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View Full Version : They should have used the Attero device to win the war.



YutheGreat
September 30th, 2008, 06:57 AM
After much consideration, I think the Ancients should have used the Attero device to defeat the Wraith. I mean before discovering the "side effect" I thought that the Wraith can still cull using darts and stargates. After seeing the side effect I admit that it is pretty devastating but it dawned on me that the Ancients should have disabled the gate system with a virus like Avenger. They hit every stargate except those in Ancient control. This will prevent the Stargates from exploding and prevent collateral damage and paralyze the Wraith completely.

They keep the device active at random and intermittent intervals it will keep the Wraith off balance and prime for the final take down.

Stormtrooper
September 30th, 2008, 07:19 AM
Indeed. Kudos to the writers for making the Ancients look more and more stupid...

andromeda_dan
September 30th, 2008, 07:29 AM
not a good idea. The ancients may not have a clue as to how to do a simultaneous shut down of the gate system, first of all, and even if they can, the moment a connection beteween 2 gates is made, the build up of energy that will eventually lead to the over-load will have started. Just imagine what the effects are if a simultaneous connection to multitudes of gates can have. This accidental discovery maybe what gave Anubis the idea to use against the SGC.

Anubis-
September 30th, 2008, 07:29 AM
Even when they disabled the gatesystem, wraith can turn gatesystem back on line, like Sam with his friend do. And for evil they are, they can dial gate for fun that planet will destroyed.

Xaeden
September 30th, 2008, 08:16 AM
Yeah, based on the dialogue over the Avenger virus, all one should need to undo it was a DHD that was never infected, a Stargate that still works because it didn't have a DHD in the first place, and a basic knowledge of how the gate system works. Well, the Wraith had uninfected DHDs on their darts, they had working Spacegates throughout the galaxy, and not only do they seem to have that understanding of the gate system, but they are quite adept with computer viruses. For all we know, the Ancients might've tried to use something like that earlier in the was a way of limiting Wraith as much as they could and the Wraith had already found a way around it, so they knew it wouldn't work a second time. Plus, there's the possibility that the Stargates overloading was the least of the side effects, so we'll have to wait and see what happens in the next episode.

Pegasus_SGA
September 30th, 2008, 08:18 AM
After much consideration, I think the Ancients should have used the Attero device to defeat the Wraith. I mean before discovering the "side effect" I thought that the Wraith can still cull using darts and stargates. After seeing the side effect I admit that it is pretty devastating but it dawned on me that the Ancients should have disabled the gate system with a virus like Avenger. They hit every stargate except those in Ancient control. This will prevent the Stargates from exploding and prevent collateral damage and paralyze the Wraith completely.

They keep the device active at random and intermittent intervals it will keep the Wraith off balance and prime for the final take down.
i'm having a moment of madness, but did we ever find out what the side effects really were? :D

g.o.d
September 30th, 2008, 08:22 AM
not a good idea. The ancients may not have a clue as to how to do a simultaneous shut down of the gate system, first of all, and even if they can, the moment a connection beteween 2 gates is made, the build up of energy that will eventually lead to the over-load will have started. Just imagine what the effects are if a simultaneous connection to multitudes of gates can have. This accidental discovery maybe what gave Anubis the idea to use against the SGC.

it's lame. You're telling me that the gatebuilders didn't know how shut down stargates?

they could have easily shutted the entire system down and after that activated the attero device. Wait few weeks, do a recon missions to know how many hives have been destroyed and destroy rest of them. Quite easy and with their technology, even more easier

g.o.d
September 30th, 2008, 08:26 AM
i'm having a moment of madness, but did we ever find out what the side effects really were? :D

in the next episode

active stargates go kaboom

Pegasus_SGA
September 30th, 2008, 08:32 AM
in the next episode

active stargates go kaboom
Ahh thanks hon, i'd say that's more than a side effect. :lol:

dasNdanger
September 30th, 2008, 08:33 AM
After much consideration, I think the Ancients should have used the Attero device to defeat the Wraith. I mean before discovering the "side effect" I thought that the Wraith can still cull using darts and stargates. After seeing the side effect I admit that it is pretty devastating but it dawned on me that the Ancients should have disabled the gate system with a virus like Avenger. They hit every stargate except those in Ancient control. This will prevent the Stargates from exploding and prevent collateral damage and paralyze the Wraith completely.

They keep the device active at random and intermittent intervals it will keep the Wraith off balance and prime for the final take down.


And imagine the galaxy without the Wraith.

Imagine the Ancients ruling all...with their dull personalities, and their bland attire, and their absolute lack of a sense of humor. Imagine their continued experimentation with science, the same science that manipulated cultures in The Game, or created the nanovirus in Hot Zone. A boring, rigid, pompous culture, yet just as dangerous - if no more so - than the Wraith.

The Wraith, on the other hand, embrace nature in their technology. The interior of their ships are an array of color and light, textured and layered and alive. They have an eye for beauty and personal adornment, they have style and personality and a sense of humor. MUCH more interesting to watch for 45 minutes compared to the sterile Ancients.

So, had the Ancients won the war, then you would be watching them, week after week, droning on and on about how wonderful they are and how they must ascend because that makes them even better...and the show wouldn't have lasted a season.

So, thank god the Wraith won! At least we get to enjoy their sleek, coolio ships and spiffy leather coats and long, silken locks...and even a joke or two! None of that would have been if the Ancients had defeated them all those years ago. So, I say - long live the Wraith! And down with anyone who tries to stop them... *glares daggers at the 'new race' *


das

JackHarkness_Hot
September 30th, 2008, 08:41 AM
Okay, you are a Wraith worshipper, admit it, das! :P

Storywise, they could have disabled the Stargates, if the Wraith keep enabling the gate, send a command and load a self-destruct program and destroy all the gates. Then activate the Attero device, the Wraith will then be on their knees, if they don't go and escape or make peace, they will be killed by the Ancients, if they do go by using their hyperspace engines, they will equally be killed by the Ancients. Then after all the Wraith are dead or surrendered, the Ancients could reinstate the gate and DHD or replant gates throughout the galaxy again.

But I doubt the council had such a mentality to pursue such plan.

Xaeden
September 30th, 2008, 08:50 AM
it's lame. You're telling me that the gatebuilders didn't know how shut down stargates?

For security reasons it's totally believable that they wouldn't build the gate network with a shutdown command hard-coded into every Stargate. In which case the only way to shut them down would be by using the DHD's correlative updates and with so many Stargates not attached to DHDs, it would be impossible to shut down every gate that way.

g.o.d
September 30th, 2008, 09:03 AM
For security reasons it's totally believable that they wouldn't build the gate network with a shutdown command hard-coded into every Stargate. In which case the only way to shut them down would be by using the DHD's correlative updates and with so many Stargates not attached to DHDs, it would be impossible to shut down every gate that way.

Atlantis gate/DHD is only one capable of dialing Earth. It wouldn't be problem if Atlantis DHD would be capable of shutting down the entire stargate system.

dasNdanger
September 30th, 2008, 09:08 AM
Okay, you are a Wraith worshipper, admit it, das! :P


Through and through, and dang proud of it! The Wraith have what the Ancients never will - they have PIZZAZZ!!! :D


das

Xaeden
September 30th, 2008, 09:26 AM
Atlantis gate/DHD is only one capable of dialing Earth. It wouldn't be problem if Atlantis DHD would be capable of shutting down the entire stargate system.

That's a nice security measure, but it isn't infallible. It might still be possible for someone to hack a gate and find a way to bypass its security measures so they can either get the 8th chervon to lock or so they could shut down the entire system without needing Atlantis' DHD. And without needing a ZPM level power source and gate addresses, it's quite a bit more feasible for someone to activate a shutdown command through that method than it is for them to access another gate network.

Plus, there's an issue of wanting to protect the gate network from other Ancients. Making a copy of such a crystal would be something other Ancients could do and so it wouldn't be that hard for one of them to shut the entire network down if they wanted to. In "Harmony" we saw that they protected their research from their own kind and while it might've been for a harmless reason (like Humans with the gene suddenly popping up around this time) it's also possible they were worried that they'd be betrayed or that one of them would fold under torture and help their enemy.

Jeffala
September 30th, 2008, 09:33 AM
The Atlantean Council probably never even knew about the Attero Device. How would they use it if they didn't know about it? Sure they probably knew that over the course of three days a few Wraith ships exploded and so did any stargates that happened to be functioning but they likely never knew why.

If Janus never brought it to them, then he most likely never figured out how to undo the side-effects. And Janus, being an arrogant Lantean, probably figured that if he couldn't figure out the problem, then neither could anyone else.

JackHarkness_Hot
September 30th, 2008, 09:46 AM
I doubt the Council knew of such technology as well.

g.o.d
September 30th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I have to admit, they didn't use ark, didn't use grail, so honestly I doubt, they would have used attero device. They deserved to die for their arrogance and incompetence.

JackHarkness_Hot
September 30th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Spoken like a true god.. g.o.d :lol:

The Ancients did believe in free-will a lot.

andromeda_dan
September 30th, 2008, 11:54 AM
the problem created by Janus' contraption is not something that can be fixed by uploading a program into a DHD, the device most likely have messed up some law of physics that created the energy build-up. The avenger was a program designed to filter into the DHD system and update the software after it has created a connection, while the energy over-load issue was generated by a machine that can spread the effects thru the gate system when a wornhole is created. Just imagine a sink drain. Turn the faucet on, and water starts flowing down the drain and thru the pipe system. You can put a plug (shield or iris with reference to the gate) on the other end to keep the water (energy) from going thru, but it won't stop the running water and pressure from building up, the water will need to be shut-off from the source.

Prior_of_the_Ori
September 30th, 2008, 12:28 PM
One also has to consider that:
when the Attero device was created its quite likely it was made in secret near the end of the war with the Wraith and once deactivated, the Ancients were forced to leave the galaxy before Janus had any chance to fix any problems with it like something as grand as shutting down the entire gate network.

SoulReaver
September 30th, 2008, 01:29 PM
in the next episode

active stargates go kaboomthat's one hell of a "side effect"


/!\ warning /!\ read entire notice before using device, discontinue use if your planet goes boom

jenks
September 30th, 2008, 01:34 PM
Indeed. Kudos to the writers for making the Ancients look more and more stupid...

Morality is relative, you can't apply our idea of right and wrong and apply it to a group of aliens.

