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tombombadil
October 18th, 2008, 12:52 PM
I think it was pretty messed up of the team to use that dude(the one who tried to turn the people over to the wraith) to lure the wraith into a trap, and then blow him up.....even if the guy was guilty, he was still acting for what he thought was good for the village.....does anyone else think this was wrong?

Briangate78
October 18th, 2008, 01:06 PM
Why? Hmm good question indeed.

Perhaps, Sheppard likely thought he sold them to the Wraith, and the reason why Carson and Mckay were captured. He even put a gun to his head and even if the guy denied it, I don't think Sheppard bought it.

I think the head of the village person went through with it, because he felt it was murder either way. Perhaps he felt that the rogue villagers damned themselves by damning others first and not thinking rationally. Remember what Carson said? It would easier to just pull the trigger and kill them yourself right now. *Great Carson moment btw*

Gotta say, some really dark stuff going on with this episode.

haloplayer
October 18th, 2008, 01:21 PM
I think it was pretty messed up of the team to use that dude(the one who tried to turn the people over to the wraith) to lure the wraith into a trap, and then blow him up.....even if the guy was guilty, he was still acting for what he thought was good for the village.....does anyone else think this was wrong?

I can say the same for the Germans in WW2. The Nazi's felt what they were doing was right and good when the slaughtered the Jews. Just because someone who thought he was doing good does not get a Get out of Jail free card.

GoSpikey
October 18th, 2008, 02:34 PM
If eg Team Shep would have gone after them into the mine, and started shooting, Jervis was going to shoot back at them.

Can't have that, so boom it is.

Jackie
October 18th, 2008, 06:09 PM
I can say the same for the Germans in WW2. The Nazi's felt what they were doing was right and good when the slaughtered the Jews. Just because someone who thought he was doing good does not get a Get out of Jail free card.

Actually the Nazi's were well aware of the fact it was wrong. They even tried to destroy records they kept of the people they killed during the last days in power. tried to speed up the killing process instead of sending more troops to the losing front lines--getting rid of survivor. You don't try to destroy incriminating evidence if you think you are in the right. Most lower ranking Nazi's were "following orders" and if they refused would be in fear of thier own lives and the lives of their families.

Many of the commoners in Germany had not known what was going on and simply assumed the Jews were just sent away. Many of the surrounding townspeople were forced to walk through the camps after Americans liberated them. Many of the German citizens were horrified by it.

The higher ups decided the camps was a great way to expand presonal space, get rid of the jews (which were seen as greedy american lovers and deemed less than worthy of life.) The scary part is the US actually gave Hitler the idea. Yes, we did it when we placed the Indians on Reservations. Hitler not only thought confining a select group to a camp was not only great but took it one step further and turned it into a human processing planet of death.

As for SGA:

I didn't actually see the ep so I will not coment on what sheppard sis in the ep. However, the character's actions in MC was enough to turn my stomach.

It's like stargate has no idea what it wants to be. It's not sure if it should be an edgy BSG type drama, a comedy, a classic sci-fi show, star trek, an action show, a romance show. The show idendity disorder makes me dizzy just thinking about it.

I believe it's wrong for the writer's to make sheppard a dark type of character after they established him as the "cool, funny pilot" type leader. It's makes him very OoC.

Just imagine the damage that would be done if the writers of BSG decided to make that show a comedy! Suddenly Starbuck is running around in a bikini, Admiral Adama is getting lost on his own ship and locked out of rooms, Appollo becomes a "sheppard" type character that flirts with all the girls. Make Baltar into Mckay...would end up being pretty ridculas.

tombombadil
October 18th, 2008, 06:34 PM
I can say the same for the Germans in WW2. The Nazi's felt what they were doing was right and good when the slaughtered the Jews. Just because someone who thought he was doing good does not get a Get out of Jail free card.(the slaughtered jews you speak of are my ancestors:mckay:)
i don't think he should be excused by any means.i'm just saying he should've had a trial.

Zamboni
October 18th, 2008, 09:09 PM
(the slaughtered jews you speak of are my ancestors:mckay:)
i don't think he should be excused by any means.i'm just saying he should've had a trial.How can your ancestors be slaughtered if you're here? Unless you were already around during WW2...? Never met an old timer who likes SGA so much...

But in any case, the character in question was willing to sacrifice lives of others to (possibly) save his own. He chose his fate.

Notice how the elder didn't open the cell, they had a choice.

Nitegate
October 18th, 2008, 10:51 PM
How can your ancestors be slaughtered if you're here? Unless you were already around during WW2...? Never met an old timer who likes SGA so much...

But in any case, the character in question was willing to sacrifice lives of others to (possibly) save his own. He chose his fate.

