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View Full Version : Judge Shepard hands down his ruling: Guilty, Death by Execution



The6thRace
October 17th, 2008, 07:07 PM
For crying out loud, I think Shepard went too far in this episode. Those guys surrendered peacefully to him, and he just used them to trap the wraith after being told by the leader of the village that they should bring the wraith to the cave to capture the others.

Talk about morally ambiguous, and almost downright criminal of him. Sure, the other guys weren't saints, but he knew that sending them to that cave was pretty much a death sentence.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 07:14 PM
In his defense, something had to be done to draw those Wraith away from the Gate.

Do I agree with the method? No.

Could they have lured them to the mines in some other fashion? I don't know. It's easy to think on it now and judge him for that decision. Maybe the only way to lure them was by using people.

But then, and I know there will be some to say this, shouldn't it have been Sheppard or someone on his team disguised as a villager? What right did they have to condemn others to death? To be judge, jury, and executioner?

The only defense against that would be that we need our main cast to have a show.

That said, why couldn't it have been the chief councilor?

I realize that sacrifice may have been necessary. But I do not agree with making the choice of sacrifice for someone else.

prion
October 17th, 2008, 07:17 PM
For crying out loud, I think Shepard went too far in this episode. Those guys surrendered peacefully to him, and he just used them to trap the wraith after being told by the leader of the village that they should bring the wraith to the cave to capture the others.

Talk about morally ambiguous, and almost downright criminal of him. Sure, the other guys weren't saints, but he knew that sending them to that cave was pretty much a death sentence.

Ah, this is war, you know. You really think the wraith would pass on a free meal considering how many wraith are hungry??

gatechick
October 17th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Yeah I was kinda surprised at the method he used. usually they try not to go that kind of route. But then they are in a life or death situation, and a decision had to be made, they didn't have time to debate the morality of their decision.

Earthgate Ricky
October 17th, 2008, 07:22 PM
For crying out loud, I think Shepard went too far in this episode. Those guys surrendered peacefully to him, and he just used them to trap the wraith after being told by the leader of the village that they should bring the wraith to the cave to capture the others.

Talk about morally ambiguous, and almost downright criminal of him. Sure, the other guys weren't saints, but he knew that sending them to that cave was pretty much a death sentence.

Back to "Rising" ( first SA episode) John shot and killed Sumner as First Wraith Queen feed on him. which lead judges to believe that John committed a murder of Sumner. but that's not true, John knew that Sumner wanted him to kill him rather than get drained to death by the queen.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 07:25 PM
Back to "Rising" ( first SA episode) John shot and killed Sumner as First Wraith Queen feed on him. which lead judges to believe that John committed a murder of Sumner. but that's not true, John knew that Sumner wanted him to kill him rather than get drained to death by the queen.

How does that relate to this? That was a mercy kill. Sumner wanted to die.

Those men didn't want to die. They also had no idea they were going to their deaths - that they were going to be sacrificed to save the others.

I realize it may have been necessary from a utilitarian standpoint, but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Makes me glad that the next episode is Inquisition.

The6thRace
October 17th, 2008, 07:32 PM
The main thing that irks me is that the village leader specifically told them to bring the wraith to the cave. In other words, they are now following the orders of their village leader. And while the leader played a part in this, it was without a doubt Sheppard who planned it out. They were deliberately misled and USED and were murdered by John Sheppard. They were criminals who never had a trial. Criminals who surrendered without resistance. And Sheppard murdered them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting worked up over this or anything, its just a television show. I just hope people see the moral implications of this. I wonder how many people will try to justify Sheppards criminal actions.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting worked up over this or anything, its just a television show. I just hope people see the moral implications of this. I wonder how many people will try to justify Sheppards criminal actions.

Sigh...

I'm not justifying his actions, so don't get me wrong on that front, but there are more shades to this than just black and white.

If Sheppard hadn't done something, then chances are everyone would have died.

gatechick
October 17th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Not to justify, but they would probably have died anyway had they not done something.

prion
October 17th, 2008, 07:36 PM
The main thing that irks me is that the village leader specifically told them to bring the wraith to the cave. In other words, they are now following the orders of their village leader. And while the leader played a part in this, it was without a doubt Sheppard who planned it out. They were deliberately misled and USED and were murdered by John Sheppard. They were criminals who never had a trial. Criminals who surrendered without resistance. And Sheppard murdered them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting worked up over this or anything, its just a television show. I just hope people see the moral implications of this. I wonder how many people will try to justify Sheppards criminal actions.

Oh, I'm pretty sure the village leader knew precisely what he was getting into and that there could be a death involved. Unfortunately the villager (Jervis?) fell for the bait. If he hadn't done that, he wouldn't have died. I think Jervis (and were there others?) are called, well, 'collateral damage.' :(

dasNdanger
October 17th, 2008, 08:04 PM
As I've said MANY times before, the humans are no better than Wraith - only, Wraith must 'feed in order to live'. Big difference between killing someone because you can, and killing because you have to.

Sheppard is also responsible for the blood on the hands of the village's leader, poor guy...you could see it in his eyes...his guilt will get the better of him.

I found this to be a very morally questionable episode, on many levels.


das

Earthgate Ricky
October 17th, 2008, 08:20 PM
As I've said MANY times before, the humans are no better than Wraith - only, Wraith must 'feed in order to live'. Big difference between killing someone because you can, and killing because you have to.

Sheppard is also responsible for the blood in the hands of the village's leader, poor guy...you could see it in his eyes...his guilt will get the better of him.

I found this to be a very morally questionable episode, on many levels.


das


Okay. Okay. Okay
We better wait until next Friday.

dasNdanger
October 17th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Okay. Okay. Okay
We better wait until next Friday.

Oh, you KNOW he's going to be forgiven for everything next week! Held accountable? A HUMAN?? NEVAH!!

What should happen next week will not happen, I am sure of it. I think it will be a very disappointing ep.

das

dasNdanger
October 17th, 2008, 08:40 PM
What is starting to really disturb me is how many people think it was cool how Sheppard murdered those villagers in the explosion - villagers who were only doing what they thought was right to protect their families. I am really disturbed by this. We're those rogue villagers right? I cannot say - I believe they acted out of fear, not out of hatred. I just cannot believe that Sheppard just murdered them....


das

the fifth man
October 17th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Actually, I think next week's episode should be very interesting. We will get to see just how the people of Pegasus feel about our Atlantis team.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 08:42 PM
What is starting to really disturb me is how many people think it was cool how Sheppard murdered those villagers in the explosion - villagers who were only doing what they thought was right to protect their families. I am really disturbed by this. We're those rogue villagers right? I cannot say - I believe they acted out of fear, not out of hatred. I just cannot believe that Sheppard just murdered them....


Cool? Who has said it was cool?

Sheppard made a call to save the villagers. Was he supposed to let everyone die?

The6thRace
October 17th, 2008, 08:43 PM
It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

The6thRace
October 17th, 2008, 08:47 PM
It may very well be that Sheppard has choosen the lesser of two evils. But do the ends justify the means? After all the past experiences, I'm especially reminded of that episode where Sheppard helped to free a bunch of criminals condemned to the island as 'wraith food'. Although many weren't criminals, Sheppard made a choice that ultimately resulted in some people getting saved, and some people dying. Same scenario here, just the lesser of two evils once again. Its just that this time, Sheppard himself 'pulled the trigger', not the wraith.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 09:07 PM
It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

Not really so new.

In Miller's Crossing, Sheppard talks Wallace into sacrificing himself to Todd so that Todd could feed and have the energy to save Jeannie.

The6thRace
October 17th, 2008, 09:12 PM
Guess I never really considered that till now. Sheppard is becoming a real threat.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 09:16 PM
Guess I never really considered that till now. Sheppard is becoming a real threat.

Sheppard is a military man entrenched in a war. I may not agree with some of the actions taken by the Atlanteans, but wartime is hardly the time and place to hold super fast to a strictly black and white moral code.

And I don't say this to suggest that war makes everyone immoral, but I do mean to say that it becomes a lot harder to decided whom to save and when to save them when you're faced with hundreds of lives begging for safety from every direction.

Easy, it is not.

dasNdanger
October 17th, 2008, 09:20 PM
Not really so new.

In Miller's Crossing, Sheppard talks Wallace into sacrificing himself to Todd so that Todd could feed and have the energy to save Jeannie.

That was much different - he explained the situation to Wallace, and Wallace decided for himself to sacrifice his life for the greater good. Sure, Sheppard laid the guilt treatment on him, but in the end, it WAS Wallace's decision.

