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    "Guilty or Innocent?"

    "Innocent."

    "Feed him to the Sharkticons!"

    Seriously though: Do you think that the Atlantis Expedition was truly innocent or guilty of the crimes against he Galaxy. I think this episode was a very important one and I'm glad they brought it up. Many people have died indirectly as a result of the Atlantis contingent's encounter with the Wraith. And this wasn't something that should be glossed over. I thought it was smart to raise the issue but it didn't seem adequately covered. In fact I could have done without the clips.

    Personally I'm inclined to think that they clearly aren't guilty except or one charge. The Replicators.

    The issue here is that the writers have never seemed to make it clear what the Replicators are.

    Yes they are machines, but they are sentient machines - capable of free will and their own choices. But they are also a Hive Mind but they are all directed by their base-code. Which they were capable of altering themselves by the end of though? Even if I were to concede that they were not guilty, why did the reasonable judge do so? The last thing I remember him saying on the subject was the analogy to the detonator. Now that's a faulty one, because a detonator can't choose to attack targets and not others but I don't remember them ever going back over that. And frankly I can't fault the emotional judge for being angry at them, but even as a fan who has the benefit of perspective of watching the entire show (something the characters don't have), I can't tell if the replicators themselves are at fault or if they weren't. Because their base-code's influence compared to their free will was never fully explored. Could they have simply turned it back off themselves? Did they want to? If they were content to fight the Wraith why didn't they turn it back on when it was turned off by the Wraith?

    Sheppard was not doing the greatest job at defending himself alone, and Woolsey could have done better too I think. In fact one of their strongest defenses that could have been brought up was that they have two Pegasus natives with them who supported their actions. The Athosians suffered at the hands of Michael and the Wraith and Satedans were exterminate BEFORE Atlantis arrived. That would have been a effective defense in my mind (not to mention it would have given Ronon and Teyla something to do). Because the Wraith were still a significant presence in the Galaxy before being awakened. Enough that the Hoffans were preparing the drug for interplanetary dissemination, the Genii were planning a nuclear strike and Sateda was completely annihilated. Planets were being wiped out even before the Taur'i arrived, so if the crime is that more are being wiped out, then you could make the case that as a result of the Wraith being weakened like never before, more lives will be saved by defeating them now. Because whether the Wraith awakened now or later, millions of people will die it was only a question of when.

    Its another of those interesting Stargate Atlantis issues where all options are morally wrong, but they chose one anyway. But either way, I don't think they expounded really fully the issue enough.

    What do you vote?

    You could even make a poll possibly.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

    #2
    I would say they are definitely guilty. Maybe not murder or genocide, but at least man slaughter x 2,000,000.

    Comment


      #3
      Guilty.

      :airlock:

      Oops. That is BSG.
      "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

      "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

      "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

      Comment


        #4
        Guilty. Of manslaughter and significant lack of foresight.
        With the exception of the "waking the Wraith" charge. There was no way they could have known that would happen.
        I reject your reality and substitute my own.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by TheoryCraft View Post
          Guilty. Of manslaughter and significant lack of foresight.
          With the exception of the "waking the Wraith" charge. There was no way they could have known that would happen.
          there was also no way they could of known that the Asurans would start destroying human worlds.
          A word of advice... there are creatures that live between this dimension and the next, fiendish creatures that feast on the suffering of an entire world to satiate their eternal hunger. Support the Gateworld Cantina or suffer the fate of all who fall into the clutches of the 'Eladrith Ynneas'

          Comment


            #6
            There was no way they could have predicted what Michael would do, with cloning Beckett and spreading that drug around.

            It's not their fault that the guy just doesn't stay put when they want to shoot him.

            But they are at fault for creating him.

            In Loving Memory of Wraithlord.

            I wish I got to know you better.

            Comment


              #7
              The expedition are not guilty of man-slaughter. They have no control over the actions of the others. They are guilty of inadvertently setting about chains of events that lead to the killing of millions, but they did not do it themselves. They also had no idea it would happen.

              And, again, most importantly: It was done by others.

