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View Full Version : Teyla's Choice (no, not THAT one)



FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 03:16 AM
I'm amazing no one's created a thread for this yet. What do you think about Teyla's choice? No, not her choice between giving up Torren and not giving him up. If she'd given him up, I'd totally lost respect for her. Saving herself and her friends or just saving herself and him or just saving him at the cost of the entire galaxy (she knew what would happen from "The Last Man"). If she'd done it, I would've hated her forever, especially since she knows better (which she did).

No, the choice I'm talking about is the fact that at the end of the episode, she chose to forcibly end Michael's life. Now, I'm not saying what she did was wrong (although it probably was by legal standards; not extending a hand to help, not murder, kicking someone's hands off, murder (possibly)), I'm just saying that it was very dark and un-Teyla-y.

I'm glad they finally gave her stuff to do (even if she spent most of the episode just standing/sitting/lying still either unconscious or being terrified. She got to kick ass, she got character development and she got to commit an act of uncharacteristic darkness that I'm sure is going to haunt her for a while (at least I hope so).

I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people, not John, not anyone else on Atlantis, but Teyla herself.

Anon
November 8th, 2008, 03:18 AM
um good ideas. BUT MICHeAL IS Finally dead!!!!!!

talyn2k1
November 8th, 2008, 03:20 AM
I think we finally saw a little of that dark side Teyla we were promised last season, but which they couldn't really do due to Rachel's pregnancy.

imho it was the only thing to do. Michael is resourceful enough that if they had just locked him up, there would have been too much chance of him finding a way to escape in the future.

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 03:22 AM
imho it was the only thing to do. Michael is resourceful enough that if they had just locked him up, there would have been too much chance of him finding a way to escape in the future.
This is why we have trials.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

jonos101
November 8th, 2008, 03:22 AM
I look at it this way. If someone who had killed 100,000s of people was hanging there in front of you, would you have killed him or just let him hang there with the chance of climbing up and living in Atlantis's brig for the rest of his life.

If it was me, I'd just want him to die.

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 03:24 AM
I look at it this way. If someone who had killed 100,000s of people was hanging there in front of you, would you have killed him or just let him hang there with the chance of climbing up and living in Atlantis's brig for the rest of his life.

If it was me, I'd just want him to die.
The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people.

jenks
November 8th, 2008, 03:37 AM
I don't think she was in her right mind, that's how I rationalise it. I don't think Teyla would normally murder an unarmed 'man' like that, the fact that he threatened her child and is a bit of a genocidal maniac probably didn't help his chances either.

rarocks24
November 8th, 2008, 04:14 AM
Michael kidnapped her people, experimented on some of them, including her mate, and murdered tens of thousands of others. Then, he abducted her and her child to be included in some grand bid for power over the Wraith. This was completely in line for Teyla. We saw some of The Queen in her.

Ouroboros
November 8th, 2008, 04:46 AM
It was a sad end for him for sure. He's been made into a monster by their experiments, both objectively and in his own eyes, and it's the only person who ever showed even some small measure of pity for him who finally takes his life.

If this scene had been done better, with Sheppard taken out of it for example and some well written dialog between the two, you could almost have made it look like a mercy killing. She can never forgive him for what he's done, and he knows that, he knows what he's become, but at least in killing him she can put an end to the torturous existence they forced on him.

Teyla was right to blame him for much of what he'd done, but at the same time it would have been nice to see her, or someone, acknowledge some responsability in what they did to him. The SGA expedition is hardly blameless and innocent in regard to what they turned him into, yet they've never expressed a morsel of regret for anything other than failing to kill him sooner.

There's an interesting philosophical point to be mused on as well, that it's not until they made him half human that he truely became a monster.

JackHarkness_Hot
November 8th, 2008, 04:49 AM
There are some things mothers (who love their child/children) would do that normally single people won't do. However, she knows that everybody on the base is doing everything they can not to let Atlantis get blown up by Michael or let him take her or her baby away without a fight.

Besides Michael was gonna blow up Atlantis regardless whether Teyla gives the baby to himor not, if she does and she gets killed, no one is gonna stop him but, since we also find out that Michael has the baby's DNA anyway, did it really matter what she chose? Michael still planned to destroy Atlantis.

So after all the threatening that Michael has done too, Teyla did the right thing by extinguishing this threat that is Michael.

Linda06
November 8th, 2008, 04:55 AM
I don't think she had a choice...I think as long as Michael lives her kid will never be safe...I liked seeing another side of Teyla...A darker side of her.....She would do anything to protect her child, even kill!

Classic
November 8th, 2008, 04:56 AM
It was a sad end for him for sure. He's been made into a monster by their experiments, both objectively and in his own eyes, and it's the only person who ever showed even some small measure of pity for him who finally takes his life.

If this scene had been done better, with Sheppard taken out of it for example and some well written dialog between the two, you could almost have made it look like a mercy killing. She can never forgive him for what he's done, and he knows that, he knows what he's become, but at least in killing him she can put an end to the torturous existence they forced on him.

Teyla was right to blame him for much of what he'd done, but at the same time it would have been nice to see her, or someone, acknowledge some responsability in what they did to him. The SGA expedition is hardly blameless and innocent in regard to what they turned him into, yet they've never expressed a morsel of regret for anything other than failing to kill him sooner.

There's an interesting philosophical point to be mused on as well, that it's not until they made him half human that he truely became a monster.

Good points and I agree. I think it was the right choice to have Teyla finally put an end to Michael (rather than Ronan as some people had suggested), but I would have liked some dialogue exchange between them at the very end to make her choice even more difficult. IMO, as soon as she handed over her baby and went looking for him, I knew she was going to kill Michael. It would have been interesting if he had said something like, "guess what, your child is really mine" and see if she really would have gone through with it, or she would had had a moral dilemna of her own at that point.

rea
November 8th, 2008, 05:58 AM
I was wondering about it in the beginning. But remember how often he was able to escape and I think Teyla knew he would always come back for her and especially her son. All that fear, hate and anxiety would probably move every mother to what she did. First, it felt out of character, but it wasn't, she's always been a fighter, she's killed before, now she's a mother defending her cub by any means necessary.

EternalAlteran
November 8th, 2008, 06:02 AM
I think Atlantis did a very bad thing. They made Michael. They let him switch between Wraith and human existence several times and tried to nuke him. They know well they are wrong, otherwise they would have told Todd they made him. As for Teyla, we have seen her murder someone who was defenseless in Missing. Also she told Ronon when he killed Kell (Trinity) that she might had done the same in his place. It wasn't really surprising she killed him. I think Atlantis is totally to blame for it and they should have killed him, but helped him. (This time without a retrovirus).

