PDA

View Full Version : Can John Sheppard stop thinking with his libido already?



FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 04:32 AM
I know that some people like the "humor" in it while others like to look at a man oggling an attractive woman since "boys will be boys", but come on, writers!

How did this episode start out? With another "John <3 teh ladiez" joke. Oh, he took some (soft, hah!) scientists out with a jumper (it sounds like a volunteer mission). Oh, one of them is female and attractive. So what does he do? He volunteers to stay behind just so he can flirt with her (and/or stare at her creepily without flirting).

OK... what? I'm sorry, what? Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard, we know you're a flyboy, we know you're sex on legs, we know you like the ladies. But what?

You're the military commander of Atlantis. You shouldn't even be there. There are plenty of people with the gene on Atlantis who aren't a ranking senior member in a commanding position! From the sounds of it (and logic), you randomly volunteered to do it yourself instead of doing the more obvious: Sending someone else.

And once there,you stayed behind, not because there was a need for you to, but because you liked some chick.

It's OK to flirt with people left and right in your spare time. But while on duty? Not so much (though John doesn't seem to care about this). What if, while you're busy flirting , something were to happen back on Atlantis?

A foothoold/invasion? Explosion? An attack? Anything that requires the military commander to be present to prevent further deaths? People could die because you weren't there to prevent it because you felt like oggling some girl (who gave you the cold shoulder when you threw in a not-so-subtle pickup line, hah!)!

What if Kolya had chosen to attack the city directly (somehow) instead? What then? People could die and the city could fall because you were oggling some girl and needed 10 minutes to fly back to the city!

For the love of puppies, writers. We know you like women, you know you like to have Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard flirt with women. But can you stop having him flirt with women at the most inopportune (and inappropriate) times?!

He has a duty to Atlantis and to Earth. But, of course, chasing tail supersedes this.

Even Teyla disapproved.

vatazes
November 15th, 2008, 04:40 AM
I have to agree with you there, but it was a plot device used by the writer to get John away to have him and 'Kolya' duke it out. That and I have always seen John as one to ocassionaly use his postion to further his needs. Not in a bad way, but his typical I love the girls way :).

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 04:50 AM
I have to agree with you there, but it was a plot device used by the writer to get John away to have him and 'Kolya' duke it out. That and I have always seen John as one to ocassionaly use his postion to further his needs. Not in a bad way, but his typical I love the girls way :).
The problem is that the Atlantis writers have this really bad habit of foregoing pretty much everything in order to shoehorn in plot devices.

And this wasn't some kind of mandatory plot device. He didn't have to have been there for flirting with a girl. He could've been there to escort some random scientists, none of which he was flirting with. But they chose to have him flirt with a girl.

pilgrim soul
November 15th, 2008, 04:57 AM
Do we know he was on duty, perhaps he had a couple of days off? Both Rodney and Ronon volunteered to accompany Keller in Tracker on their day off for similar reasons.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 05:01 AM
Do we know he was on duty, perhaps he had a couple of days off? Both Rodney and Ronon volunteered to accompany Keller in Tracker on their day off for similar reasons.
Nothing was mentioned about a day off. Rodney also wondered where John was, indicating he should've been there with him were he not on the escort mission (if it was a mission).

Unless you wanna infer that John had a few days off and Rodney had no clue about it... and that neither Teyla or Ronon felt like saying that John had the day off when explaining his whereabouts. Also, we have Teyla's choice of words. She didn't say he volunteered to take the scientists to the mainland, just that he volunteered to stay behind. Thus, we can infer that taking the scientists there was a mission while staying behind was a voluntary choice.

Repli!kat
November 15th, 2008, 05:01 AM
The problem is that the Atlantis writers have this really bad habit of foregoing pretty much everything in order to shoehorn in plot devices.

And this wasn't some kind of mandatory plot device. He didn't have to have been there for flirting with a girl. He could've been there to escort some random scientists, none of which he was flirting with. But they chose to have him flirt with a girl.

Yet another example of how JM thinks of the male/female dynamic. (see Travelers and The Tower I think). And he had Shep acting like he didn't understand a word of what the scientist was saying, which I find silly. Shep is too old to go mooning after a woman like this, and it's not as if he's unable to attract a woman (or man for that matter) without acting childish. Actually most of the characters have the emotional maturity of a 13 year old, so this is not really surprising. Although Sheppard is my favorite character, I found this part of the episode to be distasteful.

pilgrim soul
November 15th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Nothing was mentioned about a day off. Rodney also wondered where John was, indicating he should've been there with him were he not on the escort mission (if it was a mission).

Unless you wanna infer that John had a few days off and Rodney had no clue about it... and that neither Teyla or Ronon felt like saying that John had the day off when explaining his whereabouts. Also, we have Teyla's choice of words. She didn't say he volunteered to take the scientists to the mainland, just that he volunteered to stay behind. Thus, we can infer that taking the scientists there was a mission while staying behind was a voluntary choice.

Just because it wasn't specifically mentioned that he had a day off doesn't mean he didn't and its common sense that most of John's days off are spent on Atlantis so Rodney could well know that John had a day or two off and still wonder where he was. I don't see anything in the episode that suggests John was shirking other duties and responsibilities, at no point was he needed back on Atlantis and I don't begrudge the guy a little flirtation.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 05:15 AM
Just because it wasn't specifically mentioned that he had a day off doesn't mean he didn't and its common sense that most of John's days off are spent on Atlantis so Rodney could well know that John had a day or two off and still wonder where he was. I don't see anything in the episode that suggests John was shirking other duties and responsibilities, at no point was he needed back on Atlantis and I don't begrudge the guy a little flirtation.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
We cannot use the "it's probably this way" argument. We can only judge an episode on what was shown. Not once was the term "day off" used, thus I will not assume he had the day off just because it would or would not suit my side of the debate.

He was not shirking duties per se. He was just prioritizing chasing tail on a seemingly unimportant mission (for the military commander of Atlantis, anyway) over being back at the city.

pilgrim soul
November 15th, 2008, 05:21 AM
We cannot use the "it's probably this way" argument. We can only judge an episode on what was shown. Not once was the term "day off" used, thus I will not assume he had the day off just because it would or would not suit my side of the debate.

I've never been someone who feels that every last detail needs spelling out to me while I'm watching TV, sometimes you just have to read between the lines and put 2 and 2 together yourself. Just because something isn't specifically stated on screen doesn't mean the opposite is true. Your argument doesn't work because the term "on duty" is never used either and by your logic that would mean he had to be off duty.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 05:23 AM
I've never been someone who feels that every last detail needs spelling out to me while I'm watching TV, sometimes you just have to read between the lines and put 2 and 2 together yourself. Just because something isn't specifically stated on screen doesn't mean the opposite is true. Your argument doesn't work because the term "on duty" is never used either and by your logic that would mean he had to be off duty.
It's not about reading in between the lines. In this case, you're making an assumption based on absolutely nothing other than your desire for John to not have chosen to go on a mission that didn't require his presence just to chase some tail.

Nothing in the episode indicates he had a day off. Previously when characters had days off, there was on-screen dialogue to indicate that. Now, there was none.

pilgrim soul
November 15th, 2008, 05:30 AM
It's not about reading in between the lines. In this case, you're making an assumption based on absolutely nothing other than your desire for John to not have chosen to go on a mission that didn't require his presence just to chase some tail.


No I totally agree that he went on the mission "just to chase some tail" - but unlike you I have absolutely no problem with him doing that, he's a single guy why should he live like a monk?

The problem I have is that you seem to think that he has in some way ignored his responsibilities and duty to the expedition and put his own desires first and I, personally, don't see anything in this episode to suggest that is the case. In previous episodes I might have seen your point but not this time around.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 05:34 AM
No I totally agree that he went on the mission "just to chase some tail" - but unlike you I have absolutely no problem with him doing that, he's a single guy why should he live like a monk?
That's not the point. He's allowed to do... in his spare time. I never argued he shouldn't be allowed to flirt with anything that moves (even if I find it distasteful) as long as it's done "appropriately". Don't puts words in my mouth or strawman my argument.


The problem I have is that you seem to think that he has in some way ignored his responsibilities and duty to the expedition and put his own desires first and I, personally, don't see anything in this episode to suggest that is the case. In previous episodes I might have seen your point but not this time around.
Don't strawman this argument. I argue that he was on duty and thus should not even have been on that mission. You're arguing that he was off-duty and was thus free to do whatever he chose to do... with absolutely no evidence pointing towards this.

pilgrim soul
November 15th, 2008, 05:49 AM
But you have absolutely no evidence pointing to him being on duty other than your own interpretation of the conversation between the rest of the team at breakfast, I just happen to think that there is an alternative interpretation.

Look I'm not going to convince you so there is no point in us going around in circles, I'm merely saying that there are two possible interpretations and I personally didn't see the episode as reflecting badly on Sheppard. As I said above we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 05:57 AM
But you have absolutely no evidence pointing to him being on duty other than your own interpretation of the conversation between the rest of the team at breakfast, I just happen to think that there is an alternative interpretation.
I have plenty pointing towards him not being off-duty. Past precedence from the show where every single time someone has time off, they say it, especially if it's at least quasi-important (so people won't wonder why Rodney and Ronon randomly volunteered go with Jennifer on a mission that didn't really require assistance and Woolsey allowed them to go).

We have not a single character mentioning it, even when doing so would've been logical ("Where's John?" "He has a day off (explains why he isn't there). This is what he's doing").

So I am reading between the lines. Meanwhile, all you have is "Because it suits my argument" and "If he doesn't have the day off, then what he did would be wrong. So he must have had the day off." Because, really, what do you have to indicate he had the day off besides those two things?

Not to mention that he's probably (in a logical world) losing the respect of his men and fellow expedition members, even if he had the day off.

Person #1: "Oh, what is Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard doing on his day off?"
Person #2: "Oh, he volunteered to take some scientists to the mainland to do... stuff. Also, he volunteered to stay behind despite there being absolutely no need for that!"
Person #3: "One of them is a hot chick, right?"
Person #2: "Yeah."
All: *snicker* *snicker* "That's John, alright. Always chasing tail."

It's not that he's not a monk, it's that he's so overly flirty a lot of the time. It can't be very good for morale to have a military commander that flirts around like that, especially not if he flirts with members of the expedition.

At least the little doctor had the decency to shoot him down flat. I bet it'll make for interesting gossip later.

Victim of John's chasing tail: "John Sheppard asked me if I wanted to go back with him to set up camp for the night. I was just trying to identify plants. Now I know why he volunteered to fly us and why he volunteered to stay behind and spend the night!"
Others: "That is such a bad come on!"
Victim: "I know! Yesh!"

If someone acted like that IRL, on or off duty, there'd be some kind of consequences at least in their relations to the rest of the expedition.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 06:03 AM
I just realized something. At the start of the episode, John attempts to flirt with the female astrobiologist with an obvious come on:
"I'm gonna go back to the jumper and set up for the night. Wanna join me?"

She was classy and gave him the cold shoulder, of course.

Then, at the end of the episode, Parrish indicates they're ready to go back and had been for a long time, having been waiting at the jumper for quite some time.

Wait... wha? So was this a mission that was going to take an entire day and require them to stay overnight (which makes absolutely no sense since it's the mainland of the same planet as Atlantis is on) or was it just a quick get-in-get-back mission?

Was John just making stuff up in order to flirt? Did Parrish and what's-her-name magically finish their tasks in record speed? Are the writers just hacks who can't even remember to not contradict themselves?

I vote for the hack-theory. They just wanted a "John Sheppard is a casanova(wannabe)"-joke in there and threw it in despite. So either they're hacks or John was just a desperate little man who made stuff up to get a quickie (since there was absolutely no need for them to stay overnight, saying he'd go back to the jumper to set up just for that and asking if she wanted to join him pretty much translates to "You, me, quickie in the jumper, now!", which would explain why she seemed disturbed by it), come to think of it.

bluealien
November 15th, 2008, 06:18 AM
Did you really need to start another thread about this...



Can't say she looked disturbed at all.. she was just more interested in the so called extinct plant/flower ...


What's disturbing about having someone potentially interested in you. She's an adult.... she can say no... and she did.. so whats the big deal.. but who knows what Shep's intentions were anyway... maybe he just wanted to get away from Atlantis and enjoy the company of a pretty girl ... again whats the big deal.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 06:26 AM
Did you really need to start another thread about this...
It's a related matter, but not the same matter. It's not about the flirting, it's about a potential plot hole due to the hacks known as the PTB.



Can't say she looked disturbed at all.. she was just more interested in the so called extinct plant/flower ...
She didn't even give him an answer. There's the old idiom of not even dignifying some things with an answer. Also, did you miss the look she gave him? There was a look and a gesture with her head. I suggest you go back and check again if you missed it, it's quite obvious if you pay attention to her.


What's disturbing about having someone potentially interested in you. She's an adult.... she can say no... and she did.. so whats the big deal.. but who knows what Shep's intentions were anyway... maybe he just wanted to get away from Atlantis and enjoy the company of a pretty girl ... again whats the big deal.
Because it's just a sleazy come on, if they didn't have to spend the night? I'm gonna go back to the jumper, wanna join me? "Let's go and have sexual relations in the jumper right now instead of hanging out here doing our jobs!".

If this had been back on Atlantis or whatever, I wouldn't have cared other than rolled my eyes at yet another Kirk-moment. But in this context, it was highly unprofessional.

rsanchez
November 15th, 2008, 06:56 AM
Was John just making stuff up in order to flirt? Did Parrish and what's-her-name magically finish their tasks in record speed? Are the writers just hacks who can't even remember to not contradict themselves?
They never said they got their tasks done. I think they were just waiting for John since he was supposed to be their "escort". Remember that they still do not understand the planet completely, as was made obvious in this episode, so the scientists were being cautious and remaining in the jumper.
And give John a break. He's suffered plenty in his life, so if he finds himself a gal that likes him, more power to him.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 07:00 AM
They never said they got their tasks done. I think they were just waiting for John since he was supposed to be their "escort". Remember that they still do not understand the planet completely, as was made obvious in this episode, so the scientists were being cautious and remaining in the jumper.
So your theory is that they were done with that particular area of the mainland and were waiting for John to ferry them off to the next area? Or that they were too afraid wander off even in the slightest? They've been there for a year, I'm pretty sure they know enough about the mainland to be able to wander off a little bit on their own.

