PDA

View Full Version : possible flaw?



stargater1990
November 19th, 2008, 03:17 PM
okay, well in SGU the premis is that the destiny flys through the universe and connects to stargates previously placed on suitable worlds by another ship. well one of the twists is that they cant control the ship and if anyone gets left behind, they're stuck. well wouldnt the stranded person just be able to dial the stargate one after another untill they catch up with the destiny?

the only reason they wouldnt be able to do this is if the destiny jumps from one galaxy to another and if that were the case they wouldnt be able to dial the next galaxy over to catch up but galaxys are typicaly big places and it would be a litle unrealistic that they could explore an entire galaxy in one episode and go to the next so its likely the stranded person would be able to do this.

Seronic
November 19th, 2008, 03:45 PM
okay, well in SGU the premis is that the destiny flys through the universe and connects to stargates previously placed on suitable worlds by another ship. well one of the twists is that they cant control the ship and if anyone gets left behind, they're stuck. well wouldnt the stranded person just be able to dial the stargate one after another untill they catch up with the destiny?



They'd have to know the adresse to whatever planet the destiny is hoping away to. And I don't think the expedition will know where its going ahead of time.. or no one would be left behind, just gate to that area. Unless, if they can see ahead, they could end up gating into a hostile world (maybe iris type thing, gg)

Greenfire32
November 19th, 2008, 04:31 PM
I always thought that if someone did somehow get "left behind" all they would have to do is dial Earth or something and then they'd be fine.

And yes I realize there are some problems with this theory like how many extra symbols you need and which one you use, but that's why I let the writers tell the story. :cameron:

jenks
November 19th, 2008, 04:48 PM
I always thought that if someone did somehow get "left behind" all they would have to do is dial Earth or something and then they'd be fine.

And yes I realize there are some problems with this theory like how many extra symbols you need and which one you use, but that's why I let the writers tell the story. :cameron:

Not to mention the insane amount of power you'd need...

lunarleviathan
November 20th, 2008, 04:47 AM
I always thought that if someone did somehow get "left behind" all they would have to do is dial Earth or something and then they'd be fine.

And yes I realize there are some problems with this theory like how many extra symbols you need and which one you use, but that's why I let the writers tell the story. :cameron:

That breaks the entire premise of the show. They can't go back to Earth. If they could, they'd just go back and fetch a massive expedition party, or get the science boffins to stop the Destiny for research purposes, or just go home and forget all about it. That would essentially be Atlantis but boring. ;)

rsanchez
November 20th, 2008, 12:45 PM
Maybe the team on the ship will carry subspace transmitters that will allow anyone who is stranded to extrapolate the Destiny's gate address based on the position of the Destiny relative to the stranded person.

airrick
November 20th, 2008, 03:51 PM
I am thinking that the show will be filled with a bunch of noobs that dont know how to research information on the ship.. figuring out gate addresses or maybe how to jump from one gate to another in the same galaxy..

I am really curious to how the writers are going to work this in.. getting "stuck" on a ship just seems a little far fetched to me since we have ships @ our disposal and they would have to be a long long long way from home for us not to be able to do some kind of search and rescue..

Quadhelix
November 20th, 2008, 08:12 PM
I am really curious to how the writers are going to work this in.. getting "stuck" on a ship just seems a little far fetched to me since we have ships @ our disposal and they would have to be a long long long way from home for us not to be able to do some kind of search and rescue..
Well, you first have to remember that the Destiny has been going for at least 10,000 years. This means that even if they were to disable the Destiny's hyperdrive somehow to keep it from making new jumps, it would still take many hundreds if not thousands of years for an Earth ship to catch up. Assuming the Destiny travels to a new galaxy once every five years (it is likely far, far more often, for plot and setting reasons and is shown below to be quite generous in terms of established hyperdrive speeds), and that the galaxies are roughly as far apart as the Milky Way and Pegasus, then even an Earth ship with a ZPM would take roughly 200 years to get from Earth to the Destiny's current position.



