pegasus galaxy, so she should've done daily scans just to be safe.

Also, an ordeal? Wow, he was stuck on a planet, with friends, with freezing water rising. Why would he suffer a sudden personality change from that after 4+ years of what Rodney's gone through=

Who knows? Maybe he had an epiphany. Him being nice for a change is not a significant symptom



I'm sorry, have you seen the show Stargate Atlantis, when someone acting in a completely different way from what they usually do could quite possibly mean alien possession?
I have, Keller hasn't and the vast majority of cases she will have dealled with will not have been alien possession or anything of the sort. It will have been stress of psychological. Just because it happens some times in episodes doesn't not it means it happens frequent from Keller's PoV.



There's the fact that it was chronic. It wasn't just a good mood, he was in a "good mood" at all times, all of a sudden, after suffering from the flu (possibly a space flu) and falling unconscious on an alien planet!
Chronic? For how long before the other symptoms led to another scan and the actual diagnosis?

Prove this was an unduly long amount of time.



Yes, that she's incompetent and let her feelings almost kill Rodney. Good we're in agreement here.
I hope you know, that was sarcasm. Keller saying she missed it because she liked new Rodney does not mean its 100% true. It means she's blaming herself.




This after Amelia Banks had told her to take a look at Woolsey for seeing people and talking to thin air. Now I don't know where Jennifer got her medical degree but you do not normally prescribe sleeping medication and then send the patient on their merry way, free to not take the medication, for that.

She's just lucky the "alien possession" wasn't malevolent this time.

And where did you et your medical degree? Are you speaking with any authority on the subject of medicine.

She scanned him. It showed nothing. She asked him his symptoms and diagnosed him on those. If Woolsey didn't tell her what was really wrong, he only has himself to blame for any mistreatment.



They are in an entire galaxy filled with "zebras." She was the one who thought something was "off" in Doppelganger, what has happened to her objectivity when it comes to Rodney? This is why I agree that she should not be treating someone for whom she has romantic feeling.
And prescribing sleeping pills for someone who is hallucinating is just plain bad medicine.

The situation was utterly dissimilar. There, there was a repeated pattern; people having bad dreams involving Sheppard. Here people are criticising her for not recognising a single minor change in one individual was in fact a massively important symptom.

fuchsia
December 1st, 2008, 12:21 PM
In the real world, there is no such thing as alien possessions. When you're possessed by an alien, you'll soon stop coming back to scans.

Also, in the real world, psychological afflictions such as seeing and hearing people do not show up on scans. You send people to the shrink for this. For people whose job it is control Atlantis and, thus, many lives, you do this immediately and don't prescribe him sleeping pills and tell him to come back if he feels like it.

This is not the real world. Any sign of trouble could spell the death of hundreds depending on who develops the affliction, Richard being one of them.

Okay, so if it's not the real world then 'real-world rules' don't apply?
I think this is what you're saying.
So therefore how can you judge Keller based on real-world rules like inappropriate doctor/patient relationships?:)

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 12:27 PM
Rodney acts strangely all the time. Most the time its not indicitave of any medical condition.
Name 3 times when Rodney's gone through a random, sudden and inexplicable personality change that differs greatly from his character not because of some kind of outside influence.


She did scans. They showed nothing.

He had a full check up when he got back. It showed nothing wrong.
She should've done more scans after his strange behavior persisted.

Cancer doesn't always show up on the first scan either. So do many other diseases. This is why you do followups!


And most have more symptoms than "He's being nice for a change"
"He's acting very strangely, in total contradiction to his normal personality" is bad. It doesn't matter if she liked this new him more, it was still not him.


Who knows? Maybe he had an epiphany. Him being nice for a change is not a significant symptom
This is the Pegasus galaxy, home of alien possessions! You don't brush inexplicable and sudden personality changes after passing out on an alien planet off!


I have, Keller hasn't and the vast majority of cases she will have dealled with will not have been alien possession or anything of the sort.
She's been supposedly on Atlantis for years, so she must've seen a few of them, like, say Phoebus & Hubby. I also trust her to be professional enough to have read the files on past medical afflictions and the likes that have hit the SGC and Atlantis, such as, say, alien possessions!


It will have been stress of psychological. Just because it happens some times in episodes doesn't not it means it happens frequent from Keller's PoV.
Just because it doesn't happen frequently does not mean you do not consider it a possiblity 'til it happens again.


Chronic? For how long before the other symptoms led to another scan and the actual diagnosis?
Chronic as in it kept coming back, he wasn't just randomly nice for a day and then stopped being nice without any explanation.


Prove this was an unduly long amount of time.
Jennifer's own words.


I hope you know, that was sarcasm. Keller saying she missed it because she liked new Rodney does not mean its 100% true. It means she's blaming herself.
Or maybe it's actually true.


And where did you et your medical degree? Are you speaking with any authority on the subject of medicine.
I know enough to know that you don't normally prescribe sleeping medication to people seeing and hearing things.


She scanned him. It showed nothing. She asked him his symptoms and diagnosed him on those. If Woolsey didn't tell her what was really wrong, he only has himself to blame for any mistreatment.
Amelia Banks told her he'd been seeing and hearing things. Things don't always show up on scans for this. And the correct treatment is not sleeping pills.


The situation was utterly dissimilar. There, there was a repeated pattern; people having bad dreams involving Sheppard. Here people are criticising her for not recognising a single minor change in one individual was in fact a massively important symptom.
Minor change my tuchas. Rodney suddenly being after passing out on alien planet = Could be big.

Richard seeing and hearing things = Definitely big.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 12:31 PM
Okay, so if it's not the real world then 'real-world rules' don't apply?
I think this is what you're saying.
So therefore how can you judge Keller based on real-world rules like inappropriate doctor/patient relationships?:)
It's set in the real world and everything is like it's in the real world unless stated otherwise. And it's been made abundantly clear that there are far many more afflictions in the Pegasus Galaxy than there is on Earth.

Sudden changes in personality could mean alien possession, as it's happened not only on Atlantis but even the SGC before.

This is why when something seems off, you don't just assume someone could be suffering just from Earth-based afflictions or even afflictions know up 'til then. You must be on the lookout if possible alien afflictions your expeditions have yet to encounter.

In "The Shrine", it wasn't that bad, but still bad since she let her personal feelings interfere with her patient. In "Remnants" it was really bad. She'd just recently ran into that brain parasite. She knew that sudden erratic behavior could mean bad things, yet she waved his odd behavior off and prescribed him sleeping medication.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 12:42 PM
I think McKeller will last the test of time.

They'll make it 'till the end of the series in 4 episodes where Rodney, during the suspenseful climax of the series finale, will spontaneously ask for Jennifer's hand in marriage. She will, of course, tearfully accept and they'll go on to defeat the Wraith with the power of their love.

The movie will open with their marriage ceremony, Teyla as Maid of Honour, John as Best Man, and Jennifer resplendant in white. Just as Rodney is beginning his heartfelt, self-written vows, they are all beamed out onto the Daedalus on a matter of galactic emergency. Someone wants to take-over the universe.....again.

McKeller will, of course, feature prominently in the movie as our Team attempts to save the universe.

Ronon will be curiously absent.

All will end well, and we close on Rodney and Jennifer sharing a passionate kiss.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 12:43 PM
Cancer doesn't always show up on the first scan either. So do many other diseases. This is why you do followups!
When there is cause to. IE Symptoms. 'Being nice' is not a symptom. .



"He's acting very strangely, in total contradiction to his normal personality" is bad. It doesn't matter if she liked this new him more, it was still not him
Him acting very strangely is him being nice to for a change. He's capable of it. We've seen it in the past. Its not the radical 180 degree turn you're making it out to be.



This is the Pegasus galaxy,
Oh my God!!! I had no idea!



home of alien possessions! You don't brush inexplicable and sudden personality changes after passing out on an alien planet off!

