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FallenAngelII
October 25th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Listen carefully, for I will only say this once:
There was absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this episode.

Yes, yes, I know that it seems almost impossible, what with the string of flawed (in minor or major ways) the writers have churned out over the past, oh, 3 years or so with even the best of episodes containing at least one element that's either a plot hole or randomly bad/shark-jumpy/out of character/pure BS most of the time.

OK, so as a clip show, a large portion of the episode was just reused footage. But there was nothing really wrong with the new footage or the storyline of the episode! For once, there's nothing inherently wrong!

I mean, subjectively, I could point out things I personally didn't like about the episode, but artistically and objectively, there's nothing that's actually "wrong" about the episode.

I'm having problems comprehending this. So, did anyone find anything that was by nature bad (bad writing, etc.) about the episode? I mean, that biased judge was so obviously biased and stupid ("My family died! Somehow has to pay!" - never mind the fact that all of the people who killed her family were long dead), but her inclusion and writing wasn't flawed by nature.

gopher65
October 25th, 2008, 12:27 PM
I agree. I didn't like the episode, but I didn't notice any large plot holes or plot inconsistencies like I almost always do while watching Stargate episodes. Every time I saw one coming up, Wolsey would head it off (ie, subspace locater, tracking them through the DHD, how he'd win the trial, etc).

All in all I was impressed with the technical side of the writing (which is very, very rare with this show, even in my favourite episodes), even though creatively this ep was pretty bad.

JackHarkness_Hot
October 25th, 2008, 12:37 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it was a clip show, nothing more. There was no plotholes as such, none that I've seen so far yet. I haven't seen anyone complain that there's anything wrong with it, so what's going on here?

FallenAngelII
October 25th, 2008, 12:38 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it was a clip show, nothing more. There was no plotholes as such, none that I've seen so far yet. I haven't seen anyone complain that there's anything wrong with it, so what's going on here?
Maybe you should re-read the original post where I said the exact same thing?

JadedWraith
October 25th, 2008, 12:42 PM
I mean, that biased judge was so obviously biased and [B]stupid ("My family died! Somehow has to pay!" - never mind the fact that all of the people who killed her family were long dead), but her inclusion and writing wasn't flawed by nature.

I think you just pointed out what was wrong with the episode: no one so clearly involved should be in the jury. The fact that she was biased did not make her necessarily stupid. She pointed out correctly that the Atlanteans took risks and made decisions which affected the whole of Pegasus without consulting anyone. She would make an excellent witness for the prosecution. That way and without the Genii scheme angle, it would be a better episode. What better way to make a clipper episode than to weight past decisions and their consequences to the future?
None of that was ultimately achieved in the end. Let’s sweep that under the rug, who cares about a bunch of unadvanced villagers?

A lot of soul searching is boring, a little bit is healthy.

Lahela
October 25th, 2008, 12:43 PM
I would have preferred if the flashbacks were shorter, maybe just a few frames with a real time voiceover, so Teyla and/or Ronon could have had a chance to speak to the tribunal as PG natives, but other than that... nope, nothing inherently wrong with it.

Edit:


I think you just pointed out what was wrong with the episode: no one so clearly involved should be in the jury. The fact that she was biased did not make her necessarily stupid. She pointed out correctly that the Atlanteans took risks and made decisions which affected the whole of Pegasus without consulting anyone. She would make an excellent witness for the prosecution.

Personally, I think they addressed that with Woolsey's comment. It was clear from the get-go that it was a kangaroo court and there was no attempt to make it seem anything else.

JackHarkness_Hot
October 25th, 2008, 12:47 PM
Maybe you should re-read the original post where I said the exact same thing?

LOL, just making sure.