In this episode, Sheppard lured them into a trap, and blew them up. Blew up men who thought they were doing the right thing to save their families. I call that a terrorist.

das

The6thRace
October 17th, 2008, 09:24 PM
Looking at his actions from afar, I guess I may seem like a 'Mister Woolsey', judging the original SG-1 team of their actions without having actually experienced anything for myself. I'm sure I'd react much worse in that kind of situation simply out of fear or necessity to survive. Things can't always go smoothly. But the fact remains, Sheppards actions are well past anything the original SG-1 team did (they simply defied orders or copped an attitude at times).

It still doesn't change the fact though that his actions are morally wrong, despite whatever justification. And we're not talking about some obscure moral issue here, he has permanently ended the lives of several people purposely. People who while, some may say they deserved, and may be out of necessity, still had the right to live just like any others. They needed to pay for their crimes, but not like that.

TragicComedy
October 17th, 2008, 09:53 PM
I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else has written here. Just bringing out a point no one else has mentioned.

Teyla and Ronon both went along with this plan without raising a single objection that I recall. So Sheppard came up with the idea and he pulled the trigger, but Teyla and Ronon have to live with that on their conscience just as much as he does.

DragonLadyK
October 17th, 2008, 09:56 PM
As I've said MANY times before, the humans are no better than Wraith - only, Wraith must 'feed in order to live'. Big difference between killing someone because you can, and killing because you have to.

Sheppard is also responsible for the blood on the hands of the village's leader, poor guy...you could see it in his eyes...his guilt will get the better of him.

I found this to be a very morally questionable episode, on many levels.


I know enough Vets to know that that will haunt Sheppard forever, even if he'd rather die than show it perhaps. Furthermore, I know enough Vets to know that for Sheppard, after having been in a constant war-zone for five years, not to have put the needs of the many above the needs of the few and accepted the collateral damage would have been a laughable fantasy.

War isn't fair, it isn't pretty, people die even though they never asked for it -- that's why Sheridan said that war "is all Hell." It's inherently morally questionable -- that's why it should be avoided.

And before you put the Wraith on a pedestal, remember that not once in the 10,000 years since the end of the war have we seen the Wraith make any attempt to get off sentient food, much less succeed. Even Todd admits that after the Lanteans came up with a peaceful resolution to the war -- making it so Wraith no longer have to "kill to live" -- the general Wraith population possibly won't accept it.

The Wraith are happy to eat off humans, perfectly content to feed off food that can talk back -- indeed, it is a key portion of their identity. There are no vegitarian Wraith, no PETH.

That makes them worse than the Lanteans, because the Lanteans would be fine with peace if the Wraith would back off (and that includes not switching up feeding for slavery).

Dragonlady

TragicComedy
October 17th, 2008, 10:04 PM
And another thing - you become a judge anytime you take a life. Wraith, human, Jaffa, whatever. In any war, you choose a side and you fight against those who oppose you. You may not know them from Adam but they are your enemy for whatever reason.

In SG-1's case, how many Jaffa did they kill that might have been reasoned with and might have become part of the Free Jaffa Nation?

Wraith feed to live. It's a necessity. Yet they are killed for being who they are.

Sheppard had chosen a side. To protect those people at all costs. Jarvis/Jervis whatever went against that plan. Did he deserve a trial? Yes. Did he willingly lead the Wraith to kill innocent people? Yes. You may look at Jervis' death as innocent because he wasn't aware what he was walking into, but neither would the people have been had they been in the cave like Jervis thought.

Still not saying that what Sheppard did was morally correct, but really, when it comes down to it - not a lot of it ever is.

dasNdanger
October 17th, 2008, 10:23 PM
I know enough Vets to know that that will haunt Sheppard forever, even if he'd rather die than show it perhaps. Furthermore, I know enough Vets to know that for Sheppard, after having been in a constant war-zone for five years, not to have put the needs of the many above the needs of the few and accepted the collateral damage would have been a laughable fantasy.

War isn't fair, it isn't pretty, people die even though they never asked for it -- that's why Sheridan said that war "is all Hell." It's inherently morally questionable -- that's why it should be avoided.

And before you put the Wraith on a pedestal, remember that not once in the 10,000 years since the end of the war have we seen the Wraith make any attempt to get off sentient food, much less succeed. Even Todd admits that after the Lanteans came up with a peaceful resolution to the war -- making it so Wraith no longer have to "kill to live" -- the general Wraith population possibly won't accept it.

The Wraith are happy to eat off humans, perfectly content to feed off food that can talk back -- indeed, it is a key portion of their identity. There are no vegitarian Wraith, no PETH.

That makes them worse than the Lanteans, because the Lanteans would be fine with peace if the Wraith would back off (and that includes not switching up feeding for slavery).

Dragonlady

Have you ever known starvation? It's very hard to say how you would feel when you REALLY need to eat in order to live. We know of humans resorting to cannibalism - even to eating their own CHILDREN - in order to survive.

So, no - what the Wraith do is not worse than the Lanteans. They are like tigers or sharks - a predatory species that must prey on another to survive. The Lanteans, on the other hand, have a choice - like, for one, they can go back home to earth and let the Wraith live, and feed, in peace.

@ TragicComedy - that's because Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith. They kill Wraith out of hate and prejudice. Nice qualities, eh? Even Queen Teyla took advantage of her position to kill Wraith out of hatred right before Todd's eyes, knowing he could do nothing to stop her. The humans are driven by hate - the Wraith by a need to feed.

Perhaps this is why the Wraith often come across as innocent to me (innocent, as in naive...not as in without guilt). They are just doing what nature dictates, they are feeding to survive. On the other hand, humans - out of sheer hatred for the species - are constantly looking for ways to kill them.

Maybe this is what disturbs me the most - Wraith killing for food is 'unjustified' according to this show, while humans killing out of hate and prejudice is justified, because they're the heroes.

das

TragicComedy
October 17th, 2008, 10:44 PM
Okay. Woah, das. I wasn't actually talking about the Wraith with Teyla and Ronon. I was talking about the humans they killed. But okay.

I can understand the whole maybe the Wraith aren't wholly evil thing and the whole identity crisis if they were to go along with Keller's gene therapy but I think that's a discussion for another board.

Pandora's_Box
October 17th, 2008, 10:58 PM
Have you ever known starvation? It's very hard to say how you would feel when you REALLY need to eat in order to live. We know of humans resorting to cannibalism - even to eating their own CHILDREN - in order to survive.

That? Was a pleasant image. Thank you for that.



So, no - what the Wraith do is not worse than the Lanteans. They are like tigers or sharks - a predatory species that must prey on another to survive. The Lanteans, on the other hand, have a choice - like, for one, they can go back home to earth and let the Wraith live, and feed, in peace.

And cull and kill and feed; terrorize countless generations of humans into living in fear. Forced to live (for the most part) as nomadic tribes teaching their children how to protect themselves at all hours of the day, to always be on guard and on the lookout for Wrath darts.

Taking Runners, forcing these people to run for their lives; hunted for sport and never able to rejoin humanity for fear of bringing certain death upon them.

Destroying most civilizations before they have the chance to develop technologies that could help prolong life, eliminate diseases similar to those we've all but wiped out on Earth because we've had the chance to.

Sounds like brilliant fun! I want to live there.



@ TragicComedy - that's because Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith. They kill Wraith out of hate and prejudice. Nice qualities, eh? Even Queen Teyla took advantage of her position to kill Wraith out of hatred right before Todd's eyes, knowing he could do nothing to stop her. The humans are driven by hate - the Wraith by a need to feed.

And you know what both species are ultimately driven by? The need for survival.

Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith, not because they're people consumed by evil and malicious thoughts, but because of everything they have suffered at the hands of the Wraith.

Does no one think it's sad that growing to die of old age is such a rare occurrence that the Athosians have a special ceremony to commemorate it?

Ronon's entire civilization (or near enough) was wiped out because they dared to fight for their right to live free of the Wraith? Free from a life lived in fear?



Perhaps this is why the Wraith often come across as innocent to me (innocent, as in naive...not as in without guilt). They are just doing what nature dictates, they are feeding to survive. On the other hand, humans - out of sheer hatred for the species - are constantly looking for ways to kill them.

Over 10 000 years they had to find a solution and nada. Zip. Zilch.

The only other instance of someone attempting to find an alternate food source (and he did this not out of hate and prejudice, but out of love) was also a human.

The Wraith have done nothing to attempt to discover a universally acceptable solution to this problem. And they have to know it is a problem because the humans from Earth are not the first humans to fight them over this.

The Wraith simply refused to change. And killed everyone that stood in their way.



Maybe this is what disturbs me the most - Wraith killing for food is 'unjustified' according to this show, while humans killing out of hate and prejudice is justified, because they're the heroes.


We humans were created, have evolved, what ever manner of creation you subscribe to, with the physiology determining that we eat meat.