Notice how the elder didn't open the cell, they had a choice.


my dad was born in 1946, he's 62 and loves stargate sg-1 and atlantis

plus on sheppards defense, he didn't know if the people who were locked up were gonna go with the wraith, it's their own damn fault.

Fan-e-Gate
October 18th, 2008, 11:22 PM
This was actually extremely messed up.
I can think of numerous episodes where traitors have been killed at the hands of the episodes enemies. However I can never think of one where any team has used them as a pawn.

And it wasn't just him. All his colleagues from the cell were also with him.
Stargate has always been unrealistic in its portrayal in that everyone important survives without having complex moral judgements. It was just as slack if not more than the GitM episode.

If anything the leader himself should have gone to get the Wraith and lure them. He would have at least known what he was sacrificing etc. He was pretty spineless. Mind you I always hate Stargate's "good for the tribe" uprighteous traitors but still they had no right to kill him.

I am not going to get into the Nazi thing cause I don't know and when you read books like "The Wave" (i think).

Finger13
October 18th, 2008, 11:41 PM
Why does it matter? Sure there's moral ambiguity, but it was their only realistic way off of the planet. The men who were in that cell were there because they betrayed other innocent people.

You pick your side and stick with it, and they clearly weren't on ours.

It'd be like being held at gun point and being told to kill others, and going through with it, then acting surprised when it comes back to haunt you. These guys rounded up others and handed them over to their almost certain deaths, and Shepperd merely did the same.

Not to mention that by killing what, less than a dozen irrational and untrustworthy people who had clearly shown they were willing to do the Wraith's bidding, Shepperd saved hundreds of people. He also had the support of the town's leader, in fact it was the town's leader who ultimately sent his own men to their deaths, so...

Fan-e-Gate
October 19th, 2008, 02:04 AM
so why didn't the leader go himself.
If a bad guy did this-we would be waxing lyrical about how evil/cold hearted they are. Or how they used their comrades as pawns to remove a power struggle.

At the end of the day these "bad" guys tried to help their population. The atlantis team + the leader (who I have a bigger issue with) used this against them and used them as bait. Would have seemed more dignified if they gave them the choice and if they refused then the leader could have done it himself.

I guess my primary annoyance has been the hypocrisy. There have been entire evil populations, traitorous leaders and even some main characters who should have been killed of by the SG1/SGA teams. Except they got a relative slap on the wrist compared to a couple of "witch hunters" (who didn't all need to die).

Xaeden
October 19th, 2008, 05:32 AM
so why didn't the leader go himself.
If a bad guy did this-we would be waxing lyrical about how evil/cold hearted they are. Or how they used their comrades as pawns to remove a power struggle.

Perhaps he offered, but Sheppard had more faith in the leader's ability to fool the others with his acting abilities than the Wraith. When he gave the others the keys, he was ashamed of himself and it showed, but they assumed it was because he was letting them turn in the Balarans. However, with the Wraith, even if he did have the courage to go through with sacrificing himself, (he may have believed he did, but with a person like that one can't know until in the thick of things) he would've had to not shown any signs that he was afraid for his own safety or he'd tip them off. Something, which really isn't remotely easy to do for most people in such a situation (a lot of people would begin to uncontrollably shake and/or give it away in their voice, mannerisms, and expressions) and something I doubt any of those simple villagers could've pulled off. So, by using the others they were assured that the Wraith would be lead to their deaths by people who were genuine about their intent. Thus the Wraith would have no reason to believe something was amiss (they only had one shot at it so if there was a screw up, chances are everyone would've died).

moomin81
October 19th, 2008, 05:51 AM
I dont think it was messed up at all, I would have done the exact same thing in given the same circumstances. That guy was willing to shop them all to the Wraith, not just the Balarans (sp?), he knew full well Sheppard and all the rest would have been caught also. From the beginning that guy wanted to hand them over to the Wraith without even considering an alternative so tbh I think he got exactly what he deserved. Might sound harsh but what other options were there? Like someone has already mentioned, he clearly wasent on our side, it's not like it was a simple disagreement, he was going to hand them over to the Wraith. I dont see any moral dilemma in this and I dont really see what all the fuss is about ... Sheppard done what was right imo.

section33
October 19th, 2008, 06:23 AM
I'm not sure but i was under the impression that the first group of Balarans were taken by the wraith, I thought this might be part of the logic that lead to Sheppard sacrifice/murder, as they sent a group of innocent people to there death.

Naonak
October 19th, 2008, 06:48 AM
It's like stargate has no idea what it wants to be. It's not sure if it should be an edgy BSG type drama, a comedy, a classic sci-fi show, star trek, an action show, a romance show. The show idendity disorder makes me dizzy just thinking about it.
I don't see it as an identity crisis - I see it as the show being capable of doing different things, which is no bad thing IMO.


