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View Full Version : I Throw Up My Hands in Defeat: The Triangle IS Poorly Written



Pandora's_Box
September 27th, 2008, 10:43 PM
There. I've said it. Are you happy now? All of you that have worried and wailed against the very idea of a love triangle on SGA.

I protested against your concerns and stood by TPTB in the ultimately vain hope that we'd get something interesting and worthwhile out of their attempt to write a romantic relationship (or two) into the show. Alas, it was not to be.

First Contact is the first episode that really plays up on the notion that Ronon and Rodney are interested in and "competing" for the same woman, Jennifer. And what do we have to show for it?

Desperate Rodney, staring after the two of them forlornly as Jennifer and Ronon run off to the Deadalus together.

A somewhat jerk-ish Ronon as he smirks back at Rodney as he leaves with Jennifer.

And an either oblivious or uncaring Jennifer who knows how Rodney feels yet seems to be encouraging Ronon.

Which wouldn't matter if she reciprocated Ronon's feelings, but we don't know what she's about because TPTB seem to have forgotten all about the third side of this triangle. Making this triangle more similar to a right-angle with no purpose other than what? To demonstrate how silly men get when they're "in love"?

So what's going on here? Are TPTB really screwing this up or is that just happening in my crazy mind?

Lahela
September 27th, 2008, 11:11 PM
I really, truly wish that you had been right when you said it might not be as bad as the nay-sayers had expected. I really do :(

Malakriss
September 27th, 2008, 11:27 PM
She's a young naive prodigy. Their experience in relationships is nil and their knowledge is close to it. At least she doesn't have a daddy complex.

Pandora's_Box
September 27th, 2008, 11:41 PM
The sad thing is, is that it's not just Keller that's getting the short end of the characterization stick here - it's all 3 characters.

I may not like Ronon much as a character or think much of Momoa as an actor, but even I know that Ronon (as he was initially written by TPTB) would have more respect for Jennifer, if not Rodney, than to act like this is some sort of competition or game for him. That smirk, more than the constant bag-carrying and "protector" status, demonstrated how far out of the realm of anything believable TPTB are taking this triangle.

No one smirks like that unless they have a reason to smirk at the other guy "competing" for Jennifer's affections. And the only reason to smirk woul be to further rub in the fact that he's spending more time with her than Rodney and therefore seems to have the advantage. Which just belittles everyone all around. And makes Ronon seem like he's a teenager again.

And I have no clue what the writers are doing with Jennifer. Rodney professed his love for her so she KNOWS how he feels. In The Shrine she was portrayed as the one who seemed to be most in sync with how Rodney thought and in Tracker she just stared at the two of them as they fought over her bags like she had no clue as to why. The very fact that Rodney was there should have urged her to have some compassion for the guy and at least have let him know before hand that Ronon was coming too. Way to get the guy's hopes up and then crash them back down to Atlantis, Jen.

Or should I say writers? Because it seems like no one is safe from the crazed pen of TPTB. Not even their favourite, Rodney.

He's insecure and not particularly suave and if the writers are trying to play that up to make the whole, nerds-can-still-get-girls scenario play out even more dramatically then they're doing their jobs either too well or not well enough because I can't seem to decide if I'm hating desperately-in-love Rodney or liking him.

It's cute and it's sweet, but mostly it's just sad and cruel.

Meanwhile, we know nothing of how Jennifer feels. Oh, we shippers can analyze scenes through our rose-coloured shipper glasses and make up scenarios that interpret various looks and gestures to mean that she loves either one of those men, but we have nothing concrete like Rodney's love or Ronon's intentions. And all that that is doing is providing fans with more reason to view her as somewhat of a tease.

Either a tease or she really is naive and oblivious. Like the most naive woman to ever hit her late twenties. And that? Is just wrong.

Acolyte Of Bli'l'ab
September 27th, 2008, 11:45 PM
Yeah, I gotta say this was the ONLY thing about the episode I did not like. I didnt take much interest either way when I read about the "love triangle", I read about it and didnt really give it any thought, but I dont really like it at all :/ It makes me dislike all three characters a little o_O thankfully it didnt stop my enjoyment of the rest of the episode - but I dont really care to see more of that kind of thing.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 01:24 AM
...I have to ask...whats it matter? So what if theres a love triangle? seriously...do people not realize that moaning about it is way more "High School Drama" than the triangle itself?

