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View Full Version : I'm not one to Keller bash...



Colonel_Ez
November 19th, 2008, 01:03 PM
In fact, im one of the few that likes her as a character however...

If somebody had to play stupid over Woolsey seeing people nobody else could see... did it really have to be the CMO?

You have to assume based on "mission/case reports" from the SGC would have given her at least an inkling that something wasnt right with that whole situation...

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 01:21 PM
I'm annoyed no one thought it odd that Richard was suddenly conversing with thin air. They should know better by now.

fumblesmcstupid
November 19th, 2008, 01:33 PM
Yah! Don't do another scan after he starts acting weird..just give him some pills! *headshake followed by an eyeroll*

Hong3103
November 19th, 2008, 01:41 PM
You can't blame her... only so much the writers will let her do. :p

Rac80
November 19th, 2008, 01:42 PM
You can't blame her... only so much the writers will let her do. :p

ITA!!! who knows, maybe woolsey always talks to himself like I other people do!

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 02:39 PM
I'll say this for Keller, she's supposed to be a surgeon, and if surgeons don't find something they can fix by cutting it out, they aren't interested.
Far easier to give the patient a sleeper, and stop the whining.
I don't know how on earth she's going to put up with Rodney over the years!!!:confused:

dasNdanger
November 19th, 2008, 02:42 PM
I talk to myself all the time, and no one has ever questioned it. Of course, most people give me a wide berth, too... ;)

das

Fenrir Foxz
November 19th, 2008, 02:42 PM
In fact, im one of the few that likes her as a character however...

If somebody had to play stupid over Woolsey seeing people nobody else could see... did it really have to be the CMO?

You have to assume based on "mission/case reports" from the SGC would have given her at least an inkling that something wasnt right with that whole situation...

Keller did not play stupid over the symptoms Woolsey presented, she did a scan which showed he was perfectly normal physically and despite how Woolsey acted, when Keller asked him about the symptoms he played along leading her to believe it was possibly stress, anxiety and fatigue. If you went to a doctor presenting the same symptoms the first thing they would do is recommend you get some rest, they might prescribe something to help... Keller did that and she also told Woolsey that if they don't help then to come back and see her (at which point she would have referred him to the resident psychologist on Atlantis).


Yah! Don't do another scan after he starts acting weird..just give him some pills! *headshake followed by an eyeroll*

Keller scanned Woolsey and found there was nothing physical wrong with him so what should she have done, claimed he had developed psychosis or something? Stress, anxiety and lack of sleep can cause a person to be confused and from Keller's point of view there was nothing to say Woolsey was definitely hallucinating, he played along with the symptoms she asked him about which would have led to her trying out some medication to help him relax and get some rest.

Lucylee
November 19th, 2008, 02:43 PM
I'll say this for Keller, she's supposed to be a surgeon, and if surgeons don't find something they can fix by cutting it out, they aren't interested.
Far easier to give the patient a sleeper, and stop the whining.
I don't know how on earth she's going to put up with Rodney over the years!!!:confused:

Oh, I'm sure she has every intention of keeping him sedated.

Fenrir Foxz
November 19th, 2008, 02:50 PM
I'll say this for Keller, she's supposed to be a surgeon, and if surgeons don't find something they can fix by cutting it out, they aren't interested.

I don't think Keller would be CMO if her only skills in medicine were as a surgeon.


Far easier to give the patient a sleeper, and stop the whining.

Or it was the right course of treatment to try out based on Woolsey's symptoms.

Lythisrose
November 19th, 2008, 02:57 PM
I don't think Keller would be CMO if her only skills in medicine were as a surgeon.

A CMO is usually chosen more for their administrative skills as opposed to being brilliant in a variety of medical fields. Dr.Keller is shown to be a neurosurgeon, a highly specialized field that would have required years of training.
By necessity, in such an environment as Atlantis, she's probably expected to serve her rotation in the clinics and see all-comers. But I don't think it would be fair to expect her to have anything but a surgeon's perspective on things.
And I work with them, they do like to slice and dice, and have quite the derogatory things to say about the medical docs. Kind of like Rodney dismissing the "soft sciences."

Rac80
November 19th, 2008, 06:27 PM
I'll say this for Keller, she's supposed to be a surgeon, and if surgeons don't find something they can fix by cutting it out, they aren't interested.
Far easier to give the patient a sleeper, and stop the whining.
I don't know how on earth she's going to put up with Rodney over the years!!!:confused:

she won't, she will dump him and run off with Ronon! ;)

nx01a
November 19th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Is it me or does she just give out sleeping pills to everyone who comes in there? :P

Lahela
November 20th, 2008, 01:29 AM
Woolsey told her he was having visual and auditory hallucinations. No doctor (especially a neurosurgeon) would just hand a patient displaying those kinds of symptoms some sleeping pills.