Odds are, however, that the Destiny is far older than 10,000 years and is thus much, much farther away. Also, it is likely (for reasons explained below for those interested) that the Destiny has an intergalactic hyperdrive, meaning that no Earth-built ship will be able to catch up with it. Ever.






Why is it likely that the Destiny has an intergalactic hyperdrive?

It takes a ship with a fully powered intergalactic hyperdrive (i.e., an Asgard ship or the Daedalus with a ZPM) four days to cross the 3,000,000 light-year expanse between the Milky Way and Pegasus, yielding a speed of roughly 31,000 lightyears/hour. It takes Earth ships without a ZPM roughly 18 days to make the same journey, yielding a speed of roughly 6,900 lightyears/hour.

Wraith ships with intergalactic hyperdrives would make similar time to an Earth ship. However, in "The Siege, Part 3," it was going to take the Wraith (using a standard hyperdrive) roughly 36 hours to reach Atlantis from somewhere in Pegasus. Assuming that about half that time is spent waiting between jumps, as in "No Man's Land," and that the Pegasus galaxy is, in fact, the Pegasus Irregular Galaxy, which is a little over 4,000 lightyears across, yields a maximum speed for "intragalactic" hyperdrives of about 200 lightyears/hour.

Ships equipped with such hyperdrives would take 625 days, or a little over a year and a half, to get from the Milky Way to Pegasus. However, we know that the Destiny will be making such jumps routinely, so unless Stargate: Universe is going to have entire seasons set in hyperspace, the Destiny's hyperdrive must be of one of the intergalactic varieties.

lunarleviathan
November 21st, 2008, 09:04 AM
Very good reasoning and explanation Quadhelix. I think you're pretty much on the money for what we can expect.

Arga
November 24th, 2008, 11:51 AM
Well, it sounds pretty much like the show "Sliders".
Missing the "departure window" is a threat that will create drama.
I bet they will everytime just get there in time, (after escaping whatever jail or situation they'll be trapped in), for just a matter of a few seconds.
And if by very bad luck, someone get stranded, (because the actor is dismissed from the show) we'll see him back one day, many episodes later, in a big plot device, as he found a way to reach the others...

ha'tak_
November 24th, 2008, 11:55 AM
okay, well in SGU the premis is that the destiny flys through the universe and connects to stargates previously placed on suitable worlds by another ship. well one of the twists is that they cant control the ship and if anyone gets left behind, they're stuck. well wouldnt the stranded person just be able to dial the stargate one after another untill they catch up with the destiny?

the only reason they wouldnt be able to do this is if the destiny jumps from one galaxy to another and if that were the case they wouldnt be able to dial the next galaxy over to catch up but galaxys are typicaly big places and it would be a litle unrealistic that they could explore an entire galaxy in one episode and go to the next so its likely the stranded person would be able to do this.

this is called random dailing and does allmost never work

stargater1990
November 25th, 2008, 07:25 PM
this is called random dailing and does allmost never work


no, i was talking about gating to one planet then another and another untill they were in range of the destiny to gate aboard. i guess i should have worded it differently.

Quadhelix
November 25th, 2008, 08:21 PM
no, i was talking about gating to one planet then another and another untill they were in range of the destiny to gate aboard. i guess i should have worded it differently.
Firstly, in order to even contemplate this, the person would have to know where the Destiny was going, right down to the 'Gate address.

On top of that, once the Destiny leaves the galaxy, it is forever beyond reach, unless the person has a ZPM (or similar power source) and a dialing computer capable of dialing an eight-chevron address. Why? You suggest dialing a sequence of 'Gates to catch up, but there would be no 'Gates between the galaxies: the Milky Way is about 100,000 light across, but galaxies are generally millions of light years apart. Stargates can generally reach anywhere in their galaxy via a seven-cheron address, but as seen from the the 'Gate-Bridge used in Stargate: Atlantis, Stargates have a maximum range of about 100,000 light years, as thirty of them are needed to form a chain crossing the 3,000,000 between Milky Way and Pegasus.

