What would Pegasus look like if not for Earth?

[rarocks24]

Bare with me for a second, because this post might get a little long.

1. The Wraith were asleep for a period of 150 years. This occurs quite often, and the Wraith took significant effort to protect themselves. Planets with gates in orbit, rather than on the ground, became their slumbering places. This also denied many races the ability to ground attack the hive or send bombs through. However, we know that there are at least one group of humans in Pegasus that have ships capable of interstellar travel. They are the Travelers.
2. We also know that the Genii were close to development of the atomic bomb. These weapons were developed on Earth during the 1940's, and only two were ever used against any world city since their inception. Despite that, they cause fear in just about everyone. Part of this achievement among the Genii comes from the fact that the Wraith seemingly passed on culling the Genii homeworld for the past estimated 600 years. This may be due to the Genii being spared two cullings, or that the hive that historically culls Genii was destroyed.
3. The Hoffans were close to completion of a drug that would cause humans to become immune to the Wraith feeding process. Great care was taken culliing after culling to ensure that this does not fall into the hands of the enemy. Chances are, the Scientists were never captured, and when the Wraith came, they'd remain in the library until such time as the Wraith had passed on to cull another world. Despite the virus's terminal rate, which may have been the reason it was held off for as long as it was, was because of the virus's lethality. A working version may have been completed by the time the Wraith awoke.
4. The Princess who came to worship Dr. Mckay would eventually have access to hundreds of thousands of drones from the research facility. Either that, or one of her crooked sisters. Her world could make a stand against the Wraith, though if the Wraith came to destroy them, other than firing thousands of drones, there'd be not much they could do. It would be mutually assured destruction.
5. Alliances. Human worlds have alliances with each other. And although they are not particularly strong alliances, they still have them. The only reason the Wraith haven't attempted to shut this down is because they realize the human worlds are interdependent on each other.

So this all comes down to the Travelers. Had the Genii perfected the nuclear bomb, the Travelers would be presented with the perfect scenario. The ability to hit the Wraith while they slumbered, completely unaware of the successful development of the atomic bomb. Countless Wraith would have been killed in a matter of minutes. To those that say the Wraith could intercept the nukes, remember the Lost Tribe, which opened a hyperspace window inside the planet's atmosphere. They could do something incredibly similar, and by the time the Wraith were able to scramble a first strike response, the hive would be destroyed. Remember, a nuclear bomb is all the more powerful in a planet's atmosphere than in space due to the degree of matter that would be effected.

The sudden surprise attack from no where could begin a long cat and mouse game on the part of the Wraith. Since the Travelers have survived as a nomadic space people for thousands of years, it is safe to say that the Wraith don't have nearly as much control over the Pegasus Galaxy as was believed. Hunting the Travelers' ships down could be incredibly difficult and time consuming. The introduction of the Hoffan drug, which was near completion without Dr. Beckett's help anyways, would also have effected the Wraith negatively, particularly if the Travelers were baiting them to travel to worlds that they could have introduced the drug to.

Now would this spell utter defeat of the Wraith, no. However, we'd see a balance of power beginning to assert itself in Pegasus. Furthermore, it's possible that another faction of humans would eventually discover the Asurans, and the temptation to turn them back on if the chance presented itself would be too good to pass up. We know there are technically advanced species other than the Travelers out there, hiding from the Wraith.

All the arrival of Atlantis did was to expedite the situations that were to occur naturally. The only thing Atlantis contributed to was the menace known as Michael. Ultimately however, Michael decided to act of his own free will his policies of creating hybrids to fight the Wraith. And Michael's attacks would be negated if the Hoffans introduced the drug rather him. And the drug was the sole damaging factor to the Wraith. And then, all the humans had to do was outlast the Wraith's awakening period, and the scenario of bloodshed would occur again.

IMO, regardless of whether Atlantis returned or not, whether it's ten, twenty, fifty, or another hundred years, you would see similar events to what had occurred in the past five.

Feel free to address objections, thoughts, opinions, etc. I know there are a myriad of other ways things could play out in Pegasus.

[stargate70]

I think it likely that other races have tried to create anti-wraith weapons in previous culling lulls. It might be possible to do some damage, but the wraith can't be taken out en-mass with nukes unless there are beaming systems to deploy them. The genii don't have starships and wouldn't be able to reach planets with space gates. Also, I think the wraith keepers would notice food poisoning and act before it got out of control. To defeat the wraith these weapons are helpful, to be sure, but starships are necessary.