SoulReaver
September 30th, 2008, 01:37 PM
The Wraith have what the Ancients never will - they have PIZZAZZ!!! :Dhttp://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/non.gif only 4 wraith are known to have pizzas : Raphael, Donatello, Michaelangelo & Leonardo. also these wraiths are green & are not wraith

YutheGreat
September 30th, 2008, 02:38 PM
People are having an issue with the avenger idea. I said something like Avenger. THe ANcient have this supposed infinite bastion of knowledge surely they would be able to create another more effective means of achieving this.

If Ancients use Avenger There was someone who said the Wraith could fight Avenger. They probably could but to fight avenger; they first need to locate the original DHD infected because the gate system address is still stored there. This presents two problems:
First If they find it they need to get there to fix it.
Second it should be in a heavily fortified ancient planet. The kind they need an armada of hiveships.

Someone said the Wraith have uninfeced one in their ships it can't be the correlative update is required to make them work.

Stormtrooper
September 30th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Morality is relative, you can't apply our idea of right and wrong and apply it to a group of aliens.

Morality has nothing to do with stupidity.

Xaeden
September 30th, 2008, 03:42 PM
they first need to locate the original DHD infected because the gate system address is still stored there. This presents two problems:
First If they find it they need to get there to fix it.
Second it should be in a heavily fortified ancient planet. The kind they need an armada of hiveships.

They shouldn't need to deal with the original source of infection like Sg-1 did. The reason Sg-1 had to do that was because it was the least complicated way. Originally, though, they were planning to try to convert one DHD back to the old system by creating a translation program. However, they could only do this by finding a gate with a changed address and comparing it to the old one. For them this meant randomly dialing the gate - For the Wraith this would've been easier because they could've used their extensive knowledge of planatary locations to figure out which gate moved far enough since the last update so its address would be new and then comparing what its address was to what it would be now.

But, that's assuming they don't come up with their own plan and, personally, I think it's more likely that they could create their own virus which would would activate the correlative update and attack the original virus in each DHD.


Someone said the Wraith have uninfeced one in their ships it can't be the correlative update is required to make them work.

No, the idea is to use their remote DHD to dial a planet with a DHD and upload the changes into that one. At which point its correlative update program would've been activated just like it was activated when the virus made the initial change.

Of course, in retrospect, this wouldn't work if the Attero device destroys both the gate that dialed out and the gate that was dialed to (which I think it does since the idea is that it overloads active gates) since the gate that they dialed to would need the gate to shut down in order to upload the program. But if that wasn't the case then it would lead to a chain reaction which would destroy every gate in the network and if it isn't the case, the Wraith still have another option. They could tell the Ancients that for every so-and-so period of time that the Attero device remains active, they are going to dial a Spacegate to the most heavily populated planet they can think of and if the Ancients try to stop them by coming in ships, the Spacegate would be dialed as soon as they spotted them exiting hyperspace.

jenks
September 30th, 2008, 03:45 PM
Morality has nothing to do with stupidity.

And the decision they made had nothing to do with stupidity either, they obviously didn't use it on moral grounds, not incompetence.

GateofDOOM
September 30th, 2008, 06:56 PM
And imagine the galaxy without the Wraith.

Imagine the Ancients ruling all...with their dull personalities, and their bland attire, and their absolute lack of a sense of humor. Imagine their continued experimentation with science, the same science that manipulated cultures in The Game, or created the nanovirus in Hot Zone. A boring, rigid, pompous culture, yet just as dangerous - if no more so - than the Wraith.

The Wraith, on the other hand, embrace nature in their technology. The interior of their ships are an array of color and light, textured and layered and alive. They have an eye for beauty and personal adornment, they have style and personality and a sense of humor. MUCH more interesting to watch for 45 minutes compared to the sterile Ancients.

So, had the Ancients won the war, then you would be watching them, week after week, droning on and on about how wonderful they are and how they must ascend because that makes them even better...and the show wouldn't have lasted a season.

So, thank god the Wraith won! At least we get to enjoy their sleek, coolio ships and spiffy leather coats and long, silken locks...and even a joke or two! None of that would have been if the Ancients had defeated them all those years ago. So, I say - long live the Wraith! And down with anyone who tries to stop them... *glares daggers at the 'new race' *


das

The replicators made that virus. :)

And that is the reason why I wish that episode had never happened....because it set up the Replicators. :mckay:


But the ancients did make the stupid replicators!! ;)

Stormtrooper
September 30th, 2008, 08:00 PM
And the decision they made had nothing to do with stupidity either, they obviously didn't use it on moral grounds, not incompetence.

They weren't incompetent, they were just stupid (and coward). They had the tools to beat the Wraith, but decided not to, leaving billions of human beings behind (their creation) to be eaten by the Wraith. Masters of morality indeed :-\

jenks
September 30th, 2008, 08:32 PM
They weren't incompetent, they were just stupid (and coward). They had the tools to beat the Wraith, but decided not to, leaving billions of human beings behind (their creation) to be eaten by the Wraith. Masters of morality indeed :-\

You're going around in a circle. They're not stupid, they made their decision based on moral grounds, morality is relative, and like I've said you can't apply our morals to a group of aliens. For them maybe killing is a worse crime than allowing people to be killed, we'd probably disagree, but neither of us would be right because in the grand scheme of things there is no such thing a good and evil/right and wrong, it's just an abstract construct.

Giantevilhead
September 30th, 2008, 10:29 PM
Couldn't they just turn the Attero device on a few seconds at a time and shut it down before the gates start to overload?

Jeffala
September 30th, 2008, 11:18 PM
Couldn't they just turn the Attero device on a few seconds at a time and shut it down before the gates start to overload?

But the length of time that the device is operational isn't the problem. Any (anywhere from 1 second to 1,000 years) time that the device is operational and someone dials a gate, that gate will explode.

And I doubt that there would be accurate enough intelligence to activate the device just as Wraith ships were about to jump to hyperspace and then shut it down.



What I'm wondering is if the gate that Atlantis dialed exploded as well. If the side-effect destroys any active gate, then at least two exploded. I hope the target gate wasn't near a population center. :-/

ussrelativity
September 30th, 2008, 11:43 PM
I have to admit, they didn't use ark, didn't use grail, so honestly I doubt, they would have used attero device. They deserved to die for their arrogance and incompetence.

I agree 100%. I believe the Atlanteans were rather foolish.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 04:25 AM
I agree 100%. I believe the Atlanteans were rather foolish.
So if a race disagrees with you, every single member of that race must die, even if they're not currently or quite possibly will never be a threat to you?

Todd, after all, was willing to at least try the treatment out. Ellia was essentially a good child, she only fed for survival. Kyana or whatever he name was fell in love with Jonas, decided to betray Ba'al and eventually sacrificed herself for the sake of mere humans. We don't know anything about the Ori because we pretty much only got to see two (or quite possibly just the one).

But since they were all Wraith, Goa'uld and Ori, I guess hitting a giant kill switch to kill them all regardless of past or future crimes is warranted.

The Wraith don't even kill for sport (except for the Hunters, but they're just bad Wraith) or for fun. They feed for survival with death being a side effect. So the Ancients were to kill them all for merely wanting to survive?

If 1 Spaniard attacks you, you're allowed to fight them in self-defense. If 100 Spaniards attack you, you're allowed to kill them all because it's much too risky to try to simply subdue them. If 1,000 Spaniards attack, the same. What you cannot do is nuke Spain or release a poison which will genetically kill anyone with Spanish genes in them.

That is genocide.

ussrelativity
October 1st, 2008, 04:38 AM
And can the same be said for the Asurans?

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 04:40 AM
And can the same be said for the Asurans?
The Asurans were, as a race, eterminating other humans in the galaxy and attacking the expedition. It wasn't just a few Asurans doing it. They were doing it as one, which is understandable since they shared a consciousness.

They posed an immediate threat to everyone.

The Asurans who didn't agree were hunted down and killed by the others or currently on the run.

The Wraith back in the Ancients' days were just feeding. And some of them chose to go to war with the Ancients. Those were free game.

ussrelativity
October 1st, 2008, 04:45 AM
Yes, and the efforts against the Asurans were quite more extensive, sending their 304s out taking out their ships one by one. The expedition didn't do that with the Wraith, while more worlds are being culled.

Xaeden
October 1st, 2008, 04:54 AM
The Asurans who didn't agree were hunted down and killed by the others or currently on the run.

Can you be so sure that there weren't any good ones still on Asura when they attacked it? What about those who disagreed, but felt that it was too dangerous to go off on their own? They never addressed the possibility of such Asurans existing, but it stands to reason not everyone fell into one of two distinct camps.


The Wraith back in the Ancients' days were just feeding. And some of them chose to go to war with the Ancients. Those were free game.

The device, if it worked as intended, would've crippled ships which, as far as we know, were all considered military targets and thus free game to the Ancients. Even if there were Wraith with different ideals running around on a few ships, it's not like the Ancients would've stopped and asked them what they believed before being attacked, so with or without the device they were targets to be destroyed if encountered. If the device did to the Wraith what the Dakara device did to the replicators, then I would tend to agree with you. But I don't see it as genocide to cripple all enemy ships and one by one take them out until they are so weakened that the Wraith surrender.

wkw427
October 1st, 2008, 05:07 AM
They should of disabled all gates with the virus and turned it on.

Even if the wraith get the gates working, they have a nice surprise when the gate goes all boomy on them

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 11:06 AM
Yes, and the efforts against the Asurans were quite more extensive, sending their 304s out taking out their ships one by one. The expedition didn't do that with the Wraith, while more worlds are being culled.
The Wraith cull for survival. The Asurans killed because they liked it (or whatever). The Wraith are not a current threat to either the expedition or to the worlds they cull (unless you're gonna kill someone simply for their inability to survive on anything other than a certain kind of food you'd prefer be left alone).

They're current embroiled in a civil war and not a single Wraith Hive has actively gone after the expedition for years now. Thus, they are not a direct threat to the expedition.


Can you be so sure that there weren't any good ones still on Asura when they attacked it? What about those who disagreed, but felt that it was too dangerous to go off on their own? They never addressed the possibility of such Asurans existing, but it stands to reason not everyone fell into one of two distinct camps.
The number of bad vs. good ones were obviously overwhelming. It's a case of sacrificing a few vs. the survival of many. The Asurans possess a shared consciousness.

If "goodness" is detected, your consciousness will either be overwritten or you will be hunted down and killed (as we were told last season). There were also only a small number of dissidents, which we were also told last season. Thus, the number of those who opposed the war against humanity was small and classifiable as collateral damage.

It's not a perfect world, we cannot just ask them "Which ones disagree" and trust them to be truthful.