I believe it's wrong for the writer's to make sheppard a dark type of character after they established him as the "cool, funny pilot" type leader. It's makes him very OoC.
Or, you know, layered. It's not like this is something sudden - Shep's had his darker moments since the first season - raising the shield to stop the Genii, shooting Bob...


Just imagine the damage that would be done if the writers of BSG decided to make that show a comedy! Suddenly Starbuck is running around in a bikini, Admiral Adama is getting lost on his own ship and locked out of rooms, Appollo becomes a "sheppard" type character that flirts with all the girls. Make Baltar into Mckay...would end up being pretty ridculas.
That's not really the same thing... Or even similar.

Avalonis
October 19th, 2008, 07:04 AM
Because hugging them was the right thing to do. I dont want to be on your team I'll end up dead.

Jackie
October 19th, 2008, 07:36 AM
I don't see it as an identity crisis - I see it as the show being capable of doing different things, which is no bad thing IMO.


It's nice to have that option of "doing different things" but because the industry and most viewers have set genres of which novels/movies/TV falls into there is a NEED for consistency. IF SGA cannot decide if it's a comedy/action or edgy drama it will turn off more viewers than not. People have an expectation when they turn into a show like Stargate (one that has been on the air for 5 years now). One expects the main character to be consistent and not swinging from one extreme to the other. Unless your main character is supposed to be borderline psycho it doesn't really help the over all illusion of reality.

With O'Neill they could pull off some borderline psycho moments because Jack was suicidal in the movie.

I don't sheppard think ever had a nervous breakdown or lost his child to his service weapon and laced with massive guilt. There is no reasoning for Sheppard's behavior.

It would be no different than turning BSG into a comedy and no more different than making Harry Potter into a flaming gay, mass murderer. Neither would make the productions appealing.



Or, you know, layered. It's not like this is something sudden - Shep's had his darker moments since the first season - raising the shield to stop the Genii, shooting Bob...



No, as I recall the Genii were INVADING the city and it was the only means of self defense. Shooting Bob - though a stupid move wasn't as off the wall as feeding a grieving father to Todd.

"Layered" as you put it doesn't mean inconstant in character moods and logic. Shriek was layered. Deep with emotion and thought. That is what layered means. Sheppard is just psycho!

Naonak
October 19th, 2008, 08:04 AM
It's nice to have that option of "doing different things" but because the industry and most viewers have set genres of which novels/movies/TV falls into there is a NEED for consistency. IF SGA cannot decide if it's a comedy/action or edgy drama it will turn off more viewers than not.
It's a bit silly IMO to limit it to being either "comedy/action" or "edgy drama". Seriously, not all drama has to be "edgy". Tonally it's similar to Firefly or early Farscape, with a good mix of fun action-adventure and drama. (And I'm not saying it's as good as either of those, before anyone starts *****ing...)

And most episodes of both Stargates do fall into the category of relatively light-hearted action-adventure, but some take it to either side, going more comedic or more dramatic than usual. Heck, this was just one scene in Outsiders - it had plenty of comic relief, too, with the Rodney/Carson pairing.


No, as I recall the Genii were INVADING the city and it was the only means of self defense.
Yeah, I know that, but I still see it as a slightly dodgy moment. But it was a case of the ends justifying the means, and I guess I see this moment in Outsiders as another.


Shooting Bob - though a stupid move wasn't as off the wall as feeding a grieving father to Todd.
At least they got something out of feeding Todd - shooting Bob was basically just venting his anger...


"Layered" as you put it doesn't mean inconstant in character moods and logic. Shriek was layered. Deep with emotion and thought. That is what layered means. Sheppard is just psycho!
Eh, I see him differently... (Obviously... :p)

tombombadil
October 19th, 2008, 08:16 AM
How can your ancestors be slaughtered if you're here? Unless you were already around during WW2...? Never met an old timer who likes SGA so much...



great great grandparents died in holocaust great grandfather and grandfather lived:mckay:<snip>

tombombadil
October 19th, 2008, 08:22 AM
at the very least, we can say that what they did was very questionable.

Jackie
October 19th, 2008, 11:34 AM
It's a bit silly IMO to limit it to being either "comedy/action" or "edgy drama". Seriously, not all drama has to be "edgy". Tonally it's similar to Firefly or early Farscape, with a good mix of fun action-adventure and drama. (And I'm not saying it's as good as either of those, before anyone starts *****ing...)



The genre is industry standard...not mine. When I submit a manuscript I have to state what type of genre it fall into and even give recent examples of other published work. The genres are very basic and the work needs to fall into one major category. Sci-fiction, fiction, literary, non fiction, historical, historical fiction, family, juvenile, western, action/adventure, fantasy. (Fantasy and science fiction are viewed as two different categories for the most part) Mainstream, contempuary, gay/lesbian, ect.

