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FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 05:57 AM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.

And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.

If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.

Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.

Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.

No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

ykickamoocow
November 25th, 2008, 06:02 AM
Yes but deep down i think McKay wants to be changed.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 06:06 AM
Yes but deep down i think McKay wants to be changed.
Everyone else on Atlantis seems to not want him to change. They know that his "arrogance" isn't really arrogance at all since his high image of himself is 100% correct. He is just that intelligent.

Rodney shouldn't want to be changed. If his personality puts some people off, then so be it. If people will let first impressions shape their entire relationship with someone, then they're not worth your time.

Not everyone has to be friends.

Jackie
November 25th, 2008, 06:11 AM
LOL...the writers love to change Rodney. Make him into the "always right" boob that is always afflicted by another character in some shape or form. It's nothing new.

As far as "deep down inside he wants to change." Oh, come on! If he wants to change he will do it on his own.

ToasterOnFire
November 25th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Since TPTB either love to show McKay acting immaturely or show growth one ep only to have him revert to immaturity the next, I won't be surprised if Keller is relegated to McKay's keeper - rolling her eyes, crossing her arms, trying to keep him in line, hell even promising nookie if he behaves himself. O_O

Ikaros
November 25th, 2008, 06:24 AM
It's not changing him, it's bringing his better self on.What is wrong with that? People that love you are usually the ones that are hurting you, by pointing out your mistakes and your flaws.

Vala_M
November 25th, 2008, 06:26 AM
Good point, I didn't notice that. I thought she just wanted him to be polite at the event.

Vala,

fumblesmcstupid
November 25th, 2008, 06:33 AM
Rodney??

Polite???

Oh Whew!

I just laughed so hard It hurt!

Oh good one!

Pandora's_Box
November 25th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Hmmm... now I know I didn't like this episode and how this whole romance came about, but I'm sitting here and thinking if Jennifer attempting to change him was, in fact, just that, or whether it was a well-intentioned act of love. After all, those that love us are often in the best position to help us lessen our flaws, and as much as we may find Rodney's arrogance endearing, he is not without his flaws.

His genius does not exempt him from exhibiting general good manners nor does it excuse him from being unnecessarily rude. I think Jennifer saw the man she loved as, not needing to be changed, but as misunderstood and resented by his peers and thought maybe she could make it easier for him to get along with other people.

I'm in full agreement that if she truly loves him than she should love him warts and all, but that doesn't mean that if she sees Rodney do something wrong or treat a person badly she shouldn't point it out or try to help him temper whatever bad habits he has.

Love is supposed to better a person. I think Jennifer was just trying to help him, not transform him into Prince Charming.

Ikaros
November 25th, 2008, 06:55 AM
She was just protecting him from people's "socially sensitive" eyes. If that makes any sense in english.....

Cory Holmes
November 25th, 2008, 06:56 AM
Maybe she was trying to change him at the start and middle of the episode, but at the end he did point out that "this is who I am" and she seemed to accept that.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 07:54 AM
It's not changing him, it's bringing his better self on.What is wrong with that? People that love you are usually the ones that are hurting you, by pointing out your mistakes and your flaws.
His better self? Wait... what? How is it not changing when she tells him to stop acting how he's always acted and act in an entirely new way? How is that bringing out his better self? It's not a part of him!


Stuff.
This would be credible in my eyes if she hadn't rolled her eyes, looked uncomfortable and disapproving and all that all throughout the episode.

I interpreted it as her disapproving of his behavior and wanting to change him to suit how she wants him to be. After all, he was right all along. Everything he said was the truth. If people don't want to believe him, that's their loss.


Maybe she was trying to change him at the start and middle of the episode, but at the end he did point out that "this is who I am" and she seemed to accept that.
Doesn't change the fact that she tried to change him to begin with. That's not unconditional love.

Cory Holmes
November 25th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Doesn't change the fact that she tried to change him to begin with. That's not unconditional love.

Yeah and he called her on it. He put up with it for her until he couldn't any longer and she seemed to realize it when he stopped her.

Crazedwraith
November 25th, 2008, 09:30 AM
On the one hand, you're right. She is trying to change him and I can see thing going badly in the relationship if she keeps it up.

On the other hand its not a unrealistic aspect to a relationship; lots of people like to think they can change their partner. Furthermore, relationships to a certain extent should be about change: neither partner can have it all their own way they have to compromise to make it work.

Finally, the idea that Rodney's arrogance is always accurate and totally reasonable its utterly laughable. Security =/= Arrogance. One can be a genius and not be an arrogant git. Take Carter for example.

Ironically, the last ful episode I watched of SGA was "The Tao Of Rodney" an episode that starts of with him betting everyone a month's pay that he can fix something from the control room. He can't. Then he goes double or nothing, when he tries to fix a console and it explodes in his face and zaps with a potential lethal beam.

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 11:37 AM
Perhaps changing him is not her intention at all.

Perhaps what we've seen so far is more her ability to not take any crap from Rodney.

The scene in the airplane is the perfect example.

He says that he's been thinking about leaving the SGC and joining the private sector, to which her reply was, "What? No you haven't."

It's perfect. We all know Rodney isn't leaving Atlantis, and she knows that as well, and she called him on it.

I know we're in the Brain Storm thread but I put it spoiler tags just in case.

And even if she is, so? Everyone strives to be better than they are, whether it's better at your job, a better husband, a better mother...everyone tries to grow. Someone said once that we never stop growing inside, only outside.

Is it not conceivable that the most intelligent man in two galaxies strives to be a better person? And if so, isn't it equally conceivable (and evident) that he doesn't know how to achieve that? I've said that this relationship would work because Jenn wouldn't take Rodney's crap and appears to be able to lead rather than follow in a relationship, which is what Rodney needs and why Rodney and Katie failed, as Katie was more timid than looked to Rodney to lead.

Reiko
November 25th, 2008, 11:47 AM
It's just my opinion, but I've seen nothing to indicate that Rodney and Keller are suitible partners or if this is something more than mere infaturation. :rolleyes:

fumblesmcstupid
November 25th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Last time I looked Rodney wasn't a DOG who needed to be lead ANYWHERE!

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 12:28 PM
Yeah and he called her on it. He put up with it for her until he couldn't any longer and she seemed to realize it when he stopped her.
I don't think he called her on it. He just said he couldn't change, that it was not in his nature to be the way she wanted him to be. He didn't seem to blame her for wanting to change him at all.

Also, doesn't change the fact that she tried to change him in the first place. "I've loved you for a very long time" my behind. She loves the man she wants him to be.



On the other hand its not a unrealistic aspect to a relationship; lots of people like to think they can change their partner. Furthermore, relationships to a certain extent should be about change: neither partner can have it all their own way they have to compromise to make it work.
But this part of his personality isn't causing a rift in their relationship. She just doesn't want to be seen in public with a man who acts the way Rodney acts because she feels it's a bad way to act. In other words, she dislikes the world seeing her with Rodney the way he is and is trying to change him for that, not because the way Rodney is is in any way detrimental to their fundamental interpersonal relationship.


Finally, the idea that Rodney's arrogance is always accurate and totally reasonable its utterly laughable. Security =/= Arrogance. One can be a genius and not be an arrogant git. Take Carter for example.
Don't "interpret" my words and then try to refute them. I never said he's always right and that his arrogance is always justified. I said that in this case, it is. And most of the time, it is.


Perhaps changing him is not her intention at all.

Perhaps what we've seen so far is more her ability to not take any crap from Rodney.

The scene in the airplane is the perfect example.

He says that he's been thinking about leaving the SGC and joining the private sector, to which her reply was, "What? No you haven't."

It's perfect. We all know Rodney isn't leaving Atlantis, and she knows that as well, and she called him on it.
Wow, you're reading too much into that one line. And who are we to say he hasn't thought about it?


And even if she is, so? Everyone strives to be better than they are, whether it's better at your job, a better husband, a better mother...everyone tries to grow. Someone said once that we never stop growing inside, only outside.
The point is that she's supposedly in love with Rodney, that she's supposedly loved him "for a very long time".

Only... this episode reveals that's a lie. She doesn't love him for who he is at all. She wants to change many fundamental aspects of his personality. She loves the man she believes she can transform him into.

Now, it's not fundamentally wrong to want to change your loved one for the better. But wanting to change him to that extent? That's not loving him unconditionally. It's not even loving him. It's loving your dream image of him.

SoulReaver
November 25th, 2008, 12:32 PM
I agree Keller's just plain wrong - it's up to the woman to adapt to the man, not the other way around







http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/topicalacon.gif

tombombadil
November 25th, 2008, 12:34 PM
if she ever yells at him for leaving the toilet seat up, i'm done with the show!!:p

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 12:56 PM
Wow, you're reading too much into that one line. And who are we to say he hasn't thought about it?

Hardly...I was just using that one line as an example.

And now you're ready a lot into one line. When in the previous, I don't know, 30 episodes have we had any indication at all that he was thinking of quitting? One that I can think of- 'The Last Man', and that was AU and because Jennifer died.


The point is that she's supposedly in love with Rodney, that she's supposedly loved him "for a very long time".

Only... this episode reveals that's a lie. She doesn't love him for who he is at all. She wants to change many fundamental aspects of his personality. She loves the man she believes she can transform him into.

Now, it's not fundamentally wrong to want to change your loved one for the better. But wanting to change him to that extent? That's not loving him unconditionally. It's not even loving him. It's loving your dream image of him.

To what "many fundamental aspects" are you referring? Humility? What else?

What have we seen that Jennifer could have fallen in love with? Bravery, intelligence, strength of will, fortitude of spirit, tenacity and much more, none of which we have any indication that she's trying to beat out of him.

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 12:56 PM
if she ever yells at him for leaving the toilet seat up, i'm done with the show!!:p

roflmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crazedwraith
November 25th, 2008, 01:28 PM
But this part of his personality isn't causing a rift in their relationship. She just doesn't want to be seen in public with a man who acts the way Rodney acts because she feels it's a bad way to act. In other words, she dislikes the world seeing her with Rodney the way he is and is trying to change him for that, not because the way Rodney is is in any way detrimental to their fundamental interpersonal relationship.
I'm not disagreeing with this and again, the behaviour you describe is still not unrealistic. People do get into relationships and then try and change things about their partner that they see as bad.

I doubt that's the way the writers intended it to come off but there you go.



Don't "interpret" my words and then try to refute them.

Whoa. I'm getting Deja Vu. ;) I'm not ever trying to 'interpret' you posts into an argument I can refute. If buy that you're implying that I'm intentionally misunderstanding you which is not the case. Any misunderstandings are accidental. I'm not psychic; I don't exactly what you mean.



I never said he's always right and that his arrogance is always justified. I said that in this case, it is. And most of the time, it is.

All right but you said:


Everyone else on Atlantis seems to not want him to change. They know that his "arrogance" isn't really arrogance at all since his high image of himself is 100% correct. He is just that intelligent.

I'm struggling to see how your use of the phrase "100%", is ambiguous.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 01:38 PM
And now you're ready a lot into one line. When in the previous, I don't know, 30 episodes have we had any indication at all that he was thinking of quitting? One that I can think of- 'The Last Man', and that was AU and because Jennifer died.
Hey, did we hear anything that indicated John had an ex-wife until he told Rodney he did? Did we see anything indicating Rodney had "loved Jennifer for a very long time" until he said he had (and by anything, I mean hints that he loved her, not that he liked her)?

There's tons of stuff we never hear about 'til we hear it. Rodney said it. Jennifer said he lied. So... because Jennifer said so, it's the truth?


To what "many fundamental aspects" are you referring? Humility? What else?
The word "humility" can be stretched to encompass a lot of things, but for one thing, she thinks it's strange to want credit for what is rightfully yours. She also wants him not to speak his mind if it disrupts the situation. For instance, when he stood up to warn people, she kept trying to drag him back down.

At least she also died because of it.


What have we seen that Jennifer could have fallen in love with? Bravery, intelligence, strength of will, fortitude of spirit, tenacity and much more, none of which we have any indication that she's trying to beat out of him.
I'm sorry, Jennifer has personally seen all of this when? It's not like she's actually on SGA-1.


I'm not disagreeing with this and again, the behaviour you describe is still not unrealistic.
I'm sorry, I said it was unrealistic when?


People do get into relationships and then try and change things about their partner that they see as bad.
But that is not loving someone unconditionally "for a very long time". That's loving certain aspects of someone.


Whoa. I'm getting Deja Vu. ;) I'm not ever trying to 'interpret' you posts into an argument I can refute. If buy that you're implying that I'm intentionally misunderstanding you which is not the case. Any misunderstandings are accidental. I'm not psychic; I don't exactly what you mean.
No, I'm telling you to not interpret, ever. Take my words for their face value. Do not infer things, do not assume things. Half of the disagreements people have with me is over their inability to just take what I write at face value without "interpreting" that if I say something, I must also be saying this other, closely related thing.


I'm struggling to see how your use of the phrase "100%", is ambiguous.
I said that his high image of himself, as in how intelligent he is. I never said he was never wrong. Of course, you could argue that part of Rodney's image of himself that he is never ever wrong but I've never seen or heard anything to indicate that.

He just thinks that him being wrong is highly unlikely. There was Doronda, after all.

Muh_tuttles
November 25th, 2008, 01:44 PM
People can love someone and want to change them still. People have loved others for their good points or for the potential that they show for being the best they can be. Keller wanting Rodney to change doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she wants the best for him and wants him to be the best he can be.

Having said that, relationships with people who want you to change them, or in when you want them to change, don't always work out. This is coming from personal experience here unfortunately. Rodney will probably soon get sick of Keller going on at him if she continues on as she has done. Accepting him for who he is would be easier for her and him, but she can still subtly help him change.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Stuf that makes it clear you didn't read my entire posts
Go back and re-read. Nowhere do I say you cannot love someone without wanting to change them.

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 01:50 PM
Hey, did we hear anything that indicated John had an ex-wife until he told Rodney he did? Did we see anything indicating Rodney had "loved Jennifer for a very long time" until he said he had (and by anything, I mean hints that he loved her, not that he liked her)?

There's tons of stuff we never hear about 'til we hear it. Rodney said it. Jennifer said he lied. So... because Jennifer said so, it's the truth?

I'll concede the essence of this part of your post. The only way to know for sure if he actually meant it or he was just mouthing off is to wait and see what happens. I'll bet the farm that he doesn't...



The word "humility" can be stretched to encompass a lot of things, but for one thing, she thinks it's strange to want credit for what is rightfully yours. She also wants him not to speak his mind if it disrupts the situation. For instance, when he stood up to warn people, she kept trying to drag him back down.

I don't hink it's not that she didn't want him to take credit for his work, but more the method and the arena in which he was trying to do it. What did standing up and speaking about it in his usual Rodney-esque way accomplish? Nothing, other than alienate those who he was trying to warn and invite ridicule upon himself. It may have been the time to speak, but it wasn't the way.


I'm sorry, Jennifer has personally seen all of this when? It's not like she's actually on SGA-1.

You just made a valid point in another post that we don't see everything. But 'Trio' comes to mind, and 'Tracker' and 'The Seed' immediately comes to mind where she might have seen those qualities first hand.

Bacardi
November 25th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Rodney has already shown he is the person Keller fell in love with. The AU "Rod" showed us a Rodney who embraced his selfless and polite side. Our Rodney is like that too its just his own shortcomings, which he has openly admitted to in the past, get in the way of permanently being like that.

His insecurities cause him to put up a prickly wall around himself. Maybe Keller just wants him to feel secure enough to keep his defences to a minimum. Shes not trying to change him, just to persuade him that he can be the nice guy he knows he wants to be.

Maybe being in a relationship with Keller will allow that side to show through. Either that or he'll be even more smug with himself. In either case, being in love changes a person anyway.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 01:59 PM
I'll concede the essence of this part of your post. The only way to know for sure if he actually meant it or he was just mouthing off is to wait and see what happens. I'll bet the farm that he doesn't...
Even if he doesn't, it won't mean he hasn't thought about it, which is what he said. He didn't say he was going to.


I don't hink it's not that she didn't want him to take credit for his work, but more the method and the arena in which he was trying to do it.
Rodney wrote the paper Tunney stole his theory from. Rodney also came up with the plan which eventually saved everybody. Rodney thought it was preposterous he received zero credit for it (I agree).

Jennifer thought it was strange for him to want credit for it.


What did standing up and speaking about it in his usual Rodney-esque way accomplish? Nothing, other than alienate those who he was trying to warn and invite ridicule upon himself. It may have been the time to speak, but it wasn't the way.
What would have happened if he had managed to convince them not to turn it on? For one thing, no structural damage and no people getting hurt.

Rodney was trying to stop a catastrophe.


You just made a valid point in another post that we don't see everything. But 'Trio' comes to mind, and 'Tracker' and 'The Seed' immediately comes to mind where she might have seen those qualities first hand.
Jennifer was kidnapped for most of "Tracker". She wouldn't know exactly what Rodney and Ronon did. Jennifer was also trapped in her own body in "The Seed" and, hey, wasn't it Ronon and John who went out to save the day in that one? Rodney barely contributed since he was in quarantine.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Rodney has already shown he is the person Keller fell in love with. The AU "Rod" showed us a Rodney who embraced his selfless and polite side. Our Rodney is like that too its just his own shortcomings, which he has openly admitted to in the past, get in the way of permanently being like that.

His insecurities cause him to put up a prickly wall around himself. Maybe Keller just wants him to feel secure enough to keep his defences to a minimum. Shes not trying to change him, just to persuade him that he can be the nice guy he knows he wants to be.

Maybe being in a relationship with Keller will allow that side to show through. Either that or he'll be even more smug with himself. In either case, being in love changes a person anyway.
But that's an AU in which tons of things that didn't occur in our timeline occurred. People change. Change the game board and people change in different ways.

Also, from what we know, Jennifer hardly knows Rodney. And she's not that good of a judge of character. How the heck would she know the man Rodney really wants to be? And how would she know what AU!Rodney was like?

Crazedwraith
November 25th, 2008, 02:02 PM
I'm sorry, I said it was unrealistic when?

I'm sorry. I said you said that. Where? It was not disagreeing with you on this point. Simply adding an addendum.



But that is not loving someone unconditionally "for a very long time". That's loving certain aspects of someone.
You can love someone and still acknowledge they have flaws. You can still love them unconditionally and want to help them better themselves. There's no evidence Keller's going to dump him if he doesn't improve for example.



No, I'm telling you to not interpret, ever. Take my words for their face value.
I'm not trying to do anything else.



Do not infer things, do not assume things. Half of the disagreements people have with me is over their inability to just take what I write at face value without "interpreting" that if I say something, I must also be saying this other, closely related thing.
Again not a mind reader. I'm not trying to infer anything from your posts, except through basic reading comphrension but what ever words you use, they're not going to mean exactly the same thing to everyone who reads them. Language is impressive in and of itself.



I said that his high image of himself, as in how intelligent he is. I never said he was never wrong. Of course, you could argue that part of Rodney's image of himself that he is never ever wrong but I've never seen or heard anything to indicate that.

He just thinks that him being wrong is highly unlikely. There was Doronda, after all.

I think we're splitting hairs of semantics here but McKay likes to think of himself as perfect. He's is obviously not.

Arrogance is never justified. Hence the Defination: (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/arrogant?view=uk) having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 02:09 PM
I'm sorry. I said you said that. Where? It was not disagreeing with you on this point. Simply adding an addendum.
Why even bring it up? I never said it was unrealistic. I don't think anyone's said that. Why argue against something no one's arguing?

And why tack it onto the same sentence in which you specifically reference what I've said? "The behaviour you describe is still not unrealistic". It's a perfectly valid interpretation that by this, you mean that I think it's unrealistic.


You can love someone and still acknowledge they have flaws. You can still love them unconditionally and want to help them better themselves. There's no evidence Keller's going to dump him if he doesn't improve for example.
They barely know each other. This was their first date. We haven't seen them interact outside of work emergencies much either. They barely know anything about each other.

How could they both be deeply in love with each other, yet one side wanting to change the other when they don't even really know much about each other? Also, who says the changes Jennifer wants are all for the better? It's working perfectly well for Rodney. Why should he change just so the world doesn't view him in a way she dislikes? I think it's more of a selfish wish to have a boyfriend the world likes more.


Again not a mind reader. I'm not trying to infer anything from your posts, except through basic reading comphrension but what ever words you use, they're not going to mean exactly the same thing to everyone who reads them. Language is impressive in and of itself.
Yes, but I use basic English (most of the time). If I say something, assume that's all I'm saying. By not inferring, you won't have to be a mind reader. If something is unclear, ask for a clarification. Don't assume and then refute it.