The device, if it worked as intended, would've crippled ships which, as far as we know, were all considered military targets and thus free game to the Ancients.
I'm sorry, in what alternate reality have we seen, read or heard about the Ancients flying around blasting random Hives out of the sky simply for existing?

And crippled how? I mean, they're at civil war. They want the others to die. So tons of Wraith would die just because they didn't know and used their hyperdrives.

And who would tell the others and how? Once your ship is blown out of the sky, you're dead. Those left surviving in other ships, how are they to tell others through space? By going to a gated planet, gating somewhere close to another Hive (by guessing their location) and telling them to not use their Hyperdrives?

Communication in space is limited in range. Tons of Wraith will have died before the Wraith even wised up.

This coupled with the fact that the Lanteans are currently working with several Wraith hives on a peaceful solution. To then just go "Oops, you're dead" and betray their entire race, that's not kosher.


Even if there were Wraith with different ideals running around on a few ships, it's not like the Ancients would've stopped and asked them what they believed before being attacked, so with or without the device they were targets to be destroyed if encountered. If the device did to the Wraith what the Dakara device did to the replicators, then I would tend to agree with you. But I don't see it as genocide to cripple all enemy ships and one by one take them out until they are so weakened that the Wraith surrender.
The Ancients would only engage Wraith in self-defense. If a Hive was doing nothing but existing, the Ancients wouldn't have hunted them down and blown them out of the sky.

It's genocide for what I just said. It'd take the death of many Wraith before word got out enough so that no Wraith ship would engage their Hyperdrives.

And that's if enough Wraith are even alive to know about the Attero device. Not everyone would immediately recognize its effects, I'm sure.

And I'm sorry, what would the Wraith surrender to, exactly? To surrender to the Ancients would've meant certain death through starvation. The Ancients didn't have magical retroviri to transform the Wraith. The only two choices would be:
a) Quick and essentially painless death through explosions
b) Slow and painful death through starvation

Jeffala
October 1st, 2008, 11:29 AM
The Wraith cull for survival.

But they enjoy it a bit too much.

And what of Runners? That's not required for survival.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 11:36 AM
But they enjoy it a bit too much.
Yeah, and? They should all be killed for... enjoying eating?

It's also for survival. Allowing yourself to feel sorry for your food is not in your best interest. Why do dog owners not eat dogs? Why do horse-riders not eat horse? Why do some become vegetarians due to a love of animals?

Humans can afford this as we can just become vegetarians or vegans and take supplemental pills if we're lacking in nourishment. The Wraith can't. They can only survive on humans.

They have to keep that distance, to treat humans like animals, to not feel sorry for them. Allowing themselves to question their only means of survival is good for their self-preservation.

And, still, enjoying eating too much is not a good reason for genocide. What part of it is so reprehensible, anyway? The fact that they just like feeding, that it feels good for them? Yes, horrible.

The Wraith don't even feed just for fun like we do (we sometimes eat more than we need to, we also waste food and we sometimes eat "just for fun"). They only feed when they need to. Why? Because doing otherwise would be wasteful due to their limited food supply (and this was true millions of years ago).


And what of Runners? That's not required for survival.
At the time of Ronon's capture, only 7 or so transmitters are active and it was even stated that they couldn't be sure all of them were runners. In other words, it's not a widely practiced sport and not on a wide scale.

Kill the entire race for the crimes of a small minority? Quick, nuke Alaska now for Sarah Palin's support on helicopter hunting.

Jeffala
October 1st, 2008, 11:52 AM
Humans can afford this as we can just become vegetarians or vegans and take supplemental pills if we're lacking in nourishment. The Wraith can't. They can only survive on humans.

Then what should be done if Keller's modification works and Wraith can be made to digest normal food yet some refuse? Should they be allowed to kill sentients because they choose to? They wouldn't have to to survive, they would choose to.

Integrabyte
October 1st, 2008, 11:55 AM
This like Arcturus was a failure. The first one destroyed a solar system, this one will destroy more :P. The Ancients liked big bangs :D.


I love how TPTB ridiculed the Ancients once more ...

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 11:55 AM
Then what should be done if Keller's modification works and Wraith can be made to digest normal food yet some refuse? Should they be allowed to kill sentients because they choose to? They wouldn't have to to survive, they would choose to.
If it worked with absolutely no side effects (such as, say, taking away their longevity, which would in essence be killing them. Would you choose to stop eating meat if your body was dependent on it and not doing so would limit your lifespan to 10 years?), then it'd be perfectly morally acceptable to kill the Wraith who, after negotiations and attempts to convince them persist.

This would take time, however. You can't just drop a galaxy-shattering bomb like this and expect everyone to agree to it overnight. If diplomatic talks to try to win them over failed after several months if not a year, then they're free game.

This isn't just a change in their diet, it's a change in their entire culture. Up until the Atlantis expedition arrived, they'd spent millions years doing the following:
* Feed
* Fly around for a bit
* Hibernate

That was their culture. This changed to:
* Feed
* Fly around for a bit
* Civil war and warring with the Lanteans

With this new change, it'd change to:
* Fly around for a bit

And that's it. Their entire raison d'être would change, their culture would change, they'd have to find a new purpose in life. This is not to say their current purpose is all peachy but it's a change to pretty much all there is to being a Wraith.

So you can't just go "Here, take it now or die!". You have to negotiate over a period of time.


This like Arcturus was a failure. The first one destroyed a solar system, this one will destroy more :P. The Ancients liked big bangs :D.
A Stargate exploding is the equivalent of 12 nuclear bombs. It's enough to blow up a large chunk of a planet or quite possibly an entire planet, but not enough to blow up an entire solar system or even 3/5ths of one.

Xaeden
October 1st, 2008, 11:59 AM
If "goodness" is detected, your consciousness will either be overwritten or you will be hunted down and killed (as we were told last season). There were also only a small number of dissidents, which we were also told last season. Thus, the number of those who opposed the war against humanity was small and classifiable as collateral damage.

We must be watching a different show. They never were shown resetting Asurans just because "goodness" was detected. They reset Niam because he betrayed them and the reason they hunted down the good ones was never well established but I suspect it's a simple case of them not wanting their own kind to break off on their own. However, they were never shown going after their own kind just for having different opinions. So long as they kept in line there didn't seem to be an issue. Thus Niam's people were able to be out in the open about their beliefs and had a voice until they decided that they weren't going to get anywhere. So, there's no reason others couldn't have had a range of beliefs as well that was more than just black and white. Many could've been opposed to the tactics they were using, but they weren't willing to try to run off on their own over it where they would be hunted down. We don't know.


It's not a perfect world, we cannot just ask them "Which ones disagree" and trust them to be truthful.

I agree, that's my point about the Wraith actually.


I'm sorry, in what alternate reality have we seen, read or heard about the Ancients flying around blasting random Hives out of the sky simply for existing?

They were at war. If they spotted a Wraith ship off on their own do you think they wouldn't have attacked it? If they spotted a Wraith ship culling a Human world do you think they would've stopped and asked if they were feeding just because they had to or also because they wanted to gather their strength to help their kind attack the Ancients?


And crippled how? I mean, they're at civil war. They want the others to die. So tons of Wraith would die just because they didn't know and used their hyperdrives.

Crippled in the sense that their hyperdrive engines wouldn't work and so once they wised up they couldn't get anywhere important.


And who would tell the others and how? Once your ship is blown out of the sky, you're dead. Those left surviving in other ships, how are they to tell others through space? By going to a gated planet, gating somewhere close to another Hive (by guessing their location) and telling them to not use their Hyperdrives?

Communication in space is limited in range. Tons of Wraith will have died before the Wraith even wised up.

Well technically they could use Dr. Lee's approach and let all the Wraith in on it by telling the Hives within its range which could tell the Hives within its range. But, of course a lot of Wraith would die off the bat. However, lots of Wraith dying is the goal of winning with military force. My point is that there's not really much of a difference between winning with this device and winning by overwhelming your enemy other than the fact that it's less personal and you're not putting your forces in as much danger. Either way you're not going to be able to kill off the entire Wraith population (there will always be those who survive by hiding in remote locations) and the goal would hopefully be to get the Wraith to surrender (which they're not going to do unless lots of them die). So if it's wrong to win by using the device, then it should be wrong to win by gathering a massive fleet and combating their ships head on.


This coupled with the fact that the Lanteans are currently working with several Wraith hives on a peaceful solution. To then just go "Oops, you're dead" and betray their entire race, that's not kosher.

Well I was talking about the Ancients who didn't have a peaceful solution available to them, but since you brought it up, Earth's plan still involves lots of Wraith deaths. What they're hoping is that they will give Todd an edge to win the civil war by killing so many of his own kind that they unite under him and they are then hoping that he could convince all of them to take the treatment (which I firmly believe cannot be done). With the Attero device a lot of Wraith die off the bat as opposed to after a long and bloody civil war, but you can be assured that the Humans of the galaxy really won't have to worry about them anymore as they could force terms of surrender on them before agreeing to turn off the device. Which includes all Wraith agreeing to take the treatment and the turning over of Wraith knowledge and military capabilities to be sure they don't decide that they want to go after Humans for other reasons and do so without such fierce population restrictions.


The Ancients would only engage Wraith in self-defense. If a Hive was doing nothing but existing, the Ancients wouldn't have hunted them down and blown them out of the sky.

I'm sorry, but that's what Earth does, not what the Ancients did. The Ancients were fighting a war where they utilized both offensive and defensive tactics. Take how they lost those ZPMs used to power the cloning facility, for example - The Ancients were pushing deeper and deeper into Wraith controlled space, not to sit around and wait for the Wraith to attack them, but as part of an offensive assault.


It's genocide for what I just said. It'd take the death of many Wraith before word got out enough so that no Wraith ship would engage their Hyperdrives.

And that's if enough Wraith are even alive to know about the Attero device. Not everyone would immediately recognize its effects, I'm sure.

Are we back to talking about if Earth activates the device because my point was that it was not genocide since all Wraith ships were persumably military targets for the Ancients? You seem to jump around between the situation 10,000 years ago the situation now a few times in your reply.