Also, it still doesn't make any sense for them to spend the night on the mainland since Atlantis is on the same planet, so it's not like they can't get back "home" in a jiffy.


And give John a break. He's suffered plenty in his life, so if he finds himself a gal that likes him, more power to him.
But he's going around flirting with anything that moves, from what this episode seems to indicate. I mean, she seemingly has absolutely no interest in him, thus, she had never showed him any interest prior to this, yet he chased after her either while on duty or in his spare time.

rsanchez
November 15th, 2008, 07:05 AM
You know what, ok John does do this often, yes he does like the ladies, but you need to get off his back. You're just nitpicking at the first five minutes of the episode, completely forgetting the rest of it. The man put himself through hell. I don't blame him for trying to find a way to be happy. If that just happens to be flirting with the latest girl, so what. You talk about him like he's just some macho man when there's so much more.
Also, his decision to accompany the scientist, or even the scientists' decision to go to the mainland, could have been influenced by the AI. We only know for sure that Woolsey, McKay, and Shepherd were under its influence, but it could have been the AI's plan to have an attractive female scientist go to the mainland, since the AI knows what men like.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 07:17 AM
You know what, ok John does do this often, yes he does like the ladies, but you need to get off his back. You're just nitpicking at the first five minutes of the episode, completely forgetting the rest of it. The man put himself through hell.
Irrelevant. What happened after the unsuccessful flirting has nothing to do with the flirting. It doesn't justify him doing something inappropriate (if it was inappropriate) just because afterwards he "went through hell" or because he tortures himself every day because he's "let people die" (in his mind).

Just because one has suffered trauma and has demons does not mean one is automatically forgiven for acting unprofessionally repeatedly when one holds a position as high as military commander of Atlantis.


I don't blame him for trying to find a way to be happy.
That's not the point. You're free to flirt... when it's appropriate.


If that just happens to be flirting with the latest girl, so what. You talk about him like he's just some macho man when there's so much more.
Go re-read what I said. I've never criticized John for flirting just because of the flirting, even if I disapprove of the frequency of it, it is his prerogative (as in, I would never flirt that much, but, hey, it's his life, who am I to tell him what to not do?). I've only criticized him for the context and the manner in which he flirted.

Don't put words in my mouth. Don't interpret my words and think your interpretation is automatically correct. I'd like to know exactly what I said that indicates that "John's just some macho man".


Also, his decision to accompany the scientist, or even the scientists' decision to go to the mainland, could have been influenced by the AI.
Ah, we're back to the wild speculations if it suits our arguments. The A.I. cannot brainwash us. It cannot control us. All it can do is show us illusions. After all, if it were able to "influence" people, it'd just influenced them to get the probe out, activate it and send it on its merry way.

So are you saying the A.I. showed John an illusion (an illusions which John's own brain controls, BTW, according to the A.I., anyway) that got John to take the scientists out to the mainland just so he could run into Acustus?

If John's illusion was tied to the scientists and the girl, the illusion would've involved the girl more. Like, say, she'd agreed to accompany him back to the jumper or something.

Also, this is all empty speculation based on nothing.


We only know for sure that Woolsey, McKay, and Shepherd were under its influence, but it could have been the AI's plan to have an attractive female scientist go to the mainland, since the AI knows what men like.
If the A.I. had somehow gotten to know John enough to know that, it'd know that John would never have demanded they extract the information and doom the Sakari civilization.

Wayston
November 15th, 2008, 07:43 AM
Just because he volunteered to stay behind does not mean he was shirking his duties. I would assume that John would not disregard his actualy duty just to be with a female. Just because this was not explained on screen does not make him some kind of power abusing pervert.

The fact that it makes little sense to have the military commander on a base flying off and staying there longer than the mission requires is because it does not make sense for John to actually be the military commander of the base, it is like o'neill continuing to lead SG1 after his promotion to general (or some other typically desk job). So John's overal military leadership is really just for show and because they writers did not want him to have to report to a higher up every time he does something and it wouldn't be expedient to introduce a military leader in a deskjob in the show.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Just because he volunteered to stay behind does not mean he was shirking his duties. I would assume that John would not disregard his actualy duty just to be with a female. Just because this was not explained on screen does not make him some kind of power abusing pervert.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say any of that.


The fact that it makes little sense to have the military commander on a base flying off and staying there longer than the mission requires is because it does not make sense for John to actually be the military commander of the base, it is like o'neill continuing to lead SG1 after his promotion to general (or some other typically desk job).
Actually, Jack stepped down as leader of SG-1 when he was promoted to general because of the very fact that the military commander is supposed to sit behind a desk and make the hard decisions most of the time, not fly off willy nilly.

And a military commander wouldn't fly off like this just to be with a female even on their spare time.


So John's overal military leadership is really just for show and because they writers did not want him to have to report to a higher up every time he does something and it wouldn't be expedient to introduce a military leader in a deskjob in the show.
Yes, the writers are very bad at writing a realistic show. This was established years ago. Anyone with a military background agrees that John is a horrendous leader for Atlantis' military, in part because he's on a gate team, something no military commander would be in the real world.

dasNdanger
November 15th, 2008, 08:08 AM
I know that some people like the "humor" in it while others like to look at a man oggling an attractive woman since "boys will be boys", but come on, writers!

How did this episode start out? With another "John <3 teh ladiez" joke. Oh, he took some (soft, hah!) scientists out with a jumper (it sounds like a volunteer mission). Oh, one of them is female and attractive. So what does he do? He volunteers to stay behind just so he can flirt with her (and/or stare at her creepily without flirting).

OK... what? I'm sorry, what? Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard, we know you're a flyboy, we know you're sex on legs, we know you like the ladies. But what?

You're the military commander of Atlantis. You shouldn't even be there. There are plenty of people with the gene on Atlantis who aren't a ranking senior member in a commanding position! From the sounds of it (and logic), you randomly volunteered to do it yourself instead of doing the more obvious: Sending someone else.

And once there,you stayed behind, not because there was a need for you to, but because you liked some chick.

It's OK to flirt with people left and right in your spare time. But while on duty? Not so much (though John doesn't seem to care about this). What if, while you're busy flirting , something were to happen back on Atlantis?

A foothoold/invasion? Explosion? An attack? Anything that requires the military commander to be present to prevent further deaths? People could die because you weren't there to prevent it because you felt like oggling some girl (who gave you the cold shoulder when you threw in a not-so-subtle pickup line, hah!)!

What if Kolya had chosen to attack the city directly (somehow) instead? What then? People could die and the city could fall because you were oggling some girl and needed 10 minutes to fly back to the city!

For the love of puppies, writers. We know you like women, you know you like to have Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard flirt with women. But can you stop having him flirt with women at the most inopportune (and inappropriate) times?!

He has a duty to Atlantis and to Earth. But, of course, chasing tail supersedes this.

Even Teyla disapproved.

Obviously, you don't know men.

My husband gets his most 'romantic' when: we are in the woods/a park/the zoo...our back yard...it doesn't matter how many people are around, either. (NOT that anything happens - just...that's when he starts making 'those' eyes at me.)

He also gets that romantic feeling when we are rushing out the door, late for an appointment, at his parent's house, and IN CHURCH.

So, yeah...Sheppard is a man. No matter how impractical his big brain may be telling him the situation is, his little brain is gonna win out in the end.

das

Aerilon
November 15th, 2008, 08:23 AM
Maybe they had already 'spent the night'. The scene we saw, was from the following day.

Orion Antreas
November 15th, 2008, 08:29 AM
I know that some people like the "humor" in it while others like to look at a man oggling an attractive woman since "boys will be boys", but come on, writers!

How did this episode start out? With another "John <3 teh ladiez" joke. Oh, he took some (soft, hah!) scientists out with a jumper (it sounds like a volunteer mission). Oh, one of them is female and attractive. So what does he do? He volunteers to stay behind just so he can flirt with her (and/or stare at her creepily without flirting).

OK... what? I'm sorry, what? Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard, we know you're a flyboy, we know you're sex on legs, we know you like the ladies. But what?

You're the military commander of Atlantis. You shouldn't even be there. There are plenty of people with the gene on Atlantis who aren't a ranking senior member in a commanding position! From the sounds of it (and logic), you randomly volunteered to do it yourself instead of doing the more obvious: Sending someone else.

And once there,you stayed behind, not because there was a need for you to, but because you liked some chick.

It's OK to flirt with people left and right in your spare time. But while on duty? Not so much (though John doesn't seem to care about this). What if, while you're busy flirting , something were to happen back on Atlantis?

A foothoold/invasion? Explosion? An attack? Anything that requires the military commander to be present to prevent further deaths? People could die because you weren't there to prevent it because you felt like oggling some girl (who gave you the cold shoulder when you threw in a not-so-subtle pickup line, hah!)!

What if Kolya had chosen to attack the city directly (somehow) instead? What then? People could die and the city could fall because you were oggling some girl and needed 10 minutes to fly back to the city!

For the love of puppies, writers. We know you like women, you know you like to have Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard flirt with women. But can you stop having him flirt with women at the most inopportune (and inappropriate) times?!

He has a duty to Atlantis and to Earth. But, of course, chasing tail supersedes this.

Even Teyla disapproved.

Ughh...

Why must people get so critical? It is a tv show. Guys are like that. I would know, I am one. (Although, I am more mature in how I act compared to others, but that is besides the point.) That is how guys are and it is a tv show. Characters need to be human after all which involves flaws. (Flaws as in this nature that 'most', not all, but 'most' men have like Sheppard.) They need to be 'real'.

So back to what I first said...

Ughh...

Flyboy
November 15th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Ughh...

Why must people get so critical? It is a tv show. Guys are like that. I would know, I am one. (Although, I am more mature in how I act compared to others, but that is besides the point.) That is how guys are and it is a tv show. Characters need to be human after all which involves flaws. (Flaws as in this nature that 'most', not all, but 'most' men have like Sheppard.) They need to be 'real'.

So back to what I first said...

Ughh...
True, but it would also be nice for sometimes these "flaws" to actually get picked up on by senior officers.

Orion Antreas
November 15th, 2008, 08:41 AM
Heh. See my post in your other thread. Besides that, I have to say, you have a lot of time on your hands to create all of these analysis/criticisms. No offense intended, just stating it looks like you have a lot of time.

Orion Antreas
November 15th, 2008, 08:45 AM
True, but it would also be nice for sometimes these "flaws" to actually get picked up on by senior officers.

True. That would be funny if Woolsey says, "John, focus!" Lol. But yeah, let the characters pick on the flaws to add some comic relief or in some other cases, develop the story. (For whatever flaws in characters there may be in order to develop the story.)

Flyboy
November 15th, 2008, 08:49 AM
I care little for the comic relief (as what we need relief FROM is the comic elements if you ask me), but yes, for plot definitely. I don't demand that all characters act as a proper military officer would, because not all military officers DO, but what I do want is a demonstration that even though a character does something, it's the wrong thing, and people realise this.

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 09:07 AM
Maybe they had already 'spent the night'. The scene we saw, was from the following day.

That's what I thought too. That Sheppard was out for the night and woke up the next day. Since he did wanna start 'tucking in' for the night. I'm guessing maybe the sun was going down or something. But I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. LOL

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 09:24 AM
Stuff.
I'm sorry, when did I say men aren't like that? Those who can't control their libidos at all, that is.

I said that it was inappropriate, especially for a man of John's position. John is a lousy commanding officer because of this.


Maybe they had already 'spent the night'. The scene we saw, was from the following day.
No, it's clear the female astrobiologist had no interest in John. When John suggested they go back to the jumper, she gave him a look that signified "What?! Pah!" and didn't even dignify him with an answer.


Ughh...

Why must people get so critical? It is a tv show.
Cop-out. It's a TV-show based on real life. Thus, we expect some realism.


Guys are like that. I would know, I am one.
You're not military commander of Atlantis. I'm a guy. I'm not like that.


That is how guys are and it is a tv show. Characters need to be human after all which involves flaws. (Flaws as in this nature that 'most', not all, but 'most' men have like Sheppard.) They need to be 'real'.
It's a glaring flaw that surfaces way too often and it's very unbecoming of a man of his position.


True, but it would also be nice for sometimes these "flaws" to actually get picked up on by senior officers.
Exactly. If anyone had bothered to check up on John's escapes through the years, he'd be relieved of his position. He's a good soldier, but a lousy commanding officer. Now that Elizabeth is gone and no longer there to help him, he'd be toast if anyone did a "Sheppard Audit".

Moao
November 15th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I have to agree with Fallen Angel, with even Ronon knowing John's reasons for helping the scientist, it wont be long before something like that becomes common knowledge on the city and people go around saying to each other...

"oh john is helping you?, he just wants to get in your pants...."

not a good rep for a commanding officer.

Plus he clearly made a pass at the female scientist, so what is she going to say when she goes back to the city, oh it was a fun trip and that creppy John guy hit on me...

also I am a guy as well and I am not like that, Orion Coran not everyone is like you, and that includes the male gender.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 10:18 AM
Plus he clearly made a pass at the female scientist, so what is she going to say when she goes back to the city, oh it was a fun trip and that creppy John guy hit on me...
Exactly. He suggested they go back to the jumper together to prepare for the night (despite the fact that the city is a brisk Jumper ride away) and she was clearly irked by it judging by her reaction and refusal to even give him an answer.

As I said earlier, I can see her telling people about it and the news spreading. And what then? It would be damaging for all parties. In the real world, that is. Since this is SGA, there'll be no consequences for John from this.

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 10:21 AM
Okay, this is just my opinion. I'm not trying to strong arm anyone to follow my said opinion. It is just my thought on the situation. Which I do disagree, but that's okay. I find nothing wrong with you having your own opinion about the situation. With that said, here it goes.

I think, to be honest, that it really was left up to interpretation. He couldn't been on, or off duty as far as we know because neither was stated. He could still eat with them in his off duty time and that would be why Rodney was asking about him. I do agree with that there. But he could've also been on duty. So, I think it's all really left up to you all to decide which you think goes. In my own opinion.

What I do believe though is that in my own opinion, he does make a good commander. He does what he has to to try and make sure everyone gets out of something alive. The A.I. knew that when the hallucination started because 'Kolya' mentioned killing the doctors and him failing in that aspect too. And I really don't think he's a bad guy for flirting. Bad pick up line sure. I agree to that. I don't think he's a bad commander for it though. I mean, a few people of power have made some rather.... bad decisions in real life doing their job. But they were still damned good at it. And to me, John isn't an exception to that. But that's just my opinion as I said.