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
November 8th, 2008, 06:49 AM
It's Teyla's darkside resurfacing again, remember in The Queen when she sent all those darts to attack the other hive, knowing they would likely be destroyed.

The only problem is, because she hardly gets any development, we barely see this side of her.

Orion Antreas
November 8th, 2008, 07:15 AM
The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people.

Makes perfect sense in my opinion. Michael threatened her friends, herself, and her son multiple times. Like some say, "Never threaten a mother's baby because she will kick your ass."

So much anger and pain was building up in Teyla because of how Michael sinisterly treated her son and herself. It seems perfectly logical for her to end his life. She wanted to make sure that he would really be dead and best way of knowing that is doing it yourself. She did that allowing her to have closure and a clean conscious. Clean conscious as in she won't have to fear that he will threaten her child ever again.

I would have hated to have Shepard kill an enemy again. It was worth due to have Teyla kill one of her worst enemies (to herself and her son), show more of her dark side, and even develop her character further. As shown, we know Teyla isn't an angel and is a human who does have a dark side and will use it if her life or her son's is in danger.

The writers were right in having her kill of Michael. No one else could measure up to the dramatic effect she had when she did so.

Orion Antreas
November 8th, 2008, 07:16 AM
The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people.

Makes perfect sense in my opinion. Michael threatened her friends, herself, and her son multiple times. Like some say, "Never threaten a mother's baby because she will kick your ass."

So much anger and pain was building up in Teyla because of how Michael sinisterly treated her son and herself. It seems perfectly logical for her to end his life. She wanted to make sure that he would really be dead and best way of knowing that is doing it yourself. She did that allowing her to have closure and a sound mind. Sound mind as in she won't have to fear that he will threaten her child ever again.

I would have hated to have Shepard kill an enemy again. It was worth due to have Teyla kill one of her worst enemies (to herself and her son), show more of her dark side, and even develop her character further. As shown, we know Teyla isn't an angel and is a human who does have a dark side and will use it if her life or her son's is in danger.

The writers were right in having her kill of Michael. No one else could measure up to the dramatic effect she had when she did so.

Orange Crush
November 8th, 2008, 07:17 AM
I don't see it as being "dark" per se. That was pure mama bear, right there. He's obsessed with kidnapping her son and nearly blew up everyone she knows in an attempt to do so. If I were her, I'd do the same damn thing--"Let's not take any chances. I'm just gonna squish you."

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 07:22 AM
Makes perfect sense in my opinion. Michael threatened her friends, herself, and her son multiple times. Like some say, "Never threaten a mother's baby because she will kick your ass."
Actually, he didn't threaten her baby, not even once. He always reassured her the baby wouldn't be harmed (nor would she if she came with him). It was only by the end there that he abandoned them to their fate with the self-destruct.

He's still evil and stuff, but he didn't threaten the baby.

Ikaros
November 8th, 2008, 07:23 AM
I'm amazing no one's created a thread for this yet. What do you think about Teyla's choice? No, not her choice between giving up Torren and not giving him up. If she'd given him up, I'd totally lost respect for her. Saving herself and her friends or just saving herself and him or just saving him at the cost of the entire galaxy (she knew what would happen from "The Last Man"). If she'd done it, I would've hated her forever, especially since she knows better (which she did).

No, the choice I'm talking about is the fact that at the end of the episode, she chose to forcibly end Michael's life. Now, I'm not saying what she did was wrong (although it probably was by legal standards; not extending a hand to help, not murder, kicking someone's hands off, murder (possibly)), I'm just saying that it was very dark and un-Teyla-y.

I'm glad they finally gave her stuff to do (even if she spent most of the episode just standing/sitting/lying still either unconscious or being terrified. She got to kick ass, she got character development and she got to commit an act of uncharacteristic darkness that I'm sure is going to haunt her for a while (at least I hope so).

I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people, not John, not anyone else on Atlantis, but Teyla herself.

Never Get Between a Baby and it's MOTHER.
Yes it was dark, especially after the fact that Michael had almost desperatelly admitted(in his way) that he wanted/loved her.
But he was still half a Wraith, she couldn't possibly trust him with her baby's life. And she couldn't take that chance to let him go. He would be a permanent danger for her son.

ZOMG!b_cs
November 8th, 2008, 07:24 AM
She was absolutely protecting her family from future attempts by Michael to move forward with his evil plans.
She hesitated, sure. It's not something that's typically in her character to do, but she was strong enough to say "hey, I'll wrestle with my conscience later, I'll be ok".

Pic
November 8th, 2008, 07:40 AM
Not sure I'm ready to label it her "dark" side. After all, she's been a warrior all her life. She's been a leader of a people decimated time and time again by an all-powerful enemy. She's obviously had to make tough decisions in her life before Atlantis. By our cultural standards, they may seem "dark" but I would think to her, they're more practical and pragmatic.

I truly loved seeing hints of this depth in Teyla. Her attempting to balance motherhood with fighting ~ not only in her scenes with Michael, but in kicking the hybrid down the stairs & leaving her son with the gate-room tech ~ you could see the struggle in her face. Terrific job by RL.

bcharley
November 8th, 2008, 08:30 AM
Something else to consider is that eairler in the episode Sheppard gave a general order that Michael would recieve "no quarter". Meaning, Michael was to be killed on the spot, even if he surrendered. So Teyla didn't really have a choice to make, she was simply following orders.


To give you an idea of how unusual such an order is, it'd actually be a war crime if Sheppard was to give a "no quarter" order in a war here on earth. Though in the case of Michael, I'd say it was deserved.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
November 8th, 2008, 08:55 AM
I liked it. I was saying how the hero never just stands on the villain's hands in these situations, even when they really should. Then she did! It was like a deliberate subversion.

kymeric
November 8th, 2008, 08:57 AM
Just cemented Teyla as a badass mofo in my opinion. And if this was the last epsidoe of the season i would feel satisfied with Teylas arc across the 5 yrs.

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Not sure I'm ready to label it her "dark" side. After all, she's been a warrior all her life. She's been a leader of a people decimated time and time again by an all-powerful enemy. She's obviously had to make tough decisions in her life before Atlantis. By our cultural standards, they may seem "dark" but I would think to her, they're more practical and pragmatic.
But when someone is hanging on a ledge like that, helpless? To forcefully kick their hands off? I just don't see it as something she'd normally do.

She did it in this instance, for good reason. But it was still a bit extreme, because she's Teyla.

The point of discussion I was trying to raise is not the fact that she did it at all, but that she did it in that situation. Teyla forcefully ended the life of an already defeated enemy when she (IMO) would usually have saved their life and captured them in instances like that.