Scans show nothing. Now prove that she waited an undue amount of time before doing another.




She's been supposedly on Atlantis for years, so she must've seen a few of them, like, say Phoebus & Hubby.
I'm sorry I have no idea what these are.



I also trust her to be professional enough to have read the files on past medical afflictions and the likes that have hit the SGC and Atlantis, such as, say, alien possessions!
Always detectable by scans or by more obvious markers than 'was nice to me' It was still Rodney McKay, he wasn't being possessed, he was just giving his nice side an airing, it was not a radical change.



Just because it doesn't happen frequently does not mean you do not consider it a possiblity 'til it happens again.
True but in no previous circumstance does "being nice" mean "I've been infected by pure evil!"



Chronic as in it kept coming back, he wasn't just randomly nice for a day and then stopped being nice without any explanation.
And how long was being nice the only symptom before we moved on to the actually noticeable symptom of amnesia?



Jennifer's own words.

So we believe her word when she's saying she is incompetent but at all other times she's a useless, worthless nincompoop?




Or maybe it's actually true.
Maybe but taking the word of someone who's clearly emotional bereaved and taking it as honest to god fact is just not sensible.




Minor change my tuchas. Rodney suddenly being after passing out on alien planet = Could be big.

Richard seeing and hearing things = Definitely big.
Neither of these things relate in anyway to what you quoted.

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 12:44 PM
Pandora's Box,

Excuse me while I barf!

Blackkkkkkkkchdgghh *spits out a bit of bile*

Much better!

*Shudder*

Skydiver
December 1st, 2008, 12:48 PM
People keep avoiding the subject, but truth is, Staite isn't a very good actress. I think it all comes down to that. If they had cast that other Firefly girl as the doctor, I doubt there would have been such a huge rejection for the Keller character. Either way, the show is dead now.
that is not the TRUTH, it is your OPINION

Opinions are not fact, so please don't state them that way

silly sally
December 1st, 2008, 12:55 PM
When there is cause to. IE Symptoms. 'Being nice' is not a symptom. .

....

It could be. Watch "House" ;)

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 12:56 PM
It's a change in their personality! Symptom 1.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 01:39 PM
Pandora's Box,

Excuse me while I barf!

Blackkkkkkkkchdgghh *spits out a bit of bile*

Much better!

*Shudder*

:: pats fumbles on the head ::

It's okay. You'll learn to appreciate the brilliance of McKeller as you get older.

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 01:47 PM
nu uh!

you Can't make me!

Never ganna happen.

*meanie*

Lucylee
December 1st, 2008, 01:48 PM
Now I'm REALLY confused...

Post #66 by sblade:

People keep avoiding the subject, but truth is, Staite isn't a very good actress. I think it all comes down to that. If they had cast that other Firefly girl as the doctor, I doubt there would have been such a huge rejection for the Keller character. Either way, the show is dead now.

Originally Posted by fuchsia (#71):

Sblade, I'm pretty sure your last post is against forum rules.

then: TameFarrar post #74

Actually it isn't. Folks are allowed to state whether or not they feel a person is a good or bad actor. That is a critique on the person's chosen profession when they choose to become an actor.

What would be in violation would be an attack on Jewel as a person.

TameFarrar

GateWorld Moderator

Then: #112 by Skydiver

Quote:
Originally Posted by sblade

People keep avoiding the subject, but truth is, Staite isn't a very good actress. I think it all comes down to that. If they had cast that other Firefly girl as the doctor, I doubt there would have been such a huge rejection for the Keller character. Either way, the show is dead now.

that is not the TRUTH, it is your OPINION

Opinions are not fact, so please don't state them that way

Are we allowed to say someone is a bad actor or not?

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 01:50 PM
When there is cause to. IE Symptoms. 'Being nice' is not a symptom. .

Him acting very strangely is him being nice to for a change. He's capable of it. We've seen it in the past. Its not the radical 180 degree turn you're making it out to be.
Suddenly being nice to everyone without any explanation and the behavior keeping up? When.

Also, he just passed out on an alien planet after having the (potential space) flu.


Scans show nothing. Now prove that she waited an undue amount of time before doing another.
She indicated so herself.


I'm sorry I have no idea what these are.
Alien possession.


Always detectable by scans or by more obvious markers than 'was nice to me' It was still Rodney McKay, he wasn't being possessed, he was just giving his nice side an airing, it was not a radical change.
They got lucky. What if he had been possessed by an alien who was just pretending to be nice while sabotaging the city?


True but in no previous circumstance does "being nice" mean "I've been infected by pure evil!"
"I'm acting in ways which are not the norm for me" = "Something is wrong" has been true before, though.


And how long was being nice the only symptom before we moved on to the actually noticeable symptom of amnesia?
Can we stop being stuck on "being nice"? It wasn't being nice. It was behavior uncharacteristic of Rodney.


So we believe her word when she's saying she is incompetent but at all other times she's a useless, worthless nincompoop?
I'm sorry, has she herself at any times stated she isn't all the while there being evidence of her not being one?

Because in "The Shrine", we said it and we were shown scenes of how she was enjoying his new niceness without question.

Meanwhile, I've never seen her claim to not be incompetent, all the while prescribing sleeping medication for possibly psychosis, divulging doctor-patient information and prescribing yet more medicine for restless leg syndrome.


Maybe but taking the word of someone who's clearly emotional bereaved and taking it as honest to god fact is just not sensible.
We can only work with what the show gives up. If a character says something, we assume it to be true unless evidence is shown otherwise.


Neither of these things relate in anyway to what you quoted.
Yes they did. You claimed they were minor things.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 01:53 PM
nu uh!

you Can't make me!

Never ganna happen.

*meanie*

:: is shocked ::

Moi?

I won't have to do anything.

It's all done by The Awesomeness of McKeller!

:D

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 01:56 PM
What color are your eyes?

They must be brown!

cause you iz full of sh******

:eek:

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 01:58 PM
What color are your eyes?

They must be brown!

cause you iz full of sh******

:eek:

Now that's just crass and very crude...

So much for playfully joking around.

:rolleyes:

And my eyes are green....and brown....okay, they're hazel.

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 02:00 PM
Hey!!!!

I wuz joking!

sheesh!

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 02:16 PM
Also, he just passed out on an alien planet after having the (potential space) flu.
And she examined him afterwards finding him to be fine. Then she kept him in the infirmary to be sure he didn't develop actual symptoms.




She indicated so herself.
She's an unreliable witness. You don't trust her to perform her duties adequate, why do you assume she can assess her own performance accurately?


Alien possession.
Not very helpful. Were those terms short hand for episodes? Or Specific creatures? Is so, from which episode?



They got lucky. What if he had been possessed by an alien who was just pretending to be nice while sabotaging the city?
Then they;d be dead. In Stargate the human race has only survived soley because it is so incredibly lucky.





Can we stop being stuck on "being nice"? It wasn't being nice. It was behavior uncharacteristic of Rodney.
I thought it was a nice counter point to your insistence of a radical change in personality.

Being nice, is behaviour commonly considered uncharacteristic of Rodney. I do believe not his behaviour departed from the norm more than can be account to normal mood swings or becoming more comfortable to a person.

I do not believe the behaviour we see in the episode (the scene of him flirting with Keller over his fruit cup) is significantly different from McKay other than he was able to overcome his nerves and articulate his fondness for her.



I'm sorry, has she herself at any times stated she isn't all the while there being evidence of her not being one?
I can't make any sense of this sentence at all, I'm afraid.



Because in "The Shrine", we said it and we were shown scenes of how she was enjoying his new niceness without question.
So she enjoys people being nice to her? A sign of incompetence to be sure.



