Oh noes! Human experiments!

[FallenAngelII]

What's up with the "No human experiments!" policy in SGverse? It's like you're all of a sudden a super villain if you experiment on humans.

So... what is it about it that's so bad, anyway? We humans experiment on animals and other humans all the time, and that's just to develop new make up and other BS stuff that aren't necessities.

What did Loki do that was so horrible? He kidnapped people, replaced them with clones of themselves, did some mumbo jumbo experiments on their DNA or whatever and then returned them fully functional and whatnot.

Sure, they now have the memory of an abduction, but it's not like they were killed or something.

And why have the Asgard never thought of simply asking for people let them experiment on them?

Goa'uld: Bow down to me! Kree ("Yoo-hoo!")!
Random human #1: Oh noes!
Loki: Come with me! You'll be free from the Goa'uld and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #1: Yay!

Wraith: Feast on their life force!
Random human #2: Oh noes!
Lost Tribe Asgard: Come with me! You'll be free from the Wraith and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #2: Yay!

But logic has never really been a strong point with the PTB, I guess.

[NIKIN]

I see what you mean, afterall it's not like the experiments Loki were doing actually harmed the humans, it was more study than experimentation. Also didnt thor say that research was a dead end? I guess he was wrong.

Didn't the asgard in this episode say they had almost completed the work anyway? As long as the tests weren't harmful I wouldnt mind being experimented on by them to save their entire race

[Wrath Of Odin]

What's up with the "No human experiments!" policy in SGverse? It's like you're all of a sudden a super villain if you experiment on humans.

So... what is it about it that's so bad, anyway? We humans experiment on animals and other humans all the time, and that's just to develop new make up and other BS stuff that aren't necessities.

What did Loki do that was so horrible? He kidnapped people, replaced them with clones of themselves, did some mumbo jumbo experiments on their DNA or whatever and then returned them fully functional and whatnot.

Sure, they now have the memory of an abduction, but it's not like they were killed or something.

And why have the Asgard never thought of simply asking for people let them experiment on them?

Goa'uld: Bow down to me! Kree ("Yoo-hoo!")!
Random human #1: Oh noes!
Loki: Come with me! You'll be free from the Goa'uld and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #1: Yay!

Wraith: Feast on their life force!
Random human #2: Oh noes!
Lost Tribe Asgard: Come with me! You'll be free from the Wraith and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #2: Yay!

But logic has never really been a strong point with the PTB, I guess.

I agree wholeheartedly, I think Thor was more pissed with Loki for defying the Asgard high council as opposed to actually being genuinely concerned for a few humans who were subjects of his experiments with very little ill effects. But ultimately I suppose they PTB want to draw the line between good and bad somewhere and this is where they have decided to draw it, in thick black and white as opposed to the shades of grey where it really belongs. I mean there the last of their race, who ultimately did save earth on numerous occassions. I am not splitting hairs they are the same race, they are capable of that unflappable kindness we saw from Thor and the other Asgard. I just found the whole Asgard being *******s thing and actually fighting against the Travellers and our heroes to be in bad taste, the Asgard are not morons, they want to live to go out into the galaxy and live not get blown into smithereens.

[kymeric]

Experimenting on Wraith is ok, experiemnting on Humans is not. Aliens dont count.

[Xaeden]

From what little we know about Loki, he doomed untold clones to death. Their consciousnesses were the same as their original counterparts and as such they had a right to live. Yet Loki admitted that their faiths were all the same. How he did it is unknown - He could've put them down quickly after doing the switch or he could've let them die on their own with the knowledge of what was happening to them. Either way, they didn't deserve that and it is equally as wrong as dooming the original person to death if not more so.

But, we don't know if that was the extent of what he did or how far these other Asgard went. Loki might've tried not to go so far as to harm his subjects only because he didn't want to draw attention to what he was doing. Where as these Asgard might've used their free reign to do whatever they pleased and the reason they got results may not just have been because they had more time, but because they did everything and anything to their Human subjects. Also, it's possible that Loki had the technology to get the information he thought he needed without killing the subject where as these Asgard had to use much more primitive means which did actual damage to the Humans they were experimenting on. At this point, we don't know, but the way they described what they did, I get the impression that no cost is too high for them.