Michael had nowhere else to run. Even if he made out of that tower, short of defeating all of Atlantis, he was stuck on Atlantis, now a prisoner. Since he had no need to feed, they could lock him up permanently.

Yes, dangerous, yes, he's evil (and clearly nuts). But this is Teyla. This action for her was dark and extreme. For John, it would've been every day life. For Teyla, for Teyla, it was an interesting and powerful action, as demonstrated by John's reaction.

Some people seem to have missed that this is the issue I was trying to raise (not you, Pic), the fact that it was Teyla who did what she did in this very situation, not the fact that someone killed someone to protect their family.

If you stop to think about this, it was pretty dark and extreme, period. And I doubt Teyla's people make it a habit out of outright killing their opponents in situations like that.

Her people have a sense of "honor", after all.

bcharley
November 8th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Teyla forcefully ended the life of an already defeated enemy when she (IMO) would usually have saved their life and captured them in instances like that.

Michael had nowhere else to run. Even if he made out of that tower, short of defeating all of Atlantis, he was stuck on Atlantis, now a prisoner. Since he had no need to feed, they could lock him up permanently.


You're forgetting that Sheppard already decided that they wern't going to take him prisoner.


Sheppard: All right, we're giving Michael no quarter. If you get a shot at him, take it. Make sure he's dead.

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 10:48 AM
You're forgetting that Sheppard already decided that they wern't going to take him prisoner.

Sheppard: Allright, we're giving Michael no quarter. If you get a shot at him, take it. Make sure he's dead.
Irrelevant. Teyla's communicator was not tapped into the same channel. She didn't hear what John said, just as John didn't hear what she said into her communicator.

So it doesn't matter that John had decided what he and the rest of Atlantis going to do. Short of telepathy, Teyla did this entirely on her own.

bcharley
November 8th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Irrelevant. Teyla's communicator was not tapped into the same channel. She didn't hear what John said, just as John didn't hear what she said into her communicator.

So it doesn't matter that John had decided what he and the rest of Atlantis going to do. Short of telepathy, Teyla did this entirely on her own.

It's not irrelevant at all. Ok, let's say Teyla would have reached down and saved Michael. John just would have went over and pushed him off the tower.

That'd just be bad TV considering Teyla's actions in "The Queen" when she started fireing at the other hive just so she could kill Wraith, for the hell of it. After all Michael's put her through the past couple seasons, she had more then enough reason to want to kill him too.

Rosehawk
November 8th, 2008, 11:28 AM
If you stop to think about this, it was pretty dark and extreme, period. And I doubt Teyla's people make it a habit out of outright killing their opponents in situations like that.

Her people have a sense of "honor", after all.

Her people have a sense of "honor" however Michael was a Wraith and I doubt that "honor" would extend to the Wraith since the Wraith only bring death and destruction where ever they go. Michael may have been a hybrid but he was still seen primarily as a Wraith. Look what he did to all those people with his experiments. He killed alot of Teyla's people, people she cared about. Telya knew it would never end unless something more permenant was done.



You're forgetting that Sheppard already decided that they wern't going to take him prisoner.


Sheppard: All right, we're giving Michael no quarter. If you get a shot at him, take it. Make sure he's dead.
Remember, Sheppard already knew what Michael was capable of and what would happen to the Pegasus Galaxy if he got ahold of Teyla's child. He gave the order to "not quarter" in order to protect everyone in the Galaxy.

xandder
November 8th, 2008, 11:37 AM
the last 10 minutes of this episode is the best thing they have ever done with teyla. alot of people are saying that it seems out of character, but i dont it was, i think its just a natural progression for teyla to take that type of action against michael. As i was watching the fight between john and michael i was thinking 'teyla has to show up and kick his ass' if anyone else would have ended him it would of seemed wrong somehow. i just wished teyla woud of said something like 'goodbye michael' like she did in allies (i think its that episode, cant be sure)

this episode just reinforces the fact for me that its good that atlantis has ended, not because this episode was bad, because it wasn't, but because we can clearly see that rachel and teyla have serioulsy been under used when she could have had amazing storylines centred around the wraith and michael instead of just being in the background. even if the series had gone on i would doubt that teyla would again get this type of screen time, and i feel too much timem was again taken up by the shep/Mckay interaction, they should of left it down to teyla/ronon/michael, them three characters have so much baggage together that if they had more time together in this episode it would of made it a 10, instead of an 8, but thats just in my opinion.

EvenstarSRV
November 8th, 2008, 11:44 AM
But when someone is hanging on a ledge like that, helpless? To forcefully kick their hands off? I just don't see it as something she'd normally do.

She did it in this instance, for good reason. But it was still a bit extreme, because she's Teyla.

The point of discussion I was trying to raise is not the fact that she did it at all, but that she did it in that situation. Teyla forcefully ended the life of an already defeated enemy when she (IMO) would usually have saved their life and captured them in instances like that.

I agree that Teyla would normally capture a defeated enemy, but IMO Michael is hardly a usual enemy for her. He's personally put her through hell, kidnapping her multiple times, kidnapping and killing many of her people, and trying to kidnap her son. And I do think that Michael threatened her son, since he was willing to set off the self-destruct if she didn't go with him. To me, that was him saying 'come with me, or I'll kill you, your son, and everyone on Atlantis'.

I think Teyla's actions were very much in character because I saw it as a display of a mother's protectiveness. I was talking with a friend a mine a few months ago who recently became a mother, and she told me that for the first time in her life she feels like she could actually kill someone if they threatened her child. And this is someone who flinches at the idea of even playfully throwing a punch at a friend. So for a warrior like Teyla who's no stranger to killing, I didn't think it was too much of a stretch for her to kill Michael in that way.



Yes, dangerous, yes, he's evil (and clearly nuts). But this is Teyla. This action for her was dark and extreme. For John, it would've been every day life. For Teyla, for Teyla, it was an interesting and powerful action, as demonstrated by John's reaction.

Some people seem to have missed that this is the issue I was trying to raise (not you, Pic), the fact that it was Teyla who did what she did in this very situation, not the fact that someone killed someone to protect their family.

If you stop to think about this, it was pretty dark and extreme, period. And I doubt Teyla's people make it a habit out of outright killing their opponents in situations like that.

Her people have a sense of "honor", after all.

I find those bolded points interesting, since if what you sees as a dark and extreme action is abnormal for Teyla and her people but completely normal for Sheppard, then by that logic Sheppard doesn't have a similar sense of honor as the Athosians concerning defeated opponents? He is an Air Force officer, after all.

