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    Very disappointed with Daniel and Rodney's lack of morality

    One thing that really bothered me with this episode is that - when Rodney and Daniel realized how the device worked - they never once questioned the morality of destroying the Wraith, even as Todd was working with Keller to try to save his kind from the necessity of such a destruction.

    In contrast, Todd had a moral conflict with what he was doing, questioning whether it was the correct course for his kind, realizing that many (or most) Wraith may balk at doing something that is of benefit to humans. At least Todd saw the moral issue, and how it would affect Wraith, and - in turn - humans. But Daniel and Rodney never questioned the destruction of the Wraith. For this, I have lost much respect for both (although I really don't know Daniel, so this is my first exposure to him).

    Instead of considering the extinction of an ENTIRE species, they are only concerned about saving their own lives (McKay, specifically). One life, maybe two, at the forfeit of an entire species.

    Where is the morality in that? Where is the morality in humans as they are portrayed in SGA? I've heard more protest on their part over the fate of Fran - a FREAKIN' MACHINE - than what is to become of an entire race of living, breathing beings.

    And before you start with the 'but the Wraith eat people', just remember that the Wraith never want the extinction of the human race...instead, they want and need to coexist with humans. However, the humans don't even want to try to save the Wraith unless it's to their (human) benefit, as Shep & Co. keep reminding Todd, "We're NOT doing this for YOU, we're doing it for US." (Todd, on the other hand, often points out that his ideas are for the benefit of both human and Wraith alike.)

    Moments like this just make me dislike the human characters even more. Not one twinge of conscience over killing an entire species, even as they work with that species in an 'attempt' to save them. Meanwhile, Todd's back on the Daedalus, struggling with issues that the therapy will raise.

    In this light, I DO believe Todd was betrayed. Not by purposeful action, but by sheer ignorance on the part of Rodney and Daniel, who would rather save their own necks while aiding a new, unknown enemy in the destruction of an entire species (or, at the very least, a current ally) that is making an attempt to find peaceful coexistence. Todd was absolutely right...it WAS a betrayal. Shame on Jackson and McKay for lacking the moral fiber to just say 'no'.

    das
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    #2
    I can certainly see your point das. Knowing that Keller and her team are working to remove the need for the wraith to feed on humans, it does seem like an act of self-preservation on Rodney's part to activate the device. And I agree that it is bizarre that more remorse was shown over putting Fran in the deep freeze that the idea of wiping out a species, given that all that remains of Elizabeth is a series of computer codes. In fact, there was not even a hint at remorse or a mention of what could happen if the humans' research is successful (I would have much preferred Daniel to use that as his argument to the aliens). But on the other hand, we all act for our own self-preservation, even at the expense of others. I'm not saying it's right, but it's human nature and I'm pretty sure wraith nature as well.
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      #3
      Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
      One thing that really bothered me with this episode is that - when Rodney and Daniel realized how the device worked - they never once questioned the morality of destroying the Wraith, even as Todd was working with Keller to try to save his kind from the necessity of such a destruction.

      In contrast, Todd had a moral conflict with what he was doing, questioning whether it was the correct course for his kind, realizing that many (or most) Wraith may balk at doing something that is of benefit to humans. At least Todd saw the moral issue, and how it would affect Wraith, and - in turn - humans. But Daniel and Rodney never questioned the destruction of the Wraith. For this, I have lost much respect for both (although I really don't know Daniel, so this is my first exposure to him).

      Instead of considering the extinction of an ENTIRE species, they are only concerned about saving their own lives (McKay, specifically). One life, maybe two, at the forfeit of an entire species.

      Where is the morality in that? Where is the morality in humans as they are portrayed in SGA? I've heard more protest on their part over the fate of Fran - a FREAKIN' MACHINE - than what is to become of an entire race of living, breathing beings.

      And before you start with the 'but the Wraith eat people', just remember that the Wraith never want the extinction of the human race...instead, they want and need to coexist with humans. However, the humans don't even want to try to save the Wraith unless it's to their (human) benefit, as Shep & Co. keep reminding Todd, "We're NOT doing this for YOU, we're doing it for US." (Todd, on the other hand, often points out that his ideas are for the benefit of both human and Wraith alike.)

      Moments like this just make me dislike the human characters even more. Not one twinge of conscience over killing an entire species, even as they work with that species in an 'attempt' to save them. Meanwhile, Todd's back on the Daedalus, struggling with issues that the therapy will raise.

