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Corgano
November 8th, 2008, 04:07 PM
There were many plot holes (not killing or at least securing Ronin, and many other things), but those are things I can ignore and still enjoy the story. But there is one thing in this episode, that I find very disappointing. Atlantis didn't have to pay a high enough price for their actions!

So what do I mean by this? The team of Atlantis did several things, which were at least morally questionable:

- They captured Michael (morally ok, since they are at war) and used him to test a biological weapon (morally definitely not ok)

- After helping them to defeat two hives, protecting Earth and getting their ship AND the conquered hive back to Atlantis, they thanked him by transforming him AGAIN, even though he would have preferred to be killed! (I would call this kind of behavior not only morally wrong but downright "evil")


Yes, Michael had to be stopped. He was evil and a great danger to many, many people. But it was Atlantis who's (morally wrong) behavior created this threat in the first place and for that they should have had to pay the price! Killing Michael should have cost some terrible price (one or more main charakters get killed or permanently maimed, Atlantis suffers permanent damage, or something like that ...)

The reason for this is simple:
In a universe like "Star Gate", where in the end good always prevails over evil, evil deeds should never go unpunished! Especially if the "good guys" are the ones commiting those deeds!

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 04:20 PM
There were many plot holes (not killing or at least securing Ronin, and many other things), but those are things I can ignore and still enjoy the story. But there is one thing in this episode, that I find very disappointing. Atlantis didn't have to pay a high enough price for their actions!

So what do I mean by this? The team of Atlantis did several things, which were at least morally questionable:

- They captured Michael (morally ok, since they are at war) and used him to test a biological weapon (morally definitely not ok)

- After helping them to defeat two hives, protecting Earth and getting their ship AND the conquered hive back to Atlantis, they thanked him by transforming him AGAIN, even though he would have preferred to be killed! (I would call this kind of behavior not only morally wrong but downright "evil")


Yes, Michael had to be stopped. He was evil and a great danger to many, many people. But it was Atlantis who's (morally wrong) behavior created this threat in the first place and for that they should have had to pay the price! Killing Michael should have cost some terrible price (one or more main charchters get killed or permanently maimed, Atlantis suffers permanent damage, or something like that ...)

The reason for this is simple:
In a universe like "Star Gate", where in the end good always prevails over evil, evil deeds should never go unpunished! Especially if the "good guys" are the ones commiting those deeds!

They did get put on trial and one of the crimes was creating Michael, but they got off on it. They were desperate for a way to stop the Wraith and did some questionable things. I think they should have killed him when they rescued Teyla from him in Michael (why didn't they???), his helping them in No Man's Land and Misbegotten was simply out of sheer self-preservation, he was not really on their side. I think they just couldn't bring themselves to kill him when he was a prisoner and wanted to give him a chance at a new life but that turned out disasterous. Would they really kill off a main charchter just to deal with such a threat like him??? He's not worth that. Damage to Atlantis??? Possibly, but he just didn't have the resources to do something like that at the end after his ship was destroyed by the Daedalus. He did try to kill Ronon (who was injured), but was stopped by the destruction of his Jumper. I almost expected him to get away again, but he needed to be killed off. They overused his charchter too much as a villan.

stargatelvr
November 8th, 2008, 05:05 PM
I have to aggree. I was wondoring about that as well

Col.Foley
November 8th, 2008, 05:56 PM
Well I would agree except that Atlantis already has paid a pretty steep price for this. Especially Teyla, and Carson. Micheal spread a plague around to most of the galaxy, killed millions of people, and if that was not bad enough, he also experimented on humans trying to turn them into super Monsters, or slaves in the long run.
Now each and everyone of these descisions probably weigh heavily on the teams collective consionce, except for perhaps Shep, and definatly Ronon. But Teyla, Sam, and Woolsey, and especially Carson has been paying for that single descsion for years now. And now they can finally put it to rest once and for all.
We even saw Carson battling with the moral implications of that descision earlier in the season. The Atlantis team sowed the wind, and they reaped the whirl wind.
I think the whole thing with Micheal, as bad as it was for the team to do it, is a credit to the writers, and even though they have made many large, and small mistakes. This whole arc has been well written, and an interesting excercise to watch.

ha'tak_
November 9th, 2008, 05:12 AM
There were many plot holes (not killing or at least securing Ronin, and many other things), but those are things I can ignore and still enjoy the story. But there is one thing in this episode, that I find very disappointing. Atlantis didn't have to pay a high enough price for their actions!