Meanwhile, I've never seen her claim to not be incompetent, all the while prescribing sleeping medication for possibly psychosis, divulging doctor-patient information and prescribing yet more medicine for restless leg syndrome.
I haven't not, nor will I ever defend Keller for this. I was shocked by her statements in Trio. Which were relatively mild.




We can only work with what the show gives up. If a character says something, we assume it to be true unless evidence is shown otherwise.


No, we don't. Or at least I don't. Characters are not infallible. You have to pass their statements through something I like to call 'common sense.' Keller's claim of blame is cannont be taken as fact, when people you care about are in trouble you often claim responsibility even for things you couldn't possibly have stopped or known. For example: friends of people who commit suicide without warning will often say something along those lines.


Yes they did. You claimed they were minor things.
I claimed they were utterly dissimilar to the case of Doppleganger, which is a repeated pattern rather than individual problems as in the case of The Shrine.

nx01a
December 1st, 2008, 02:20 PM
Of course it won't last long. There're only like 5 episodes left in the series , and, at the most, 2 movies.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 02:21 PM
Of course it won't last long. There're only like 5 episodes left in the series , and, at the most, 2 movies.

Such a pessimist.

I demand at least 5! Nay, I predict at least 5!

And in the 3rd Jennifer will be pregnant with twin McKays!

:D

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 02:21 PM
Of course it won't last long. There're only like 5 episodes left in the series , and, at the most, 2 movies.

Welcome back to page 1...

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 02:23 PM
I don't think McKay and Keller will last........CUZ *I SAY SO*


:cool:

Briangate78
December 1st, 2008, 02:24 PM
Now I'm REALLY confused...

Post #66 by sblade:


Originally Posted by fuchsia (#71):


then: TameFarrar post #74


Then: #112 by Skydiver


Are we allowed to say someone is a bad actor or not?

Saying you don't care for someone's acting and saying someone is a bad actor are two different things, imo. The 2nd one I think is an attack.


Such a pessimist.

I demand at least 5! Nay, I predict at least 5!

And in the 3rd Jennifer will be pregnant with twin McKays!

:D

With the way the ratings have been upticking for SGA in the final eps, I think SCI FI could very well order more movies.

ponycake
December 1st, 2008, 02:32 PM
Considering the actors still haven't signed on the dotted line I'm getting a little bit nervous at this stage that the movie will go ahead. They're not exactly an unemployable bunch so if they get tied up with another tv show or movie (and who can blame them for wanting an income and realiable work) it leaves SGA out on a limb unless they're prepared to go ahead without a full cast. I'm not completely pessimistic but the odds have now slipped for me from 100% sure that they were going to do this.

And as for McKay and Keller - they're not real, have no autonomy, and are purely directed by the writers who obviously think they are a shining example of Twu Wuv. I think pandora might be on to something... :)

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 02:51 PM
And she examined him afterwards finding him to be fine. Then she kept him in the infirmary to be sure he didn't develop actual symptoms.
But he did develop actual symptoms. She was just too blinded by her feelings to notice.


She's an unreliable witness. You don't trust her to perform her duties adequate, why do you assume she can assess her own performance accurately?
So the writers threw that line in there just to have it out there? You have to think of this as a TV show. What is said is exposition.


Not very helpful. Were those terms short hand for episodes? Or Specific creatures? Is so, from which episode?
"The Long Goodbye", Phoebus took over Elizabeth, her hubby took over John. We'd had alien possessions on Atlantis before. And Jennifer was probably there for it.


Then they;d be dead. In Stargate the human race has only survived soley because it is so incredibly lucky.
We've also survived countless time when getting lucky checking for trouble.


I thought it was a nice counter point to your insistence of a radical change in personality.
But it was radical... for Rodney.


Being nice, is behaviour commonly considered uncharacteristic of Rodney. I do believe not his behaviour departed from the norm more than can be account to normal mood swings or becoming more comfortable to a person.
But this is just empty speculation on both our parts. Neither side is more right than the other.


I do not believe the behaviour we see in the episode (the scene of him flirting with Keller over his fruit cup) is significantly different from McKay other than he was able to overcome his nerves and articulate his fondness for her.
See barely saw anything. We heard her say things. We interpret both things differently.


I can't make any sense of this sentence at all, I'm afraid.
You claim we can't take her at her words and assume she's incompetent at the same time. I say she hasn't been shown to be a liar and she has never denied being incompetent, all the while showing us with her actions that she is.


So she enjoys people being nice to her? A sign of incompetence to be sure.
She let Rodney almost die because she neglected to detect the parasite in time due to her being nice to him. Had the same thing happened if, say, Chuck suddenly went through a personality change and was nicer to her all of a sudden? Had she assumed nothing of it then?

Jennifer explicitly said the following:
"KELLER: If I wasn't so taken by the new Rodney McKay, the parasite might have been small enough for me to operate without causing significant brain trauma. By the time he started to forget, it was too late"

If she hadn't been so taken with the new Rodney and done more scans on him, then, according to Jennifer herself, the parasite would've been detected early enough to be operated on without causing significant brain trauma.

Now unless she's lying through her teeth and the writers chose to throw that line in there just to show us her lying through her teeth, we can only assume this to be true.

I am not one to assume things said on-screen are lies just because it works against my side of the argument.


I haven't not, nor will I ever defend Keller for this. I was shocked by her statements in Trio. Which were relatively mild.
Someone else did. And I also bundled it up with her crimes against competence to show that she's not quite that competent.


No, we don't. Or at least I don't. Characters are not infallible. You have to pass their statements through something I like to call 'common sense.' Keller's claim of blame is cannont be taken as fact, when people you care about are in trouble you often claim responsibility even for things you couldn't possibly have stopped or known. For example: friends of people who commit suicide without warning will often say something along those lines.
Jennifer was very specific, though. See the quote above.

This indicates she memory loss wasn't immediate. The creature grew fast but not fast enough that followup scans within days wouldn't have picked it up fast enough to operate without inflicting significant brain damage.

It's all there in the script.


I claimed they were utterly dissimilar to the case of Doppleganger, which is a repeated pattern rather than individual problems as in the case of The Shrine.
What individual problems? The overhaul in personality? That's quite the pattern there.

nx01a
December 1st, 2008, 02:54 PM
Welcome back to page 1...Since space and time are curved, the infinite sooner or later bends back upon itself and ends up where it began. And so has this thread.:sheppard:

nx01a
December 1st, 2008, 02:57 PM
Considering the actors still haven't signed on the dotted line I'm getting a little bit nervous at this stage that the movie will go ahead. They're not exactly an unemployable bunch so if they get tied up with another tv show or movie (and who can blame them for wanting an income and realiable work) it leaves SGA out on a limb unless they're prepared to go ahead without a full cast.Tptb're going ahead quite happily without a full cast right now. Sure, Teyla's missing in a few episodes; why not have her miss the whole second movie?:mckay::teyla:

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 03:23 PM
But he did develop actual symptoms. She was just too blinded by her feelings to notice. Like what? Discounted the personality change, which I am disputing. From your own quote by the time the next symptom emerged: Memory loss, it was already too late to operate.



So the writers threw that line in there just to have it out there? You have to think of this as a TV show. What is said is exposition.
1) No, I don't. Debate of Television shows necessitates suspension of disbelieve. What we see is real.
2) Even without SoD, all dialogue =/= exposition. Characters frequently lie or are mistaken. Or its character work not plot exposition. In this case its establishes Keller feeling guilty about Rodney. She feels she should have caught it early. That doesn't necessitate that she could have actually caught it early.


"The Long Goodbye", Phoebus took over Elizabeth, her hubby took over John. We'd had alien possessions on Atlantis before. And Jennifer was probably there for it.
It would have been easier is you'd said that in the first place and that is not really a comparable situation. Sheppard/Weir were zapped by a device. Plus iirc they actually volunteer for it. At least one of them did.




But it was radical... for Rodney.