FallenAngelII
October 25th, 2008, 12:49 PM
I think you just pointed out what was wrong with the episode: no one so clearly involved should be in the jury. The fact that she was biased did not make her necessarily stupid. She pointed out correctly that the Atlanteans took risks and made decisions which affected the whole of Pegasus without consulting anyone. She would make an excellent witness for the prosecution. That way and without the Genii scheme angle, it would be a better episode. What better way to make a clipper episode than to weight past decisions and their consequences to the future?
None of that was ultimately achieved in the end. Let’s sweep that under the rug, who cares about a bunch of unadvanced villagers?
This was addressed in the episode. It was a kangaroo court procedure. The woman was obviously biased and would've voted against our guys no matter what, another judge was in the Genii's pocket. There was only one judge interested in truly seeing justice served.

JadedWraith
October 25th, 2008, 12:56 PM
This was addressed in the episode. It was a kangaroo court procedure. The woman was obviously biased and would've voted against our guys no matter what, another judge was in the Genii's pocket. There was only one judge interested in truly seeing justice served.

The kangaroo court part, yes. The validity of the accusations was not addressed, just superficially mentioned. I just stated it would have a better dynamic if there was a unbiased set of people on the jury. I would like Atlantis to have a fair chance to assess and defend their past choices.

Lahela
October 25th, 2008, 01:01 PM
The kangaroo court part, yes. The validity of the accusations was not addressed, just superficially mentioned. I just stated it would have a better dynamic if there was a unbiased set of people on the jury. I would like Atlantis to have a fair chance to assess and defend their past choices.

But then they might actually be found guilty ;)

JadedWraith
October 25th, 2008, 01:14 PM
But then they might actually be found guilty ;)

Yeah, that might happen. But I would like them to show the same degree of accountability Teal'c showed in the Cor'ai. That's what made me love the big guy. In war sometimes you have to take decisions that are not so ethical, in order to avoid some worse consequences. You should not be proud of them or be dismissive of collateral effects. From a character development point of view, it would be more interesting.

Lahela
October 25th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Yeah, that might happen. But I would like them to show the same degree of accountability Teal'c showed in the Cor'ai. That's what made me love the big guy. In war sometimes you have to take decisions that are not so ethical, in order to avoid some worse consequences. You should not be proud of them or be dismissive of collateral effects. From a character development point of view, it would be more interesting.

ITA JW! Cor'ai was an incredible ep for Teal'c because he didn't deny his actions, just explained his motivations. I suppose the problem with this ep was that there were so many charges they couldn't realistically deal with all of them to that extent because of time constraints so they went with a more gloss-over approach.

JeffKnight
October 25th, 2008, 01:46 PM
Like with Cor-Ai, this episode did give Atlantis a chance to explain/rationalize their actions. John and Woolsey were doing this until Woolsey figured out the deck was stacked, then they took actions to make sure that we live to fight another day.

Yes, one day we will have to be held accountable, just as we will for our actions in the MW, but the bottom line is that overall we have been a major positive force in both galaxies, and while we've made mistakes, we do try and fix them. When we do finally put ourselves before the court of public opinion in each galaxy, it will be before a fair court, not a witch hunt like this was.

elbo
October 25th, 2008, 01:50 PM
There were few things obviously wrong with the plot. Usually even the tribal elders shouldn't be that stupid when they already have 2-3 higly advanced enemies like the Wraith or Michael to make an enemy of Atlantis as well. It's actually seem more logical to invite them to be part of the coalition, because is obvious at this point who need who in this equation. So there is the timing, you don't make war tribunals until the war is actually resolved.

Then there are the people accused. If any guilt can be traced to Atlantis, I don't see what Sheppard's team part is in all this. Michael and all other stuff goes in the responsability of Atlantis leadership, who initiated and autorisated all the plans and experiments. You cannot accomplish any kind of justice by accusing the wrong individual and forcing him to take a general blame. As you could see there was no personal charge against Sheppard the whole trial and they only use charges by associations. The whole request like Shep's team to represent is curious; requesting the leader of the expetition or wanting him in this inquisition would have made far more sense.