I think we're splitting hairs of semantics here but McKay likes to think of himself as perfect. He's is obviously not.
No he doesn't. Where has he ever claimed that? In fact, Rodney knows he's flawed. He pretty much said so in this episode. He's not perfect and he knows it.


Arrogance is never justified. Hence the Defination: (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/arrogant?view=uk) having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities
Fine, let's switch words: Self confidence. Rodney's self confidence.

Anon
November 25th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh so many quotes!!!!!!!!!!!! *gasp*

Merlin1701
November 25th, 2008, 02:14 PM
It may suprise you but that what partners do, change each other. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

Rosehawk
November 25th, 2008, 02:35 PM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.
Interesting discussion topic!


Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.
Hummm, I really don't see where Jennifer was actively trying to change Rodney. Nothing that we haven't seen Weir, Sheppard or Carson do on occasion. Rodney has a big ego, sometimes that ego is not appropriate and gets in the way. When that happens Rodney needs someone to keep him focused at the task at hand and that is what it appeared to me that Jennifer felt she was doing with Rodney.


Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.
Jennifer knows all too well what Rodney is all about. She's worked with him and I am pretty sure she knows what she is getting into. I really don't see where she is trying to change him. If he is doing something that embarasses her, is she just suppose to shut up and take it and not say anything? That's not exactly love or healthy for a relationship either. Besides then he is expecting her to change for him.


And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.
I think Rodney is complacent because this is a first date and he is trying to make a good impression. Obviously her opinion is important to him or he wouldn't have listen to her.
No one can change anyone's personality without their permission whether that permission is given verbally or nonverbally.


If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.
That's part of the process of learning about each other. Their relationship is changing. It's not a doctor patient or friend friend thing anymore. It's going to a whole new level of learning about each other.


Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.
Jennifer also comes from a bit of a different background and it is possible that who stole what ideas was not as important to her as it was to Rodney.
It's kind of normal when two people are getting to know each other that their different backgrounds are going to come into the picture. They are not going to see everything exactly the same. It's all apart of learning about each other. As a medical doctor, her success is more measure by whether the patient lives or dies, gets better or sicker; things that in general makes who's getting credit for something seem not a big deal where as as someone in the science community like Rodney who was use to publishing papers as the way to measure success in his world, it would be important.


Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.
Again, I think their different backgrounds comes into play here.

I also think that since this was their first date, Rodney was trying to put on a good first impression which meant he gave in abit.


No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!
Unconditional love does not mean that both people's differences won't come into play in a relationship. Those differences need to be worked and and give and take comes from both sides.

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 02:37 PM
Even if he doesn't, it won't mean he hasn't thought about it, which is what he said. He didn't say he was going to.

A semantic debate. Could he have thought about it, I suppose he could have.

It's worth noting that when Jennifer said that he didn't think about it, his argument for leaving wasn't exactly passionate. perhaps we can infer from that that perhaps he thought about it and didn't seriously consider the option of leaving.

In the absence of hard evidence fans are forced to make suppositions and jump to conclusions about the characters that they watch. those suppositions and conclusions are naturally subjective.

I choose to believe that the Rodney I have come to know wouldn't seriously consider leaving Atlantis. At least, not unless a very good reason came about, like all his team dying and his love leaving.



Rodney wrote the paper Tunney stole his theory from. Rodney also came up with the plan which eventually saved everybody. Rodney thought it was preposterous he received zero credit for it (I agree).

Jennifer thought it was strange for him to want credit for it.

Why do we presume to know what she was thinking? I could easily suggest that she thought that Rodney's work is classified and what's the point of bellyaching over taking credit for something that no one can know because your work is classified.



What would have happened if he had managed to convince them not to turn it on? For one thing, no structural damage and no people getting hurt.

Rodney was trying to stop a catastrophe.

Rodney said himself that his peers considered him to be a burned out recluse, and Bill Nye and the other guy (I'm too lazy to go and find his name) made a big deal out of ridiculing Rodney over his apparent overzealous willingness to take credit for works and ideas that may or may not have actually been his.

Do you honestly believe that had Rodney been able to continue his rant in the theater that anyone would believe him?



Jennifer was kidnapped for most of "Tracker". She wouldn't know exactly what Rodney and Ronon did.

one would presume that she heard about it all afterward, PLUS it was Rodney and Ronon who came after her.


Jennifer was also trapped in her own body in "The Seed" and, hey, wasn't it Ronon and John who went out to save the day in that one?

And I'm fairly certain that it was Rodney who donned a quarantine suit and went into her room and tried to reassure her that she would okay.


Rodney barely contributed since he was in quarantine.

A little reassurance can go a long way when you're scared to death that you're going to die.

Crazedwraith
November 25th, 2008, 02:48 PM
Why even bring it up? I never said it was unrealistic. I don't think anyone's said that. Why argue against something no one's arguing?

And why tack it onto the same sentence in which you specifically reference what I've said? "The behaviour you describe is still not unrealistic". It's a perfectly valid interpretation that by this, you mean that I think it's unrealistic.
Aright, I think you have me here. My apologies; I did initially present the realism aspect as opposed to your original statements. You stated that Keller was trying to change Rodney and presented this is a negative light.
I did take the assumption that this negativity was because you felt unrealistic in two people who were supposed to be love to behaviour like this. Perhaps you instead were just outlining why you dislike Keller's character?

I will concede that perhaps I'm inferring more from you posts than I realised. I shall try and refrain from it in the future.



They barely know each other. This was their first date. We haven't seen them interact outside of work emergencies much either. They barely know anything about each other.
There's alot more that happens at Atlantis off screen and on. We haven't seen them interact outside emergencies because we don't see what happens outside emergencies very often.



How could they both be deeply in love with each other, yet one side wanting to change the other when they don't even really know much about each other? Also, who says the changes Jennifer wants are all for the better? It's working perfectly well for Rodney. Why should he change just so the world doesn't view him in a way she dislikes? I think it's more of a selfish wish to have a boyfriend the world likes more.

This is perfectly true. Why can't Keller's character be a bit selfish? Character flaws are good. Nobody should be perfect.



No he doesn't. Where has he ever claimed that? In fact, Rodney knows he's flawed. He pretty much said so in this episode. He's not perfect and he knows it.

Pick an Episode. Any Episode He's never used those exact words but its always what he means. 'Always right' as come up an number of times.



Fine, let's switch words: Self confidence. Rodney's self confidence.
No, you had it right, the first time. Rodney isn't self confident. He is arrogant., to cover up for his insecurities. He's says it himself in Tao. Look at any time any woman shows interest in him. (Keller in this and in Trio, and that girl who he thought thought he was hot in Tao of Rodney)

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Hummm, I really don't see where Jennifer was actively trying to change Rodney. Nothing that we haven't seen Weir, Sheppard or Carson do on occasion.
Not to the same extent as Jennifer.


Rodney has a big ego, sometimes that ego is not appropriate and gets in the way. When that happens Rodney needs someone to keep him focused at the task at hand and that is what it appeared to me that Jennifer felt she was doing with Rodney.
What exactly was so wrong with Rodney trying to warn people? If they didn't heed his warning, big diff. If they did, whoopie. Nevertheless, she tried to stop him.


Jennifer knows all too well what Rodney is all about. She's worked with him and I am pretty sure she knows what she is getting into.
They work in the same city. They don't work together. She's a medical doctor and he's a scientist. Outside of senior officer briefings and medical emergencies, their work doesn't bring them together much.


I really don't see where she is trying to change him. If he is doing something that embarasses her, is she just suppose to shut up and take it and not say anything?
Ah, but there's the rub. It's embarrassing for her. It's not at all about making him a better man. It's just that she doesn't want to be embarrrassed.


That's not exactly love or healthy for a relationship either. Besides then he is expecting her to change for him.
Why would someone smart care what lesser intelligent people think? Big whoop if some people you'll never see again think badly of you or your date.


I think Rodney is complacent because this is a first date and he is trying to make a good impression. Obviously her opinion is important to him or he wouldn't have listen to her.
No one can change anyone's personality without their permission whether that permission is given verbally or nonverbally.
This has nothing to do with my argument.


That's part of the process of learning about each other. Their relationship is changing. It's not a doctor patient or friend friend thing anymore. It's going to a whole new level of learning about each other.
They're supposed to know each other well enough to have both been in love with each other for a very long time.


Unconditional love does not mean that both people's differences won't come into play in a relationship. Those differences need to be worked and and give and take comes from both sides.
Unconditional love means not wanting to change someone's personality just because it's embarrassing for you.


A semantic debate. Could he have thought about it, I suppose he could have.
It's what Rodney said. He said he'd thought about quitting. Jennifer said he was lying. I think he wasn't lying at all.

It's not semantics at all. Rodney merely said he'd thought about it. Thinking about something and planning on doing it are entirely different things.


I choose to believe that the Rodney I have come to know wouldn't seriously consider leaving Atlantis. At least, not unless a very good reason came about, like all his team dying and his love leaving.
He never used the word "seriously" and neither did I. He had thought about it, possibly in passing.


Why do we presume to know what she was thinking? I could easily suggest that she thought that Rodney's work is classified and what's the point of bellyaching over taking credit for something that no one can know because your work is classified.
She thought it strange he wanted credit for coming up with the brilliant plan (and how to do it) to save the day. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially when for years, his peers had looked down on him.


Rodney said himself that his peers considered him to be a burned out recluse, and Bill Nye and the other guy (I'm too lazy to go and find his name) made a big deal out of ridiculing Rodney over his apparent overzealous willingness to take credit for works and ideas that may or may not have actually been his.
Yes, and what better way to shut them up than to tell people how brilliant Rodney was and how he just saved their behinds?


Do you honestly believe that had Rodney been able to continue his rant in the theater that anyone would believe him?
Did I say that?


one would presume that she heard about it all afterward, PLUS it was Rodney and Ronon who came after her.
One would presume they didn't go into detail about exactly what they did when trying to find her. So it's not like she'd know all of the stuff Rodney went through to try and save her.


And I'm fairly certain that it was Rodney who donned a quarantine suit and went into her room and tried to reassure her that she would okay.
But he didn't save the day. I thought that was what you were speaking of.

Happytree_8
November 25th, 2008, 03:46 PM
1- On the whole issue of Jennifer thinking it odd that Rodney wanted credit, I don't think she thought it odd @ all. When she said "does it really matter", she was probably refering to the very valid point of them all being alive. She was legally dead, do you really think she cares who saved what? She's alive, Rodney's alive, everybody in the facility is alive, it doesn't matter who did it.

2- Yes, you can love someone but not like certain qualities about them. That is what helps make love unconditional, loving someone for everything they are, even the things you dont' like. My boyfriend does things I dislike all the time and I let him know I don't like them and try to suggest ways to make it better, but, if he doesn't want to do it, that's his choice, I won't leave him for it and Keller didn't hint in the least that she would with Rodney. Infact, she kissed him and admitted love for him AFTER his outburst during the presentation, the pinnicle of his inability to let things be and deal with it at a more appropriate time.

3- Why is everybody so critical in thinking that she doesn't want to be embarrassed and that's why she tried to get Rodney to be more humble. Maybe she realizes it will take more than a "beautiful woman" to make people think of him differently. She is probably trying to get him to be polite in public so he doesn't embarrass HIMSELF. Love is, afterall, wanting what's best for the other person. He can bash people all he wants in private, but in public, making a scene, that is a diffrent story and disrespectful.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 05:23 PM
3- Why is everybody so critical in thinking that she doesn't want to be embarrassed and that's why she tried to get Rodney to be more humble. Maybe she realizes it will take more than a "beautiful woman" to make people think of him differently. She is probably trying to get him to be polite in public so he doesn't embarrass HIMSELF. Love is, afterall, wanting what's best for the other person. He can bash people all he wants in private, but in public, making a scene, that is a diffrent story and disrespectful.
If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 05:27 PM
If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

That we can agree on.:)

And I think that's how she meant it.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 05:39 PM
That we can agree on.:)

And I think that's how she meant it.
Which one? I gave up two options.

s09119
November 25th, 2008, 05:44 PM
My opinion is that Keller sees the good man Rodney is underneath all his hubris and need to always be right, and just wants to bring it out. He's arrogant and ruse, yes, but we've seen time and again that behind it all is a man that truly cares for others (consider his passionate defense of Elizabeth in "The Storm"). I don't think it's that Jennifer is embarrassed of him or anything, as she's never done any of the typical things such as inching away when he's acting up, trying to distance herself from him, etc. She really does care about him, and wants to try and help him be a better person.

And before anyone yells, "That's changing him!!!!!^@2352q3651325111!!," I would ask you to think of things like addiction interventions. Yes, the aim is to change the person, but the desired outcome would be better for the person and his/her friends and family. So Keller may be trying to change McKay, yes, but it would certainly be a change for the better.

Rosehawk
November 25th, 2008, 06:20 PM
Not to the same extent as Jennifer.
Maybe not but none of them wanted to go out with Rodney either.


What exactly was so wrong with Rodney trying to warn people? If they didn't heed his warning, big diff. If they did, whoopie. Nevertheless, she tried to stop him.
Never said there was anything wrong in trying to warn people. However it had already been setup earlier that when Rodney was working with these guys, that he always said that their ideas were something he was working on, that premise was set when the scientists were talking in front of Keller, so when McKay gets up to take to warn people it seems as if he is trying to take credit for Tuney's work and so the warning that McKay was trying to communicate wasn't being heard. Why shouldn't she feel uncomfortable and want to stop him. He didn't listen, he still did what he felt ws right and he did look like a fool until he was vindicated at the end of the show.


They work in the same city. They don't work together. She's a medical doctor and he's a scientist. Outside of senior officer briefings and medical emergencies, their work doesn't bring them together much.
They have been on a few missions together (Trio for one) and we really don't know how much time they interact outside of work. His hypocondriac behavior would have him heading to the infirmary alot - Keller did refer to him once as 'her favorite patient' so they have had enough contact with each other that Keller knows what Rodney is all about.


Ah, but there's the rub. It's embarrassing for her. It's not at all about making him a better man. It's just that she doesn't want to be embarrrassed.
And what is wrong with not wanting to be embarrassed?? If she thought what Rodney was saying was out of line or wrong, why wouldn't she want to stop him from a perception that he was going to make a fool of himself.


Why would someone smart care what lesser intelligent people think? Big whoop if some people you'll never see again think badly of you or your date.
Well, some people do care regardless of someone's intelligence.


This has nothing to do with my argument.
It has everything to do with your argument. You stated that Jennifer was trying to change Rodney. I was simply stating that Rodney wasn't changing so much as he was trying to put on a good impression as most people try to do on a first date.


They're supposed to know each other well enough to have both been in love with each other for a very long time.
So what's the point,? That they know each other well enough that they've been in love for a very long time and that they aren't suppose to say something to someone if it bothers them?
People in love are going to do things that irrate the other person, doesn't change the fact that they still love each other.


Unconditional love means not wanting to change someone's personality just because it's embarrassing for you.
Unconditional love means accepting someone just the way they are. It doesn't mean that if they do something that bothers you that you don't have the right to say something. Unconditional love goes both ways.

Dwparsnip
November 25th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Which one? I gave up two options.

Sorry.


If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

I agree with this in its entirety.

When I said I think that's how she meant it, I meant option two: she did it to help him to be a better person.

Rosehawk
November 25th, 2008, 06:31 PM
If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

Ahhh, now I understand the point you were trying to make a bit earlier!

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2008, 07:52 PM
So when McKay gets up to take to warn people it seems as if he is trying to take credit for Tuney's work and so the warning that McKay was trying to communicate wasn't being heard.
But you see, Jennifer tried to stop him before he uttered a word. She didn't hear what sounded like Rodney trying to take credit and then try to stop him, she tried to stop him altogether.


They have been on a few missions together (Trio for one) and we really don't know how much time they interact outside of work. His hypocondriac behavior would have him heading to the infirmary alot - Keller did refer to him once as 'her favorite patient' so they have had enough contact with each other that Keller knows what Rodney is all about.
According to John, Rodney hadn't made a move 'til "Brain Storm". So unless he was randomly hanging around her, not so much. Also, from what we've seen on screen, they almost never spend any time together outside of medical emergencies and those very, very select few missions.

I don't make a habit of assuming a ton of stuff.


And what is wrong with not wanting to be embarrassed?? If she thought what Rodney was saying was out of line or wrong, why wouldn't she want to stop him from a perception that he was going to make a fool of himself.
The point is that if she is just trying to change him so that he won't embarrass her, then it's a selfish endeavor. She just wants to look better.


It has everything to do with your argument. You stated that Jennifer was trying to change Rodney. I was simply stating that Rodney wasn't changing so much as he was trying to put on a good impression as most people try to do on a first date.
Exactly where in the phrase "Jennifer is trying to change Rondney" am I losing you? I doesn't matter if Rodney was just playing along to make a good first impression.

The key point is that Jennifer wants and tries to change Rodney. Whether or not he's willing to or does is irrelevant. That's not what this thread is about.

You are strawmanning.


So what's the point,? That they know each other well enough that they've been in love for a very long time and that they aren't suppose to say something to someone if it bothers them?
People in love are going to do things that irrate the other person, doesn't change the fact that they still love each other.
Yet they know almost nothing about each other, neither had made a move 'til "Brain Storm", they almost never spend any time together from what we can see and Jennifer wants to change Rodney in oh so many ways.

True love alright.


Unconditional love means accepting someone just the way they are. It doesn't mean that if they do something that bothers you that you don't have the right to say something. Unconditional love goes both ways.
Jennifer wants to change large parts of Rodney's personality. That's not unconditional love. Whether or not Rodney is willing to change for Jennifer has nothing to do with whether he loves her unconditionally or not.

Rosehawk
November 26th, 2008, 02:23 PM
But you see, Jennifer tried to stop him before he uttered a word. She didn't hear what sounded like Rodney trying to take credit and then try to stop him, she tried to stop him altogether.
Because she has been around Rodney enough to know exactly what he is going to do. You don't have to spend tons of time with Rodney to know how he is mostly likely going to behave in a scientific situation.


According to John, Rodney hadn't made a move 'til "Brain Storm". So unless he was randomly hanging around her, not so much. Also, from what we've seen on screen, they almost never spend any time together outside of medical emergencies and those very, very select few missions.

I don't make a habit of assuming a ton of stuff.
He didn't make a move, didn't mean he didn't have feelings for her. We really don't know how much time they have spent together and the little time they have spent onscreen together is enough to develop a mutal interest in each other.



The point is that if she is just trying to change him so that he won't embarrass her, then it's a selfish endeavor. She just wants to look better.
Or she just doesn't want to bring unwanted attention to her or to Rodney which is not the same thing as wanting to look better.


Exactly where in the phrase "Jennifer is trying to change Rondney" am I losing you? I doesn't matter if Rodney was just playing along to make a good first impression.
You are not losing me, however you are not willing to let a conversation develop so if your whole point is just to say that Jennifer is trying to change Rodney and not allow for any further developing conversation or viewpoints then I guess you lose me because this conversation can't grow.
If Rodney is trying to make a good first impression then the perception that he is giving in to Jennifer because it appears that she is trying to change him is totally relevant to the discussion as it gives an explanation for his behavior of appearing to give in on this occasion to Jennifers concerns.


The key point is that Jennifer wants and tries to change Rodney. Whether or not he's willing to or does is irrelevant.
And since I am not convinced that she is trying to change Rodney, I wanted to enjoy what seemed like an interesting topic of discussion......


That's not what this thread is about.
Apparently.


You are strawmanning.
Don't think so.


Yet they know almost nothing about each other, neither had made a move 'til "Brain Storm", they almost never spend any time together from what we can see and Jennifer wants to change Rodney in oh so many ways.

True love alright.
I still don't see how after one date the statement can be made that Jennifer wants to change Rodney.



Jennifer wants to change large parts of Rodney's personality. That's not unconditional love. Whether or not Rodney is willing to change for Jennifer has nothing to do with whether he loves her unconditionally or not.
I don't see how on one date that it can be said that Jennifer wants to change large parts of Rodney's personality.

ponycake
November 26th, 2008, 04:40 PM
Well, Jennifer doesn't want to change Rodney because neither of them exist or have motivations of their own. ;)

So the questions are do TPTB want to change the characterization of Rodney. He's a pretty popular character so I don't know if they'd want to jeopardise one of their fan favourites, but then again maybe they think a 'kinder, gentler' McKay is a direction they want to go in as part of their overall plan?