This is the crux of the matter, whether you feel Rodney's behaviour in what we so was so radically different than the norm or not.



But this is just empty speculation on both our parts. Neither side is more right than the other.
Indeed.



See barely saw anything. We heard her say things. We interpret both things differently.
Precisely. You are condemning Keller on the flimsy of pretexts. We don't see that much of the new Rodney so we don't know if his behaviour was that out of character for it. We only have Keller's word for it.



You claim we can't take her at her words and assume she's incompetent at the same time. I say she hasn't been shown to be a liar and she has never denied being incompetent, all the while showing us with her actions that she is.
If she's incompetent then she shouldn't be able to accurately assess her own abilities. This her statement she should have caught it too late is suspect. (meaning she is not incompetent; paradoxical, no?)



Jennifer explicitly said the following:
"KELLER: If I wasn't so taken by the new Rodney McKay, the parasite might have been small enough for me to operate without causing significant brain trauma. By the time he started to forget, it was too late"

If she hadn't been so taken with the new Rodney and done more scans on him, then, according to Jennifer herself, the parasite would've been detected early enough to be operated on without causing significant brain trauma.

Now unless she's lying through her teeth and the writers chose to throw that line in there just to show us her lying through her teeth, we can only assume this to be true.

That statement being wrong does not mean she's lying through her teeth. Statements do not have to be either 100% true or false. Black or white. There are shades of grey in everything.

Keller simply feels more guilty than she really is because she cares for him. Refer back to my previous examples.

And how on earth would Keller known what would have happened? Does she have a handy dandy Quantum Mirror to jump through realities? She wants to believe it would have all been all right. It'd be terrible to think your friend was going to die no matter what.



I am not one to assume things said on-screen are lies just because it works against my side of the argument.
I'm not assuming they're lies. Just not taking them as 100% literal truth.




Jennifer was very specific, though. See the quote above.

This indicates she memory loss wasn't immediate. The creature grew fast but not fast enough that followup scans within days wouldn't have picked it up fast enough to operate without inflicting significant brain damage.

It's all there in the script.

And not in dispute. Earlier scans may well have picked up at an operable stage.

I'm disputing the idea that Rodney's change in personality was significant enough than any competent doctor would have said 'you're not well' and scanned him again and again until the found something. Even though initial scans were clean.





What individual problems? The overhaul in personality? That's quite the pattern there.
One instance is not a pattern. Only Rodney was affected in The Shrine. No-one else.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 03:35 PM
1) No, I don't. Debate of Television shows necessitates suspension of disbelieve. What we see is real.
2) Even without SoD, all dialogue =/= exposition. Characters frequently lie or are mistaken. Or its character work not plot exposition. In this case its establishes Keller feeling guilty about Rodney. She feels she should have caught it early. That doesn't necessitate that she could have actually caught it early.
Are we truly watching the same Stargate Atlantis? Because Stagate Atlantis characters do not lie or are mistaken a lot. And when they are, they are called on it. When not called on it, they're almost never wrong or are lying.


It would have been easier is you'd said that in the first place and that is not really a comparable situation. Sheppard/Weir were zapped by a device. Plus iirc they actually volunteer for it. At least one of them did.
I'm sorry, I said they were the same when? I said that Atlantis has experience with alien possession. And that Jennifer was most probably even there when it happened. Thus, she should be on the alert for this stuff.

Sudden change of behavior? Possible alien possession.


Precisely. You are condemning Keller on the flimsy of pretexts. We don't see that much of the new Rodney so we don't know if his behaviour was that out of character for it. We only have Keller's word for it.
Stargate characters do not lie or are mistaken a lot. Not unless they are called on it either by other characters or events.

We can only assume she wasn't lying since neither occurred. The writers use dialogue as exposition a lot. Also, just because she was emotionally invested doesn't automatically mean she was lying. You cannot say she was lying or mistaken and claim it for a fact.

Even with SoD, it is not a fact that she lied. She could very well be telling the truth.


If she's incompetent then she shouldn't be able to accurately assess her own abilities. This her statement she should have caught it too late is suspect. (meaning she is not incompetent; paradoxical, no?)
Why shouldn't she be? This is this and that are that. She's perfectly capable of breaking ethics codes and being a bad CMO while also being able to tell when she lets her feelings get the best of her.

She's incompetent, not a complete idiot.


That statement being wrong does not mean she's lying through her teeth. Statements do not have to be either 100% true or false. Black or white. There are shades of grey in everything.
There is only two ways to go here:
* She let her feelings get the best of her and therefore didn't notice the parasite in time to operate on it without causing significant brain damage.
* She wouldn't have been able to catch it fast enough to operate on it without causing significant brain damage had she not let her feelings get the best of her and done repeated scans as Rodney's strange behavior continued.

There is no gray here.


Keller simply feels more guilty than she really is because she cares for him. Refer back to my previous examples.
And of course this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt she was lying.


And how on earth would Keller known what would have happened? Does she have a handy dandy Quantum Mirror to jump through realities? She wants to believe it would have all been all right. It'd be terrible to think your friend was going to die no matter what.
Because when they finally caught it, it hadn't randomly grown 1 meter. That means that it took time to grow. Which means it probably took days. Which means that had she had followup scans daily and bi-daily, it would've been caught in time.


I'm not assuming they're lies. Just not taking them as 100% literal truth.
What literal truth? Her statement is not something ambiguous. It's either yes or no.


And not in dispute. Earlier scans may well have picked up at an operable stage.
So she's telling the truth, isn't she? Had she just done the damn scans, they would've picked it up. But she didn't, despite him action strangely out the blue, after passing out and being unresponsive on an alien planet, after having the (possibly space) flu, only to wake up and miraculously have nothing show up on the scans.

She kept him overnight for observation but apparently didn't do any scans after that, instead indulging in his new sweet and flirty side for probably days. Had she just done one damn scan in those days, she would've caught it.

Thus, she let her feelings get the best of her.


I'm disputing the idea that Rodney's change in personality was significant enough than any competent doctor would have said 'you're not well' and scanned him again and again until the found something. Even though initial scans were clean.
But it was. Maybe not for you. But for Rodney, it was.


One instance is not a pattern. Only Rodney was affected in The Shrine. No-one else.
Yes, which would indicate that the problem lay with Rodney. It's a pattern as long as it repeats.

nx01a
December 1st, 2008, 03:43 PM
Rodney just started acting nicer. Keller was hard on herself because she missed that as a symptom of alien parasite-induced mental degeneration? I doubt anyone would have said anything beyond, "Are you sure you're feeling ok?" and even that in jest. She had no reason to suspect at that point that something was wrong. Of course, once his feelings for her were revealed, she had even more reason to feel guilty about not getting it earlier, but there really were no symptoms to really show that he was getting senile apart from the whole niceness thing. She was beating herself up about it needlessly. It's like not realizing Woolsey was seeing things after their interaction in 'Remnants'. In hindsight, sure, it makes sense but, at the time, no bells went off because there was no reason to suspect there was anything majorly wrong especially after scanning him.

TameFarrar
December 1st, 2008, 04:30 PM
Now I'm REALLY confused...

Post #66 by sblade:


Originally Posted by fuchsia (#71):


then: TameFarrar post #74


Then: #112 by Skydiver


Are we allowed to say someone is a bad actor or not?

Skydiver and I did not mean to confuse you :)

We are just so used to working in tandem. You can state your opinion regarding the chosen profession and how the actor is achieving that profession. However always bear in mind it IS and OPINION and NOT a fact.

Saying someone is a Bad actor is not a personal attack, contrary to what some may feel. That is an opinion on the person's acting ability. Saying an actor has flabby cheeks IS a personal attack. Anything that is personal to the actor and not revolving around the job is an attack. We realize at times it can be a fine line. Since Make-Up artists and such do style hair in unflattering ways or costume designers don't always hit the mark. But in general, saying that an actor did not portray something well or that you feel they are a bad actor is not an attack. However, we ask that folks not get themselves in an uproar and just take it as a given in most instances that when a person states something like that it is an opinion and not a fact.