[FallenAngelII]

I just found the whole Asgard being *******s thing and actually fighting against the Travellers and our heroes to be in bad taste, the Asgard are not morons, they want to live to go out into the galaxy and live not get blown into smithereens.

Yeah, what the hell was up with that? What did those 2 Asgard cruiser thingies do, anyway? They should've known they were overpowered. They'd taken the key with them, why bother fighting?

[Xaeden]

Yeah, what the hell was up with that? What did those 2 Asgard cruiser thingies do, anyway? They should've known they were overpowered. They'd taken the key with them, why bother fighting?

The key is pointless. It just stops someone from manually shutting the place down, it does not stop someone from shutting it down it by blowing the place up. Also, they weren't necessarily outgunned. Damage to shields has the possibility of disabling key systems that would've allowed them to finish the Traveler ship off if they were lucky or they might've been able to take it out if they stayed all in and out maneuvered the other ship. They might've taken the destruction of the first ship as a fluke since it got caught in close quarters with the Traveler's ship, but then after the second was destoyed the third got the hint and didn't bother returning.

[Wayston]

1) taking away the key was not pointless; this was done before any ship showed up and was simply a smart precaution (sort of like not leaving any ATA gene ancient devices powerd up for use by non ATA gene carriers); in any case meredith and daniel were (supposed to be in) lock up when this decision was taken and would have been left behind so a rescue attempt for the humans (most likely aim of any ship showing up) would mean they would have to put boots on the ground and search the facility and only then destroy it (not having a key lying around to deactivate it easily);

any delay was a good delay since the fleeing asgard would want to postpone the reactivation of wraith hyperdrives for as long as possible; in fact every second extra time would be worth gold to them while making their escape in what appear to be very shabby vehicles

2) you don't know if prodding and poking was the extent of the experiments; clearly they broke off the main asgard faction for a very good reason, perhaps they were even worse than the asgard maverik scientists who stayed behind?

it has already been established that the stargate universe morals allow for fishy stuff to happen to humans as long as it is a win win situation (i.e. the tok'ra symbionts for dying humans) so there must have been something more going on than a simple medical examination

[Pandora's_Box]

Oh, FAII. How I've missed you around these parts!

In answer to your original post, if we (humanity in the SG-verse) were suddenly accepting of human experimentation, then we'd be down one horse from which to sit upon and scoff at the lowly unwashed masses.

Then again, it's one thing to experiment upon animals for the sake of saving the human race (please note that I am referring to experimentation for medicines and whatnot, not cosmetics which is highly illegal now anyway) and quite another to experiment on humans for the sake of...what exactly? Galactic and universal domination?

[Xaeden]

1) taking away the key was not pointless; this was done before any ship showed up and was simply a smart precaution (sort of like not leaving any ATA gene ancient devices powerd up for use by non ATA gene carriers); in any case meredith and daniel were (supposed to be in) lock up when this decision was taken and would have been left behind so a rescue attempt for the humans (most likely aim of any ship showing up) would mean they would have to put boots on the ground and search the facility and only then destroy it (not having a key lying around to deactivate it easily);

I was stating that it was pointless within the context of the key being a means to stop the Traveler's ship from turning off the device, not in general terms. Thus of course taking the key served a point, but not the point that I was responding to in my quote, which was that the Asgard shouldn't have bothered fighting since they had the key (like that would stop a ship from being able to disable the Attero device). Where as if they were able to somehow take out the Traveler ship despite the costs (and then the Daedalus which was clearly not battle capable) then they would've bought themselves enough time to get reinforcements (if they had any) to the planet so that they could set up a better defense against future attacks. They also could've launched an attack against Atlantis and very likely put an end to any other ships knowing where the Attero device was located if successful.

[misterpapshmere]

Did anyone notice the electronic implants and circuits on the craniums of the Pegasus Galaxy Asgard. Remember the mysterious aliens from alternate universes from Daedalus Variations, the cyborg humanoids that boarded the Daedalus had similiar implants. I remember one of the producers said the new aliens were in that episode. The fact that these Asgard are experimenting on humans, and have similiar implants means that they have probably created cyborg soldiers as a result of their experiments. And they are probably in the season finale "Enemy At The Gates". So with the power of the Wraith in decline, and the Replicators neutralized, Atlantis is now dealing with two new factions, Michael's hybrid army, and perhaps a Pegasus Asgard army of cyborgs. It would be interesting, two threats created through genetic research, but one threat is also technologically enhanced.

