There was... absolutely nothing wrong with this episode... ... ... ... somehow

[FallenAngelII]

Listen carefully, for I will only say this once:
There was absolutely nothing inherently wrong with this episode.

Yes, yes, I know that it seems almost impossible, what with the string of flawed (in minor or major ways) the writers have churned out over the past, oh, 3 years or so with even the best of episodes containing at least one element that's either a plot hole or randomly bad/shark-jumpy/out of character/pure BS most of the time.

OK, so as a clip show, a large portion of the episode was just reused footage. But there was nothing really wrong with the new footage or the storyline of the episode! For once, there's nothing inherently wrong!

I mean, subjectively, I could point out things I personally didn't like about the episode, but artistically and objectively, there's nothing that's actually "wrong" about the episode.

I'm having problems comprehending this. So, did anyone find anything that was by nature bad (bad writing, etc.) about the episode? I mean, that biased judge was so obviously biased and stupid ("My family died! Somehow has to pay!" - never mind the fact that all of the people who killed her family were long dead), but her inclusion and writing wasn't flawed by nature.

[gopher65]

I agree. I didn't like the episode, but I didn't notice any large plot holes or plot inconsistencies like I almost always do while watching Stargate episodes. Every time I saw one coming up, Wolsey would head it off (ie, subspace locater, tracking them through the DHD, how he'd win the trial, etc).

All in all I was impressed with the technical side of the writing (which is very, very rare with this show, even in my favourite episodes), even though creatively this ep was pretty bad.

[JackHarkness_Hot]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it was a clip show, nothing more. There was no plotholes as such, none that I've seen so far yet. I haven't seen anyone complain that there's anything wrong with it, so what's going on here?

[FallenAngelII]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it was a clip show, nothing more. There was no plotholes as such, none that I've seen so far yet. I haven't seen anyone complain that there's anything wrong with it, so what's going on here?

Maybe you should re-read the original post where I said the exact same thing?

[JadedWraith]

[B]I mean, that biased judge was so obviously biased and stupid ("My family died! Somehow has to pay!" - never mind the fact that all of the people who killed her family were long dead), but her inclusion and writing wasn't flawed by nature.

I think you just pointed out what was wrong with the episode: no one so clearly involved should be in the jury. The fact that she was biased did not make her necessarily stupid. She pointed out correctly that the Atlanteans took risks and made decisions which affected the whole of Pegasus without consulting anyone. She would make an excellent witness for the prosecution. That way and without the Genii scheme angle, it would be a better episode. What better way to make a clipper episode than to weight past decisions and their consequences to the future?
None of that was ultimately achieved in the end. Let’s sweep that under the rug, who cares about a bunch of unadvanced villagers?

A lot of soul searching is boring, a little bit is healthy.

[Lahela]

I would have preferred if the flashbacks were shorter, maybe just a few frames with a real time voiceover, so Teyla and/or Ronon could have had a chance to speak to the tribunal as PG natives, but other than that... nope, nothing inherently wrong with it.

Edit:

I think you just pointed out what was wrong with the episode: no one so clearly involved should be in the jury. The fact that she was biased did not make her necessarily stupid. She pointed out correctly that the Atlanteans took risks and made decisions which affected the whole of Pegasus without consulting anyone. She would make an excellent witness for the prosecution.

Personally, I think they addressed that with Woolsey's comment. It was clear from the get-go that it was a kangaroo court and there was no attempt to make it seem anything else.

[JackHarkness_Hot]

Maybe you should re-read the original post where I said the exact same thing?

LOL, just making sure.

[FallenAngelII]

I think you just pointed out what was wrong with the episode: no one so clearly involved should be in the jury. The fact that she was biased did not make her necessarily stupid. She pointed out correctly that the Atlanteans took risks and made decisions which affected the whole of Pegasus without consulting anyone. She would make an excellent witness for the prosecution. That way and without the Genii scheme angle, it would be a better episode. What better way to make a clipper episode than to weight past decisions and their consequences to the future?
None of that was ultimately achieved in the end. Let’s sweep that under the rug, who cares about a bunch of unadvanced villagers?

This was addressed in the episode. It was a kangaroo court procedure. The woman was obviously biased and would've voted against our guys no matter what, another judge was in the Genii's pocket. There was only one judge interested in truly seeing justice served.

[JadedWraith]

This was addressed in the episode. It was a kangaroo court procedure. The woman was obviously biased and would've voted against our guys no matter what, another judge was in the Genii's pocket. There was only one judge interested in truly seeing justice served.