FallenAngelII
December 2nd, 2008, 10:58 AM
Rodney just started acting nicer. Keller was hard on herself because she missed that as a symptom of alien parasite-induced mental degeneration? I doubt anyone would have said anything beyond, "Are you sure you're feeling ok?" and even that in jest. She had no reason to suspect at that point that something was wrong. Of course, once his feelings for her were revealed, she had even more reason to feel guilty about not getting it earlier, but there really were no symptoms to really show that he was getting senile apart from the whole niceness thing. She was beating herself up about it needlessly. It's like not realizing Woolsey was seeing things after their interaction in 'Remnants'. In hindsight, sure, it makes sense but, at the time, no bells went off because there was no reason to suspect there was anything majorly wrong especially after scanning him.
They are in the Pegasus Galaxy. A cough could turn out to be Michael's plague. You do not take strange behavior lightly.

It's not like they're on Earth where alien possessions, space flus and evil plagues do not exist. As CMO, she should constantly be on alert for any suspicious behavior.

Crazedwraith
December 2nd, 2008, 11:03 AM
Actually as CMO, she should hardly be ever interacting with patients. That's what the medical staff is for. She should be busy actually running the department. Staff rotas, budgets and so on.

Alas that is not how sci-fi shows ever show CMOs.

nx01a
December 2nd, 2008, 11:38 AM
You're right, insane life-sucker. We see the heads of departments as the really hands-on ones in sci-fi shows usually. In reality, we'd hardly see Shep and Rodney or Keller until something catastrophic happened. I've always wondered why Shep's even got a team, he should be in an office coordinating everything. Lorne and Zelenka and that Asian doctor and the second level guys should be the ones we see actually doing most of the, well, doing.:P

@ FAII... I'm always quite vocal about people realizing they're in extraordinary circumstances and acting accordingly. If the Atlantis expedition or the SGC were written with an eye to the the threats they face on a weekly basis, there would be multiple levels of shielding around the stargate and the gate rooms, each level with a battery of equipment to test the teams and visitors who come through. There would also be daily medical checkups and perhaps weekly full scans. Extensive cloaked jumper or 304 scanning of all worlds to be visited... Still, even Asgard and Ancients technologies [or our ability to effectively use it] can't detect everything. I don't think Keller was negligent with Rodney's diagnosis. There was nothing to indicate illness [apart from sharing a fruit cup?]. With Woolsey... I think she dropped the ball with his diagnosis, what with him admitting to hallucinating and all.

Anyhoo, back on topic... Rodiffer will last until she gets a terminal disease. It worked great for the character and the actress in The Last Man, and for Rodney, too!

Crazedwraith
December 2nd, 2008, 12:04 PM
You're right, insane life-sucker.
...Thank you. I'd forgotten to revive my sig banner.



We see the heads of departments as the really hands-on ones in sci-fi shows usually. In reality, we'd hardly see Shep and Rodney or Keller until something catastrophic happened. I've always wondered why Shep's even got a team, he should be in an office coordinating everything. Lorne and Zelenka and that Asian doctor and the second level guys should be the ones we see actually doing most of the, well, doing.:P

True. I'd actually not applied the logic as far as Sheppard and Rodney, I assume they do a lot of office work off screen. Plus they may even go on less mission than the other field teams. I can see Shep pulling strings to remain in the action though.

They kinda poke fun at this in Adrift. Where neither Shep no McKay are any good at running their departments, failing to de performance reviews and so forth... :D

FallenAngelII
December 2nd, 2008, 12:11 PM
Actually as CMO, she should hardly be ever interacting with patients. That's what the medical staff is for. She should be busy actually running the department. Staff rotas, budgets and so on.

Alas that is not how sci-fi shows ever show CMOs.
Yes, the writers' inability to write anything remotely realistic is baffling.

I meant as a doctor on Atlantis, period. And how Atlantis treats their CMOs, as well.

silvercomet
December 2nd, 2008, 12:18 PM
I think McKeller will last the test of time.

They'll make it 'till the end of the series in 4 episodes where Rodney, during the suspenseful climax of the series finale, will spontaneously ask for Jennifer's hand in marriage. She will, of course, tearfully accept and they'll go on to defeat the Wraith with the power of their love.

The movie will open with their marriage ceremony, Teyla as Maid of Honour, John as Best Man, and Jennifer resplendant in white. Just as Rodney is beginning his heartfelt, self-written vows, they are all beamed out onto the Daedalus on a matter of galactic emergency. Someone wants to take-over the universe.....again.

McKeller will, of course, feature prominently in the movie as our Team attempts to save the universe.

Ronon will be curiously absent.

All will end well, and we close on Rodney and Jennifer sharing a passionate kiss.

Aaaaah, how could you? I will need weeks to get these images out of my head. And please tell me you aren't a successful fortuneteller. ;):P

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 01:16 PM
Aaaaah, how could you? I will need weeks to get these images out of my head. And please tell me you aren't a successful fortuneteller. ;):P

:D I am just that good.

Mitchell82
December 2nd, 2008, 04:08 PM
Go re-read my post. She let her personal feelings get the best of her by liking the new Rodney too much and not seeing something was up 'til it was too late. She said so herself.
I do not need to reread your constant griping. Yes she did but as I said she didn't act unprofessionally. Doctors develop feelings for their patients over time and some do occasionally let emotion get in the way of logic. These are humans after all not Vulcans.



Amelia Banks had told her Richard was seeing imaginary people and talking to thin air. I guess "I'm just stressed" takes care of that.

And I don't know what kind of hack doctors you go to, but sleeping pills which are voluntarily taken are usually not the solution to such a problem.
<mod snip>Second sleeping pills are prescribed for the symptoms he described to Keller.


Because it takes quite a lot to start seeing and hearing things. Also, did I mention this was the Pegasus galaxy, home of things such as brain parasites and alien possessions?
I guess you aren't familiar with psychology as you are quite wrong. Excessive stress can lead to hallucinations.



The way Rodney acted was strange for him. Something was wrong since he was not being himself for no particular reason.
He was being nice that's a personality change but not a huge reason to think that something is gravely wrong.



Ignoring what Amelia had told her.
According to that scene the only reference to Amelia is from Woolsey. Keller says nothing at all about Amelia saying anything to her.

Mitchell82
December 2nd, 2008, 04:08 PM
Yes, the writers' inability to write anything remotely realistic is baffling.

I meant as a doctor on Atlantis, period. And how Atlantis treats their CMOs, as well.

Not from my perspective.

FallenAngelII
December 3rd, 2008, 09:52 AM
I do not need to reread your constant griping. Yes she did but as I said she didn't act unprofessionally. Doctors develop feelings for their patients over time and some do occasionally let emotion get in the way of logic. These are humans after all not Vulcans.
She let her feelings cloud her judgment, which almost lead to Rodney's death. Are we or are we not in agreement over this?


<mod snip>Second sleeping pills are prescribed for the symptoms he described to Keller.
Amelia Banks told her he'd been acting strangely, seeing things and talking to people who are there.

Then, when he enters the infirmary, he keeps on acting weird, yelling at her/imaginary people, etc. In situations like these, you usually don't trust the patient 100%.


I guess you aren't familiar with psychology as you are quite wrong. Excessive stress can lead to hallucinations.
Maybe you should recheck how hallucinations work. They do not work "that way".


He was being nice that's a personality change but not a huge reason to think that something is gravely wrong.
It was a sudden and unexplained change in behavior. Grave or not, it persisted and she should've double-checked to be sure. This is the Pegasus galaxy, home of diseases they've never even imagined.