FallenAngelII
November 8th, 2008, 11:45 AM
It's not irrelevant at all. Ok, let's say Teyla would have reached down and saved Michael. John just would have went over and pushed him off the tower.
But the point of this thread is to discuss Teyla's actions, Teyla's mindset, Teyla herself.

Not what would have happened anyway. We're discussing what Teyla did, why she did it and how it was so different from what she normally would've done things.


That'd just be bad TV considering Teyla's actions in "The Queen" when she started fireing at the other hive just so she could kill Wraith, for the hell of it. After all Michael's put her through the past couple seasons, she had more then enough reason to want to kill him too.
Teyla ordered them into a battle situation where there was heavy casualties. She did not personally walk into a Wraith hive and started slaughtering Wraith as she saw fit.



I find those bolded points interesting, since if what you sees as a dark and extreme action is abnormal for Teyla and her people but completely normal for Sheppard, then by that logic Sheppard doesn't have a similar sense of honor as the Athosians concerning defeated opponents? He is an Air Force officer, after all.
The sense of honor in this case pertains to how Michael was already down for the count with no escape in sight.

No matter how heinous the criminal, according to Earth law (and the honor law I speak of) he's not to be killed in such a situation.

LiLTiff17
November 8th, 2008, 12:07 PM
Actually, he didn't threaten her baby, not even once. He always reassured her the baby wouldn't be harmed (nor would she if she came with him). It was only by the end there that he abandoned them to their fate with the self-destruct.

He's still evil and stuff, but he didn't threaten the baby.

Self-destruct means he was planning to kill the baby (along with everyone else).

jyh
November 8th, 2008, 12:07 PM
I agree w/ others that Teyla made a tough choice. As long as Michael was alive (in Atlantis prison or not), her son wasn't safe, Atlantis wasn't safe, and thousands if not millions of others in the Pegasus galaxy could become collateral damage from Michael's twisted plans. Not to mention the people he had already killed, and all the stuff he had done to Teyla heself. If he hadn't threatened her son, she might have felt differently, but I think that maternal "mother-lion-protecting-her-cubs" instinct took hold. I was waiting for her to say something along the line of "you will never threaten my son again" before she knocked him off, but that would have been a little cliche.

Long story short, Michael constituted a past, present, and future danger to the Pegasus Galaxy, and Teyla decided to finally put an end to the danger.

My only quibble was that I wish they had made a reference to actually finding Michael's body. I'd hate for him to become the Stargate version of MacGyver's Murdoch: he seemingly died about a dozen times, but since they couldn't find (or never bothered to find) his body, it seemed that Murdoch would survive to threaten them another day.

EvenstarSRV
November 8th, 2008, 12:19 PM
The sense of honor in this case pertains to how Michael was already down for the count with no escape in sight.

No matter how heinous the criminal, according to Earth law (and the honor law I speak of) he's not to be killed in such a situation.

I agree, but what I found interesting in your post was that you thought that Sheppard killing an enemy who was down for the count would have been perfectly normal.

If Teyla's sense of honor should have kept her from killing Michael as she did, then wouldn't Sheppard's sense of honor also do the same? It seems that by that logic, it would have been just as dark and extreme for Sheppard to kill Michael as Teyla did, not 'everyday life' for him.

Womble
November 8th, 2008, 12:20 PM
I'm amazing no one's created a thread for this yet. What do you think about Teyla's choice? No, not her choice between giving up Torren and not giving him up. If she'd given him up, I'd totally lost respect for her. Saving herself and her friends or just saving herself and him or just saving him at the cost of the entire galaxy (she knew what would happen from "The Last Man"). If she'd done it, I would've hated her forever, especially since she knows better (which she did).

No, the choice I'm talking about is the fact that at the end of the episode, she chose to forcibly end Michael's life. Now, I'm not saying what she did was wrong (although it probably was by legal standards; not extending a hand to help, not murder, kicking someone's hands off, murder (possibly)), I'm just saying that it was very dark and un-Teyla-y.

I'm glad they finally gave her stuff to do (even if she spent most of the episode just standing/sitting/lying still either unconscious or being terrified. She got to kick ass, she got character development and she got to commit an act of uncharacteristic darkness that I'm sure is going to haunt her for a while (at least I hope so).

I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people, not John, not anyone else on Atlantis, but Teyla herself.

...Man, a bear in most relations – worm and savage otherwise, –
Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise.
Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact
To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low,
To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe.
Mirth obscene diverts his anger – Doubt and Pity oft perplex
Him in dealing with an issue – to the scandal of The Sex!

But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame
Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same,
And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail,
The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast
May not deal in doubt or pity – must not swerve for fact or jest.
These be purely male diversions – not in these her honour dwells.
She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

...She is wedded to convictions – in default of grosser ties;
Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies! –
He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild,
Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

...So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of Abstract Justice – which no woman understands...

(From Rudyard Kipling's "The Female of the Species").

bcharley
November 8th, 2008, 12:22 PM
But the point of this thread is to discuss Teyla's actions, Teyla's mindset, Teyla herself.

Not what would have happened anyway. We're discussing what Teyla did, why she did it and how it was so different from what she normally would've done things.


But you need to discuss this character's actions/mindset in the context of the rest of the show. Teyla doesn't exist in a bubble. It wouldn't have made any sence for Teyla to save Michael's life considering several weeks ago she killed thousands of Wraith who hadn't done anything to her, considering what Michael's personally done to her and her people.

Then when you throw in the fact that John just would have killed him anyway, it really wouldn't make any sence.



Teyla ordered them into a battle situation where there was heavy casualties. She did not personally walk into a Wraith hive and started slaughtering Wraith as she saw fit.

If anything what Teyla did in "The Queen" was more dark then what she did to Michael. She killed thousands of Wraith just for the sake of killing Wraith, with a good chance that she was going to die in the process.

Pandora's_Box
November 8th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Brilliantly put, Womble. Or should I say, Rudyard Kipling.

Killing Michael may have been "dark" and it may have been "cold", but I don't think it was anymore out of character for Teyla than her killing any other Wraith would be.

She grew up a warrior and a leader of her people - their protector in many senses. I don't think she would have hesitated to kill a Wraith then had she been given the opportunity, so I don't see the "controversy" here.

She's killed many Wraith since then in combat situations. This was a combat situation. Over more, she was protecting her son from a man responsible for so much terror in their lives.

It was fitting, Teyla's murder of Michael, and I'm glad she was the one to do it.