It's fine to have a combination of elements in the show but it has be done with consistency. It's fine to have a "darker episode" but it has to be consistent with the character's set cannon and expectations of the viewers. The problem I have with SGA is the lack of consistency from ep to ep with character (except Teyla--she's still a wall flower) and the general direction of the show.

IMO sheppard is not very consistent as a character. His past seems to have no bearing on his future. (Another major character development no-no. The past always affects the character.) Matter of fact we don't much about sheppard. We know more about Rodney than Sheppard. Heck, we more Keller and woosley than sheppard. He's basically a marty stu to the extreme. Can fly anything, do anything, get's the chicks, smarter than the scientist, John wayne, shoot first ask questions later type character.

The only reason he's not an obvious Mart Stu is becuase JF can act with the crap he's given. Gold star to JF. :)

Zamboni
October 19th, 2008, 12:39 PM
great great grandparents died in holocaust great grandfather and grandfather lived:mckay:<snip>.I didn't kill your forefathers. Why are you calling me a jerk? You specifically said "the slaughtered Jews you speak of are my ancestors" as if all your ancestors were murdered during the Holocost. It's a valid for me to question the origin of your existence if that was the case.

If you're comparing the Wraith sympathizers (ie. guys with shotguns that got blown up) to Nazi supporters, then I do not see why you would have a problem with killing them. Unless you are deeply conflicted with the killing of Nazis in WW2.

The ultimate point of a WW2 analogy is that one side is pure evil (Axis) while the others are pure good (Allies). Granted this is never true on a macro level but this is Stargate; it's not an analytical historic documentary. You want to argue morals? Why not put Shep on trial for all the Wraith he killed? The Wraith aren't killing humans out of greed or racial purity, they're killing humans for survival.

If I were to say "Every member of my entire family was killed in Nanking massacre", you'd probably wonder how I came into existence. Don't be reaching for the "you're a Nazi" tag every time someone questions your words on an unrelated context.

tombombadil
October 19th, 2008, 01:54 PM
I didn't kill your forefathers. Why are you calling me a jerk? You specifically said "the slaughtered Jews you speak of are my ancestors" as if all your ancestors were murdered during the Holocost. It's a valid for me to question the origin of your existence if that was the case.

If you're comparing the Wraith sympathizers (ie. guys with shotguns that got blown up) to Nazi supporters, then I do not see why you would have a problem with killing them. Unless you are deeply conflicted with the killing of Nazis in WW2.

The ultimate point of a WW2 analogy is that one side is pure evil (Axis) while the others are pure good (Allies). Granted this is never true on a macro level but this is Stargate; it's not an analytical historic documentary. You want to argue morals? Why not put Shep on trial for all the Wraith he killed? The Wraith aren't killing humans out of greed or racial purity, they're killing humans for survival.

If I were to say "Every member of my entire family was killed in Nanking massacre", you'd probably wonder how I came into existence. Don't be reaching for the "you're a Nazi" tag every time someone questions your words on an unrelated context.

killing with out any official ruling or trial is what they did:mckay: we gave them trials to make them acknowledge what they did was wrong:mckay:

Skydiver
October 19th, 2008, 01:57 PM
guys, i understand the similarities, but let's not get too far off topic please.

dasNdanger
October 19th, 2008, 01:59 PM
I think it was pretty messed up of the team to use that dude(the one who tried to turn the people over to the wraith) to lure the wraith into a trap, and then blow him up.....even if the guy was guilty, he was still acting for what he thought was good for the village.....does anyone else think this was wrong?

Yes, it was wrong. And it wasn't just one man, there were other villagers with him - I counted at least 5.

So, many humans were killed to get rid of a few Wraith that Ronon could have easily dispatched, given his skills as a hunter, and his Wraith body count in Sateda.



das

Finger13
October 19th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I would have just chucked the block of C4 at the Wraith at the gate lol, BOOM.

But that could damage the DHD.

I still think Shepperd was justified.

tombombadil
October 19th, 2008, 02:06 PM
I would have just chucked the block of C4 at the Wraith at the gate lol, BOOM.

But that could damage the DHD.

I still think Shepperd was justified.

even then they could've just waited until the Daedalus was sent to investigate. there were alternatives that Sheppard didn't even explore....

Finger13
October 19th, 2008, 02:07 PM
even then they could've just waited until the Daedalus was sent to investigate. there were alternatives that Sheppard didn't even explore....