      In this light, I DO believe Todd was betrayed. Not by purposeful action, but by sheer ignorance on the part of Rodney and Daniel, who would rather save their own necks while aiding a new, unknown enemy in the destruction of an entire species (or, at the very least, a current ally) that is making an attempt to find peaceful coexistence. Todd was absolutely right...it WAS a betrayal. Shame on Jackson and McKay for lacking the moral fiber to just say 'no'.

      das
      You brought up a point I completely missed. But now it puts a new 'color' on the episode and the behaviour of the two-McKay and Daniel. I must say that through the whole episode, and through other episodes, separately in SG-1 and SGA, these to scientists come off as self-absorbed, self-centered and well... selfish, not so much for their own safety and survival (which is a natural factor in everyone) but for the acquisition of knowledge and their work. I guess it's called passion...

      On the other hand, it's a question of where the writers wanted to go with the episode, and yes, the humans of SGA have shown little concern for other species, or interest to understand them, or coexist. As you said, without parsing too much, SGA is not big on moral points; except on occasional brilliant moments like when Todd asks his famous question to Keller. With some exceptions, humans are shown rather shallow in that department. Or rather, they are shown as very human.

      Also, at this point, with the show having been cancelled, the writers are limitted in what they can do, or create new ideas, so they are working with what they had for season 5 before the rug got pulled from under them, and they are going with a lot of the old personalities with no further development. So, I wouldn't be too hard on it.
      HONOR. A story. http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...22#post8549622

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        #4
        It's a continual theme on SGA though, isn't it? This constant battle between attempting to live peacefully side-by-side with the Wraith and the attempt to overcome the much baser, more primal instinct of survival and killing that which is trying to kill you.

        Sometimes one side wins, sometimes the other.

        It's a rather fascinating study in human nature. The Atlantis team, after years of battle with the Wraith and much professed hatred for the other species, have finally (after meeting the likes of Todd and creating the likes of Michael) succeeded in garnering, if not respect for the species as whole or even the individual, than certainly a wariness of their own willingness to simply destroy an entire species.

        They've gone from trying to outright kill them to trying to change them "back" into humans to attempting to keep them as "Wraith" as possible whilst eliminating the one thing that keeps the humans and Wraith from coexisting peacefully; their need to feed on human life.

        In a way, as Todd did say in the episode, this could destroy the identity of the Wraith just as well as anything else. Who would they be? What would they do without the very thing that has defined their existence for so long?

        And then we have the Arterro Device. A relic of a time when the only consideration (among beings, I'll have you note, considered much more "evolved" than us humans) was pure destruction of the Wraith as a species. It's introduced not in a controlled envirnoment where the pros and cons can be weighed and considered, but at a time when it's activation will determine whether Rodney and Daniel live or die at the mercy of an alien race they know exactly nothing about.

        Could that race activate it themselves? All signs point to know considering they wanted Rodney to do it, but seeing as how nothing is known about them, we don't know what their motives are or how they think and act. Regardless, that's not the point. But the reaction brought forth by such a relic is.

        That reaction is something of a relic itself. One borne of instinct and horrible memories of Wraith's culling, to this point, millions of humans. For their own survival yes, but one never thinks altruistically when one's life is on the line.

        So the first thing that Rodney realized was that this device was the answer to a problem Atlantis had long given up on solving. But now that it was sitting right there in front of him, ready to be activated and put to use, all set to potentially solve all the problems of every single human in the Pegasus galaxy, it was almost too good to be true.

        After all, there is no guarantee that the Wraith will stop enacting war against humanity simply because they no longer need to feed on them. Wars occur all the time over religion, power, wealth, out of sheer greed or pure evil and a will to destroy. But this, this relic of a device, could ensure the survival of the human race.



        A/N: I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here and pointing out the other side. I, of course, have problems with the morality of this show sometimes as well, but every coin does have two sides after all.
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          #5
          It wasn't a Wraith kill all device though - For all they knew at the time, it could've been used to cripple the Wraith and force their surrender under terms. For example, they could've told them that they would only turn it off if they all submitted to the gene therapy and gave Humans full access to all their knowledge, including ship growing capabilities so that Humanity would be on equal footing should they decide to remain hostile. Nobody was talking about the end of Wraith kind at that point so the only moral issue would've been in regard to all the Wraith that would've died before they surrendered and the deaths caused by any side effects. However, Daniel was ready to sacrifice himself over those potential side effects and they know full well that the only way the Wraith are going to stop is with lots of deaths on their end. They're killing themselves right now and with Keller's treatment all they were doing was giving one faction an edge over the other factions so that they could win and (hopefully) spread the treatment by being the best at killing their own kind.
          Last edited by Xaeden; 30 September 2008, 10:40 AM.