Television, movies and books are all written to be seen by not just their point of view, but yours as well. So, what one person may see as a good thing, another may see as a bad or stupid thing. I accept that and have no issues with that. Cause no matter how well one tells a story, or how detailed, everyone is gonna see it in a different light. I mean, one could describe something in such detail that another couldn't possibly see anyone seeing it as something else, and yet there is always someone who does. No one can escape that. It happens. So, I have given my two cents on what I think of it. I don't wanna argue with anyone because everyone has the right to have their own opinion, in my own opinion.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 10:55 AM
I think, to be honest, that it really was left up to interpretation. He couldn't been on, or off duty as far as we know because neither was stated. He could still eat with them in his off duty time and that would be why Rodney was asking about him. I do agree with that there. But he could've also been on duty. So, I think it's all really left up to you all to decide which you think goes. In my own opinion.
By commander, I meant military commander of Atlantis. And as Flying Officer Bennett (who is in the British (or Canadian) air force (I think)) will attest to, John makes a horrible military leader.

John is a good soldier. But he's not a good military leader. Because military leaders are supposed to sit behind desks, supposed to stay back, the ones to make the decisions and have others obey them, not the one to constantly put their life on the line.

That and his philandering has at times cost us. It's only due to sheer dumb luck that it hasn't cost us more. If Larrin had been lying and her people were warmongers from outer space, his little impromptu tonsil hockey with her (yes, she kissed him first, but he kissed her back) could've cost us Atlantis (if they'd used the Ancient warship to go after Atlantis).

Not to mention that it's very unbecoming of a man of his age and position. He makes a great pilot and a great soldier. Military leader? Not so much.

There's also the very, very, very bad military decisions he keeps making. In "The Shrine", he took himself (military leader), Rodney (leader of the science department) and Jennifer (CMO) into Wraith-infested territory. Not one Hive, but two.

He did this fly throwing out a smoke-screen and hoping it would trick the Wraith. Why did he do this? There was nothing on that planet that really required them all to be there, as in no technology their were in dire need of.

No, it was just to have a picnic with Rodney and say goodbye before he died... and they weren't even sure of it was going to work! Here's a scenario: Jumper gets shot down, they all die, Atlantis is all of a sudden missing a military commander, leader of the science department and CMO.

Take that, Atlantis!

In "Whispers", he went with some hair-brained scheme to try to lure the creatures into the well and then blow it up. He activated the very thing that would lure them before he cranked the bucket up! He gave them a running start!

In "The Queen", he was all fine with "the plan" until it would risk Teyla's life. Then all of a sudden he tried to talk her out of it (or as other interpeted it "Tried to make sure she knew everything"). Possible fate of the entire galaxy in the balance, one of his friends might get killed, then it's a no-go.

In "First Contact", John became acting leader of Atlantis itself in Richard's absence. What does he do when the base comes under attack? That's right, he rushes into the battlefield! So if he were to croak, Atlantis would be without both its base leader ('til Richard came back and who knew how long that would take) and a military commander! It's not like he was on a mission and there was a lack of military personnel, either. He had the entire city full of them, but, noooo, he rushed off into combat to play the hero.

Then, he chose to stay behind with Radek while ordering everyone who didn't have to stay in the gate room to leave. Ok, so why did John have to be there? It's not like he knows how to read what's on the monitors (as far as we know). And it's not like he can't keep up contact with Radek through the radio!

Now, if John and Radek had died in that explosion, the base would be without the following:
Base commander - Richard Woolsey
Military commander - John Sheppard
Leader of the science department - Meredith Rodney McKay
2nd in command of the science department - Radek Zelenka

The line of succession would lead to, um... Lorne? I'm sure he'd be up for it in a situation where the base is in shambles, the gate is gone and a majority of the senior staff is dead, missing or out of contact!

And that's just what he's done lately. No, he does not make a great leader of the military of Atlantis. Because he lets his emotions get the best of him way, way too often (Hammond, for one, knew when to cut his losses and not go on that one-in-a-million rescue operation).

And his decisions are often not based on what a military leader would do but what a soldier would do. He's way too prone to putting himself in the line of fire, endangering his own life, with absolutely no regard to his own position.

Let's not even mention Chaya.

Leaders do not run head first into combat. They stay behind to direct things behind the scenes. John's unable to do this. This is why it's wholly unrealistic to have him as the military leader of Atlantis and why he makes such a terrible leader (his judgment is only slightly bad sometimes, it's the fact that he acts more like a soldier than as the military leader of Atlantis).


He does what he has to to try and make sure everyone gets out of something alive. The A.I. knew that when the hallucination started because 'Kolya' mentioned killing the doctors and him failing in that aspect too.
The hallucination was controlled by John in part. That part was probably his own mind working against him since he's so concerned about getting others out alive.

[QUOTE=SerenaSerenity;9235468]And I really don't think he's a bad guy for flirting. Bad pick up line sure. I agree to that. I don't think he's a bad commander for it though. I mean, a few people of power have made some rather.... bad decisions in real life doing their job. But they were still damned good at it. And to me, John isn't an exception to that. But that's just my opinion as I said.

Wayston
November 15th, 2008, 11:07 AM
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say any of that.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say any of that.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 11:10 AM
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say any of that.
So why did you formulate it as if someone had said what you just said when no one had said it?

Wayston
November 15th, 2008, 11:20 AM
ermmm... because I am a pervert?

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 11:32 AM
By commander, I meant military commander of Atlantis. And as Flying Officer Bennett (who is in the British (or Canadian) air force (I think)) will attest to, John makes a horrible military leader.

John is a good soldier. But he's not a good military leader. Because military leaders are supposed to sit behind desks, supposed to stay back, the ones to make the decisions and have others obey them, not the one to constantly put their life on the line.

That and his philandering has at times cost us. It's only due to sheer dumb luck that it hasn't cost us more. If Larrin had been lying and her people were warmongers from outer space, his little impromptu tonsil hockey with her (yes, she kissed him first, but he kissed her back) could've cost us Atlantis (if they'd used the Ancient warship to go after Atlantis).

Not to mention that it's very unbecoming of a man of his age and position. He makes a great pilot and a great soldier. Military leader? Not so much.

There's also the very, very, very bad military decisions he keeps making. In "The Shrine", he took himself (military leader), Rodney (leader of the science department) and Jennifer (CMO) into Wraith-infested territory. Not one Hive, but two.

He did this fly throwing out a smoke-screen and hoping it would trick the Wraith. Why did he do this? There was nothing on that planet that really required them all to be there, as in no technology their were in dire need of.

No, it was just to have a picnic with Rodney and say goodbye before he died... and they weren't even sure of it was going to work! Here's a scenario: Jumper gets shot down, they all die, Atlantis is all of a sudden missing a military commander, leader of the science department and CMO.

Take that, Atlantis!

In "Whispers", he went with some hair-brained scheme to try to lure the creatures into the well and then blow it up. He activated the very thing that would lure them before he cranked the bucket up! He gave them a running start!

In "The Queen", he was all fine with "the plan" until it would risk Teyla's life. Then all of a sudden he tried to talk her out of it (or as other interpeted it "Tried to make sure she knew everything"). Possible fate of the entire galaxy in the balance, one of his friends might get killed, then it's a no-go.

In "First Contact", John became acting leader of Atlantis itself in Richard's absence. What does he do when the base comes under attack? That's right, he rushes into the battlefield! So if he were to croak, Atlantis would be without both its base leader ('til Richard came back and who knew how long that would take) and a military commander! It's not like he was on a mission and there was a lack of military personnel, either. He had the entire city full of them, but, noooo, he rushed off into combat to play the hero.

Then, he chose to stay behind with Radek while ordering everyone who didn't have to stay in the gate room to leave. Ok, so why did John have to be there? It's not like he knows how to read what's on the monitors (as far as we know). And it's not like he can't keep up contact with Radek through the radio!

Now, if John and Radek had died in that explosion, the base would be without the following:
Base commander - Richard Woolsey
Military commander - John Sheppard
Leader of the science department - Meredith Rodney McKay
2nd in command of the science department - Radek Zelenka

The line of succession would lead to, um... Lorne? I'm sure he'd be up for it in a situation where the base is in shambles, the gate is gone and a majority of the senior staff is dead, missing or out of contact!

And that's just what he's done lately. No, he does not make a great leader of the military of Atlantis. Because he lets his emotions get the best of him way, way too often (Hammond, for one, knew when to cut his losses and not go on that one-in-a-million rescue operation).

And his decisions are often not based on what a military leader would do but what a soldier would do. He's way too prone to putting himself in the line of fire, endangering his own life, with absolutely no regard to his own position.

Let's not even mention Chaya.

Leaders do not run head first into combat. They stay behind to direct things behind the scenes. John's unable to do this. This is why it's wholly unrealistic to have him as the military leader of Atlantis and why he makes such a terrible leader (his judgment is only slightly bad sometimes, it's the fact that he acts more like a soldier than as the military leader of Atlantis).


The hallucination was controlled by John in part. That part was probably his own mind working against him since he's so concerned about getting others out alive.

Okay, and I don't see your opinion on this aspect wrong. I just view it differently is all. And a good leader wouldn't ask someone to do something they aren't willing to go out and do themselves in my own opinion. And yes, he's a good soldier. But to be honest, if you were a soldier and your friend was about to risk their life? How would you feel about that? I know I wouldn't feel to good about it. I'd rather do it myself then risk my friend's life and they probably would feel the same if the roles were reversed. Yes, some decisions are hard to make, but he honestly doesn't ask of anything from anyone that he wouldn't go out and do himself. And I see that as a plus.

Now, I have nothing against your opinion on the matter. You have your right to it and that's cool by me. I just view it differently. It's all good in my own mind. lol Yes, if he died, then they would be out of a commanding officer and it would indeed suck. But really, he could die just tripping and falling down all those stairs. Anythings possible. I mean, it would be ironic after all the suicide missions that he's gone on to be taken out by stairs. Actually that would really suck cause then he'd be gone and I'd cry. That's besides the point though. In my own opinion of course. And you have yours. I respect your opinion. *smiles* And I have no issues with it. To each their own and I do my best to live by that rule. *nods*

fumblesmcstupid
November 15th, 2008, 11:55 AM
It's funny how most people react when you question a characters Ethics or their idea of Appropriate Behavior.

In Inferno a Super Volcano was going to erupt and John and Rodney are flirting with Norina. *Eyeroll and Head Shake*

Travelers *OMG* *Shudders*

I understand the point of having the characters ACTING like the part of the Role they play.

John is the C.O. of Atlantis, so he needs to wait for R&R like the rest of soldiers and save it for vacations.

Keller is the CMO and ALL of Atlantis personnel are her patients so she needs to wait for off time to get some action as well.

All of the main characters are in positions of COMMAND and Should start acting like it!!

I know the writers are just casting aside all realism for DRAMA, but hey!

The excuse that this is a TV show or they live in another galaxy so they have to live like monks is not the point. They are aware of the responsibility that they are undertaking! If that means that they get some action every 3 months or however long it is between R&R then so be it. They are there to do a job! Not sleep their way through the populace.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Okay, I only read the first and last comments on this one but c'mon guys. This is Atlantis. They are practically on duty 24/7. And the thing about John being in a command position so it was far too lowly of him to come to the mainland/Atlantis might have been attacked/yada yada yada....John is not the only person in the whole city that can save the day for one thing. That takes away from everyone else's credit. He is a jumper ride away...which is remarkably fast. It doesn't hurt for him to go as long as he's not skimping on paperwork or something and if Woolsey doesn't have a problem with it, neither should you.

Now an instance of John thinking with his libido in a very inappropriate time, IMO, was when he shagged that blonde girl on an episode I can't recall the name of with the other Ancient city ship. That was soooo wrong. He was on duty and it was a mission. But this is John. He doesn't exactly follow rules all that well.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 01:21 PM
Stuff.
It's not about not being willing to do what he asks of others. It's about protocol, it's about being the leader. It's about not putting yourself in a situation where you could easily be killed. Then what will your subordinates do, without their leader there to lead them? Ask anyone with military experience, John is a bad military leader.


Okay, I only read the first and last comments on this one but c'mon guys. This is Atlantis. They are practically on duty 24/7. And the thing about John being in a command position so it was far too lowly of him to come to the mainland/Atlantis might have been attacked/yada yada yada....John is not the only person in the whole city that can save the day for one thing. That takes away from everyone else's credit. He is a jumper ride away...which is remarkably fast.
John is the military leader of Atlantis. If he doesn't want all of that responsibility, then he should resign from the position. He has a higher standard to contain (not hit on co-workers in icky ways like that, not skip out on his duties to chase some tail/not get so distracted someone can steal his gun if an attractive woman kisses him (and he kisses back)) and he has duties to fulfill (which, yes, does include sitting behind his desk and filling out paperwork).


It doesn't hurt for him to go as long as he's not skimping on paperwork or something and if Woolsey doesn't have a problem with it, neither should you.
The problem is why he skipped out that jumper ride. To put the moves on some girl.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 15th, 2008, 01:23 PM
I actually thought it was a nice touch to start things off on a light hearted note to contrast to what would happened later. It doesn't strike me as terribly outrageous, hasn't this sort of thing happened before? Sheppard has gone off base before when they could have had a no-name person do it instead.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 01:40 PM
lol I don't know if I'd call John's moves icky. Lame maybe, but not icky. Ya know, for being such a hot guy, he really is so socially inadequate. But it makes him funny.

I know his job contains paperwork. Jack O'Neill complained enough about it in SG1 that there's no way I could ever be in any doubt. Obviously Sheppard didn't have too much to do at the time otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the mainland. Period.

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 01:42 PM
It's not about not being willing to do what he asks of others. It's about protocol, it's about being the leader. It's about not putting yourself in a situation where you could easily be killed. Then what will your subordinates do, without their leader there to lead them? Ask anyone with military experience, John is a bad military leader.