How do you know where the Daedalus was? They never mention it as far as I can remember. For all we know it was in the MW. And waiting for a few weeks to be rescued while a Hive is in orbit isn't exactly convenient or practical. That's far too long to hold out against a Hive full of Wraith, and they could have continued sending darts from the Hive and troops through the gate.

tombombadil
October 19th, 2008, 02:12 PM
How do you know where the Daedalus was? They never mention it as far as I can remember. For all we know it was in the MW. And waiting for a few weeks to be rescued while a Hive is in orbit isn't exactly convenient or practical. That's far too long to hold out against a Hive full of Wraith, and they could have continued sending darts and troops through the gate.

good point....i forgot about the hive:P

Zamboni
October 19th, 2008, 03:21 PM
Let's not forget that Deady is probably under repairs from damages done by Ronan, the Wraith, and re-entering atmosphere w/o shields. If they had access to Deady Shep would have said so instead of claiming they would bring more PJs.

And another detail no one managed to bring up, the 5 villagers Sheppard killed were responsible for the death of dozens of people including that girl Novo.

We've seen how the Wraith "reward" the ones who betray others for their selfish gains, do you really believe Jervis would have saved anyone?

It's not like they were dancing in joy after detonating the C4; Shep wasn't happy about killing Jervis either but it had to be done. I'm sure if Jervis had learned from his past misdeeds Shep would have found another way to kill the Wraiths.

Fan-e-Gate
October 20th, 2008, 12:59 AM
Perhaps he offered, but Sheppard had more faith in the leader's ability to fool the others with his acting abilities than the Wraith.


Obviously there is always the risk of someone giving away the plan in the real world. I agree with that
However in in Stargate's decade long history rarely has a villain caught on. Lots of suicidal honor missions have been rather successful. More correctly if someone wanted to be devious they can usually achieve this (in the Stargate series).
Even more correctly it is totally out of place in Atlantis which has never really been a show about moral ambiguity or gritty emotional turmoil/callousness.

It was a risk but at the same time the Wraith had no reason to suspect otherwise-they did not know about the Atlantis team being on the planet. And the last time the locals had met the Wraith, they handed over the first group of Balerans. If anything they could have considered them trustworthy. Personally the wraith would probably be more suspicious of someone who wasn't sweating in front of him (they are afterall scary vampires).


I dont think it was messed up at all, I would have done the exact same thing in given the same circumstances. That guy was willing to shop them all to the Wraith, not just the Balarans (sp?), he knew full well Sheppard and all the rest would have been caught also. From the beginning that guy wanted to hand them over to the Wraith without even considering an alternative so tbh I think he got exactly what he deserved. Might sound harsh but what other options were there? Like someone has already mentioned, he clearly wasent on our side, it's not like it was a simple disagreement, he was going to hand them over to the Wraith. I dont see any moral dilemma in this and I dont really see what all the fuss is about ... Sheppard done what was right imo.


Well I don't know you so I guess you would do the same thing (i really don't know)
He however was not going to shop them all off esp not initially. Initially he never even told the Wraith about the Atlantis team. In fact it was the lone Baleran who really only told them about Beckett.
After this he was in prison so how was he ever going to hand Sheppard to the Wraith. Just because he did not agree with Atlantis doesn't mean he was going to tell the wraith about them. Afterall he only needed to give them Balerans.

To assume he was going to hand over the Atlantis team (because he disagreed with them) is just your assumption (not wrong but definetly not right) so that we can justify that it was all self defence.

Only 1 man needed to die (not the whole group) and that man should have known what he was getting himself into.

Brain_Child
October 20th, 2008, 02:33 AM
Only 1 man needed to die (not the whole group) and that man should have known what he was getting himself into.

Gervis and his mob sided with the wraith in an evil plan. they got what they deserved

jenks
October 20th, 2008, 05:50 AM
Gervis and his mob sided with the wraith in an evil plan. they got what they deserved

How is what the Wraith were going to do any more evil than what Sheppard did? Both of them set out to kill a minority for the sake of a majority, how is what Shep did any more noble?

Lythisrose
October 20th, 2008, 08:00 AM
How is what the Wraith were going to do any more evil than what Sheppard did? Both of them set out to kill a minority for the sake of a majority, how is what Shep did any more noble?

Because with Shep's plan, the minority was a group of "evil" Wraith collaborators, and under the Wraith/Jervis plan the minority was a group of innocent plague survivors. They are not equal. Just because they are human does not make them equally worthy of being saved.

And have my doubts that the Wraith would have honored the deal anyway, they perhaps would have had a nice lunch on Jervis and his cohorts before flying away. Without any guilt whatsoever.

jenks
October 20th, 2008, 09:32 AM
Because with Shep's plan, the minority was a group of "evil" Wraith collaborators, and under the Wraith/Jervis plan the minority was a group of innocent plague survivors. They are not equal. Just because they are human does not make them equally worthy of being saved.

And have my doubts that the Wraith would have honored the deal anyway, they perhaps would have had a nice lunch on Jervis and his cohorts before flying away. Without any guilt whatsoever.

I disagree. They were just trying to save their people, there was nothing even remotely evil about them. Sheppard is just a complete hypocrite, and his immaturity shines through. He tries to see everything in black and white and in doing so completely contradicts the values that he's supposed to stand for.