[rarocks24]

I think it likely that other races have tried to create anti-wraith weapons in previous culling lulls. It might be possible to do some damage, but the wraith can't be taken out en-mass with nukes unless there are beaming systems to deploy them. The genii don't have starships and wouldn't be able to reach planets with space gates. Also, I think the wraith keepers would notice food poisoning and act before it got out of control. To defeat the wraith these weapons are helpful, to be sure, but starships are necessary.

That's why I mentioned the Travelers. The Genii hook up with the Travelers, and are used as the Genii's means of delivery for the nukes.

[Nemises]

Bare with me for a second, because this post might get a little long.


The Wraith were asleep for a period of 150 years. This occurs quite often, and the Wraith took significant effort to protect themselves. Planets with gates in orbit, rather than on the ground, became their slumbering places. This also denied many races the ability to ground attack the hive or send bombs through. However, we know that there are at least one group of humans in Pegasus that have ships capable of interstellar travel. They are the Travelers.

correct.

We also know that the Genii were close to development of the atomic bomb. These weapons were developed on Earth during the 1940's, and only two were ever used against any world city since their inception. Despite that, they cause fear in just about everyone. Part of this achievement among the Genii comes from the fact that the Wraith seemingly passed on culling the Genii homeworld for the past estimated 600 years. This may be due to the Genii being spared two cullings, or that the hive that historically culls Genii was destroyed.

the genii would have taken many more years to complete the atomic bomb but there bomb is nowhere near as powerful as our's but it would still get the job done.

The Hoffans were close to completion of a drug that would cause humans to become immune to the Wraith feeding process. Great care was taken culliing after culling to ensure that this does not fall into the hands of the enemy. Chances are, the Scientists were never captured, and when the Wraith came, they'd remain in the library until such time as the Wraith had passed on to cull another world. Despite the virus's terminal rate, which may have been the reason it was held off for as long as it was, was because of the virus's lethality. A working version may have been completed by the time the Wraith awoke.

again they would have taken decades to come up with the drug and even with the help of atlantis the drug was not "successful" as it killed half of the people who took the drug. if the wraith found out about it they would destroy the whole planet. for the drug to be succesful every human on every world would need to take it before the wraith woke up so the wraith would die of hunger and would start feeding on eachother. Mind you if that situation arose the wraith would decided to kill all the humans if they eventually were to die of hunger.

The Princess who came to worship Dr. Mckay would eventually have access to hundreds of thousands of drones from the research facility. Either that, or one of her crooked sisters. Her world could make a stand against the Wraith, though if the Wraith came to destroy them, other than firing thousands of drones, there'd be not much they could do. It would be mutually assured destruction.

they'll put up a fight but would eventually lose. did they even have shields ? they were under the ground and the whole place was coming down as it is.

Alliances. Human worlds have alliances with each other. And although they are not particularly strong alliances, they still have them. The only reason the Wraith haven't attempted to shut this down is because they realize the human worlds are interdependent on each other.[/LIST]

not alliances but more like trading partners but as you said they were not a threat to the wraith.

So this all comes down to the Travelers. Had the Genii perfected the nuclear bomb, the Travelers would be presented with the perfect scenario. The ability to hit the Wraith while they slumbered, completely unaware of the successful development of the atomic bomb. Countless Wraith would have been killed in a matter of minutes. To those that say the Wraith could intercept the nukes, remember the Lost Tribe, which opened a hyperspace window inside the planet's atmosphere. They could do something incredibly similar, and by the time the Wraith were able to scramble a first strike response, the hive would be destroyed. Remember, a nuclear bomb is all the more powerful in a planet's atmosphere than in space due to the degree of matter that would be effected.

atomic bomb. i dont think the genii even know about the travelers in the first place and even if they did then they would need to make dozens of bombs and blow them up simultaneously so that the wraith dont have a chance to figure out whats happening. Plus i doubt the travelers even know all the planets where the wraith are "sleeping".

The sudden surprise attack from no where could begin a long cat and mouse game on the part of the Wraith. Since the Travelers have survived as a nomadic space people for thousands of years, it is safe to say that the Wraith don't have nearly as much control over the Pegasus Galaxy as was believed. Hunting the Travelers' ships down could be incredibly difficult and time consuming. The introduction of the Hoffan drug, which was near completion without Dr. Beckett's help anyways, would also have effected the Wraith negatively, particularly if the Travelers were baiting them to travel to worlds that they could have introduced the drug to.