I think happy in love, socially adjusted and desnarked McKay would certainly be a lot less interesting as a tv character, but considering there's only four episodes left it's really a moot point. The characters bit the dust either way.

Major_Griff
November 26th, 2008, 04:43 PM
That's what broads do.

Erised
November 26th, 2008, 04:45 PM
i agree keller's just plain wrong - it's up to the woman to adapt to the man, not the other way around







http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/topicalacon.gif

wtf?

jelgate
November 26th, 2008, 04:47 PM
wtf?Its called sterotypes;)

DragonLadyK
November 26th, 2008, 07:19 PM
Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney.

FallenAngel, where have you been this whole season?

Let's review this little tidbit from "The Shrine" (transcript credit Gatenoise):

KELLER: Well, maybe, but not necessarily. It was too small to show up on a scan at the time; but in the Pegasus galaxy the condition is fairly common among the very old.

<<snip for length>>

JEANIE: I have to ask you: why did you tell me you didn’t recognise the symptoms in time?
KELLER: Because he was already showing the symptoms when he came back from the mission and ... I didn’t see it.

KELLER: If I wasn’t so taken by the new Rodney McKay, the parasite might have been small enough for me to operate without causing significant brain trauma. By the time he started to forget, it was too late. (She turns to Jeanie.) I haven’t given up on trying to find a treatment.

Keller has preferred the "kindler, gentler Rodney McKay" since "The Shrine" and apparently didn't notice he was faking to impresse her in "Tracker."

As far as one-true-loves go, TPTB haven't done the best job of selling this one as anything other than a mistake.

DragonLady

Rosehawk
November 27th, 2008, 07:20 AM
wtf?

He's kidding.

[email protected] are you trying to create mischief again? :P

silvercomet
November 27th, 2008, 12:42 PM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

*snip the text because of the length*

I second every word. Apparently I've already greened you. So here's the mental green. ;)

I thought all this while I was watching the episode.




It's not changing him, it's bringing his better self on.What is wrong with that? People that love you are usually the ones that are hurting you, by pointing out your mistakes and your flaws.

And what was the mistake? IMO in this episode he was right with everything he said. No Mistake.


I'm in full agreement that if she truly loves him than she should love him warts and all, but that doesn't mean that if she sees Rodney do something wrong or treat a person badly she shouldn't point it out or try to help him temper whatever bad habits he has.

Love is supposed to better a person. I think Jennifer was just trying to help him, not transform him into Prince Charming.

IMO if she had wanted to help him, she would have calmed him down but would have supported him in front of the others. Because he was right with the things he said. Just his tone of voice wasn't always right.


This would be credible in my eyes if she hadn't rolled her eyes, looked uncomfortable and disapproving and all that all throughout the episode.

I interpreted it as her disapproving of his behavior and wanting to change him to suit how she wants him to be. After all, he was right all along. Everything he said was the truth. If people don't want to believe him, that's their loss.

Again, I agree. Most of the time she was just embarrassed. I had the feeling she was worried about what the people might think about her, because she was the one who came with Rodney.


Is it not conceivable that the most intelligent man in two galaxies strives to be a better person? And if so, isn't it equally conceivable (and evident) that he doesn't know how to achieve that? I've said that this relationship would work because Jenn wouldn't take Rodney's crap and appears to be able to lead rather than follow in a relationship, which is what Rodney needs and why Rodney and Katie failed, as Katie was more timid than looked to Rodney to lead.

I don't believe that adults need to be led. :( And again, what means 'a better person'? To put up with everything other people do (i.e. stealing ideas)? Not saying the truth (i.e. it's dangerous)? No, that's exactly why I love the McKay character so much. He is arrogant - o.k. But he is completely honest. And I would always choose to have such people around me instead of people like Keller.


Also, doesn't change the fact that she tried to change him in the first place. "I've loved you for a very long time" my behind. She loves the man she wants him to be.


But this part of his personality isn't causing a rift in their relationship. She just doesn't want to be seen in public with a man who acts the way Rodney acts because she feels it's a bad way to act. In other words, she dislikes the world seeing her with Rodney the way he is and is trying to change him for that, not because the way Rodney is is in any way detrimental to their fundamental interpersonal relationship.

Only... this episode reveals that's a lie. She doesn't love him for who he is at all. She wants to change many fundamental aspects of his personality. She loves the man she believes she can transform him into.

Now, it's not fundamentally wrong to want to change your loved one for the better. But wanting to change him to that extent? That's not loving him unconditionally. It's not even loving him. It's loving your dream image of him.

It may be boring, but: I agree. :D


People can love someone and want to change them still. People have loved others for their good points or for the potential that they show for being the best they can be. Keller wanting Rodney to change doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she wants the best for him and wants him to be the best he can be.

And Keller knows what the best is, because? :S


I don't hink it's not that she didn't want him to take credit for his work, but more the method and the arena in which he was trying to do it. What did standing up and speaking about it in his usual Rodney-esque way accomplish? Nothing, other than alienate those who he was trying to warn and invite ridicule upon himself. It may have been the time to speak, but it wasn't the way.

But she didn't try to chance the way he spoke. She didn't want him to speak at all.


Hummm, I really don't see where Jennifer was actively trying to change Rodney. Nothing that we haven't seen Weir, Sheppard or Carson do on occasion. Rodney has a big ego, sometimes that ego is not appropriate and gets in the way. When that happens Rodney needs someone to keep him focused at the task at hand and that is what it appeared to me that Jennifer felt she was doing with Rodney.


Jennifer knows all too well what Rodney is all about. She's worked with him and I am pretty sure she knows what she is getting into. I really don't see where she is trying to change him. If he is doing something that embarasses her, is she just suppose to shut up and take it and not say anything? That's not exactly love or healthy for a relationship either. Besides then he is expecting her to change for him.

Jennifer also comes from a bit of a different background and it is possible that who stole what ideas was not as important to her as it was to Rodney.
It's kind of normal when two people are getting to know each other that their different backgrounds are going to come into the picture. They are not going to see everything exactly the same. It's all apart of learning about each other. As a medical doctor, her success is more measure by whether the patient lives or dies, gets better or sicker; things that in general makes who's getting credit for something seem not a big deal where as as someone in the science community like Rodney who was use to publishing papers as the way to measure success in his world, it would be important.

Hm, I've never seen that the others were embarrassed because of Rodney's behaviour to such an extent like Keller was.

IMO when I love a person I understand that things are important to him even when I don't care about them at all. For example when my partner plays sport games I understand that he is disappointed when he lose, even when I'm not interested in sport or winning at all. I just know it's a big deal for him. And if Keller really don't know that fact about Rodney, then she really isn't the right person for him.


Why do we presume to know what she was thinking? I could easily suggest that she thought that Rodney's work is classified and what's the point of bellyaching over taking credit for something that no one can know because your work is classified.

Do you honestly believe that had Rodney been able to continue his rant in the theater that anyone would believe him?

He could have said that the reason he hasn't published his work is because it's classified. And Keller could have confirm that.

I believe the people would have thought about what Rodney said in the theater when Keller would have supported him in front of the other people. While she confirmed what he was saying was the truth.


I've never seen a relationship on TV which was so badly written like this one. :( But that's just my opinion. I respect that other people have another opinion about the way a relationship works and what love means.

silvercomet
November 27th, 2008, 01:06 PM
Sorry for the double post, apparently I didn't read everything. :o


Never said there was anything wrong in trying to warn people. However it had already been setup earlier that when Rodney was working with these guys, that he always said that their ideas were something he was working on, that premise was set when the scientists were talking in front of Keller, so when McKay gets up to take to warn people it seems as if he is trying to take credit for Tuney's work and so the warning that McKay was trying to communicate wasn't being heard. Why shouldn't she feel uncomfortable and want to stop him. He didn't listen, he still did what he felt ws right and he did look like a fool until he was vindicated at the end of the show.

And what is wrong with not wanting to be embarrassed?? If she thought what Rodney was saying was out of line or wrong, why wouldn't she want to stop him from a perception that he was going to make a fool of himself.

Why was she so willingly believing that Rodney wasn't right when he said he was working on the ideas before the others did? He is a genius, isn't he? He has proved that many times. And why should she feel uncomfortable? She works in Atlantis for how long? Shouldn't she know that Rodney knows exactly what he says when it comes to astrophysics? Has she really never heard about the incident with the double Rodneys? Isn't that something people would mention now and then in Atlantis? Why believing strangers instead of a person she knows (and pretends to love for a longer time)?

I'm still not convinced that there is love between these two. Maybe another feeling. Just one word: plane. :p;)

knowles2
November 27th, 2008, 01:54 PM
People can love someone and want to change them still. People have loved others for their good points or for the potential that they show for being the best they can be. Keller wanting Rodney to change doesn't mean she doesn't love him. It means she wants the best for him and wants him to be the best he can be.

Having said that, relationships with people who want you to change them, or in when you want them to change, don't always work out. This is coming from personal experience here unfortunately. Rodney will probably soon get sick of Keller going on at him if she continues on as she has done. Accepting him for who he is would be easier for her and him, but she can still subtly help him change.

No they do not unless the person who trying to do change willing to be gentle and takes their time and the person they trying change to actually change. These are either weakness or strongest of relationships from my experience and it fifty which ways it goes.


It may suprise you but that what partners do, change each other. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.
And that what true relationships is about.


My opinion is that Keller sees the good man Rodney is underneath all his hubris and need to always be right, and just wants to bring it out. He's arrogant and ruse, yes, but we've seen time and again that behind it all is a man that truly cares for others (consider his passionate defense of Elizabeth in "The Storm"). I don't think it's that Jennifer is embarrassed of him or anything, as she's never done any of the typical things such as inching away when he's acting up, trying to distance herself from him, etc. She really does care about him, and wants to try and help him be a better person.

And before anyone yells, "That's changing him!!!!!^@2352q3651325111!!," I would ask you to think of things like addiction interventions. Yes, the aim is to change the person, but the desired outcome would be better for the person and his/her friends and family. So Keller may be trying to change McKay, yes, but it would certainly be a change for the better.


Completely agree with the above.


FallenAngel, where have you been this whole season?

Let's review this little tidbit from "The Shrine" (transcript credit Gatenoise):

KELLER: Well, maybe, but not necessarily. It was too small to show up on a scan at the time; but in the Pegasus galaxy the condition is fairly common among the very old.

<<snip for length>>

JEANIE: I have to ask you: why did you tell me you didn’t recognise the symptoms in time?
KELLER: Because he was already showing the symptoms when he came back from the mission and ... I didn’t see it.

KELLER: If I wasn’t so taken by the new Rodney McKay, the parasite might have been small enough for me to operate without causing significant brain trauma. By the time he started to forget, it was too late. (She turns to Jeanie.) I haven’t given up on trying to find a treatment.

Keller has preferred the "kindler, gentler Rodney McKay" since "The Shrine" and apparently didn't notice he was faking to impresse her in "Tracker."

As far as one-true-loves go, TPTB haven't done the best job of selling this one as anything other than a mistake.

DragonLady


To me that episode showed what Rodney could and is like when he does not have his intellect, and that he most likely uses his intellect as defensive mechanism to defend him self. When you take that away you get the kind, sincere Rodney I think she just trying to bring that out in public instead of just hiding it. To me what she doing is no difference to what you do to treat drug addict who uses drugs a defensive mechanism.

SoulReaver
November 27th, 2008, 02:18 PM
wtf?you don't agree ? :(


[email protected] are you trying to create mischief again? :PI've no idea what you're talking about http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/ange.gif

fumblesmcstupid
November 27th, 2008, 02:25 PM
I see that some of you have a real low opinion of Rodney McKay!

He needs to be nice, he needs to be lead, he is a drug addict who needs to go to rehab!!

WTF???

I have no IDEA if the people who think that what she is trying to do to Rodney to fit into her little mold of who SHE wants him to be, have even WATCHED Atlantis.

I think Rodney is a great person who has his own quirks on how to be with people.

I think that his TRUE REAL friends Will NEVER try to change him, will never tell him to behave or treat him like a child or berate him.

I see her doing her DAMNDEST to emasculate him!

Rodney is such a strong, vibrant being and it makes me sad to see the writers putting him with this busybody immature child!

I just see her draining his soul away!

Crazedwraith
November 27th, 2008, 02:38 PM
fumblesmcstupid, its may be one of his defining traits but why exactly do you think that being an arrogant abrasive jerk is a good thing for Rodney to be?



As for the quotes from "The Shrine" I thought Rodney's intial behaviour was supposed to be him coming more child like, meaning that he was more 'innocent' and lacks the ordinary MacKay's defensive walls. Which is why is was able to converse and even flirt with Keller with out worrying about it. Hopefully that is a McKay that emerges when he becomes more comfortable with people. (Although granted we haven't seen much evidence for it in the show)

DragonLadyK
November 27th, 2008, 02:56 PM
To me that episode showed what Rodney could and is like when he does not have his intellect, and that he most likely uses his intellect as defensive mechanism to defend him self. When you take that away you get the kind, sincere Rodney I think she just trying to bring that out in public instead of just hiding it. To me what she doing is no difference to what you do to treat drug addict who uses drugs a defensive mechanism.

Let me point out the main thrust of Keller's confession: she did not notice McKay was ill and not acting at all like himself because she liked the new version so much better. To put that in an episode and then follow it up with the nagging, scolding asperity in "Brain Storm" -- people are not crazy for thinking that Keller wants to change Rodney.

The other issue here is that McKay had a beef: he's saved these people's lives at least three times now and they can never know about it, he's made discoveries that make their science look like the abacus and he's forbidden to publish. He had a right to feel insecure and unappreciated.

Secondly, in "Trio" Sam never took issue with Rodney claiming Tyson stole his work, she just said she didn't want to hear about it. For Sam that is a huge distinction -- there is a chance that Tyson did steal Rodney's idea. "Boy who cried wolf" aside, Sam seems to partially side with McKay and Keller was there to see it.

Even ignoring the possibility that McKay really did think of whatever it was first and just sticking with the fact his peers think he's a loser when he's smarter than all of them put together, Keller had a problem with McKay's attitude, not his behavior. Keller said in the plane that "most people would be having a good time" and therefore so should McKay, and then after Nye and Tyson's unpleasantness she said "it's called being humble. You've heard that word before, humble?" In both cases she trivialized McKay's feelings (namely, his insecurity and sense of unfairness), not his behavior.

Here are some other things that could have been said on the plane other than "most people would be having a good time" (so therefore how you're feeling is invalid):

"Aw, come on, Rawdnee, let it go. You've saved the galaxy eight hundred times by now and anyone who is anyone knows it." (Sheppard)

"Bah. They are nobodies still lost in the 19th century, thinking the Earth is the only planet with life and the pyramids are merely tombs of dead kings." (Zelenka)

"Surely the lives you have saved and the hope you have brought the people of Pegasus is worth far more than any reward or paper, Rodney." (Teyla)

"Tunny's dumb. Ignore him." (Ronon)

All of those get Rodney to stop whining, but unlike Keller's "solution," they deal with the issue behind the complaints in a supportive way instead of telling Rodney he shouldn't feel guilty for his feelings.

Let's contrast Keller's behavior with another golden girl: Sam. Sam did not have to stick up for Rodney to Ellis. Rodney had already left the room and Ellis did have a point. Rodney's treatment of Sam has been far from stellar, so Sam could have felt vindicated by Ellis's belittling. But did Sam just stand there and smile? Nope. Sam, in a moment that brought to a close four years of hatred on my part, told Ellis that if he ever spoke to anyone under her command like that again he wouldn't be welcome on the base -- all that, just out of loyalty to her subordinates.

Keller doesn't even have that much loyalty for McKay, and he's supposedly her love.

And for those who say she shouldn't have stood up for McKay because he's a man, I asked my All Things Czech and Male expert, Pajus, and he said that Keller sticking up for McKay wouldn't have been offensive. Even if McKay had been offended, it would have still established that Keller is fond of and loyal to McKay as he is.

DragonLady

Rosehawk
November 27th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Again, I agree. Most of the time she was just embarrassed. I had the feeling she was worried about what the people might think about her, because she was the one who came with Rodney.
Interesting, I didn't get that sense at all. If she really was worried about what people would think about her showing up with Rodney, I doubt she would have been so willing to go. She knew she was going to a science conference so she knew she was out of her element a bit....if anything I see her as being uncomfortable with the situation (embarassed) because she didn't understand what was going on and reacted more to that then to what Rodney was doing.


Hm, I've never seen that the others were embarrassed because of Rodney's behaviour to such an extent like Keller was.
Maybe not, but the others weren't thinking anything more than a friendship with Rodney. Sometimes deeper feelings for someone can sometimes change ones level of reaction to a situation causing them to over react. ;)


IMO when I love a person I understand that things are important to him even when I don't care about them at all. For example when my partner plays sport games I understand that he is disappointed when he lose, even when I'm not interested in sport or winning at all. I just know it's a big deal for him. And if Keller really don't know that fact about Rodney, then she really isn't the right person for him.
I agree when you love someone you just accept certain things about them, however typically, and I and say typically, that comes when the two have been in a relationship for awhile. When a relationship is in the early stages each person brings into the relationship their own expectations based on their own personal experiences that may or may not mesh well with the other person.

I just don't think that based on one date that it can be said that Jennifer is trying to change McKay...now if the behavior continued.....then yes I would agree, but it is too early in their relationship when they will be finding out more about each other then the co-workers will ever know about them.


Why was she so willingly believing that Rodney wasn't right when he said he was working on the ideas before the others did? He is a genius, isn't he? He has proved that many times. And why should she feel uncomfortable? She works in Atlantis for how long? Shouldn't she know that Rodney knows exactly what he says when it comes to astrophysics? Has she really never heard about the incident with the double Rodneys? Isn't that something people would mention now and then in Atlantis? Why believing strangers instead of a person she knows (and pretends to love for a longer time)?
Why wouldn't she feel uncomfortable? She is in a setting with people that she doesn't know, other than Rodney. We really don't know if she knows that Rodney did the work that Turney took credit for.
I agree that she should have supported Rodney more, however I tend to not be so hard on someone on their first date when the dynamics between the two won't be the same as their working relationship and when they still have alot to learn about each other.


I'm still not convinced that there is love between these two. Maybe another feeling. Just one word: plane.
I agree, I am not convinced it is love just yet between these two. Right now I think it is a strong infatuation that may or may not get more serious.

dasNdanger
November 27th, 2008, 03:18 PM
A mate should be a compliment - someone who brings out the best in the other person. If Keller can do that when no one else could, then I think it's a perfect match. She's doing it gently (albeit all in one episode - not her fault), encouraging him to take it down a notch, and not turn everything into a personal issue.

I've been married 18 years, and I did the same exact thing with my husband. When we first met, he like to boast about himself, and he was rather paranoid about what people thought of him. Over the years, I encouraged him not to boast about himself, but let others praise him instead. Also, I helped him not take himself too seriously - if he made a mistake, laugh it off instead of brooding over it. He was great before, but he's a much better man now - more humble, and not so serious about what people think of him. His personality really blossomed after that, and people just love him. If I hadn't gently encouraged him to change, he would be obnoxious today, like his brother. :D

All too often I hear 'love them for what they are', but sometimes that's not the course of wisdom. When someone has a bad personality trait, it's better to help them overcome it rather than ignore it. Ignoring it is condoning it, same way we might condone someone's drug or alcohol use by ignoring it. If you really love a person, you want to help them grow, and I think Keller is the first person who can help Rodney do this.

When you hear someone say of a couple, "She has been so good for him" (or visa versa), THIS is what they're talking about. The right person can bring out the best in a person, and sometimes they do this by helping the other person open their own eyes, and see where they need to make improvement. This is how I see Keller at the moment, as that person who can help Rodney finally see himself as others see him, and - perhaps - inspire change, or more specifically, character growth.

On the other hand, when someone says, 'She brings out the worst in him' (or visa versa), it usually means that the person is just reinforcing bad habits. In Rodney's case, it would be a woman who stood behind him, whispering in his ear, 'Tell them how great you are! You are better than them and you know it!' Now - that is basically how Rodney perceives himself - that would be accepting Rodney for what he is. But would you want Keller to be doing that...to be encouraging - in either word or in silent acceptance - Rodney's arrogant behavior?

I really don't think so. I really think you'd all much rather see a woman who brings out the best in Rodney, and I think - if written properly - Keller can do this.

das

RealmOfX
November 27th, 2008, 03:30 PM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.

And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.

If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.

Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.

Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.

No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

Oh come off it!! Bad behaviour is bad behaviour! Rodney deserved to get called on his bad behaviour, stop trying to make excuses for him.