The whole point of 'judging someone who is not part of your laws' is not very logical. In SG, the space is free so no tresspasers, and there is no legal Pegasus code acording to which you can establish someone guilt or judge some negative effect of its actions. So:

1. Waking the Wraith. Sheppard didn't woke any Wraith. The red hair Queen did, when she was killed by Sheppard in self defence. It is ridiculous to not be allowed to kill a Wraith queen and to be considered responsable for it. Not to mention that the queen would have woke the Wraith anyway after she learned the new data from Summer. Is not like the Wraith would have sent darts and scout ships to take out Earth. Our simple presence on Athos is the element that in fact leaded to earliy awakening of the Wraith. So you cannot punish somewhere for simply being in a place. Otherwise, i could as easily say that humans in Pegasus are the one respomsable for the existence of the Wraith who would have been long dead without any food source. So if you accuse someone, you have to establish the intent and the guilt to be directly related to one of his actions.

2. The Michael experiment and activating the replicators' attack code. What experiments and strategies we use against the Wraith is our bussinis. Everyone fights in their own way. Both Michael and the Asurans turned out against humans because of their own free will. Same with the Hoffans using the the 'antidote'. Is ridiculous to accuse somebody for a third party actions made in complete self-awarness and free will. The trials and inquisitions are always personal, othewise you will end by accusing one's entire family and friends, being ressponsable for his existtence, education, etc.

So not a very good and original episode, after another 2 SG1 and one SGA similar plots.

Laura Dove
October 25th, 2008, 02:37 PM
I just noticed two minor points:

Couldn't Woolsey use Ronon's old runner tracking device? They were able to reactivate it in "Sateda".
Why didn't they mention that the Hoffan drug Michael spread had initially been created by, well, the Hoffans, i.e. a native people of Pegasus? Atlantis helped, but the drug was mostly Hoffan.

Giantevilhead
October 25th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Why don't they have subspace tracking devices? Both the Ancients and the Asgard should be able to make those things. They really need to start incorporating more Asgard tech.

razzel_daxxel
October 25th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Ummm.... I can see what everyone is saying, however this was reall the first ever episode of Atlantis that I was not looking forward to....mostly because -

One: I'v never been a a fan of clip shows, they never seem to progress the programes storyline and just seem to be used as a way to bulk out a series, however because that was Stargate I thought I would give it a go...... Alas I was reminded why I hate clip shows LOL

Two: Since the beggining of season 5 SG:A seems to have taken a very dark and moody turn... now im fine for dark and moody, but there used to be "some" funny moments, this episode that was almost nothing funny.

Three: This episode just seemed to "refer" to one of Dr. Wiers quotes where she pointed out that whislt the Wraith where in-fighting, so where the Humans! (not in itself a bad point, but worth mentioning)

Four: Not really a bad point but I would have prefferd if this was a flashback from the expiditions point of view on the Ancients, for example Rodey find a record in Atlantis's database descibing how at the hight of the wraith war one of the Ambassadors were put on trail to what they had done! I think ultimatly there arragonce etc... would have made for some funny moments lol

Tazz

Ltcolshepjumper
October 25th, 2008, 02:59 PM
Well, one could definitely argue that there are some thigns that could have been better. However, I would rather have had them develop the Coalition better, rather than a loose gathering of races who just want to point the finger at someone. If the Coalition had been a legitimate UN or even EU type group, it would have been much better.

Fan-e-Gate
October 25th, 2008, 03:21 PM
Well I didn't know people had such big issues that this thread even needed to be posted and hardlined.

Inherently wrong-I don't think there is any episode that ever is inherently wrong
I was expecting a clip show with deep analysis of the team's action (as best as possible in 40min). Instead we got a farce of a court case. I guess this is better than the team beaming out and escaping judgment.

But as much as this episode was to bring light of Atlantis' actions I felt it was more of a vehicle/filler to explain why Earth needs to play a bigger role in a Human alliance.