According to that scene the only reference to Amelia is from Woolsey. Keller says nothing at all about Amelia saying anything to her.
I misremembered. I just double-checked the script.


Not from my perspective.
What experience do you have as CMO of international expeditions or CMO of anything at all? CMOs do not do what Jennifer does. Neither do Military COs. The writers expect us to completely suspend our disbelief.

If you think they're writing them well, believably and realistically (as in "as they would be like in the real world"), then you need to read up more on how the world works in these regards (CMOs and COs).

Mitchell82
December 3rd, 2008, 12:26 PM
She let her feelings cloud her judgment, which almost lead to Rodney's death. Are we or are we not in agreement over this?
I'll grant you that her feelings lead her to take too long to diagnose his condition but it didn't almost lead to his death. If you are referring to her not wanting to take Rodney to the Shrine that was the right call.



Amelia Banks told her he'd been acting strangely, seeing things and talking to people who are there.
No she didn't.


Then, when he enters the infirmary, he keeps on acting weird, yelling at her/imaginary people, etc. In situations like these, you usually don't trust the patient 100%.
What is Keller a mind reader now? All she knew is he was acting anxious she had no idea he was seeing and talking to an "imaginary" friend.



Maybe you should recheck how hallucinations work. They do not work "that way".
Actually lack of sleep and excessive stress can lead to sensory deprivation which can lead to hallucinations.



It was a sudden and unexplained change in behavior. Grave or not, it persisted and she should've double-checked to be sure. This is the Pegasus galaxy, home of diseases they've never even imagined.
Which is exactly what she did when it persisted.





What experience do you have as CMO of international expeditions or CMO of anything at all? CMOs do not do what Jennifer does. Neither do Military COs. The writers expect us to completely suspend our disbelief.
I spent 20 years in the service around many CMO's and CO's so I should ask the same of you. What exactly are you implying she isn't doing that she should? She is a competant doctor and CMO IMO.


If you think they're writing them well, believably and realistically (as in "as they would be like in the real world"), then you need to read up more on how the world works in these regards (CMOs and COs).
Bite me. Just because we disagree does not make me stupid or wrong. Show me proof that she is acting unrealistically and unprofessionally and I will debate you.

Briangate78
December 3rd, 2008, 06:28 PM
Don't know if Mckeller will last long, but the constant bickering about Mckeller will likely go on till the end of time. :S

FallenAngelII
December 4th, 2008, 09:43 AM
I'll grant you that her feelings lead her to take too long to diagnose his condition but it didn't almost lead to his death. If you are referring to her not wanting to take Rodney to the Shrine that was the right call.
It did too.

It took a reckless mission to an alien planet in the hopes of finding some weird Shrine which would allow them to "say goodbye" to Rodney (and then have him die) and the lucky break of finding out that it was an Ancient temple which drove the parasite close enough to the surface that they could operate it out of him.

In other words, pure dumb luck. Had they not gone on the misssion, he would've died. Had there not been a shrine, he would've died. Had the shrine not been Ancient, he would've died.

In other words, it nearly killed him.


What is Keller a mind reader now? All she knew is he was acting anxious she had no idea he was seeing and talking to an "imaginary" friend.
He wasn't acting anxious. Anyone who wasn't too much in a hurry to dismiss him would've known he was being strange. The way he talked, the things he said. Why would he question her being in the database?

Why was he looking at certain spot of the room as if someone was there?


Actually lack of sleep and excessive stress can lead to sensory deprivation which can lead to hallucinations.
Most people don't see hallucinate other people (who speak). That's not how hallucinations work. However, I'll conceede that Jennifer had no way of knowing that this was what was going on.


Which is exactly what she did when it persisted.
Too late. She admitted to having been too slow due to enjoying the new Rodney too much.


I spent 20 years in the service around many CMO's and CO's so I should ask the same of you. What exactly are you implying she isn't doing that she should? She is a competant doctor and CMO IMO.
CMOs and COs are more of desk-type persons in administration. They are not in the thick of things. They're the people behind the behind, not the front-runners at war.

We never actually see Jennifer do anything CMO:y. We see John do tons of non-CO:y things all the time.


Bite me. Just because we disagree does not make me stupid or wrong.
I never said you were stupid. I implied you didn't know how CO's operate. It is not a crime to imply the opposition is wrong.


Show me proof that she is acting unrealistically and unprofessionally and I will debate you.
The above.

Mitchell82
December 4th, 2008, 11:29 AM
It did too.

It took a reckless mission to an alien planet in the hopes of finding some weird Shrine which would allow them to "say goodbye" to Rodney (and then have him die) and the lucky break of finding out that it was an Ancient temple which drove the parasite close enough to the surface that they could operate it out of him.

In other words, pure dumb luck. Had they not gone on the misssion, he would've died. Had there not been a shrine, he would've died. Had the shrine not been Ancient, he would've died.

In other words, it nearly killed him.
Which was not her fault. Had their not been a Shrine there would not have been a damn thing she could do to save him.



He wasn't acting anxious. Anyone who wasn't too much in a hurry to dismiss him would've known he was being strange. The way he talked, the things he said. Why would he question her being in the database?
Many would dismiss it as stress.


Most people don't see hallucinate other people (who speak). That's not how hallucinations work.
Severe hallucinations do. But I'll concede most normal ones don't.

However, I'll conceede that Jennifer had no way of knowing that this was what was going on.
At least we agree on something.



Too late. She admitted to having been too slow due to enjoying the new Rodney too much.
I'll concede her actions were hampered by her feelings, but there was nothing that could have been done to save him.


[QUOUTE]CMOs and COs are more of desk-type persons in administration. They are not in the thick of things. They're the people behind the behind, not the front-runners at war.[/QUOTE]
True however CMO's are not just desk jockeys they do actually still practice medicine.


We never actually see Jennifer do anything CMO:y. We see John do tons of non-CO:y things all the time.
Really? Lets see when John is in command he gives orders a to what needs to be done, he checks on research, authorizes what things to do and not do while at the same time doing things that need to be done not just sitting around. Keller does the same.



I never said you were stupid. I implied you didn't know how CO's operate. It is not a crime to imply the opposition is wrong.


The above.
It is when you assume that because we disagree I know nothing about the subject. There is a word for that. Arrogance.

s09119
December 4th, 2008, 11:44 AM
It did too.

It took a reckless mission to an alien planet in the hopes of finding some weird Shrine which would allow them to "say goodbye" to Rodney (and then have him die) and the lucky break of finding out that it was an Ancient temple which drove the parasite close enough to the surface that they could operate it out of him.

In other words, pure dumb luck. Had they not gone on the misssion, he would've died. Had there not been a shrine, he would've died. Had the shrine not been Ancient, he would've died.

In other words, it nearly killed him.

The point is her reasoning, not her actions; she wanted him in Atlantis where proven medicine and science could take a crack at saving him, instead of taking him to some fantastical Shrine on a Wraith-controlled planet that was most-likely to get them all killed. With such a group going into a situation as dangerous as that, it would, logistically, make more sense to have Rodney die and preserve the lives of Keller, Ronon, Jeanie, Sheppard, and Teyla.

And you don't know he would have died. There is the possibility that Jennifer could have found a way to get the thing out back on Atlantis. We'll never know.


He wasn't acting anxious. Anyone who wasn't too much in a hurry to dismiss him would've known he was being strange. The way he talked, the things he said. Why would he question her being in the database?

Why was he looking at certain spot of the room as if someone was there?

That was done for the audience's benefit, to show the fact that he was hallucinating. Note that no one else seriously questioned his behavior, either, ranging from a gate technician to a soldier to an IOA ambassador. So it's not like Keller was any less perceptive on that front than the rest of them, and it may well have been done for the plot's sake (no, it was).


Most people don't see hallucinate other people (who speak). That's not how hallucinations work. However, I'll conceede that Jennifer had no way of knowing that this was what was going on.