And I'm sorry, what would the Wraith surrender to, exactly? To surrender to the Ancients would've meant certain death through starvation. The Ancients didn't have magical retroviri to transform the Wraith. The only two choices would be:
a) Quick and essentially painless death through explosions
b) Slow and painful death through starvation

What I would've done is made them agree to forced hibernation until such a time as when the Ancients could find a way to correct their need to feed, but with the promise that the Ancients would put their best people on working on only that. However, that would be up to them. What would they have done if the Wraith didn't win with overwhelming numbers, but instead the Ancients took out the bulk of their fleet and had them backed into a corner? Would they have done what I would've done, would they have pushed on until every Wraith was dead, would they have tried to find some terms for surrender where the Wraith were stripped of their space faring capabilities and forced to only feed on their own kind, or would they have come up with another option (possibly involving mindless clones)? Clearly, they weren't planning to lose the war and retreat back to Earth with a fraction of their population still alive, they were planning to win. So whatever they would've done in that scenario, I don't see why they could not have done the same thing in the case of winning with the Attero device. Again, it has the same exact effect, it's just faster and with less of a cost to your own kind.

Integrabyte
October 1st, 2008, 11:59 AM
A Stargate exploding is the equivalent of 12 nuclear bombs. It's enough to blow up a large chunk of a planet or quite possibly an entire planet, but not enough to blow up an entire solar system or even 3/5ths of one.


See the larger picture. ATM, every gate in the PG dialed will overload. Do the maths.

Stormtrooper
October 1st, 2008, 12:22 PM
You're going around in a circle. They're not stupid, they made their decision based on moral grounds, morality is relative, and like I've said you can't apply our morals to a group of aliens. For them maybe killing is a worse crime than allowing people to be killed, we'd probably disagree, but neither of us would be right because in the grand scheme of things there is no such thing a good and evil/right and wrong, it's just an abstract construct.

Why the drones and the warships then? To me, the Ancients, as they are currently written, are cowards. They cut and run. They fled the Ori, the plague and whoever unleashed it on them, the Wraith, and God knows who else. Even the Asgard, who were pretty much pacifists, stood their ground against the Replicators, while protecting several Milky Way worlds from the Goa'uld in the process. The Ancients, nope. They cut and run.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 12:29 PM
Stuff.
Wait, what? They hunted down and killed those who thought otherwise but only if they didn't "stay in line"?

What would "staying in line" entail? Not pursuing Ascension? So it's OK to be different as long as you don't act on it and do exactly what the collective wants you to?

Niam also specifically said that there is only a small number who share his view. So again, it's still sacrificing a few for the good of millions.


I agree, that's my point about the Wraith actually.
What justification do we have to kill off all Wraith?

Because they feed? They have to for survival. It's especially mucky now that we've devised a tentative cure to their problem. So we're not even giving them the choice to "repent". We're killing them right off.


They were at war. If they spotted a Wraith ship off on their own do you think they wouldn't have attacked it? If they spotted a Wraith ship culling a Human world do you think they would've stopped and asked if they were feeding just because they had to or also because they wanted to gather their strength to help their kind attack the Ancients?
It's the Ancients. The people who eventually Ascended and became the Ascended Ancients with their code of non-interference. The Ancients who left the Wraith alone long enough for them to ever pose a threat to them and eventually win the war.

Yes, I do believe they wouldn't attack a Wraith ship unprovoked. Pray tell, would you kill an Iraqi on the street if you encountered one as the U.S. is currently at war with Iraqi (no matter what the Republicans say, the war is not yet over)?


Crippled in the sense that their hyperdrive engines wouldn't work and so once they wised up they couldn't get anywhere important.
And the thing is: How would they know this unless they used their hyperdrives?


Well technically they could use Dr. Lee's approach and let all the Wraith in on it by telling the Hives within its range which could tell the Hives within its range.
This takes time. During this time, many ships would go all 'splody.


But, of course a lot of Wraith would die off the bat. However, lots of Wraith dying is the goal of winning with military force.
And still, what would they gain from surrendering? If the Ancients flied around demanding surrender, what would the Wraith have to gain from it other than death? There was no magical cure to the feeding problem. They would essentially only be choosing between quick and painless death and slow and painful death.


My point is that there's not really much of a difference between winning with this device and winning by overwhelming your enemy other than the fact that it's less personal and you're not putting your forces in as much danger.
So instead of engaging Saddam's armies in combat, the U.S. should've tactically nuked parts of Iraq 'til Saddam surrendered for fear of other nukes?


Either way you're not going to be able to kill off the entire Wraith population (there will always be those who survive by hiding in remote locations) and the goal would hopefully be to get the Wraith to surrender (which they're not going to do unless lots of them die). So if it's wrong to win by using the device, then it should be wrong to win by gathering a massive fleet and combating their ships head on.
And the question remains: What would they face once they surrendered? That's right, death.


Well I was talking about the Ancients who didn't have a peaceful solution opened to them, but since you brought it up, Earth's plan still involves lots of Wraith deaths. What they're hoping is that they will give Todd an edge to win the civil war by killing so many of his own kind that they unite under him and they are then hoping that he could convince all of them to take the treatment (which I firmly believe cannot be done).
At least we wouldn't be the ones to engage in genocide. And it wouldn't even be genocide, it would be civil war. The Wraith already at war with each other. It's not like Todd would randomly embark on a campaign of murder.

The war is already raging. We would be providing one faction with a solution to their problems to they can gain the upper hand and hopefully convince the others to accept the solution.

If we don't do it, many Wraith will still die at the cost of many humans and at the end, it'll still be the same. The Wraith might even go back to how they used to be and no one would win.

This is just a possible solution. Implementing it will not cost either side extra casualties. In fact, both sides stand to gain from this


With the Attero device a lot of Wraith die off the bat as opposed to after a long and bloody civil war, but you can be assured that the Humans of the galaxy really won't have to worry about them anymore as they could force terms of surrender on them before agreeing to turn off the device.
I was arguing two points: Whether it's morally acceptable to this now and whether it was morally acceptable for the Ancients to do it. For one thing, surrender meant death.

For the Ancients, it's clearly immoral. For us, it's also immoral.


Which includes all Wraith agreeing to take the treatment and the turning over of Wraith knowledge and military capabilities to be sure they don't decide that they want to go after Humans for other reasons and do so without such fierce population restrictions.
We don't even know if the cure works. For all we know, it could have fatal side effects a few months or years down the line. Or they could lose their longevity, thus limiting their lifespans from "forever" to "X number of years", which is pretty bad as well.

Not to mention the moral implications of forcing someone to do as you say. Just because we think our solution is the best doesn't mean it is the best. Neither is it morally acceptable to give your opponents only two choices: Do it or die!

Especially not when it's such a huge choice. Such a change in their entire way of being requires negotiations and diplomatic talks if you want to implement it on a wide scale.


I'm sorry, but that's what Earth does, not what the Ancients did. The Ancients were fighting a war where they utilized both offensive and defensive tactics. Take how they lost those ZPMs used to power the cloning facility, for example - The Ancients were pushing deeper and deeper into Wraith controlled space, not to sit around and wait for the Wraith to attack them, but as part of an offensive assault.
Or the Wraith simply stole them from defeated outposts and/or ships? I mean, your proof of the Ancients running around killing any Wraith they see is that the Wraith got their hands on ZPMs somehow?

Great logic.


Are we back to talking about if Earth activates the device because my point was that it was not genocide since all Wraith ships were persumably military targets for the Ancients? You seem to jump around between the situation 10,000 years ago the situation now a few times in your reply.
Yes, because we're discussing both scenarios in this thread. And you're making the assumptions that the Ancients treated every single Wraith as fair game when there is absolutely no evidence of that while there's actually evidence of the opposite.


What I would've done is made them agree to forced hibernation until such a time as when the Ancients could find a way to correct their need to feed, but with the promise that the Ancients would put their best people on working on only that.
"Go into eternal sleep until we find a solution, now! Why? Because we like the people you feed on!"

This with no guaranteed solution in sight and the fact that they can't hibernate forever, they'll have to eventually go out of hibernation and feed.

Since there were 60 Hives around in 2004 and more planets than that, yet each planet gets culled approximately once every 3 generations, we have to assume that the Wraith can only go without feeding for, say, 50-100 years at a time, max.

And that's not considering that that's no way of living. Eternal sleep with infrequent bouts of feeding just to stay alive and then more sleep with no guaranteed solution.


However, that would be up to them. What would they have done if the Wraith didn't win with overwhelming numbers, but instead the Ancients took out the bulk of their fleet and had them backed into a corner?
At least it'd be victory through outright war. Not genocide.

Tell me, if the government of China declared war on the U.S. tomorrow, would you, as President of the United States, sanction the nuking of several parts of China to force a surrender out of them?


Would they have done what I would've done, would they have pushed on until every Wraith was dead, would they have tried to find some terms for surrender where the Wraith were stripped of their space faring capabilities and forced to only feed on their own kind, or would they have come up with another option (possibly involving mindless clones)?
What kind of selfish solutions are those? You're blinded by the fact that we're talking about humans as food. If this was some non-humanoid, yet sentient race, would you be so quick as to suggest these ludicrous "solutions"?

Forced cannibalism? Yes, very moral of you. Stripping them of their space faring abilities is condemning many of them to certain death since they'd be stuck in space without food. Unless all Hives were to start orbiting inhabited planets.

The mindless clones solution is the only valid solution. And I can't understand why neither side has ever entertained such an idea other than through bad writing.


Clearly, they weren't planning to lose the war and retreat back to Earth with a fraction of their population still alive, they were planning to win.
But not through genocide.


So whatever they would've done in that scenario, I don't see why they could not have done the same thing in the case of winning with the Attero device. Again, it has the same exact effect, it's just faster and with less of a cost to your own kind.
Only the Attero device kills unsuspected and unknowing Wraith merely for wanting to travel in space. Not every single Wraith were at war with the Ancients. And none of your solutions are valid, not if you're a Wraith!

They only people to have anything to gain and not lots to lose from these "solutions" are the humans (or Ancients at war with the Wraith). The Wraith have everything to lose, including their very lives, with no guaranteed solution in sight.

If every single one of them came beating at Atlantis' shield, the battle wouldn't have lasted 100 years, it would've been over within a decade or two, especially since they were able to churn out new Wraith and Hives so quickly.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 12:31 PM
See the larger picture. ATM, every gate in the PG dialed will overload. Do the maths.
Yes, and the math doesn't add up. Maybe if you strategically placed 12 Stargates throughout a single galaxy. Stargates light years apart will not affect each other. It will just be single Stargates exploding and taking parts of planets with them.


Why the drones and the warships then? To me, the Ancients, as they are currently written, are cowards. They cut and run. They fled the Ori, the plague and whoever unleashed it on them, the Wraith, and God knows who else. Even the Asgard, who were pretty much pacifists, stood their ground against the Replicators, while protecting several Milky Way worlds from the Goa'uld in the process. The Ancients, nope. They cut and run.The Ancients were the ultimate pacifists, fight only when absolutely necessary.