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            #6
            Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
            One thing that really bothered me with this episode is that - when Rodney and Daniel realized how the device worked - they never once questioned the morality of destroying the Wraith, even as Todd was working with Keller to try to save his kind from the necessity of such a destruction.
            Agreed, of course. While it is understandable that they choose their own individual lives over the wraith species, what I can't forgive is that they don't even question the morality of the action. They fear the side effect of the weapon but wouldn't even have hesitated without said side effect (say, if Janus had only abandoned the project because he lacked time).
            My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
            Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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              #7
              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
              One thing that really bothered me with this episode is that - when Rodney and Daniel realized how the device worked - they never once questioned the morality of destroying the Wraith, even as Todd was working with Keller to try to save his kind from the necessity of such a destruction.

              In contrast, Todd had a moral conflict with what he was doing, questioning whether it was the correct course for his kind, realizing that many (or most) Wraith may balk at doing something that is of benefit to humans. At least Todd saw the moral issue, and how it would affect Wraith, and - in turn - humans. But Daniel and Rodney never questioned the destruction of the Wraith. For this, I have lost much respect for both (although I really don't know Daniel, so this is my first exposure to him).

              Instead of considering the extinction of an ENTIRE species, they are only concerned about saving their own lives (McKay, specifically). One life, maybe two, at the forfeit of an entire species.

              Where is the morality in that? Where is the morality in humans as they are portrayed in SGA? I've heard more protest on their part over the fate of Fran - a FREAKIN' MACHINE - than what is to become of an entire race of living, breathing beings.

              And before you start with the 'but the Wraith eat people', just remember that the Wraith never want the extinction of the human race...instead, they want and need to coexist with humans. However, the humans don't even want to try to save the Wraith unless it's to their (human) benefit, as Shep & Co. keep reminding Todd, "We're NOT doing this for YOU, we're doing it for US." (Todd, on the other hand, often points out that his ideas are for the benefit of both human and Wraith alike.)

              Moments like this just make me dislike the human characters even more. Not one twinge of conscience over killing an entire species, even as they work with that species in an 'attempt' to save them. Meanwhile, Todd's back on the Daedalus, struggling with issues that the therapy will raise.

              In this light, I DO believe Todd was betrayed. Not by purposeful action, but by sheer ignorance on the part of Rodney and Daniel, who would rather save their own necks while aiding a new, unknown enemy in the destruction of an entire species (or, at the very least, a current ally) that is making an attempt to find peaceful coexistence. Todd was absolutely right...it WAS a betrayal. Shame on Jackson and McKay for lacking the moral fiber to just say 'no'.

              das
              Some fair points.

              My question is this: why be worried over morality with the Wraith, but not with the Ori?

              I don't recall a big philosophical discussion or any amount of soul-searching among SG-1 when it was decided to send Merlin's weapon through the supergate.

              There are differences between to two, obviously, perhaps most notably the point you make about Keller trying to modify their genetics so that they don't need to feed on humans, BUT the Wraith had been and are currently a scourge in Pegasus.

              I would have liked to have Daniel mention it, but I'm not disappointed that he didn't.

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                #8
                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                One thing that really bothered me with this episode is that - when Rodney and Daniel realized how the device worked - they never once questioned the morality of destroying the Wraith, even as Todd was working with Keller to try to save his kind from the necessity of such a destruction.

                In contrast, Todd had a moral conflict with what he was doing, questioning whether it was the correct course for his kind, realizing that many (or most) Wraith may balk at doing something that is of benefit to humans. At least Todd saw the moral issue, and how it would affect Wraith, and - in turn - humans. But Daniel and Rodney never questioned the destruction of the Wraith. For this, I have lost much respect for both (although I really don't know Daniel, so this is my first exposure to him).

                Instead of considering the extinction of an ENTIRE species, they are only concerned about saving their own lives (McKay, specifically). One life, maybe two, at the forfeit of an entire species.

                Where is the morality in that? Where is the morality in humans as they are portrayed in SGA? I've heard more protest on their part over the fate of Fran - a FREAKIN' MACHINE - than what is to become of an entire race of living, breathing beings.