Hypocrisy-Of course-The Genii cared so much that they left one guy behind while we can't care about Weir and we weren't suposed to go find the Wraith after the very first culling (and save everyone).
Also we get accused of everything (admittedly some of it is stuff we did) but they don't believe the Wraith hives we destroyed. That is frustrating

Sure the Atlantis team was kind of pushed into a corner and accused but Shepherd didn't really seem to rake responsible. They Atlantis group would have been screwed if they found out who activated the Attero device as well.

As an aside: An episode of Doctor Who I saw recently discusses if the doctor causes more death than good- Season 4's Turn Left

gopher65
October 25th, 2008, 04:37 PM
<snip>There were few things obviously wrong with the plot.</snip>Yes, I agree. But those are all *creative* problems, not *technical* problems. All of those things can be ascribed to various characters being stupid. That isn't a technical problem, that's a lack of creativity.

It isn't being argued that this was a good episode - in my mind it was a particularly poor episode, with the exception of Woolsey's character - it's being argued that (for once) there were no major problems in the technical writing or research. IE, they didn't forget about the subspace transmitters. As an example of this type of technical error, in last week's episode the writers made a technical error with Teyla's character, forgetting that she could sense the Wraith. Oops.


<snip>2. The Michael experiment and activating the replicators' attack code. What experiments and strategies we use against the Wraith is our bussinis.</snip>Well, yeah, I guess. But the tribunal's biggest complaint was that the Atlantis Expedition wasn't consulting the very people whose lives would be affected by the decisions that they were making. We see these kinds of complaints all the time in the real world (and sometimes they are just as inanely stupid and out of place as these complaints were), so it isn't unrealistic for people to act like the Tribunal did.

Avalonis
October 25th, 2008, 04:56 PM
The justice process rarely involves justice. Every court is bought by someone.

Celesto
October 25th, 2008, 05:22 PM
I didnt like this episode that much too. I mean....for a stargate-fan everything was known. Just the judgeroom- and the prison-scenes were new in that episode. Dont like to say it, but it was simply kind of boring. On the other way, there s the point that not everybody likes the Atlantians. Maybe that could lead to another good story. And to bring in the Genii again...dont know. They may be the second effective army in the galaxy, but there are worlds between them and the Wraith concerning technology and stuff. Or not? Who knows, what secret labs they have (and will they be shown every again in SGA?). Well yeah. This episode was the worst for me yet during Season 5.

rarocks24
October 25th, 2008, 05:27 PM
The justice process rarely involves justice. Every court is bought by someone.
You have weak faith in the justice system.

General Yogi Bear
October 25th, 2008, 09:23 PM
Clip shows are out of date in era where entire seasons of shows can be purchased on DVD for a reasonable price and one can go on the internet and look at the episode guide or just use a DVR. In the 1970's and 80's clip shows made sense. The episode was good but would of been better if it wasn't a clip show. To end on a positive note at least the clip show saved some money for the season finale. :)

MIZA
October 26th, 2008, 01:54 AM
Listen carefully, for I will only say this once:
There was absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this episode.

Yes, yes, I know that it seems almost impossible, what with the string of flawed (in minor or major ways) the writers have churned out over the past, oh, 3 years or so with even the best of episodes containing at least one element that's either a plot hole or randomly bad/shark-jumpy/out of character/pure BS most of the time.

OK, so as a clip show, a large portion of the episode was just reused footage. But there was nothing really wrong with the new footage or the storyline of the episode! For once, there's nothing inherently wrong!

I mean, subjectively, I could point out things I personally didn't like about the episode, but artistically and objectively, there's nothing that's actually "wrong" about the episode.