They didn't cut and run because of cowardice. They cut and run because there was no conceivable victory in sight. The Ori probably outnumbered them and we all know why the Ancients fled the Wraith.

Xaeden
October 1st, 2008, 01:54 PM
Wait, what? They hunted down and killed those who thought otherwise but only if they didn't "stay in line"?

What would "staying in line" entail? Not pursuing Ascension? So it's OK to be different as long as you don't act on it and do exactly what the collective wants you to?

They hunted down those who went to pursue their own agenda by breaking off on their own. Staying in line meant staying on Asura and not betraying the others. Niam's people were allowed to try to achieve ascension within the confines of the city. They were even allowed to study the Humans when they said they thought it would help them. As I see it, the reason they eventually left was because they viewed the war with the Wraith as counterproductive to their efforts since they thought violence was what was stopping them for ascending. There was no mention of them being forced to flee because they were going to be reset for thinking differently.


Niam also specifically said that there is only a small number who share his view. So again, it's still sacrificing a few for the good of millions.

Yes, and I keep talking a middle ground of replicators who's views weren't necessary as black and white as Oberoth and Niam were. The people trying to achieve ascension through non-violence may have been small, but we don't know that there weren't a lot of others who weren't as bad as Oberoth, but weren't as pure and noble as Niam because they wanted to ascend. That doesn't make them bad and deserving of being wiped out though - If given a chance they may be very reasonable.


What justification do we have to kill off all Wraith?

Because they feed? They have to for survival. It's especially mucky now that we've devised a tentative cure to their problem. So we're not even giving them the choice to "repent". We're killing them right off.

I've said several times now that I do not agree with killing off all the Wraith. I'm only saying that I do not believe there is the possibility for victory unless the Wraith suffer many losses first.



The people who eventually Ascended and became the Ascended Ancients with their code of non-interference. The Ancients who left the Wraith alone long enough for them to ever pose a threat to them and eventually win the war.

Nothing that has been said about the Ancients suggests that they had a rule of non-interference as morals. The reason the ascended beings did so was because they realized that there powers were so great that there was a temptation to abuse them if they interfered and become like the Ori. The mortal Ancients, meanwhile, created Human life, experimented on them like lab rats, set up testing facilities on a Human world where they seemed to be very friendly with the people there, bred with Humans, and who knows what else.

Meanwhile, how exactly the Wraith came to power was never established, but I doubt it was because the Ancients just sat on their hands and watched them feast on Human worlds.


Yes, I do believe they wouldn't attack a Wraith ship unprovoked. Pray tell, would you kill an Iraqi on the street if you encountered one as the U.S. is currently at war with Iraqi (no matter what the Republicans say, the war is not yet over)?

That's a bad example. A proper example is would you attack a Japanese ship during WWII after war was declared? There are tactical reasons why you might not, but you're not going to sit there and wait for them to fire on you first. After an official delcaration of war any clear military targets are more than fair game. With the Wraith, there are no civilians that we know about and either every ship or 99% of ships are a military target if they were anything like the Wraith of today.


So instead of engaging Saddam's armies in combat, the U.S. should've tactically nuked parts of Iraq 'til Saddam surrendered for fear of other nukes?

Again, two different things. Nuking parts of Iraq hurts civilian populations. Going after heavily armored vessels that would be out to get you if they saw you is a different matter entirely.


At least we wouldn't be the ones to engage in genocide. And it wouldn't even be genocide, it would be civil war. The Wraith already at war with each other. It's not like Todd would randomly embark on a campaign of murder.

Again, just because you're killing off a portion of their hostile forces all at once does not make it genocide. If you created a new type of bomber at a time when there was nothing that could reach it at how high it could fly and you sent a whole bunch of them to drop bombs on perhaps hundreds of military bases in a matter of days, that is basically the same thing and that isn't genocide either. It's murder for sure, but all wars are massive campaigns of murder. There's a difference, though, fighting a war and genocide and the Attero device, itself, does not cross the line. What you decide to do after is what will make it genocide or not.


The war is already raging. We would be providing one faction with a solution to their problems to they can gain the upper hand and hopefully convince the others to accept the solution.

And if they don't, then the person who came up with this plan is responsible for the deaths of many more as the Wraith go on to continue to kill Humanity. There are too many lives that would be gambled on that flimsey plan. The Attero device potentially does not kill anymore Wraith than would've died by their own hands and can be used to assure that nobody has to continue suffering. In a perfect world, the Wraith will agree to this treatment and go off into the sunset to live peaceful and productive lives, but it's a complete and utter gamble and the odds are against you.


For the Ancients, it's clearly immoral. For us, it's also immoral.

One could argue that fighting any war is immoral, but the Ancients shouldn't be ashamed of themselves for winning just because a lot of their enemies have to die in order to not lose.


Not to mention the moral implications of forcing someone to do as you say. Just because we think our solution is the best doesn't mean it is the best. Neither is it morally acceptable to give your opponents only two choices: Do it or die!

Again, there's moral issues with anything involved in war. It's all about levels of immorality and not crossing a line into too much of an extreme and nothing with that is anything that is really beyond that generally accepted line. It's awful that we have to do that, but the only other option is to sit back and let yourself be killed in many situations.


Especially not when it's such a huge choice. Such a change in their entire way of being requires negotiations and diplomatic talks if you want to implement it on a wide scale.

What about the Wraith makes you think that's ever going to be an option?


Or the Wraith simply stole them from defeated outposts and/or ships? I mean, your proof of the Ancients running around killing any Wraith they see is that the Wraith got their hands on ZPMs somehow?

No, my proof is that Todd specifically said that they fought their way deeper and deeper into Wraith territory with the intention of "weeding them out." Unless you're going to argue that Todd was lying, then we know this for a fact. Here's the line from "Spoilers of War:"

McKAY: There's one thing I don't understand. Back when you defeated the Ancients, how did you get your hands on a ZedP.M?

TODD: The Lanteans were powerful but careless. Believing their ships were unbeatable, they sent them deeper and deeper into Wraith-controlled territory, trying to weed us out. It took months, but eventually we were able to capture three of them, each one powered by a ZeeP.M.

He's clearly talking about an offensive assault on the part of the Ancients here.


This with no guaranteed solution in sight and the fact that they can't hibernate forever, they'll have to eventually go out of hibernation and feed.

Since there were 60 Hives around in 2004 and more planets than that, yet each planet gets culled approximately once every 3 generations, we have to assume that the Wraith can only go without feeding for, say, 50-100 years at a time, max.

And that's not considering that that's no way of living. Eternal sleep with infrequent bouts of feeding just to stay alive and then more sleep with no guaranteed solution.

I'm assuming that the Ancients can figure it out in that amount of time. They just had no reason to do so before because they preoccupied with developing things that could help them kill off the Wraith. But with a few years of pouring all their resources into studying that I don't see why it would have to take anywhere near 50-100 years.


What kind of selfish solutions are those? You're blinded by the fact that we're talking about humans as food. If this was some non-humanoid, yet sentient race, would you be so quick as to suggest these ludicrous "solutions"?

Actually, yes. I put more value over non-Human life on a personal level, but that's neither here nor here. In the case of the Wraith, those solutions are not meant to be pretty. They're meant to be necessary. The Wraith allowed their population to grow to massive numbers so they could only feed themselves on a galaxy wide population, then they launched a war against the Ancients. Either the Ancients can pack up and leave from the get go while telling everyone to have a nice life or they can fight with the hope of winning.


Forced cannibalism? Yes, very moral of you. Stripping them of their space faring abilities is condemning many of them to certain death since they'd be stuck in space without food. Unless all Hives were to start orbiting inhabited planets.

I didn't say I would do that. I said that's what the Ancients may have been forced to do to put an end to war. My point was that if they were going to do it anyway should they have won, then there's nothing worse about winning trhough using the Attero device.


The mindless clones solution is the only valid solution. And I can't understand why neither side has ever entertained such an idea other than through bad writing.

Because through Wraith history they have shown no signs of stopping their aggression. If you gave them an ulimitated food supply at any point they would've grown to massive numbers. But if you only entertain such a notion after the Wraith have been beaten back and you've stripped them of their military capabilities then you are in a position to use clones to keep their population under controlable levels.


Only the Attero device kills unsuspected and unknowing Wraith merely for wanting to travel in space. Not every single Wraith were at war with the Ancients. And none of your solutions are valid, not if you're a Wraith!

How do you know that? Have you seen any Wraith today that are just wanting to travel in space and wouldn't destroy a Human ship if they were in a position to win?


They only people to have anything to gain and not lots to lose from these "solutions" are the humans (or Ancients at war with the Wraith). The Wraith have everything to lose, including their very lives, with no guaranteed solution in sight.

Of course, that's why these are forced solutions at the end of a war when they are completely and utterly beaten back. The Ancients even tried to talk peace with the Wraith, but they layed a trap and destroyed the last of their fleet. They don't want to find a solution when they are on top - They are only interested now because they are forced to fight amongst themselves to avoid starvation.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 02:30 PM
They hunted down those who went to pursue their own agenda by breaking off on their own. Staying in line meant staying on Asura and not betraying the others. Niam's people were allowed to try to achieve ascension within the confines of the city. They were even allowed to study the Humans when they said they thought it would help them. As I see it, the reason they eventually left was because they viewed the war with the Wraith as counterproductive to their efforts since they thought violence was what was stopping them for ascending. There was no mention of them being forced to flee because they were going to be reset for thinking differently.
Fine. This doesn't refute the bigger point, though. Also, either commit genocide with the others or die?


Yes, and I keep talking a middle ground of replicators who's views weren't necessary as black and white as Oberoth and Niam were. The people trying to achieve ascension through non-violence may have been small, but we don't know that there weren't a lot of others who weren't as bad as Oberoth, but weren't as pure and noble as Niam because they wanted to ascend. That doesn't make them bad and deserving of being wiped out though - If given a chance they may be very reasonable.
Oberoth is only one Asuran. If so many opposed his views, why was he allowed to reign and go to war against the humans?


I've said several times now that I do not agree with killing off all the Wraith. I'm only saying that I do not believe there is the possibility for victory unless the Wraith suffer many losses first.
And I'm saying there is. Or at least we can try. Activating it now or the Ancients activating it back when wouldn't have been morally acceptable.