Our body acquires certain minerals, vitamins, proteins, from this meat that it can get from nowhere else. And yet, there are some of us that have forgone eating meat for whatever reason. Some claim they just don't like it. Others refuse because of the horrible conditions of some animals farms.

The point is, if we had the decency to defeat our physiology, why not the Wraith?

Ruffles
October 17th, 2008, 11:08 PM
The main thing that irks me is that the village leader specifically told them to bring the wraith to the cave. In other words, they are now following the orders of their village leader. And while the leader played a part in this, it was without a doubt Sheppard who planned it out. They were deliberately misled and USED and were murdered by John Sheppard. They were criminals who never had a trial. Criminals who surrendered without resistance. And Sheppard murdered them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting worked up over this or anything, its just a television show. I just hope people see the moral implications of this. I wonder how many people will try to justify Sheppards criminal actions.

Sheppard used their nature against them. These men had decided to hand over innocents to the aggressors to protect themselves. Where have I seen that before? Oh, yeah. Nazi Germany.

The Wraith were going to kill/experiment on the Balarians. Jervis and his men were going to not just turn their backs and let it happen but were going to hand them over willingly.

Sheppard laid out his plan, and the village leader agreed. He DID NOT force those men to do anything. The leader left the keys and walked away. Jervis could have easily taken his family to the mines or hidden in the woods or done any number of things including telling the Wraith where the mines were and not gone in.

Did Sheppard knowingly kill those men? Yes. Was there another choice? I don't know. But don't make them out to be innocent victims in this. They were collaborating with Wraith.


That was much different - he explained the situation to Wallace, and Wallace decided for himself to sacrifice his life for the greater good. Sure, Sheppard laid the guilt treatment on him, but in the end, it WAS Wallace's decision.

In this episode, Sheppard lured them into a trap, and blew them up. Blew up men who thought they were doing the right thing to save their families. I call that a terrorist.

das

Lured? I didn't see Sheppard "luring" anyone. He bet on their cowardice and fear, and he was right. Trying to save their families? Saving their families would have consisted of protecting them by hiding from the Wraith, escaping somehow, not handing over people to be executed.

aboleyn24
October 17th, 2008, 11:20 PM
Sheppard used their nature against them. These men had decided to hand over innocents to the aggressors to protect themselves. Where have I seen that before? Oh, yeah. Nazi Germany.

The Wraith were going to kill/experiment on the Balarians. Jervis and his men were going to not just turn their backs and let it happen but were going to hand them over willingly.

Sheppard laid out his plan, and the village leader agreed. He DID NOT force those men to do anything. The leader left the keys and walked away. Jervis could have easily taken his family to the mines or hidden in the woods or done any number of things including telling the Wraith where the mines were and not gone in.

Did Sheppard knowingly kill those men? Yes. Was there another choice? I don't know. But don't make them out to be innocent victims in this. They were collaborating with Wraith.



Lured? I didn't see Sheppard "luring" anyone. He bet on their cowardice and fear, and he was right. Trying to save their families? Saving their families would have consisted of protecting them by hiding from the Wraith, escaping somehow, not handing over people to be executed.

I totally agree with this post. Those men still had a choice. Yes, they were being manipulated, but they still could have made a different decision than leading the Wraith to a place where a bunch of sick refugees were waiting helplessly. Sheppard seems to be taking the major heat for a plan that others willingly agreed too.

How often have we seen humans walk away from dealing with the Wraith? They usually wind up dead even if they give them what they want so I think those men would have died any way even if the cave were not rigged to blow up. I suppose we will never know though.

keeperofthehive
October 17th, 2008, 11:42 PM
Well, this was morally sticky, wasn't it?

Consider:
The Wraith Queen is both literally and figuratively the mother of her hive, so this is what makes her unstoppable: her children are hungry and threatened. This also contributes to the Wraith mentality of " My hive and my hive alone" as Gabriel put it for us. The most dangerous creature imaginable, as they say: a mother whose offspring are threatened.:samanime15:

The ideal human position (i repeat: the ideal) given by human philosophies is to embrace and include all humans as family. However, on a realistic and practical level we feel more responsible to our biological relatives, then our community, then our countrymen, etc. , than to those we perceive as "outsiders."

If we had to choose between the lives of our own children and strangers, what would we do? (There was no way to know if the Wraith would keep their promise or not; some do and some don't, so that is not a legitimate arguement.)

The correctness (and even effectiveness) of Jarvis' position can be argued at length, but does it really qualify as criminal?

fumblesmcstupid
October 18th, 2008, 12:44 AM
I think that a bunch of men who have no problem turning over refugees to the Wraith get what they deserve.

Is Sheppard and the leader guy going to loose sleep over what they did? Yes! Why? Because they are both men who try to look out for everyone. In this case they chose to look at the bigger picture. 10 or 15 men in exchange for 600 or so people escaping to live another day.

The need of the many out weigh the need of the few.

What did Jervis ask the leader "Is this going to mess with your conscience?" or something to that effect. The leader said "let me deal with it " or something to that effect. (No DVR or photographic memory)

If you look at Sheppard and the Leaders faces after the mine went KABOOM you can see what that plan cost them both!

Remember in Sateda what happened to the village that turned over Ronon? The Wraith killed them all.

The Wriath don't keep their word...EVER!

Todd is a Wraith that was made to be a sympathetic character in Common Ground "oh poor guy" we felt sorry for him at first because he was helping Sheppard escape.

"All bets are off"

Teyla in "Michael" "They are Wraith"

Yes I get a kick out of Todd! am I going to cry if they kill him?? Uh no!

The Wraith are the "Bad Guys"

Wraith Worshipers are bad!!

Any one who makes a deal with the Wraith are stupid and naive.

Hello "Allies" anyone? We got what we deserved. We were stupid enough to make a deal with the Wraith and they stabbed us in the back.... before we could stab "Them" in the back!

You guys can boo hoo all you want over the lives of those men in the mine. They were scum, crap you scrape off you shoe!

Two good men A leader and A soldier will second guess their decision for the rest of their lives.

Detox
October 18th, 2008, 01:06 AM
Morality is culturally based and more importantly, it is a luxury in the Pegasus Galaxy.

What Sheppard did may be immoral, but it's definitely not a black and white issue. It is most certainly a gray area.

Brain_Child
October 18th, 2008, 01:38 AM
You guys are all "glass is half empty" people.

Sheppard killed a dozen or so men. yep, he did, no doubt about it

Sheppard saved almost 700 hundred people, yep, he did that too.

if you think about the fact that he saved hundreds of lives, and not that he killed a mere few, you can begin to see it was the best option. Other methods would not have guaranteed the saving of 700 lives.

bluealien
October 18th, 2008, 04:32 AM
What is starting to really disturb me is how many people think it was cool how Sheppard murdered those villagers in the explosion - villagers who were only doing what they thought was right to protect their families. I am really disturbed by this. We're those rogue villagers right? I cannot say - I believe they acted out of fear, not out of hatred. I just cannot believe that Sheppard just murdered them....


das

They went to the cave intent on handing over other innocent villagers to the Wraith who would have killed them, that makes them murderers in my eyes, so they made their own choice. If they had not taken the bait to sacrifice innocent villagers they wouldnt have gotten blown up.

MathiasE
October 18th, 2008, 04:45 AM
Morally their decision was not correct, but strategically it was most likely the only way to ensure that everyone got out ok, the villagers can only be thankful that the people from the expedition were strong enough to actually even concider killing 10-20 people to save 700 rather than trying to make deals with the wraith which would have most likely gone very wrong.

Personally i'd say that the moment they had handed over all the hoffan-infected people the rest would be culled since they would be a "pure" food source.

Edit: as for the next episode, isn't that pretty much a clipshow? Never gave much thought into those episodes since 3/4 of them is stuff you've already seen.

MCH
October 18th, 2008, 05:05 AM
I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else has written here. Just bringing out a point no one else has mentioned.

Teyla and Ronon both went along with this plan without raising a single objection that I recall. So Sheppard came up with the idea and he pulled the trigger, but Teyla and Ronon have to live with that on their conscience just as much as he does.


Maybe

next week epsiode is the pay off for Shepherd decision and Teyla and Ronan acceptance of it.

OK not a good decision but the situation was fast moving

as a soldier he can only make a decision right or wrong on the information he had before him.

That's part of SGA problem they just seem to react to a situation and have to make it up as they go along.

In a way what happened with Shepherd weather he is right or wrong in what he did prefectly illustraes the so called "fog of war" he didn't know the whole picture involving the villagers and the Wraith.

One other thing. I'm just want to point out 3 things


It's was not ok for the decision Shepherd had to make.