                And before you start with the 'but the Wraith eat people', just remember that the Wraith never want the extinction of the human race...instead, they want and need to coexist with humans. However, the humans don't even want to try to save the Wraith unless it's to their (human) benefit, as Shep & Co. keep reminding Todd, "We're NOT doing this for YOU, we're doing it for US." (Todd, on the other hand, often points out that his ideas are for the benefit of both human and Wraith alike.)

                Moments like this just make me dislike the human characters even more. Not one twinge of conscience over killing an entire species, even as they work with that species in an 'attempt' to save them. Meanwhile, Todd's back on the Daedalus, struggling with issues that the therapy will raise.

                In this light, I DO believe Todd was betrayed. Not by purposeful action, but by sheer ignorance on the part of Rodney and Daniel, who would rather save their own necks while aiding a new, unknown enemy in the destruction of an entire species (or, at the very least, a current ally) that is making an attempt to find peaceful coexistence. Todd was absolutely right...it WAS a betrayal. Shame on Jackson and McKay for lacking the moral fiber to just say 'no'.

                das
                You make some excellent points but this has been the theme since the first season. The tpb don't even write the characters showing remorse over their own either. When have you seen anyone show any kind of sadness or remorse at the loss of any lives besides the team or the lead members of the expedition.

                At least Daniel had a half hearted attempt at saying no but McKay was just too intent of saving himself, a trait he displayed in Millers Crossing as well. If he had offered to try and help Wallace'd daughter then the whole thing may not have ended as badly. The team are allowed to sink pretty low and cross many moral lines but it's all in the name of the greater good or so we are told, but when the enemy do it they are the evil bad guys.

                Look at Koyla.. he stormed Atlantis because he wanted the technology in order to help his people. Sure it was wrong but again he was desparate.. we have seen what Sheppard can do when he is desparate.. could this be Sheppard in a few years time. Weir accused Koyla of crossing a line when he fed Shep to the Wraith but then Shep goes and does the exact same thing when he wanted to help someone he cared about....

                But the writers have always shown that the team will do anything to survive and if that means betraying their enemies at a drop of a hat then they will. .. even though they didnt intentionally betray Todd, I still believe that they would do it intentionally if it meant getting rid of the Wraith... irrrespective of the fact that they have chosen to work with them.

                It's always been disappointing the lack of moral conflict our team and the people from earth have shown when it comes to distroying a race of people, or anyone in fact who threatens them... look what they did to Michael but yet they still justify it... would they have justified it if it had been someone from the team who was experimentated on by the Wraith...

                I can understand the team having to go to the dark side occasionally and doing some dubious things but my problem is that they never ever admit that they have crossed a line, that's why I will always hate Millers Crossing. If Sheppard had admitted he had crossed a line and did it to save a friend I would not have had such a problem with it, but the fact that he just shrugged off any responsibilty irks me, but it's the same with most of the actions the team have taken over the years.
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                  #9
                  Excellent input, everyone. I'm at work, so can't make any detailed replies right now, but to add to my original thoughts, and some that you have made, I think what annoyed me most was how McKay and Daniel seemed more 'excited' over the machine, than concerned about the effects of it.

                  It's one thing to go, "Wow. This thing can wipe out all the Wraith. That's really deep when you think about it...' *reflectively looks into space*

                  But quite another to go, "Wow. This thing can wipe out all the Wraith! Brilliant!"

                  The latter was the impression I got. Of course, McKay is usually all hyper about new discoveries and all, but I still can't forgive the fact that he didn't even stop to question the morality of it, and of what he was about to do.

                  das
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                    #10
                    The only moral question you need to answer is who's lives you value more, Wraith or Human? Because that's what it boils down to, while Keller is perfecting a retro virus Wraith are killing Humans out of necessity. If you value Humans over Wraith then the answer is simple, use the device, it's not a difficult choice, it's their duty as Humans. I'm sure their lack of concern was due to the fact that they've already contemplated this sort of dilemma years ago, Daniel more than once, and as things stand it's an us or them situation, it doesn't take much thinking about.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by jenks View Post
                      The only moral question you need to answer is who's lives you value more, Wraith or Human? Because that's what it boils down to, while Keller is perfecting a retro virus Wraith are killing Humans out of necessity. If you value Humans over Wraith then the answer is simple, use the device, it's not a difficult choice, it's their duty as Humans. I'm sure their lack of concern was due to the fact that they've already contemplated this sort of dilemma years ago, Daniel more than once, and as things stand it's an us or them situation, it doesn't take much thinking about.
                      Who makes the choice which life is of more value? If man makes that choice, doesn't that set him up as God, determining who should live, and who should die? This is what I have a real problem with, this 'god complex' that the humans assume (it's one reason I stopped watching Star Trek Voyager, because Janeway had the same complex), determining that they deserve to live more than others.