Nothing that has been said about the Ancients suggests that they had a rule of non-interference as morals. The reason the ascended beings did so was because they realized that there powers were so great that there was a temptation to abuse them if they interfered and become like the Ori. The mortal Ancients, meanwhile, created Human life, experimented on them like lab rats, set up testing facilities on a Human world where they seemed to be very friendly with the people there, bred with Humans, and who knows what else.
They believed in free will, even as mortals. This is why, among other things, they chose not to activate the Ark of Truth.


Meanwhile, how exactly the Wraith came to power was never established, but I doubt it was because the Ancients just sat on their hands and watched them feast on Human worlds.
They chose not to just blow them out of the sky without peaceful diplomatic deliberations first (as the hologram stated).


That's a bad example. A proper example is would you attack a Japanese ship during WWII after war was declared? There are tactical reasons why you might not, but you're not going to sit there and wait for them to fire on you first. After an official delcaration of war any clear military targets are more than fair game. With the Wraith, there are no civilians that we know about and either every ship or 99% of ships are a military target if they were anything like the Wraith of today.
The Wraith do not have planets to live on! The ships double as transport and living space! Wraith ships are not automatically military targets merely because they can be used as weapons.

I doubt the Ancients went around patrolling for Hives they could shoot down. Now if they happened to come upon one, then they might take the first shot. But to actively seek out "peaceful" Hives is not morally acceptable, even in times of war.

Especially when Wraith Hives double as colonies.


Again, two different things. Nuking parts of Iraq hurts civilian populations. Going after heavily armored vessels that would be out to get you if they saw you is a different matter entirely.
Heavily armored vessels with tons of civilians on them.


Again, just because you're killing off a portion of their hostile forces all at once does not make it genocide.
Hostile because they live on ships? Or hostile for feeding for survival?


Stuff.
See above.


And if they don't, then the person who came up with this plan is responsible for the deaths of many more as the Wraith go on to continue to kill Humanity.
For survival. They do not kill for fun (except hunters who hunt single individuals for fun). They kill for survival.


There are too many lives that would be gambled on that flimsey plan. The Attero device potentially does not kill anymore Wraith than would've died by their own hands and can be used to assure that nobody has to continue suffering.
This is such a copout and you know it. "Of course no hostile Wraith would've died from it!". They should be given a choice.


In a perfect world, the Wraith will agree to this treatment and go off into the sunset to live peaceful and productive lives, but it's a complete and utter gamble and the odds are against you.
Yes, they would. And? It's not if it happens that matters, it's how it happens.


One could argue that fighting any war is immoral, but the Ancients shouldn't be ashamed of themselves for winning just because a lot of their enemies have to die in order to not lose.
It's not just waging war, it's how you wage war.


Again, there's moral issues with anything involved in war. It's all about levels of immorality and not crossing a line into too much of an extreme and nothing with that is anything that is really beyond that generally accepted line. It's awful that we have to do that, but the only other option is to sit back and let yourself be killed in many situations.
Just because something is slightly immoral doesn't mean it's ok to do something extremely immoral.


What about the Wraith makes you think that's ever going to be an option?
Because not trying to and giving them only the choice of "Do what we say or you die!" makes us no different than the Ori and their forces! We're pushing our beliefs onto others and giving them only the choice of following us blindly without knowing the full scope of what will happen or death.


No, my proof is that Todd specifically said that they fought their way deeper and deeper into Wraith territory with the intention of "weeding them out." Unless you're going to argue that Todd was lying, then we know this for a fact. Here's the line from "Spoilers of War:"
This equates to "They actively sought out Wraith, no matter what they were doing, and killed them all" how?


He's clearly talking about an offensive assault on the part of the Ancients here.
I never stated that the Ancients didn't seek the Wraith out. Just that they didn't deliberate seek out random peaceful Hives doing nothing but existing (and feeding). Hives part of the alliance against the Ancients, that's a different matter altogether.


I'm assuming that the Ancients can figure it out in that amount of time. They just had no reason to do so before because they preoccupied with developing things that could help them kill off the Wraith. But with a few years of pouring all their resources into studying that I don't see why it would have to take anywhere near 50-100 years.
The Ancients had over 100 years to try to come up with something like that. What makes you think they didn't once try to develop such a solution but just scrapped it?


Actually, yes. I put more value over non-Human life on a personal level, but that's neither here nor here. In the case of the Wraith, those solutions are not meant to be pretty. They're meant to be necessary. The Wraith allowed their population to grow to massive numbers so they could only feed themselves on a galaxy wide population, then they launched a war against the Ancients. Either the Ancients can pack up and leave from the get go while telling everyone to have a nice life or they can fight with the hope of winning.
Umm... go back to the episode you just quoted. The Wraith grew in numbers, then the Ancients attacked, then they got ZPMs and cloned themselves to build an army.

They didn't randomly spring up in the millions overnight.


I didn't say I would do that. I said that's what the Ancients may have been forced to do to put an end to war. My point was that if they were going to do it anyway should they have won, then there's nothing worse about winning trhough using the Attero device.
Because the Ancients believe in free will and the right to exist for any race?


Because through Wraith history they have shown no signs of stopping their aggression. If you gave them an ulimitated food supply at any point they would've grown to massive numbers.
Proof? No, really, what is your proof for this? The only reason they reached 60 Hives was because they fought a war and needed troops. There is nothing to suggest they breed for fun and would grow to accommodate their food supply.


But if you only entertain such a notion after the Wraith have been beaten back and you've stripped them of their military capabilities then you are in a position to use clones to keep their population under controlable levels.
How about we just give them the damn clones? "Feed on these clones, it'll make no difference to you. No one will be hurt, no one will have to fight". But you're probably right. The Wraith just like war, they probably wouldn't even have entertained that plan!


How do you know that? Have you seen any Wraith today that are just wanting to travel in space and wouldn't destroy a Human ship if they were in a position to win?
No, but would they actively seek out human ships for the mere sake of destroying them for fun? The two factions are at war. If they encounter each other, they fight. But the Wraith don't actively seek the expedition out to blast them out of the sky.

For the most part, they're just engaging in civil war and doing nothing.


Of course, that's why these are forced solutions at the end of a war when they are completely and utterly beaten back. The Ancients even tried to talk peace with the Wraith, but they layed a trap and destroyed the last of their fleet. They don't want to find a solution when they are on top - They are only interested now because they are forced to fight amongst themselves to avoid starvation.
What peace were the Ancients offering? They didn't have a solution to their feeding problem!

We do. A tentative one, but it's better than "Stop feeding and die!".

Jeffala
October 1st, 2008, 02:42 PM
There is no such thing as a "peaceful" hive as long as that hive attacks human planets and feeds on the humans there.

If they are required to feed on humans to live then they should choose to die.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 03:02 PM
There is no such thing as a "peaceful" hive as long as that hive attacks human planets and feeds on the humans there.

If they are required to feed on humans to live then they should choose to die.
Yes, because you would obviously do that if you were a Wraith. Why live when it comes at the cost of lesser evolved "animals"? You're a vegan who never wears animal products too, I bet.

And you make sure no animals were ever hurt in the process of making anything you as much as look like, I presume. Talk is cheap, where's your PETA membership and refusal to touch anything made from animals?

Bboyce109
October 1st, 2008, 03:13 PM
IMO not at the cost of exploding stargates, it would be to much damage and the wraith could actually use it as a weapon, one wraith dart dials a space stargate that connects to a planet with thousands of ancients on it and they all die they could have dialed atlantis and could of destroyed it.

Jeffala
October 1st, 2008, 03:17 PM
Yes, because you would obviously do that if you were a Wraith. Why live when it comes at the cost of lesser evolved "animals"? You're a vegan who never wears animal products too, I bet.

And you make sure no animals were ever hurt in the process of making anything you as much as look like, I presume. Talk is cheap, where's your PETA membership and refusal to touch anything made from animals?

None of the animals that I eat are sentient. Your argument's logic doesn't hold.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 04:55 PM
None of the animals that I eat are sentient. Your argument's logic doesn't hold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience
http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/dictionary/sentient
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sentience
Too bad the world doesn't seem to agree.

Also, if you were born into a society which is vastly superior to a sentient race on all accounts besides their dependency on one kind of nourishment, would you rather commit suicide than feed on lower animals?

Humans are but lower level animals to the Wraith. The Wraith are biologically superior to humans in every way (at least on paper). It's the equivalent of humans waking up tomorrow dependent on feeding off of, I don't know, dolphins.

Xaeden
October 1st, 2008, 05:03 PM
Oberoth is only one Asuran. If so many opposed his views, why was he allowed to reign and go to war against the humans?

Clearly, he has a lot of supporters. The point is that there is no reason that there can't be a healthy percent of the population which aren't all that bad.


And I'm saying there is. Or at least we can try. Activating it now or the Ancients activating it back when wouldn't have been morally acceptable.

Well I respectfully disagree/


They believed in free will, even as mortals. This is why, among other things, they chose not to activate the Ark of Truth.

Free will and non-interference are two different things. Mind control is one of those lines that would generally be deemed unacceptable to cross. But it doesn't mean that they wouldn't interfere with others.


They chose not to just blow them out of the sky without peaceful diplomatic deliberations first (as the hologram stated).

Actually, this was said in "Before I Sleep" and it seems that they decided to be diplomatic after the Wraith were already overrunning them - Weir said that they sent a delegation with their most powerful warships guarding it and after the Wraith won that battle it was only a matter of time.


The Wraith do not have planets to live on! The ships double as transport and living space! Wraith ships are not automatically military targets merely because they can be used as weapons.

Lifeline:

McKAY: That’s a Wraith planet! The attack command must have been activated. (He smiles.) What do you know? It worked!

What that means we still don't know.


I doubt the Ancients went around patrolling for Hives they could shoot down. Now if they happened to come upon one, then they might take the first shot. But to actively seek out "peaceful" Hives is not morally acceptable, even in times of war.

Which haven't been proven to exist.


Heavily armored vessels with tons of civilians on them.

What civilians? The large population of drones which blindly take orders, the queen, or the males leaders/scientists? The only Wraith that we've seen which would be considered a civilian is the female child. With how few non-drones we've seen there probably aren't many of them running around. Although, that was probably less true when their food supply wasn't running so thin. Still, attacking a military target with civilians unboard and attacking a civilian target are two different things. They can't not fight the Wraith because the Wraith insist on putting their own in harms way anymore than they can't not fight them because they have Humans in storage. The Wraith are the ones morally at fault if they put children on these ships which they send into battle. You can say they double for homes, but there is no need to raise their children on Hives (which we don't know for sure they do) when they can find a nice safe planet for them instead.


Hostile because they live on ships? Or hostile for feeding for survival?