And I don't see it that way. I'm not here to argue with you. I have my opinion and you have your own. And John isn't the only military leader who has ever gone on suicide missions and placed in positions where they are easily killed. Most of the great generals of our history went out onto the front lines and fought with their soldiers. In my opinion, the best leader is one that can inspire. And someone behind a desk filing out paperwork all the time isn't inspiring. Someone who is willing to do what he asks others to do, put his life on the line for his team and his friends to me is a true leader. That would inspire me to do greater things if I saw someone who was in command of me doing great things too. Maybe they are life threatening. But walking out the door, or going to sleep at night, or even driving is life threatening. No matter how safe you try to be. But this is my opinion and I'm not going to force my opinion on you. And no matter what you, or any one else says, I'm going to have my opinion. And I'm not gonna argue about it. lol You believe your right, and maybe you are. I'm not going to say your wrong. But I'm not going to change how I see it. I respect you, and your opinion. And everyone elses. No one will ever agree on everything.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by FallenAngelII
It's not about not being willing to do what he asks of others. It's about protocol, it's about being the leader. It's about not putting yourself in a situation where you could easily be killed. Then what will your subordinates do, without their leader there to lead them? Ask anyone with military experience, John is a bad military leader.


And I don't see it that way. I'm not here to argue with you. I have my opinion and you have your own. And John isn't the only military leader who has ever gone on suicide missions and placed in positions where they are easily killed. Most of the great generals of our history went out onto the front lines and fought with their soldiers. In my opinion, the best leader is one that can inspire. And someone behind a desk filing out paperwork all the time isn't inspiring. Someone who is willing to do what he asks others to do, put his life on the line for his team and his friends to me is a true leader. That would inspire me to do greater things if I saw someone who was in command of me doing great things too. Maybe they are life threatening. But walking out the door, or going to sleep at night, or even driving is life threatening. No matter how safe you try to be. But this is my opinion and I'm not going to force my opinion on you. And no matter what you, or any one else says, I'm going to have my opinion. And I'm not gonna argue about it. lol You believe your right, and maybe you are. I'm not going to say your wrong. But I'm not going to change how I see it. I respect you, and your opinion. And everyone elses. No one will ever agree on everything.

I can see both sides of the point here but I will say this. John is the military leader, yes. But his assignment was to lead the number one team. That is his job. As the highest ranking military officer, he also is the head of all the military assigned to Atlantis. So if you want to say he's a bad military example, you're welcome to it. It may not be the norm for the military leader to be in the thick of it but John's doing the job he was ASSIGNED to do. If his superiors thought that he should lead from the back, as they say, like General Hammond at the SGC did, then they would have him do that.

LoneStar1836
November 15th, 2008, 04:10 PM
I care little for the comic relief (as what we need relief FROM is the comic elements if you ask me), but yes, for plot definitely. I don't demand that all characters act as a proper military officer would, because not all military officers DO, but what I do want is a demonstration that even though a character does something, it's the wrong thing, and people realise this.Agreed.

As to the ep., well as soon as the others were questioning why Shepard had agreed to babysit some scientists, I knew exactly why he had before they cut to the reveal.

That gag has gotten old over the years. At this point, I expect nothing less from him. Anything approaching a higher level of maturity would be out of character. Yeah, I get it, he's a man, but can't the writers come up with a different shtick for him. Though doesn't matter now seeing as how the show is canceled.

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 04:14 PM
I can see both sides of the point here but I will say this. John is the military leader, yes. But his assignment was to lead the number one team. That is his job. As the highest ranking military officer, he also is the head of all the military assigned to Atlantis. So if you want to say he's a bad military example, you're welcome to it. It may not be the norm for the military leader to be in the thick of it but John's doing the job he was ASSIGNED to do. If his superiors thought that he should lead from the back, as they say, like General Hammond at the SGC did, then they would have him do that.

I agree with you there.

And well, if he sat back and did paperwork all day instead of what he does, then Woolsey wouldn't have a job. And I'm rather enjoying him on the show. *nod nod* Once again, my own personal opinion.

Reiko
November 15th, 2008, 05:39 PM
Hey ... on the upside, at least he's not going after Teyla. ;)

fumblesmcstupid
November 15th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Rodney called him "KIRK" for a reason! :)

SoulReaver
November 15th, 2008, 06:07 PM
I care little for the comic relief (as what we need relief FROM is the comic elements if you ask me),tragic relief ?

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 06:09 PM
I actually thought it was a nice touch to start things off on a light hearted note to contrast to what would happened later. It doesn't strike me as terribly outrageous, hasn't this sort of thing happened before? Sheppard has gone off base before when they could have had a no-name person do it instead.
The point is why he went off-base. It's a bad reason.


Stuff about opinion.
You don't seem to understand that this isn't merely my opinion. This is regulation. This is how military leaders of various military organizations all around the world (including those of the United States of America) work! This is what military commanders around the world do!

It doesn't matter what you nor I think. It's not my opinion. It's the real world. This is why John Sheppard is such a lousy military leader.

It's not opinion, it's fact.



I can see both sides of the point here but I will say this. John is the military leader, yes. But his assignment was to lead the number one team. That is his job. As the highest ranking military officer, he also is the head of all the military assigned to Atlantis. So if you want to say he's a bad military example, you're welcome to it. It may not be the norm for the military leader to be in the thick of it but John's doing the job he was ASSIGNED to do. If his superiors thought that he should lead from the back, as they say, like General Hammond at the SGC did, then they would have him do that.
He wasn't assigned to do it at all. He was assigned to be a grunt. Then Sumner died and he got promoted to military leader. Now, normally, the military leader would do what I've said they do. John chose not to. And Elizabeth, Sam, Richard, the IOA and the United States military just let him do it since the writers have no idea of how the military (USAF in John's case) in the real world and just make stuff up as they go.

We've never seen anyone go "This is what you are to do". We've only seen people tolerate what he does (though we've seen them questioning him as well).

If John was a real person, he'd been removed from his position a long time ago!

You and SerenaSerenity seem to have very limited knowledge of how the military works. I'm telling you, it doesn't work the way the show makes us believe it works. Atlantis is a horrendously badly written show from that perspective. Not realistic at all.

Jumper_One
November 15th, 2008, 06:10 PM
meh who cares? he's a guy, I thought it was great :P

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 06:13 PM
LOL who cares? he's a guy, I thought it was great :P
I really have no idea what kind of 40 yearold men you all know but most 40 yearold men I've known in my life don't run around hitting on people willy nilly while on missions, while on duty or run off to chase tail, leaving behind their duties when they hold important positions of responsibility, such as John's.

Soldiers trained in combat and psychological warfare also usually don't fall for the "Let's make-out"-trick and get disarmed.

Atlantis1
November 15th, 2008, 06:27 PM
I know that some people like the "humor" in it while others like to look at a man oggling an attractive woman since "boys will be boys", but come on, writers!

How did this episode start out? With another "John <3 teh ladiez" joke. Oh, he took some (soft, hah!) scientists out with a jumper (it sounds like a volunteer mission). Oh, one of them is female and attractive. So what does he do? He volunteers to stay behind just so he can flirt with her (and/or stare at her creepily without flirting).

OK... what? I'm sorry, what? Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard, we know you're a flyboy, we know you're sex on legs, we know you like the ladies. But what?

You're the military commander of Atlantis. You shouldn't even be there. There are plenty of people with the gene on Atlantis who aren't a ranking senior member in a commanding position! From the sounds of it (and logic), you randomly volunteered to do it yourself instead of doing the more obvious: Sending someone else.

And once there,you stayed behind, not because there was a need for you to, but because you liked some chick.

It's OK to flirt with people left and right in your spare time. But while on duty? Not so much (though John doesn't seem to care about this). What if, while you're busy flirting , something were to happen back on Atlantis?

A foothoold/invasion? Explosion? An attack? Anything that requires the military commander to be present to prevent further deaths? People could die because you weren't there to prevent it because you felt like oggling some girl (who gave you the cold shoulder when you threw in a not-so-subtle pickup line, hah!)!

What if Kolya had chosen to attack the city directly (somehow) instead? What then? People could die and the city could fall because you were oggling some girl and needed 10 minutes to fly back to the city!

For the love of puppies, writers. We know you like women, you know you like to have Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard flirt with women. But can you stop having him flirt with women at the most inopportune (and inappropriate) times?!

He has a duty to Atlantis and to Earth. But, of course, chasing tail supersedes this.

Even Teyla disapproved.

Seems to me too many people make too much of this issue. I saw alot more going on in this episode. It helped to set up getting Sheppard to the mainland so that part of the plot line could play out. I think it is safe to assume outer pilots usually toke the scientists to the mainland. I agree they could have found a better way to get Sheppard to the mainland but I am not the writer.

I see people post how they wish the shows had more original writing. I feel the same way about so much attack posts on Sheppard. The character like all humans is not purfect.

Col.Foley
November 15th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Who knows, maybe the program overode his brain a little bit....actually it would have been cool had we found out that the program was also mimicking the girl as well. :P
and, he is a very hands on type of guy. (no pun intended):P

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 07:30 PM
You don't seem to understand that this isn't merely my opinion. This is regulation. This is how military leaders of various military organizations all around the world (including those of the United States of America) work! This is what military commanders around the world do!

It doesn't matter what you nor I think. It's not my opinion. It's the real world. This is why John Sheppard is such a lousy military leader.

It's not opinion, it's fact.


He wasn't assigned to do it at all. He was assigned to be a grunt. Then Sumner died and he got promoted to military leader. Now, normally, the military leader would do what I've said they do. John chose not to. And Elizabeth, Sam, Richard, the IOA and the United States military just let him do it since the writers have no idea of how the military (USAF in John's case) in the real world and just make stuff up as they go.

We've never seen anyone go "This is what you are to do". We've only seen people tolerate what he does (though we've seen them questioning him as well).

If John was a real person, he'd been removed from his position a long time ago!

You and SerenaSerenity seem to have very limited knowledge of how the military works. I'm telling you, it doesn't work the way the show makes us believe it works. Atlantis is a horrendously badly written show from that perspective. Not realistic at all.

Okay, whatever. Like I said, I'm not here to argue with you.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 07:48 PM
You don't seem to understand that this isn't merely my opinion. This is regulation. This is how military leaders of various military organizations all around the world (including those of the United States of America) work! This is what military commanders around the world do!

It doesn't matter what you nor I think. It's not my opinion. It's the real world. This is why John Sheppard is such a lousy military leader.

It's not opinion, it's fact.


He wasn't assigned to do it at all. He was assigned to be a grunt. Then Sumner died and he got promoted to military leader. Now, normally, the military leader would do what I've said they do. John chose not to. And Elizabeth, Sam, Richard, the IOA and the United States military just let him do it since the writers have no idea of how the military (USAF in John's case) in the real world and just make stuff up as they go.

We've never seen anyone go "This is what you are to do". We've only seen people tolerate what he does (though we've seen them questioning him as well).

If John was a real person, he'd been removed from his position a long time ago!

You and SerenaSerenity seem to have very limited knowledge of how the military works. I'm telling you, it doesn't work the way the show makes us believe it works. Atlantis is a horrendously badly written show from that perspective. Not realistic at all.

Okay. I know a little about the military but admittedly, I'm no expert. I do know that the Air Force is in constant contact with the show to make sure that what they do is appropriate. Now I know that the producers don't always go along with their recommendations.

For example: I saw a behind the scenes things where in Foothold, the Air Force guy said - that would never happen. Not sure which producer it was, but he said, 'What would never happen?' Air Force guy- 'They would never get out of the mountain. We wouldn't let that happen.' And the producer said, "So you're saying that if aliens ever got into a secret underground facility of yours, it wouldn't get out." AF guy-Yes.

It was really funny. But I'm getting off track. Where was I? Oh. The Air Force has always shown their admiration and backing of the tv show. It's not perfect but its a tv show.

I think the main reason we haven't seen many people tell John what to do is because if you think about it, Rodney really makes most of the plans...which until just this second, I hadn't realized either. But think about it. When they are in a crisis, who do they turn to? Rodney. He thinks up a brilliant plan and then they execute it. So really Rodney's the one with the power.

Azdgari
November 15th, 2008, 07:54 PM
I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet: Perhaps John had a "hallucination" of the female scientist being interested in him, which influenced his decisions? Or some other AI-induced hallucination?

Wouldn't that explain pretty much everything, and be in-line with the plot?

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Okay. I know a little about the military but admittedly, I'm no expert. I do know that the Air Force is in constant contact with the show to make sure that what they do is appropriate. Now I know that the producers don't always go along with their recommendations.

For example: I saw a behind the scenes things where in Foothold, the Air Force guy said - that would never happen. Not sure which producer it was, but he said, 'What would never happen?' Air Force guy- 'They would never get out of the mountain. We wouldn't let that happen.' And the producer said, "So you're saying that if aliens ever got into a secret underground facility of yours, it wouldn't get out." AF guy-Yes.

It was really funny. But I'm getting off track. Where was I? Oh. The Air Force has always shown their admiration and backing of the tv show. It's not perfect but its a tv show.

I think the main reason we haven't seen many people tell John what to do is because if you think about it, Rodney really makes most of the plans...which until just this second, I hadn't realized either. But think about it. When they are in a crisis, who do they turn to? Rodney. He thinks up a brilliant plan and then they execute it. So really Rodney's the one with the power.

Actually, that is very true. I do know that. They have always been good with the U.S Military. And even the Navy helped out with Continuum.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 08:06 PM
I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet: Perhaps John had a "hallucination" of the female scientist being interested in him, which influenced his decisions? Or some other AI-induced hallucination?

Wouldn't that explain pretty much everything, and be in-line with the plot?

Well as far as I could tell, she wasn't interested in him. In her plants, yes. In him, not so much.

And while it is a good idea about it being a hallucination, I don't think so since Ronon and Teyla knew of John's going to the mainland with the scientists.

Col.Foley
November 15th, 2008, 08:11 PM
I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet: Perhaps John had a "hallucination" of the female scientist being interested in him, which influenced his decisions? Or some other AI-induced hallucination?

Wouldn't that explain pretty much everything, and be in-line with the plot?
Welcome to the forum. :)
And yeah. I thought of this too, and it makes a lot of sense. I was even going to do a thread, but since you brought it up. I think that this would have been very likely, and very easy to do with the plot wise, and the rest of what was going on in the episode. And could have even made more sense.
My thought was...since the scientist was obviously real...have the AI make a noise leading Shep away, and then, have her basically seduce him and keep him occupied for a couple of hours.
Of course that would have angered a certain percentage of the fan base no end. :P

DragonLadyK
November 15th, 2008, 11:23 PM
A) Taking Rodney in "The Shrine" doesn't count because not only was he no use to anyone as he was but Emergency Backup Rodney (he's about yea tall and answers to the name of "Radek") was still on the city.