                      It is just rather disturbing that these 'gods' are set up as the heroes, never questioning their own actions when it comes to the lives they are taking. The Wraith fall into a different category since they feed in order to survive, and do not live by human standards. But humans, who are always preaching morality and ethical treatment of others, fail to practice what they force down the throat of others. They want the Wraith to stop killing, but are unwilling to do the same themselves, even when an alternative may have been found.

                      das
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by jenks View Post
                        The only moral question you need to answer is who's lives you value more, Wraith or Human? Because that's what it boils down to, while Keller is perfecting a retro virus Wraith are killing Humans out of necessity. If you value Humans over Wraith then the answer is simple, use the device, it's not a difficult choice, it's their duty as Humans. I'm sure their lack of concern was due to the fact that they've already contemplated this sort of dilemma years ago, Daniel more than once, and as things stand it's an us or them situation, it doesn't take much thinking about.
                        I would be more concerned over a technologically advanced species that suddenly finds itself without the need to feed on humans. Why would you put the whole galaxy at risk for mass enslavement or destruction? It would be the goa'uld all over again.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Franklyn Blaze View Post
                          I would be more concerned over a technologically advanced species that suddenly finds itself without the need to feed on humans. Why would you put the whole galaxy at risk for mass enslavement or destruction? It would be the goa'uld all over again.
                          This is a good point.

                          A while ago I made this argument - that the Wraith keep a balance in the Pegasus Galaxy. Yes, they feed on humans, but at the same time, they allow human populations to flourish for hundreds of years while they sleep. We now know that there are many other advanced societies that haven't been touched by the Wraith, so it's not like humans were unable to progress. Also, the Wraith didn't enslave humans, but allowed them freedom to develop their societies, just as long as they didn't become too powerful. What would have happened if they did become powerful? Well, judging by earth, the humans would have started to engage in war among each other - it is our nature, unfortunately, to be greedy for power, and there isn't a race on the planet today that has not shed innocent blood in the name of war. It would be no different for the humans in the PG.

                          So, in effect, the Wraith ensured human survival, simply because of their needs. They prevented over-population that leads to war, famine, pollution and disease. They were, in a way, wildlife managers, keeping their human 'herds' alive and healthy, because they needed them. Take that need away, and the Wraith will have no reason to keep humans alive. They better rethink this gene therapy - quick! (Of course, this could be an attempt by TPTB to get rid of us Wraith fans by making the Wraith less sympathetic 'villains'. Won't work. )


                          das
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                            #14
                            Not sure why Rodney never had an issue with wiping out an entire race.

                            Daniel's sense of morals went out the window when he had no issues wiping out the entire race of Ori.

                            What's one more race to bit the dust for Daniel?

                            Rodney? Well, maybe he was too concerned with not being on the top of the food chain?
                            Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                              Who makes the choice which life is of more value? If man makes that choice, doesn't that set him up as God, determining who should live, and who should die? This is what I have a real problem with, this 'god complex' that the humans assume (it's one reason I stopped watching Star Trek Voyager, because Janeway had the same complex), determining that they deserve to live more than others.
                              Value to us? We do, no one else can.

                              It is just rather disturbing that these 'gods' are set up as the heroes, never questioning their own actions when it comes to the lives they are taking. The Wraith fall into a different category since they feed in order to survive, and do not live by human standards. But humans, who are always preaching morality and ethical treatment of others, fail to practice what they force down the throat of others. They want the Wraith to stop killing, but are unwilling to do the same themselves, even when an alternative may have been found.
                              There's nothing immoral about wanting to live. It's got nothing to do with a God complex, it's about being forced to choose between your species and another. The Humans of the Pegasus galaxy have got as much right to kill Wraith in order to continue their own existence as the Wraith do to feed on Humans to carry on theirs. In the absence of another option, it's a simple matter of us or them, and it's only reasonable that we'd choose 'us'.

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