But how wrong is it, if the Wraith had just nuked the whole planet? They didn't cos they need somthing off the planet

Or how wrong was the villagers action, the betrayal/double cross business they did it to save their people?




Tricky call for actions of everyone in this episode, survivual of all and that at the end of the day is what drives us all. The need to feed and the need to survive other need to feed will make people take morially ambiguous decisions.

I also think that when an episode engenders this amount of discussion on the right or wrong of a situation, that's good because it makes us look at other's action. It also reminds off of past action that have happened here eg World War 2.

MCH

EDIT the word AMBIGUITY if you break it down Ambi and GUITY. The last part reminds me of the word guilty.-I'm dyslexic so that just my personal takae on this word.

Heaven
October 18th, 2008, 05:09 AM
forgive me if I'm wrong cause I haven't had a chance to watch the ep yet
but from what I understand the ones who died basically betrayed the others.
well in most human cultures treason is punishable by death.

The6thRace
October 18th, 2008, 05:33 AM
I will gladly concede the point that Sheppards decision was more right then wrong. There didn't seem to be another option at the time, besides possibly self-sacrifice. He himself could have went to the wraith posing as a villager and lured them to the cave. But since there were half a dozen men available who were frightened enough by the wraith to want to save their families by turning in some strangers they had just taken in, the situation could be resolved a different way.

Those guys weren't entirely true criminals, they were just scared people in a bad situation that the wraith put them in. I'm sure they had families and people they also wanted to protect. Even though they were naive enough to start turning the refugees over to the wraith, we still cannot possibly brand them as 'traitors'. If anything, they were more loyal then anyone, wanting to protect the village and people they've known all their life - families, friends.

Without discrimination, Sheppard used them and put them in a situation where they would not possibly survive, a mine filled with C4. The action resulted in saving the lives of 600 people. But you also condemned people who didn't entirely deserve to die, despite some people here thinking they are outright traitors.

The6thRace
October 18th, 2008, 05:37 AM
I will gladly concede the point that Sheppards decision was more right then wrong. There didn't seem to be another option at the time, besides possibly self-sacrifice. He himself could have went to the wraith posing as a villager and lured them to the cave. But since there were half a dozen men available who were frightened enough by the wraith to want to save their families by turning in some strangers they had just taken in, the situation could be resolved a different way.

Those guys weren't entirely true criminals, they were just scared people in a bad situation that the wraith put them in. I'm sure they had families and people they also wanted to protect. Even though they were naive enough to start turning the refugees over to the wraith, we still cannot possibly brand them as 'traitors'. If anything, they were more loyal then anyone, wanting to protect the village and people they've known all their life - families, friends - by any means necessary. What makes them unlike Sheppard, who simply chose to sacrifice a different group of people?

Without discrimination, Sheppard used them and put them in a situation where they would not possibly survive, a mine filled with C4. The action resulted in saving the lives of 600 people. But you also condemned people who didn't entirely deserve to die, despite some people here thinking they are outright traitors.

Nitegate
October 18th, 2008, 05:44 AM
this episode makes me like John Sheppard even more, those guys had it coming, they were working with the wraith, sounds like wraith human worshipors who betrayed their village.

JackHarkness_Hot
October 18th, 2008, 05:55 AM
IMO, I didn't like it but Sheppard convinced the leader of the village to fall through with the plan and there was no other choice, he had to draw attention from the gate.

So I can see why he did it but it doesn't mean I support it in anyway. Hopefully, this will somehow scar Sheppard in later episodes like having flashbacks of this incident and he learns something out of it.

MCH
October 18th, 2008, 05:58 AM
this episode makes me like John Sheppard even more, those guys had it coming, they were working with the wraith, sounds like wraith human worshipors who betrayed their village.

There is much that in hindsight appears wrong on both sides, but in the heat of battle Atlantis where reacting to the gravity of the situation between the Wraith and the Villagers and Atlantis was in the middle of this.

Atlantis had to act as the Outsider would not have been there if Atlantis had not requested the people of that planet to take them in originally. Therefor asfar as Shepherd was concerned he had to act as Atlantis original request for santatury caused the Wraith to come here in the first place.

As I have said before

One man's hero is another man's terrorist.

MCH

JackHarkness_Hot
October 18th, 2008, 06:04 AM
As I have said before

One man's hero is another man's terrorist.

That's deep stuff and imo, how appropriate to the real life situation in the Middle-East.

It's something Weir (if she was still on SGA) would debate with Sheppard I reckon.

MCH
October 18th, 2008, 06:10 AM
That's deep stuff and imo, how appropriate to the real life situation in the Middle-East.

It's something Weir (if she was still on SGA) would debate with Sheppard I reckon.

Sorry it was not meaning to be deep, but as you say "how appropriate to the real life situation in the Middle-East."

Yes a real shame that Weir couldn't look at the situation with Shepherd.

I wonder what Woolsey said when the team returned to Atlantis and gave their mission report.
Would he stick to the IOC line or has he finally woken up to the fact as Weir did that war is very messey and has not easy right or wrong answers.

MCH

JackHarkness_Hot
October 18th, 2008, 06:27 AM
With Woolsey, chances are he'll prag along saying how Sheppard don't have the authority to do what he did but over time just let the incident drop. Woolsey is just that, he's imitates leadership but rarely have the passion in him to do what needs to be done and hides behind his rules and regulations as his safety buffer. IMO that is.

Wayston
October 18th, 2008, 08:12 AM
Clearly this solution was intended to be controversial. They could have tried to write a scenario where the 4 humans remain outside or are put back into lock up or something.

What this episode illustrates well is that sometimes there are situations where there just aren't any decisions that will lead to a totally perfect outcome.

The people that were sacrificed still had a choice: they could have done everything other than return to the wraith. As has been pointed out the wraith would never keep their promise. The entire reason for their promise was to weed out the bad apples in their food supply anyway. Their claim that "we have no reason for being here otherwise" is simply ludicrous and weeding the people out who fell for it is just good common sense. Not to mention these people essentially murdered an entire group of refugees, the penalty of which in many societies is of course death... so why not "make their deaths count?"

Although one could take the high ground and claim bla bla bla it's still bad - there were no better outcomes. Don't blame the person making the least bad decision, blame the people (ie the wraith and the 4 sacrificed individuals themselves) who created it in the first place.

By the way I'm surprised that noone is shocked on how John reacted to Rodney and Becket. He put his two team members into extreme danger without an even remote possibility to rescue them. Showing that John isn't discriminatory in who he sacrifices...

The6thRace
October 18th, 2008, 08:26 AM
I think Sheppard would have tried to go back for Rodney/Beckett in a puddle jumper. The difference between them and the villagers who were sacrificed, is that Rodney/Beckett signed on for the Atlantis expedition, and know the risks of StarGate travel. If they had to be 'sacrificed' to save 600 people, it would have been more acceptable given the fact that they chose to accept the risks associated with their occupations.

bluealien
October 18th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Clearly this solution was intended to be controversial. They could have tried to write a scenario where the 4 humans remain outside or are put back into lock up or something.

What this episode illustrates well is that sometimes there are situations where there just aren't any decisions that will lead to a totally perfect outcome.

The people that were sacrificed still had a choice: they could have done everything other than return to the wraith. As has been pointed out the wraith would never keep their promise. The entire reason for their promise was to weed out the bad apples in their food supply anyway. Their claim that "we have no reason for being here otherwise" is simply ludicrous and weeding the people out who fell for it is just good common sense. Not to mention these people essentially murdered an entire group of refugees, the penalty of which in many societies is of course death... so why not "make their deaths count?"

Although one could take the high ground and claim bla bla bla it's still bad - there were no better outcomes. Don't blame the person making the least bad decision, blame the people (ie the wraith and the 4 sacrificed individuals themselves) who created it in the first place.

By the way I'm surprised that noone is shocked on how John reacted to Rodney and Becket. He put his two team members into extreme danger without an even remote possibility to rescue them. Showing that John isn't discriminatory in who he sacrifices...


Do you mean the part where he asks him to disable the weapons. If the Hive Ship opened fire hundreds of people would have been killed but it was Rodney's decsions to go ahead and try and disable the weapons... both Rodney and Beckett have their own free will and no one forced them to do anything. They are all willing to put their lives in danger to save others and this is what both Beckett and Rodney did, so how can Sheppard be responsible..

wintering
October 18th, 2008, 10:56 AM
One of the things that had always bothered me about SGA in general is the way that they handle moral questions like this.

The decision to "sacrifice" some of the villagers to take out the wraith is questionable at best, if not downright immoral. And the way Sheppard said "nice job" to the village leader in that scene where they were getting everyone through the gate made me feel so uneasy. Why not "I'm sorry," or "it had to be done," or "this is a difficult situation"?