Linzi
November 20th, 2008, 02:53 AM
Woolsey told her he was having visual and auditory hallucinations. No doctor (especially a neurosurgeon) would just hand a patient displaying those kinds of symptoms some sleeping pills.
Of course they wouldn't. They also wouldn't hand over a whole bottle of pills and then give no instructions on when to take them or how many to take! This proves the writers really need to do their research more. I can only blame JM here. He should have taken five minutes to actually find out what a doctor would do here - how a doctor would act. Has he been to the doctor? Does his doctor hand out pills with no instructions? :confused:

If TPTB want me to take Keller seriously as a doctor, let alone as CMO, then they need to write as if she actually IS a doctor. This might well be fiction, but it's based in our timeline in our reality, thus we do need to see a little bit of realism every now and then - well, I do anyway.

I have to say, I don't think Keller is meant to be a neuro-surgeon. As is often the case, TPTB just make the CMO a 'jack of all trades'. Of course, in real life that doesn't happen, because doctors specialise in one area. But it was the same with Carson. He was a xeno-biologist/researcher, a genetics specialist, a surgeon, general medical doctor.... I'm afraid we have to take it all with a pinch of salt. It's silly really. Because as has been said here, the CMO is really a manager and has a team working beneath him/her. On SGA we rarely even see subordinate doctors.

Colonel_Ez
November 20th, 2008, 03:39 AM
Keller did not play stupid over the symptoms Woolsey presented, she did a scan which showed he was perfectly normal physically and despite how Woolsey acted, when Keller asked him about the symptoms he played along leading her to believe it was possibly stress, anxiety and fatigue. If you went to a doctor presenting the same symptoms the first thing they would do is recommend you get some rest, they might prescribe something to help... Keller did that and she also told Woolsey that if they don't help then to come back and see her (at which point she would have referred him to the resident psychologist on Atlantis).



Keller scanned Woolsey and found there was nothing physical wrong with him so what should she have done, claimed he had developed psychosis or something? Stress, anxiety and lack of sleep can cause a person to be confused and from Keller's point of view there was nothing to say Woolsey was definitely hallucinating, he played along with the symptoms she asked him about which would have led to her trying out some medication to help him relax and get some rest.


I guess my point would be, if i went to the doctor saying i was seeing and hearing things - they'd assume stress and tell me to sleep but them, i dont live on an alien planet where god knows what happens to people on a semi daily basis

If i went to the doctor on atlantis or in the SGC saying i was seeing and hearing things i would expect them to dig a little deeper

I understand that for stories sake "somebody" had to play stupid, i just dont think it should have been Keller, because it undermines the role she is meant to play

fumblesmcstupid
November 20th, 2008, 12:36 PM
This goes along the line that a lot of people try to say that because the show is science fiction, that it can step outside the bounds of REAL LIFE! So therefore All realism for medicine and Military Regs go out the window!

So in this AU You Don't do a scan of someone who is acting weird, you don't ask him to go see the new shrink, you just throw some pills at them and go about your business!

Bad writers just want us to accept bad writing and lousy research or none at all!

Theses writers Do Not know anything about the professions that they are writing about!
Shody producing!

FallenAngelII
November 20th, 2008, 01:08 PM
I don't think Keller would be CMO if her only skills in medicine were as a surgeon.
The job of CMO is much like t job of military commander (CFO?). It's a lot of paperwork, delegating and bossing people around. You don't have to be a jack of all-trades to be CMO because it's not a requirement to personally be able to treat every single patient that comes in the door since it's not your job to do so if you're CMO, anyway.

See, this is what happens when the PTB throw realism out the window and people take their word for granted.

Ncc-72452
November 20th, 2008, 02:43 PM
I did find it a little odd that she didn't push the issue a little more. I also find it odd that Woolsey didn't come out and tell her that he was seeing things. Especially after the events of "The Seed" that had such an effect on Woolsey. I can understand his fear, but he has a responsibility to the base, and if he's a potential danger, he needs to investigate that, which includes being completely honest with his doctor. I guess it's lucky that the AI wasn't hostile this time.

airrick
November 20th, 2008, 04:45 PM
I am just not a fan of Keller... I find that when the story is created around her it seems to be less interesting..