Lythisrose
October 20th, 2008, 09:45 AM
I disagree. They were just trying to save their people, there was nothing even remotely evil about them. Sheppard is just a complete hypocrite, and his immaturity shines through. He tries to see everything in black and white and in doing so completely contradicts the values that he's supposed to stand for.

Ok, I am curious, what are the values that you feel he contradicted?
I think he's always been the type that if you are on his side you are to be protected at all costs, if you are not, then you have chosen to be expendable.
What's new and when has he ever been portrayed as a saint?
Also, in most TV shows, when you throw your lot in with the Enemy, you are fair game to be blown up.

jenks
October 20th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Ok, I am curious, what are the values that you feel he contradicted?
I think he's always been the type that if you are on his side you are to be protected at all costs, if you are not, then you have chosen to be expendable.
What's new and when has he ever been portrayed as a saint?
Also, in most TV shows, when you throw your lot in with the Enemy, you are fair game to be blown up.

OK you have a point there, scratch that last sentence off my post. I stand by the rest though, and you're right, his mentality is based more on us and them instead of right and wrong, which goes back to the immaturity thing. I don't particularly mind these flaws, I just wish they were addressed or at least alluded to instead of just ignored.

Zamboni
October 20th, 2008, 10:17 AM
OK you have a point there, scratch that last sentence off my post. I stand by the rest though, and you're right, his mentality is based more on us and them instead of right and wrong, which goes back to the immaturity thing. I don't particularly mind these flaws, I just wish they were addressed or at least alluded to instead of just ignored.Let's see how you feel about Shep's "immaturity" if you were in the shoes of those refugees.

The Wraith are the bad guys here. They killed the Ancients, they chased the Asgards into the Abyss, and they have been culling the galaxy for eons. You want to crucify Shep because he killed some idiots who followed the Wraith?

You shouldn't watch Stargate then. You probably think Jack O'Neil is evil for killing that many Goa'ulds, their hosts, and the Jaffas, right? Jack should have been "more mature" and thought of some magical method of winning against galactic oppression without taking a single life.

Lythisrose
October 20th, 2008, 10:39 AM
OK you have a point there, scratch that last sentence off my post. I stand by the rest though, and you're right, his mentality is based more on us and them instead of right and wrong, which goes back to the immaturity thing. I don't particularly mind these flaws, I just wish they were addressed or at least alluded to instead of just ignored.

Perhaps Inquistion will address these issues?

Edit:
When I think about it, Shep might not be the person you'd want to hire as a UN ambassador or diplomat with all the political considerations requred, but he'd be the first one you'd want on your side in a conflict or crisis. He is fulfilling his role as military. Perhaps this is why Todd once told him that he was "more like Wraith than you know." :)

jenks
October 20th, 2008, 12:08 PM
Let's see how you feel about Shep's "immaturity" if you were in the shoes of those refugees.

If I were one of those refugees, I'd be biased.


The Wraith are the bad guys here. They killed the Ancients, they chased the Asgards into the Abyss, and they have been culling the galaxy for eons. You want to crucify Shep because he killed some idiots who followed the Wraith?

You shouldn't watch Stargate then. You probably think Jack O'Neil is evil for killing that many Goa'ulds, their hosts, and the Jaffas, right? Jack should have been "more mature" and thought of some magical method of winning against galactic oppression without taking a single life.

This isn't even worth responding to, go back and read what I actually wrote, and come back if/when you understand it. I'm criticizing him for not being able to separate right and wrong with us and them, that's what's immature about his decision making, something that you seen to suffer from - 'enemy' and 'bad guy' are not synonymous.

dasNdanger
October 20th, 2008, 12:22 PM
Perhaps Inquistion will address these issues?


They will probably be addressed, but I am certain the team will come out smelling like roses, which would really suck because they are responsible for so many disasters since they set foot in the galaxy. I just wish - for once - they'd be held responsible, instead of always being justified in the end, especially when I find it VERY hard to justify most of what they do. Just makes for very frustrating viewing. Glad this IS the last season, because I don't think my nerves could handle another one.


das

FallenAngelII
October 20th, 2008, 01:09 PM
I don't think John thought they were actually gonna bring the Wraith there, just point them in the right direction.

Zamboni
October 20th, 2008, 09:04 PM
'enemy' and 'bad guy' are not synonymous.Only if you're siding with the enemy. To all humans, the Wraith are the enemy and therefore the bad guy.

Todd is not a friend. Neither are the villagers who traded Shep's position for their own gain. They are not neutral and they're not on our side, therefore they are the bad guy.

Sheppard was making decisions in battle. There are only two things in war: friend and foe. Gervis and those who followed him took up arms and relinquished their roles as simple civilians. Since they're not on our side, they are bad guys.