B) John Sheppard is the gayest thing in uniform and nothing can make me see the character as anything else. Sheppard does go a little overboard playing on the Kirk routine -- as so often happens with closet doors; notice he's socially akward with the girls but not with the boys? -- but as a CO in the military, which is the worse rep to have: skirt-chaser or homosexual?

If I was to say Sheppard made a lousy approximation of a military leader for something, I'd be far more concerned about his habit of completely ignoring orders than his faked skirt-chasing. And the non-regulation hair. And the not planning for things to go "sideways." Especially the not planning for things to go sideways in "Whispers." And not killing Weir outright in "Lifeline."

C) Remember the opening scene of "Tracker"? John naturally assumed Rodney would spend his day off with John and was pissed when he didn't. Therefore it is logical to infer that Rodney would also expect John to spend his day off with the team. It's not stated clearly one way or the other, so either interpretation is valid (especially since this TPTB is not so good with the detail).

DragonLady

Detox
November 16th, 2008, 01:11 AM
Wow FallenAngelII... you seem to have a lot of time to waste writing so much about absolutely nothing.

fumblesmcstupid
November 16th, 2008, 01:33 AM
It might be nothing to a lot of people!

But when you see inconsistency in your face all the time, even if it just bugs you...it's not nothing!

Jonzey
November 16th, 2008, 05:58 AM
It might be nothing to a lot of people!

But when you see inconsistency in your face all the time, even if it just bugs you...it's not nothing!

Ah, but if it's an inconsistency you see all the time, it's not really an inconsistency, is it?


On topic, I had not problems with it. There was nothing to indicate John was needed back on Atlantis. And past experience shows us that if the city was attacked, the mainland is the best place to be for him to stage a secret counter-attack.

Oh, and I do love how it's John's fault because he's meant to be the military commander, AND leader of the main off-world team, not someone higher up for not assigning a proper military commander.

Stargantic
November 16th, 2008, 06:02 AM
What's the big deal? Human nature!!! Just because he's in charge doesn't make him human. Five years without a real relationship is a long time, the writers are just making him human. More realistic this way.
Woolsey created his sexual fanatasy!!!Remember that!

FallenAngelII
November 16th, 2008, 07:44 AM
Okay. I know a little about the military but admittedly, I'm no expert. I do know that the Air Force is in constant contact with the show to make sure that what they do is appropriate. Now I know that the producers don't always go along with their recommendations.
Everyone on Gateworld who's been in any kind of military are unanimous: John Sheppard makes a horrible commanding officer.

The writers have been overriding facts all throughout Atlantis when it comes to John.


It was really funny. But I'm getting off track. Where was I? Oh. The Air Force has always shown their admiration and backing of the tv show. It's not perfect but its a tv show.
The problem is that John Sheppard is so wholly unrealistic it ruins the enjoyment of anyone who knows how the military works. Suspension of disbelief can only take you s ofar.


I think the main reason we haven't seen many people tell John what to do is because if you think about it, Rodney really makes most of the plans...which until just this second, I hadn't realized either. But think about it. When they are in a crisis, who do they turn to? Rodney. He thinks up a brilliant plan and then they execute it. So really Rodney's the one with the power.
What does this have to do with anything?


I'm surprised nobody has brought this up yet: Perhaps John had a "hallucination" of the female scientist being interested in him, which influenced his decisions? Or some other AI-induced hallucination?

Wouldn't that explain pretty much everything, and be in-line with the plot?
Why would he see such a hallucination way, way before anyone else saw a hallucination and then everything change entirely once they got to the mainland instead of him hallucination them going on some kind of outdoors date?

His mind wanted to torture itself, after all. Why have some girl show interest? What, her turning him down = torture?

Also, for that matter, it is still a ****ty reason to abandon Atlantis to go chase some tail, even if they did show interest in the first place.

This is all empty speculation without any facts to back it up, BTW. So we can just agree to disagree on it.


A) Taking Rodney in "The Shrine" doesn't count because not only was he no use to anyone as he was but Emergency Backup Rodney (he's about yea tall and answers to the name of "Radek") was still on the city.
Why does it it not count? He piled up half of the senior staff of Atlantis on a possible suicide mission just to say "good bye". That was the main purpose of the mission, after all. They didn't even know if it the shrine worked enough to let them even say goodbye. John had no way of knowing there'd be Ancient technology there. Did I mention the two hives? It doesn't matter if Radek was still on Atlantis, John risked the lives of half of the senior staff of Atlantis.


B) John Sheppard is the gayest thing in uniform and nothing can make me see the character as anything else. Sheppard does go a little overboard playing on the Kirk routine -- as so often happens with closet doors; notice he's socially akward with the girls but not with the boys? -- but as a CO in the military, which is the worse rep to have: skirt-chaser or homosexual?
Why does this matter? What's so "gay" about him, anyway, besides the hair and the McShep vibes?


If I was to say Sheppard made a lousy approximation of a military leader for something, I'd be far more concerned about his habit of completely ignoring orders than his faked skirt-chasing.
But the thing is that he doesn't receive orders on the show very often. Most of the time, it comes from the base commander and he follows those. But that just makes him a soldier who doesn't follow orders well sometimes. And it's not like anyone didn't already know that. His inability to do what military leaders do is much worse because that means he's unable to even follow his own job description.

It's not contempt, it's incompetence.


And the non-regulation hair. And the not planning for things to go "sideways." Especially the not planning for things to go sideways in "Whispers." And not killing Weir outright in "Lifeline."
I gave him hell for "Whispers". I made a thread about it. I pointed out his mistakes. I just didn't delve that deeply into it in this thread.


C) Remember the opening scene of "Tracker"? John naturally assumed Rodney would spend his day off with John and was pissed when he didn't. Therefore it is logical to infer that Rodney would also expect John to spend his day off with the team. It's not stated clearly one way or the other, so either interpretation is valid (especially since this TPTB is not so good with the detail).
Yes, but the word "day off" was used in "Tracker". It wasn't here. And when "day off" isn't mentioned, we must assume they're on-duty.

Also, doesn't matter. The leader of the military chasing tail among their co-workers with corny pick-up lines, flying off the to the mainland, shirking his duties for a chance at tail, that's going to lower morale and respect even if it's on his time off.

A good little flirty comment back at the base? Not that bad. "Hey, I used my power to get myself on this escort mission so I could suggest we roll around naked in a jumper!" - very.



On topic, I had not problems with it. There was nothing to indicate John was needed back on Atlantis.
John is not psychic. He doesn't know when something might go wrong.


Oh, and I do love how it's John's fault because he's meant to be the military commander, AND leader of the main off-world team, not someone higher up for not assigning a proper military commander.
Oh yes, since someone assigned him, John cannot be held responsible for what he does? Yes, the people who assigned him and keep him in his position are clearly nuts and it's entirely illogical that he's still the military commander of Atlantis even after all these years. I said this. Doesn't mean it still isn't John's fault that he acts like he does.


What's the big deal? Human nature!!! Just because he's in charge doesn't make him human. Five years without a real relationship is a long time, the writers are just making him human. More realistic this way.
Woolsey created his sexual fanatasy!!!Remember that!
I don't know what 40 yearold males in important positions such as military commander of one of human's most important expeditions ever you know, but those I know, those who aren't even in important positions, don't flirt with anything that moves and shirk his duties in order to do so.

It's a very stupid flaw.

Also, Woolsey's hallucination was his ideal woman. But what did he do? He treated her with respect, she took the initiative and he didn't shirk his duties in order to flirt with her!

kymeric
November 16th, 2008, 10:52 AM
I know that some people like the "humor" in it while others like to look at a man oggling an attractive woman since "boys will be boys", but come on, writers!

How did this episode start out? With another "John <3 teh ladiez" joke. Oh, he took some (soft, hah!) scientists out with a jumper (it sounds like a volunteer mission). Oh, one of them is female and attractive. So what does he do? He volunteers to stay behind just so he can flirt with her (and/or stare at her creepily without flirting).

OK... what? I'm sorry, what? Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard, we know you're a flyboy, we know you're sex on legs, we know you like the ladies. But what?

You're the military commander of Atlantis. You shouldn't even be there. There are plenty of people with the gene on Atlantis who aren't a ranking senior member in a commanding position! From the sounds of it (and logic), you randomly volunteered to do it yourself instead of doing the more obvious: Sending someone else.

And once there,you stayed behind, not because there was a need for you to, but because you liked some chick.

It's OK to flirt with people left and right in your spare time. But while on duty? Not so much (though John doesn't seem to care about this). What if, while you're busy flirting , something were to happen back on Atlantis?

A foothoold/invasion? Explosion? An attack? Anything that requires the military commander to be present to prevent further deaths? People could die because you weren't there to prevent it because you felt like oggling some girl (who gave you the cold shoulder when you threw in a not-so-subtle pickup line, hah!)!

What if Kolya had chosen to attack the city directly (somehow) instead? What then? People could die and the city could fall because you were oggling some girl and needed 10 minutes to fly back to the city!

For the love of puppies, writers. We know you like women, you know you like to have Lieutenant Colonel John Sheppard flirt with women. But can you stop having him flirt with women at the most inopportune (and inappropriate) times?!

He has a duty to Atlantis and to Earth. But, of course, chasing tail supersedes this.

Even Teyla disapproved.


Lol, just because youre amish dosent mean everyone is. Ppl are different, deal.

TragicComedy
November 16th, 2008, 12:48 PM
FallenAngelII, My comments about Rodney being the one in power was me being tongue in cheek sarcastic about this whole conversation. ;)

As for everything else...which WOW, there was a lot, you think that Sheppard is an idiotic ******** that should have been shipped back to Earth and probably back to Antarctica a long time ago and I think that Sheppard is a human being and does his job well, even if at times he has issues with authority that deserve some black marks.

Now let's shake hands and agree to happily disagree.

Agent_Dark
November 16th, 2008, 01:14 PM
Wow FallenAngelII... you seem to have a lot of time to waste writing so much about absolutely nothing.

lol

Jill_Ion
November 16th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Ah, but if we did that, TragicComedy, then FAII wouldn't have anything to do!

:lol:

FallenAngelII
November 16th, 2008, 01:28 PM
Lol, just because youre amish dosent mean everyone is. Ppl are different, deal.
Yeah, people are different. And people in John's profession try to act professional.


FallenAngelII, My comments about Rodney being the one in power was me being tongue in cheek sarcastic about this whole conversation. ;)

As for everything else...which WOW, there was a lot, you think that Sheppard is an idiotic ******** that should have been shipped back to Earth and probably back to Antarctica a long time ago and I think that Sheppard is a human being and does his job well, even if at times he has issues with authority that deserve some black marks.

Now let's shake hands and agree to happily disagree.
I'm sorry, have you read my posts? You should sometimes. Nowhere in the mdoes it say he's an idiotic ******* who should be shipped back to Earth. I said that he's grossly incompetent for his position and that he should be relieved of it. He is, however, a great soldier, so that doesn't mean he should leave Atlantis or lose leadership of his team.

Command the military contingent of Atlantis? Not so much. In future, please read through my posts before replying to them and don't assume things when you don't.

TragicComedy
November 16th, 2008, 01:30 PM
Ah, but if we did that, TragicComedy, then FAII wouldn't have anything to do!

:lol:

I don't know about that. I don't think we should resort to name calling or anything on here but that's just me.

But I do want to say that I love the Joe Flanigan quote you have on there about reality tv. I died laughing when I read that! And I so agree with him.

TragicComedy
November 16th, 2008, 01:36 PM
I'm sorry, have you read my posts? You should sometimes. Nowhere in the mdoes it say he's an idiotic ******* who should be shipped back to Earth. I said that he's grossly incompetent for his position and that he should be relieved of it. He is, however, a great soldier, so that doesn't mean he should leave Atlantis or lose leadership of his team.

Command the military contingent of Atlantis? Not so much. In future, please read through my posts before replying to them and don't assume things when you don't.

*holds hands up in an appeasing gesture* Excuse me. I'm so sorry I assumed.

jenks
November 16th, 2008, 01:42 PM
You better be.

TragicComedy
November 16th, 2008, 01:47 PM
You better be.

;)

SerenaSerenity
November 16th, 2008, 02:26 PM
Yes, but the word "day off" was used in "Tracker". It wasn't here. And when "day off" isn't mentioned, we must assume they're on-duty.

I just have a question. Why must we assume he's on duty? It wasn't stated, so it was really left open for interpretation. You wanna believe he's on duty, go for it. I happen to believe differently. I really don't see how myself or anyone else believing he was off duty is a really big deal.

I have already agreed to disagree, back when I said I didn't argue about it. lol Cause I don't. I just wanna know why it's so important that everyone assumes he was on duty is all. *nod nod*

That is all I will say. Cause in all honesty, I still assume he was off duty and that isn't gonna change. So, agreeing to disagree I think is the best solution. I'm just curious is all. *nod nod* Nothing against anyone's opinion of the situation.

Jill_Ion
November 16th, 2008, 03:33 PM
I don't know about that. I don't think we should resort to name calling or anything on here but that's just me.

But I do want to say that I love the Joe Flanigan quote you have on there about reality tv. I died laughing when I read that! And I so agree with him.

Thanks! :) Who's calling names?

MCH
November 16th, 2008, 03:54 PM
You know what, ok John does do this often, yes he does like the ladies, but you need to get off his back. You're just nitpicking at the first five minutes of the episode, completely forgetting the rest of it. The man put himself through hell. I don't blame him for trying to find a way to be happy. If that just happens to be flirting with the latest girl, so what. You talk about him like he's just some macho man when there's so much more.
Also, his decision to accompany the scientist, or even the scientists' decision to go to the mainland, could have been influenced by the AI. We only know for sure that Woolsey, McKay, and Shepherd were under its influence, but it could have been the AI's plan to have an attractive female scientist go to the mainland, since the AI knows what men like.

Now that I agree totally with. That makes sense to me. The AI has chosen the command people who could firstly oppose the AI plan and secondly could help with the AI plan.
It could be the AI observed Atlantis over a period of time, so that if he showed up and said hi I'm AI, Atlantis or more likely the IOA or Stargate command would want to investigate and question. The AI job was to make sure the pod could leave, and so concentrated on Shepherd Woolsey and Rodney to make that happen.
One other thought if AI had got to know them well by observing he may have thought they would be sympathetic to the AI mission and through their hallucinations help without involvng the higher command.