Fenrir Foxz
November 20th, 2008, 11:10 PM
I guess my point would be, if i went to the doctor saying i was seeing and hearing things - they'd assume stress and tell me to sleep but them, i dont live on an alien planet where god knows what happens to people on a semi daily basis.

If i went to the doctor on atlantis or in the SGC saying i was seeing and hearing things i would expect them to dig a little deeper

I understand that for stories sake "somebody" had to play stupid, i just dont think it should have been Keller, because it undermines the role she is meant to play

Woolsey didn't actually tell Keller he was hallucinating and agreed to the symptoms she asked him about. You're right that both in the SGC and on Atlantis such things should be looked into a bit deeper but without more to go on all Keller could do is go with what a doctor in that situation should and that's offer some meds to help Woolsey rest, then maybe get him to speak to the psychologist.


The job of CMO is much like t job of military commander (CFO?). It's a lot of paperwork, delegating and bossing people around. You don't have to be a jack of all-trades to be CMO because it's not a requirement to personally be able to treat every single patient that comes in the door since it's not your job to do so if you're CMO, anyway.

But it is the role of Atlantis' CMO, maybe in the real world she would just be the head of the department and in charge of the infirmary without having to treat almost everyone that comes into the infirmary, but this is a show where they have a regular character to play chief of medicine and doctor.


See, this is what happens when the PTB throw realism out the window and people take their word for granted.

I was talking from an in-show perspective where the CMO does have to deal with stuff that a CMO in the real world might not. If Keller couldn't deal with a whole range of medical situations (same went for Carson) then we wouldn't have a familiar face dealing with the medical stuff on the show. I think it's realism well sacrificed when it means we have a familiar character dealing with the medical stuff instead of a new face whenever someone is injured and the CMO only appearing when the head of department is required.

Lahela
November 21st, 2008, 02:24 AM
Woolsey didn't actually tell Keller he was hallucinating and agreed to the symptoms she asked him about.

I'd argue this point. From the transcript:


KELLER: Any visual symptoms shadows or flashes in your field of vision?

WOOLSEY: Uhhh... sort of, yes.

KELLER: What about auditory symptoms? The occasional ringing or buzzing or whistling?

...

WOOLSEY: Yes, the occasional buzzing.

That, to me, is him admitting that he is seeing and hearing things that aren't there. And while I admit I'm not doctor, a quick search of the internet gave up no evidence that exhaustion has any auditory symptoms whatsoever.

Fenrir Foxz
November 21st, 2008, 03:03 AM
I'd argue this point. From the transcript:

That, to me, is him admitting that he is seeing and hearing things that aren't there. And while I admit I'm not doctor, a quick search of the internet gave up no evidence that exhaustion has any auditory symptoms whatsoever.

I meant hallucinating in the sense of what we saw, a woman that wasn't really there, flashes or shadows in the corner of your eyes is different, or at least I think so anyway and are known symptoms of exhaustion.

As for the auditory symptoms everyone is different and a doctor wouldn't instantly claim a patient is having a psychotic episode or whatever without looking into treating the problem that seemed more obvious from Keller's point of view, Woolsey being stressed out and exhausted.


Just so I know, what should Keller have done, sent Woolsey to see the psychologist on Atlantis? - Given the impression she had, that he needed some rest she might have recommended that when he went back to see her whether the symptoms had cleared up or not but nothing abnormal showed up in the scan and I don't think Keller got the impression Woolsey was at risk to himself or others so there was no urgency to take it to the next level but instead for him to get some rest first and see what difference that makes.

FallenAngelII
November 21st, 2008, 06:55 AM
But it is the role of Atlantis' CMO, maybe in the real world she would just be the head of the department and in charge of the infirmary without having to treat almost everyone that comes into the infirmary, but this is a show where they have a regular character to play chief of medicine and doctor.
Yes, the show is highly unrealistic, and?

stargatelvr
November 21st, 2008, 02:18 PM
I'm annoyed no one thought it odd that Richard was suddenly conversing with thin air. They should know better by now.

Should being the key word

Lahela
November 22nd, 2008, 09:59 AM
Just so I know, what should Keller have done...?

She should have admitted him for observation. He clearly had something wrong with him, and the CMO on Atlantis should know better than anyone that symptoms can be far "deeper" than can be detected on a scan. Doppelganger, anyone?