Unless you can name one war where this doesn't apply, your "higher morals" and criticisms are moot.

Giantevilhead
October 21st, 2008, 12:03 AM
Clearly Sheppard did not come up with the plan. It's obvious that the village elder blew up the mine to collect the insurance money.

jenks
October 21st, 2008, 04:52 AM
Only if you're siding with the enemy. To all humans, the Wraith are the enemy and therefore the bad guy.

Only if you consider enemy and bad guy to be synonyms, and they're not. By that logic the Atlantis expedition are also the bad guys.


Todd is not a friend. Neither are the villagers who traded Shep's position for their own gain. They are not neutral and they're not on our side, therefore they are the bad guy.

Yes they are, they're civilians trying to save their village.


Sheppard was making decisions in battle. There are only two things in war: friend and foe. Gervis and those who followed him took up arms and relinquished their roles as simple civilians. Since they're not on our side, they are bad guys.

Complete nonsense, this boils down to the juvenile 'you're either with us or against us mentality' that nationalistic crazies try to instil in people.



Unless you can name one war where this doesn't apply, your "higher morals" and criticisms are moot.

How about every modern war? You think allied troops would murder civilians for betraying their position to the enemy?

Zamboni
October 21st, 2008, 04:48 PM
Only if you consider enemy and bad guy to be synonyms, and they're not. By that logic the Atlantis expedition are also the bad guys.Yes. If you're a Wraith, the Atlantis expedition would be a thorn on your side. If you're Kolya (though I think he's dead now), you'd see Sheppard as the reason for your expulsion from your home.


Yes they are, they're civilians trying to save their village.Civilian + guns / weapons = militant. Ask ANY military personnel, they'll tell you the same. Even the police would consider any armed civilian a threat. That's why you NEVER raise a gun toward a police officer if you don't want to get shot.


Complete nonsense, this boils down to the juvenile 'you're either with us or against us mentality' that nationalistic crazies try to instil in people.Armed combatants in a field of combat would be identified by their allegiance. Any military power within the war zone that is not identified as a friendly would automatically be a threat. Whether or not actions will be take against this threat is a different question. However in this case Gervis and his men, they are armed and against Sheppard. Therefore they are the bad guys and they are a threat. Do you consider them the good guys and completely harmless?


How about every modern war? You think allied troops would murder civilians for betraying their position to the enemy?Actually, allied troops would murder civilians for much less. And they don't usually stop there. Even in wars as recent as "Operation Freedom", Canadian soldiers and civilians are killed because the US troopers "thought" they were the enemy. At times they simply opened fire despite not given the order.

The previous Iraq war, Operation Desert Storm also saw killing of civilians and allied soldiers.

In EVERY war, civilians are killed for no apparent reason. They are considered "collateral damages" and are rarely brought to light (unless you lost the war, then everyone knows the Holocaust).

Stop living in your naive fantasy world of "good guys don't kill civilians". Good guys are the guys who won, no matter how many innocent people they killed.

jenks
October 22nd, 2008, 06:37 AM
Yes. If you're a Wraith, the Atlantis expedition would be a thorn on your side. If you're Kolya (though I think he's dead now), you'd see Sheppard as the reason for your expulsion from your home.

No, they'd be your enemy, you're trying to use the two as synonyms, but they're not. Bad guy has negative connotations, and is by definition the 'immoral' side. In this case neither are, or both are.


Civilian + guns / weapons = militant. Ask ANY military personnel, they'll tell you the same. Even the police would consider any armed civilian a threat. That's why you NEVER raise a gun toward a police officer if you don't want to get shot.

The police don't consider an armed civilian to be a militant, nor do the military. Besides, Shep and his team have no jurisdiction there, they have no right to make such distinctions. As far as they are concerned they're just civilians, and Shep even knew full well that they weren't a threat. SG personnel have a mandate to stay out of political disputes on other worlds anyway, so either way he shouldn't have been getting involved, and he endangered himself and his team by doing so.


Armed combatants in a field of combat would be identified by their allegiance. Any military power within the war zone that is not identified as a friendly would automatically be a threat. Whether or not actions will be take against this threat is a different question. However in this case Gervis and his men, they are armed and against Sheppard. Therefore they are the bad guys and they are a threat. Do you consider them the good guys and completely harmless?

They're not combatants and they weren't against Sheppard, they wanted to hand the plague survives to the Wraith, Shep just took it upon himself to interfere.


Actually, allied troops would murder civilians for much less. And they don't usually stop there. Even in wars as recent as "Operation Freedom", Canadian soldiers and civilians are killed because the US troopers "thought" they were the enemy. At times they simply opened fire despite not given the order.

The previous Iraq war, Operation Desert Storm also saw killing of civilians and allied soldiers.