I'm having problems comprehending this. So, did anyone find anything that was by nature bad (bad writing, etc.) about the episode? I mean, that biased judge was so obviously biased and stupid ("My family died! Somehow has to pay!" - never mind the fact that all of the people who killed her family were long dead), but her inclusion and writing wasn't flawed by nature.

i just don't like clip shows, sometimes they show the characters looking stupid i guess i just didn't like the sg1 clip shows,


but i understand why they do it

dmacfour
October 26th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Here's whats weird: I hate clip shows, and I hate trial episodes (They've been done in every other Sci-fi show I've watched, and I've never like them). Somehow I enjoyed this episode... I wasn't super great, and it wasn't bad. I think it was on the line of mediocre and good for me.

talyn2k1
October 27th, 2008, 07:11 AM
I am not normally a fan of clip shows, except the kind that do something to further the current arc or actually contribute to the show in some way.

In the same way I appreciated SG-1's Disclosure for being a clip show but also for being a pivotal episode in terms of the interaction of other nations with the Stargate program, I also appreciated this as furthering our involvement with the other human populations in the galaxy.

Clip shows are a necessary evil in TV, one that SGA has mainly managed to avoid, but when it is done well like Inquisition and Disclosure, it can still contribute to the series despite it's low budget.

somme
October 27th, 2008, 07:32 AM
I hate clip shows - I'd rather just have one less episode in a season if they can't afford not to have a clip show.

AVFan
October 27th, 2008, 07:49 AM
The only thing wrong with this episode is that the gate room was not completely blown up still. Of course, I didn't expect it to look exactly like it did at the beginning of Lost Tribe, but there should be some black marks on the walls and floors, with the windows obviously still blown out. The consoles in the control room were damaged beyond repair (or at least so it seemed to me).

But as far as the story of this episode goes, I agree, it was clean.

MIZA
October 28th, 2008, 06:36 PM
yes the i agree it was very borg

nx01a
October 28th, 2008, 06:46 PM
One of my main problems with clip shows is, well, the clips shown.:P They're usually boring. This one featured all the great CGI moments [and not so great ones like BAMSR], so I was happy.

As for the trial plot, it was nicely done. Woolsey finally came into his own. They mixed in the politics of Pegasus well in various ways, from the effects on the peasants:P to the imperial plans of the Genii.
Now, if only Ronon, Mckay and Teyla had testified before Woolsey showed up, it would have been perfect.

Brain_Child
October 28th, 2008, 09:28 PM
I hate clip shows - I'd rather just have one less episode in a season if they can't afford not to have a clip show.

This is my line of thinking. While clip shows arent necessarily bad, they do have the effect of pushing back a "complete" SGA episode for another week. Its another week long wait to see all new stargate.

admitidely stargate does the best clip shows, but it still doesnt compare to a standard full length episode

Shan Bruce Lee
October 29th, 2008, 02:30 AM
I think hell just froze over

Achaja
October 29th, 2008, 03:03 PM
(If I correctly understood) - the bad thing in the episode was promoting bribery! I know, that it was a trick, their pass to freedom but I would probably suspect something more...I don't know...moral? Woolsey thinks - oh what a problem, we can afford it! The easiest way is to paid... now I don't know if they are worth something if they can't stand face to face with a problem, moral problem I think. I know the judges weren't ok, and the whole trial was a farce but what does the team proove by their behaviour? It reminds me of arrogance that some countries and goverments have in real life...sad!

If I'm wrong, or misunderstood please tell me)

jenks
October 29th, 2008, 03:20 PM
(If I correctly understood) - the bad thing in the episode was promoting bribery! I know, that it was a trick, their pass to freedom but I would probably suspect something more...I don't know...moral? Woolsey thinks - oh what a problem, we can afford it! The easiest way is to paid... now I don't know if they are worth something if they can't stand face to face with a problem, moral problem I think. I know the judges weren't ok, and the whole trial was a farce but what does the team proove by their behaviour? It reminds me of arrogance that some countries and goverments have in real life...sad!