Therefore, yes, a person could 'Gate to the edge of the galaxy in which he or she were strnded, but the Stargates there would lack the range to connect to the Stargates in the next galaxy, and the Destiny would be in hyperspace and thus unable to take travellers.

Replicator Fifth
November 25th, 2008, 08:29 PM
Firstly, in order to even contemplate this, the person would have to know where the Destiny was going, right down to the 'Gate address.

On top of that, once the Destiny leaves the galaxy, it is forever beyond reach, unless the person has a ZPM (or similar power source) and a dialing computer capable of dialing an eight-chevron address. Why? You suggest dialing a sequence of 'Gates to catch up, but there would be no 'Gates between the galaxies: the Milky Way is about 100,000 light across, but galaxies are generally millions of light years apart. Stargates can generally reach anywhere in their galaxy via a seven-cheron address, but as seen from the the 'Gate-Bridge used in Stargate: Atlantis, Stargates have a maximum range of about 100,000 light years, as thirty of them are needed to form a chain crossing the 3,000,000 between Milky Way and Pegasus.

Therefore, yes, a person could 'Gate to the edge of the galaxy in which he or she were strnded, but the Stargates there would lack the range to connect to the Stargates in the next galaxy, and the Destiny would be in hyperspace and thus unable to take travellers.
Thats the complicatedd way of saying it.
the simple would be: No one knows the edge of the Universe as it is eternally expanding and you would need an improbability drive hooked up to the gate to actually succeed.

Quadhelix
November 26th, 2008, 05:08 AM
No one knows the edge of the Universe as it is eternally expanding and you would need an improbability drive hooked up to the gate to actually succeed.
The edge of the Universe? How did that come up?

The issue was whether a stranded member of the Destiny's crew could catch up to it once it left the galaxy by leap-frogging through a series of Stargates until said crew member caught up. I pointed out that such a method would not work because the distance between galaxies is several times the maximum range of a Stargate, meaning that the "leap-frog chain" would die after the first Stargate in the so-called chain.

Steelbox
November 26th, 2008, 07:11 AM
The destiny is a gate seeding ship no? So it will logically go to a planet where there is no stargate yes? So the gate on the destiny is the main one while it is installing the permanent on the planet. When it leaves orbit, the permanent starts taking incoming calls. Maybe the computer on the destiny already has sheduled stops on other next, lets say 5 planets and already has extrapolated the new adresses for these stops. When a gs time goes off world they just take note of the next 5 stops, when members get stranded they jus dial the next adress and bam, they are again on the destiny. Quiet simple and easy. Say 3 hours to the destiny reach the nest stop, 1 hour to assemble the gate, the time will have plenty of time.

GateFanSamJack
November 26th, 2008, 09:11 AM
The way the gate address system was explained in the original Stargate movie, it seems there needs to be a network of gates for any one gate to work correctly. The spread of the gates in three dimensions across the galaxy is how the gates recognize a three-dimensional coordinate system. That would infer that the gate system may not be fully functional in the new galaxy as it is in the Milky Way.

So, just because they managed to transport the people from the MW to the new galaxy would indicate there isn't a problem transporting from a galaxy where the gate system is fully functional to where the crew ended up. However, just because the crew sees any point at all in following through on the ship's mission instead of staying on the nicest planet they can find, tells me they expect to be able to get home by getting the gate system functional in the new galaxy.

Another interesting aspect of this is that transporting stuff (like their body swapping communication device and ammo) won't be too much of a problem if they can avoid accidents like the one that stranded them there in the first place.

Conclusion: the gate system is not fully functional in the new galaxy so catching up with the ship isn't possible (or always possible).

Depending on how much of the gate system is already functioning, however, it may be possible to transport to some gates, but not others, depending on how functioning gates are oriented relative to the gates they are trying to use. That would raise some interesting questions about what path the ship is taking and whether that path will delay getting gates working due to the path being too linear or planar.

wolverine_nl
November 26th, 2008, 09:30 AM
okay, next question is, how do they get on the ship in the first place if it's so many galaxies underway in the first place.:mckay:

Quadhelix
November 26th, 2008, 09:44 AM
The destiny is a gate seeding ship no?
No. It is the follow-up ship to the 'Gate-seeder. The Destiny's mission is to explore the effect of the Stargate network left behind by the previous ship.





