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View Full Version : Todd's not really thinking straight, which will lead to unnecessary deaths...



FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 06:28 AM
I love Todd, but he was kinda dumb this episode. "This was your plan all along!" - Oh yeah, we're gonna activate this device which blows up any Wraith ship trying to enter hyperspace. Instead of just sitting back and watch you all blow up, we'll simultaneously try to modify your DNA with our desperate plan to help relieve you of your dependency of feeding.

All the while this is happening, we're going to allow you and other Wraith aboard or ship. Because our master plan of blowing stuff up somehow requires all of these things to occur...

Also, we're also denying it profusely instead of just keeping you prisoner like the pawn that you apparently are in our evil plot.

Now innocent Wraith who might've actually been reformed by the DNA-thingie and possible humans are going to die because of this BS.

Nemises
September 28th, 2008, 06:35 AM
todd is heading to earth in the next episode

rarocks24
September 28th, 2008, 07:29 AM
todd is heading to earth in the next episode
To have punch and pie. ;)

And really FAII, Todd felt betrayed. No Wraith could go to hyperspace. The level of trust the humans and Todd's alliance have is still quite low.

And obviously the situation is worked out in some way that brings Atlantis and the Wraith close together again if they're willing to take the retrovirus.

Laura Dove
September 28th, 2008, 08:32 AM
I love Todd, but he was kinda dumb this episode. "This was your plan all along!" - Oh yeah, we're gonna activate this device which blows up any Wraith ship trying to enter hyperspace. Instead of just sitting back and watch you all blow up, we'll simultaneously try to modify your DNA with our desperate plan to help relieve you of your dependency of feeding.

I seriously believe his reaction had something to do with Woolsey's mistakes, on top of Todd's own general uneasiness about the therapy. Each time Woosey spoke, Todd seemed more and more suspicious of him. So when he saw the Attero device was activated, there was only one logical conclusion, especially considering that nobody else in the Pegasus galaxy would have been able to activate the device. Suspect behaviour + only possible culprit = they betrayed me.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 09:55 AM
I seriously believe his reaction had something to do with Woolsey's mistakes, on top of Todd's own general uneasiness about the therapy. Each time Woosey spoke, Todd seemed more and more suspicious of him. So when he saw the Attero device was activated, there was only one logical conclusion, especially considering that nobody else in the Pegasus galaxy would have been able to activate the device. Suspect behaviour + only possible culprit = they betrayed me.
Anyone with the ATA gene would've been able to activate the Attero Device, though. Also, he didn't stop to think things through. It'd be illogical to bring him aboard their ship and continue the experiment if they planned on obliterating all Wraith in hyperspace anyway.

Laura Dove
September 28th, 2008, 10:16 AM
Anyone with the ATA gene would've been able to activate the Attero Device, though.

With the Ancient gene AND knowledge of the Lantean technology, which probably excludes Pegasus humans. Todd might even know that the Attero device is on a planet without a stargate, which implies the ones who activated it have access to space ships.


Also, he didn't stop to think things through. It'd be illogical to bring him aboard their ship and continue the experiment if they planned on obliterating all Wraith in hyperspace anyway.

I agree he's jumping to conclusions too fast, but admit its a hell of a coincidence that the Attero device was activated just when Todd was on a human ship. He might believe they were intending to capture him alive so he could witness the downfall of his species or something like that. So far as he's concerned, the simulations ran by Keller might be fake and there might be no gene treatment at all (or only Michael's).

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 10:34 AM
With the Ancient gene AND knowledge of the Lantean technology, which probably excludes Pegasus humans. Todd might even know that the Attero device is on a planet without a stargate, which implies the ones who activated it have access to space ships.
How the hell would Todd know all of this? And if he did, why not just swoop in and try to retake it to prevent it from ever being activated? Also, according to Rodney, it was even hard. Just plug it in and turn it on.


I agree he's jumping to conclusions too fast, but admit its a hell of a coincidence that the Attero device was activated just when Todd was on a human ship. He might believe they were intending to capture him alive so he could witness the downfall of his species or something like that. So far as he's concerned, the simulations ran by Keller might be fake and there might be no gene treatment at all (or only Michael's).
That's not the way the Lanteans roll and Todds knows it.

Laura Dove
September 28th, 2008, 10:56 AM
How the hell would Todd know all of this? And if he did, why not just swoop in and try to retake it to prevent it from ever being activated? Also, according to Rodney, it was even hard. Just plug it in and turn it on.

A little more than that: He needed "a basic understanding of Janus' coding style", which might not be as easy as it sounds in his mouth.