Wayston
September 28th, 2008, 03:14 AM
It could still be that Ronon offered to come with Keller out of genuine concern + the chance to pull rodney's leg

ronon after all has had a very traumatic experience in losing the love of his life to the wraith, so it wouldn't surprise me that he only has friendly feelings towards keller

maxbo
September 28th, 2008, 03:22 AM
I take no pleasure in being right about how badly TPTB would handle this triangle because the stakes are so high. I know they have a tendency to write characters out-of-character in order to try to force ship and I didn't want to see that, especially since this is the last season. Unfortunately, after just two episodes of seeing this mess in full bloom, I don't recognize, or like, any of these characters. Ronon's been turned into an arrogant, taunting ass, Rodney's too pathetic for words and Keller appears to either be a tease or she's conveniently forgotten Rodney's confession of "love".

No where in this mess do I see any genuine, mature feelings because even Rodney's "love" was much too sudden to be believeable. And, it's painful to realize that, according to these writers, Ronon suddenly has nothing but distain for Rodney, despite years of seeing otherwise. No, they weren't best buds, but they respected each other, cared about each other and had each other's back. Now, because the writers wanted a triangle, that's all gone.

What's even more bizarre about this mess is that TPTB said that the reason they were exploring yet another Rodney romance is because they wanted to show Rodney in a mature relationship. What I would love to know is - how is this triangle more mature than Rodney's relationship with Katie Brown?

I really feel for Jason Momoa because he was against this from the beginning. Poor guy undoudtedly knew what was coming. No wonder he's been so vocal about not sticking around if SGA made it to a 7th season.

DrJenniferDex
September 28th, 2008, 03:31 AM
Alright, what some people don't seem to understand is, the writers are the ones writing the characters, and they can do it how they want, it's not out of character, as much as you want to think it is. I was going to say something about something else, but I think I'll keep that to myself. Don't want to get modded.

Klinjon
September 28th, 2008, 03:31 AM
...I have to ask...whats it matter? So what if theres a love triangle? seriously...do people not realize that moaning about it is way more "High School Drama" than the triangle itself?

Agreed. And I'm still of the mindset that Ronan is messing with McKay, using Rodney's obvious affection for Keller as a chance to make the good doctor squirm and feel awkward.

If you watch the last scene again from Tracker, you can see that Ronan only suggests the idea that he has "intentions" for Keller after McKay announces his feelings and own "intentions" towards her. This presents Ronan with a chance to tease him, because although there relationship is built on a mutual respect of their respective talents, Ronan is just being playful.

So he puts forth the idea that "maybe he does have intentions", and Rodney falls for it completely. Therefore, I don't believe Ronan's smile at the end of the ep was cockyness motivated by "this guy doesn't have a chance", but rather it was acknowledgement that he had caught McKay off guard and has one up on him.

Cut now to the scene near the beginning of First Contact, where Ronan is doing everything he can to impress Keller, carrying her bags, offering to protect her etc... just for the satisfaction of catching McKay's expression of horror and jealousy in the corridor before they leave. Ronan's smile here was not one of "I'm gonna be bedding Keller tonight you just wait", but rather "I'm still playing this game, and I'm still making you squirm".

The impression I've got from the way this relationship has been portrayed is that Ronan is just joking with McKay and messing with his head a little. That is all. I'm sorry but I just can't see the "contrived love triangle" that some people are complaining about. Stargate has a history of either avoiding cliche's, or letting their characters notice, comment, and play up to them (I believe the term from Stargate SG1's milestone episode "200" referred to this as "hanging a latern [on it]") and that is exactly what I think is happening here.

Klinjon
September 28th, 2008, 03:37 AM
It could still be that Ronon offered to come with Keller out of genuine concern + the chance to pull rodney's leg

ronon after all has had a very traumatic experience in losing the love of his life to the wraith, so it wouldn't surprise me that he only has friendly feelings towards keller

Agreed.


Alright, what some people don't seem to understand is, the writers are the ones writing the characters, and they can do it how they want, it's not out of character, as much as you want to think it is. I was going to say something about something else, but I think I'll keep that to myself. Don't want to get modded.

Absolutely 100% agreed.

DrJenniferDex
September 28th, 2008, 03:43 AM
Thank you very much, Klinjon. It's like the Twilight fans who didn't enjoy Breaking Dawn(I did, personally, so did everyone I know who's read it) claiming it was basically just a giant fanfiction.