Sheppard's code of ethics seems simply to be let the ends justify the means.

What I really wish we got to see in this episode was just one scene of Sheppard making that decision. I wanted to see him talk to the villager leader to convince him of the plan. Or a scene at the end of the episode, when he is debriefing Woolsey and comment on the difficulty of the situation. He must know of the moral implications, but we never see Sheppard struggle with them. If we got that scene, I think we would be much more sympathetic.

(One of the things I actually liked about the first season was how they handled the Sumner murder--or just the fact that they even handled it at all. We got to see Sheppard struggle with it and show that the decision haunts him every day.)

For me, the thing with Sheppard is that, despite the fact he is the lead of the show, he is one of the most under-developed character of the series. There is no change, no inner turmoil. In almost all the episodes, we get a static character who has no regard for the depth of his decisions.

I really hope Inquisition will make up for this.

Pegasus_SGA
October 18th, 2008, 11:54 AM
For crying out loud, I think Shepard went too far in this episode. Those guys surrendered peacefully to him, and he just used them to trap the wraith after being told by the leader of the village that they should bring the wraith to the cave to capture the others.

Talk about morally ambiguous, and almost downright criminal of him. Sure, the other guys weren't saints, but he knew that sending them to that cave was pretty much a death sentence.

Hang on a second, it was the leader of the village that let the men go into the mine and get the villagers... how is that Sheppard's fault? :lol: The leader let Jarvis go, gave them the keys and told them to go find the villagers then hand them over to the Wraith. So Sheppard moved them out of the mines to a place of safety... so how is Shep a murderer, because he killed the wraith. Did he even know that the villagers were there? I don't think so. :lol: If you hear Sheppard after he blows the C4 he said that should have sorted the wraith out. He didn't say, great the wraith and the collaborators are dead, did he? So criminal? I think not. If anyone led Jarvis and his men to their death it was the leader of the village, not Sheppard. Sorry. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore morality issues in Stargate a la Miller's crossing, but the ending to Millers Crossing and this wasn't even close to competing with each other on the morality scale.

The6thRace
October 18th, 2008, 12:01 PM
Hang on a second, it was the leader of the village that let the men go into the mine and get the villagers... how is that Sheppard's fault? :lol: The leader let Jarvis go, gave them the keys and told them to go find the villagers then hand them over to the Wraith. So Sheppard moved them out of the mines to a place of safety... so how is Shep a murderer, because he killed the wraith. Did he even know that the villagers were there? I don't think so. :lol: If you hear Sheppard after he blows the C4 he said that should have sorted the wraith out. He didn't say, great the wraith and the collaborators are dead, did he? So criminal? I think not. If anyone led Jarvis and his men to their death it was the leader of the village, not Sheppard. Sorry. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore morality issues in Stargate a la Miller's crossing, but the ending to Millers Crossing and this wasn't even close to competing with each other on the morality scale.

There is no way Sheppard wasn't involved with the plan. What, did he just put C4 in the mine and hope to get lucky? And do you think that village leader was the type to come up with that kind of plan of luring them to be detonated? How would he even know Sheppard carried a device to cause an explosion? No, he was definitely involved, and with the tactics used, the plan definitely came from a military mind, not a community leader.

wintering
October 18th, 2008, 12:13 PM
There is no way Sheppard wasn't involved with the plan. What, did he just put C4 in the mine and hope to get lucky? And do you think that village leader was the type to come up with that kind of plan of luring them to be detonated? How would he even know Sheppard carried a device to cause an explosion? No, he was definitely involved, and with the tactics used, the plan definitely came from a military mind, not a community leader.

I agree. It was definitely Sheppard's plan; he knew exactly who was down in the mine. The village leader went along with it because it was the only thing he could do to save his people, but he was obviously troubled by his actions in sacrificing his follow villagers--the look on his face as the mine exploded was gut wrenching.

I still can't get over the "nice job" line from Sheppard. It just makes the whole situation worse.

Lucylee
October 18th, 2008, 12:31 PM
I still can't get over the "nice job" line from Sheppard. It just makes the whole situation worse.

I don't get where people think Shep should be this nice fluffy-bunny, peacenik type character, (although he has a certain dorkiness that is very appealing in non-military settings).
However, when he needs to, and in order to protect his Team, he has been shown to be quite cold and ruthless in the past in order to achieve his objectives. I'm not sure why he would regret killing wraith or those he felt were aiding and abetting them.
Kind of like the name sounds, he is kind of like a German Shepherd, they are all sweet and good with the kiddies in normal situations, but I'd hate to come in between one and the child he felt he needed to protect.

Pegasus_SGA
October 18th, 2008, 12:31 PM
There is no way Sheppard wasn't involved with the plan. What, did he just put C4 in the mine and hope to get lucky? And do you think that village leader was the type to come up with that kind of plan of luring them to be detonated? How would he even know Sheppard carried a device to cause an explosion? No, he was definitely involved, and with the tactics used, the plan definitely came from a military mind, not a community leader.

Show me something that suggests he was. :lol: From what we saw on screen he wasn't. Now personally I don't think the elder realised that Sheppard was planning to blow up the mine, otherwise I get the impression he wouldn't have sent his people in. And while Sheppard's interaction with Jarvis may suggest that he planned on killing him and his men, I don't think that's the case. Because if it was, why not kill them then and there when they draw weapons on each other? It doesn't make sense that he would get the elder to lure the men into the mine just to kill them.

The reason he put the c4 in the mine was to catch the wraith, they made it perfectly clear that if the outsiders weren't given to them, then they'd kill them all. We know that there were search parties going on, this was just an extension of that.

As far as the village leader is concerned it wasn't a case of a mastermind plan at all, it was a case of the leader telling Jarvis and his men to find the villagers in the mine and bring them down. Nothing mastermind about it. And while they were there they got caught up in the explosion.

Do you seriously think that Sheppard would get someone else to do his 'dirty work' for him? Honestly?

garhkal
October 18th, 2008, 12:41 PM
This was keeping with the 'darker' trend of shep.. but i wont go so far as to totally condem him for it.

Pegasus_SGA
October 18th, 2008, 12:44 PM
This was keeping with the 'darker' trend of shep.. but i wont go so far as to totally condem him for it.
I agree he was darker by putting the gun to Jarvis's head and putting him in a headlock, but there was nothing in those last scenes that even suggests that Sheppard knew what the elder did. From past experience I think if he did knew he'd have left the leader on the planet. :lol: Now that would have been an interesting development. :P

The6thRace
October 18th, 2008, 12:47 PM
I still can't get over the "nice job" line from Sheppard. It just makes the whole situation worse.

I didn't catch that, but wow. Remorseless as well, thats disturbing. Although maybe not, maybe he simply knew it would weigh heavily on the 'innocent' village leader and wanted to comfort him a bit.

Lythisrose
October 18th, 2008, 12:48 PM
I don't get where people think Shep should be this nice fluffy-bunny, peacenik type character, (although he has a certain dorkiness that is very appealing in non-military settings).
However, when he needs to, and in order to protect his Team, he has been shown to be quite cold and ruthless in the past in order to achieve his objectives. I'm not sure why he would regret killing wraith or those he felt were aiding and abetting them.
Kind of like the name sounds, he is kind of like a German Shepherd, they are all sweet and good with the kiddies in normal situations, but I'd hate to come in between one and the child he felt he needed to protect.


I agree he was darker by putting the gun to Jarvis's head and putting him in a headlock, but there was nothing in those last scenes that even suggests that Sheppard knew what the elder did. From past experience I think if he did knew he'd have left the leader on the planet. :lol: Now that would have been an interesting development. :P

I guess it's open to interpretation as to whether Shep knew about the trap for the Wraith that included the villagers. I just assumed he did, and I didn't have a problem with it. As far as he's concerned these guys have turned into collaborators with the enemy and can be eliminated without too much moral dislocation. I did think he had a look of grimness at the end which suggested he did realize what was happening. But just MHO. :)

JackHarkness_Hot
October 18th, 2008, 02:42 PM
I doubt he cared much for Jervis and Co. when the darts were inbound.

Ripple in Space
October 18th, 2008, 03:06 PM
It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

If Daniel was there he would have slugged Shep.

JackHarkness_Hot
October 18th, 2008, 03:14 PM
It might go something like this -

Daniel: John, you can't do this
John: We gotta do this or we'll die, it's either them or us! Which would you prefer, Daniel?
Daniel: There's gotta be another way!
John: Dammit, there's no other way, we need to get out of here now, if you want to save them, you go save them!