[NIKIN]

Did anyone notice the electronic implants and circuits on the craniums of the Pegasus Galaxy Asgard. Remember the mysterious aliens from alternate universes from Daedalus Variations, the cyborg humanoids that boarded the Daedalus had similiar implants. I remember one of the producers said the new aliens were in that episode. The fact that these Asgard are experimenting on humans, and have similiar implants means that they have probably created cyborg soldiers as a result of their experiments. And they are probably in the season finale "Enemy At The Gates". So with the power of the Wraith in decline, and the Replicators neutralized, Atlantis is now dealing with two new factions, Michael's hybrid army, and perhaps a Pegasus Asgard army of cyborgs. It would be interesting, two threats created through genetic research, but one threat is also technologically enhanced.

Actually, Joe Malozzi said the Daedalus Variations aliens aren't coming back this year

[misterpapshmere]

You are probably right, but you have to admit that the cyborgs have to be Asgard creations because of the cranial implants. But then again with the series coming to an end, they could show up to set up the upcoming tv movie next year.

[rarocks24]

What's up with the "No human experiments!" policy in SGverse? It's like you're all of a sudden a super villain if you experiment on humans.

So... what is it about it that's so bad, anyway? We humans experiment on animals and other humans all the time, and that's just to develop new make up and other BS stuff that aren't necessities.

What did Loki do that was so horrible? He kidnapped people, replaced them with clones of themselves, did some mumbo jumbo experiments on their DNA or whatever and then returned them fully functional and whatnot.

Sure, they now have the memory of an abduction, but it's not like they were killed or something.

And why have the Asgard never thought of simply asking for people let them experiment on them?

Goa'uld: Bow down to me! Kree ("Yoo-hoo!")!
Random human #1: Oh noes!
Loki: Come with me! You'll be free from the Goa'uld and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #1: Yay!

Wraith: Feast on their life force!
Random human #2: Oh noes!
Lost Tribe Asgard: Come with me! You'll be free from the Wraith and all you have to do is get poked and prodded once in a while.
Random human #2: Yay!

But logic has never really been a strong point with the PTB, I guess.

So forcefully abducting a person, replacing it with a clone, and then murdering the clone is acceptable?

Unless you understand what is going on (scientifically), then you can't make an informed judgment. And that's even assuming the Asgard would tell you the whole story.

Experimenting on dead humans (that died of natural causes, or at least weren't murdered in order to experiment on them) is okay.

Experimenting on animals for medical research is somewhat okay. I accept it, doesn't mean I like it.

Experimenting on live humans who don't know what's going on... VERY UNACCEPTABLE. This extends to the Wraith.

Loki acted against the moral code of his race (most of it anyways). He suffered the consequences. Abducting people by force and experimenting on them, murdering their clones, etc. is not a moral thing to do. Particularly because Thor swore to protect the human race because they saw the potential in them. In essence, its not in the nature of the majority of the Asgard to seek to such desperation and cruelty to survive as a species.

[Shpinxinator]

So forcefully abducting a person, replacing it with a clone, and then murdering the clone is acceptable?

Unless you understand what is going on (scientifically), then you can't make an informed judgment. And that's even assuming the Asgard would tell you the whole story.

Experimenting on dead humans (that died of natural causes, or at least weren't murdered in order to experiment on them) is okay.

Experimenting on animals for medical research is somewhat okay. I accept it, doesn't mean I like it.

Experimenting on live humans who don't know what's going on... VERY UNACCEPTABLE. This extends to the Wraith.

Loki acted against the moral code of his race (most of it anyways). He suffered the consequences. Abducting people by force and experimenting on them, murdering their clones, etc. is not a moral thing to do. Particularly because Thor swore to protect the human race because they saw the potential in them. In essence, its not in the nature of the majority of the Asgard to seek to such desperation and cruelty to survive as a species.

I agree I believe it was Bra'tac who said life for the sake of life means nothing...so for the Asgard who save there lives at the cost of their morals sort of defeats the purpose. In terms of Animal experimentation it even in the real world of science is sort of taboo and it's in no way look favorably upon...of course it still happens BUT again it is not well received...same with Loki and his experiments....think of the Asgard version of PETA...AETP...heh (Asgard for the Ethical Treatment of People)