Her motivations were simple; protect her family, protect her son, protect her people and the people of the galaxy. Killing Michael accomplished that. End of story.

ablevins425
November 8th, 2008, 01:03 PM
I'm amazing no one's created a thread for this yet. What do you think about Teyla's choice? No, not her choice between giving up Torren and not giving him up. If she'd given him up, I'd totally lost respect for her. Saving herself and her friends or just saving herself and him or just saving him at the cost of the entire galaxy (she knew what would happen from "The Last Man"). If she'd done it, I would've hated her forever, especially since she knows better (which she did).

No, the choice I'm talking about is the fact that at the end of the episode, she chose to forcibly end Michael's life. Now, I'm not saying what she did was wrong (although it probably was by legal standards; not extending a hand to help, not murder, kicking someone's hands off, murder (possibly)), I'm just saying that it was very dark and un-Teyla-y.

I'm glad they finally gave her stuff to do (even if she spent most of the episode just standing/sitting/lying still either unconscious or being terrified. She got to kick ass, she got character development and she got to commit an act of uncharacteristic darkness that I'm sure is going to haunt her for a while (at least I hope so).

I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people, not John, not anyone else on Atlantis, but Teyla herself.

I think a lot of people forget how much the dynamic of the character changed when she became a mother. I think most mothers if in a situation where someone that was hell bent on abducting or harming there child would have done the same thing. So I don't believe that it is so out of character.

Lythisrose
November 8th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Teyla was not raised with, nor necessarily bound by, Earth law or sense of "honor."
When has she ever shown that she is?
In Missing she killed the Bola Kai warrior without hesitation.
She understood Ronon's killing of his ex-commander, and even said that she understood it, but not to tell the Earthers, as they would not.
Her actions in the Queen, against the Wraith Hive again show that she will kill without hesitation, those she feels are her enemy. And Michael has clearly shown that he is. In the alternate timeline he gutted her like a fish to take her child. And as others have said, she's a mother bear.
I think to try to judge her actions or motivations by our standards leads to a real cultural misunderstanding. We need to know what is "honor" in the Athosian or Pegasus traditions. Not what it means in ours.

fumblesmcstupid
November 8th, 2008, 03:38 PM
What Lythisrose said!

MW vs Pg morals are very different!

The 10 commandments are an Earth and Christian based concept!

Religion is a subject that I don't think you can discuss here at GW.

So all I am saying is Thou shalt not kill! Probably don't mean much to the PG people!

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 03:44 PM
I'm amazing no one's created a thread for this yet. What do you think about Teyla's choice? No, not her choice between giving up Torren and not giving him up. If she'd given him up, I'd totally lost respect for her. Saving herself and her friends or just saving herself and him or just saving him at the cost of the entire galaxy (she knew what would happen from "The Last Man"). If she'd done it, I would've hated her forever, especially since she knows better (which she did).

No, the choice I'm talking about is the fact that at the end of the episode, she chose to forcibly end Michael's life. Now, I'm not saying what she did was wrong (although it probably was by legal standards; not extending a hand to help, not murder, kicking someone's hands off, murder (possibly)), I'm just saying that it was very dark and un-Teyla-y.

I'm glad they finally gave her stuff to do (even if she spent most of the episode just standing/sitting/lying still either unconscious or being terrified. She got to kick ass, she got character development and she got to commit an act of uncharacteristic darkness that I'm sure is going to haunt her for a while (at least I hope so).

I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have killed him. But that she chose to kill him herself instead of just waiting for him to fall down on his own (possible) or have John or someone else do it shows how much she hated him in that very instant.

The point is not what we would've done. The point is that this is Teyla we're talking about. I liked that act of darkness coming from her. I just wanted to generate discussion over the fact that the writers chose to have Teyla be the one to end Michael's life, Teyla of all people, not John, not anyone else on Atlantis, but Teyla herself.

He was too dangerous to be kept alive, she knew that and there's a reason I think she did that: her baby. He would have kept coming after him so she did it to protect him. As for John, I think he just let her make the choice of what to do as he just sat there and watched her as she killed Michael. I consider what she did justice and self-defense as she did knock him initaly off the tower in a fight. Also it may have been symbolic as the one person Michael seemed to care about was the one to finish him off.

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 03:48 PM
Makes perfect sense in my opinion. Michael threatened her friends, herself, and her son multiple times. Like some say, "Never threaten a mother's baby because she will kick your ass."

So much anger and pain was building up in Teyla because of how Michael sinisterly treated her son and herself. It seems perfectly logical for her to end his life. She wanted to make sure that he would really be dead and best way of knowing that is doing it yourself. She did that allowing her to have closure and a clean conscious. Clean conscious as in she won't have to fear that he will threaten her child ever again.

I would have hated to have Shepard kill an enemy again. It was worth due to have Teyla kill one of her worst enemies (to herself and her son), show more of her dark side, and even develop her character further. As shown, we know Teyla isn't an angel and is a human who does have a dark side and will use it if her life or her son's is in danger.

The writers were right in having her kill of Michael. No one else could measure up to the dramatic effect she had when she did so.

True. The only one who may have deserved to do it more was the clone of Beckett for all Michael put him through.

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Actually, he didn't threaten her baby, not even once. He always reassured her the baby wouldn't be harmed (nor would she if she came with him). It was only by the end there that he abandoned them to their fate with the self-destruct.

He's still evil and stuff, but he didn't threaten the baby.

Only because he needed him. Otherwise he would have had aboslutly no problem with it. He murdered a young woman to get Beckett to help him and threatened to keep doing it. He's insane and a mass murderer.

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Something else to consider is that eairler in the episode Sheppard gave a general order that Michael would recieve "no quarter". Meaning, Michael was to be killed on the spot, even if he surrendered. So Teyla didn't really have a choice to make, she was simply following orders.


To give you an idea of how unusual such an order is, it'd actually be a war crime if Sheppard was to give a "no quarter" order in a war here on earth. Though in the case of Michael, I'd say it was deserved.

Yeah: no one wanted him to come back ever again as they're as sick of him as I am.

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 03:57 PM
But when someone is hanging on a ledge like that, helpless? To forcefully kick their hands off? I just don't see it as something she'd normally do.

She did it in this instance, for good reason. But it was still a bit extreme, because she's Teyla.

The point of discussion I was trying to raise is not the fact that she did it at all, but that she did it in that situation. Teyla forcefully ended the life of an already defeated enemy when she (IMO) would usually have saved their life and captured them in instances like that.

Michael had nowhere else to run. Even if he made out of that tower, short of defeating all of Atlantis, he was stuck on Atlantis, now a prisoner. Since he had no need to feed, they could lock him up permanently.