They're on heavily armored and heavily gunned enemy ships. If they want nothing to do with the war, A) I don't see the other Wraith allowing them to get away with that (they're using up resources) and B) They either shouldn't be on ships if they want to remain out of it or they need to go out of their way to make sure the Ancients agree that specially marked ships are to remain neutral. In Earth history, we had a little tradition of telling the difference between ships with the type of flag they flew - If these supposed neutral Wraith insist on running around in ships that look exactly like the ones used in the war and they don't do anything to distuigish themselves, its their own fault.


It's not just waging war, it's how you wage war.

Yes, but unless they find a way to peacefully get the Wraith to consider another solution you are not allowing any way for the Ancients to win.


Just because something is slightly immoral doesn't mean it's ok to do something extremely immoral.

It's not okay, but it can sometimes be necessary as in war.


The Ancients had over 100 years to try to come up with something like that. What makes you think they didn't once try to develop such a solution but just scrapped it?

Because, as I said, such plans would not help them win the war. It would only help to make the Wraith more unstoppable. Their use is to help the Wraith remain alive once you have beaten them and can control their population.


Umm... go back to the episode you just quoted. The Wraith grew in numbers, then the Ancients attacked, then they got ZPMs and cloned themselves to build an army.

Any chance you can provide a quote because I see no such reference to it saying the Ancients attacked them as they were growing in numbers?


They didn't randomly spring up in the millions overnight.

No of course not. My theory is that this started with them infesting the gate network on foot and like bugs, couldn't be killed because there were always some on another planet that they didn't know about. Then they gathered Human and Ancient technology and developed their own to get into space. But, of course, since they never explained it we don't know.


Proof? No, really, what is your proof for this? The only reason they reached 60 Hives was because they fought a war and needed troops. There is nothing to suggest they breed for fun and would grow to accommodate their food supply.

They're bugs, it's what they do.


No, but would they actively seek out human ships for the mere sake of destroying them for fun? The two factions are at war. If they encounter each other, they fight. But the Wraith don't actively seek the expedition out to blast them out of the sky.

Because they can't find the expedition unless they run into each other. If they could track Earth ships, though, I find it doubtful that they wouldn't actively go after them. Although, they have a lot of interest in getting Earth ships what with them potentially being able to lead them back to Atlantis/Earth. The Travelers are probably a better example - They don't like advanced races existing out there, so they take a proactive approach and destroy them on the assumption that they will otherwise become a threat to them because they're Human. That's the very reason they have to live on ships rather than starting a civilization on some planet.


What peace were the Ancients offering? They didn't have a solution to their feeding problem!

Maybe they were offering the promise to work on one. Maybe they were just willing to let the Wraith do what they wanted so long as the Wraith stopped attacking them. Who knows.

jenks
October 1st, 2008, 08:37 PM
The Wraith cull for survival. The Asurans killed because they liked it (or whatever). The Wraith are not a current threat to either the expedition or to the worlds they cull (unless you're gonna kill someone simply for their inability to survive on anything other than a certain kind of food you'd prefer be left alone).

Interesting choice of words, if somewhat dishonest. How exactly can you consider killing and consuming someone not to be a threat to them?

talyn2k1
October 2nd, 2008, 04:19 AM
Yes, and the efforts against the Asurans were quite more extensive, sending their 304s out taking out their ships one by one. The expedition didn't do that with the Wraith, while more worlds are being culled.

We had the means to track Asuran ships, know in advance where they would be, and ensure our ships got there first and blew them to hell before they could raise their shields. We don't have the same advantage over the Wraith.

The important thing to remember is that the Ancients suffered from the same problem as the Asgard, they were TOO advanced.
The Asgard needed us to help them against the Replicators because the only way they knew to fight them was to develop more and more advanced technologies, which promptly got absorbed by the Replicators, making them even stronger.

The Ancients were too advanced to think of relatively simple ideas like creating a virus to shut down the gate system, or a gene therapy to turn them into humans and/or remove their need to feed.

They could only fight the Wraith by trying to develop newer and better technologies. Unfortunately for the Ancients, they suffered from extreme short sightedness, only seeing the desired effects their technology would have and not considering the negative effects until they had wasted valuable time and resources in R&D.

When they did finally have technology that they could use against the Wraith, they were too morally righteous to use it because of the side effects. Towards the end of the war they were trying to ascend, and probably didn't think that commiting genocide would do any good for their efforts.

At the end of the day, it was the Ancients' responsibility to solve the problem of the Wraith which they were indirectly responsible for. If their moral compass had been on the same heading as ours, they would've considered sacrificing ascension to be worth saving all the humans in the galaxy.
However, as has been previously stated, we can't measure the morals of an alien race against our own ideals. From our perspective, the Ancients were selfish, cowardly, and short-sighted.
But without these flaws, we wouldn't have a show!

ussrelativity
October 2nd, 2008, 04:36 AM
They already have the means to track Wraith ships. Why they don't send their 304s out and take out hive after hive is likely a plot device meant to protect the Wraith.

FallenAngelII
October 2nd, 2008, 06:19 AM
Clearly, he has a lot of supporters. The point is that there is no reason that there can't be a healthy percent of the population which aren't all that bad.
Random speculation. The Asurans are machines, programmed. Programmable, reprogrammable, imbued with unquenchable rage. They're not the same as the Wraith. Ellia shows that Wraith can be raised to be no different than humans (except for the need to feed).

Oberoth and other Asurans show that their programming is ultimately flawed and that they were "born evil".


Free will and non-interference are two different things. Mind control is one of those lines that would generally be deemed unacceptable to cross. But it doesn't mean that they wouldn't interfere with others.
They didn't do anything about the Ori, be before or after they fled the Ori galaxy, they didn't strike down the Wraith immediately but instead allowed them to eventually become such a threat they could rival the Ancients (this did not happen overnight) and as far as we know, no Ancient ever engaged the Goa'uld in combat.

Sounds a lot like non-interference and pacifism to me.


Actually, this was said in "Before I Sleep" and it seems that they decided to be diplomatic after the Wraith were already overrunning them - Weir said that they sent a delegation with their most powerful warships guarding it and after the Wraith won that battle it was only a matter of time.
So the show contradicted itself. I doubt they waited for diplomatic relations till 'til they were losing the war. I bet they tried before.


McKAY: That’s a Wraith planet! The attack command must have been activated. (He smiles.) What do you know? It worked!

What that means we still don't know.
Wraith controlled. We've seen planets with Hives on them before. It happens. The Wraith don't fly around space all the time. But they're nomads, they don't spend much time on planets from what we've seen.


Which haven't been proven to exist.
Because your definition of a military target is heavily flawed.


What civilians? The large population of drones which blindly take orders, the queen, or the males leaders/scientists? The only Wraith that we've seen which would be considered a civilian is the female child. With how few non-drones we've seen there probably aren't many of them running around. Although, that was probably less true when their food supply wasn't running so thin. Still, attacking a military target with civilians unboard and attacking a civilian target are two different things. They can't not fight the Wraith because the Wraith insist on putting their own in harms way anymore than they can't not fight them because they have Humans in storage. The Wraith are the ones morally at fault if they put children on these ships which they send into battle. You can say they double for homes, but there is no need to raise their children on Hives (which we don't know for sure they do) when they can find a nice safe planet for them instead.
With your logic, every single Wraith ship is a military target despite the fact that most Wraith spend their entire lives on these ships which double, most of the time, as living quarters. So the Travelers are all military targets? No civilians there? It's all a bunch of soldiers? I mean, they live in ships only, after all!

And every single person on a ship is an enemy combatant by birthright? Simply for being on the ship?


They're on heavily armored and heavily gunned enemy ships. If they want nothing to do with the war, A) I don't see the other Wraith allowing them to get away with that (they're using up resources) and B) They either shouldn't be on ships if they want to remain out of it or they need to go out of their way to make sure the Ancients agree that specially marked ships are to remain neutral. In Earth history, we had a little tradition of telling the difference between ships with the type of flag they flew - If these supposed neutral Wraith insist on running around in ships that look exactly like the ones used in the war and they don't do anything to distuigish themselves, its their own fault.
Oh yes, let's assume a bunch of crazy things to support our cause. So every single Wraith were at war with the Ancients because, um, the other Wraiths would kill them if they didn't!

How is being on a ship wasting resources?! What resources, their mysterious power sources? Even if they stayed off the ships, they'd still be "wasting resources" if by resources you mean humans.

Wraith Hives double as living quarters. You cannot deny this. After the war with the Ancients, that's pretty much what they were, glorified cruiser ships.


Yes, but unless they find a way to peacefully get the Wraith to consider another solution you are not allowing any way for the Ancients to win.
They blast the Wraith out of the sky but only after first negotiating. Shoots first, ask questions later is not acceptable. Condemning an entire race without negotiations is stupid and frankly racist.


It's not okay, but it can sometimes be necessary as in war.
It's not just about winning, it's also about how you win.


Because, as I said, such plans would not help them win the war. It would only help to make the Wraith more unstoppable. Their use is to help the Wraith remain alive once you have beaten them and can control their population.
How would it make the Wraith more unstoppable? Take away their need to feed and they'd have no reason to wage war. Not everyone is war-hungry mongrel like certain American politicians who shall remain nameless. It'd take some adjustment, but even the Wraith would realize that breeding countless soldiers to go to war to die for no good reason is stupid.


Any chance you can provide a quote because I see no such reference to it saying the Ancients attacked them as they were growing in numbers?
How about the fact that the Ancients went "deeper into Wraith territory", then they got lucky and stole some ZPMs? In other words, the Wraith didn't magically spring up in the millions before the Ancients decided to take action.


No of course not. My theory is that this started with them infesting the gate network on foot and like bugs, couldn't be killed because there were always some on another planet that they didn't know about. Then they gathered Human and Ancient technology and developed their own to get into space. But, of course, since they never explained it we don't know.
Do not assume a bunch of things when debating. It is bad form.


They're bugs, it's what they do.
They're also human/Ancient.


Because they can't find the expedition unless they run into each other. If they could track Earth ships, though, I find it doubtful that they wouldn't actively go after them. Although, they have a lot of interest in getting Earth ships what with them potentially being able to lead them back to Atlantis/Earth. The Travelers are probably a better example - They don't like advanced races existing out there, so they take a proactive approach and destroy them on the assumption that they will otherwise become a threat to them because they're Human. That's the very reason they have to live on ships rather than starting a civilization on some planet.
But until such time a Wraith Hive attacks you, you cannot for sure say "It would attack me on sight, hence it's morally OK to shoot them on sight despite the fact that we might have a solution to the war".