Dwparsnip
November 27th, 2008, 03:36 PM
I don't believe that adults need to be led. :( And again, what means 'a better person'? To put up with everything other people do (i.e. stealing ideas)? Not saying the truth (i.e. it's dangerous)? No, that's exactly why I love the McKay character so much. He is arrogant - o.k. But he is completely honest. And I would always choose to have such people around me instead of people like Keller.

Adults don't need to be lead as a rule, but I think we can all agree that Rodney is the exception to just about every rule there is. I don't think Rodney needs to be led in a general sense. He certainly doesn't need to be led where science is concerned. but when it comes to relationships he doesn't have a clue, and there's plenty of evidence to support that. (His infatuation with Sam and disastrous relationship with Katie come to mind.) If Rodney wants to be in a relationship, and why wouldn't he, I would think he'd want some help to figure out what to do, and like the brilliant scientist that he is he would learn from them.

Which brings me to your next point. Doesn't everyone try to be a better person than they were yesterday, or are today? I try everyday to be a better father to my daughters than I was, and I try everyday to be a better husband to my wife, I try to be a better friend to my friends, and I try to be a better fanfic writer each time I write something, and all that together means I try to be a better person, for I know that I'm not perfect. (Though I won't admit that to my wife.) Is there a perfect person out there? Is Rodney perfect?

And it doesn't necessarily mean that being a better person in some areas means that Rodney has to lose the traits that we know him for. I know it seems that way, but it doesn't. It may actually help those traits in some ways. For example, if Rodney wasn't always an arrogant ass as he sometimes can be, people may be more prone to listening to him and accepting his help, advice and whatever.


But she didn't try to chance the way he spoke. She didn't want him to speak at all.
He didn't listen to her as it was, I don't think he would have listened if she asked to to do it differently right then and there. I may be wrong.


He could have said that the reason he hasn't published his work is because it's classified. And Keller could have confirm that.

I believe the people would have thought about what Rodney said in the theater when Keller would have supported him in front of the other people. While she confirmed what he was saying was the truth.

With all due respect, and it's considerable as you're making your points very well I think, I disagree. These people barely tolerate Rodney, and consider him washed out and a recluse and so on...why would they be inclined to listen to someone they don't know at all like Jennifer? She could hardly confirm anything with any substance.

And again, Rodney believes they think he's a nutcase, essentially. he would have to know that playing the "My work is classified" card would be ridiculed by the peers that thinks he's a nut in the first place.

Truthfully, I would have loved to see Jennifer be a little more supportive, but it is what it is and I can understand it.


I've never seen a relationship on TV which was so badly written like this one. :( But that's just my opinion. I respect that other people have another opinion about the way a relationship works and what love means.

I have, but as you say I respect others' opinions as well. Love do mean different things to different people. I've loved two women in my life, and I loved each of them differently, because they were different and touched and affected me in different ways and to varying degrees. I know that might sound bad, but I think it's fair to say that anyone who has loved more than one person in their lives are in the same boat.

The same could be true for Rodney.

I hope all that made at least some sense.

DragonLadyK
November 27th, 2008, 03:40 PM
A mate should be a compliment - someone who brings out the best in the other person. If Keller can do that when no one else could, then I think it's a perfect match. She's doing it gently (albeit all in one episode - not her fault), encouraging him to take it down a notch, and not turn everything into a personal issue.

I've been married 18 years, and I did the same exact thing with my husband. When we first met, he like to boast about himself, and he was rather paranoid about what people thought of him. Over the years, I encouraged him not to boast about himself, but let others praise him instead. Also, I helped him not take himself too seriously - if he made a mistake, laugh it off instead of brooding over it. He was great before, but he's a much better man now - more humble, and not so serious about what people think of him. His personality really blossomed after that, and people just love him. If I hadn't gently encouraged him to change, he would be obnoxious today, like his brother. :D

What it if hadn't workd and he'd stayed the same, even resented you for trying to change him? Would your union have been a happy one?

Dating or marrying someone with the intent to change them is never a good idea because the chances of failure and garnered resentment are too great. Secondly, Keller's methods at no point addressed the genuine beef Rodney had: that no one in that room knew how smart he was because he hadn't published a paper since joining the SGC, and that they felt justified in treating him like a nobody when they literally owed their lives to him thrice over. If it wasn't for Rodney they would all have been Wraith food by now and he is not allowed to tell them that. She scolded and shamed him for wanting credit in the eyes of his peers, something as a doctor she said she understood.

DragonLady

fumblesmcstupid
November 27th, 2008, 03:55 PM
I can see this as a Pro Keller, Anti Keller discussion.

I see the pro Keller and Pro McKay.....Keller fans saying she is good for him, how did he ever live without her, hell he can't tie his shoes without Keller leading him to do as she tells him to.

The Anti Keller Anti McKay........Keller people see her as being bad for him and is going to do everything in her power to get between him and his friends and ruin the friendship between Rodney and John etc.

I really can see Keller as the type pf woman who WILL end up getting Jealous of Rodney's friendship with John and that too will put her in a bad light.

I guess this will just come down to if you like Keller then she's just trying to help him. If you don't like how Keller is in the relationship. then he's fine just the way he is!

Rodney IS arrogant, he IS smart, he IS nice to the people who he likes but at the same time they also see him as who he really is... a great friend who just puts on a front so he won't get hurt!

dasNdanger
November 27th, 2008, 04:08 PM
What it if hadn't workd and he'd stayed the same, even resented you for trying to change him? Would your union have been a happy one?

Well, we don't know. But I did see his qualities before we got married, saw small changes before we made a final commitment, so I knew what he was capable of. I would not have married him if he was bullheaded, or too proud to see where he could make improvement. But I saw a guy who had hidden potential, and I knew how best to bring it out (mainly because we are much alike - both needing reassurance, so I just gave him what I myself need).

In a good relationship people can help others to improve their personalities, can help bring out the best. I think that's all Keller is doing, and I see nothing wrong with it.


Dating or marrying someone with the intent to change them is never a good idea because the chances of failure and garnered resentment are too great.

Depends on the changes needed, and the tactics used...and the personalities involved. Dating should help you figure that all out - if, after a few months of dating, you see the other person is too set in their ways, and those are ways that annoy you, then break it off. No one should go into a marriage with the goal of changing a person, marriage shouldn't be about that. But that's what the courtship or dating should be about - to see if you are compatible, to see if you can inspire change, and to see if you can live with what can't be changed.


Secondly, Keller's methods at no point addressed the genuine beef Rodney had: that no one in that room knew how smart he was because he hadn't published a paper since joining the SGC, and that they felt justified in treating him like a nobody when they literally owed their lives to him thrice over. If it wasn't for Rodney they would all have been Wraith food by now and he is not allowed to tell them that. She scolded and shamed him for wanting credit in the eyes of his peers, something as a doctor she said she understood.


I think of Sheppard - how his brother ridiculed him, not knowing just what John has done, not just for the Pegasus galaxy, but for earth, as well. Sheppard humbly held his tongue. It was a sad moment for me, because I wanted his brother to know how much John has sacrificed for the greater good.

Rodney is possessed by his ego. He can't just accept that he's done great things, he must boast about it, as well. When you have no proof - nothing you can show for your hard work - better to keep silent, otherwise, you look like a fool. YES...it's natural to want credit for your hard work, for your knowledge and for your discoveries, but if such credit puts others at risk, or creates questions that are impossible to answer without revealing too many secrets...well, best to just bite your tongue. That's what Keller was encouraging Rodney to do - just hold his tongue. Why? Because she loved him and didn't want him to look like a fool. The fact that he showed up with such a beautiful woman on his arm should have been proof enough of his success...but he wasn't content with that. He wanted to toot his own horn, a horn that canNOT be sounded on earth just yet. He was being very irresponsible, very stubborn, and he was making himself look more foolish than if he had just held his tongue, and smuggly said, 'wouldn't you like to know what I've been up to.'

So, Keller knew exactly what he was doing - he was making a huge arse of himself, and she was trying to save him before he made things even worse.


das

DragonLadyK
November 27th, 2008, 04:19 PM
So, Keller knew exactly what he was doing - he was making a huge arse of himself, and she was trying to save him before he made things even worse.

But that's not what she said. She didn't say, "there's no way to get them to believe you without breaking confidentiality so just let it roll off," she didn't say, "why should a bunch of people who still think the pyramids are tombs matter to you.: She said, "your date's in a fancy dress; most people would be enjoying themselves right about now," and "I came to a physics talk, you have to bend a little, too," and then at the end shushed him because she wanted sex. She tried to stop him from telling Tunny how dangerous that thing was, which for someone who has been in Pegasus as long as she has is stupid beyond reason, and telling Rodney that "they know how smart you are" was patently false and also not very bright.

Even if Keller brings out the best in McKay (which she doesn't), he certainly brings out the scolding, selfish shrew in her.

DragonLady

dasNdanger
November 27th, 2008, 04:29 PM
Even if Keller brings out the best in McKay (which she doesn't), he certainly brings out the scolding, selfish shrew in her.

DragonLady


Okay - that part just made me lol! :lol:

Best thing I can say is - blame the writers. I think I understand what they were trying to do, but you have a bunch of men writing a female character, and - obviously - they see us more as scolding, selfish shrews than wise, tactful companions.

lol...I'm still laughing at that one - so I'll have to give you that!

das

silvercomet
November 27th, 2008, 11:07 PM
Here are some other things that could have been said on the plane other than "most people would be having a good time" (so therefore how you're feeling is invalid):

"Aw, come on, Rawdnee, let it go. You've saved the galaxy eight hundred times by now and anyone who is anyone knows it." (Sheppard)

"Bah. They are nobodies still lost in the 19th century, thinking the Earth is the only planet with life and the pyramids are merely tombs of dead kings." (Zelenka)

"Surely the lives you have saved and the hope you have brought the people of Pegasus is worth far more than any reward or paper, Rodney." (Teyla)

"Tunny's dumb. Ignore him." (Ronon)

All of those get Rodney to stop whining, but unlike Keller's "solution," they deal with the issue behind the complaints in a supportive way instead of telling Rodney he shouldn't feel guilty for his feelings.

Let's contrast Keller's behavior with another golden girl: Sam. Sam did not have to stick up for Rodney to Ellis. Rodney had already left the room and Ellis did have a point. Rodney's treatment of Sam has been far from stellar, so Sam could have felt vindicated by Ellis's belittling. But did Sam just stand there and smile? Nope. Sam, in a moment that brought to a close four years of hatred on my part, told Ellis that if he ever spoke to anyone under her command like that again he wouldn't be welcome on the base -- all that, just out of loyalty to her subordinates.

Keller doesn't even have that much loyalty for McKay, and he's supposedly her love.

Very well said! Especially how the others would have react. :D



..and say typically, that comes when the two have been in a relationship for awhile. When a relationship is in the early stages each person brings into the relationship their own expectations based on their own personal experiences that may or may not mesh well with the other person.

I just don't think that based on one date that it can be said that Jennifer is trying to change McKay...now if the behavior continued.....then yes I would agree, but it is too early in their relationship when they will be finding out more about each other then the co-workers will ever know about them.

I agree that she should have supported Rodney more, however I tend to not be so hard on someone on their first date...

Yes, it was their first 'date'. But isn't one point that the writers want us to believe that there has already been so much going on, when people complain this whole love-thing came out of the blue (like I do, too)?

I know from my own experience that there is a difference between just being good colleagues and being together in a relationship. But Atlantis isn't an usual workplace. I would think the people there are more familiar with each other. So I would think Keller should already know some things about Rodney.


Adults don't need to be lead as a rule, but I think we can all agree that Rodney is the exception to just about every rule there is. I don't think Rodney needs to be led in a general sense. He certainly doesn't need to be led where science is concerned. but when it comes to relationships he doesn't have a clue, and there's plenty of evidence to support that. (His infatuation with Sam and disastrous relationship with Katie come to mind.) If Rodney wants to be in a relationship, and why wouldn't he, I would think he'd want some help to figure out what to do, and like the brilliant scientist that he is he would learn from them.

I think there is a fine line between 'leading someone' and 'supporting/helping to improve oneself'. For me the former is a very bad and arrogant behaviour.


Which brings me to your next point. Doesn't everyone try to be a better person than they were yesterday, or are today? I try everyday to be a better father to my daughters than I was, and I try everyday to be a better husband to my wife, I try to be a better friend to my friends, and I try to be a better fanfic writer each time I write something, and all that together means I try to be a better person, for I know that I'm not perfect. (Though I won't admit that to my wife.) Is there a perfect person out there? Is Rodney perfect?

And it doesn't necessarily mean that being a better person in some areas means that Rodney has to lose the traits that we know him for. I know it seems that way, but it doesn't. It may actually help those traits in some ways. For example, if Rodney wasn't always an arrogant ass as he sometimes can be, people may be more prone to listening to him and accepting his help, advice and whatever.

Well, I'm not perfect and I don't want to be a perfect person. ;) And I don't want Rodney to be perfect. That's just boring for me.

I still have a problem with the term 'better'. What does that mean? I guess everybody thinks different about that. I can't say the opinion of someone is the one and only truth. I just see Rodney different than Keller does apparently. I would have reacted completely different in this situation.

Do I try to be a better person? Hm. Wouldn't this mean that I think of myself I am in some way a bad person? Of course I don't want deliberately to hurt other people's feelings. But I don't want to chance my personality, the person who I am, just to satisfy other people.

I do agree being arrogant often isn't helping the matter. But I don't think to tell a person that (how he should react) is very helpful. I believe more in 'learning by doing/learning first hand' and 'learn from other people (how they act/behave). And I wish my partner supports me in that way and doesn't behave like a parent towards me.



With all due respect, and it's considerable as you're making your points very well I think, I disagree. These people barely tolerate Rodney, and consider him washed out and a recluse and so on...why would they be inclined to listen to someone they don't know at all like Jennifer? She could hardly confirm anything with any substance.

It's just a guess from me that these people would have believed Rodney more when another person had stood by his side. Of course, I don't know if this is true.


I can see this as a Pro Keller, Anti Keller discussion.

I guess this will just come down to if you like Keller then she's just trying to help him. If you don't like how Keller is in the relationship. then he's fine just the way he is!

You're right. I admit I don't like the Keller character at all. Because of this I'm way more critical than I would be with a character I like. Hey, I'm only human. ;)


Rodney IS arrogant, he IS smart, he IS nice to the people who he likes but at the same time they also see him as who he really is... a great friend who just puts on a front so he won't get hurt!

Well said.:D


When you have no proof - nothing you can show for your hard work - better to keep silent, otherwise, you look like a fool. YES...it's natural to want credit for your hard work, for your knowledge and for your discoveries, but if such credit puts others at risk, or creates questions that are impossible to answer without revealing too many secrets...well, best to just bite your tongue.

Sure, that's the reasonable way. But I don't think reasonable is always the best. I wouldn't just bite my tongue. ;)


The fact that he showed up with such a beautiful woman on his arm should have been proof enough of his success...

I don't understand that. How is it a success to show up with a beautiful woman? Is she some kind of an award? And does that mean he would have failed if she hadn't been beautiful? :confused:


So, Keller knew exactly what he was doing - he was making a huge arse of himself, and she was trying to save him before he made things even worse.


I still think, supporting him would have been the better way.

Ganthet Jr.
November 27th, 2008, 11:20 PM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.

And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.

If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.

Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.

Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.

No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!


Hmm, I don't necessarily define "who a person is" by their actions on the surface. Whether he's being a prick or not, he's still Rodney McKay in personality and spirit. She's just trying to make life a little easier for him, not trying to change him.

Willow'sCat
November 27th, 2008, 11:20 PM
No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!
Oh; I like you. ;)

rarocks24
November 28th, 2008, 07:36 AM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.

And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.

If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.

Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.

Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.

No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

This post just shows you don't understand women.

fumblesmcstupid
November 28th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Uh, Don't lump me in with Keller please!

I have no desire to be dragged along in a blanket statement about how other people view women!

Keller is a representation and Gero has no problem making Keller out to be the cliche of the domineering, overbearing WOMAN who needs to CHANGE everything she don't like about Rodney.

I almost feel sorry for the way Gero is writing Keller, but my seething hatred is taking center stage where Keller is concerned!

JohnDuh
November 28th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.


Sounds like rubbish to me.




And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.


On the contrary, the only reason to give in to the sensible is someone worth doing it for.



If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it.


No, if she cares about him she will help him do fewer things which cause him pain - and he is hurting himself, and he knows, but has been unable to help himself.




No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

Yeah,she's evil, she clearly stole "your man"

Cautious Explorer
November 28th, 2008, 08:44 AM
Hmm, I don't necessarily define "who a person is" by their actions on the surface. Whether he's being a prick or not, he's still Rodney McKay in personality and spirit. She's just trying to make life a little easier for him, not trying to change him.

Who is she really interested in making life easier for, herself or Rodney?

Happytree_8
November 28th, 2008, 03:43 PM
Who is she really interested in making life easier for, herself or Rodney?



If she was making life easier for herself, she wouldn't have even gone in the first place. She knew Rodney didn't like those people, she knew they didn't like him, it doesn't take a genius to figure out it wasn't going to be a pleasant meeting,especially considering his personality, but she went anyways, indicating she was going for him. And physics talk, she had no idea what they were talking about the entire time. Alot of the things she did were her bending for Rodney.

Cautious Explorer
November 29th, 2008, 06:57 AM
If she was making life easier for herself, she wouldn't have even gone in the first place. She knew Rodney didn't like those people, she knew they didn't like him, it doesn't take a genius to figure out it wasn't going to be a pleasant meeting,especially considering his personality, but she went anyways, indicating she was going for him. And physics talk, she had no idea what they were talking about the entire time. Alot of the things she did were her bending for Rodney.

She didn't know how he related to the other scientists until they were on the jet did she? What was she going to do at that point, refuse to get off?

I didn't see a lot of giving on her part. And I don't count her acceptance of the date in the first place --- that would be a pity date and we're supposed to believe she's in love.

Keller struck me as someone who had already mapped out what her date would be like ahead of time and was trying desperately to fit McKay into the image she had concocted.

I would have cracked up if McKay had taken one look at her in the frumpy dress and boots and said, you're not seriously wearing that are you? Maybe then I could have believed there was an equal relationship there -- both dissatisfied and trying to change each other.

Happytree_8
November 29th, 2008, 09:11 AM
She didn't know how he related to the other scientists until they were on the jet did she? What was she going to do at that point, refuse to get off?

I didn't see a lot of giving on her part. And I don't count her acceptance of the date in the first place --- that would be a pity date and we're supposed to believe she's in love.

Keller struck me as someone who had already mapped out what her date would be like ahead of time and was trying desperately to fit McKay into the image she had concocted.

I would have cracked up if McKay had taken one look at her in the frumpy dress and boots and said, you're not seriously wearing that are you? Maybe then I could have believed there was an equal relationship there -- both dissatisfied and trying to change each other.


She knows he doesn't get along with people very well, especially other scientists, she's not stupid, she knew what she was getting into. And I don't see it as a pity date, I see it as her wanting to be with him, even at something as boring(at least to her) as a physics talk. But, that's simply my opinion and I think that's what the writers were trying to get across also, unless they wouldn't have even bothered with the ship.


I see it as her trying to protect him from himself. I'm sure she knew getting up in the middle of the presentation and yelling his disagreements wasn't going to solve anything, especially since those people didn't like him in the first place. Infact, right before the presentation, they were telling her how much he would say "that was my idea!". It's obvious they would have taken is the same way if he stated it during the lecture. As awesome as Rodney Mckay is, he doesn't think then talk, which is why he needs a calmer person like Keller to balance him out. For example, my boyfriend is the same as Rodney, says what's on his mind without thinking, it's get him into trouble, alot. So, I point things out ahead of time. Doesn't mean I'm trying to change him, means i'm trying to protect him. I don't want someone to insult him, hurt him or ridicule him for who he is. There is alot of good in Rodney Mckay, good that gets covered up by his remarks and his inability to think before he speaks. Seems to me that Jennifer Keller sees that and is only trying to bring out the good. Sometimes, the truth hurts and it's not pretty, but, it takes someone who loves you to say it.

DragonLadyK
November 29th, 2008, 09:21 AM
I'm sure she knew getting up in the middle of the presentation and yelling his disagreements wasn't going to solve anything, especially since those people didn't like him in the first place. Infact, right before the presentation, they were telling her how much he would say "that was my idea!". It's obvious they would have taken is the same way if he stated it during the lecture.