Now would this spell utter defeat of the Wraith, no. However, we'd see a balance of power beginning to assert itself in Pegasus. Furthermore, it's possible that another faction of humans would eventually discover the Asurans, and the temptation to turn them back on if the chance presented itself would be too good to pass up. We know there are technically advanced species other than the Travelers out there, hiding from the Wraith.

All the arrival of Atlantis did was to expedite the situations that were to occur naturally. The only thing Atlantis contributed to was the menace known as Michael. Ultimately however, Michael decided to act of his own free will his policies of creating hybrids to fight the Wraith. And Michael's attacks would be negated if the Hoffans introduced the drug rather him. And the drug was the sole damaging factor to the Wraith. And then, all the humans had to do was outlast the Wraith's awakening period, and the scenario of bloodshed would occur again.

IMO, regardless of whether Atlantis returned or not, whether it's ten, twenty, fifty, or another hundred years, you would see similar events to what had occurred in the past five.

Feel free to address objections, thoughts, opinions, etc. I know there are a myriad of other ways things could play out in Pegasus.

To summarise they would cause damage to the wraith but they wouldn't be able to defeat them without the help from atlantis. Im not sure whether even atlantis alone can defeat all of the wraith. A couple dozen of 304's with asgard beams wouldn't hurt either

[Xaeden]

The thing with the Travelers is that, even if they don't have bombs that they can launch at a Hive very quickly (which we don't know that they don't) and then get right out of there, they should be able to take out a dormant Hive without them. The weapons on dormant Hives were powered down, they didn't have enough awake Wraith to launch waves of darts, and the Traveler's weapons are pretty powerful. With a sneak attack they should've been able to completely disable the Wraith ship before the few awake could scramble to form any kind of defense and then the Travelers could quickly finish it off. However, they don't seem to have enough ships or resources to make such an attack possible so they've avoided the Wraith almost completely.

They're also not the type to willing work with others (look at how much Sheppard had to go through to get them to trust him [Atlantis still doesn't know how to contact them though] - nevermind the Genii who aren't as noble and aren't too keen on letting someone else take the lead) and they don't know where every single Hive is located. An attack on a sleeping population of Wraith would only work if they can target every Hive and Cruiser almost at once. Otherwise, they'll just wake up anyway and go after this new threat which won't necessarily be so lucky as to fight off their first wave and then find a way to completely hide until the Wraith begin fighting amongst themselves. While the Travelers aren't that easy to track, they're still bound to lose resources that they have no way to replace as a result of such a move. Both because entire ships are destroyed and because individual ships will take damage to systems that even they can't replace or find a workaround for (at least Earth can help them in the case of the latter - The Genii cannot).

So I don't see how that would help and without Earth ever going to the Pegasus galaxy...

-Atlantis would be destroyed by now or, at least, very soon (it only had a few years left before the shields collapsed completely). Which means the technology that was used to defeat the replicators would be gone and they would just be sitting there, waiting. If Humans really did defeat the Wraith, it's very much possible that the Asurans could've come to see Humans as a threat and moved against them. It was just a matter of time and they weren't going anywhere.

- From the recent mid-season cliffhanger:

Spoiler:

The Asgard might've found out how to active the Attero device on their own (they too had time) and there would've been nobody who knew how to stop them as both Human worlds and the Wraith suffered greatly. All they needed was a Human with an Ancient gene (which existed here and there) and either the device taken from Janus' lab or a workaround so it can be actived without it. It's doubtful that they didn't know where Atlantis was located and through some reasoning they might think to search for it there (the reason they didn't do so this time around was perhaps because the city already moved by the time they found the Attero device). All they'd have to do is then figure out that Atlantis is at the bottom of the ocean, (which might not be a problem for them if their sensors are more advanced than the Wraith's) fly down there with their shields protecting them from the ocean's pressure, and try to find it despite the flooding and massive amount of space to cover. But, that might be easier for them if they can supplement some of the power to the shields or cause the city to rise on their own (they were able to use the computers in the facility, so they might be able to access Atlantis' computers without someone with the gene walking around).