              It not the same as someone setting off a detonator and walking away. It's more like training someone in martial arts and then leaving them to themselves. If they use that martial arts for evil, it's their crime, not yours (referencing the Asurans here).

              With the Wraith, it was a case of getting attacked by enemies (WTF @ "scouting mission", scouting mission my tuchas! It was a culling!), defending yourself against said enemies and pissing them off. And the episode was a bit off on that (because the Council was obviously biased). John killed the Keeper (since when was she ever a Queen?), which lead to her waking everyone else up and informing them of the new feeding grounds... you really think she wouldn't have otherwise?

              I mean, why would she randomly wake everyone up just for fun just because she got killed off? She did it to have the Wraith mobilize and attack Atlantis for the location of Earth.

              With Michael, that's more gray. The expedition conducted experiments on a sentient being against their will. But it's ultimately Michael who is responsible for his actions afterward.

              With the Asurans, the expedition reprogrammed them so that they could go after the Wraith... which they did. It's not the expedition's fault that the Asurans thought it best to go after the Wraiths' food supply.

              The expedition is not psychic, everything they did was with the best of the intentions. Some of their actions are iffy, most others "noble". They can only be blamed for the end results if their actions directly result in the harming of innocents.

              Tell me, are the masterminds of the atom bomb responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands?



              Comment


                #8
                Manslaughter can be defined as criminal negligence resulting in a death or deaths, I think this is a perfect definition of what happened. The Asurans are machines after all, the consciousness is no more than programming, and they did what they did because of the changes McKay made, intentional or not.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Guilty of negligent crimes against humanity.
                  The court should complell the expedition to make up for it in some way rather than punishing individuals though.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                    Tell me, are the masterminds of the atom bomb responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands?
                    Only if they knew it would be used that way. Did they?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      The expedition is guilty of having extremely poor judgment and a lack of ethics that others in the galaxy have paid the price for. Had Woosly (or Jack) been there from the start things would have turned out different.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I thought this episode would been better if it was a two partner. They seemed gloss over a lot of the details.

                        Asurans base code would require the Asurans to be efficient the fastest and most efficient way to eleminate the Wraith is the Elimination of their food supply. So they are guilty of negligence.

                        As for micheal and Hoffman they did the best they could to stop. But they failed to contain their experiments. I must their for find them guilty of manslaughter

                        Waking the wraith. Not Guilty


                        Them being stupid most of the time, I must fine them guilty.
                        Guilty of Manslaughter, I sentence them to fifty years of hard labor.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                          Tell me, are the masterminds of the atom bomb responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands?
                          Yes, they are. However, I think a more suitable reference would be the scientists who first split the atom. No, they cannot be held responsible for the actions of those whose work lead to death and destruction.

                          The opinions here calling negligence are off base.

                          The expedition was attacked by the Wraith. Soldiers were captured and tortured. The military had every right to engage the Wraith to rescue their comrades. The awakening was coincidental. They are innocent.

                          The Asurans were created with a code instructing them to attack the Wraith. It's been stated that they were cast aside because they turned on the Ancients, not because they were attacking the Wraith by killing humans. All McKay did was activate the code. He had no way of knowing the particulars of the code and how the replicators would evolve to manipulate that code. Again, the expedition is innocent.

                          Michael is a sentient being. While the expedition violated his "human rights" by experimenting on him, he made the decision to cause mayhem throughout the galaxy. Nothing the expedition did to him made him do anything outside of his will once he escaped. The expedition cannot be held responsible for his actions.

                          It was brought up that the expedition acted unilaterally in affairs that affected the whole galaxy. There really isn't a defense for this. It's simple arrogance.

                          McKay should have been personally brought up on charges for destroying a solar system.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm fairly certain that there was no-one else in that solar system. Otherwise they would have acknowledged the horrifying fact that McKay bumbled his way to genocide.
                            "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

                            *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

                            "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

                            "Elizabeth..."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Guilty. I've given my arguments why over the past year, no use repeating them now. This episode could have really delivered a punch, but...it didn't.

                              Shame, that.

                              das
                              sigpic

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