Pegasus_SGA
October 18th, 2008, 03:22 PM
It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

I watched that bit again at the end, and can see the point you were making earlier, but we still don't have all the evidence to suggest that Sheppard knew that the villagers would be killed as well. Yes, it's possible he did, however, it's also equally possible that he didn't. I don't though think that Sheppard is any different now to how he's always been. There's always been that dark side to him where he makes decisions that are sometimes bordering on morality grounds. I have to say, I like that darker edge to him and that he will make those questionable decisions now and again. But he's very much the same person he was from the very first episode when he euthanised Sumner in Rising.

If Sheppard was involved in killing via third party the collaborators from the village, then I have thought about whether it makes me angry or whether this is new to Sheppard's personality, and if i'd have done the same in his place. I do love these little morality issues. :D But for me, the villagers in question had no issues in giving the team up, or the outsiders. Their morality from the onset was in question, and I have no hesitations that these people would give someone elses life up to save their own skins. So do I have sympathy for these people? Absolutely not. They were duplicitous in their actions right from the onset, and to be honest i've seen collaborators and they have no problem with giving up someone elses life if it's to save their own. So, as far as i'm concerned what goes around comes around. :)

Lewisco
October 18th, 2008, 05:05 PM
for all we know it was the village leader who suggested using the captive men to lure the wraith. shepphard may have suggested doing it himself, and the village leader gave him the other option. nevertheless, given their time limit, this was the fastest and easiest way to save the rest of the village, however.. morally wrong it may have been

and i'd have to agree with a lot of what "Pegasus SGA" just said.

fumblesmcstupid
October 18th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Sheppard and the Leader Guy KNEW what they were BOTH doing. It was a plan! Sheppard and the Leader Guy AGREED to it.

Sugar coating and trying to say that Sheppard didn't know what was going to happen to everyone in the mine is nice....I know that some people don't want to think John is capable of doing what he did. He BLEW those nasty Wraith COLLABORATORS To HELL and GONE!

People who work with the enemy.. are worse than the enemy. You KNOW who the Wraith are. You have no IDEA who a Wraith Collaborator is or WHO will become one!

prion
October 18th, 2008, 07:20 PM
What is starting to really disturb me is how many people think it was cool how Sheppard murdered those villagers in the explosion - villagers who were only doing what they thought was right to protect their families. I am really disturbed by this. We're those rogue villagers right? I cannot say - I believe they acted out of fear, not out of hatred. I just cannot believe that Sheppard just murdered them....


das

I know I don't see killing as cool (I think that's what people who play videogames might think). The 'rogue' villagers acted out of hatred as well as fear; they also were ready to kill the plague survivors to save their own skins, and there was a lot of that. The one plague survivor ratted out Carson to save his own skin, and well, guess he got killed as we never saw him again. Many of the actions in the episode were morally questionnable, and everybody chose their own course of action, and will have to live with it (or not, as Jervis and his buddies got blown up). War (and that's what it is between Wraith and humans) is never tidy or black & white. All you have to do is research some of the stuff that went on in WWII and it would curl your hair, how towns were sacrificed in order to save larger amounts of people. NOt pretty, but that's war :(

Ruffles
October 18th, 2008, 08:38 PM
I believe Sheppard said he had a plan, but it was going to take a lot of luck (something along those lines - he needed the hive's weapons disabled for it to work). This was Sheppard's plan, and the village leader agreed to it. He had to be the one to talk to Jarvis. Jarvis wouldn't have believed Sheppard.

Sheppard and the leader knew those men were in the mines. Just look at their faces after Sheppard detonates the C-4. Shep talks about killing Wraith, but he simply chooses to avoid dwelling on what else he's done (at least for now).

Those men didn't know they were walking into a trap, but they were not forced to be there. They chose to ally themselves with the Wraith and offer up innocents to be killed. Bad choice.

Lahela
October 19th, 2008, 12:01 AM
I didn't see anything to suggest that Sheppard or anyone else knew that Jervis and his posse would actually lead the wraith into the mine. For all we know, they may have presumed they would just tell them where the refugees were hiding. Sure, Sheppard and the village leader put the thing in motion, but how it played out after the keys were handed over was completely out of their hands.

I also assume that in military terms they were considered acceptable losses in the grand scheme of things - 4 or 5 vs 600 - 700. Not that I approve in the least, but I don't see why we should expect higher moral standards from fictional characters than we expect from the real thing.

Pitry
October 19th, 2008, 03:11 AM
Sigh...

I'm not justifying his actions, so don't get me wrong on that front, but there are more shades to this than just black and white.

If Sheppard hadn't done something, then chances are everyone would have died.

But that's the problem, you see. In this episode, there are no shades other than black and white - the entire episode.

I didn't think we're gonna get the "mob mentality" kind of episode. That's not something Stargate ever dared doing. But the point still stands - in life - real life - there's more to one's decisions than whether "they are good are evil", to quote Oma Desala. People are scared, confused, don't know what to do, and strengthen each other's helplessnes and fear. That's mob mentality - good ordinary people who end up doing something horrible because they're not really in control.

But in TPTB's world, this kind of thing doesn't exist. It's always been like that in Stargate - that's why I didn't expect anything different this time - but the truth is, it's always black and white. Good people do good things all the time - and if they do bad things it's because they made a msitake/ had no choice/ whatever, while bad people - out of their inherent badness - do bad things. Heroes are good; people have a choice whether to act like heroes or like cowards; cowards are bad.

There was a small close-up on the village leader's face as he saw his people explode. Ho, the angst. But our guys? the heroes? oh, they did the right thing, they had no other choice, etc etc. Because, in the end, according to Stargate Atlantis, the death sentence is a justified punishment for being a bad person. And whether you are good or bad solely depends on your own actions, because good people do good things... etc. Like people mentioned - the plague survivor who was afraid for himself and preferred turning over Beckett thinking it would help him - and of course, stands in compelte contrast to the heroic girl and the rest of the villagers who are facing their fate in pride, dignity and silence - died in the end, for that is the rightful punishment for bad people, and a person who's afraid for his life and would sacrifice someone else in order to perserve it isn't a scared human being, he's bad. Because he's a coward.

I said this in the anti thread. I'll repeat it here. I wish I lived in TPTB's world. It's so much more simple and comfortable than our own.

Or, in other words... peopledon't****ingactlikethatinreallifeargharghargharghargh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Erm, sorry. I find this POV frustrating.

Wayston
October 19th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Do you mean the part where he asks him to disable the weapons. If the Hive Ship opened fire hundreds of people would have been killed but it was Rodney's decsions to go ahead and try and disable the weapons... both Rodney and Beckett have their own free will and no one forced them to do anything. They are all willing to put their lives in danger to save others and this is what both Beckett and Rodney did, so how can Sheppard be responsible..

It means that he isn't discriminatory in who he puts in harms way. As I stated earlier the men in the mine were murderers who collaborated with the enemy who would probably have been sentenced to death anyway. Sacrificing team members to collaborate would have not been credible to the wraith + would have meant there wouldn't be enough punch to assault the gate. Rodney and Beckett could have hidden while waiting to be rescued, but instead Sheppard decided to bring up the fact that he needed the weapons disabled. Sheppard and the rest of the team on the planet could have stayed hidden until for atlantis to find out something was wrong and send help. The best outcome for the team itself would have been something along those lines and to leave the villagers to their own devices.

Sheppard was involved in all these decisions, you need to look at the entire package before judging his ethics.

DigiFluid
October 19th, 2008, 10:04 AM
/shrug

At this point, just add it to the list of crimes committed by the Expedition.

s09119
October 19th, 2008, 10:24 AM
Perhaps it was wrong. Perhaps it was even criminal. But I wouldn't condemn Sheppard to death any more than I would the thousands of soldiers here on Earth who have done similar things.

I mean, let's look at the facts; Sheppard had a limited amount of time in which to decide how to save the villagers. On the one hand, he knew that if they stayed in the mines, the Wraith would inevitably find them or they would just blast the entire area from orbit and they'd all die (Jervis and his men included).

So instead, he devised a plan that would take one part of those that would be killed out of the equation... that being his team and 99% of the villagers. Jervis and his people, the ones who put them all in greater danger in the first place, and who would have died regardless along with everyone else, were sacrificed. But the rest of the village was able to escape back to Atlantis, along with those that had the Hoffan drug in their systems, thus keeping the villagers themselves clear of conscience.

So again, do I think it was the right thing to do? Of course not. But, as in "Miller's Crossing," do I believe it was the only way to ensure the greater good, and the salvation of many good, innocent people? Yes.

And, most importantly, would I do the same? In an instant.

Avalonis
October 19th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Such self righteousness and liberal preachyness. Why do I guess some of the people in this thread would be the ones leading the wraith to the innocent victims?

s09119
October 19th, 2008, 11:02 AM
Such self righteousness and liberal preachyness. Why do I guess some of the people in this thread would be the ones leading the wraith to the innocent victims?