Yes, dangerous, yes, he's evil (and clearly nuts). But this is Teyla. This action for her was dark and extreme. For John, it would've been every day life. For Teyla, for Teyla, it was an interesting and powerful action, as demonstrated by John's reaction.

Some people seem to have missed that this is the issue I was trying to raise (not you, Pic), the fact that it was Teyla who did what she did in this very situation, not the fact that someone killed someone to protect their family.

If you stop to think about this, it was pretty dark and extreme, period. And I doubt Teyla's people make it a habit out of outright killing their opponents in situations like that.

Her people have a sense of "honor", after all.

He was repeatedly after her child, he kidnapped her and her people and murdered at least some of them, he wanted to destroy her city and kill all of her friends, he wanted to take over the galaxy. He was just too much of a threat to keep alive. There was no other way for it to end. Yes, John could have finished him off himself but I think he let Teyla do it as he just sat there looking at her as she made the choice to kill Michael. She has somewhat of a dark side: she killed a defensless Bolo Kai, she purposly caused as many Wraith deaths as possible in The Queen and now she's killed Michael. I probably would have done the same thing given the chance and I hate violence!!!!!!

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 04:01 PM
I agree w/ others that Teyla made a tough choice. As long as Michael was alive (in Atlantis prison or not), her son wasn't safe, Atlantis wasn't safe, and thousands if not millions of others in the Pegasus galaxy could become collateral damage from Michael's twisted plans. Not to mention the people he had already killed, and all the stuff he had done to Teyla heself. If he hadn't threatened her son, she might have felt differently, but I think that maternal "mother-lion-protecting-her-cubs" instinct took hold. I was waiting for her to say something along the line of "you will never threaten my son again" before she knocked him off, but that would have been a little cliche.

Long story short, Michael constituted a past, present, and future danger to the Pegasus Galaxy, and Teyla decided to finally put an end to the danger.

My only quibble was that I wish they had made a reference to actually finding Michael's body. I'd hate for him to become the Stargate version of MacGyver's Murdoch: he seemingly died about a dozen times, but since they couldn't find (or never bothered to find) his body, it seemed that Murdoch would survive to threaten them another day.

Not sure there was a body to find. He was probably pancaked by that fall if he hit the ground and if he hit the water (which is a good possiblity) they wouldn't have been able to retrive it.

WarGrowlmon18
November 8th, 2008, 04:09 PM
Teyla was not raised with, nor necessarily bound by, Earth law or sense of "honor."
When has she ever shown that she is?
In Missing she killed the Bola Kai warrior without hesitation.
She understood Ronon's killing of his ex-commander, and even said that she understood it, but not to tell the Earthers, as they would not.
Her actions in the Queen, against the Wraith Hive again show that she will kill without hesitation, those she feels are her enemy. And Michael has clearly shown that he is. In the alternate timeline he gutted her like a fish to take her child. And as others have said, she's a mother bear.
I think to try to judge her actions or motivations by our standards leads to a real cultural misunderstanding. We need to know what is "honor" in the Athosian or Pegasus traditions. Not what it means in ours.

I agree. Her strategy in The Queen was surprising, even to Todd, but they are at war with the Wraith and technicly we are (or were as he's now dead) at war with Michael. All she was doing was eliminating as many enemies as possible in The Queen and killing what I think was once described as the single most dangerous individual they ever encountered.

FallenAngelII
November 9th, 2008, 04:00 AM
But you need to discuss this character's actions/mindset in the context of the rest of the show. Teyla doesn't exist in a bubble. It wouldn't have made any sence for Teyla to save Michael's life considering several weeks ago she killed thousands of Wraith who hadn't done anything to her, considering what Michael's personally done to her and her people.
It's not the same thing. Someone brought up that John had already decided Michael has to die as if it mattered. It doesn't.

The fact that Teyla has already comitted an act of darkness does matter. I never said it didn't.


Then when you throw in the fact that John just would have killed him anyway, it really wouldn't make any sence.
From a script standpoint. Not from a logical and personal standpoint. Teyla did not know what John had decided. She is not psychic. Thus, this was all by her own choice.

We're not discussing what John decided or what the PTB decided. We're discussing what Teyla did, Teyla's mindset, Teyla's past history, Teyla's person.


If anything what Teyla did in "The Queen" was more dark then what she did to Michael. She killed thousands of Wraith just for the sake of killing Wraith, with a good chance that she was going to die in the process.
Since when do hives have thousands of darts? If they did, Atlantis wouldn't stand a chance.

That was a malicious act, yes. But she did not take those lives personally. She just put them on the line. Dark, yes. I still think this one is darker.

In "The Queen", she used soldiers in a way that ensured their death. In "The Prodigal", she killed a man who bad no way of escaping, who was trapped, who was now unarmed and helpless.

She didn't even wait for him to fall, she forcibly kicked his hands off the ledge he was hanging on. It's not just that she didn't help him, that her kicking him off the ledge was enough. She then personally saw to it that he fell.


I agree. Her strategy in The Queen was surprising, even to Todd, but they are at war with the Wraith and technicly we are (or were as he's now dead) at war with Michael. All she was doing was eliminating as many enemies as possible in The Queen and killing what I think was once described as the single most dangerous individual they ever encountered.
By Earth law, that was pretty much murder there in "The Prodigal".

bcharley
November 9th, 2008, 09:23 AM
It's not the same thing. Someone brought up that John had already decided Michael has to die as if it mattered. It doesn't.

The fact that Teyla has already comitted an act of darkness does matter. I never said it didn't.

You're right, it's not the same thing. What Teyla did in The Queen was more dark then what she did to Michael. It goes to show that she isn't the fairy princess that you seem to think she is.

Teyla is a dark character, it's normal for her to kill her enemies.




From a script standpoint. Not from a logical and personal standpoint. Teyla did not know what John had decided. She is not psychic. Thus, this was all by her own choice.

We're not discussing what John decided or what the PTB decided. We're discussing what Teyla did, Teyla's mindset, Teyla's past history, Teyla's person.

But you need to consider Teyla's actions from the standpoint of the script since that's the only context that the character exists. The writers chose for Teyla to be up on the ledge. They could have had John finish off Michael but they wanted Teyla to be standing over Michael at the end. Then the question becomes, what does she do now that she's there? Here's what you'd want that scene to look like:

Teyla reaches down and saves Michael. John walks over and pushes him off the tower and asks Teyla, "You've never had a problem with killing your enemies befor, just several weeks ago you killed thousands of Wraith. Why didn't you kill Michael?"

Now, what on earth would 'Teyla's person' say? "Michael was too evil for me to kill." Come on, Teyla did the only logical thing her character would have done in that situation. She killed her enemy, just like she's done throughout the show.