If I'm wrong, or misunderstood please tell me)

Given what they've done in the past, I don't know why...

silvercomet
October 30th, 2008, 03:23 PM
I liked that ep. Not one of my favourite ones, but not bad either. And I liked to see 'the old gang' again.

What was wrong with it: I had the feeling the story was rushed. They hadn't handle it with enough depth for this subject. And there wasn't enough time to show the whole team. Maybe a two-parter or no clips would have been better.

DrCheese
October 30th, 2008, 05:42 PM
I hate clip shows - I'd rather just have one less episode in a season if they can't afford not to have a clip show.
Exactly! Although it's the fault of Sci FI for not insisting they don't do clip shows in the original contract.
If a network orders say, 24 esp's, they should get 24 esp's. Not 23 and 1/4.

Emerald01
October 31st, 2008, 05:49 PM
Someone is going to have to define "inherently wrong" for me. From the first post, it seemed to include plot holes and such, but now I'm not sure. Because I found oh so many things to be wrong with this episode.

Let's set aside the clips and technology concerns for a moment. Let's even put aside the ridiculous "They created the replicators and started the problem, but they're not here, and you are" garbage.

You have one judge who is reasonable. He has to know that the woman next to him was freakin' crazy and should no way have been on that jury. In any case. the people from Atlantis KILLED the people who killed her family.

For anyone in the Pegasus galaxy to think that they would be able to spirit Sheppard & Co. away is insane.

TWO of the team members are Pegasus natives. Why was Sheppard the only one standing up there to talk?

And just WHO were the people of Atlantis supposed to consult in their decisions? There was no coalition. Just a bunch of planets apparently with a single village near the stargate (with a few noted exceptions of course).

Did anyone ever think that the whole ball got rolling with the simple act of John picking a necklace up out of the dirt? That's what brought the wraith to Athos, got people captured, etc. That put things squarely right back on the wraith which were created by the Ancients, and are all dead. Case closed.

I have to cut it off there, as it's just waiting to turn into a rant. This episode fell right into my bottom 3 with Sanctuary and er. I can't even recall the other at the moment, so I guess it's bottom 2 for this one. Maybe even bottom 1. God, I hated this episode. And that is the first time I have ever said that about an SGA episode. I hated it. I don't even want to know who wrote it because I'm afraid I would have to start slapping some somebodies. I can't understand how this made it out of the writers' room.

Oh sorry. I'll stop now.
Em

michellec24_7
November 15th, 2008, 04:00 PM
I agree, I think this was a bit of a lazy episode, but maybe it was because too many people were on holiday for filming? lol!!!

As this is the supposed last season (which I'm still struggling to comprehend) I think they could've certainly done more with it.... I'm suprised there weren't more representatives from other human worlds?

I guess I'm just a bit bitter cause I don't want it to ever end so looking for any extra ways to keep the storyline going, I'd like to see more with this Coalition xox

FallenAngelII
November 16th, 2008, 08:00 AM
You have one judge who is reasonable. He has to know that the woman next to him was freakin' crazy and should no way have been on that jury. In any case. the people from Atlantis KILLED the people who killed her family.
She never directly said that Atlantis killed her people and her family. And the reasonable judge was not in control of the court, he was just one of three judges in a kangaroo court orchestrated by someone behind the scenes.


For anyone in the Pegasus galaxy to think that they would be able to spirit Sheppard & Co. away is insane.
Why? Claim it's a friendly mission, stun them. It's not that hard. What, are they psychic? They're not Superman. They've been stunned and captured even in battle situations when they were on alert.


TWO of the team members are Pegasus natives. Why was Sheppard the only one standing up there to talk?
Because he's team leader and military commander of Atlantis? Not to mention that the Atlantis expedition consists mostly of non-Pegasus natives, why should a Pegasus native be their representative?


And just WHO were the people of Atlantis supposed to consult in their decisions? There was no coalition. Just a bunch of planets apparently with a single village near the stargate (with a few noted exceptions of course).
Doesn't change the fact that the expedition took huge risks and made very big decisions that would affect the entire galaxy without asking anyone.