The Wraith are in no way innocent; they may have to feed to survive, but they have also been offered an alternative and refused it.

And what would you do then? If you believe Sheppard was so wrong in his actions, what would you have done in the situation?

Avalonis
October 19th, 2008, 11:17 AM
The Wraith are in no way innocent; they may have to feed to survive, but they have also been offered an alternative and refused it.

And what would you do then? If you believe Sheppard was so wrong in his actions, what would you have done in the situation?

You misunderstand me, i was saying the opposite of that. lol.

s09119
October 19th, 2008, 11:45 AM
You misunderstand me, i was saying the opposite of that. lol.

Oh... nevermind then :) When I hear "liberal preachyness," it's usually directed at my viewpoint haha.

Pitry
October 19th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Such self righteousness and liberal preachyness. Why do I guess some of the people in this thread would be the ones leading the wraith to the innocent victims?

Oh trust me,t here's about an equal chance of people from both sides of the thread to be leading the wraith to the victims.

And attempting to present the POV opposed to yours as belonging to murderers isn't doing your argument much good. Try using rational explanations to why we, the self righteous and liberal preachers are wrong, it might actually go somewhere.

MCH
October 19th, 2008, 04:41 PM
I know I don't see killing as cool (I think that's what people who play videogames might think). The 'rogue' villagers acted out of hatred as well as fear; they also were ready to kill the plague survivors to save their own skins, and there was a lot of that. The one plague survivor ratted out Carson to save his own skin, and well, guess he got killed as we never saw him again. Many of the actions in the episode were morally questionnable, and everybody chose their own course of action, and will have to live with it (or not, as Jervis and his buddies got blown up). War (and that's what it is between Wraith and humans) is never tidy or black & white. All you have to do is research some of the stuff that went on in WWII and it would curl your hair, how towns were sacrificed in order to save larger amounts of people. NOt pretty, but that's war :(

War ...... think you just summed the problems with this story up very well. We are born to live and born to die. Humans have show in the past that some will do what ever it takes to survive. Be that betraying their family, friends, town, and country. Look at World War 2 and what happened to those who helped the enemy.
War is nasty, soul destroying, Outsider showed this on a smaller scale death was staring them in the face so some betrayed the new outsiders and those who brought them here to the Wraith. In the end some of the guilty and innocent died and some lived.

MCh

Atlantis1
October 21st, 2008, 11:34 AM
The Wraith are in no way innocent; they may have to feed to survive, but they have also been offered an alternative and refused it.

And what would you do then? If you believe Sheppard was so wrong in his actions, what would you have done in the situation?

I agree!

Besides, they were afforded by Sheppard to all come to Atlantis. Both groups. The Wraith would have taken the infected to be researched on and I really believe they would have broken their deal with the villagers and culled them.

It seemed to me by the look on the leaders face when they were in the mine that was having the same sort of thoughts as to how to handle the situation. If the leader was against saving those in the mine, why didn't he go to the wraith himself and let the wraith know where to find them. I don't think the village leader liked his part in it but what would have made him any better then the wraith if he had just given the others up.

What made Jervis and his men so great. Why didn't they chose to go to Atlantis which would have been the best solution. But then there would been no plot to make an episode.

:confused:

Laura Dove
October 21st, 2008, 11:37 AM
What made Jervis and his men so great. Why didn't they chose to go to Atlantis which would have been the best solution. But then there would been no plot to make an episode.

They DID agree to go to Atlantis... that is, until the Atlanteans admitted this option was not possible any more, because there were way more wraith than they initially thought. It's only at this point that Jervis and his men took action: When the Atlanteans had no other option to offer them.

Atlantis1
October 21st, 2008, 08:57 PM
They DID agree to go to Atlantis... that is, until the Atlanteans admitted this option was not possible any more, because there were way more wraith than they initially thought. It's only at this point that Jervis and his men took action: When the Atlanteans had no other option to offer them.

True. I still don,t think it was right of Jervis to take matters into his own hands. I believe that working together with the Atlanteans they might have come up with another way to handle things. Otherwise, Jervis was a fool to think he could have scored points with the wraith.

FallenAngelII
October 22nd, 2008, 08:45 AM
Are people conveniently forgetting that Jarvis was not an honorable man who was just thinking of what was best for his people? He was Mini-Hitler.

He didn't like the outsiders because they were outsiders. They stated that he was against taking them in in the first place, despite the village being quite big and seemingly prospering and the fact that prior to "the event", the Belarans posed no risk to the villagers.

Yet Jarvis didn't want to take them, survivors or a horrible plague, in just because they weren't born on the same planet as him (or quite possible just because they weren't born in the same village as him).

He wasn't some noble do-gooder. He was selfish and xenophobic. If he hadn't been so xenophobic, I doubt he'd been so gung-ho to immediately hand the Belarans over without giving SGA-1 a chance to save them first.

I'm not saying he deserved to die for this. I'm just saying, he wasn't some noble warrior doing only what was best for his people.

angela23
October 23rd, 2008, 07:26 AM
:sheppard:
Yeah I was kinda surprised at the method he used. usually they try not to go that kind of route. But then they are in a life or death situation, and a decision had to be made, they didn't have time to debate the morality of their decision.
:sheppard:In War you always end up having to sacrifice a few to safe the majority. Those few died to save hundreds of others. They would have led hundreds of the Balarans to their death to safe themselves. Sheppard just did what they would have done if they woul have had a choice. He did not lika doing it, but didn't have a choice either. They had a choice too, they could have not took the Wraith to the Belarans, but they wanted to save only themselves and let the Wraith kill everybodyelse. More likely the Wraith would have killed them anyway.It wasn't nice, but in war you sometimes have to make a quick decision that is not so clear cut.

Pitry
October 23rd, 2008, 03:43 PM
:sheppard:
:sheppard:In War you always end up having to sacrifice a few to safe the majority. Those few died to save hundreds of others. They would have led hundreds of the Balarans to their death to safe themselves. Sheppard just did what they would have done if they woul have had a choice. He did not lika doing it, but didn't have a choice either. They had a choice too, they could have not took the Wraith to the Belarans, but they wanted to save only themselves and let the Wraith kill everybodyelse. More likely the Wraith would have killed them anyway.It wasn't nice, but in war you sometimes have to make a quick decision that is not so clear cut.

There's a well known concept in warfare, though. War crimes. It's a very clear set of rules of what you can and cannot do, even if it's a war.

Col.Foley
October 23rd, 2008, 04:10 PM
Where to begin?
First, I should like to bring up once again that the Jervis crowd was not a bunch of fluffy bunnies rolling around in the park that just happened to catch the evil gaze of Shep. They were evil, disgusting men, sell outs, and traitors to their entire village, to their own people, and to humanity. It is they that should be tried for crimes against humanity, and not Shepard. Were his actions completly right? No of course not. But little that happens in war, and when you have to kill to survive is. War Crimes be damned, which I do not think he came even close to that level, despite being so dubious.
As for Wallace, which people have mentioned. Shep was once again justified, in his view, I mean he may be a bit of a vigilante, but Wallace was not a nice man, he put others at risk for his own personal benefit...granted...I need to watch the ep again to see EXACTLY what happened. But in short there are always better ways, he did not have to put that person in danger at all. He could have found another way. Instead he chose to be criminal, and criminally negligent/incompetent.
And why defend the Wraith...sure, they must feed, but it is far from confirmed that they have to do it on humans, or what not. Or that they need to do what they need to do at all. In fact, they threatened to blow up the entire village of people, only to hunt down a hand full of them. Is this not the definition of evil?
Now Shepard did not do the most right thing, obviously, but he did the only thing, and he even did do a moral thing.
And people are getting all worked up over the fact that Shep apparently acted unilaterally in killing these people. When, the leader was the one who did it, and the one who sprang the trap. Shep might have done that trap without his knowlege or permission, but it was even more likely that he explained exactly what he wanted to do to the town leader their. Who acted in effect as the jury, and in fact he was tried b his peers. Sure it may have not been an American/Western/Human trial, but he did have a say in exactly what punishment Jervis was deserving of his crimes.
And then Jervis was about to re do those same crimes. he did go to the cave, he could have ignored the leader and gone home, and back to his life. But he chose to do not only a morally amigious thing, but the wrong thing. And thus, confirming the punishment that he got from his elder.

Pitry
October 26th, 2008, 05:59 AM
Where to begin?
First, I should like to bring up once again that the Jervis crowd was not a bunch of fluffy bunnies rolling around in the park that just happened to catch the evil gaze of Shep.