[rsanchez]

It is not reasonable to assume that the Wraith would have a hard time finding the Travelers should the Travelers decide to openly attack the Wraith. If the Wraith were to organize a search for this rogue race, they would undoubtedly wake their fellow Wraith throughout the galaxy, leading to the situation we have now, but without Atlantis.
The only hope for Pegasus would have been the Asgard. They were determined to destroy the Wraith, and chances are good that the Asgard would have eventually found a way to activate the Attero device. There would have been greater chances for the Asgard to defeat the Wraith if they explored the galaxy, and eventually found Asuras. The Asgard would have been able to activate the attack code of the Replicators. Both scenarios would lead to the defeat of the Wraith. However, significant human losses would be incurred, comparable or even exceeding the losses currently suffered by the Wraith all waking at once or the Replicators attacking human worlds.
Either way, the future for humans in Pegasus wasn't at all bright until the Expedition came along, and suddenly became brighter when we acquired the technology to quickly and easily destroy Wraith hive ships. Without us, humans would still live with little hope of advancement or freedom from the Wraith, and their destiny would still be either feed the Wraith or die in another way. These are the beings who defeated the Wraith, and humans with ships and nukes would do nothing to diminish Wraith numbers or loosen their control on the galaxy.

[HotOne]

I don't think the Travelers were ever enough of a threat to the Wraith. That is why the Wraith never "found them." If the Wraith believed they were a threat they would have hunted them down and destroyed them. The Travelers are largely a dieing race with ships in disrepair. I think some of their portrayal has been dialed up for certain episodes but I really don't see their weapons as anywhere near as powerful as those of the Wraith.

As for the Genii I don't really seem them as being able to cooperate with the Travelers if they ever even came across each other. And as soon as the Wraith find out the Genii are any sort of threat they would be destroyed too. I don't think the Genii "avoided" being culled, they just hid the vast majority of their technology underground. If I remember right (and maybe I don't) they have been culled but the Wraith knew nothing of their underground facilities. Above ground they never showed any hint of advanced technology.

[Giantevilhead]

Since the Wraith would still be hibernating, the Asgard may be able to rebuild some of their civilization. If they remain undetected then they'll have plenty of time to figure out a plan to eradicate the Wraith.

[ASAKATA]

I think that while we inadvertantly woke the Wratih early, it was actually more a of a blessing than a curse. What kind of life was it in the Pegasus Galaxy where you lived so many generations, if you can call it that, only to have your friends and family culled. We had awoken all the Wraith in the galaxy to a scarcely populated feeding ground. We had caused them to fight each other for the right to feed. We had the ability to not only bring ancient tech to life, but to use it with more understanding than the inhabitants of PG.

If we had not come when we did, the Wraith would have slept to whatever time they had decided, in a time when the human populations in the PG were large enough to sustain them. The cycle of life and death, in its own sick and twisted form, would start over, and would continue over and over again.

We are their saving grace, the reason we cant leave and the reason why the wraith are killing each other, the future of PG is better with us there.

[rarocks24]

I think that while we inadvertantly woke the Wratih early, it was actually more a of a blessing than a curse. What kind of life was it in the Pegasus Galaxy where you lived so many generations, if you can call it that, only to have your friends and family culled. We had awoken all the Wraith in the galaxy to a scarcely populated feeding ground. We had caused them to fight each other for the right to feed. We had the ability to not only bring ancient tech to life, but to use it with more understanding than the inhabitants of PG.

If we had not come when we did, the Wraith would have slept to whatever time they had decided, in a time when the human populations in the PG were large enough to sustain them. The cycle of life and death, in its own sick and twisted form, would start over, and would continue over and over again.

We are their saving grace, the reason we cant leave and the reason why the wraith are killing each other, the future of PG is better with us there.

Asa, you misinterpret the point of this thread. I never said it would be better if we weren't. I'm merely pointing out that with the natural evolution of the Genii, Hoffans, and Travelers, that eventually things similar would occur. The human population was nowhere near the size the Wraith could have sustained themselves when Atlantis woke it up (due to the last one), but we also know that the human population has been in decline, due mostly to cullings. The Wraith were running out of food, and the Civil War would only have been inevitable, as was the development of the atomic bomb and the drug that Beckett worked on.

Merely, that in another few hundred years, things in Pegasus would have occurred that would have only weakened the Wraith further.

We also know that there are other human populations that are technologically advanced and are in hiding. Do they have ships? From Dr. Weir's statements in Gift of the Machine, there seems to be. There was also that encounter where Sheppard and Dr. Weir were possessed, which also indicates another technologically advanced species capable of space flight.

[HotOne]

Asa, you misinterpret the point of this thread. I never said it would be better if we weren't. I'm merely pointing out that with the natural evolution of the Genii, Hoffans, and Travelers, that eventually things similar would occur. The human population was nowhere near the size the Wraith could have sustained themselves when Atlantis woke it up (due to the last one), but we also know that the human population has been in decline, due mostly to cullings. The Wraith were running out of food, and the Civil War would only have been inevitable, as was the development of the atomic bomb and the drug that Beckett worked on.