It would have helped if she'd stood up, said she worked with McKay and though is work was classified he was right and that opening an inter-universe bridge had nearly destroyed their lab. Or she could have shushed him during the talk but then said, "look, they're not going to believe you. While everyone's having cocoa let's just sneak away, find a phone, and tell the SGC what's going on so they can keep an eye on it from the outside." Anything supportive or helpful instead of just dragging on his arm and telling him to shush as if he was embarrassing her.

Besides, the fact she wasn't alarmed doesn't speak highly of Keller: she's been in Pegasus long enough to know that when Rodney sets up that kind of flail that there is bad juju on the way.

DragonLady

Cautious Explorer
November 29th, 2008, 09:52 AM
She knows he doesn't get along with people very well, especially other scientists, she's not stupid, she knew what she was getting into. And I don't see it as a pity date, I see it as her wanting to be with him, even at something as boring(at least to her) as a physics talk. But, that's simply my opinion and I think that's what the writers were trying to get across also, unless they wouldn't have even bothered with the ship.

Yes, she should have known what she was getting into. If she could deal with it and go along and enjoy it anyway, more power to her. Otherwise, if she was going with the expectation that it would be boring, Rodney would embarass himself and the only thing to look forward to was the possiblity of joining the mile high club on the way home, then I would call it a pity date.



I see it as her trying to protect him from himself. I'm sure she knew getting up in the middle of the presentation and yelling his disagreements wasn't going to solve anything, especially since those people didn't like him in the first place. Infact, right before the presentation, they were telling her how much he would say "that was my idea!". It's obvious they would have taken is the same way if he stated it during the lecture. As awesome as Rodney Mckay is, he doesn't think then talk, which is why he needs a calmer person like Keller to balance him out. For example, my boyfriend is the same as Rodney, says what's on his mind without thinking, it's get him into trouble, alot. So, I point things out ahead of time. Doesn't mean I'm trying to change him, means i'm trying to protect him. I don't want someone to insult him, hurt him or ridicule him for who he is. There is alot of good in Rodney Mckay, good that gets covered up by his remarks and his inability to think before he speaks. Seems to me that Jennifer Keller sees that and is only trying to bring out the good. Sometimes, the truth hurts and it's not pretty, but, it takes someone who loves you to say it.

Fine, but when did Jennifer Keller become the perfect person? She's put her foot in her mouth plenty of times, lacked the confidence to speak up when she should, and obviously has pretty bad fashion sense. It should go both ways. If one person is trying to protect the other from embarassment and ridicule, shouldn't the other be free to do so also?

Does your boyfriend return the favor?

Happytree_8
November 29th, 2008, 10:01 AM
Yes, she should have known what she was getting into. If she could deal with it and go along and enjoy it anyway, more power to her. Otherwise, if she was going with the expectation that it would be boring, Rodney would embarass himself and the only thing to look forward to was the possiblity of joining the mile high club on the way home, then I would call it a pity date.



Fine, but when did Jennifer Keller become the perfect person? She's put her foot in her mouth plenty of times, lacked the confidence to speak up when she should, and obviously has pretty bad fashion sense. It should go both ways. If one person is trying to protect the other from embarassment and ridicule, shouldn't the other be free to do so also?

Does your boyfriend return the favor?


Nobody is perfect, but that doesn't mean someone can't recognize when someone is wrong. And yes, he does reture the favor. I have confidence issues and he is always trying to change that part about me, is he wrong for that? Is he wrong for trying to make me better by me believing in myself more? And their relationship just began, there is no telling what Mckay will do to help her later on. Infact...It says that in Infection, she isn't confident about her abilities to cure the illness and she experiences a lack of confidence and Rodney is there to make her stop thinking that and get back on track

It's only been 1 episode since their relationship took off, it's not going to be perfect, but, it's a start.

Cautious Explorer
November 29th, 2008, 11:07 AM
Nobody is perfect, but that doesn't mean someone can't recognize when someone is wrong. And yes, he does reture the favor. I have confidence issues and he is always trying to change that part about me, is he wrong for that? Is he wrong for trying to make me better by me believing in myself more? And their relationship just began, there is no telling what Mckay will do to help her later on. Infact...It says that in Infection, she isn't confident about her abilities to cure the illness and she experiences a lack of confidence and Rodney is there to make her stop thinking that and get back on track

It's only been 1 episode since their relationship took off, it's not going to be perfect, but, it's a start.

I guess we just aren't going to see this the same way. I think there's a world of difference between encouraging someone to be more confident in their abilities and telling someone to shut up and sit down so they don't embarass you. And that's how I saw Keller behaving. She's right. He's wrong. Believe me, I don't like either character enough to play favorites, but Keller seemed completely embarassed by Rodney. If this were just a first date, I'd pass it off as a Gero's feeble attempt at humor and his sexist nature shining through, but it isn't just a bad first date. Supposedly they're in love. I don't think true love is quite so critical -- especially in such a one-sided way.

MechaThor
November 29th, 2008, 11:10 AM
Wow, some people really like trying to find faults in Keller and arguments against her. She is not even a bad character, infact if it was her first then Beckett came and replaced her I bet people would equally be moaning about Beckett and deciding they hate him just because they wanted to bring in a new doc.

Anyways I don't think she is trying to change Rodney,... well not completely. But instead just trying and steer him towards being more confident and a better person. Its not like in the next episode we will see a brand new and completely different Rodney, but rather a slightly more confident and less egotistic Rodney, which is a good thing, since its a massive and positive boost in his characters development.

Personally I am happy they got together.

DragonLadyK
November 29th, 2008, 11:37 AM
Wow, some people really like trying to find faults in Keller and arguments against her.

I didn't even like Beckett when he was on, I still don't in a lot of ways. Keller, however, and her whining, simpering, incompetent and self-righteous nature that everyone loves her anyway for, friendships that she never had to earn, drives me absolutely bananas. This episode only highlighted the self-righteous and incompetent parts of her nature -- the fact that she is the Wesley Crusher of SGA, the Mary Sue character two-thirds of the fandom doesn't like or doesn't care about who still gets the lion's share of the screentime.

I don't have to try to find fault with Keller, hon, they're right there in technicolor.

DragonLady

jelgate
November 29th, 2008, 11:43 AM
I didn't even like Beckett when he was on, I still don't in a lot of ways. Keller, however, and her whining, simpering, incompetent and self-righteous nature that everyone loves her anyway for, friendships that she never had to earn, drives me absolutely bananas. This episode only highlighted the self-righteous and incompetent parts of her nature -- the fact that she is the Wesley Crusher of SGA, the Mary Sue character two-thirds of the fandom doesn't like or doesn't care about who still gets the lion's share of the screentime.I don't have to try to find fault with Keller, hon, they're right there in technicolor.DragonLadyI think its less then 2/3:o

DragonLadyK
November 29th, 2008, 11:53 AM
I think its less then 2/3:o

All the Keller polls I've seen (Reiko's, mine, various internet reviewers) have come out pretty much the same: one third likes or loves her, one third is annoyed by or hates her, one third votes some level of apathy. Keller fics and Keller ship fics are all over ff.net, but not one Keller ship has yet to scrape up a spot on Wraithbait and Keller fics are posted less than one a month to the LJ noticeboard. Here on GW the anti-Keller thread has thousands more views and posts than its pro-Keller counterpart; the non-anti-Keller Keller threads that get the most views/posts are ones that ship her with already-popular characters such as Ronon or McKay. Reviews of Brain Storm were overwhelmingly bad, both here on GW and on LJ.

She's certainly the fandom Scrappy, if not The Wesley. The only character I've seen hated more vociferously was Dawn from Buffy.

DragonLady

Rac80
November 29th, 2008, 11:54 AM
FCOL people of course she is trying to change him!!! HE IS MCKAY!!! that means he is an arrogant, annoying, supercillious, JERK!!!! if any man needs changing it is HE!!!! He isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is (Sam and Jeannie are both much smarter than he is ....and they are nice to boot!), he treats everyone else in a sub-human way (some of my favorite scenes were when Hermiod was more arrogant than mckay... loved the look on mkcay's face!), and expects everyone to cheer him on!

THAT MAN NEEDS TO BE CHANGED!!!!! (and not just his diaper!)

*goes looking for a vid of "chchchchanges" * :rolleyes:

SoulReaver
November 29th, 2008, 12:02 PM
He isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is (Sam and Jeannie are both much smarter than he is ....and they are nice to boot!)uh no if the latest SGA episodes haven't made it obvious enough, McKay is leagues beyond Carter
he may be riddled with flaws but face it he's Earth's smartest and he knows it

Carter's infinitely more pleasant to behold though, I'll give you that ^__^

Cautious Explorer
November 29th, 2008, 12:03 PM
FCOL people of course she is trying to change him!!! HE IS MCKAY!!! that means he is an arrogant, annoying, supercillious, JERK!!!! if any man needs changing it is HE!!!! He isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is (Sam and Jeannie are both much smarter than he is ....and they are nice to boot!), he treats everyone else in a sub-human way (some of my favorite scenes were when Hermiod was more arrogant than mckay... loved the look on mkcay's face!), and expects everyone to cheer him on!

THAT MAN NEEDS TO BE CHANGED!!!!! (and not just his diaper!)

*goes looking for a vid of "chchchchanges" * :rolleyes:

Sure, but I'm not claiming to be in love with him.

Rac80
November 29th, 2008, 12:36 PM
Sure, but I'm not claiming to be in love with him.

I don't think Jennifer is either!...it's Neeva...neeva...neeva!

fumblesmcstupid
November 29th, 2008, 12:40 PM
When is Neeva supposed to have taken over the "doctor"?
just out of curiosity?

Madeleine
November 29th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

I love my sisters unconditionally, but if any of them are out of line, I'll tell them. I can handle it when they do the same to me, because I know that they love me too. I think Shep loves Rodney; but he's not so soppy that he blithely puts up with rodney being too much of a git. Why should Keller?

Sometimes Mr W behaves in ways which I think are Just Not On, and he'd think me a right wet doormat of a pillock if I didn't at least pull a face. And there are many times when I've been grateful to Mr W for alerting me to things I've done which have later made me ashamed.

We each rely on each other to say the sorts of things that people who love each other unconditionally can hear - without taking it the wrong way.

Happytree_8
November 29th, 2008, 01:51 PM
I guess we just aren't going to see this the same way. I think there's a world of difference between encouraging someone to be more confident in their abilities and telling someone to shut up and sit down so they don't embarass you. And that's how I saw Keller behaving. She's right. He's wrong. Believe me, I don't like either character enough to play favorites, but Keller seemed completely embarassed by Rodney. If this were just a first date, I'd pass it off as a Gero's feeble attempt at humor and his sexist nature shining through, but it isn't just a bad first date. Supposedly they're in love. I don't think true love is quite so critical -- especially in such a one-sided way.



I see your point, but, let's agree to disagree.

It's only the beginning, maybe in the next 4 episodes and movie, things will be different and their relationship would be more agreeable for all sides.

Very wishful thinking, I know, but, i'm an optimist

fumblesmcstupid
November 29th, 2008, 02:25 PM
Staite isn't listed in the IMDB for the Atlantis movie in 2009! *claps hands in joy* So maybe we won't have to see her! :)

Rac80
November 29th, 2008, 02:35 PM
When is Neeva supposed to have taken over the "doctor"?
just out of curiosity?

at any time really. Are you a DS9 fan?

fumblesmcstupid
November 29th, 2008, 02:42 PM
*looks at the ground * not really, no! .......Oh! is Neeva from DS9?

silvercomet
November 30th, 2008, 03:43 AM
It would have helped if she'd stood up, said she worked with McKay and though is work was classified he was right and that opening an inter-universe bridge had nearly destroyed their lab. Or she could have shushed him during the talk but then said, "look, they're not going to believe you. While everyone's having cocoa let's just sneak away, find a phone, and tell the SGC what's going on so they can keep an eye on it from the outside." Anything supportive or helpful instead of just dragging on his arm and telling him to shush as if he was embarrassing her.

Besides, the fact she wasn't alarmed doesn't speak highly of Keller: she's been in Pegasus long enough to know that when Rodney sets up that kind of flail that there is bad juju on the way.

DragonLady


I guess we just aren't going to see this the same way. I think there's a world of difference between encouraging someone to be more confident in their abilities and telling someone to shut up and sit down so they don't embarass you. And that's how I saw Keller behaving. She's right. He's wrong. Believe me, I don't like either character enough to play favorites, but Keller seemed completely embarassed by Rodney. If this were just a first date, I'd pass it off as a Gero's feeble attempt at humor and his sexist nature shining through, but it isn't just a bad first date. Supposedly they're in love. I don't think true love is quite so critical -- especially in such a one-sided way.

I completely agree (except: McKay is one of my favourite character ;)).


It's only the beginning, maybe in the next 4 episodes and movie, things will be different and their relationship would be more agreeable for all sides.

This will be difficult. The only thing more agreeable for me would be when they break up - soon. ;) :p

Rac80
November 30th, 2008, 04:46 AM
*looks at the ground * not really, no! .......Oh! is Neeva from DS9?

No, but the concept is! The character of dr. bashir was replaced by a changling for several episodes. It was only revealed when another character found the real dr. bashir. the substitution had taken place off screen and it had been 5 or 6 eps since it had happened. It ahd been very well done, you could rewatch the eps and see the little hints that something wasn't right about bashir, but not in your face clues. (notice the people replaced are both doctors!) That is my theory on the neeva substitution! :)

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 03:29 AM
He didn't make a move, didn't mean he didn't have feelings for her.
I refuse to reply to your post since you attempted to strawman my post by adding this preposterous statement. Where did I ever say anything to indicate anything even remotely similar to what you just said?

And if I haven't, why did you feel the need to bring it up, as if it had any relevance?

Don't add little things that have no relevance, especially not when, in the eyes of the uninitiated (i.e., the people who did not read the opposing side's posts) it will look like a reply to something the opposing side said.

Even if you did not mean it in "that way", it is still a classic (bad) debate technique in order to discredit the opposing side.

Madeleine
December 1st, 2008, 04:59 AM
why did you feel the need to bring it up, as if it had any relevance?

I expect it seemed relevant to the poster. I can see how, since it seems relevant to me. You can find it irrelevant, of course, with no hard feelings, but would you mind not telling other people what they can and can't post?

Also, bear in mind that disagreeing with a person is not the same as attempting to discredit them. Most people are happy enough just to discuss. And when an accusation of strawmanning and bad debating techniques appears seemingly from nowhere, it can look remarkably like one of those self-fulfilling prophecies....

Can we just stick to discussion, rather than discussion of discussion?

Cheers.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 05:16 AM
I expect it seemed relevant to the poster. I can see how, since it seems relevant to me. You can find it irrelevant, of course, with no hard feelings, but would you mind not telling other people what they can and can't post?

Also, bear in mind that disagreeing with a person is not the same as attempting to discredit them. Most people are happy enough just to discuss. And when an accusation of strawmanning and bad debating techniques appears seemingly from nowhere, it can look remarkably like one of those self-fulfilling prophecies....

Can we just stick to discussion, rather than discussion of discussion?

Cheers.
That was not the problem. They quoted a post of mine. They then went on to reply to that post. In the middle of this reply to what I'd said, they threw in something that had nothing to do with what I said or what I had argued.

To those who aren't paying attention, they'd think I'd said it or something similar to it. This is deceptive debating at worst (if it was deliberate) or bad debating at worst (if it was unintentional).

You do not bring in things that have nothing to do with what someone just said if you're rebutting what they said. Because it's irrelevant to the current discussion.

It might be relevant to the thread in general. But don't quote me and argue something I did not argue... because in that post and in that reply, what you are saying is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with what is being discussed at the moment.

I also never said they cannot argue in this way. I just said I refused to reply to their reply since they argued in this way. People have a right to argue however they choose to lest they break the rules. I, however, have a right to elect not to reply to them if they choose to do so.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 05:49 AM
I wonder why exactly so many people are resistant to see the character of Rodney McKay change?

I mean, no one is perfect and as much as we all may love (or love to hate) the character, he isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination either. He's arrogant and proud, and while he may have a reason (being the foremost mind in 2 galaxies is a good reason) this doesn't mean that tempering this attitude would not be a good idea. He can be petty and mean and cruel, and for this there is often no excuse.

So I wonder, with all of his personality faults, why are people averse to seeing a woman who loves him attempt to make him a better person? There's nothing wrong with asking him to be more humble...a lot of people would do better by being more humble in general...or asking him to be more generous with people.

She may have not seen the change in him in The Shrine, but come on! Seriously?! She was supposed to diagnose Rodney with being "too kind"? What the hell kind of person would that have made her? Someone who couldn't see the good in the man she cared for because he was "never" nice to people? That's ridiculous and one of the more preposterous things I've heard.

Imagine..."Hello, Doctor. I think you need to take a look at my husband here. The problem? Oh, he's just being nice."

As for Brainstorm, Rodney's hardly a pushover. We saw that at the end. He can and does stand up for himself and, lo and behold!, Jennifer understands.

Are their personalities supposed to remain stagnant throughout a relationship? That's unrealistic. People change. Loved ones care enough to be concerned about flaws and not ignore them because, "That's just how it is." I'm not saying that their role is one that means forcing the change, but I definitely think their the only people a person will whole-heartedly listen to and attempt to become better for.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 06:11 AM
Stuff.
This is not the point. The point is whether or not she actually loves him and has been in love with him "for a very long time" if she wants him to change like this.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 06:25 AM
This is not the point. The point is whether or not she actually loves him and has been in love with him "for a very long time" if she wants him to change like this.

It very much is the point because your entire argument for her supposedly not loving him is predicated on the notion that if she did love him, she would not want him to change.

I'm pointing out that while love does mean accepting the bad with the good and loving the person despite their character flaws, it also means a betterment of both people involved in the relationship.

So, yes, I do think she loves him.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 06:36 AM
It very much is the point because your entire argument for her supposedly not loving him is predicated on the notion that if she did love him, she would not want him to change.

I'm pointing out that while love does mean accepting the bad with the good and loving the person despite their character flaws, it also means a betterment of both people involved in the relationship.

So, yes, I do think she loves him.
Part of the point is also that she wants to change a lot about him. And that many of these things aren't even that large of inconveniences for him or other people.

And that it's quite curious for her to have been in love with him "for a very long" time (yet unable to tell him this, despite him already having told her the same thing), yet be to annoyed by so many aspects of his personality she wants him to change them. Because then you're in love with who you want him to be, not who he is at this very moment.

A few minor things, maybe. Many, many things? Not so much.

Madeleine
December 1st, 2008, 07:33 AM
That was not the problem. They quoted a post of mine. They then went on to reply to that post. In the middle of this reply to what I'd said, they threw in something that had nothing to do with what I said or what I had argued.

Like I said, it seemed to me to be relevant to what you were saying.


It might be relevant to the thread in general. But don't quote me and argue something I did not argue... because in that post and in that reply, what you are saying is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with what is being discussed at the moment.

I'd have thought you'd be happy that it quoted you, since anyone could see that far from implying that you'd said somethinng that you hadn't, the poster was throwing in an idea which connected with something you'd said.


I also never said they cannot argue in this way. I just said I refused to reply to their reply since they argued in this way. People have a right to argue however they choose to lest they break the rules. I, however, have a right to elect not to reply to them if they choose to do so.

Your third paragraph seemed to me to be you telling another poster how to post. That might not be the same exact words as telling someone they cannot argue in this way, but it amounts to the same thing. Please don't.

And you have every right to 'not reply' to a post. But most people do their 'not replying' by not replying, not by accusing them of all manner of bad behaviour.

Please let other posters post without commands or accusations. Any queries, please PM. Cheers.

Madeleine
GateWorld Moderator

Cautious Explorer
December 1st, 2008, 08:20 AM
I wonder why exactly so many people are resistant to see the character of Rodney McKay change?

I mean, no one is perfect and as much as we all may love (or love to hate) the character, he isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination either. He's arrogant and proud, and while he may have a reason (being the foremost mind in 2 galaxies is a good reason) this doesn't mean that tempering this attitude would not be a good idea. He can be petty and mean and cruel, and for this there is often no excuse.

So I wonder, with all of his personality faults, why are people averse to seeing a woman who loves him attempt to make him a better person? There's nothing wrong with asking him to be more humble...a lot of people would do better by being more humble in general...or asking him to be more generous with people.

She may have not seen the change in him in The Shrine, but come on! Seriously?! She was supposed to diagnose Rodney with being "too kind"? What the hell kind of person would that have made her? Someone who couldn't see the good in the man she cared for because he was "never" nice to people? That's ridiculous and one of the more preposterous things I've heard.

Imagine..."Hello, Doctor. I think you need to take a look at my husband here. The problem? Oh, he's just being nice."