Fenrir Foxz
November 22nd, 2008, 11:09 AM
She should have admitted him for observation. He clearly had something wrong with him, and the CMO on Atlantis should know better than anyone that symptoms can be far "deeper" than can be detected on a scan. Doppelganger, anyone?

Maybe Keller should have had Woolsey under observation but it comes back to the story the writers were trying to tell which didn't include that happening and I don't find Keller's actions wrong, she treated Woolsey for the symptoms she perceived to be present.

nx01a
November 22nd, 2008, 10:31 PM
"I'm seeing and hearing things, Doctor."
"But the scan showed nothing... Major Lorne! Put Mr. Woolsey in a cell until we can figure out what alien influence is affecting him."

^ Realistic portrayal of what should happen in a sci-fi tv show, but the characters're never that smart.
And don't blame Keller alone. Woolsey should be the first person to come clean and give up command once he realized he was compromised, his job on the line or not.

Side note on Keller and sleeping pills... I remember seeing her taking pills from the dispensary for her own personal use, and, I may be wrong, taking some in her quarters. If the dear doctor was having stress issues and self-medicating, that would be quite interesting and quite Babylon 5 and ER. Physician, heal thyself.

Lahela
November 24th, 2008, 02:12 AM
Maybe Keller should have had Woolsey under observation but it comes back to the story the writers were trying to tell which didn't include that happening and I don't find Keller's actions wrong, she treated Woolsey for the symptoms she perceived to be present.


"I'm seeing and hearing things, Doctor."
"But the scan showed nothing... Major Lorne! Put Mr. Woolsey in a cell until we can figure out what alien influence is affecting him."

^ Realistic portrayal of what should happen in a sci-fi tv show, but the characters're never that smart.
And don't blame Keller alone. Woolsey should be the first person to come clean and give up command once he realized he was compromised, his job on the line or not.


Of course they weren't going to show what, IMO, should have happened because the story needed to progress. They just should, IMO, have dispensed with the scene altogether because, IMO, it did neither character any favours.

Crazedwraith
November 24th, 2008, 04:46 AM
I'm more inclined to bash Woolsey in this scene. I mean rather than giving Keller vague answers he could have said: "Doctor, look around you, is there any one else in the immediate vicinity? No? Okay, I am seeing a fully formed articulate woman... Something is wrong with me."

Sure, she may have just chucked him in a looney bin, but these people are no strangers to weird happenings.

nx01a
November 24th, 2008, 05:28 PM
Of course they weren't going to show what, IMO, should have happened because the story needed to progress. They just should, IMO, have dispensed with the scene altogether because, IMO, it did neither character any favours.Had she been at breakfast/lunch/whatever at the beginning and end, I would have liked that. Woolsey should probably have avoided keller altogether, or the AI told him the truth before he went there, though he'd have no reason to believe it.

DragonLadyK
December 2nd, 2008, 07:11 AM
Maybe Keller should have had Woolsey under observation but it comes back to the story the writers were trying to tell which didn't include that happening and I don't find Keller's actions wrong, she treated Woolsey for the symptoms she perceived to be present.

Except those symptoms had nothing to do with exhaustion or stress. They could have, however, been tinnitis, retinal detachment, or the result of a head injury. Of course, those would have shown up on a scan... but infrasound exposure wouldn't have. Buzzing ears and flashes of light are common with exposure to 18-19 Hz infrasound, which has huge mental implications -- infrasound exposure can cause hallucinations, mood disorders, and usually ultimately ends with someone throwing themselves off a building. Since Atlantis is sitting on the ocean, infrasound is one of those things Keller (as a doctor) should be on the watch for.

See, water is an excellent acoustic conductor that can carry infrasound waves great distances, and the metal of Atlantis is an evern better acoustic conductor than water. If an underwater volcano erupted and thus gave rise to underwater earthquakes, the earthquakes' infrasound could be carried all the way up to the city and start affecting everyone. People's sensitivity varies, and the symptoms get worse as the exposure's duration increases.

Nevermind that "why isn't your name in the database? Why couldn't Amelia see you earlier today" is a bloody strange thing for Woolsey to say to her. Keller just does a scan and stops, a procedure that has resulted in massive misdiagnosis three times now. (She didn't catch the hive-ship spores in the IOA/SGC-mandatory post-mission checkup, she didn't catch the parasite in The Seed, and she didn't catch that Woolsey was being affected by a hallucinatory device.)

TPTB don't Google before they write Keller anymore than they think about how the shippy scenes make her look to anyone not already predisposed to like her.

DragonLady