MCH

FallenAngelII
November 16th, 2008, 09:27 PM
I just have a question. Why must we assume he's on duty? It wasn't stated, so it was really left open for interpretation. You wanna believe he's on duty, go for it. I happen to believe differently. I really don't see how myself or anyone else believing he was off duty is a really big deal.
How often are the characters off-duty? Almost never. When they are, it's usually said. I'll assume he's on-duty unless it's stated otherwise or made absolutely clear (like, say, if they were to randomly go fishing or hang out at one of the piers).

Didn't we already agree to disagree on this point? I haven't fought you on it for a long time. Yes, we're free to interpret. I interpret it as him being on duty, you interpret it as him being off.

Tell, why must you assume that he was off duty?


I have already agreed to disagree, back when I said I didn't argue about it. lol Cause I don't. I just wanna know why it's so important that everyone assumes he was on duty is all. *nod nod*
How is your interpretation that much more valid than mine? Tell ,em why is it so important you assume he was off duty?


That is all I will say. Cause in all honesty, I still assume he was off duty and that isn't gonna change.
Doesn't matter. He still went on that mission (because it was a mission), be it on his spare time or not, seemingly for the sole purpose of hitting on what's-her-name and then dropped one cheezy and yucky pick-up line that even she found insulting.

If she tells anyone, morale and respect for John and the military will drop.

FallenAngelII
November 16th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Now that I agree totally with. That makes sense to me. The AI has chosen the command people who could firstly oppose the AI plan and secondly could help with the AI plan.
It could be the AI observed Atlantis over a period of time, so that if he showed up and said hi I'm AI, Atlantis or more likely the IOA or Stargate command would want to investigate and question. The AI job was to make sure the pod could leave, and so concentrated on Shepherd Woolsey and Rodney to make that happen.
One other thought if AI had got to know them well by observing he may have thought they would be sympathetic to the AI mission and through their hallucinations help without involvng the higher command.

MCH
Oh, regarding that. I could buy that the AI was influencing John's mind before "Kolya" showed up (but there's absolutely no indication of such). But Parrish & Token Hot Chick?

Not so much. For one thing, there was absolutely no reason to have Parrish and that girl there (if you're the AI). I doubt two astrobiologists will have anything to say in the matter of what to do with the Sakari probe.

So why exert more power and time to influence two people? We know its powers aren't limitless and its illusions will eventually fail. And nothing indicated Parrish & Girl were hallucinating.

metabog
November 17th, 2008, 02:36 AM
I know, I hate that as well.

rsanchez
November 17th, 2008, 06:55 AM
No offense, but you have way too much time to be hating on one character on a minor tv show (yes Atlantis junkies, it is a minor tv show). Why do you have to keep criticizing every little action John does with a girl? And by now everyone knows your preprogrammed response: "It's unbecoming of a military commander." I'm sure some of your posts took more than a few minutes to compose, considering just how many opinions you trash in some of the posts. Find something better to do with your time than trying to force everyone to accept that your opinion is the only correct opinion.

Kratos_Goauld_of_War
November 17th, 2008, 10:15 AM
I never realized that Sheppard was the Military commander of Atlantis. I always assumed (and I may have missed when it was stated) that the big guy in charge of the expedition was, you know, in charge. I assumed the highest ranking guy (Who is Caldwell, if he was ever there) was more in an advisory role to the civilian CO's. Again I assume Carter did the whole She-bang.

As for Him being offworld. I agree. It's a plot device, and not the greatest but it worked. It really is only 5 minutes of a really neat episode.

The whole deal with the scientist lady seemed more like she was way more excited about her job and probably wasn't paying too much attention to Johnny boy. She probably assumed he wanted her to actualy, you know, set up camp and gave him the "Are you crazy this is an amazing discovery" look that all scientists seem to give other people on this show when something neat happens.

Or maybe she interpreted it correctly and gave him the same look as a sort of polite brush off so there would be less awkwardness overall.

I dunno, some thoughts I suppose. This first 5 minutes can be read in a dozen ways. Whatever way makes you happy go for it and enjoy (or don't) the rest of the episode.

SerenaSerenity
November 17th, 2008, 12:22 PM
How often are the characters off-duty? Almost never. When they are, it's usually said. I'll assume he's on-duty unless it's stated otherwise or made absolutely clear (like, say, if they were to randomly go fishing or hang out at one of the piers).

Didn't we already agree to disagree on this point? I haven't fought you on it for a long time. Yes, we're free to interpret. I interpret it as him being on duty, you interpret it as him being off.

Tell, why must you assume that he was off duty?


How is your interpretation that much more valid than mine? Tell ,em why is it so important you assume he was off duty?


Doesn't matter. He still went on that mission (because it was a mission), be it on his spare time or not, seemingly for the sole purpose of hitting on what's-her-name and then dropped one cheezy and yucky pick-up line that even she found insulting.

If she tells anyone, morale and respect for John and the military will drop.

Because there isn't anything indicating one or the other and so I'm just interpreting it as I see it. Just as you are interpreting it just as you see it. I hold nothing against you for that. That's fine, you saw the show as you did, and I saw it differently. I just don't like being told that I must believe something. Maybe I misinterpreted and if I did, then I apologize. That was all I was getting at.

FallenAngelII
November 18th, 2008, 07:54 AM
No offense, but you have way too much time to be hating on one character on a minor tv show (yes Atlantis junkies, it is a minor tv show). Why do you have to keep criticizing every little action John does with a girl? And by now everyone knows your preprogrammed response: "It's unbecoming of a military commander." I'm sure some of your posts took more than a few minutes to compose, considering just how many opinions you trash in some of the posts. Find something better to do with your time than trying to force everyone to accept that your opinion is the only correct opinion.
I don't criticize every little thing John does. What you just said is libel (i.e. lies).

If he just flirts with some woman, who am I to judge? He has a right to flirt around. The problem is when he flirts around or lets his libido get the best of him at inopportune or inappropriate times.

Larrin kissing John while they're on friendly terms and John kissing back = Nobody cares
Larrin, who'd locked John up, tortured him, threatened his life, etc., kisses John and John kisses back, allowing her to steal his gun = Bad

John hitting on female astrobiologist = Nobody cares
John using his position to get to be the one to take her off world and then dropping not only a come on but a blatant proposition = Bad


Because there isn't anything indicating one or the other and so I'm just interpreting it as I see it. Just as you are interpreting it just as you see it. I hold nothing against you for that. That's fine, you saw the show as you did, and I saw it differently. I just don't like being told that I must believe something. Maybe I misinterpreted and if I did, then I apologize. That was all I was getting at.
I never once told you you had to believe what I believe. I only named information which I believe supports my supposition of what occurred.



The whole deal with the scientist lady seemed more like she was way more excited about her job and probably wasn't paying too much attention to Johnny boy. She probably assumed he wanted her to actualy, you know, set up camp and gave him the "Are you crazy this is an amazing discovery" look that all scientists seem to give other people on this show when something neat happens.
No, I definitely think she as disgusted. For one thing, why would she give him a look if she just thought he was crazy for suggesting they not spend more time with the plant?

For another, she didn't say it was an amazing discovery, she's not "into" it as Parrish is. For another, she didn't even give John an answer. She gave him a look, ignored him and then turned to Parrish, all smiles and quasi-patronizing.

Stargantic
November 18th, 2008, 01:28 PM
"I said that he's grossly incompetent for his position and that he should be relieved of it."

Do you know this personally or are you just watching TV like the rest of us? Remember TV!!!!! I doubt they would leave him in his current position if he was "grossly incompetent".

rsanchez
November 18th, 2008, 02:59 PM
They were suggesting putting someone else in his position earlier when Caldwell arrived, but thanks to Elizabeth he was both allowed to stay and promoted to Lt. Col. I guess he also grew on Carter and is on Woolsey's good side, so based on their recommendations he remains on Atlantis. He has proven himself capable in command and willing to take risks, but I guess no one has yet complained that he is the "manly man," even though, judging from Ronon in this episode, it is at least known throughout Atlantis.

SerenaSerenity
November 18th, 2008, 03:06 PM
I never once told you you had to believe what I believe. I only named information which I believe supports my supposition of what occurred.

I'm just saying that, when you said then "we must assume they're on-duty," it felt to me as if you said I had to believe that he was on duty.

Like I said though, if I misinterpreted it, then I apologise.

FallenAngelII
November 18th, 2008, 03:07 PM
"I said that he's grossly incompetent for his position and that he should be relieved of it."

Do you know this personally or are you just watching TV like the rest of us? Remember TV!!!!! I doubt they would leave him in his current position if he was "grossly incompetent".
Anyone who has any insight into how the military (especially the American military) works knows that he is grossly incompetent for his position. I suggest you educate yourself on this matter.

Why is he allowed to stay the military leader of Atlantis? Because the writers suck. And I'm so sick and tired of "This is TV!". Doesn't mean there can't be even a modicum of realism in it, especially when there are elements in it based on real life.


They were suggesting putting someone else in his position earlier when Caldwell arrived, but thanks to Elizabeth he was both allowed to stay and promoted to Lt. Col. I guess he also grew on Carter and is on Woolsey's good side, so based on their recommendations he remains on Atlantis. He has proven himself capable in command and willing to take risks, but I guess no one has yet complained that he is the "manly man," even though, judging from Ronon in this episode, it is at least known throughout Atlantis.
He makes many, many mistakes. The only reason why people don't die from them is because he gets lucky. His mistakes aren't mistakes as in "Either choice could turn up either way". This mistakes are mistakes which go against regulations. He doesn't act like a commanding officer at all, more like a soldier.

He doesn't care about regulations, rules or anything sometimes. And his "conduct unbecoming of an officer" is a phrase he'd hear on a weekly basis if the show was even slightly realistic (as in not necessarily illegal, but "bad" enough to get fired (discharged)).

Flyboy
November 18th, 2008, 03:13 PM
[swans in]


Anyone who has any insight into how the military (especially the American military) works knows that he is grossly incompetent for his position. I suggest you educate yourself on this matter.



FAII speaks truth.

[swans out]

Hong3103
November 18th, 2008, 05:20 PM
How is it that a Helo pilot is leading teams on mission. You'd think someone with Infantry or Spec Ops knowledge would running them. I know Marine Officers, regardless of their main job train as grunts so they are at least familiar with basic infantry tactics. I don't think the Air Force does this with their officers.

I agree with some of Shepards conduct. I'm not one to be anal retentive when it comes to rules and regulations concerning the guys I led (when I was in) but even Shepard can be a bit too lax. Don't get me wrong, I like the Shepard but going on a mission just to flirt with a girl... Not something a Lt. Col would be doing on duty. The girl wasn't even that attractive...

Repli!kat
November 18th, 2008, 05:35 PM
I agree with some of Shepards conduct. I'm not one to be anal retentive when it comes to rules and regulations concerning the guys I led (when I was in) but even Shepard can be a bit too lax. Don't get me wrong, I like the Shepard but going on a mission just to flirt with a girl... Not something a Lt. Col would be doing on duty. The girl wasn't even that attractive...

And if she was, that would make it better how?:confused:

Hong3103
November 18th, 2008, 06:23 PM
And if she was, that would make it better how?:confused:
It wouldn't... but if he was going to conduct himself that way at least make it worthwhile.

MIZA
November 18th, 2008, 06:31 PM
whatever i am just glad that Kolya is really dead , and it was just an illusion

rsanchez
November 18th, 2008, 06:58 PM
He doesn't care about regulations, rules or anything sometimes. And his "conduct unbecoming of an officer" is a phrase he'd hear on a weekly basis if the show was even slightly realistic (as in not necessarily illegal, but "bad" enough to get fired (discharged)).
Yes, but season 1 General Hammond isn't in command. It was Weir, Carter and Woolsey. It was civilian to first-time commander to another civilian. How the hell is the show supposed to be slightly realistic when it takes place on a city-ship that is millions of years old and is millions of light years away?

Also, I think a major reason why John still is in Atlantis is because of how easily he can activate and control Ancient technology. Remember, Beckett had the gene to control the Ancient chair in Antarctica, but he struggled to even turn it on. As soon as John sat in the chair, it activated. A resource like that is invaluable in Atlantis, even if this particular resources treats women like the latest video game.

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 02:12 AM
Yes, but season 1 General Hammond isn't in command. It was Weir, Carter and Woolsey. It was civilian to first-time commander to another civilian. How the hell is the show supposed to be slightly realistic when it takes place on a city-ship that is millions of years old and is millions of light years away?
I'm sorry, just because it's sci-fi means it doesn't have to be realistic even in the least? So even though it's based on real life, as in, say, the American military, everything can be as ludicrous as the writers want them to be?

So this is a fictional united states Air Force we're talking about where there are no rules?

It was realistic back when Elizabeth was in command. Then when they regained contact with Earth, it was no longer realistic. When Sam got command, she became the military commander since she outranked John. They never said it, but she did. Then when she left, he regained command, against all logic.


Also, I think a major reason why John still is in Atlantis is because of how easily he can activate and control Ancient technology.
Maybe you should try re-reading my posts, yet again. I've never once said that John should be taken off Atlantis. I said that he should be relieved as his position of military leader of Atlantis. In no way does this mean he has to automatically be shipped back to Earth.


Remember, Beckett had the gene to control the Ancient chair in Antarctica, but he struggled to even turn it on. As soon as John sat in the chair, it activated. A resource like that is invaluable in Atlantis, even if this particular resources treats women like the latest video game.
Because he's a valuable resource, he has to be military leader of Atlantis? You're not getting this, you're arguing he shouldn't be shipped back to Earth, something no one has yet to argue in this thread. I just argued that if the show were to be realistic, he'd been discharged by now. However, I'm merely arguing that he shouldn't be allowed to lead the military of Atlantis.

Strawmanning is a very bad thing.

rsanchez
November 19th, 2008, 05:31 AM
Strawmanning is a very bad thing.
Then why the hell do you keep attacking everything John does around women to salvage your point?

Yes, because it's science fiction, it doesn't have to be entirely factual.

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 08:25 AM
Then why the hell do you keep attacking everything John does around women to salvage your point?
This has absolutely nothing to do with strawmanning. And you're strawmanning, yet again.

Also, might I remind you that I do not attack everything John does around women? In fact, I told you this yesterday when you brought up this lie. I criticize inappropriate behavior. I could care less if John flirted around if he did it at appropriate times and in appropriate ways.