So what do I mean by this? The team of Atlantis did several things, which were at least morally questionable:

- They captured Michael (morally ok, since they are at war) and used him to test a biological weapon (morally definitely not ok)

- After helping them to defeat two hives, protecting Earth and getting their ship AND the conquered hive back to Atlantis, they thanked him by transforming him AGAIN, even though he would have preferred to be killed! (I would call this kind of behavior not only morally wrong but downright "evil")


Yes, Michael had to be stopped. He was evil and a great danger to many, many people. But it was Atlantis who's (morally wrong) behavior created this threat in the first place and for that they should have had to pay the price! Killing Michael should have cost some terrible price (one or more main charakters get killed or permanently maimed, Atlantis suffers permanent damage, or something like that ...)

The reason for this is simple:
In a universe like "Star Gate", where in the end good always prevails over evil, evil deeds should never go unpunished! Especially if the "good guys" are the ones commiting those deeds!

didnot pay enought high prize the came sek from be destroyed(and if they had this whoult have been ther last episode),

wolssey broke his arm


and how is going to take to puddle jumper from the gate room when the 304 are not around hehe

but for real the first point

Corgano
November 9th, 2008, 03:03 PM
Well I would agree except that Atlantis already has paid a pretty steep price for this. Especially Teyla, and Carson. Micheal spread a plague around to most of the galaxy, killed millions of people, and if that was not bad enough, he also experimented on humans trying to turn them into super Monsters, or slaves in the long run.
Now each and everyone of these descisions probably weigh heavily on the teams collective consionce, except for perhaps Shep, and definatly Ronon. But Teyla, Sam, and Woolsey, and especially Carson has been paying for that single descsion for years now. And now they can finally put it to rest once and for all.
We even saw Carson battling with the moral implications of that descision earlier in the season. The Atlantis team sowed the wind, and they reaped the whirl wind.
I think the whole thing with Micheal, as bad as it was for the team to do it, is a credit to the writers, and even though they have made many large, and small mistakes. This whole arc has been well written, and an interesting excercise to watch.

They did have to pay a price, but in my opinion it wasn't high enough (the galaxy paid a hell of a price, but not Atlantis itself).

In my opinion Michael was the kind of bad guy, who should leave a permanent mark on the good guys, even after he has been defeated! The victory over such an enemy should (imho) taste almost as bitter as a defeat. It should be the kind of victory, where the hero(es) has to make a huge sacrifice in order to finally be capable of defeating the bad guy, once and for all.

Col.Foley
November 9th, 2008, 08:40 PM
They did have to pay a price, but in my opinion it wasn't high enough (the galaxy paid a hell of a price, but not Atlantis itself).

In my opinion Michael was the kind of bad guy, who should leave a permanent mark on the good guys, even after he has been defeated! The victory over such an enemy should (imho) taste almost as bitter as a defeat. It should be the kind of victory, where the hero(es) has to make a huge sacrifice in order to finally be capable of defeating the bad guy, once and for all.
But part of my point is I think some of the main characters did pay a hell of a price. becket was cloned, then forced to work on a virus that killed millions. Teyla let him go. Shep...gave the orders...and also let him go. Each and every death I really think would be on their consious, and it is a bitter pill for some of them to swallow.

Ouroboros
November 9th, 2008, 08:50 PM
The most ultimately balanced thing would have been for the auto destruct to actually go off when he was still trapped there at the end, killing him and the people most responsible for the horrible crimes perpetrated on him and destroying the magnificent city the expedition's leadership had so consistantly abused the privilege of having.

The other innocent unknowing expedition members plus Teyla and her baby could be evacuated or something before hand while the "heroes" responsible for the original perversion of science and ethics that created Michael attempted to stop him.

Col.Foley
November 9th, 2008, 08:54 PM
The most ultimately balanced thing would have been for the auto destruct to actually go off when he was still trapped there at the end, killing him and the people most responsible for the horrible crimes perpetrated on him and destroying the magnificent city the expedition's leadership had so consistantly abused the privilege of having.

The other innocent unknowing expedition members plus Teyla and her baby could be evacuated or something before hand while the "heroes" responsible for the original perversion of science and ethics that created Michael attempted to stop him.
Yeah, but then there would be no show......
I just think they made a mistake...it happens...it was a pretty grizly mistake...(two of them)...but at least they tried, and ultimatly succeeded, in correcting it.

Ouroboros
November 9th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Yeah, but then there would be no show......
I just think they made a mistake...it happens...it was a pretty grizly mistake...(two of them)...but at least they tried, and ultimatly succeeded, in correcting it.

Well it's cancelled anyway, just make this one 5.20 and set the movie before it somehow, or make this the movie.:D

Mister Oragahn
November 20th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Yeah, but then there would be no show......
I just think they made a mistake...it happens...it was a pretty grizly mistake...(two of them)...but at least they tried, and ultimatly succeeded, in correcting it.

Well, if we can consider this a correction. It feels more like giving the Dark Knight the ability to set off a nuke.