Can you give any examples when Teyla hasn't killed her enemies?




Since when do hives have thousands of darts? If they did, Atlantis wouldn't stand a chance.

I didn't say thousands of darts. I said thousands of Wraith. Wouldn't it be safe to say that there are thousands of Wraith on each Hive Ship?



By Earth law, that was pretty much murder there in "The Prodigal".

No it wasn't, I'm not sure what country you're from but in Canada there's no law against killing Wraith-hybrids.

Rac80
November 9th, 2008, 12:53 PM
I don't think she had a choice...I think as long as Michael lives her kid will never be safe...I liked seeing another side of Teyla...A darker side of her.....She would do anything to protect her child, even kill!
Yep Linda ITA.


I don't see it as being "dark" per se. That was pure mama bear, right there. He's obsessed with kidnapping her son and nearly blew up everyone she knows in an attempt to do so. If I were her, I'd do the same damn thing--"Let's not take any chances. I'm just gonna squish you."
as any good mother would!

Actually, he didn't threaten her baby, not even once. He always reassured her the baby wouldn't be harmed (nor would she if she came with him). It was only by the end there that he abandoned them to their fate with the self-destruct.

He's still evil and stuff, but he didn't threaten the baby.
Sorry, what you consider a threat and what a mother considers a threat is two different things. As a mother myself, any attempt to remove my young child from my arms (or from my life) is a threat and any good mother knows enough NOT to trust a psychopath! and yep....you will somehow trust this killer with your most precious child???? I don't think so!!!!!



By Earth law, that was pretty much murder there in "The Prodigal".

Actually since michael had threatened her and her child (he wanted to kidnap the child at a minimum) and those around her it was "justifiable homicide" (law student here ;)) ---big difference between that and murder. Recently in indy a guy shot and killed a naked intruder he found in his home... turns out the man was a sex offender. Indy is a "shoot first" state. the homeowner was not charged. ;)

I thought it was very in character to have Teyla kick his hands off. She knew he was brilliant, had incredible self-healing abilities, and an army of drones he controlled telepathically (she saw how he controlled clone!carson)-- by removing Michael's life , she knew she was protecting the Pegasus galaxy and everyone she cares about. It was another indication of her fitness as a leader. She made the tough decision and followed through. Also - who knows how he tortured her when she was pregnant and he had her captured..... that also probably plays into her actions. I consider her actions just.

Pic
November 9th, 2008, 01:51 PM
No it wasn't, I'm not sure what country you're from but in Canada there's no law against killing Wraith-hybrids.

:lol:


I can see where FallenAngel is coming from, but I still feel Teyla's actions were in keeping with her character and not just as a mother, but for all the other things folks have pointed out. Keep in mind that everyone is going to bring their own take-on-life to any character analysis ~ it's as natural as fandom. ;)

The look on her face showed that she found the situation distasteful, but obviously she didn't hesitate for long.

What I want to know is what is it that she found distasteful? The thought of having to make the choice to end Michael's life? Or was it general disgust of Michael? Memories of his plans for her son? What he'd done to her people?

FallenAngelII
November 10th, 2008, 02:41 AM
You're right, it's not the same thing. What Teyla did in The Queen was more dark then what she did to Michael. It goes to show that she isn't the fairy princess that you seem to think she is.
I disgaree. She didn't personally and forcefully kill those Wraith. She just ordered them into a suicide mission.


Teyla is a dark character, it's normal for her to kill her enemies.
It's not a part of her character at all. It's an unsual anomally that almost never manifests itself. If it's a part of her character, then it's one of those really deep-seated and parts that almost never gets tapped into.

Teyla is not a dark character. She not the mother of all that is good, but dark? Far from it.


But you need to consider Teyla's actions from the standpoint of the script since that's the only context that the character exists. The writers chose for Teyla to be up on the ledge. They could have had John finish off Michael but they wanted Teyla to be standing over Michael at the end. Then the question becomes, what does she do now that she's there? Here's what you'd want that scene to look like:
Yes, that is all good and all. But what does any of that have with what John decided?! You just changed your argument entirely. Earlier, you were arguing that it was perfectly logical for Teyla to kill Michael because John had decreed it, as if it meant anything. That according to the script, it now all made sense.

This is another argument entirely.


Teyla reaches down and saves Michael. John walks over and pushes him off the tower and asks Teyla, "You've never had a problem with killing your enemies befor, just several weeks ago you killed thousands of Wraith. Why didn't you kill Michael?"
I'd appreciate it if you didn't make stuff up. I never said I wanted the scene to look like that. I merely put forth alternate scenarios since some people were under the impression that the scenario that ultimately took place was the only possible scenario.

We don't even know if Teyla told John about it. And how convenient of you to leave out the scenario I've suggested several times now:
Leave Michael there to fall to his death on his own.

At the very least once he's only got one hand on the... thingie. But she kicked both hands off. You can strawman my arguments as much you want or distort the script as much as you want, but that is not common behavior for Teyla.


Now, what on earth would 'Teyla's person' say? "Michael was too evil for me to kill." Come on, Teyla did the only logical thing her character would have done in that situation. She killed her enemy, just like she's done throughout the show.
She usually doesn't kill helpless people with no weapons to employ and no escape in sight. Please tell me when she last did that.


Can you give any examples when Teyla hasn't killed her enemies?
Can you please give an example of a situation just like this before?


I didn't say thousands of darts. I said thousands of Wraith. Wouldn't it be safe to say that there are thousands of Wraith on each Hive Ship?
She didn't kill them, though. She tried to. Important distinction.


No it wasn't, I'm not sure what country you're from but in Canada there's no law against killing Wraith-hybrids.
I'd appreciate it if you bothered to read the my posts in their entirety. It's not about who she killed, it's about how she killed.

It was no longer self-defense.


Sorry, what you consider a threat and what a mother considers a threat is two different things. As a mother myself, any attempt to remove my young child from my arms (or from my life) is a threat and any good mother knows enough NOT to trust a psychopath! and yep....you will somehow trust this killer with your most precious child???? I don't think so!!!!!
Be that as it may, Michael never once threatened the child, the very words used. He said he wanted to remove him from Teyla's care (should Teyla elect not to come with them) and additionally promised that no harm would befall the child.

Now it might have sounded like a threat in Teyla's mind and, yes, Michael is a psychopath and all that. But what Michael actually did was not to threaten the child.