Of course she couldn't.


Too late. She admitted to having been too slow due to enjoying the new Rodney too much.

Let's pretend a doctor has been working with a terminally-ill cancer patient for many years, and the patient's death is fast approaching. Suddenly, without any reason at all, the cancer seems to vanish, and the stunned doctor runs several tests on the patient, all of which reveal nothing. The patient returns to his family and is ecstatic, happily enjoying life again, and the doctor moves onto his next case, amazed yet-again at the wonders the human body can pull off.

A year later, the patient is dead and it is revealed that he had a rare virus that ate away the cancerous cells, curing him of that affliction. But then, with nothing else to feed on, it began eating away at the patient from the inside out. No one ever noticed, though, because they were all so convinced the cancer had either gone into undetectable remission or had, as it rarely but sometimes does, just vanished.

Do you think the doctor is to blame for the death of the patient? He was, after all, so caught up in being happy for his patient, and not seeing anything else wrong with him, that he moved on. But how could he have known or done anything else? All the tools available to him said the patient was fine!


CMOs and COs are more of desk-type persons in administration. They are not in the thick of things. They're the people behind the behind, not the front-runners at war.

We never actually see Jennifer do anything CMO:y. We see John do tons of non-CO:y things all the time.

Because most of her work is done offscreen (same with Dr. Frasier and Dr. Lam), and the times we have seen her, she usually is (she's been working on curing Beckett's cellular degradation and modifying the Hoffan drug and tweaking the retrovirus, etc.).

FallenAngelII
December 4th, 2008, 11:51 PM
Which was not her fault. Had their not been a Shrine there would not have been a damn thing she could do to save him.
You're misunderstanding me entirely.

Had she just done the damn follow up scans instead of being busy sharing fruit cups and being smitten by the New Rodney, she would've discovered the parasite in time to operate on it without causing significant brain damage!

Now if the Shrine hadn't existed or if hadn't worked, Rodney would've died. And he almost did, he was close to dying when they decided to go on that forcockamania "mission".

Which translates into: Jennifer's mistake almost cost Rodney his life.

This has nothing to do with the fact that she was against the mission. It has to do with her missing the follow-up scans despite Rodney's unusual behavior.


Many would dismiss it as stress.
Many do not work in the Pegasus Galaxy where 2 senior staff members have been possessed by alien consciousnesses. Even in the Milky Way, there were aliens capable of perfectly mimicking people through holograms and robots and whatnot.

Soon to be three.

People need to be more on alert.


Severe hallucinations do. But I'll concede most normal ones don't.
Exactly. And the stress Richard's been through most probably hasn't been enough to cause hallucinations that severe.

And if it has been, what the hell is Jennifer doing just prescribing him sleeping medication and sending him his merry way?! When things have progressed that far, you don't just let the patient self-medicate himself on sleeping pills!

You send him to stress relief, counselors, shrinks, etc. Especially if he holds the lives of hundreds in his hands on a weekly basis.


I'll concede her actions were hampered by her feelings, but there was nothing that could have been done to save him.
Not the point. Had she done the scans early on and discovered it, he could've operated on it. Her feelings clouded her judgment in not detecting the parasite early enough to operate.


True however CMO's are not just desk jockeys they do actually still practice medicine.
But they do not do it the way Atlantis' CMO's do it. And they most certainly don't randomly go off wandering off-world every now and then either.


Really? Lets see when John is in command he gives orders a to what needs to be done, he checks on research, authorizes what things to do and not do while at the same time doing things that need to be done not just sitting around. Keller does the same.
Don't make me start on John and his reckless behavior as CO, constantly putting himself on the front line, going on suicide missions and letting his libido get the best of him at the worst of times.


It is when you assume that because we disagree I know nothing about the subject. There is a word for that. Arrogance.
It's not because we disagree. It's because I know for a fact that John is grossly incompetent for his post and does things wrong, wrong, wrong. And I know this not merely through personal experiences, personal research and personal knowledge, I know this because actual career military men have corroborated that John is grossly incompetent and does things COs don't actually do.

Now he might do things COs do, but he certainly doesn't do them enough (from what we get to see or hear of). He also does tons of things COs don't do. If you think he's a perfectly little CO, then you just need to read up on it.

FallenAngelII
December 4th, 2008, 11:59 PM
The point is her reasoning, not her actions; she wanted him in Atlantis where proven medicine and science could take a crack at saving him, instead of taking him to some fantastical Shrine on a Wraith-controlled planet that was most-likely to get them all killed. With such a group going into a situation as dangerous as that, it would, logistically, make more sense to have Rodney die and preserve the lives of Keller, Ronon, Jeanie, Sheppard, and Teyla.
Read my reply to Mitchell82.


And you don't know he would have died. There is the possibility that Jennifer could have found a way to get the thing out back on Atlantis. We'll never know.
They admitted to there being nothing they could do (unless Jennifer had an Eureka). He was barely alive, pretty much at death's door, a few days, maybe.

And even if she managed to save him then, he still would've almost died, which was my argument. Her mistake put him in mortal jeopardy.


That was done for the audience's benefit, to show the fact that he was hallucinating. Note that no one else seriously questioned his behavior, either, ranging from a gate technician to a soldier to an IOA ambassador. So it's not like Keller was any less perceptive on that front than the rest of them, and it may well have been done for the plot's sake (no, it was).
No, but they're not medical doctors, charged to do stuff like detect illnesses, strange behavior and treat them.

As CMO of Atlantis, she should be on the lookout for both Earthly and alien afflictions.


Let's pretend a doctor has been working with a terminally-ill cancer patient for many years, and the patient's death is fast approaching. Suddenly, without any reason at all, the cancer seems to vanish, and the stunned doctor runs several tests on the patient, all of which reveal nothing. The patient returns to his family and is ecstatic, happily enjoying life again, and the doctor moves onto his next case, amazed yet-again at the wonders the human body can pull off.
I'm sorry, wherein this lies a sudden, unexplained and persistent change in personality?


Do you think the doctor is to blame for the death of the patient? He was, after all, so caught up in being happy for his patient, and not seeing anything else wrong with him, that he moved on. But how could he have known or done anything else? All the tools available to him said the patient was fine!
Maybe you didn't know this, but if someone has cancer and it miraculously goes away, people do tests upon tests to not only ensure that it's really gone but also to see if it can be replicated in order to create a cure for cancer.

People aren't just sent on their merry way when they miraculously "get rid" of cancer, just as people aren't ignored when they display sudden and unexplaining shifts in personality.


Because most of her work is done offscreen (same with Dr. Frasier and Dr. Lam), and the times we have seen her, she usually is (she's been working on curing Beckett's cellular degradation and modifying the Hoffan drug and tweaking the retrovirus, etc.).
We also see her do stuff like randomly go off-world to distribute medicine to alien planets. We also see her always in the thick of things, the main doctor in times of emergency and just in general.

Whenever someone comes into the infirmary, who's the doctor there to take care of them? Yes, Jennifer.

nx01a
December 5th, 2008, 02:15 PM
Don't know if Mckeller will last long, but the constant bickering about Mckeller will likely go on till the end of time. :SMcKeller bickering 4 eva!

Mitchell82
December 7th, 2008, 09:21 AM
You're misunderstanding me entirely.

Had she just done the damn follow up scans instead of being busy sharing fruit cups and being smitten by the New Rodney, she would've discovered the parasite in time to operate on it without causing significant brain damage!
We don't know that. Speculating on that is just that.


Now if the Shrine hadn't existed or if hadn't worked, Rodney would've died. And he almost did, he was close to dying when they decided to go on that forcockamania "mission".

Which translates into: Jennifer's mistake almost cost Rodney his life.

