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Pharaoh Atem
November 14th, 2008, 07:23 PM
it should have taking up more of the ep


i'm a little disappointed

Major_Griff
November 14th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I agree, but I think the episode was really good as it was. I think if it focused more on Sheppard and Kolya it would have been better, but then at the same time, it might have felt like a big jip if most of the episode was completely a hallucination.

Orion Antreas
November 14th, 2008, 07:36 PM
I can understand your points you are making, but I am glad how the episode was. It allowed for a great deal of character development for Woolsey. I just loved how far he has come, even since the beginning of this season. I am so impressed by how the developed him. Right when we found out that Carter was leaving (Amanda Tapping was leaving for her new series.), I knew Woolsey would become the new commander and I knew he would develop right into the character how he is up to this episode.

His development is so great. An excellent Woolsey episode and simply a 'classic Stargate' episode. Sheppard also had character development too. In some places. :P

Rine
November 14th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Glad I'm not the only one that likes Woosley! This was a good episode for him and I'm glad they are developing his character further.

Pharaoh Atem
November 14th, 2008, 07:57 PM
i like Woosley but sometimes the you jsut wish the ep would go the direction you want it to go

Briangate78
November 14th, 2008, 07:58 PM
The episode basically defined Sheppard's character. Brilliant!

Ruffles
November 14th, 2008, 08:42 PM
i like Woosley but sometimes the you jsut wish the ep would go the direction you want it to go

I agree. It would have been nice to delve deeper into what makes Sheppard tick.


The episode basically defined Sheppard's character. Brilliant!

Did you learn something new here that was defining? While I liked the validation that Sheppard does torture himself over the lives lost and the decisions he's made, I already knew that. Joe Flanigan shows that on his face every time it happens.

Briangate78
November 14th, 2008, 08:48 PM
I agree. It would have been nice to delve deeper into what makes Sheppard tick.



Did you learn something new here that was defining? While I liked the validation that Sheppard does torture himself over the lives lost and the decisions he's made, I already knew that. Joe Flanigan shows that on his face every time it happens.

It reinforced what his character is all about.

the fifth man
November 14th, 2008, 08:50 PM
It reinforced what his character is all about.

I totally agree with that.

txTart
November 14th, 2008, 08:58 PM
I think it's swell that Woolsey's character was fleshed out some more. But it's been nearly five years and we have only the vaguest notion of what drives Sheppard.

Infernorhythm
November 14th, 2008, 09:06 PM
It reinforced what his character is all about.

Indeed. That, and the marriage joke was classic.

I've been hoping there'd be an episode where Sheppard is basically tortured with his failures. This did it rather well. I'm happy with it. Koyla being the manifestation of Sheppard's doubts and failures? Works for me.

Ruffles
November 14th, 2008, 09:14 PM
It reinforced what his character is all about.

Such as?

Briangate78
November 14th, 2008, 09:19 PM
Such as?

That his character is dark and that he would sacrifice himself to save others.

Ruffles
November 14th, 2008, 09:28 PM
That his character is dark and that he would sacrifice himself to save others.

Those parts of his character have been constantly defined throughout the series.

We've seen dark!Sheppard since Rising, highlighted again in The Eye, The Siege, Miller's Crossing, and most recently in Outsiders.

We've seen his sacrificial nature in The Siege, The Ark, Search and Rescue, The Seed, and most recently in Prodigal.

What was new here?

Browncoat1984
November 14th, 2008, 11:41 PM
Hm...one line that struck out at me was when "Kolya" (did I spell that right?) said something about Sheppard running away from something...I thought that was an interesting statement.

Nitegate
November 15th, 2008, 01:21 AM
Hm...one line that struck out at me was when "Kolya" (did I spell that right?) said something about Sheppard running away from something...I thought that was an interesting statement.

what it means is he's always running away from his failures, problems and issues

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 01:23 AM
I did like the episode. There wasn't to much in one area and the way it all came together in the end was great.

I have to agree that I liked to actually see how much Sheppard actually tortures himself for his failures. That's what I think they were trying to get across. I mean, yeah, we see it on his face, but that really doesn't tell the extent of what's going on inside in my own personal opinion of course. I felt that it gave a lot in the way of just how much a person could really torture themselves. And Sheppard is no different. Just, instead of just seeing a look, we kinda got a feel for it too, to be able to see it fleshed out. Even if it was only a hallucination.