Actually since michael had threatened her and her child (he wanted to kidnap the child at a minimum) and those around her it was "justifiable homicide" (law student here ;)) ---big difference between that and murder. Recently in indy a guy shot and killed a naked intruder he found in his home... turns out the man was a sex offender. Indy is a "shoot first" state. the homeowner was not charged. ;)
No, it was not justifiable homicide. Because you cannot kill someone for threatening to do something (former almost-law student here, it's complicated).

And while it may have been justifiable homicide when Michael was actually in control of Atlantis and preparing to leave, it wasn't anymore. Michael now had no minions (all dead or incapacitated), no ship, no control of Atlantis, no control of the gate, no escape.

Michael had nowhere to go. He couldn't possibly do anything to Torren as he was currently being guarded by a gate technician with years of kick boxing under her belt and several others, plus, the city was now full of military personnel homing in on their position. And, as I just established, it was no longer justifiable homicide since he was no longer a threat.

No, having been a threat before does not constitute justifiable homicide.

Michael no longer posed a threat to her and her baby. Yes, he did pose a threat to them, but once that threat ceased, it's no longer justifiable homicide.

Michael was now helpless, hanging on a ledge. When Michael was fighting John, it was "in defense of others". Then Michael was thrown onto the ledge-thingie. Not saving him was not a crime (a crime in some countries/states, I believe) in itself, but forcibly severing his grip was (at this point).

I also don't think it's justifiable homicide to kill someone for threatening to kidnap your child unless they threaten them or you with bodily harm first.


I thought it was very in character to have Teyla kick his hands off. She knew he was brilliant, had incredible self-healing abilities, and an army of drones he controlled telepathically (she saw how he controlled clone!carson)-- by removing Michael's life , she knew she was protecting the Pegasus galaxy and everyone she cares about. It was another indication of her fitness as a leader. She made the tough decision and followed through. Also - who knows how he tortured her when she was pregnant and he had her captured..... that also probably plays into her actions. I consider her actions just.
He tortured her? When? Did I miss entire episodes where she was tortured?

Also, I never said she shouldn't have killed him. I was just surprised she did it so forcibly, instead of waiting for him to fall on his own (or even giving him a chance to fall on his own). She just went and killed him right off.

Nath
November 10th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Hi everyone. It was a good idea to open this thread. I have to admit, the fight scene in the end was my favorite.
I think it's very clever to make Teyla the one to end Michael's life. We already know Ronon would kill him without hesitation, and John ordered his soldiers to do so.

Teyla has a special link with Michael, and that's why it makes it difficult for her, and why she has a short moment of hesitation. But when you think about it, She disapprouved the project at first. And Michael is first of all a Wraith, who slaughtered thoursands of people throughout the galaxy. And he is responsible for the disappearence of her people, he did aweful experimentations on the Athosians, and wanted her baby for his own experiments. I think she reacted as expected in this situation.

The scene was dark, she has shown no compassion. I like this side of Teyla. But it's not out of character. As a leader, she has to be strong and make hard decisions. In "Missing" we saw this side of her, she killed to survive.

I also think it's great to end Michael's ark where it has begun, here in Atlantis.

EvenstarSRV
November 10th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Be that as it may, Michael never once threatened the child, the very words used. He said he wanted to remove him from Teyla's care (should Teyla elect not to come with them) and additionally promised that no harm would befall the child.

Now it might have sounded like a threat in Teyla's mind and, yes, Michael is a psychopath and all that. But what Michael actually did was not to threaten the child.

From GW's transcript of The Prodigal:


MICHAEL (into the city's comms): Time is short, Teyla. I don't understand – I would think the choice is an easy one. If nothing else, consider your child. By remaining in hiding, you are sentencing him to die.

My interpretation of this line from Michael was "You and your child come with me or you will all die."

IMO, even though he promised not to hurt him earlier, by turning on the self-destruct Michael was threatening the life of Teyla's child (as well as the lives of everyone else on Atlantis).

I would also personally consider his desire to kidnap Torren to at least be a threatening gesture towards the child's safety/happiness, if not his life, regardless of Michael's 'reassurances'.

FallenAngelII
November 10th, 2008, 04:43 PM
I would also personally consider his desire to kidnap Torren to at least be a threatening gesture towards the child's safety/happiness, if not his life, regardless of Michael's 'reassurances'.
Never directly threatened Torren's life. It would be an "unfortunate consequence" (sounds like something Michael would say) of Michael's vengeance on the expedition.

Of course, it can be interpreted as a threat, but he never directly threatened him, which was what I was contesting.

EvenstarSRV
November 10th, 2008, 06:49 PM
Never directly threatened Torren's life. It would be an "unfortunate consequence" (sounds like something Michael would say) of Michael's vengeance on the expedition.

Of course, it can be interpreted as a threat, but he never directly threatened him, which was what I was contesting.

I guess I just don't see that many different ways you can interpret an action like setting the city's self-destruct on a countdown, it seems like a pretty direct threat to the lives of everyone on Atlantis, including Torren's.

Is a threat like the self-destruct countdown really much different from perhaps a more 'direct' threat of Michael holding a gun to Torren's head and giving Teyla a countdown before pulling the trigger?

IMO, both threats are essentially the same, real threats to Torren's life with Michael's hand on the 'trigger' in both scenarios.

Beyond what we saw in the episode, what else would Michael have had to do that would constitute a more 'direct' threat to Torren's life?

Angela V
March 5th, 2009, 04:19 PM
As a mother of two young children, if I went through all I did concerning Michael you bet your ass I'd have killed the heartless scumbag. He'd killed countless people, experimented on people, and seriously thinks Teyla would even believe him when he says he won't hurt her child? Considering what he wanted her child for he was clearly lying. And then decide because he can't get what he wants (Teyla and child or just child) he'd just blow everyone up. Because well you know he's misunderstood and hurting. Please. He had a choice where he could've just walked away from humans and Wraith and find a nice quiet corner of the galaxy to spend the rest of his life doing what ever mundane thing he could think of. Instead he chose to kill and experiment on people. Then tried to justify his actions by blaming everyone else.

What Teyla did was protect her family, including the Altantis crew who are part of her family now. She also protected the rest of the galaxy from a mad man.

BluBarbi98
May 10th, 2009, 03:21 AM
I also don't think that it's Teyla's dark side but just her protecting her child. We know that if Michael had lived (is he really dead this time?) he would have com Tee back again and again to capture her son. However, I am also disappointed that they won't/don't address the issue that Michael is who he is, in part because of Atlantis. I'm surprised that when he mentioned that Teyla didn't acknowledge it. Of all the characters I would think that she would be the one to make that concession. If the scene had been written differently it could have been a more powerful moment between them. Anyway, I am pleased that it was Teyla who killed him and not someone else.