In EVERY war, civilians are killed for no apparent reason. They are considered "collateral damages" and are rarely brought to light (unless you lost the war, then everyone knows the Holocaust).

Whether the military would do that sort of thing is beside the point, the point is it would be morally reprehensible to do so.


Stop living in your naive fantasy world of "good guys don't kill civilians". Good guys are the guys who won, no matter how many innocent people they killed.

Stop jumping to conclusions.

FallenAngelII
October 22nd, 2008, 08:47 AM
How about every modern war? You think allied troops would murder civilians for betraying their position to the enemy?
Iraqi war; U.S. soldiers fired at ambulances because "insurgents had been known to hide in ambulances".

Needles to say, many civilians were harmed because of this either by direct death or by the stalling of their arrival at medical facilities. Don't think soldiers in modern wars haven't done horrible things to civilians on the mere suspicion that they might be enemy fighters.

MIZA
October 22nd, 2008, 03:41 PM
yeah i think John had did a pretty good thing , what do you think that guy was going to do when he got out of jail "forget the whole thing" Nope ! so i believe John made the decision of him or us(them)?

Zamboni
October 22nd, 2008, 08:21 PM
No, they'd be your enemyWhat are you talking about? My enemy? I don't exist in the fictitious world of Stargate. Wraith are the enemies of the humans and vice versa. Wraith are the bad guys from the human's point of view and vice versa. What, you think the Wraith recognize themselves as the "bad guy"?


The police don't consider an armed civilian to be a militant, nor do the military. Besides, Shep and his team have no jurisdiction there, they have no right to make such distinctions.Well then why don't you stroll down a police station waving a gun? Let's see if they treat you like a harmless "civilian".

And if you think Shep shouldn't act in place where he has "no jurisdiction", then perhaps you should stop watching the show. Stargate has ALWAYS been about humans venturing out and staking their jurisdiction and values upon the GALACTIC SOCIETY.


They're not combatants and they weren't against Sheppardhttp://img508.imageshack.us/img508/166/testxs4.jpg
Yes... They're just civilized simple folk who like to point guns at people for fun.


How about every modern war? You think allied troops would murder civilians for betraying their position to the enemy?

Whether the military would do that sort of thing is beside the point
Then why did you bring it up? Do you just bring up points you think can help your argument, then say it's "beside the point" when you realize they don't?


Stop jumping to conclusions.That wasn't a conclusion. It was a suggestion. Judging the actions of other from some moral high ground without considering the situation and the availability of options is irresponsible.

jenks
October 22nd, 2008, 09:13 PM
What are you talking about? My enemy? I don't exist in the fictitious world of Stargate. Wraith are the enemies of the humans and vice versa. Wraith are the bad guys from the human's point of view and vice versa. What, you think the Wraith recognize themselves as the "bad guy"?

I doubt the Wraith would use such a crude distinction. You keep trying to use bad guy and enemy as if they mean the same thing, but they don't, I don't know how to make that any clearer. The word 'enemy' has no ethical connotation, 'bad guy' does.



Well then why don't you stroll down a police station waving a gun? Let's see if they treat you like a harmless "civilian".

I never said they would.


And if you think Shep shouldn't act in place where he has "no jurisdiction", then perhaps you should stop watching the show. Stargate has ALWAYS been about humans venturing out and staking their jurisdiction and values upon the GALACTIC SOCIETY.

Get some perspective, we're talking about the moral implication of what Shep is doing, it has nothing to do with what I do and don't want to see in the show. In fact I welcome character flaws like this, I just with they were acknowledged on the show in some way.


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/166/testxs4.jpg
Yes... They're just civilized simple folk who like to point guns at people for fun.

They have every right to point a gun at him, he's on their land interfering with he running of their society. I'm surprised you'd mention how civilized they are, given that Shep murders them in cold blood later in the episode...


Then why did you bring it up? Do you just bring up points you think can help your argument, then say it's "beside the point" when you realize they don't?

We're discussing the morality of Shep's actions, I gave a comparable hypothetical situation in order to convey how wrong what Shep did was. The point is obviously that, and not whether troops might actually do it, because that's irrelevant.


That wasn't a conclusion. It was a suggestion. Judging the actions of other from some moral high ground without considering the situation and the availability of options is irresponsible.

Why would you suggest that I stop living in a 'naive fantasy world' if you hadn't already come to the conclusion that I am?

Mitchell82
October 25th, 2008, 12:15 PM
I think it was pretty messed up of the team to use that dude(the one who tried to turn the people over to the wraith) to lure the wraith into a trap, and then blow him up.....even if the guy was guilty, he was still acting for what he thought was good for the village.....does anyone else think this was wrong?
Well it was kind of cruel and unusual punishment however sometimes you have to sacrifice a few lives in order to save others.