As for Brainstorm, Rodney's hardly a pushover. We saw that at the end. He can and does stand up for himself and, lo and behold!, Jennifer understands.

Are their personalities supposed to remain stagnant throughout a relationship? That's unrealistic. People change. Loved ones care enough to be concerned about flaws and not ignore them because, "That's just how it is." I'm not saying that their role is one that means forcing the change, but I definitely think their the only people a person will whole-heartedly listen to and attempt to become better for.

Personally, I wouldn't like to see the person that Keller seems to be trying to mold Rodney into. He'd be just as dull and boring as she is.

I wouldn't mind seeing him be a little less rude and obnoxious to his friends and colleagues, but I'd like it to be because he's learned to respect the way they treat him in return. Being nagged into it because he wants to have sex with Keller just seems like a really bad reason.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 08:45 AM
Part of the point is also that she wants to change a lot about him. And that many of these things aren't even that large of inconveniences for him or other people.

She asked him to be more humble and to complain less. If that's a lot in your mind, then continuing to argue this is pointless.

I'm sure the people he's cruel to would disagree with you on the last. Genius does not excuse meanness.



And that it's quite curious for her to have been in love with him "for a very long" time (yet unable to tell him this, despite him already having told her the same thing),

The circumstances were unusual to say the least. You can hardly blame her for that.



yet be to annoyed by so many aspects of his personality she wants him to change them. Because then you're in love with who you want him to be, not who he is at this very moment.

I never saw her as annoyed with anything. Exasperated, sure. Not annoyed. But then, who hasn't been exasperated with Rodney at one point or another?

I find your insistence that Jennifer is in love with the potential Rodney she could create very interesting. She tried to get him to be more considerate, tried to get him to accept the views of others more often, and to generally be nicer. That's a bad thing? And when he told her, that's just who he is, she left it alone.

Don't forget, for the convenience of your argument, that in Trio she told Rodney that Katie deserved a good man like him. She obviously didn't mind his vices then and still considered him to be a good man.

Jennifer is a woman who doesn't stand for the vitriol Rodney spews out on a regular basis. Good for her, I say.


Personally, I wouldn't like to see the person that Keller seems to be trying to mold Rodney into. He'd be just as dull and boring as she is.

I wouldn't mind seeing him be a little less rude and obnoxious to his friends and colleagues, but I'd like it to be because he's learned to respect the way they treat him in return. Being nagged into it because he wants to have sex with Keller just seems like a really bad reason.

I'm curious.

If Jennifer were a character you liked, or if this were a relationship you supported, would you still despise the idea of self-betterment through love?

She's not nagging him, she's not withholding sex, she's not being mean or yelling at him or anything really horrible. All she did was tell him to try being more humble and more considerate. That's hardly insane or out of the realm of realism and it certainly isn't an indication that she's trying to "mold" him into Prince Charming.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 08:49 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing him be a little less rude and obnoxious to his friends and colleagues, but I'd like it to be because he's learned to respect the way they treat him in return. Being nagged into it because he wants to have sex with Keller just seems like a really bad reason.
The thing is that he's much less rude and obnoxious to his friends nowadays. And when he isn't, they know he doesn't mean it in a rude or obnoxious way, it's just his way of speaking.

Jennifer seems preoccupied with Rodney appearing less rude and obnoxious in the eyes of people that do not know him, as if it mattered. To Rodney, it doesn't matter if people dislike him if they do not know him. For Jennifer, this seems to matter, even for people other than herself.

To me, it sounds like a woman who wants to be less embarrassed by her boyfriend not for his sake but for her sake.

Cautious Explorer
December 1st, 2008, 09:11 AM
She asked him to be more humble and to complain less. If that's a lot in your mind, then continuing to argue this is pointless.

I'm sure the people he's cruel to would disagree with you on the last. Genius does not excuse meanness.



The circumstances were unusual to say the least. You can hardly blame her for that.



I never saw her as annoyed with anything. Exasperated, sure. Not annoyed. But then, who hasn't been exasperated with Rodney at one point or another?

I find your insistence that Jennifer is in love with the potential Rodney she could create very interesting. She tried to get him to be more considerate, tried to get him to accept the views of others more often, and to generally be nicer. That's a bad thing? And when he told her, that's just who he is, she left it alone.

Don't forget, for the convenience of your argument, that in Trio she told Rodney that Katie deserved a good man like him. She obviously didn't mind his vices then and still considered him to be a good man.

Jennifer is a woman who doesn't stand for the vitriol Rodney spews out on a regular basis. Good for her, I say.



I'm curious.

If Jennifer were a character you liked, or if this were a relationship you supported, would you still despise the idea of self-betterment through love?

She's not nagging him, she's not withholding sex, she's not being mean or yelling at him or anything really horrible. All she did was tell him to try being more humble and more considerate. That's hardly insane or out of the realm of realism and it certainly isn't an indication that she's trying to "mold" him into Prince Charming.

If Keller were a character I lliked (and that's a big if), I still wouldn't like the way this relationship is presented. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting the best for the person they love. There's nothing wrong with two people making compromises in a relationship. The problem I had was 1) Most people don't start harping on the first date 2) When it's only one-sided, that's a very bad sign.

I don't like the rude, obnoxious Rodney that we've often seen lately in his treatment of Zelenka, but I don't want to go to the other extreme of a quiet, agreeable, rather brow-beaten Rodney like we had with Katie and now Keller. He loses all his snark and sarcasm when he tries to be whatever it is he thinks women want from him. I don't like Rodney without his sarcasm. Without sarcasm, he's just a geeky, dull, jack-of-all-trades scientist --- or in other words, Keller.

Did she ever actually complement the man? (She may have, I admit to not paying attention to a lot of this episode). I was waiting for Rodney to offer her some constructive criticism back, but no, I guess she's just too perfect.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 09:28 AM
If Keller were a character I lliked (and that's a big if), I still wouldn't like the way this relationship is presented. There's nothing wrong with someone wanting the best for the person they love. There's nothing wrong with two people making compromises in a relationship. The problem I had was 1) Most people don't start harping on the first date 2) When it's only one-sided, that's a very bad sign.

If this had been like every other first date in the history of first dates, then I would agree,

But this wasn't a first date between two people who barely knew each other. They'd worked together for years, experienced many crazy things together, she already knew he loved her. I think their circumstances were much different.



I don't like the rude, obnoxious Rodney that we've often seen lately in his treatment of Zelenka, but I don't want to go to the other extreme of a quiet, agreeable, rather brow-beaten Rodney like we had with Katie and now Keller. He loses all his snark and sarcasm when he tries to be whatever it is he thinks women want from him. I don't like Rodney without his sarcasm. Without sarcasm, he's just a geeky, dull, jack-of-all-trades scientist --- or in other words, Keller.

I don't think that's what she's trying to get out of him and I don't think that's how he is with her all the time either. He certainly wasn't that man in Trio and we haven't seen them together in enough episodes to really make the definitive statement that he forces himself to be like that for her always.

He may act different towards her than with others and that makes sense. Why would he be cruel and petty with her? But we have seen him pull out the sarcasm with her, so that argument doesn't stand.



Did she ever actually complement the man? (She may have, I admit to not paying attention to a lot of this episode). I was waiting for Rodney to offer her some constructive criticism back, but no, I guess she's just too perfect.

I'd have to rewatch :: shudder :: or just read the transcript :: smaller shudder ::. I'll get back to you on that.


But the only reason I was asking about whether your reaction would have been different if you could stand Keller was because I know I react differently when a character I hate does something vs. a character I like doing a similar thing.

Take Ronon for example. I can't stand him. Which is why in First Contact his portrayal as Jennifer's "protector" combined with his irritating penchant to carry her bags and so forth aggravated me so much.

Cautious Explorer
December 1st, 2008, 10:49 AM
If this had been like every other first date in the history of first dates, then I would agree,

But this wasn't a first date between two people who barely knew each other. They'd worked together for years, experienced many crazy things together, she already knew he loved her. I think their circumstances were much different.

But in my mind that makes it worse. She didn't accept a date with a charming man only to find to her dismay that he might not be what she expected. She's known him long enough to know exactly what she's getting into. If that's going to be a problem, then she shouldn't go on the date to begin with.



I don't think that's what she's trying to get out of him and I don't think that's how he is with her all the time either. He certainly wasn't that man in Trio and we haven't seen them together in enough episodes to really make the definitive statement that he forces himself to be like that for her always.

Ouch. I hope we never see that Rodney again. I thought everyone involved in that episode came out looking petty and incompetent. Of course, that was before he discovered his great love for Keller -- up to that point it was just lust for both her and Carter.



He may act different towards her than with others and that makes sense. Why would he be cruel and petty with her? But we have seen him pull out the sarcasm with her, so that argument doesn't stand.

Why would he be rude and obnoxious to his teamates who have saved his life over and over again? Why berate the friend and colleague who's stood by his side many times? I'm seeing a man who changes his personality to suit what he thinks his woman of the moment wants to see. And no, I don't think we've seen him be sarcastic with Keller. I guess I missed it if we have. (And that's entirely possible. I do tend to fast forward a lot when Keller and McKay are around.)



I'd have to rewatch :: shudder :: or just read the transcript :: smaller shudder ::. I'll get back to you on that.

No, no, no. I won't ask that of you. ;)


But the only reason I was asking about whether your reaction would have been different if you could stand Keller was because I know I react differently when a character I hate does something vs. a character I like doing a similar thing.

Take Ronon for example. I can't stand him. Which is why in First Contact his portrayal as Jennifer's "protector" combined with his irritating penchant to carry her bags and so forth aggravated me so much.

I see your point, but it's not like I'm defending McKay against Keller. I don't much like either character anymore (even though I used to like McKay in smaller doses). I have a couple I ship. I would be just as horrified if their first date turned out this way. Her telling him how he ought to behave, telling him to sit down and be quiet so as not to embarrass her. You can believe I'd be ranting at the TPTB for turning my favorites into a shrew and a fool.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 11:00 AM
But in my mind that makes it worse. She didn't accept a date with a charming man only to find to her dismay that he might not be what she expected. She's known him long enough to know exactly what she's getting into. If that's going to be a problem, then she shouldn't go on the date to begin with.

I don't think she necessarily saw it as a problema and I don't think it's something she can't live with. It's like any other flaw one may see in a friend or a partner. It's not something that breaks the relationship, but given the opportunity and the inclination of both people involved, it's something that you may like to see ammended.

He was obviously bothered by what he thought those people would think of him and she saw that. That's why he invited her afterall. I think she thought that if he tried to act less like the person those people remembered him as (aka arrogant and mean) than the whole trip might be easier for him.



Ouch. I hope we never see that Rodney again. I thought everyone involved in that episode came out looking petty and incompetent. Of course, that was before he discovered his great love for Keller -- up to that point it was just lust for both her and Carter.

Really? I rather liked the episode.



Why would he be rude and obnoxious to his teamates who have saved his life over and over again? Why berate the friend and colleague who's stood by his side many times? I'm seeing a man who changes his personality to suit what he thinks his woman of the moment wants to see. And no, I don't think we've seen him be sarcastic with Keller. I guess I missed it if we have. (And that's entirely possible. I do tend to fast forward a lot when Keller and McKay are around.)

I think here is where we get into PTB-whim territory. McKay is, afterall, only a character. TPTB will use the most basic McKay-type (the arrogant, cruel, mocking jerk) when they need to inject "humour" or some "funny" sarcastic line or McKay-ism into a scene.

To a point, it's what they think people expect to see of McKay and what keeps the character interesting.

You said it yourself, change him and he becomes as boring and mundane as Keller (in your opinion ;) )



No, no, no. I won't ask that of you. ;)

I knew I liked you for a reason. :p



I see your point, but it's not like I'm defending McKay against Keller. I don't much like either character anymore (even though I used to like McKay in smaller doses). I have a couple I ship. I would be just as horrified if their first date turned out this way. Her telling him how he ought to behave, telling him to sit down and be quiet so as not to embarrass her. You can believe I'd be ranting at the TPTB for turning my favorites into a shrew and a fool.

Again, and this might be my McKeller-shippyness shining through, I don't see it as Jennifer trying to keep him from embarrassing her. I honestly think she was doing it for his benefit.

Pandora's_Box
December 1st, 2008, 11:02 AM
Jennifer seems preoccupied with Rodney appearing less rude and obnoxious in the eyes of people that do not know him, as if it mattered. To Rodney, it doesn't matter if people dislike him if they do not know him. For Jennifer, this seems to matter, even for people other than herself.


Obviously it mattered to Rodney what these people thought of him. He asked Jennifer to go with him because it mattered to him what they thought.

He wouldn't have been so preoccupied with talking about what they would think of him if it didn't matter to him what they thought of him.

I think Jennifer recognised that and tried to make the experience easier for him.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 11:10 AM
Obviously it mattered to Rodney what these people thought of him. He asked Jennifer to go with him because it mattered to him what they thought.
I meant that it does not matter to him if people dislike him just because they've seen him be rude and snippy with people as long as they still respect him for his intellect and for what he can do. He also wanted to show them that wasn't a loser and that he could get a hot date, but did that mean he turned down the snark? No.

He doesn't care if they don't want to be his best friends. He just wants them to show him the respect his intellect deseves.


I think Jennifer recognised that and tried to make the experience easier for him.
I think the comment about her thinking it was strange for him to want credit for saving the day dispels this belief. She just doesn't understand him and wants him to be very "humble".

To the point of dullness.

Cautious Explorer
December 1st, 2008, 12:23 PM
I don't think she necessarily saw it as a problema and I don't think it's something she can't live with. It's like any other flaw one may see in a friend or a partner. It's not something that breaks the relationship, but given the opportunity and the inclination of both people involved, it's something that you may like to see ammended.

He was obviously bothered by what he thought those people would think of him and she saw that. That's why he invited her afterall. I think she thought that if he tried to act less like the person those people remembered him as (aka arrogant and mean) than the whole trip might be easier for him.

I think it comes down to temperament. Sometimes people just want to be reassured: I'll be there to support you; Don't worry, we know you're better than them, etc. Keller was trying to problem solve. If I were the one in that situation I wouldn't want my date to tell me what I could do differently to appease my detractors. I'd want someone to build me up and commisserate -- tell me those detractors aren't worth spit.



Really? I rather liked the episode.

You don't like Ronon, right? Imagine three Ronon's trapped in a hole in the ground. Yeah, that's how I feel about Trio.




I think here is where we get into PTB-whim territory. McKay is, afterall, only a character. TPTB will use the most basic McKay-type (the arrogant, cruel, mocking jerk) when they need to inject "humour" or some "funny" sarcastic line or McKay-ism into a scene.

To a point, it's what they think people expect to see of McKay and what keeps the character interesting.

You said it yourself, change him and he becomes as boring and mundane as Keller (in your opinion ;) )

I'll agree that it's a PTB problem. McKay used to have a middle ground. Slightly arrogant and sarcastic but not totally obnoxious and rude. We haven't seen that McKay in a while. That's the interesting McKay.



Again, and this might be my McKeller-shippyness shining through, I don't see it as Jennifer trying to keep him from embarrassing her. I honestly think she was doing it for his benefit.

Maybe it's a problem of Keller being just too normal. Everyone else on Atlantis, especially McKay's team, are unique to say the least. Ronon wouldn't have pulled at McKay to sit down, he would have been threatening and intimidating the scientists (and getting a laugh out of it too), Sheppard would have been bugging McKay just enough to get his mind off the other "geeks" and Teyla would have set about doing what she thought needed to be done without worrying over McKay's manners. They've been through so much together that there's very little that phases them. Keller's just so darn ordinary that she's intimidated by McKay making a scene over a life-threatening situation.

DragonLadyK
December 1st, 2008, 03:55 PM
Keller's just so darn ordinary that she's intimidated by McKay making a scene over a life-threatening situation.

Yes. Exactly. That's what's wrong with McKeller and Keller herself: ordinary has a place, and Atlantis is not it.

The other problem is that Keller tries to "temper" McKay by scolding, and the emphasis was on her sacrifices as reasons McKay needs to bend. It's a far cry from Sheppard's "aw, come on, Rawdnee" or Zelenka just refusing to give him the attention his outbursts are designed to attract. McKay treats Zelenka worse than anyone and yet Radek cares for him fiercely and consistently ("Tao," "Submersion," "The Hot Zone," "The Seige," "This Mortal Coil," BAMSR, "The Shrine" (he was only on for a second, but that man was about to bawl)), never once resorting to the superior talking-down Keller used in "Brain Storm."

Trying to change whole chunks of someone's personality to suit you isn't fair and it isn't love. Change should be a bonus, not an expectation.

Especially when some plagiarizing moron is about to turn on a device that could destroy the universe as we know it. At that point things as drastic as punching someone or shooting him become okay.

DragonLady

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 05:47 AM
The other problem is that Keller tries to "temper" McKay by scolding, and the emphasis was on her sacrifices as reasons McKay needs to bend. It's a far cry from Sheppard's "aw, come on, Rawdnee" or Zelenka just refusing to give him the attention his outbursts are designed to attract. McKay treats Zelenka worse than anyone and yet Radek cares for him fiercely and consistently ("Tao," "Submersion," "The Hot Zone," "The Seige," "This Mortal Coil," BAMSR, "The Shrine" (he was only on for a second, but that man was about to bawl)), never once resorting to the superior talking-down Keller used in "Brain Storm."

Trying to change whole chunks of someone's personality to suit you isn't fair and it isn't love. Change should be a bonus, not an expectation.


Here's where it gets sketchy for me. I agree with your last statement completely, but I'm still not convinced that's what Jennifer was intending to do.

The sketchy bit? I'm at a loss as to whether TPTB attempted to portray it your way and I'm just viewing everything through my rose-coloured shippy glasses, or if they actually meant Jennifer to be the way I see her.

And that's probably the problem. If you don't like her, you'll see the worst in her. If you do, it'll be harder to see the bad stuff. Or at the very least, you'll see it, but make excuses for it. :p

Then again, TPTB's portrayal of Jennifer has been spotty at best. She's the character that changes the most to suit the situation, so I can hardly tell sometimes what they actually meant for her to do or what's in line with her character.

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 05:51 AM
*raises hand*

It is in my humble opinion that Keller is indeed trying to change Rodney but that is not necessarily a negative thing...

It's the nature of life to adapt to it's surroundings...and when two people enter a relationship change is a necessary thing...it doesn't mean she doesn't love him for who he is...simply that he has growing to do...as does she

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 06:02 AM
*raises hand*

It is in my humble opinion that Keller is indeed trying to change Rodney but that is not necessarily a negative thing...

It's the nature of life to adapt to it's surroundings...and when two people enter a relationship change is a necessary thing...it doesn't mean she doesn't love him for who he is...simply that he has growing to do...as does she

Don't say crazy things like that!

Next thing you know, you-know-who will be on the rampage again, and it'll be all your fault!

But I agree.:D

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 06:03 AM
Should I get the pop corn again?

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 06:07 AM
I'll get the M&Ms.

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 06:09 AM
...Im a skittles man now....

You better not try to change me

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 06:11 AM
...Im a skittles man now....

You better not try to change me

Nonsense...you're just deluded and can't see the good stuff right in front of you.

Here, let me help you be a better person through M&M therapy...

:: launches a barrage of peanut M&Ms at sphinx ::

Are you a better person yet?

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 06:14 AM
Better? I dunno...if by better you mean have covered in melting chocolate candies and smelling like a diabetic's worst nightmare...then yes...I'm Scrooge at the end of the book better

DragonLadyK
December 2nd, 2008, 06:18 AM
And that's probably the problem. If you don't like her, you'll see the worst in her. If you do, it'll be harder to see the bad stuff. Or at the very least, you'll see it, but make excuses for it. :p

Then again, TPTB's portrayal of Jennifer has been spotty at best. She's the character that changes the most to suit the situation, so I can hardly tell sometimes what they actually meant for her to do or what's in line with her character.

Which is why I hate her: she's a terribly written mockery of the rules of narrative, and Staite isn't an independent enough actress to pull it off (like Joe F. does with Sheppard and Luttrell does with Teyla; they do what they do to make everything fit without much concrete direction telling them to do it).

Whether TPTB meant to make Keller look like a shrew is immaterial: to just about everyone who doesn't have rose-colored ship glasses, they did. They also made the Keller-haters hate her more, not less, because TPTB persist in breaking the rules of narrative that are there for a reason.

Ten minutes with "Mugging the Muse" and a half-hour of Google would really be all that is required to fix Keller, but TPTB don't do that much. I really don't think they have a vision of the character beyond "the very popular Jewel Staite plays her."