So they deserved to die? So if someone does something that is bad, the justified punishment is the death one?
It woul be worth to mention that as far as we know, no lives were list in this case in the end. You can't even say they were murderers - but they attempted murder. Even in Western countries that feel the capitol punishment is an acceptable one, it is given as a result of first degree murder - when both the murder adn the intent should be proven without a doubt. That is not what happened here.


They were evil, disgusting men, sell outs, and traitors to their entire village, to their own people, and to humanity.

They were afraid for their lives. They had families, and friends, and their own lives to think of, and they didn't want to risk any of these for a bunch of strangers they didn't know and didn't care for, who they have previously decided to host, feed etc.
I'm not saying they were angels. Maybe they were evil people. We can't tell - we haven't seen them in any situation other than the "we're afraid for our lives" one. But yes - real people, good people, do disgusting things when they're afraid for their lives or the lives of these they love. Because you can't ask a human being to risk their own lives for that of a stranger. It might be the heroic and noble thing to do - it probably is. And the people who do that should be praised and glorified. And they are. Because what they do is not taken for granted. Because the world ca't be divided into heroes and badguys. Doesn't work that way.


It is they that should be tried for crimes against humanity, and not Shepard.

Do you even know what crimes against humanity is? Cos... it doesn't look that way.
Besides. Not every time a person kills someone else it's a murder. Not every time white guys beat up a black person it's a crime of hate. Not every time peopel cooperate with the enemy they're traitors, and not every time civilians get killed in a war it's a crime against humanity.



Were his actions completly right? No of course not. But little that happens in war, and when you have to kill to survive is. War Crimes be damned, which I do not think he came even close to that level, despite being so dubious.

So, a bunch of people defending their home is wrong, but a murder of civilians by an armed military man is okay cos everything's allowed in war? Have you noticed the contradiction?
See, if he had to use humans to lure the wraith into his trap,. and if he couldn't understand a way for said humans to leave the trap, eh could have done two things.
First, he could have volunteered himelf. What? You have to kill to survive, bad things happen in a war, he knows that some victories demand sacrifices... and he's completely okay with sacrificing other people, why not himself?
The second is that he could have told them. He could have given them the chance to redeem themselves, tell them the wraith are going to kill them no matter what - and give the villager who led the wraith to Beckett as an example - and that that way they could at least do some good. I'm coming out of the assumption of course that there's an understanding that no person is all bad or all good, and that if the villagers would ahve understood they're about to die anyway, they would have preferred to take the wraith with them.
But no. He kills civilians - because that's what he did - in cold blood.
The thing about war crimes is that soldiers kill soldiers and try to0 leave as many of the civilian population unharmed.



And why defend the Wraith...sure, they must feed, but it is far from confirmed that they have to do it on humans, or what not.

Condemned, season 2, episode 5.


Or that they need to do what they need to do at all. In fact, they threatened to blow up the entire village of people, only to hunt down a hand full of them. Is this not the definition of evil?

No, it isn't.


Now Shepard did not do the most right thing, obviously, but he did the only thing, and he even did do a moral thing.

No, he didn't. He chose survival - his own survival - over morality... much like the wraith, actually.


And people are getting all worked up over the fact that Shep apparently acted unilaterally in killing these people. When, the leader was the one who did it, and the one who sprang the trap. Shep might have done that trap without his knowlege or permission, but it was even more likely that he explained exactly what he wanted to do to the town leader their. Who acted in effect as the jury, and in fact he was tried b his peers. Sure it may have not been an American/Western/Human trial, but he did have a say in exactly what punishment Jervis was deserving of his crimes.

The People's Republic of China sends people to prison and torture them for protesting of human rights. Iran sentences people to death by stoning for practicing homosexuality. So, the entire Western world should shut up cos by their standards it's the right thing to do?


And then Jervis was about to re do those same crimes. he did go to the cave, he could have ignored the leader and gone home, and back to his life. But he chose to do not only a morally amigious thing, but the wrong thing. And thus, confirming the punishment that he got from his elder.

Only in the simplistic, black-and-white, crime-and-punjishment world of the writers of stargate Atlantis.

rarocks24
October 26th, 2008, 06:02 AM
For crying out loud, I think Shepard went too far in this episode. Those guys surrendered peacefully to him, and he just used them to trap the wraith after being told by the leader of the village that they should bring the wraith to the cave to capture the others.

Talk about morally ambiguous, and almost downright criminal of him. Sure, the other guys weren't saints, but he knew that sending them to that cave was pretty much a death sentence.
In all fairness, I don't think Sheppard expected them to go to the cave with the Wraith.

LiLTiff17
October 26th, 2008, 05:03 PM
Have you ever known starvation? It's very hard to say how you would feel when you REALLY need to eat in order to live. We know of humans resorting to cannibalism - even to eating their own CHILDREN - in order to survive.

So, no - what the Wraith do is not worse than the Lanteans. They are like tigers or sharks - a predatory species that must prey on another to survive. The Lanteans, on the other hand, have a choice - like, for one, they can go back home to earth and let the Wraith live, and feed, in peace.

@ TragicComedy - that's because Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith. They kill Wraith out of hate and prejudice. Nice qualities, eh? Even Queen Teyla took advantage of her position to kill Wraith out of hatred right before Todd's eyes, knowing he could do nothing to stop her. The humans are driven by hate - the Wraith by a need to feed.

Perhaps this is why the Wraith often come across as innocent to me (innocent, as in naive...not as in without guilt). They are just doing what nature dictates, they are feeding to survive. On the other hand, humans - out of sheer hatred for the species - are constantly looking for ways to kill them.

Maybe this is what disturbs me the most - Wraith killing for food is 'unjustified' according to this show, while humans killing out of hate and prejudice is justified, because they're the heroes.

das
The humans are not driven by hate, they are driven by survival just as the wraith are. In nature plenty of prey fight back against predators, and some are successful, are those animals (prey) who manage to kill predators evil or malicious? No they are trying to survive. Are the predators who eat other animals evil? No they are just trying to survive as well. Both prey and predator coexist, but not peacefully, its the same with the wraith and humans in Pegasus.

nx01a
October 26th, 2008, 05:14 PM
If Shep can make an emotionally unstable man commit Suicide By Wraith, then he can make a local leader become a mass murderer by sending his own 'evil' people off to die in a triple cross.

As long as Rodney and his other friends survive, who cares who has to die?:P To be fair, it was to help evacuate however many of those 600-700 people were left in the village, and using the lead 'evil' redneck as his puppet was nicely played. Shep seems quite good at playing mind games with people and using their weaknesses against them and for his good.

One thing about the episode that irked me was that Jervis was largely right. The team really had no plan and only survived by sheer carefully timed strokes of luck and human base emotions. Sure, siding with the enemy might only save you from getting culled for a few weeks but still... He was doing what he thought was best for his people. The Atlantis personnel never even told the plague survivors that the Wraith would want them destroyed, that basically makes Atlantis responsible for every single Hoffan survivor/adopted planet they've had contact with that's destroyed by the Wraith. If the survivors don't know to be extra careful, how can they?

Atlantis1
October 29th, 2008, 10:18 PM
Sheppard cannot be blamed for everything. Since season 1 of SGA there have been threads always putting him in the hot sit when things went wrong. Should he and his team hide out in the forest and just let the whole thing happen? If the rest of the team was against what happened they could have stopped Sheppard since they outnumber him.

I believe there was no choice which would have been perfect and the one they took turned out to save the most lives.

MatroxMeteor
October 30th, 2008, 08:22 AM
I think one of the reasons to blame Sheppard is that his team was, again, ill-prepared. They encounter hostile situations nearly every time they go out and they are IMHO poorly prepared and lack proper equipment. Did Sheppard really have to blow everyone up? How about an ambush outside in the open? A little precision fire could eliminate the Wraith and leave the villagers alive, whatever their future fate may be. How about if Specialist Ronon Dex carried more than his little gun? I like it, but seriously, Specialist? He could carry an M4 or some other carbine with a reflex sight for a little more range, firepower and accuracy. Would it be too much to carry night vision equipment, silencers and flashbangs? I'm not talking about the team becoming Team Rambo or the Executioners, but they would have a bit more choice in their tactics... As it is there are more or less three choices:

1) Use the P90.

2) If P90 doesn't work, use C4 and blow it up.

3) If C4 doesn't work, call the Daedalus and have them blow it up from orbit.

...

Atlantis1
October 31st, 2008, 06:00 PM
They only went to the planet to bring Beckett more supplies. They didn't have any idea the wraith would come. Where does that lead to needing anything more then they had?

Mitchell82
November 4th, 2008, 08:54 AM
They only went to the planet to bring Beckett more supplies. They didn't have any idea the wraith would come. Where does that lead to needing anything more then they had?

Remember some on here have trouble with logical reasoning.;)