So it will logically go to a planet where there is no stargate yes? Only based off of your faulty assumption that the Destiny is a 'Gate-seeder ship. In actuallity, all the planets that the team visits will be part of a well-established 'Gate network.




So the gate on the destiny is the main one while it is installing the permanent on the planet. When it leaves orbit, the permanent starts taking incoming calls. Maybe the computer on the destiny already has sheduled stops on other next, lets say 5 planets and already has extrapolated the new adresses for these stops. When a gs time goes off world they just take note of the next 5 stops, when members get stranded they jus dial the next adress and bam, they are again on the destiny. Quiet simple and easy. Say 3 hours to the destiny reach the nest stop, 1 hour to assemble the gate, the time will have plenty of time. Except that I am pretty sure that this is not the way the system will work. What will most likely happen, based on what we know of the story so-far, is that the Destiny will arrive in a new galaxy, send out probes or something via the pre-established 'Gate network, then move on to a new galaxy.

It is arguably possible that the Destiny will move to a new planet in the same galaxy, but this does not match with the plot, which states that once the Destiny moves on, it is impossible to go back to rescue people left behind. The only way for this plot to work is if the Destiny moves to a new galaxy, otherwise a team could 'Gate back to the planet that the Destiny just left and tell the Destiny's new 'Gate address to whoever got left behind, allowing them to 'Gate back to the Destiny.

Since we know that such a "rescue" will be impossible, the Destiny must travel to a new galaxy each time it moves.




The way the gate address system was explained in the original Stargate movie, it seems there needs to be a network of gates for any one gate to work correctly. The spread of the gates in three dimensions across the galaxy is how the gates recognize a three-dimensional coordinate system. That would infer that the gate system may not be fully functional in the new galaxy as it is in the Milky Way.

So, just because they managed to transport the people from the MW to the new galaxy would indicate there isn't a problem transporting from a galaxy where the gate system is fully functional to where the crew ended up. However, just because the crew sees any point at all in following through on the ship's mission instead of staying on the nicest planet they can find, tells me they expect to be able to get home by getting the gate system functional in the new galaxy.

Another interesting aspect of this is that transporting stuff (like their body swapping communication device and ammo) won't be too much of a problem if they can avoid accidents like the one that stranded them there in the first place.

Conclusion: the gate system is not fully functional in the new galaxy so catching up with the ship isn't possible (or always possible). Your argument has one very fundamental flaw: it is based, like Steelbox's on the false assumption that the Destiny is 'Gate-seeder and that the new 'Gate networks will thus be incomplete. In actuality, the 'Gate networks that the new team encounters will be quite long established.




okay, next question is, how do they get on the ship in the first place if it's so many galaxies underway in the first place.:mckay:
The ninth chevron, which extends the Stargate's range much like the eighth chevron, but more so.

GateFanSamJack
November 26th, 2008, 09:56 AM
Your argument has one very fundamental flaw: it is based, like Steelbox's on the false assumption that the Destiny is 'Gate-seeder and that the new 'Gate networks will thus be incomplete. In actuality, the 'Gate networks that the new team encounters will be quite long established.


My argument merely glosses over the fact there are two ships so it stands from that viewpoint. I haven't heard anything about how functional the gate system will be or how many gates have already been seeded or that the gates work before the Destiny visits them, so that would be a counter-argument if you've heard something I haven't.