Regarding Todd, we don't know, of course, what exactly he knows about the Attero device. But he's likely old enough to have played an important role during the war against the Ancients, so he could have gathered intel at that time. He might not know the location of Janus' facility (we'll learn in the next episode if he does or not), but still know other things about the place.


That's not the way the Lanteans roll and Todds knows it.

Does he? What does he know about humans, really? That Sheppard, the one to whom he feels most respect due to their escape from the Genii prison, is constantly waiting for a reason to kill him? And he wasn't even there: Woolsey was leading the "negociations".

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 11:21 AM
A little more than that: He needed "a basic understanding of Janus' coding style", which might not be as easy as it sounds in his mouth.
No, not to get the device operational, but to stop it from ever being used again. As in swooping in, stealing it and throwing it into the path of a kawoosh or something.


Does he? What does he know about humans, really? That Sheppard, the one to whom he feels most respect due to their escape from the Genii prison, is constantly waiting for a reason to kill him? And he wasn't even there: Woolsey was leading the "negociations".
Then again, Teyla kinda did try to kill off as many Wraith as she could in "The Queen". But he knows we're not sadistic. We would never capture a Wraith just to have him watch his friends die. Besides, we would never let such a Wraith wander around unguarded and quasi-freely.

We'd have guards with our guns pointed at him at all times and have incarcerated him long ago. After all, why let him roam free after we've activated the Attero device? If we were the ones who activated it, we should've known it was active and that now was the time to capture him.

Also, our people said "What the hell just happened" and seemed as stunned as Todd was. And all the while Todd was having his freak out, not a single person raised a weapon at him.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
September 28th, 2008, 11:24 AM
Fallen Angel II is right, we wouldn't need to be negotiating with Todd to activate the device and why put ourselves in that situation if that was our plan. Todd's not thinking it all through. But I can understand how a ship blowing up could cause that.

unluckynumber11
September 28th, 2008, 11:50 AM
also, why didn't any of the guards shoot todd when he took out the stun device? they couldn't be that slow, once they saw something glowing in his hand they should have open fired.

Xaeden
September 28th, 2008, 12:20 PM
Clearly he didn't have a lot of time to think about it. It all happened very quickly and it was a lot to aborb. But, just because he wasn't right about them betraying him, doesn't mean he did the wrong thing. I get the impression that he plans to use the Daedalus to somehow get to the Attero device and shut it down. How exactly he will find it I have no idea, but if that's the case then his actions will have meaning (for him). Sure, if Atlantis wasn't involved then he probably could've worked with them to stop it. But he can't put all his faith in the future of his people in their hands while sitting on his hands and hoping that they come through for him and his people aren't wiped out over this just so he'd still be able to go through with Keller's plan which would've been meaningless if the Wraith were wiped out because he put their fate in the hands of Humans. In addition, having the Daedalus under his control opens up new options for him if he is able to keep it that are far more desirable for him then changing the nature of Wraith kind (he wasn't even willing to do it on a massive scale). Frankly, I'm a little surprised he didn't try to do that earlier and can only assume that he was either still afraid that his victory over taking control of the Daedalus wouldn't save him if Teyla made a return appearance or he wanted to see if Keller's plan worked before making his move so he had both the research and the Daedalus so that he had something to fall back on.

That said, it's not that unbelievable for him to think that Keller's treatment was a ruse, either from the start or after they discovered that it didn't work and it's not out of the realm of possibility that they could somehow set it up so his facility was attacked/it looked like it would be attacked to get some or all of his ships to enter hyperspace. If they did so in order to observe the effects first hand as part of a test (which would've been a brilliant way to do that) then I suppose it's possisble for them to lie about it if not all of his ships were destroyed. Plus, he might've thought that he wouldn't know what happened and could milk something out of it his confusion. Although, I agree that there's not that much motivation for them to do that in a scenario where they were trying to set him up and if they really were trying to do that, marines should've come running in guns blazing and the Daedalus should've moved to take out the remaining Hive. But, while that might seem strange after someone has had time to sit back and think about it all, it doesn't change that its not out of the realm of possibility that everything else was part of their plan. So he wasn't completely out of line to think he was betrayed.

dasNdanger
September 28th, 2008, 12:21 PM
I love Todd, but he was kinda dumb this episode. "This was your plan all along!" - Oh yeah, we're gonna activate this device which blows up any Wraith ship trying to enter hyperspace. Instead of just sitting back and watch you all blow up, we'll simultaneously try to modify your DNA with our desperate plan to help relieve you of your dependency of feeding.