I was very happy with Woolsey. I am massively impressed by him. To be honest, I never thought he'd make a turn development wise in this direction when I first saw him with SG-1. But it's shown me that he is a lot stronger then most give him credit for, he just never really shows it. He used to basically hide behind his protocol and now that he can't really do that anymore, we get to see sides of him that we probably would've never seen otherwise.

And with Rodney, it was fun watching the hallucination play on his weakness. His huge ego. But none the less, Rodney is awesome. And in his own right has come a long way. Even if he does still need a lot of deflating most of the time. lol But he's a good guy really and I enjoyed seeing him realise, after he had said he wouldn't be fooled, that he was indeed fooled. That was just funny as hell to watch. I was laughing my ass off. So I'm easily amused. =P lol

Anyhow, that's own opinion. To each their own, as I have no issues with what other people think. It's all good. *smiles and nods* Oh, and it's 1:19 in the morning here, so if some of this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to explain it after I've had some sleep. LOL

SerenaSerenity
November 15th, 2008, 01:28 AM
what it means is he's always running away from his failures, problems and issues

I have to agree there. I think that would be why he jumps into suicide mission. Because he can't bare to fail again. And then the whole speal in my previous post comes to cause I still think that as well. *nod nod*

Linzi
November 15th, 2008, 01:45 AM
Those parts of his character have been constantly defined throughout the series.

We've seen dark!Sheppard since Rising, highlighted again in The Eye, The Siege, Miller's Crossing, and most recently in Outsiders.

We've seen his sacrificial nature in The Siege, The Ark, Search and Rescue, The Seed, and most recently in Prodigal.

What was new here?
There wasn't anything new here really. It just was a reinforcement of what we knew already, as you illustrate above perfectly. I suppose I didn't know Sheppard was perhaps a little fearful of Kolya and that in a way he was his worst nightmare. I'd suspected that, but I didn't know that for sure. I think that's the only new thing I got out of Remnants. Sheppard is afraid of Kolya! :lol:

It's not that I didn't enjoy what I got, because I did. However, I was under the impression I was going to find out what 'makes Sheppard tick' and I'm still none the wiser on that front!

Ouroboros
November 15th, 2008, 03:31 AM
I think that's the only new thing I got out of Remnants. Sheppard is afraid of Kolya! :lol:


I found that quite interesting to. His worst fear isn't to be captured or chased by the Wraith but rather by the Genii, and Kolya specifically, even though Kolya's dead and the Geni organization is in shambles.

It makes sense in the context of how much personal misery Kolya has inflicted on him though, as compared to the misc faceless hordes of Wraith whack a moles the series offers up. It's hard to work up a rivalry between a man and a sequence of costume changes.

I'd also say the Koyla is the series best villian period, especially early on Kolya. Hell I'd even say he's probably scarier than any individual Wraith I can think of.

Linzi
November 15th, 2008, 03:59 AM
I found that quite interesting to. His worst fear isn't to be captured or chased by the Wraith but rather by the Genii, and Kolya specifically, even though Kolya's dead and the Geni organization is in shambles.

It makes sense in the context of how much personal misery Kolya has inflicted on him though, as compared to the misc faceless hordes of Wraith whack a moles the series offers up. It's hard to work up a rivalry between a man and a sequence of costume changes.

I'd also say the Koyla is the series best villian period, especially early on Kolya. Hell I'd even say he's probably scarier than any individual Wraith I can think of.
I agree with you, and I say that as someone who likes the wraith, generally. The fact that Kolya is human makes him a more terrifying enemy in many ways, IMO. With he and Sheppard is WAS personal. With the wraith it's just them enjoying a meal really. It's what they do; they feed. Kolya's story is so different. He obviously really got to Sheppard, quite understandably so, IMO.