DragonLady

sweetsamurai
December 2nd, 2008, 08:51 AM
Yeah - I noticed the same thing through this terrible episode.

Why on earth does she like him if she constantly rolls her eyes at Rodney's behavior and quirks that make him so lovable?

I was completely on his side when he complained, rightly so, when that guy stole his work. She should support him.

She became all embarrassed when he wouldn't sign the confidential letter - I wanted to slap her.

I didn't mind Keller - but now she is just someone that needs to go enter shows like the OC and shows like that - go away.

That kiss was repulsive.

All the way through the episode she was his Mother - so that kiss was not cool to watch.

Madeleine
December 2nd, 2008, 10:04 AM
Here's an idea: maybe Rodney wants to be changed.

He seems to be acutely aware that while he's the braniest chap in the world or whatever, he's low in the pecking order when it comes to socialising and making friends. He might never have had anyone who cared to take the time to help him be more amenable, before. Or maybe he had in the days when he was too immature to know a good thing when he saw it, as many people are in their youth.

If he doesn't want to change, he can say, "stop trying to change me." If he doesn't say that, I'll be happy to assume that Rodney sees this as an opportunity to make his lot better.

FallenAngelII
December 2nd, 2008, 11:00 AM
Here's an idea: maybe Rodney wants to be changed.
Inconsequential. What's important here (and what's being discussed in this thread) is whether or not Jennifer truly loves Rodney and has done so "for a very long time", whether or not she's trying to change Rodney for his sake or for her own sake, to save herself the embarrassment of him "making scenes".

In other words, what's in question is what Jennifer is trying to do, her motives for it and her true feelings.

It does not matter whether or not Rodney wants it. After all, she never actually asked him whether or not he wants to change the way she wants him to change. She just flat out told him he should.

So whether he actually wants it is inconsequential, she would've tried to change him regardless. The question we're trying to answer is, thus:
Does she truly love him?

ponycake
December 2nd, 2008, 11:06 AM
Here's an idea: maybe Rodney wants to be changed.

He seems to be acutely aware that while he's the braniest chap in the world or whatever, he's low in the pecking order when it comes to socialising and making friends. He might never have had anyone who cared to take the time to help him be more amenable, before. Or maybe he had in the days when he was too immature to know a good thing when he saw it, as many people are in their youth.

If he doesn't want to change, he can say, "stop trying to change me." If he doesn't say that, I'll be happy to assume that Rodney sees this as an opportunity to make his lot better.

But I think this underpins the problem with this whole debate, that we speak about them as if they were real people with real motiviations. And maybe half the problem is that the writers haven't spelt it out enough about what is meant to be motivating these characters - they seem to have roleplayed it out in their heads and only half of it has landed in the script which means we're scrambling about trying to fill in the gaps. And we're filling them in according to our biases.

Do the writers want to use the character of Keller as an instrument in which to change the character of Rodney? Well, they'd be silly if they wanted to change the formula too much on what has made Rodney become largely a fan favourite. I mean Twu Wuv making someone a Better Man might be heartwarming in real life, but it doesn't mean that it necessarily makes for interesting television and the general television viewer probably isn't emotionally invested in the character of Rodney enough to find his path to A Life Fulfilling Romantic Harlequin Happy Ending all that big a deal. They want to be entertained and have space vampires and stuff blowing up. They want team and friendship and all the other things that have underpinned the series for the last four years.

And by 'they' I mean 'me', which is where bias creeps in. :D

talyn2k1
December 2nd, 2008, 11:24 AM
I haven't read the entire thread so apologies if I am repeating something someone else has already said...

I don't get why everyone is treating Keller trying to change Rodney as if it is something new and unusual. I'd love to hear from a guy in a long term relationship who can claim that his partner has never tried to change him.

Just because you want someone to change certain aspects of themselves, it doesn't mean you love them less!

Relationships involve both parties changing a little in order to accomodate the other. I doubt there is a relationship in history where both parties have been so perfectly matched that neither of them had to change in the slightest.

While we may wish that Keller would accept Rodney exactly as he is, it would take one extremely tolerant woman to accept him with all his failings. Change isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think Rodney would benefit from having someone talking in his ear and telling him to shut up when he is being an idiot.

Change happens in any relationship, why should McKeller be any different?

silvercomet
December 2nd, 2008, 11:25 AM
I wonder why exactly so many people are resistant to see the character of Rodney McKay change?

I mean, no one is perfect and as much as we all may love (or love to hate) the character, he isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination either. He's arrogant and proud, and while he may have a reason (being the foremost mind in 2 galaxies is a good reason) this doesn't mean that tempering this attitude would not be a good idea. He can be petty and mean and cruel, and for this there is often no excuse.

So I wonder, with all of his personality faults, why are people averse to seeing a woman who loves him attempt to make him a better person? There's nothing wrong with asking him to be more humble...a lot of people would do better by being more humble in general...or asking him to be more generous with people.

I wouldn't say I'm against a change. But, IMO Rodney has already changed so much since the beginning. If he changes more - especially in the way Keller apparently wants -, he won't be longer the character I really, really like. I don't want to see someone who is always just nice. Wouldn't this be boring? Where would be the fun in that? Well, for me anyway.

I was impressed with this sentence from a book I recently read: 'You can't live by other people's expectations, whether you love them or not.' I think that fits here.

During this whole episode I had the feeling Keller wanted to change his behaviour not for his sake, but only for hers. Of course this is a personal point of view. But for me that's the point why I dislike this romance even more.

And for his bad behaviour towards other people: his friends are able to look behind this mask and see what kind of person Rodney really is: honest, always there for his friends, not as confident as it seems and then some. For me he seems like a person who deep inside wants to be fancied by others for the person he is. Not for his achievements. And that's exactly what Keller isn't doing. And maybe I just think way too much about a fictional character. :P

silvercomet
December 2nd, 2008, 11:45 AM
I don't get why everyone is treating Keller trying to change Rodney as if it is something new and unusual. ?

Oh, it's not new or unusual. I just don't like it.


I'd love to hear from a guy in a long term relationship who can claim that his partner has never tried to change him.

Just because you want someone to change certain aspects of themselves, it doesn't mean you love them less!

Relationships involve both parties changing a little in order to accomodate the other. I doubt there is a relationship in history where both parties have been so perfectly matched that neither of them had to change in the slightest.

While we may wish that Keller would accept Rodney exactly as he is, it would take one extremely tolerant woman to accept him with all his failings. Change isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think Rodney would benefit from having someone talking in his ear and telling him to shut up when he is being an idiot.

Change happens in any relationship, why should McKeller be any different?

Yes, I used to want and try to change my partner, too. Needless to say that this relationship is history? Well, I was about twenty-x so maybe it's really an age issue. These days I know I get what I see. There isn't a 'yes I love you, but'. That doesn't mean I have to like everything.

I don't think the Keller thing is about changing a little in order to accomodate each other. For me it's about changing Rodney's personality. And that can't turn out all right. Maybe at the beginning when he wants to impress her. But I don't believe a person can really change his personality to a high degree. So the question is: does Keller love the kind of person who Rodney is or does she love a picture she has in her mind? And again, I believe the latter.

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 01:15 PM
Here's an idea: maybe Rodney wants to be changed.


I think that's definitely a valid consideration and I wouldn't toss it out. We know Rodney knows he's not very good at the social thing. Maybe he wants to be? Why is that a bad thing?

I don't think it's a bad thing.


Inconsequential. What's important here (and what's being discussed in this thread) is whether or not Jennifer truly loves Rodney and has done so "for a very long time", whether or not she's trying to change Rodney for his sake or for her own sake, to save herself the embarrassment of him "making scenes".


Your complete disregard for the opinions of others continues to astound me. I don't know why, but it does.

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 04:14 PM
Your complete disregard for the opinions of others continues to astound me. I don't know why, but it does.

Sassy much?

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 04:18 PM
Sassy much?

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 04:19 PM
Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Oh not at all...the opposite in fact

Pandora's_Box
December 2nd, 2008, 04:19 PM
I don't think the Keller thing is about changing a little in order to accomodate each other. For me it's about changing Rodney's personality. And that can't turn out all right. Maybe at the beginning when he wants to impress her. But I don't believe a person can really change his personality to a high degree. So the question is: does Keller love the kind of person who Rodney is or does she love a picture she has in her mind? And again, I believe the latter.

I'm curious as to why. What, that we've seen on the show and of their interactions, has given you the impression that Keller loves a Rodney that only exists in her head?

Shpinxinator
December 2nd, 2008, 04:23 PM
Oh, it's not new or unusual. I just don't like it.



Yes, I used to want and try to change my partner, too. Needless to say that this relationship is history? Well, I was about twenty-x so maybe it's really an age issue. These days I know I get what I see. There isn't a 'yes I love you, but'. That doesn't mean I have to like everything.

I don't think the Keller thing is about changing a little in order to accomodate each other. For me it's about changing Rodney's personality. And that can't turn out all right. Maybe at the beginning when he wants to impress her. But I don't believe a person can really change his personality to a high degree. So the question is: does Keller love the kind of person who Rodney is or does she love a picture she has in her mind? And again, I believe the latter.



So...you believe when two people enter a relationship theres should be no growth of change period?

ponycake
December 2nd, 2008, 04:35 PM
So...you believe when two people enter a relationship theres should be no growth of change period?

Do you mean in real life (obviously yes, people will change, to what extent is dependant on the individual) or whether in the construct of the show (depends on whether you want character x to be written differently)?

Isn't this what it's all about - whether we want character x to remain the same or whether we're happy for the writing formula to change and give us something different on our screens? Personal choice, that's all it is. I prefer OldSkool!Rodney, that person over there might prefer Romance!Rodney, it's all in the eye of the shipper/gener beholder.

I would argue that the new direction hasn't been value added enough to make up for the fact that they've changed the shows direction and feel, and left some people wondering what happened to the show and the characters that they once loved. Other people might not see any real difference. Other people might think it's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm not happy, but since the ratings don't seem to have been unduly affected then obviously I'm most likely in the minority. Eh.

silvercomet
December 2nd, 2008, 11:07 PM
I'm curious as to why. What, that we've seen on the show and of their interactions, has given you the impression that Keller loves a Rodney that only exists in her head?

The main reason: for most of the parts in 'Brain Storm' I was shocked (yes, I think this is the right word) that Keller radiated how embarrassed she felt. I hadn't the feeling she was embarrassed for Rodney. Meaning she wanted to protect him, because the others might think he is just an idiot. For me she was embarrassed because of Rodney/his behaviour. She looked like a person who wished she were miles away from that situation.

I just think I can't be embarrassed about a person I love. That doesn't mean I have to like everything - i.e. the behaviour in specific situations or maybe the way one dresses. But this person is an adult and I'm not his mother. I'm not responsible for another person/for his personality. No need for me to be embarrassed.

And there's still this point for me: If she wanted to just support him, she would (could) have acted in a different way. Like some other people here described in their posts.

This romance just doesn't work for me the way it's written.


So...you believe when two people enter a relationship theres should be no growth of change period?

No, I don't say this in this global meaning. I've changed in my life. Not only in relationships. And I might do that in the future, too. But I only changed things I wanted to change. Because I didn't like them myself or thought they were not quite right (like my try to change my boyfriend ;)). But I've never changed and won't do so because another person wants to change me. I believe this wouldn't work. Maybe just for a short period but not forever.

Another person can show me that there are different ways of doing something or behaving. If this is a person who is important for me, I surely would think about that. And then I decide whether I share this opinion/point of view and try to change - or not. But if this person says 'I want you to change' (I don't say Keller did this so blatantly in BS, it's my own interpretation) - no, this won't happen. (Yes, I have a stubborn personality ;))



I hope I express myself fairly understandable - english still isn't my mother tongue.

Blencathra
December 2nd, 2008, 11:21 PM
Some posts here reminded me of something. I wracked by brains and then it dawned on me. Check out this clip.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=klVevwoR7b0

"Yes Jennifer" ???? :D

FallenAngelII
December 3rd, 2008, 09:47 AM
Your complete disregard for the opinions of others continues to astound me. I don't know why, but it does.
It's not a disregarding of an opinion. It's declaring a point of discussion inconsequential since it's not actually being discussed in this thread.

This thread was brought up to discuss a specific thing. To steer the argument onto a similar track but which is not the one being discussed and which no one is actually arguing is practically strawmanning. It's also going off topic.

And it's not an opinion. It's a theory.

Madeleine W argued: "Here's an idea: maybe Rodney wants to be changed."
My reponse was: That belongs in another discussion.

It's like if we were debating Ancient shields and all of a sudden someone brought up Ancient weapons. Connected issues, but not what we're discussing.


I'm curious as to why. What, that we've seen on the show and of their interactions, has given you the impression that Keller loves a Rodney that only exists in her head?
The amount of change she's trying to instill in him on their first date?

Shpinxinator
December 3rd, 2008, 11:26 PM
The amount of change she's trying to instill in him on their first date?


Thats a fair point but thats assuming that is their first date....they could have gone on some off screen.

jelgate
December 4th, 2008, 04:23 AM
Thats a fair point but thats assuming that is their first date....they could have gone on some off screen.You would be right if Keller hadn't said this had been their first date

Pandora's_Box
December 4th, 2008, 08:19 AM
The amount of change she's trying to instill in him on their first date?

"First date" was a formality. He'd already expressed his love for her, she probably already knew she cared for him deeply, and they'd both been through a lot together.

Those are hardly the emotional makings for a typical first date.

Lucylee
December 4th, 2008, 08:32 AM
"First date" was a formality. He'd already expressed his love for her, she probably already knew she cared for him deeply, and they'd both been through a lot together.

Those are hardly the emotional makings for a typical first date.

I thought at the beginning of the episode Shep was wondering if Rodney had "made a move" yet so I think it was the first date. I don't think Rodney knew she had seen him declare his love earlier.

Pandora's_Box
December 4th, 2008, 08:37 AM
I thought at the beginning of the episode Shep was wondering if Rodney had "made a move" yet so I think it was the first date. I don't think Rodney knew she had seen him declare his love earlier.

I'm not saying it wasn't their first date. My point was that we're not talking about two people who barely knew each other before going on this date. We're talking about two people who know each other very, very well and care for each other deeply.

So this whole business of "How dare she be so forward with Rodney on their first date" is nonsense because the only reason people are normally cautious with partners on the first date is because they don't know the other person. That is clearly not the case here.

Cautious Explorer
December 4th, 2008, 08:54 AM
I'm not saying it wasn't their first date. My point was that we're not talking about two people who barely knew each other before going on this date. We're talking about two people who know each other very, very well and care for each other deeply.

So this whole business of "How dare she be so forward with Rodney on their first date" is nonsense because the only reason people are normally cautious with partners on the first date is because they don't know the other person. That is clearly not the case here.

I see your point, but I'm not convinced that the show has given us much evidence that they have that kind of strong, caring relationship. Most of the buildup I recall happened in The Shrine when Rodney was mentally altered.

It also leaves me confused as to why McKay was so timid and hesitant in inviting her on the date in the first place. I didn't get the impression they'd spent much time together at all.

FallenAngelII
December 4th, 2008, 10:05 AM
Thats a fair point but thats assuming that is their first date....they could have gone on some off screen.
That would be a fair point had Jennifer not expressively called it their first date.


"First date" was a formality. He'd already expressed his love for her, she probably already knew she cared for him deeply, and they'd both been through a lot together.

Those are hardly the emotional makings for a typical first date.
They've hardly been through a lot together. They barely know each other. We've never seen them spend any time together outside of emergencies and a few episodes, like "Tracker".

John expressively says Rodney had yet to "make a move" and from everything we've seen insofar, it seems like neither had approached the other "in that way" yet.

In fact, I think this was the first episode in which we saw both people in a conversation in the commissionary (on their own), ever.

All in all, you can assume whatever you want to assume to rationalize her behavior. But from what we've seen and what we know, this was their first prolonged exposure to each other outside mortal danger ("Tracker") and their first time spending any significant bonding time together. It was their first outing together, their first date.

They barely knew each other on a deeper level, they were still getting to know each other. And the first thing she wants to do is change him.

Rachel500
December 4th, 2008, 12:06 PM
There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.

And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.

If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.

Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.

Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.

No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

I've read through the thread and decided I'd just respond to the original post.

Firstly, I think the concept that a couple should love each other unconditionally to be unrealistic. True unconditional romantic love exists mostly as an ideal and is very rare in coupledom. Coupledom more often than not tends to be a constant compromise and give/take around behaviour and habits - especially more mature relationships. Really wedding vows should be more along the lines of 'I do solemnly swear to put the toilet seat up if you stop squeezing the toothpaste from the middle of the tube...' and 'I do solemnly swear not to talk through the football if you tolerate my Auntie Mable coming to dinner once a month..' Most of the best couple relationships I know are great because they compromise and they accept the need to compromise.

What I saw in Brain Storm is the beginning of that compromising rather than Jennifer trying to actually change him.

Rodney is multi-layered as a character; the arrogance, professional jealousies, moaning and sarcasm are part of who he is but underneath this outer defensive shell is actually a very loyal, insecure man who cares deeply for his friends and for Jennifer.

I think Jennifer knows that's who he is and who she has fallen in love with flaws and all.

In Brain Storm, it's their first date and Jennifer doesn't want to spend it with a McKay who's acting jealous, sarcastic and in a bad mood. She just wants him to enjoy their time together and not focus on his professional jealousies. She has compromised in that their first date is going to be a physics conference in which she has little interest and where her only function is to be 'eye-candy' so asking Rodney to compromise and set aside his initial defensive reactions about Tunney's behaviour and focus on the date, I don't think is out of the realms of unreasonable requests nor do I think it is a request for Rodney to fundamentally change who he is.

Conversely if it hadn't been a first date, if she had simply gone along as a friend to support him, then I would say some of her 'stop whining, relax and just enjoy it' would have constituted a lack of understanding of who Rodney really is as I think in the role of supportive friend one could argue that she should have known Rodney would react that way.

But given the context that it is a date, I think it is just a simple plea for him to set aside the things that are making him unhappy and enjoy their time together.

Do I think she's right to shush him in the middle of the presentation? I tend to think it's a natural reaction when someone you care about steps up to do something that you know is going to end badly for them to want to stop them. Would it have been nice to have seen her be more supportive and stand up for him? Yes but Keller as a character isn't really all that confident and making a public scene is probably one of her own fears - she isn't perfect either.

Again, at the end in the plane, I do think she was mainly trying to encourage Rodney to look on the positive side and again, enjoy their time together; I don't think she meant to dismiss his want for credit as being either incorrect or unimportant. When he made it clear it was important to him who got credit, she accepted it, let it go and tried an alternative tack to get his attention so they could enjoy their date.

So do I think she's trying to change him or doesn't love him for who he is? No. What I think she was doing was making an effort to set aside his professional jealousy and encourage him to just enjoy their date so she could enjoy it too.

s09119
December 4th, 2008, 03:36 PM
I've read through the thread and decided I'd just respond to the original post.

Firstly, I think the concept that a couple should love each other unconditionally to be unrealistic. True unconditional romantic love exists mostly as an ideal and is very rare in coupledom. Coupledom more often than not tends to be a constant compromise and give/take around behaviour and habits - especially more mature relationships. Really wedding vows should be more along the lines of 'I do solemnly swear to put the toilet seat up if you stop squeezing the toothpaste from the middle of the tube...' and 'I do solemnly swear not to talk through the football if you tolerate my Auntie Mable coming to dinner once a month..' Most of the best couple relationships I know are great because they compromise and they accept the need to compromise.

What I saw in Brain Storm is the beginning of that compromising rather than Jennifer trying to actually change him.

Rodney is multi-layered as a character; the arrogance, professional jealousies, moaning and sarcasm are part of who he is but underneath this outer defensive shell is actually a very loyal, insecure man who cares deeply for his friends and for Jennifer.

I think Jennifer knows that's who he is and who she has fallen in love with flaws and all.

In Brain Storm, it's their first date and Jennifer doesn't want to spend it with a McKay who's acting jealous, sarcastic and in a bad mood. She just wants him to enjoy their time together and not focus on his professional jealousies. She has compromised in that their first date is going to be a physics conference in which she has little interest and where her only function is to be 'eye-candy' so asking Rodney to compromise and set aside his initial defensive reactions about Tunney's behaviour and focus on the date, I don't think is out of the realms of unreasonable requests nor do I think it is a request for Rodney to fundamentally change who he is.