Merely, that in another few hundred years, things in Pegasus would have occurred that would have only weakened the Wraith further.

We also know that there are other human populations that are technologically advanced and are in hiding. Do they have ships? From Dr. Weir's statements in Gift of the Machine, there seems to be. There was also that encounter where Sheppard and Dr. Weir were possessed, which also indicates another technologically advanced species capable of space flight.

I don't think the Civil War would have been inevitable. We have no way of knowing how much longer the Wraith would have hibernated. I'm sure there is always some fighting amongst hives but they largely have their own territories. They likely would have slept for another 50 years or so which would have allowed human populations to become larger.

I know that the Genii, the Travelers and the Hoffans have evolving technology but so do the Wraith. I'm sorry but no matter how much of a quick strike with nukes they would have been able to assemble it would have not made any decent sized impact. Sooner or later after seeing other hives nuked the Wraith would start hunting down the Traveler's ships and find the source of the nukes.

The races Weir talked about are not necessarily capable or willing to take down the Wraith. I think the Asgard are probably one of the races she was talking about and I don't think their small contingent was capable by any means. For all we know their could be other civilizations like the Nox that would not fight the Wraith. The Asurans were more capable of destroying the Wraith but they had no real desire to do so until we altered their programming back to its original state.

[ASAKATA]

I apologize, I did indeed misinterpret the thread. That said, I kind of eluded to the fate of the PG had we not arrived. How early did the Wraith awakening occur? If they had been allowed to sleep just 100 to 200 years, the wraith would have woken up to a more than replenished crop of Humans.
What about the wraith during this time, Obviously they dont all sleep, they are keeping watch on their food supply too. The Genii are able to work in secret because they are all underground, but even a hint of treachery would have their entire civilization destroyed. I think we underestimate the threat the Wraith were even asleep.

Just a thought, even if it is incomplete

[Arrakis2013]

I think it would look like a bunch of stars all in close proximity if not for Earth. Nobody has the guts for a strike against the Wraith. The Genii included. And even if the Genii did strike they, the Wraith, would be able to locate them and would come down on them like a "bag of hammers" as Colonel Mitchell once said (his reference about the Ori). A Wraith Hive would be sent. They would have thousands of troops on the ground, plus planetary bombardment to destroy the threat. That's what I think.

If you can't destroy the message, then destroy the messenger. Unlike Seteda they would have left no survivors if they could do anything about it. I don't think Seteda had nukes and a nuke is a very real threat to a Hive. They would have left no survivors and that's all there is to it.

[spinny magee]

The Travelers would risk it as we know once they lose a ship apparently there is no replacement so the question is would they really risk all their ships to attack the wraith? It would be brave but stupid considering their situation.

The Genii never really could of threatened the wraith severely we know so far that they have no ships and no firing mechanism for the nuke so how would they use it? As a last defence weapon? Probably not since wraith normally only use darts for cullings their device was a plant and explode weapon much like c4.

The hoffan drug was never going to be effective in time for the awakening of the wraith their efforts would of been fruitless and they would be wiped out.

As for harmony's people frankly they looked like they were in the Medieval stage they wouldn't know how to operate or attack wraith ships and i doubt they ever have

[Col.Ads]

Without the Atlantis Expidition..


Genii would have probably sterilised there population due to radiation and not completed the bomb to a standard capable of doing enough damage to a hive, bear in mind they needed our C4 and McKay had to mad modifications to there design, take that into account and they were on schedule to deliver the bombs but not effectivly. Genii in my view would be punching above their weight as usual.

Travellers, I really cant see them exposing themselves to the likes of the Genii or many others for that matter
The main reason they ally themselves with atlantis is more than likely due to them knowing what sort of technology and power we have at our disposal and when it comes down to it they can rely of us to help them out if things go pair shaped, where as no other races can do that realisticly that we have encountered.

Hoffans all depends on how much time before the culling as Beckett advanced there research significantly to the extent of completetion and put into practice, without him I believe they would get it right but I would not think it would happen to the last minute before the wraith awoke.



Im not being to Bias but on the whole Pegasus is better for us being there than not as the Wraiths immense resources in comparison to what the Galaxy had to offer before we came along would have over whelmed any sort of reblion against them in my view.