This has nothing to do with the fact that she was against the mission. It has to do with her missing the follow-up scans despite Rodney's unusual behavior.
I disagree. Yes her judgment was a bit impaired but she didn't she anything that would indicate something was wrong.



Many do not work in the Pegasus Galaxy where 2 senior staff members have been possessed by alien consciousnesses. Even in the Milky Way, there were aliens capable of perfectly mimicking people through holograms and robots and whatnot.

Soon to be three.

People need to be more on alert.
They are very alert there was nothing to indicate anything was wrong.



Exactly. And the stress Richard's been through most probably hasn't been enough to cause hallucinations that severe.

And if it has been, what the hell is Jennifer doing just prescribing him sleeping medication and sending him his merry way?! When things have progressed that far, you don't just let the patient self-medicate himself on sleeping pills!

You send him to stress relief, counselors, shrinks, etc. Especially if he holds the lives of hundreds in his hands on a weekly basis.
If the symptoms persisted and there was evidence of potential harm to him or others yes, but in this case she acted correctly with the information at her disposal.



Not the point. Had she done the scans early on and discovered it, he could've operated on it. Her feelings clouded her judgment in not detecting the parasite early enough to operate.
Which shows she is human and can make mistakes but you have to look at this objectively. There was nothing to indicate he was gravely ill and there is no proof that she could have saved him.



But they do not do it the way Atlantis' CMO's do it. And they most certainly don't randomly go off wandering off-world every now and then either.
Incorrect. CMO's do go on missions as needed just like Keller.



Don't make me start on John and his reckless behavior as CO, constantly putting himself on the front line, going on suicide missions and letting his libido get the best of him at the worst of times.


It's not because we disagree. It's because I know for a fact that John is grossly incompetent for his post and does things wrong, wrong, wrong. And I know this not merely through personal experiences, personal research and personal knowledge, I know this because actual career military men have corroborated that John is grossly incompetent and does things COs don't actually do.
And I can say for certain that while he does make mistakes from time to time he is not grossly incompetent at all. He is very experienced and does know what he is doing.


Now he might do things COs do, but he certainly doesn't do them enough (from what we get to see or hear of). He also does tons of things COs don't do. If you think he's a perfectly little CO, then you just need to read up on it.
I never said he was perfect no CO is though he does act like a CO should.

Mitchell82
December 7th, 2008, 09:26 AM
The point is her reasoning, not her actions; she wanted him in Atlantis where proven medicine and science could take a crack at saving him, instead of taking him to some fantastical Shrine on a Wraith-controlled planet that was most-likely to get them all killed. With such a group going into a situation as dangerous as that, it would, logistically, make more sense to have Rodney die and preserve the lives of Keller, Ronon, Jeanie, Sheppard, and Teyla.
Very well put.


And you don't know he would have died. There is the possibility that Jennifer could have found a way to get the thing out back on Atlantis. We'll never know.
Exactly. We don't truly know what would have happened.


?

That was done for the audience's benefit, to show the fact that he was hallucinating. Note that no one else seriously questioned his behavior, either, ranging from a gate technician to a soldier to an IOA ambassador. So it's not like Keller was any less perceptive on that front than the rest of them, and it may well have been done for the plot's sake (no, it was).
Exactly she didn't see what we did.




Of course she couldn't.



Let's pretend a doctor has been working with a terminally-ill cancer patient for many years, and the patient's death is fast approaching. Suddenly, without any reason at all, the cancer seems to vanish, and the stunned doctor runs several tests on the patient, all of which reveal nothing. The patient returns to his family and is ecstatic, happily enjoying life again, and the doctor moves onto his next case, amazed yet-again at the wonders the human body can pull off.

A year later, the patient is dead and it is revealed that he had a rare virus that ate away the cancerous cells, curing him of that affliction. But then, with nothing else to feed on, it began eating away at the patient from the inside out. No one ever noticed, though, because they were all so convinced the cancer had either gone into undetectable remission or had, as it rarely but sometimes does, just vanished.

Do you think the doctor is to blame for the death of the patient? He was, after all, so caught up in being happy for his patient, and not seeing anything else wrong with him, that he moved on. But how could he have known or done anything else? All the tools available to him said the patient was fine!
Very good analogy I agree.




Because most of her work is done offscreen (same with Dr. Frasier and Dr. Lam), and the times we have seen her, she usually is (she's been working on curing Beckett's cellular degradation and modifying the Hoffan drug and tweaking the retrovirus, etc.).
Bingo.

Ikaros
December 11th, 2008, 12:11 PM
OK, they may have done the Mile High Monkey Dance, but I don't think this relationship is long for the world, any more than Rodney and Katie's.
For various reasons, one being that he will have to work too hard to change his fundamental personality, she likes him "domesticated."
Over time, this has got to hurt a relationship.
Also, in the Last Man, it ended in tragedy, perhaps fate will intervene and repeat itself?

This is more "wishfull thinking" than reasonable point.
They both have to go off world and work in the same dangerous project, witch is Atlantis.
She doesn't like him "domesticated" where did you get that out from? I never noticed her treating him like she means something like this.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 02:55 PM
For the love of god, some of you guys just don't get it, do you? This is not the real world. The Atlantis expedition and the SGC have gone through some whacked out things. Electronic entities taking over the base, alien possessions, clones, robots. Atlantis is located in an alien galaxy.

When someone exhibits a sudden, unexplained and persistent change in personality, then you have to question why it's happening! If it were Earth, Jennifer did nothing wrong. But this is Pegasus. You can never be careful enough.

Ikaros
December 12th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Are you saying that Rodney will stop loving her because she is "stupid" or "weak" enough to be possesed by an allien entity?
Or am i not getting what you're saying ? again...?

Louis_Vuitton
December 16th, 2008, 02:08 PM
But they do not do it the way Atlantis' CMO's do it. And they most certainly don't randomly go off wandering off-world every now and then either.

No I'm sure most CMO's certainly do not go wandering around off-world:):)



It's not because we disagree. It's because I know for a fact that John is grossly incompetent for his post and does things wrong, wrong, wrong. And I know this not merely through personal experiences, personal research and personal knowledge, I know this because actual career military men have corroborated that John is grossly incompetent and does things COs don't actually do.

I have to agree John definately isn't a perfect CO, though I don't think anyone is suggesting he's perfect. I don't know if I would say he's grossly incompetent though but I can't deny he doesn't play by the rules. In most situations by the book is probably how a CO should be. For Atlantis though I think though imperfect and in the beginning unprepared that he is this right man for the Job.



Now he might do things COs do, but he certainly doesn't do them enough (from what we get to see or hear of). He also does tons of things COs don't do. If you think he's a perfectly little CO, then you just need to read up on it.

I'm glad you mention from what we see and hear because of course we'e not going to see more of him behind a desk. How boring would that be?


For the love of god, some of you guys just don't get it, do you? This is not the real world. The Atlantis expedition and the SGC have gone through some whacked out things. Electronic entities taking over the base, alien possessions, clones, robots. Atlantis is located in an alien galaxy.

When someone exhibits a sudden, unexplained and persistent change in personality, then you have to question why it's happening! If it were Earth, Jennifer did nothing wrong. But this is Pegasus. You can never be careful enough.

She definately made a mistake, a big mistake that almost cost Rodney his life. I have a hard time really blaming her for it even though she clearly blames herself. I think it was a pretty human mistake and it's not like Rodney couldn't just be changing. Although that big of a change the suddenly would be a change. Toss in her feelings for him and her possible hope he's trying to be nicer for her and I think it's pretty understandable she missed it. Though I might just be more forgiving than I should be in her profession and your right in Atlantis especially maybe she should have thought more into it.

As for Mckeller lasting, I can't see it going away anytime soon. I think it would take a big change to seperate them I mean they love each other. Also I can understand people not liking the relationship, personally I think it's great, but the awkwardness that would be caused if they broke up would just be awful