I can't express how upset and angry I was when he was so ridiculously and stupidly killed in the second 'I' episode. :mad:

Wayston
November 15th, 2008, 04:27 AM
Well I remember the episode where Kolya's team took over atlantis and it must have been one of the most traumatising experiences sheppard had considering his fear of failing to protect his people, to be responsible of security and letting that guy stroll in and take over the base and all; so of all the things he has experienced in his career the biggest one must be to see it happen all over again

pilgrim soul
November 15th, 2008, 04:33 AM
I agree with you, and I say that as someone who likes the wraith, generally. The fact that Kolya is human makes him a more terrifying enemy in many ways, IMO. With he and Sheppard is WAS personal. With the wraith it's just them enjoying a meal really. It's what they do; they feed. Kolya's story is so different. He obviously really got to Sheppard, quite understandably so, IMO.


I think this is a great point, the Wraith are "monsters", aliens while Kolya is human. Its far darker that a human could torture and murder as opposed to the scary space vampires. Kolya is just a man, a soldier like Sheppard, perhaps Sheppard even sees something of himself in Kolya - they are both men who are prepared to extreme lengths to protect their people and their interests. As such I think it far more appropriate that his "nightmare" would feature Kolya instead of The Wraith.

bara007
November 15th, 2008, 05:17 AM
It was great to see Kolya again, I agree that he is the best villain, and maybe also thanks to that he has a personal connection with Sheppard - it may even seen at times they like each other:) It was too bad they they killed him, but as they say anyone came come back in sci-fi, which is great:)

This episode showed the viewer once more the the struggle John has, which is kind of dark, almost film-noirish...but I think most importantly even Sheppard has seen what he is doing to himself- torturing himself, maybe a bit too much. He should realise he has change something to make him feel better or at least seek help by talking to a third party- now with Dr.Heightmeyer no more, maybe with one of the teammates:)

I only hope they will came back to this in the next episodes and resolve it somehow!:)

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 05:27 AM
Before I knew that Kolya was a hallucination (I knew there was something fishy about Woolsey's hallucination all along, since there were actually clues there), I just felt like the episode was strangely broken up and paced. Why would they have a tense battle situation where John had lost a hand and was fighting for his life and interweave it with Richard's struggle with the I.O.A.?

But after the big reveal, it all made sense and made the episode feel logically written (except for a few nitpicks) and all.

If more time had been dedicated to John vs. Kolya, it would've all felt like a big jip in the end. After all, this episode wasn't about John vs. Kolya at all, it was about the device, the Sakari and then a little bit of Woolsey vs. the I.O.A.

Having the episode concentrate on something that wasn't really what the episode was about at all would've been illogical from a writing standpoint.

rsanchez
November 15th, 2008, 07:09 AM
I think this episode was good the way it is. The writers (somehow) found a good balance in the amount of time dedicated to Shepherd and Woolsey, and to McKay's investigation of the device. I was satisfied with all three.

Briangate78
November 15th, 2008, 07:47 AM
Those parts of his character have been constantly defined throughout the series.

We've seen dark!Sheppard since Rising, highlighted again in The Eye, The Siege, Miller's Crossing, and most recently in Outsiders.

We've seen his sacrificial nature in The Siege, The Ark, Search and Rescue, The Seed, and most recently in Prodigal.

What was new here?

Um Ruffles I don't think you are understanding me, but that's ok. I don't understand myself sometimes. :S

I meant that it was just a reminder of what his character is all about, nothing new. It kept what I called continuity about his character.

EdenSG
November 15th, 2008, 08:04 AM
I agree. It would have been nice to delve deeper into what makes Sheppard tick.



Did you learn something new here that was defining? While I liked the validation that Sheppard does torture himself over the lives lost and the decisions he's made, I already knew that. Joe Flanigan shows that on his face every time it happens.

I agree I would have liked a little more too, I still think the episode was good.

And I also agree that while the viewer didn't really learn anything new - most of have already seen how John tortures himself - I think what was new is that John the character didn't realize how much he tortures himself. The expression on John's face when Koyla told him his own darkness/fears of failure were the source of the hallucinations he looked shocked and even somewhat disturbed by it. It was a moment of self realization for the character which I thought was a very revealing character moment as well as potential for character growth.

Ruffles
November 15th, 2008, 08:47 AM
I think that's the only new thing I got out of Remnants. Sheppard is afraid of Kolya! :lol:

Do you think that Sheppard is really afraid of Kolya or that he simply sees Kolya as an instrument of torture?