Did anyone ever think that the whole ball got rolling with the simple act of John picking a necklace up out of the dirt? That's what brought the wraith to Athos, got people captured, etc. That put things squarely right back on the wraith which were created by the Ancients, and are all dead. Case closed.
The Ancients did not create the Wraith, that's a myth from a throw-away line. As for the necklace, how would they know that? Only the people of Atlantis could possibly know that.

And John was the one to pick up that necklace. And that was just one action. It alerted one Hive to their existence. That Hive then went to cull Athos and John went on a rescue mission that ended with awakening every single Wraith in the galaxy. Also, John did it all.

Emerald01
November 18th, 2008, 07:30 PM
She never directly said that Atlantis killed her people and her family. And the reasonable judge was not in control of the court, he was just one of three judges in a kangaroo court orchestrated by someone behind the scenes.
The team was being held responsible for the deaths of her husband and children. The trial was about Atlantis being responsible, "directly or indirectly" for the many deaths and bad stuffs like awakening the wraith.


Why? Claim it's a friendly mission, stun them. It's not that hard. What, are they psychic? They're not Superman. They've been stunned and captured even in battle situations when they were on alert.
That isn't what they did. They made it known exactly who they were. Therefore, for them to think that Atlantis would stand by when they had blatantly kidnapped the team would be stupid in the extreme. Atlantis knew who had been responsible for taking the team and would pretty much hunt them down. Anyone in the Pegasus Galaxy who knew even as much as those goobers did should have known that they'd never be allowed to actually exile the team without consequences.


Because he's team leader and military commander of Atlantis? Not to mention that the Atlantis expedition consists mostly of non-Pegasus natives, why should a Pegasus native be their representative?
The entire team was on trial. A decent trial would allow all parties to speak. Logically, people blaming Atlantis for all the Pegasus woes should want to question two natives who have joined up with Atlantis. Equally, Teyla and Ronon, knowing the charges (and themselves being in jeopardy) should have asked to speak as Pegasus natives and why they felt Atlantis should not be "punished" for the charges made.

Doesn't change the fact that the expedition took huge risks and made very big decisions that would affect the entire galaxy without asking anyone.
I'll say it again a different way. Who do you think they should have asked? The leader of the Athosians? Wait... They were rescuing her from a hive ship, so they couldn't ask her at first. After that, you could pretty much consider her asked. Her people were ALL fine. Should Atlantis have gone around polling worlds? Any people of significance were not in power at times of major decisions, or they were off doing really stupid things of their own.

The Ancients did not create the Wraith, that's a myth from a throw-away line. As for the necklace, how would they know that? Only the people of Atlantis could possibly know that.
When did someone decide that was a myth from a throw-a-way line? I recall one of the Ancients acknowledging that the Wraith were of their own creation. And they don't need to know about the necklace. I was only proving my point that they had completely insufficient information for their charges. Also that the necklace was something which should have been brought up in the defense because it was that which summoned those first Wraith and set the rest of the events in motion. Knowing this, John could have mentioned it. Therefore, the awakening would be the Wraith's doing, and John's by sheer accident of having the wrong gene in the wrong cave at the wrong time.

And John was the one to pick up that necklace. And that was just one action. It alerted one Hive to their existence. That Hive then went to cull Athos and John went on a rescue mission that ended with awakening every single Wraith in the galaxy. Also, John did it all.
By himself? *blink* I believe I saw a different pilot episode... ;) Nobody in the Peg Galaxy could claim they would have done differently in John's situation. None of them bothered to actually consider Atlantis' situation in any case.

I suppose I'll look up "kangaroo" court/trial at some point, but I'm inferring that people mean it to be a trumped up trial with transparent allegations for the purpose of meeting a specific goal. If I'm wrong, someone will have to let me know. I move without that assumption. Here's why.