The kangaroo court part, yes. The validity of the accusations was not addressed, just superficially mentioned. I just stated it would have a better dynamic if there was a unbiased set of people on the jury. I would like Atlantis to have a fair chance to assess and defend their past choices.

[Lahela]

The kangaroo court part, yes. The validity of the accusations was not addressed, just superficially mentioned. I just stated it would have a better dynamic if there was a unbiased set of people on the jury. I would like Atlantis to have a fair chance to assess and defend their past choices.

But then they might actually be found guilty

[JadedWraith]

But then they might actually be found guilty

Yeah, that might happen. But I would like them to show the same degree of accountability Teal'c showed in the Cor'ai. That's what made me love the big guy. In war sometimes you have to take decisions that are not so ethical, in order to avoid some worse consequences. You should not be proud of them or be dismissive of collateral effects. From a character development point of view, it would be more interesting.

[Lahela]

Yeah, that might happen. But I would like them to show the same degree of accountability Teal'c showed in the Cor'ai. That's what made me love the big guy. In war sometimes you have to take decisions that are not so ethical, in order to avoid some worse consequences. You should not be proud of them or be dismissive of collateral effects. From a character development point of view, it would be more interesting.

ITA JW! Cor'ai was an incredible ep for Teal'c because he didn't deny his actions, just explained his motivations. I suppose the problem with this ep was that there were so many charges they couldn't realistically deal with all of them to that extent because of time constraints so they went with a more gloss-over approach.

[JeffKnight]

Like with Cor-Ai, this episode did give Atlantis a chance to explain/rationalize their actions. John and Woolsey were doing this until Woolsey figured out the deck was stacked, then they took actions to make sure that we live to fight another day.

Yes, one day we will have to be held accountable, just as we will for our actions in the MW, but the bottom line is that overall we have been a major positive force in both galaxies, and while we've made mistakes, we do try and fix them. When we do finally put ourselves before the court of public opinion in each galaxy, it will be before a fair court, not a witch hunt like this was.

[elbo]

There were few things obviously wrong with the plot. Usually even the tribal elders shouldn't be that stupid when they already have 2-3 higly advanced enemies like the Wraith or Michael to make an enemy of Atlantis as well. It's actually seem more logical to invite them to be part of the coalition, because is obvious at this point who need who in this equation. So there is the timing, you don't make war tribunals until the war is actually resolved.

Then there are the people accused. If any guilt can be traced to Atlantis, I don't see what Sheppard's team part is in all this. Michael and all other stuff goes in the responsability of Atlantis leadership, who initiated and autorisated all the plans and experiments. You cannot accomplish any kind of justice by accusing the wrong individual and forcing him to take a general blame. As you could see there was no personal charge against Sheppard the whole trial and they only use charges by associations. The whole request like Shep's team to represent is curious; requesting the leader of the expetition or wanting him in this inquisition would have made far more sense.

The whole point of 'judging someone who is not part of your laws' is not very logical. In SG, the space is free so no tresspasers, and there is no legal Pegasus code acording to which you can establish someone guilt or judge some negative effect of its actions. So:

1. Waking the Wraith. Sheppard didn't woke any Wraith. The red hair Queen did, when she was killed by Sheppard in self defence. It is ridiculous to not be allowed to kill a Wraith queen and to be considered responsable for it. Not to mention that the queen would have woke the Wraith anyway after she learned the new data from Summer. Is not like the Wraith would have sent darts and scout ships to take out Earth. Our simple presence on Athos is the element that in fact leaded to earliy awakening of the Wraith. So you cannot punish somewhere for simply being in a place. Otherwise, i could as easily say that humans in Pegasus are the one respomsable for the existence of the Wraith who would have been long dead without any food source. So if you accuse someone, you have to establish the intent and the guilt to be directly related to one of his actions.

2. The Michael experiment and activating the replicators' attack code. What experiments and strategies we use against the Wraith is our bussinis. Everyone fights in their own way. Both Michael and the Asurans turned out against humans because of their own free will. Same with the Hoffans using the the 'antidote'. Is ridiculous to accuse somebody for a third party actions made in complete self-awarness and free will. The trials and inquisitions are always personal, othewise you will end by accusing one's entire family and friends, being ressponsable for his existtence, education, etc.

So not a very good and original episode, after another 2 SG1 and one SGA similar plots.

[Laura Dove]

I just noticed two minor points:

• Couldn't Woolsey use Ronon's old runner tracking device? They were able to reactivate it in "Sateda".
• Why didn't they mention that the Hoffan drug Michael spread had initially been created by, well, the Hoffans, i.e. a native people of Pegasus? Atlantis helped, but the drug was mostly Hoffan.