Um Ruffles I don't think you are understanding me, but that's ok. I don't understand myself sometimes. :S

I meant that it was just a reminder of what his character is all about, nothing new. It kept what I called continuity about his character.

Ah, gotcha.


I agree I would have liked a little more too, I still think the episode was good.

And I also agree that while the viewer didn't really learn anything new - most of have already seen how John tortures himself - I think what was new is that John the character didn't realize how much he tortures himself. The expression on John's face when Koyla told him his own darkness/fears of failure were the source of the hallucinations he looked shocked and even somewhat disturbed by it. It was a moment of self realization for the character which I thought was a very revealing character moment as well as potential for character growth.

I can agree with that. I would have liked the ep to follow that vein of thought though. What happens next? Does Shep go to the gym and beat something until his hands bleed? Does he head to the pier and puke his guts out? Does he find the new base psychologist and ask for help? Does he go to a teammate (Teyla would be my guess) to talk? Does he wake up in the middle of the night soaked in sweat from nightmares, tuck it all back in, and move on? I want to know the rest of the story.

Nitegate
November 15th, 2008, 11:17 AM
this episode was one of the best this season, i can't believe people actually ranked it a 1, i think it's all the anti atlantis ***** who do that every week.

i'm glad that Kolya stayed dead, cause that has been played out way too many times, but was a halucination, and actually showed and explained sheppard, it just had everything come together.

remember one of the reasons why kolya was sheppards worst nightmare was cause he's the one who had Todd the wraith captured and allowed him to be fed on, it's not todds fault, it's instinct, but the blame and fault was all on kolya.

Wayston
November 15th, 2008, 12:27 PM
***

Wayston
November 15th, 2008, 12:28 PM
all interesting remarks!

Womble
November 15th, 2008, 12:44 PM
Personally, I've found the entire Sheppard subplot to be unnecessary, DESPITE it being fairly well done in and of itself. I felt that it connected only very superficially to the main Woolsey plot, it stole valuable screentime from Shen Xiaoyi's attempts to undermine Woolsey, and in that way lowered the energy of the entire episode instead of supercharging it as it could in a different context. I think the exploration of Sheppard's character warranted its own episode, but it was a fifth wheel in this one.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 05:42 PM
I agree I would have liked a little more too, I still think the episode was good.

And I also agree that while the viewer didn't really learn anything new - most of have already seen how John tortures himself - I think what was new is that John the character didn't realize how much he tortures himself. The expression on John's face when Koyla told him his own darkness/fears of failure were the source of the hallucinations he looked shocked and even somewhat disturbed by it. It was a moment of self realization for the character which I thought was a very revealing character moment as well as potential for character growth.

I just read on Joseph Mallozzi's blog (the writer of the episode if you don't know) some of the things that got cut for time or for other reasons. One of the things that got cut was a line with the AI telling John he needed to stop blaming himself for what happened with his mother and to let it go.

Can you imagine dropping that line in there and just leaving that hanging?? I would have been like, "What?! You have to tell about his mom now!!"

Yeah, so I'm curious about that and sad that there is no season six Joe can sneak that bit of info into the story line with.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 05:47 PM
I can agree with that. I would have liked the ep to follow that vein of thought though. What happens next? Does Shep go to the gym and beat something until his hands bleed? Does he head to the pier and puke his guts out? Does he find the new base psychologist and ask for help? Does he go to a teammate (Teyla would be my guess) to talk? Does he wake up in the middle of the night soaked in sweat from nightmares, tuck it all back in, and move on? I want to know the rest of the story.

I'd imagine John would be the wake up with nightmares (or just not be able to sleep period), tuck it all back in, and move on type. The only way he would talk about it (and yes I agree it would more than likely be Teyla out of all of them) is if he felt forced to.

FallenAngelII
November 15th, 2008, 06:15 PM
Can you imagine dropping that line in there and just leaving that hanging?? I would have been like, "What?! You have to tell about his mom now!!"
At least we'd have something instead of the same old, same old. Whenever we find out new things about John, it's either small or something big that's usually never heard from again or just brought up in passing.