If the Genii were behind it, that could make a certain amount of sense if they wanted to be the most powerful peeps around. The problem with that is that eliminating only John's team wouldn't move the Genii forward. A conviction *might* convince other worlds to not ally with Atlantis, but really? Alienate Atlantis? The Genii couldn't openly wield power in that situation, and they can rule the coalition with or without Atlantis because Atlantis probably wouldn't care.

If the purpose was to get Atlantis to participate more with the rest of the galaxy, then anyone with half a brain who'd interacted with them would know that all it would take would be to ask. However, with the judgment so close, it is illogical to assume that was the purpose as a conviction would have definitely not done so, and a conviction was likely until Woolsey stepped up.

So what purpose would this kind of trial actually serve? What purpose could any of those people have had. They wanted to make a statement about not being under Atlantis' boot? They wanted to ensure their worlds would be left alone when the Wraith came with nobody from Atlantis to come and help? Satisfy the desire for vengeance for people who lost loved ones? What motive could any of those people have had for actually blatantly luring the team in under false pretenses and threatening their lives? If you have a logical answer for that, I would be fascinated to read it. :)

Cheers!
Em

Alpaca
February 24th, 2013, 07:46 PM
I do not enjoy flashback eps. To me, it seems like the writers were being lazy or ran out of ideas and stringed out the ep with long flashback clips. Then there was the woman in the trial. Clearly an unfair trial. She should have never been allowed to be present. No matter what anyone says, she's not going to sway her vote.

Since Atlantis is one major player in this galaxy, it makes absolutely no sense to even put them on trial. Shouldn't you want all available hands on deck to fight the enemy?

I did enjoy Wooley's performance though. Unlike previous eps where he was lacking in confidence, he was clearly operating within his element here.

Snowman37
February 24th, 2013, 07:53 PM
First off, thread's been dormant for years. I surprised it hasn't been deleted! Second, clip shows are done for budgetary reasons. It allows the producers to take money from one episode and put it towards another episode that has a higher budget than normal.

As for why Atlantis was on trial, it was because the coalition of planets had come to believe that the expedition was doing more harm than good. The Atlantis expedition did, after all, wake the Wraith. However, as Sheppard pointed out, they were totally unaware of who and want the Wraith were when they arrived in Pegasus.

jelgate
February 24th, 2013, 07:55 PM
Threads aren't deleted unless they have been the focus of some major rule breaking

Snowman37
February 24th, 2013, 07:56 PM
Ah. I've posted on boards before where old threads are deleted. Thanks for clearing that up.

Gen. Chris
February 24th, 2013, 10:27 PM
Deletion seems a bit harsh.


On another forum similar to this one (Total War Center) if someone brings up an old thread with a comment that thread is locked (unless it is an important one) and the mods encourage a new thread to be opened.

Davey
February 6th, 2019, 06:13 PM
To put it bluntly, this was clearly a budget cutting episode, minimal sets, flashbacks and cast. Plain and simple. Maybe saving money for another episode. We see this technique everywhere. Very sad.

Platschu
February 7th, 2019, 12:03 AM
This are called "bottle episodes" as far as I know the tv slang. When they have overspent themselves, they had to create such cheaper episodes. You know Netflix hasn't existed at the peak of Stargate, so they had only 2-2,5 million dollars per episode. I have read it somewhere that when they have made Atlantis and SG-1 together, they got 75-80 million dollars for 40 episodes. Even the Ori village set was 1.5 million, the Sodan village was 700-800k or the main Atlantis set was around 5 million dollars. Nobody could achieve so many episodes with such a narrow budget, so Brad Wright and his co-producers must have reused every sets a few times. And the set decorators and the whole team made a good work to hide such things. I am not so sure if the audience would accept such things nowadays. That is the main reason it will be hard to reopen the Stargate if they want to keep the steps with the improved quality of special effects of other tv shows.