Quadhelix
November 26th, 2008, 02:00 PM
My argument merely glosses over the fact there are two ships so it stands from that viewpoint. I haven't heard anything about how functional the gate system will be or how many gates have already been seeded or that the gates work before the Destiny visits them, so that would be a counter-argument if you've heard something I haven't.
According to the official site, the Stargates were "placed centuries ahead of the Destiny" (link: here (http://stargate.mgm.com/universe/)), meaning that unless it takes centuries for the 'Gate-seeder ship to establish the network, the Destiny will be spending most of its time exploring pre-established 'Gate networks.

toby1kanobi
November 27th, 2008, 06:46 AM
Firstly, in order to even contemplate this, the person would have to know where the Destiny was going, right down to the 'Gate address.

On top of that, once the Destiny leaves the galaxy, it is forever beyond reach, unless the person has a ZPM (or similar power source) and a dialing computer capable of dialing an eight-chevron address. Why? You suggest dialing a sequence of 'Gates to catch up, but there would be no 'Gates between the galaxies: the Milky Way is about 100,000 light across, but galaxies are generally millions of light years apart. Stargates can generally reach anywhere in their galaxy via a seven-cheron address, but as seen from the the 'Gate-Bridge used in Stargate: Atlantis, Stargates have a maximum range of about 100,000 light years, as thirty of them are needed to form a chain crossing the 3,000,000 between Milky Way and Pegasus.

Therefore, yes, a person could 'Gate to the edge of the galaxy in which he or she were strnded, but the Stargates there would lack the range to connect to the Stargates in the next galaxy, and the Destiny would be in hyperspace and thus unable to take travellers.

i like that idea. how about this

the team first ge to the destiny due to a long range proximity alarm at atlantis (perhaps the ship is due to survay the new planet atlantis is on, the team gate beam gate aboard (once the destiny is in orbit the atlantis computer detects destiny and unlocks files that provide information of how to get aboard) once aboard the destiny jumps. you may think ive digressed but heres the bit im getting at. after the jump from its one and only chance encounter with atlantis (theonly place in that may have possesed the info to get aboard in the first place) it jumps out of range of any stargates that are known to us, even out of range of a zpm powered gate weve only seen a zpm gate dial an adjacent galaxy not one severa galaxies away perhaps an ori supergate has the range as as far as we know they are powered by something far more vast than a zpm. and what if the destiny dusnt use an intergalactic hyperspace drive but instead uses a sort of built in supergate that unfolds around the ship to jump (think the moving nacells on the uss vovager or the battle blades on the andromeda) And who is to say the course is planet a to planet b then c ect it may have a random course that skips entire galaxies at a time

Quadhelix
November 27th, 2008, 04:32 PM
the team first ge to the destiny due to a long range proximity alarm at atlantis (perhaps the ship is due to survay the new planet atlantis is on, the team gate beam gate aboard (once the destiny is in orbit the atlantis computer detects destiny and unlocks files that provide information of how to get aboard) once aboard the destiny jumps. All of this is predicated on the notion that the Destiny is discovered in "known" space, however, this will almost certainly not be the case. The Destiny left millions of years ago ; however, even if it had "made the rounds" of the Local Group (a cluster of about 40 galaxies which include Milky Way and Pegasus), that still would have taken it a few centuries at most (if it takes a full decade to explore one galaxy). In other words, the Destiny is already tens of thousands of galaxies "away."



what if the destiny dusnt use an intergalactic hyperspace drive but instead uses a sort of built in supergate that unfolds around the ship to jump (think the moving nacells on the uss vovager or the battle blades on the andromeda)
There are two problems with this design:
1. There would be no destination Super 'Gate to which the ship's Super 'Gate could connect.
2. Once the ship had traveled through the Super 'Gate, there would be no way for said Super 'Gate to reach the ship: in order to travel to the ship, the Super 'Gate would have to disassemble itself, which would, of course, cut the connection.

quade_1
November 28th, 2008, 09:56 AM
chances are the Destiny will jump to another galaxy once they gate on and activate it. Then if you get left behind it's going to be like calling for chinese food while in china with no phone book and a 36 button phone.

On a 36 glyph stargate, even if you knew the PoO was the last glyph that still leaves 35 glyphs for 5 slots of the address which means you have 389,555,840 possible outcomes. you would be lucky to get another connection and an act of god to get the next stop for Destiny.