All the while this is happening, we're going to allow you and other Wraith aboard or ship. Because our master plan of blowing stuff up somehow requires all of these things to occur...

Also, we're also denying it profusely instead of just keeping you prisoner like the pawn that you apparently are in our evil plot.

Now innocent Wraith who might've actually been reformed by the DNA-thingie and possible humans are going to die because of this BS.

You forgot one very important thing...

Sheppard wasn't there. Sheppard is Todd's 'anchor'. Are you familiar with horses? Some horses, like thoroughbreds, are often high-strung and on edge. Every little thing sets them off. So, to keep the animal calm, they give it a companion animal...often a goat. The goat keeps the horse calm, especially during stressful situations. Well, Sheppard is Todd's 'goat'. If something goes wrong with the humans, Todd looks to Sheppard, and Sheppard reassures him everything's okay. To an extent, Todd trusts Sheppard.

But Sheppard wasn't there. This probably made Todd suspicious right in the beginning. Then Keller's questioning him about whether or not he intends to use the therapy. And in Todd's mind, he probably sees Woolsey as over-compensating, overly 'attentive'. Things are just 'off', unfamiliar. All of this would raise Todd's suspicions, so that - as soon as something goes wrong - he immediately assumes he's been betrayed.

Now, if his 'goat' had been there - if Sheppard had been there - he would quickly calm Todd and reassure him that he had not been betrayed. However, Sheppard wasn't there. Only Woolsey, who he doesn't really know and certainly has no reason to trust.

Remember, too, he is more insect/animal than human, so his reactions will be different from what we may expect. The fact that he brought the stun sticks is proof that he doesn't trust humans 100%, and is always ready for an attack or betrayal. And we learned in The Queen that betrayal is the way of the Wraith, so expectation for such is part of his mentality, as well.

So - bottom line: Todd reacted the way he did because he didn't have Sheppard, his 'goat', to reassure him and keep him calm, and he was quick to suspect betrayal because betrayal is the way of the Wraith, and so he expects no less from humans, who are 'more like Wraith then they know'.


das

SoulReaver
September 28th, 2008, 12:39 PM
I love Todd, but he was kinda dumb this episode. "This was your plan all along!" - Oh yeah, we're gonna activate this device which blows up any Wraith ship trying to enter hyperspace. Instead of just sitting back and watch you all blow up, we'll simultaneously try to modify your DNA with our desperate plan to help relieve you of your dependency of feeding.

All the while this is happening, we're going to allow you and other Wraith aboard or ship. Because our master plan of blowing stuff up somehow requires all of these things to occur...

Also, we're also denying it profusely instead of just keeping you prisoner like the pawn that you apparently are in our evil plot.

Now innocent Wraith who might've actually been reformed by the DNA-thingie and possible humans are going to die because of this BS.but the fact that he made the crewmen prisoners instead of killing them outright suggests he still had doubts

Laura Dove
September 28th, 2008, 01:38 PM
No, not to get the device operational, but to stop it from ever being used again. As in swooping in, stealing it and throwing it into the path of a kawoosh or something.

I was initially talking about activating the device; it requires competencies only the Atlantis expedition has, therefore Todd immediately suspects them, because he has nobody else to suspect. But well, destroying the device should be easy enough: Just nuke it. ;)


Then again, Teyla kinda did try to kill off as many Wraith as she could in "The Queen". But he knows we're not sadistic. We would never capture a Wraith just to have him watch his friends die. Besides, we would never let such a Wraith wander around unguarded and quasi-freely.

What if he believes (or at least, part of him fears) that they want to capture him because they "like" him, and intend turn him into some kind of human or hybrid like Michael? Wouldn't it be worse than death for him?


We'd have guards with our guns pointed at him at all times and have incarcerated him long ago. After all, why let him roam free after we've activated the Attero device? If we were the ones who activated it, we should've known it was active and that now was the time to capture him.
Also, our people said "What the hell just happened" and seemed as stunned as Todd was. And all the while Todd was having his freak out, not a single person raised a weapon at him.

True, and while I'm glad they didn't, the marines were quite unprofessional. That, or they feared breaking the bridge windows and having everybody sucked into space. :D However, although Todd might have recognised that Caldwell genuinely didn't understand what happened, I'm sure he already had doubts towards Woolsey. He had to act fast anyway, before the humans had a chance to do something against him.