Maybe they were offering the promise to work on one. Maybe they were just willing to let the Wraith do what they wanted so long as the Wraith stopped attacking them. Who knows.
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.


Interesting choice of words, if somewhat dishonest. How exactly can you consider killing and consuming someone not to be a threat to them?
Because until they actually cull your world, a specific Hive is not a threat to you. It's like calling me a threat to all animals because I eat meat.

Until a Hive attacks the Atlantis expedition, they are not a direct threat to the expedition. Until a Hive culls a specific world, they are not a threat to that specific world.

Xaeden
October 2nd, 2008, 06:21 AM
They already have the means to track Wraith ships. Why they don't send their 304s out and take out hive after hive is likely a plot device meant to protect the Wraith.

They only have the means to track the ones within a certain range of Atlantis. If they took them out not only would they draw the attention of the wider Wraith fleet, but they'd be narrowing down their search. Right now they're trying to maintain the status quo while they build up their resources, continue to explore for useful technology, and develop alliances.


Random speculation. The Asurans are machines, programmed. Programmable, reprogrammable, imbued with unquenchable rage. They're not the same as the Wraith. Ellia shows that Wraith can be raised to be no different than humans (except for the need to feed).

And Niam proves that not all replicators are the same as Oberoth's kind so why can there not be any replicators who fall into one of two extremes?


Oberoth and other Asurans show that their programming is ultimately flawed and that they were "born evil".

Oberoth seems more a product of his environment. He feels hurt by his parents and is lashing out. There's nothing to say he can't change or that all must have had the same reaction to what the Ancients did to them. The only flaw is that their programming is so much like a Human's brain.


Wraith controlled. We've seen planets with Hives on them before. It happens. The Wraith don't fly around space all the time. But they're nomads, they don't spend much time on planets from what we've seen.

While that may be true, we can't be sure and since it's never been said one way or another I'm taking a wait and see approach on that one. As Todd said, there's much we don't know about Wraith.


With your logic, every single Wraith ship is a military target despite the fact that most Wraith spend their entire lives on these ships which double, most of the time, as living quarters. So the Travelers are all military targets? No civilians there? It's all a bunch of soldiers? I mean, they live in ships only, after all!

To be clear. The Wraith are not all military targets today. They were during the Ancient war. The difference is that they declared war on the Ancients and sent these ships into battle despite the fact that they double as homes. If the Travelers declared war on an enemy and went into battle repeatedly with civilians unboard then they are military targets. If they want they can move all civilians over to some of their ships, mark them, and ask their enemy not to go after them. If their enemy refuses then it is a war crime. But if the Travelers don't make any effort to not involve their civilians in the war then there's nothing that can be done but than to assume that any and all of their ships are your enemy.


Oh yes, let's assume a bunch of crazy things to support our cause. So every single Wraith were at war with the Ancients because, um, the other Wraiths would kill them if they didn't!

Actually, I'm more inclined to think it's simply because the Wraith have shown no signs of having that kind of attitude that you described. They were all raised to grow up with this same kind of attitude and even Michael said that the perspective that he was given by his time on Atlantis was rare among the Wraith.


How is being on a ship wasting resources?! What resources, their mysterious power sources? Even if they stayed off the ships, they'd still be "wasting resources" if by resources you mean humans.

Both the ship itself and the Humans they eat are resources. If a large population of Wraith existed that went after food without the use of ships and no intention of fighting the Ancients I'd think they'd do the same thing to them.


How would it make the Wraith more unstoppable? Take away their need to feed and they'd have no reason to wage war. Not everyone is war-hungry mongrel like certain American politicians who shall remain nameless. It'd take some adjustment, but even the Wraith would realize that breeding countless soldiers to go to war to die for no good reason is stupid.

I'm not going to continue to argue this point as I'd be repeating myself so I think it's better to just leave this at we agree to disagree. I'll just say that I believe the Wraith have lived with this war-like mentality for so long that it's who they are and I doubt they'll just go off into the sunset and build a civilian of peace and understanding if they don't have to feed on Humans, and I'll leave it at that.


Do not assume a bunch of things when debating. It is bad form.

Who's assuming? The part you quoted was clearly listed as a theory at the start of the point and then was ended by saying we have no way of knowing. The point of which was to illustrate that there are several possibilities and your idea was not necessarily the right one (which you were assuming was true btw). Since we have no way of proving either and there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to hint at what might of happened at that period of time I'd prefer to drop it.


Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.

Yes, assumptions that I ended with a "who knows." Again, the point was to illustrate that there were many possibilities and that we can not begin to know for sure. Why do you not get that and why do you blast others for assumptions that are clearly marked as such when you have repeatedly passed assumptions off as fact?


Because until they actually cull your world, a specific Hive is not a threat to you. It's like calling me a threat to all animals because I eat meat.

So a wolf isn't a threat to all deer? Why then do the deer run when they see the wolf instead of trying to reason with the wolf? It's a silly anology, I admit, but it has some truth to it. If you know someone is a predator that likes to eat your kind, you're going to do whatever you again to protect yourself. With two sentient beings that range in levels of predatory nature this, unfortunately, has to take on a new level as the same tactics that animals use are extremely less successful.

jenks
October 2nd, 2008, 08:43 AM
Because until they actually cull your world, a specific Hive is not a threat to you. It's like calling me a threat to all animals because I eat meat.

No it's not, it's the people who do the killing that are the threat to animals, not the eating. So really it's like saying that an abattoir is a threat to cows, which of course it is!


Until a Hive attacks the Atlantis expedition, they are not a direct threat to the expedition. Until a Hive culls a specific world, they are not a threat to that specific world.

No, they're a constant threat, the fact that their life depends on attacking worlds sees to that.

General Yogi Bear
October 3rd, 2008, 01:02 AM
After much consideration, I think the Ancients should have used the Attero device to defeat the Wraith. I mean before discovering the "side effect" I thought that the Wraith can still cull using darts and stargates. After seeing the side effect I admit that it is pretty devastating but it dawned on me that the Ancients should have disabled the gate system with a virus like Avenger. They hit every stargate except those in Ancient control. This will prevent the Stargates from exploding and prevent collateral damage and paralyze the Wraith completely.

They keep the device active at random and intermittent intervals it will keep the Wraith off balance and prime for the final take down.

Thats a pretty good idea. But if the Wraith learned how to turn the gate system back on that would be a problem. But its still worth trying.

Integrabyte
October 3rd, 2008, 05:09 AM
Yes, and the math doesn't add up. Maybe if you strategically placed 12 Stargates throughout a single galaxy. Stargates light years apart will not affect each other. It will just be single Stargates exploding and taking parts of planets with them.


The math does add up. Gates and subspace being screwed. From what I've seen in this episode, both the Wraith subspace level and the wormholes through subspace seem to be connected ....

Did you miss the last minutes of the episode?

38:38-->Rodney: "You and I are safe its just the rest of the galaxy that is going to have a problem, including Atlantis"

FallenAngelII
October 4th, 2008, 12:43 AM
The math does add up. Gates and subspace being screwed. From what I've seen in this episode, both the Wraith subspace level and the wormholes through subspace seem to be connected ....

Did you miss the last minutes of the episode?

38:38-->Rodney: "You and I are safe its just the rest of the galaxy that is going to have a problem, including Atlantis"
The math adds up to what I said it'll add up to:
Single Stargates exploding when turned on.

The Stargates won't randomly blow up entire or parts of solar systems. Because they do not have the power to.

YutheGreat
October 4th, 2008, 03:51 PM
The explosion of an active fully charge stargate will render the planet uninhabitable will it not? In the SG-1 episode Redemption. So if you nuke all the stargate in Pegasus everyone will be extinct.

Jeffala
October 4th, 2008, 06:22 PM
The explosion of an active fully charge stargate will render the planet uninhabitable will it not? In the SG-1 episode Redemption. So if you nuke all the stargate in Pegasus everyone will be extinct.

It depends.

If it works the same way that the weapon in Redemption worked, then yeah. Redemption passed so much energy into the gate that it overloaded. Did this one work the same way? I can't remember.

Infinatus
October 4th, 2008, 07:52 PM
It depends.

If it works the same way that the weapon in Redemption worked, then yeah. Redemption passed so much energy into the gate that it overloaded. Did this one work the same way? I can't remember.

It seemed that way. Though it's still only each time someone dials the gate, so it shouldn't happen everywhere. I'm thinking the Genii would be hit pretty hard by this weapon.

YutheGreat
October 5th, 2008, 02:45 AM
It depends.

If it works the same way that the weapon in Redemption worked, then yeah. Redemption passed so much energy into the gate that it overloaded. Did this one work the same way? I can't remember.

The Attero makes gates go bang. 12 nukes is a big bang. The very short time lag could be because of the power generated by the Attero I mean. The Attero can flood the entire galaxy with enough static to destroy every hive.

kymeric
October 7th, 2008, 12:03 PM
If the ancients wouldnt even use a brainwashing device on their enemies to save themselves theyre certainly not going to trap/kill an entire species. One that they are as responsible for creating just as much as humans. Its been well documented that Ancients were not a militaristically minded society and when faced with a solution that violates their ethics they would rather run.

YutheGreat
October 15th, 2008, 06:30 AM
If the ancients wouldnt even use a brainwashing device on their enemies to save themselves theyre certainly not going to trap/kill an entire species. One that they are as responsible for creating just as much as humans. Its been well documented that Ancients were not a militaristically minded society and when faced with a solution that violates their ethics they would rather run.

I've been thinking. There are a few good reasons why the Ancients didn't use the Attero. I grossly overestimated the effectivity of the Attero device. Yes the Attero would have caused massive cassualties on the Wraith forces in the beginning but I forgot to factor in Wraith Physiology and Mentality.

Physiology: The Wraith could survive hundreds of years in hybernation thats hundreds of years of keeping the Attero device on and a hundred years of no gate travel between Ancient homeworlds.

Mentality: If the Wraith realize they cannot retreat. They can't surrender either they need to eat. They would hit every ancient planet within range with everything they got hoping to destroy the Attero device along with it.

In the Art of War it is called Desperate Ground. After few months bombarding ancient homeworlds with bullets. When they run out of bullets they would crash asteroids. WHen they run out of Asteroids They will eventually start crashing their darts into the shields a few months after that the Wraith would start crashing their cruisers a few months after that they will crash their Hiveships into Ancient planets. I know the Ancients are tough but I don't think Atlantis' shields can survive several hives crashing into it.