This marks the 2nd time in two days I've had to tell you this. Will we reach a trifecta come tomorrow?


Yes, because it's science fiction, it doesn't have to be entirely factual.
No, but even a modicum of realism is warranted and preferred. As it stands now, it's not even science fiction anymore. It's entirely fictional. All societal rules, conventions and everything else is out the window with John being allowed to stay in command.

It's sci-fi but clearly based on real life as well. Just because it's sci-fi doesn't mean anything goes.

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 08:38 AM
It's sci-fi but clearly based on real life as well. Just because it's sci-fi doesn't mean anything goes.
Because it IS sci-fi and a universe in and of itself, it means the writers can make anything go, as long as it fits in the context of their vision. If they want the regs(from our reality) to be lax and for Shep to be seen as a fine example of a military commander, they can. And they don't have to explicitly state it either. It just is.
That's the beauty of this genre in the first place. Where is Shep's behavior internally inconsistent, in the Stargate universe?

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 08:55 AM
Because it IS sci-fi and a universe in and of itself, it means the writers can make anything go, as long as it fits in the context of their vision. If they want the regs(from our reality) to be lax and for Shep to be seen as a fine example of a military commander, they can. And they don't have to explicitly state it either. It just is.
That's the beauty of this genre in the first place. Where is Shep's behavior internally inconsistent, in the Stargate universe?
The regs aren't lax. The writers made sure to tell us that. John got into trouble and was exiled to McMurdo for not following the regs. Caldwell, Ellis and what's-his-name-Apollo-guy all think John is a disgrace to the USAF and have all stated that he breaks regs way too much (Caldwell not so much anymore, he's fallen for the Sheppard Charm). Kavanaugh stated that John went against regs as well (and Kavanaugh doesn't lie, as far as I know).

Also, did you know that the Stargate universe is largely exactly the same as real life? I believe 9/11 was mentioned in some episode and the writers and producers have said so themselves, that Stargate is just like the real world, only with the "what if" of if there were Stargates. The philosophy of the SG-verse is pretty much "Unless it is said to be different, assume it's the same as in real life".

The regs are the same as in real life, as far as we know. It's even canon. And John Sheppard has been stated to be grossly incompetent (not in those exact same words) by several highly ranked military men on the show.

That is cannon. That has been explicitly stated.

fumblesmcstupid
November 19th, 2008, 09:11 AM
Yah! I get tired of hearing that because the show is Science Fiction that all the rules and regs don't mean squat! I got into this debate about Keller and her Medical Ethics (or lack there of IMO) and dating her patients.

I like the fiction part of my Science Fiction to be Stargate's and UFO's and other stuff! But I want to know that the real life stuff is still REAL!

If you are in command of a base like say in Iraq, you are not ganna start dating your subordinates or your patients. It goes against regs and Ethics!

Vacation! It's all they ever wanted!! Vacation have to get away!

Get a girlfriend/boyfriend at home and stop dating your Co-Workers! It hardly ever works out well!

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 09:12 AM
This is so NOT reality as we know it.
In real life, The Hair would be shorn, a career pilot wouldn't be all special ops ground force trained, alien native princesses wouldn't be given command of a military outpost when senior staff was away, Shep would have been kicked out long ago when he stole a jumper, disobeyed direct orders and returned to Atlantis. None of this would be allowed.
It IS, in the world that Wright, Cooper, Mallozzi, Mullie, etc. have conceived.
Roll with it, I love Shep and his non-conformist ways and I personally love his pathetic attempts at flirting! Do you want me not to like them because you don't?

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 09:21 AM
This is so NOT reality as we know it.
And you know this how, as opposed to what the writers and producers have stated? Are you saying you know how they think? Are you psychic?


In real life, The Hair would be shorn, a career pilot wouldn't be all special ops ground force trained, alien native princesses wouldn't be given command of a military outpost when senior staff was away, Shep would have been kicked out long ago when he stole a jumper, disobeyed direct orders and returned to Atlantis.
Yes, you just proved how John Sheppard is grossly incompetent and should've been fired and quite possibly court-marshaled 29 times over. You just proved my case.


None of this would be allowed.
It IS, in the world that Wright, Cooper, Mallozzi, Mullie, etc. have conceived.
Roll with it, I love Shep and his non-conformist ways and I personally love his pathetic attempts at flirting! Do you want me not to like them because you don't?
Yes, and in this world, John Sheppard goes against regs and breaks rules and laws as he sees fit. Did you miss my entire post where I pointed how the writers have already made this all cannon? Several people have stated on screen that John Sheppard breaks rules and regs and that he should be relieved of his post.

Don't pull the "This isn't the real world"-stuff with us. The writers have already established that when it comes to the military, it's exactly as in the real world.

So why is John still in command? Because the how is highly unrealistic and the writers are hacks, that is why.

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 09:55 AM
And you know this how, as opposed to what the writers and producers have stated? Are you saying you know how they think? Are you psychic?


Yes, you just proved how John Sheppard is grossly incompetent and should've been fired and quite possibly court-marshaled 29 times over. You just proved my case.


Yes, and in this world, John Sheppard goes against regs and breaks rules and laws as he sees fit. Did you miss my entire post where I pointed how the writers have already made this all cannon? Several people have stated on screen that John Sheppard breaks rules and regs and that he should be relieved of his post.

Don't pull the "This isn't the real world"-stuff with us. The writers have already established that when it comes to the military, it's exactly as in the real world.

So why is John still in command? Because the how is highly unrealistic and the writers are hacks, that is why.

I didn't prove your point, I proved mine.
In the Stargate reality, these things have been done and Shep and Co are still there, with no repercussions. So it did not get them in trouble.
In our reality, it would.
Atlantis is in no way the real world.
And as to the point of doctors dating patients, it's morally wrong in our reality, but these writers seem more than happy to let it happen. Again, a proof that they have written an entirely different construct in which to place their characters.
The writers might be hacks, what they consider morality may be in question, but the show they created is what we ended up with, not what we wish we had. We can hate it all we want (Mckeller=fail), but whatever ridiculous stuff they put on screen is canon.

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 10:07 AM
I didn't prove your point, I proved mine.
In the Stargate reality, these things have been done and Shep and Co are still there, with no repercussions. So it did not get them in trouble.
In our reality, it would.
Atlantis is in no way the real world.
And as to the point of doctors dating patients, it's morally wrong in our reality, but these writers seem more than happy to let it happen. Again, a proof that they have written an entirely different construct in which to place their characters.
I'm sorry, what part of characters on the show saying on-screen that what John did was wrong and that he should be fired and quite possibly face court marshal was too Canadian French for you to understand?

It was said on the show. The fact that nothing happened just goes to show how much the writers expect us to suspend our disbelief. They expect us to believe that just because John has saved the day a few times means that he can get away with pretty much anything.

Also, how much of this crap do you ends up in the official mission reports? He had Elizabeth wrapped around his finger, cutting him way too much slack. With Sam there, he didn't really do much that was out of order for a military commander since he was no longer the commander. With Richard, he's slowly coaxing Richard into breaking regs more.

This doesn't change the fact that it has been stated on the show that what he does is wrong (the stuff people know about, anyway), are against regs and other things.

And the writers and producers themselves have stated that the world the shows take place in is the real world. Yes, that means that real world things such as how the USAF works is still the exact same. The writers, however, don't feel like realism is to be preferred and therefore let John get away with this stuff.

Let me repeat that for the 4th time since you seem to not have understood it the first two times I said it: The show takes place in the real world (fictionally). The regs are the same. Doctor-Patient relations are the same.

Now you can assume and make-believe as much as you want to, but the fact remains that the show supposedly takes place in the modern day world.

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 10:15 AM
The show takes place in the real world as shaped by the writer's imagination.
While there have been some characters on the show who have felt Shep should be removed, they have, obviously, not held the prevailing view, because Shep and Co are still there.
In that reality, whatever things he did, did not warrant his removal.
No matter how much you (or Kavanaugh) think they should.

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 10:28 AM
The show takes place in the real world as shaped by the writer's imagination.
While there have been some characters on the show who have felt Shep should be removed, they have, obviously, not held the prevailing view, because Shep and Co are still there.
In that reality, whatever things he did, did not warrant his removal.
No matter how much you (or Kavanaugh) think they should.
The writers have said that the show is pretty much the real world + aliens. The show has ranking USAF members check up on it to have things be realistic (not that they are). Characters on screen have said that John breaks regs and should be fired.

How much more do you need?! The writers are just inconsistent and bad at their jobs. They can't have people say that John should get fired, yet nothing happens. Instead of realizing that they're bad writers, you try to rationalize it. No, it doesn't work that way. The writers have had characters say, in canon, that John is a horrible military leader.

bluealien
November 19th, 2008, 10:34 AM
Anyone who has any insight into how the military (especially the American military) works knows that he is grossly incompetent for his position. I suggest you educate yourself on this matter.

Why is he allowed to stay the military leader of Atlantis? Because the writers suck. And I'm so sick and tired of "This is TV!". Doesn't mean there can't be even a modicum of realism in it, especially when there are elements in it based on real life.


He makes many, many mistakes. The only reason why people don't die from them is because he gets lucky. His mistakes aren't mistakes as in "Either choice could turn up either way". This mistakes are mistakes which go against regulations. He doesn't act like a commanding officer at all, more like a soldier.

He doesn't care about regulations, rules or anything sometimes. And his "conduct unbecoming of an officer" is a phrase he'd hear on a weekly basis if the show was even slightly realistic (as in not necessarily illegal, but "bad" enough to get fired (discharged)).


Since when are you the expert on how any military force operates. And what can you really compare it to.. do we have military personnel fighting life sucking aliens in another galaxy.. don't think so. So you cannot compare how Sheppard acts in any of these situations. Sheppard is at war and pomp and ceramony are not really all that important when he is in charge of saving thousands or even millions of lives. Do you know first hand how the military personnel operate and how they conduct themselves in Irag or Afghanistan..behind enemy lines... do you have first hand knowledge of this.

And the fact is that it is a TV show and of course rules are going to be bent a little for dramatic effect. You cannot just discount the fact that it is a TV show we are talking about and not real life. But when has Sheppard ignored regulations or how he is grossly incompetent. He is the military head of Atlantis... that means he makes the decisions.. so what regulations is he ignoring.. or would you like him to stop and read the rule book before he engages the enemy. Woolsey has admitted breaking protocol and breaking regulations since he came to Atlantis so why don't you have a problem with him.. and what regulations will help you out when you are being invaded by space vampires or Replicators...are their regulations out there that deal with this kind of thing...

Sheppard has to make on the spot decisions and it's impossible to know exactly how these decisions will turn out.. but what would you rather have him do ... never make any... make sure he follows the letter of the law when it's not going to save lives.... there are no prefect scenarios... no certaintly that things will go the way they were meant to or planned to.. no crystal ball to confirm that all will work out ok.. but that is the burden that Sheppard has to carry every day... and I don't fault him for any of the decisions he has taken to date...

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Since when are you the expert on how any military force operates.
I never said I was an expert. But I know enough to know that John breaks regs. In fact, the show itself states this.


And what can you really compare it to.. do we have military personnel fighting life sucking aliens in another galaxy.. don't think so.
And? Just because he's in another galaxy fighting space pirates means he can do as he pleases?


So you cannot compare how Sheppard acts in any of these situations.
The rules are there for a reason.


Sheppard is at war and pomp and ceramony are not really all that important when he is in charge of saving thousands or even millions of lives.
While breaking regs, rules, laws and everything inbetween on a regular basis, often for things that do not involving saving the lives of thousands of millions.


Do you know first hand how the military personnel operate and how they conduct themselves in Irag or Afghanistan..behind enemy lines... do you have first hand knowledge of this.
Have you met Flying Officer Bennet? I suggest you take a chat with him.


And the fact is that it is a TV show and of course rules are going to be bent a little for dramatic effect.
"A little" =/= John


You cannot just discount the fact that it is a TV show we are talking about and not real life.
Suspension of disbelief can only take us that far.


But when has Sheppard ignored regulations or how he is grossly incompetent.
Read back. Don't make me repeat myself because you're lazy.


He is the military head of Atlantis... that means he makes the decisions.. so what regulations is he ignoring.. or would you like him to stop and read the rule book before he engages the enemy.
If John was any good at what he did, he'd know them by heart.


Woolsey has admitted breaking protocol and breaking regulations since he came to Atlantis so why don't you have a problem with him..
Yes I do. But this isn't a thread about Richard, now is it?


and what regulations will help you out when you are being invaded by space vampires or Replicators...are their regulations out there that deal with this kind of thing...
The rules are there for a reason. The only reason why breaking them hasn't bit John in the ass yet is due to sheer dumb luck. Read back a few pages.


Sheppard has to make on the spot decisions and it's impossible to know exactly how these decisions will turn out..
His decisions are bad. He succeeds due to luck, not due to good decision-making.


but what would you rather have him do ... never make any... make sure he follows the letter of the law when it's not going to save lives....
He makes thoroughly reckless decisions that endanger the lives of the entire expedition with very slim chances of success on a regular basis. It's only through sheer dumb luck that the expedition has yet to pay gravely for John's "brilliant" decision-making.

The regs and rules are there to prevent rogue operatives from making such important decisions on their own, endangering and possibly killing innocents.

Sheer dumb luck does not a good military commander make.


there are no prefect scenarios... no certaintly that things will go the way they were meant to or planned to.. no crystal ball to confirm that all will work out ok.. but that is the burden that Sheppard has to carry every day... and I don't fault him for any of the decisions he has taken to date...
I'm not a fanboy. Therefore, I criticize.

"The Shrine" - Legend of mystical place where someone might get one last day to say "goodbye". Packs half of the senior stack of Atlantis into one jumper and flies off onto a planet with two Hives on it. Lucked out, the cave had Ancient technology.

In the end, they lucked out and saved Rodney. But that doesn't change the fact that the decision to pack half of the senior staff of Atlantis into one single jumper to go onto a world with two Hives on the slim chance you might get a chance to say "goodbye" wasn't a very poor decision to begin with.

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 12:19 PM
I'm not a fanboy.
No kidding.;)

FallenAngelII
November 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM
No kidding.;)
And you are?

And I mean fanboy in the derogatory sense, blindly devoted to someone and who will defend them no matter what. Anyone who claims John hasn't made big mistakes during his time on Atlantis is obviously a blind fanboy(-girl).