I mean, we found out he has an ex-wife, that they're still friends and... that was it?

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 06:27 PM
At least we'd have something instead of the same old, same old. Whenever we find out new things about John, it's either small or something big that's usually never heard from again or just brought up in passing.

I mean, we found out he has an ex-wife, that they're still friends and... that was it?

Well, I don't expect them to spill everything at once. I heard a quote once that the fastest way to be boring is to say everything you know. It's nice to have some mystery with a character.

So, yes I want new info about John. I'm not asking for a life story....just some clues.

Infinite-Possibilities
November 15th, 2008, 08:10 PM
His mother? I thought it was pretty obvious he was torturing himself over the fact that he couldn't save Ford and Elizabeth. If it was about his mother it comes completely out of nowhere. I looked at it as Koyla himself wasn't specifically his worst fear, it is just that he was the most personal hated of his many enemies and thus the most impactful face of his fear. His worst fear was that he couldn't save everyone he cared about on Atlantis. Seeing as Koyla apparently had a plan to kill them all.

TragicComedy
November 15th, 2008, 08:17 PM
His mother? I thought it was pretty obvious he was torturing himself over the fact that he couldn't save Ford and Elizabeth. If it was about his mother it comes completely out of nowhere. I looked at it as Koyla himself wasn't specifically his worst fear, it is just that he was the most personal hated of his many enemies and thus the most impactful face of his fear. His worst fear was that he couldn't save everyone he cared about on Atlantis. Seeing as Koyla apparently had a plan to kill them all.

Oh yeah. I definitely see that. Mallozzi's point was in having the darkness that John has not start at say when he tried to save his friends on that botched mission on earth (I haven't actually seen that epi so I may have that wrong) but maybe have that torturous devil may care death wish attitude John has to have started before that with something that happened to his mother.

I've been curious about Sheppard's mom ever since Outcast.

Stargantic
November 16th, 2008, 05:52 AM
I think this episode did sow another side of Sheppard, the vunerable side. I don't think it was his dark side. These are his fears, his failures. For "Mr. I'm-not-afaid-of-anything"
This was all new for him. he couldn't control the situation.
He tourtures himself about the deaths and missing members, we know that, this time we got to see it, what it manifested into.

Pegasus_SGA
November 16th, 2008, 03:44 PM
it should have taking up more of the ep


i'm a little disappointed
You and me both... I ranted on JM's blog about it. :lol: I mean if we're delving into someone's deep and dark subconscious, there's usually a reason they behave in that way and why they torture themselves... and we still don't have an answer, and no team luff. :( So disappointed that after 5 years we have reasons for all of the team as to why they behave and act the way they do (including Keller and Woolsey), everybody except for the main character!! That says a lot!! :(

Elinor
November 17th, 2008, 06:58 AM
it should have taking up more of the ep


i'm a little disappointed

Yep, me to. I would have liked lots more of the Shep and Kolya story, a little less of Woolsey (although I am liking him a lot, there was a bit too much chatting in there for me) and a LOT less of the Rodney story. Blinkin' flip, there's been tons for him this season! I'm starting to feel like Harmony...'Your voice hurts my ears!' :lol:

Oh how I would love for us to delve deeper into the dark, mysterious, complicated, tortured mind of a certain Lt.Col. Guess we haven't got much chance of seeing that now.

:(

Pitry
November 17th, 2008, 07:09 AM
Those parts of his character have been constantly defined throughout the series.

We've seen dark!Sheppard since Rising, highlighted again in The Eye, The Siege, Miller's Crossing, and most recently in Outsiders.

We've seen his sacrificial nature in The Siege, The Ark, Search and Rescue, The Seed, and most recently in Prodigal.

What was new here?

Very true. It's a bit like Ronon - all we ever get to see of his character is how much he hates the wraith.

I always felt character development is about stertching the boundaries of the character, not repeating the same thing over and over again, this didn't tell us anythign new about Sheppard, not really. "tortured soul" and "willingness to sacrifice self for others" aren't really a definition of a human being.

SGAtlantisP60
November 20th, 2008, 04:39 AM
the episode timing with him was fine... i really liked the episode the way it is.