Conversely if it hadn't been a first date, if she had simply gone along as a friend to support him, then I would say some of her 'stop whining, relax and just enjoy it' would have constituted a lack of understanding of who Rodney really is as I think in the role of supportive friend one could argue that she should have known Rodney would react that way.

But given the context that it is a date, I think it is just a simple plea for him to set aside the things that are making him unhappy and enjoy their time together.

Do I think she's right to shush him in the middle of the presentation? I tend to think it's a natural reaction when someone you care about steps up to do something that you know is going to end badly for them to want to stop them. Would it have been nice to have seen her be more supportive and stand up for him? Yes but Keller as a character isn't really all that confident and making a public scene is probably one of her own fears - she isn't perfect either.

Again, at the end in the plane, I do think she was mainly trying to encourage Rodney to look on the positive side and again, enjoy their time together; I don't think she meant to dismiss his want for credit as being either incorrect or unimportant. When he made it clear it was important to him who got credit, she accepted it, let it go and tried an alternative tack to get his attention so they could enjoy their date.

So do I think she's trying to change him or doesn't love him for who he is? No. What I think she was doing was making an effort to set aside his professional jealousy and encourage him to just enjoy their date so she could enjoy it too.

Enjoy your green. Excellent post.

FallenAngelII
December 5th, 2008, 12:12 AM
Firstly, I think the concept that a couple should love each other unconditionally to be unrealistic. True unconditional romantic love exists mostly as an ideal and is very rare in coupledom.
I never said it wasn't rare. I said that this shows that it's not unconditional love. And most probably not true love at all if there's so much about Rodney she wants to see changed.


Most of the best couple relationships I know are great because they compromise and they accept the need to compromise.
Yes, but those people have been together for a long time. They didn't just go on their first date after apparently months of "loving the other", yet spending little time with each other and not knowing very much about each other.


What I saw in Brain Storm is the beginning of that compromising rather than Jennifer trying to actually change him.
on the first date...


Rodney is multi-layered as a character; the arrogance, professional jealousies, moaning and sarcasm are part of who he is but underneath this outer defensive shell is actually a very loyal, insecure man who cares deeply for his friends and for Jennifer.
But does Jennifer even know this?


I think Jennifer knows that's who he is and who she has fallen in love with flaws and all.
First date... let's change him!


In Brain Storm, it's their first date and Jennifer doesn't want to spend it with a McKay who's acting jealous, sarcastic and in a bad mood.
He's acting jealous?

Also, let's not ignore Jennifer's facial expressions and her embarrassment over Rodney "making scenes", even when he was merely trying to prevent catastrophe (and he was right).


She just wants him to enjoy their time together and not focus on his professional jealousies.
Explain the "Sit down!"-scene.


She has compromised in that their first date is going to be a physics conference in which she has little interest and where her only function is to be 'eye-candy' so asking Rodney to compromise and set aside his initial defensive reactions about Tunney's behaviour and focus on the date, I don't think is out of the realms of unreasonable requests nor do I think it is a request for Rodney to fundamentally change who he is.
You call this equal compromise to trying to change deep-seating aspects of Rodney's personality?


Conversely if it hadn't been a first date, if she had simply gone along as a friend to support him, then I would say some of her 'stop whining, relax and just enjoy it' would have constituted a lack of understanding of who Rodney really is as I think in the role of supportive friend one could argue that she should have known Rodney would react that way.
Key word = First date

They barely know each other. She barely knows anything about his background, his childhood, his professional life, his Earth life from what we learn from this episode.

It's astounding not only that she can have "loved [him] for a very long time" but that she'd know him well enough to know his true self and be justified in trying to change him.


But given the context that it is a date, I think it is just a simple plea for him to set aside the things that are making him unhappy and enjoy their time together.
She specifically tells him he should stop doing/being this and this, not just to let it go for the date.


Do I think she's right to shush him in the middle of the presentation? I tend to think it's a natural reaction when someone you care about steps up to do something that you know is going to end badly for them to want to stop them.
Only she knew there was a reason for him wanting to do it. She was there on Atlantis when a matter bridge malfunctioned. If she really knows Rodney, she knows that when he stands up to interrupt someone looking all panicked like that, something bad is going to happen.

And it wasn't just her initial reaction. She kept trying to drag him down, as if she was afraid his behavior would reflect badly on her.


Would it have been nice to have seen her be more supportive and stand up for him? Yes but Keller as a character isn't really all that confident and making a public scene is probably one of her own fears - she isn't perfect either.
She didn't have to do anything. Rodney was doing all the work. All she had to do was stay back.


Again, at the end in the plane, I do think she was mainly trying to encourage Rodney to look on the positive side and again, enjoy their time together; I don't think she meant to dismiss his want for credit as being either incorrect or unimportant.
RODNEY: Blah blah, I'm not getting the credit I deserve.
KELLER: Rodney, does it really matter?

I don't view this as her trying to view it from the positive side and enjoy their time together, at all. She's bewildered he wants credit.

Rodney then explains that he does want credit for the important work he does. Jennifer jokingly tells him to quit and go into the private sector.

Nowhere in that conversation do I read "Relax, enjoy your time with me".


So do I think she's trying to change him or doesn't love him for who he is? No. What I think she was doing was making an effort to set aside his professional jealousy and encourage him to just enjoy their date so she could enjoy it too.
Only his professional jealousy wasn't all she was trying to change. And it wasn't all in the name of enjoying their date more.

And why should he change and compromise so much just so they can "enjoy their date more"? It's just their first date, one of supposedly many.

They've supposedly loved each other "for a very long time" the both of them. Compromise here would be for her to suck it up and let him have his moment of infrequent (in the context) glory and enjoy their date as much as they can anyway and look forward for the next one instead of constantly trying to "reign him in" and having him "enjoy their date more".

Rachel500
December 5th, 2008, 01:20 AM
I never said it wasn't rare. I said that this shows that it's not unconditional love. And most probably not true love at all if there's so much about Rodney she wants to see changed.

<snipped just because>

They've supposedly loved each other "for a very long time" the both of them. Compromise here would be for her to suck it up and let him have his moment of infrequent (in the context) glory and enjoy their date as much as they can anyway and look forward for the next one instead of constantly trying to "reign him in" and having him "enjoy their date more".

In summary, I believe your argument is based on the assumptions that Keller hasn't spent any time getting to know the real Rodney, can't really love him and therefore wants to change him as 'evidenced' by her actions throughout the episode of her asking him not to be negative or not make a scene or to not worry about getting the credit even though these are natural Rodney traits.

My argument is based on the assumption that Keller has spent enough time with him during the past two years to know Rodney even if they haven't been officially 'dating.' Moreover, I interpret her behaviour in the context of the date as simply wanting Rodney not focus on his professional insecurities and just enjoy their date and spending time together. She knew it was natural for him to go to the negative place but was asking him because they were on a date to compromise and focus on the positive. Compromise begins right at the beginning of a relationship - it doesn't just magically happen once two people have been together for a long time.

Neither of us is right or wrong in the context of what's on screen. You have your interpretation; I have mine.

FallenAngelII
December 5th, 2008, 06:42 AM
Neither of us is right or wrong in the context of what's on screen. You have your interpretation; I have mine.
Exactly. While I do view your interpretation as a bit reaching as I find little on-screen indication of it and my interpretation to be quite fitting with Jennifer's known traits or whining, self-centeredness, it is not actually wrong or too much of a stretch.

We can only agree to disagree here.

Madeleine
December 5th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Inconsequential. What's important here (and what's being discussed in this thread) is whether or not Jennifer truly loves Rodney and has done so "for a very long time", whether or not she's trying to change Rodney for his sake or for her own sake, to save herself the embarrassment of him "making scenes".

In other words, what's in question is what Jennifer is trying to do, her motives for it and her true feelings.

It does not matter whether or not Rodney wants it. After all, she never actually asked him whether or not he wants to change the way she wants him to change. She just flat out told him he should.

So whether he actually wants it is inconsequential, she would've tried to change him regardless. The question we're trying to answer is, thus:
Does she truly love him?

You said in the opening post: "And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies."

I think that it's perfectly understandable that Rodney, who has often found himself missing the required pitch by a crucial tone or two, might want to change just a little to please someone he respects and trusts. He'll reap the benfit himself, as well as pleasing his squeeze.

As to Keller and what she feels, I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'love'. Some people mean warm fuzzy feelings, desire, emotions etc. I tend to see 'love' as wanting what is best for someone else and caring more for their happiness than your own.

From my point of view, if Keller and Rodney have enough affection and trust and respect to be able to make critical comments or suggestions to each without causing offence, then nudging the other towards a better state of social competence is in no way incompatible with unconditional love.

Rachel500
December 5th, 2008, 01:23 PM
Exactly. While I do view your interpretation as a bit reaching as I find little on-screen indication of it and my interpretation to be quite fitting with Jennifer's known traits or whining, self-centeredness, it is not actually wrong or too much of a stretch.

We can only agree to disagree here.



Exactly. While I view your interpretation as a bit reaching as I find little indication of it in the context of the story and indeed the arc, and my interpretation to be quite fitting within the same, it is not actually wrong.

As you say; we can only agree to disagree here.

Rac80
December 5th, 2008, 05:20 PM
what intelligent woman wouldn't want to change mckay??? (rhetorical question only!) THIS one would insist on it! (ok I admit I could never date a jerk like him! thank heavens all of the "dating" is far, far behind me! ;))

Willow'sCat
December 5th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Staite isn't listed in the IMDB for the Atlantis movie in 2009! *claps hands in joy* So maybe we won't have to see her! :)
I think you will find none of the actors have signed anything yet. IMDB is as reliable a source as a random fan on the internet.... which is usually who puts the info in anyway. :P



what intelligent woman wouldn't want to change mckay?This one. ;):) I prefer him as himself.

As a fan told David Hewlett before he started playing McKay in SGA.... don't change him. Word.

Well TPTB have fraked him up... and this ship just adds to the frak. McKay as a character was better in season one, then again so was the TEAM as Ford was there and not some neanderthal like Ronon :cool:

For me all this.... this 'change' is not growth it is covering tracks, TPTB have no idea how to develop characters so they throw people at one and other. Marty G really disappoints me atm. :cool:

I am so glad the show is cancelled as it just gets worse and worse. Only killing Keller off now would make me watch the movie... well in a hurry anyway.

nx01a
December 6th, 2008, 06:57 AM
Sadly, while I agree with the assessment of Ronon as a proto-human thug, he's far more interesting than the Rainbow, who really never rose above token black man status and couldn't even be made consistently interesting with an alien drug addiction.

DragonLadyK
December 6th, 2008, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by Rac80
what intelligent woman wouldn't want to change mckay?

This one. ;):) I prefer him as himself.

I prefer McKay as McKay -- snark and insecurities and all -- myself as well.

Personally, I can't imagine what intelligent man would want to date Keller after that sort of behavior. That's the kind of argument that goes both ways. ~.^

DragonLady

GateFanSamJack
December 6th, 2008, 01:29 PM
You can disagree with someone but not be trying to change them.

Sometimes, people who are socially awkward need someone to state plainly how their mannerisms are coming off because part of the problem is that they truly don't know. She's not making her attention contingent on him doing something about it. They have matter of fact conversations about it and that's very mature and healthy.

WolfenM
December 6th, 2008, 01:53 PM
In my opinion, every instance she chastised him in Brain Storm, he was not doing anything wrong/deserving of being chastised. She should have stood up to Nye and Tyson when they were putting him down and she didn't. He was worried for the safety of everyone in the that building, and instead of letting him inform them of the danger they were in, she acted embarrased and tried to get him to shut up. After everyone started leaving the room, instead of listening to what he had to say. she told him to drop it and get cocoa. He just said everyone's life was in danger, and she's rather have cocoa than trust him/hear him out. WTF? Safety is more important!! She doesn't know him so well if she couldn't sense that he was genuinely terrified there and not being arrogant.

And when he was arrogant, Rodney was no worse than anyone in that room, but she thinks he should just take the abuse and let others take credit for his work rather than stand up for himself? She thinks it's okay to let Tunney, who almost killed them all, take the credit and let Rodney stay unnoticed? I'm glad he told her, when she asked if it really mattered if he got the recognition, because IMNSHO, it *does*, and he had every right to be hurt/bitter. He told her he would work better without the others holding him back, and in the end, he *did*. The only reason it wasn't ultimately him that did what needed to be done was because he left to save her -- he could have done it without Tunney, but Tunney couldn't do it without his idea & code. He was *right*.

Also, in "Last Man", she begged him not to try to change time for *her* sake -- but what about everyone *else's*? His gift is the most improtant thing in his life, and she didn't want him to *use* it to save everyone in Pegasus?? She had no confidence that he could do it and make things right for everyone -- which would erase those years he would have "wasted" working on it. And only an idiot signs something without reading it -- because of her pressuring, Rodney signed that non-disclosure agreement, which was obviously a mistake. We're lucky he didn't listen to her when she told him not to try to change time. Ergo, she's a bad influence.

If Rodney's to change, I want him to do it because *he* realises something is the right thing to do, not because he feels Keller would want him to do it. It's not an honest, true change then, and the person doing the changing never *fully*/truly changes it if they're doing it out of expectation rather their own personal, EARNED sense of right. I don't want to see better behavior handed to him by someone else -- I want to see him work through it on his own (and only in instances where he actually *is* wrong -- he *should* get praise for his own work! Being denied his rightful recognition is as unfair as getting denied a paycheck!)

Keller is a secondary character; secondary characters should not "show up" or drastically alter main characters. They certainly should not make them look like misbehaving little boys and talk to them like they are their mommy when they are supposed to be *equals*.

I discuss it scene-by-scene in my column. http://www.pinkraygun.com/2008/12/06/stargate-atlantis-brain-storm/

silvercomet
December 6th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Coupledom more often than not tends to be a constant compromise and give/take around behaviour and habits - especially more mature relationships. Really wedding vows should be more along the lines of 'I do solemnly swear to put the toilet seat up if you stop squeezing the toothpaste from the middle of the tube...' and 'I do solemnly swear not to talk through the football if you tolerate my Auntie Mable coming to dinner once a month..' Most of the best couple relationships I know are great because they compromise and they accept the need to compromise.

I can agree with that. But don't you think it's a difference between the things you listed and trying to change someones personality?




Do I think she's right to shush him in the middle of the presentation? I tend to think it's a natural reaction when someone you care about steps up to do something that you know is going to end badly for them to want to stop them.

In the end it's really all a personal point of view. I would have been proud to be there with someone like him. A person who isn't afraid of saying the truth. Who doesn't bite his tongue just because all the others have another opinion.

A person like Keller was just embarrassed. :(


As to Keller and what she feels, I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'love'. Some people mean warm fuzzy feelings, desire, emotions etc. I tend to see 'love' as wanting what is best for someone else and caring more for their happiness than your own.

But isn't that an arrogant way of thinking, that someone knows what's the best for another person? :S

And I had the feeling Keller was more concerned about her own happiness...


what intelligent woman wouldn't want to change mckay??? (rhetorical question only!)

Rhetorical or not: *wave here* Me. He's not an easy person to deal with, but I like him. :D


In my opinion, every instance she chastised him in Brain Storm, he <I>was not doing anything wrong/deserving of being chastised</I>. She should have stood up to Nye and Tyson when they were putting him down and she didn't.
*snip for length*

I agree.

Madeleine
December 6th, 2008, 03:19 PM
But isn't that an arrogant way of thinking, that someone knows what's the best for another person? :S

Sometimes. But if you take that thinking too far, you come to a point where no one ever offers help, makes suggestions, gives legitimate criticism or anything.

I think there's a happy medium to be found :)

silvercomet
December 6th, 2008, 03:27 PM
Sometimes. But if you take that thinking too far, you come to a point where no one ever offers help, makes suggestions, gives legitimate criticism or anything.

I think there's a happy medium to be found :)

That's all right with me. :) I just have a problem when someone tells me what I have to do as an exclusive fact. ;)

GateFanSamJack
December 8th, 2008, 06:26 AM
Her comments would only be manipulative if she honestly thought he would be pressured by them. Rodney does his own thing and she knows that. The comments are neutral as far as pressure goes. They're just extra data for him to take or leave otherwise. If he took them and changed something about himself, it would be pressure-free. She threw herself at him just AFTER he made his "something you should know about me" comment. That's just the opposite of what a manipulative person would do.

If she were the type to normally make a lot of comments, but refrained during the development stage of a relationship, then I'd be worried about her.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 08:17 AM
"What is love?"
Rodney is 40+. Jennifer is, um, 25 or something, I'm assuming.

Jennifer specifically said "I've been in love with you for a very long time". Even at 25, I'd think she'd be intelligent enough to not say something like that if it's just "warm, fuzzy feelings".

Love is love. It has a definition. To be in love with someone is something deeper than just warm fuzzies.

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 08:20 AM
In my opinion, every instance she chastised him in Brain Storm, he was not doing anything wrong/deserving of being chastised. She should have stood up to Nye and Tyson when they were putting him down and she didn't. He was worried for the safety of everyone in the that building, and instead of letting him inform them of the danger they were in, she acted embarrased and tried to get him to shut up.
My point exactly. She seemed to just not want to be embarrassed when Rodney was obviously trying to save the lives of everyone in the facility.

She immediately tried to get him to sit down and just looked uncomfortable. Meanwhile, she let the other people do as they pleased. It wasn't by the end where she chastised everyone for being immature in the face of danger.

But to Rodney, every little thing he did that could possible embarrass her, she was on his back. The other ridiculing him and implying he couldn't possibly get a date as hot as Jennifer, oh, she just "let it slide", not standing up for her man despite him being obviously uncomfortable.

Where was the love then?

Rac80
December 11th, 2008, 08:27 AM
My point exactly. She seemed to just not want to be embarrassed when Rodney was obviously trying to save the lives of everyone in the facility.

She immediately tried to get him to sit down and just looked uncomfortable. Meanwhile, she let the other people do as they pleased. It wasn't by the end where she chastised everyone for being immature in the face of danger.

But to Rodney, every little thing he did that could possible embarrass her, she was on his back. The other ridiculing him and implying he couldn't possibly get a date as hot as Jennifer, oh, she just "let it slide", not standing up for her man despite him being obviously uncomfortable.

Where was the love then?


yep you nailed it there. What woman wants a man she feels embarrasses her, she either needs to accept him as is (unlikey!) or simply dump him (and go back to Ronon begging his forgiveness! ;)) Katie brown didn't seem to mind mckay being mckay (tolerant woman that she is!)

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 10:05 AM
yep you nailed it there. What woman wants a man she feels embarrasses her, she either needs to accept him as is (unlikey!) or simply dump him (and go back to Ronon begging his forgiveness! ;)) Katie brown didn't seem to mind mckay being mckay (tolerant woman that she is!)
Exactly.

People have droned on and on about how she just wanted to turn him into a better man or to have him relax and enjoy his date with her more. To me (and many others, apparently) it looked more like her just not wanting to be embarrassed by her date.

And that's not a good reason to expect them to change their personality for you. And that's not really love, either. "I've been in love with you for a very long time... if I overlook these aspects of your personality which I dislike because they could embarrass me in front of other people... and we can't have that!".

captainpash
January 8th, 2009, 07:47 AM
Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here people. When you are on a date, and you do something embarrassing ie standing up in the middle of a presentation, you embarrass your date. Of course, she was rolling her eyes and looking embarrassed. It was because she was embarrassed. Now the whole wanting to change him from being an arrogant prick. I like Rodney as a character he is funny, and usually says what he means. But if you've ever actually known a person like that it's very annoying, and usually leads to points of contention. Now, I've never dated someone who was as arrogant or as annoying as Rodney can be, but I do know that if you expect someone to put up with you for a long amount of time you have to give and take. Which is all she was asking. Sure it might be changing him, but that's what his friends, his sister, and basically everyone else wants. Loving someone means you love them as they are sure, but no one in the world is going to put up with Rodney the way he is. He has to try to be nicer. That's just how it works.

Madeleine
January 8th, 2009, 03:59 PM
...give and take. Which is all she was asking.

Yup.

And what is more, she was upfront about it: I've come to this rather peculiar sort of date for your sake, you can put in a commesurate effort for my sake

Nothing manipulative or sneaky.

rushy
September 14th, 2012, 03:50 AM
Everyone else on Atlantis seems to not want him to change. They know that his "arrogance" isn't really arrogance at all since his high image of himself is 100% correct. He is just that intelligent.

Rodney shouldn't want to be changed. If his personality puts some people off, then so be it. If people will let first impressions shape their entire relationship with someone, then they're not worth your time.

Not everyone has to be friends.
95% right. He does fail a few times.
But Keller is a good match for Rodney, no matter what the changes.