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 02:46 PM
And you are?

And I mean fanboy in the derogatory sense, blindly devoted to someone and who will defend them no matter what. Anyone who claims John hasn't made big mistakes during his time on Atlantis is obviously a blind fanboy(-girl).

Proud Fangirl here!!!!!! My seeing eye dog is too.
(and because someone disagrees with you, you give them a red? sheesh)

Flyboy
November 19th, 2008, 03:55 PM
I'm going to be brief, because I really don't have the time to write an essay here, but I'm just going to summarise my views on this.

The military is not completely full of characters like Colonel Caldwell. You get them, but they're not the entirety. Characters like Sheppard - in otherwords - GASH, do exist. But we need to think in context here about what he's doing.

Now, as FAII has said, characters on screen have commented on his poor conduct from the get go. So ok, Shep's nature means he flaunts rules, fine, at least that's acknowledged. His position on Atlantis is obviously due to the ATA gene, that's the only reason he was asked along. Military Commander was at Weir's insistance. And that is probably because he DID have her round his little finger. What we need to remember here is that Sheppard is not supposed to be the O'Neill of SGA. Not really. He's theoretically General Hammond. Like it or not, the higher up in the military you get, the more you start flying desks. Shep's role should have him stuck behind the desk and reading reports, and conducting evaluations, organising training, getting on at Lorne because he's overdue for a fitness test, etc etc etc.

If Sheppard was merely a team leader on Atlantis, then his gashness, whilst unacceptable, would be believable, as frankly, he'd just be one of those akward and annoying officers that the CO has to put up with.

He's not though. He's military IC.

Furthermore, he is military IC on what is essentially an overseas posting, not a deployment. They're not in the middle of enemy territory. They're no more at risk than the SGC was in SG1. And no one would regard the SGC as a deployment. Thus conduct in Afghanistan/Iraq is irrelevant. But even if it wasn't, the military IC out there would stick by the regs completely. Dress and protocol may not be the most important thing on his mind, but certain standards would, such as, for example, how quick one can get into CBRN gear. Punctuality. Etc... On an overseas posting however, protocol would be no different to being at home.

In some ways, the smaller things - ie his hair, are more likely to get him into trouble than stealing a jumper for a rescue mission, the only reason being, stealing the jumper would have saved lives. Royal Marines have done similar things... (well for a given value of similar).

I suppose the key thing is that Sheppard would be believable if he were in Lorne's position, and getting reprimanded for some of his actions. He was however, promoted too earlier, and Caldwell was right, a full Colonel needed to be Military IC of Atlantis.

Repli!kat
November 19th, 2008, 05:10 PM
I'm going to be brief, because I really don't have the time to write an essay here, but I'm just going to summarise my views on this.

The military is not completely full of characters like Colonel Caldwell. You get them, but they're not the entirety. Characters like Sheppard - in otherwords - GASH, do exist. But we need to think in context here about what he's doing.

Now, as FAII has said, characters on screen have commented on his poor conduct from the get go. So ok, Shep's nature means he flaunts rules, fine, at least that's acknowledged. His position on Atlantis is obviously due to the ATA gene, that's the only reason he was asked along. Military Commander was at Weir's insistance. And that is probably because he DID have her round his little finger. What we need to remember here is that Sheppard is not supposed to be the O'Neill of SGA. Not really. He's theoretically General Hammond. Like it or not, the higher up in the military you get, the more you start flying desks. Shep's role should have him stuck behind the desk and reading reports, and conducting evaluations, organising training, getting on at Lorne because he's overdue for a fitness test, etc etc etc.

If Sheppard was merely a team leader on Atlantis, then his gashness, whilst unacceptable, would be believable, as frankly, he'd just be one of those akward and annoying officers that the CO has to put up with.

He's not though. He's military IC.

Furthermore, he is military IC on what is essentially an overseas posting, not a deployment. They're not in the middle of enemy territory. They're no more at risk than the SGC was in SG1. And no one would regard the SGC as a deployment. Thus conduct in Afghanistan/Iraq is irrelevant. But even if it wasn't, the military IC out there would stick by the regs completely. Dress and protocol may not be the most important thing on his mind, but certain standards would, such as, for example, how quick one can get into CBRN gear. Punctuality. Etc... On an overseas posting however, protocol would be no different to being at home.

In some ways, the smaller things - ie his hair, are more likely to get him into trouble than stealing a jumper for a rescue mission, the only reason being, stealing the jumper would have saved lives. Royal Marines have done similar things... (well for a given value of similar).

I suppose the key thing is that Sheppard would be believable if he were in Lorne's position, and getting reprimanded for some of his actions. He was however, promoted too earlier, and Caldwell was right, a full Colonel needed to be Military IC of Atlantis.

How come, when you say it, it sounds reasonable....:confused:

FallenAngelII
November 20th, 2008, 07:54 AM
Proud Fangirl here!!!!!! My seeing eye dog is too.
(and because someone disagrees with you, you give them a red? sheesh)
Did I say that? I said that it's bad to be a blind fanboy who will not listen to reason (though I didn't elaborate that far in my rep). That is the reason for why I neg-repped you. And I very, very seldom do (yet I disagree with people on an hourly basis on GW).

I suggest you read what Flying Officer Bennett said. Unsurprisingly, he completely agrees with me and everything he (a military man himself) said backs my point up. However, you, of course, argue that, despite what has been said on and off-screen by both cast members, characters, writers and producers, the show operates in a fictional universe where almost everything is completely different, despite it contradicting past precedence.


How come, when you say it, it sounds reasonable....:confused:
What sounds reasonable?

Jill_Ion
November 20th, 2008, 06:37 PM
...I'm not a fanboy. Therefore, I criticize....

The first thing one fan says to another in a pathetic attempt to discredit the other's opinions.

:fail:

FallenAngelII
November 21st, 2008, 06:56 AM
The first thing one fan says to another in a pathetic attempt to discredit the other's opinions.

:fail:
I'm not the one claiming John has never done anything for which I can blame him (someone said it in this thread).

Crazedwraith
November 28th, 2008, 09:48 AM
This episode wasn't as bad as some others for this. After all at least here, John's more or less doing his job: protecting base personnel.

I'm sure there was an episode John was supposed to be volunteering to run supply missions on his day off because the locals there were very 'friendly.'

Jill_Ion
November 30th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Yeah, that was Travelers.

Ziva Z
November 30th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Well, I sure wouldn't mind if he'd think about me with his libido.;)

Jill_Ion
November 30th, 2008, 08:32 PM
Well, I sure wouldn't mind if he'd think about me with his libido.;)

Ditto! :sheppard:

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 07:46 AM
I'm sure there was an episode John was supposed to be volunteering to run supply missions on his day off because the locals there were very 'friendly.'
Yes, it was called "Travelers". John also spent that episode making out with a hostile female alien just because she initiated the kiss, leading to her disarming him and stealing the Ancient warship he had been tortured (by her command) into piloting.

This is why the thread is called "Can John Sheppard stop thinking with his libido already". The thread titles alludes to this having happened before.


Well, I sure wouldn't mind if he'd think about me with his libido.;)
The problem is that he's doing it at inappropriate times with inappropriate people.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 08:03 AM
Yes, it was called "Travelers". John also spent that episode making out with a hostile female alien just because she initiated the kiss, leading to her disarming him and stealing the Ancient warship he had been tortured (by her command) into piloting.

I quite liked that episode (except for the aforementioned friendly native) but if they'd re-written it without the 'lol, sexual tension!' theme and concentrated on the much better 'balance of power' thing between Shep's experience with Ancient ships and the traveller's better resources and man power. It would have been a hell of a lot better. I don't think there's much wrong with the episode's plot until they shoved in the sexual tension angle.





The problem is that he's doing it at inappropriate times with inappropriate people.

Now, what would you consider the appropriate time and the appropriate people to see Sheppard get his groove on and with?

Stargate is primarily action/adventure, we don't really need any relationship garbage unless it directly ties into the big plot.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 08:12 AM
I quite liked that episode (except for the aforementioned friendly native) but if they'd re-written it without the 'lol, sexual tension!' theme and concentrated on the much better 'balance of power' thing between Shep's experience with Ancient ships and the traveller's better resources and man power. It would have been a hell of a lot better. I don't think there's much wrong with the episode's plot until they shoved in the sexual tension angle.
Neither did I. The problem with "Travelers" is, however, that the "sexual tension angle" is there all the time. It's there from the moment the two first meet and it's there 'til they part ways.

It's constantly there, taunting is, making its presence known with looks, smiles and double-entendrés. It ruins the episode because of this.

I wholly agree on it being a pretty good episode if we were to remove all of the sexual tension, but then we'd only have 25 minutes or so, wouldn't we?


Now, what would you consider the appropriate time and the appropriate people to see Sheppard get his groove on and with?
* When he's not on duty.
* When he's not on a mission (and thus on duty).
* When he's not in a hostile combat situation.
* By not shirking his duties/abusing his power to chase tail.
* Doing it appropriately (for his position on Atlantis).

Times like these include:
* Larrin. He was in a hostile combat situation. She'd shown herself to be ruthless, even willing to torture people. Ouh, she randomly kisses him. What does he do? He kisses her back and starts making out with her, letting his guard down, allowing her to steal his gun. Good work, John!
* That Girl (in "Remnants"). He was either shirking his duties and volunteering for this mission just to chase tail instead of doing more important work as base commander or he pulled the strings and got the job of escorting her instead of someone else on his time off. He also propositioned her inappropriately. It was a direct "Let's have sex nao!" proposition. For a man of his position, to proposition someone under his protection like that is inappropriate and I'm pretty sure against the rules or something.
* Chaya - I could write essays on this, but he showed and told her way too much, especially after they'd just had two run-ins with the Genii.

Crazedwraith
December 1st, 2008, 08:16 AM
I wholly disagree on it being a pretty good episode if we were to remove all of the sexual tension, but then we'd only have 25 minutes or so, wouldn't we?


:D I actually said I'd like if it had been 're-written' so you'd have those 25 minutes, plus another 15-20 minutes of new stuff replacing the sexual tension.

FallenAngelII
December 1st, 2008, 08:22 AM
:D I actually said I'd like if it had been 're-written' so you'd have those 25 minutes, plus another 15-20 minutes of new stuff replacing the sexual tension.
And I meant to say "I wholly agree". I misread the "rewrite"-part, though. I agree with that.

So we're both in agreement with that the world would be a better place without Larrin in it.

fumblesmcstupid
December 1st, 2008, 10:21 PM
huh?

Wow!!

Deja vu..........

different thread...........

same detractors (I wanted to go with arguers but I was told it was bad English)

do do do do do do do do (Twilight Zone music)

FallenAngelII
December 3rd, 2008, 11:05 AM
huh?

Wow!!

Deja vu..........

different thread...........

same detractors (I wanted to go with arguers but I was told it was bad English)

do do do do do do do do (Twilight Zone music)
Why wouldn't we keep getting ticked off by John's continued misdeeds? If he repeats the same mistakes, we're going to give him flack for it, citing the same things.

Repli!kat
December 3rd, 2008, 11:40 AM
Why wouldn't we keep getting ticked off by John's continued misdeeds? If he repeats the same mistakes, we're going to give him flack for it, citing the same things.

WE?
You mean YOU.
I love the character of John Sheppard, in all his rakish "hewo" glory!
Fangirling again, can't help it. :)
Sorry FAII:(

FallenAngelII
December 4th, 2008, 12:29 PM
WE?
You mean YOU.
I love the character of John Sheppard, in all his rakish "hewo" glory!
Fangirling again, can't help it. :)
Sorry FAII:(
fumblesmcstupid said:
"same detractors (I wanted to go with arguers but I was told it was bad English)"

By "we", I mean these "same detractors". I like and dislike certain characters. But I'm not fanboy enough to be blind to all of their misdeeds and mistakes and claim them to be perfect, never criticizing them, ever.

bluealien
December 7th, 2008, 12:12 PM
Why wouldn't we keep getting ticked off by John's continued misdeeds? If he repeats the same mistakes, we're going to give him flack for it, citing the same things.

It seems to be just you who keeps getting ticked off.. I think you're imagination is running away with you... as you seem to be seeing things that no one else sees in these eps.... so Shep was making out during the entire episode of Travellers... really !! that must be the X rated version that I havn't seen yet... darn..:p

Laura Dove
December 7th, 2008, 12:28 PM
It seems to be just you who keeps getting ticked off.. I think you're imagination is running away with you... as you seem to be seeing things that no one else sees in these eps.... so Shep was making out during the entire episode of Travellers... really !! that must be the X rated version that I havn't seen yet... darn..:p

Glad to learn my name is no one else. I'm not as vocal as FallenAngelII because I care less (things I liked in "Travelers", and even more here in "Remnants", made up for it), but that doesn't mean that I appreciate Sheppard's general behaviour near women.

kennythewraith
December 7th, 2008, 11:25 PM
dont hate a playa..hate the game lol cmon why are we arguing about the sex life of a tv character?

Flyboy
December 8th, 2008, 11:15 AM
dont hate a playa..hate the game lol cmon why are we arguing about the sex life of a tv character?
Why are we discussing anything about the episode at all?

FallenAngelII
December 11th, 2008, 09:15 AM
It seems to be just you who keeps getting ticked off.. I think you're imagination is running away with you... as you seem to be seeing things that no one else sees in these eps.... so Shep was making out during the entire episode of Travellers... really !! that must be the X rated version that I havn't seen yet... darn..:p
I'm sory, did you just claim my imagination is running away with me and then go on to accuse me of implying that John was making out with Larrin throughout the entirety of "Travelers".

Please, please quote me where I even come close to implying such. He undeniably responded to Larrin's come-on and kiss by initiating a make-out session whereupon which he got his weapon stolen from him, stunned and had the ship taken away from him.

He was just lucky that Larrin wasn't malicious and that they struck up an alliance of some sort from it. That's his thing, he very lucky, despite making huge mistakes due to, among other things, his libido, which would get him to make out with an alien who had just earlier tortured[/I] him right after surviving a Wraith attack!

And this is a battle hardened man of 40 who's supposedly smart enough to get into MENSA? Yah...


dont hate a playa..hate the game lol cmon why are we arguing about the sex life of a tv character?
If that is your attitude, why are you even on these forums? Or is it only relevant to discuss certain aspects of fictional characters?