Anyway, getting control of the Daedalus is probably the best way (for him) to shut the Attero device as soon as possible, and so save much more lives than the ones that may be lost here. Between many of his hives and a few warriors and/or humans, it's easy to choose.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 02:55 PM
True, and while I'm glad they didn't, the marines were quite unprofessional. That, or they feared breaking the bridge windows and having everybody sucked into space. :D
I think the "glass" on our warship isn't actual glass. Flying through space at thousands of miles an hour, at that speed, a mere pebble is gonna be tens of times stronger than a normal bullet.

Also, I have enough faith in Earth's soldiers to believe they can aim at a stationary target.

Lythisrose
September 28th, 2008, 03:20 PM
but the fact that he made the crewmen prisoners instead of killing them outright suggests he still had doubts

I kind of think this suggests he might get hungry later on...;)

SoulReaver
September 28th, 2008, 07:40 PM
I kind of think this suggests he might get hungry later on...;)aw crap, forgot they were wraiths for a moment :( :jonas12:

Mitchell82
September 28th, 2008, 08:21 PM
How the hell would Todd know all of this? And if he did, why not just swoop in and try to retake it to prevent it from ever being activated? Also, according to Rodney, it was even hard. Just plug it in and turn it on.
Because Todd and all the Wraith know that Ancient tech requires the gene. Also he obviously knew the effects of the device. He felt betrayed and I can't say I blame him.



That's not the way the Lanteans roll and Todds knows it.
Maybe so but I can see why he jumped to that conclusion.

Ouroboros
September 28th, 2008, 08:57 PM
The fact he so quickly expected betrayal from them only proves that he watches the show.

YutheGreat
September 28th, 2008, 09:14 PM
I actually think it could have been a great plan IF Woolsey was trying to destroy the Wraith.

PLAN OUTLINE
(/) The Daedalus meets up with Todd.
(/)They lure him aboard.
(/)Activate the Atari device
(X)Subdue Todd
( )Destroy his hive and support ships
( )Jump away
( )Torture Todd for information on other rival hiveships

With Todd's knowledge of enemy alliance hives locations the 304s fleet could pick them off one at a time.

Who else can have access to the Atari device anyway?

Todd knows of the device. He knows it was of Ancient design. Probably suspected the entire device was on Atlantis or a significant portion of it.

He knows it couldn't be Michael. So by process of elimination it should be them. The human deaths are "acceptable" losses. (See how I work Todd's own words like that) :)

FallenAngelII
September 29th, 2008, 01:55 AM
Because Todd and all the Wraith know that Ancient tech requires the gene. Also he obviously knew the effects of the device. He felt betrayed and I can't say I blame him.
I meant the part where it's on a supposedly Stargateless planet.



Who else can have access to the Atari device anyway?
I like the idea of Atari being this evil corporation running around blowing ships out of the sky.

Laura Dove
September 29th, 2008, 03:57 AM
I meant the part where it's on a supposedly Stargateless planet.

He might have gathered intel from live Ancients prisoners during the war. But in fact, like YutheGreat suggested, he might even simply believe that the device IS on Atlantis.

Laura Dove
October 16th, 2008, 04:30 PM
FallenAngelII, I have to apologise. While I still think it was logical for Todd to believe he had been betrayed, and so to react by hijacking the Daedalus, in "The Lost Tribe" his willingness to continuously accuse Sheppard of wanting to keep the device active despite Sheppard's repeated denials was very irrational. Considering how many wraith and humans were dying as they spoke, things might not have evolved very differently, but Todd still should have understood much faster that the Atlanteans had nothing to do with it, not willingly at least.

So yeah, he was not thinking straight in this story. :S

Ouroboros
October 17th, 2008, 09:49 AM
As it turns out though he was completely right in expecting betrayal, he just got the time and place wrong.

In Lost Tribe

It's made completely clear that were the Atterro device not also a treat to humans in Pegasus Jackson and McKay would have jumped at the chance to use it, dooming Todd along with the rest of his species to a slow death by starvation. Even though as far as they both know at this point the plan is to try and make peace with Todd. McKay can barely contain his excitement at the fact that they've discovered a way to kill Todd and all the Wraith rather than actually have to go through with that whole icky peace and coexistence thing.

Laura Dove
October 17th, 2008, 11:02 AM
I completely agree with you. Todd was the hero there, defending his people against a terrible weapon. However, he should have recognised Sheppard's innocence during their conversation. When Sheppard asked him to flight to Atlantis and pick him up, "you're going to get your ship back and save the Attero device for future study" would have been a valid accusation, but "you're going to blast the ship's hyperdrives with a drone" was not.

Still, I think (hope) that McKay was more excited by the technical prowess and inventivity of Janus than by the perspective of a genocide of the wraith.