Also, I think people need to stop claiming definitively, as though it's a known fact, that Ronon has no feelings for Jennifer at all, and only Rodney deserves her based on that. We. Don't. Know. We're not the writers, we don't know if Ronon is in love with her or not. I, personally, think he is, because he opened up to her more about Melena than he's done with anyone at all, including Sheppard, who is his best friend.

maxbo
September 28th, 2008, 03:51 AM
The impression I've got from the way this relationship has been portrayed is that Ronan is just joking with McKay and messing with his head a little. That is all. I'm sorry but I just can't see the "contrived love triangle" that some people are complaining about. Stargate has a history of either avoiding cliche's, or letting their characters notice, comment, and play up to them (I believe the term from Stargate SG1's milestone episode "200" referred to this as "hanging a latern [on it]") and that is exactly what I think is happening here.

That's what I see on screen too - that Ronon's not interested in Keller, he's just messing with Rodney. I came to that conclusion because I never saw anything, before or after Quarantine, that supports Ronon being interested in Keller and because I know that he loves messing with Rodney. Unfortunately, Carl Binder, who wrote Tracker, implied otherwise. According to him, Ronon's interested and he's gleefully rubbing Rodney's nose in it. The problem with this is that it's not consistent with the Ronon I've seen before this triangle mess.

That's where my extreme distaste for this triangle mess comes from - writers who show a profound lack of understanding of their characters. I wish they cared enough about these characters to understand that if you have to write them out-of-character to make their triangle work, then they shouldn't write the triangle at all.

Just because they have the power to write anything, no matter how outlandish, for their characters, doesn't mean that they should - not if they want to maintain the trust/interest of their audience.

Lahela
September 28th, 2008, 05:09 AM
Alright, what some people don't seem to understand is, the writers are the ones writing the characters, and they can do it how they want, it's not out of character, as much as you want to think it is. I was going to say something about something else, but I think I'll keep that to myself. Don't want to get modded.

Well it's certainly not the way the characters have been written up until now and I think you'll find that that is, in fact, the definition of "out of character". If Sheppard started slitting the throats of all left handed marines, would you not think that "out of character"? Or would you accept it because TPTB wrote it?

This triangle, IMO, is demeaning to all three characters involved and I know if I were an actor presented with a script that made me behave like any of them as far as this triangle is concerned, I would seriously wonder why I had signed that contract.

And Shpinxinator, you may not give a toss about the characters in the show and therefore what happens to them or what they do, but some people do. Or should we ask permission before expressing opinions on any subject in case they don't meet your criteria for discussion topics?

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 05:21 AM
Stuff.
The reason why I was against this was because I foresaw exactly all of this happening somewhere down the line.

Previous experience with the PTB's writing and shipping made me predict that it'd go down exactly like this. Now no one's happy. Rodney's been reduced to a flustered geek without the ability to express himself when it comes to emotions or go for the woman he wants (5 years and we're still on this?), Ronon has for whatever reason become very un-Rononlike with a strange new competitive attitude and Jennifer seems kinda sluttish (or really, really dense).

So, there you have it Rononites, Kellerites and Rodneyites. A manure triangle where all sides are badly written.


It could still be that Ronon offered to come with Keller out of genuine concern + the chance to pull rodney's leg

ronon after all has had a very traumatic experience in losing the love of his life to the wraith, so it wouldn't surprise me that he only has friendly feelings towards keller
Ronon knows that Rodney doesn't take love for granted and that Rodney likes Jennifer. Why would he, having been traumatized due to the love of his life, do this to Rodney just for the lulz?

Why would he pull Rodney's leg, smirk at him and all that? Is that what you call a friend?


Stuff.
Tell me, my friend, what did you see between "Trio" and "The Sanctuary" to suggest that Rodney had fallen in love (and actually using the "love"-word) with Jennifer?

ykickamoocow
September 28th, 2008, 05:26 AM
The reason why I was against this was because I foresaw exactly all of this happening somewhere down the line.

Previous experience with the PTB's writing and shipping made me predict that it'd go down exactly like this. Now no one's happy. Rodney's been reduced to a flustered geek without the ability to express himself when it comes to emotions or go for the woman he wants (5 years and we're still on this?), Ronon has for whatever reason become very un-Rononlike with a strange new competitive attitude and Jennifer seems kinda sluttish (or really, really dense).

So, there you have it Rononites, Kellerites and Rodneyites. A manure triangle where all sides are badly written.

Slutish would only be if she was doing something with both of them (eg Kissing, having sex) but she seems to be completely ignoring both McKay's and Ronon's odd behaviour around her which should send signs that something is up.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 05:28 AM
Slutish would only be if she was doing something with both of them (eg Kissing, having sex) but she seems to be completely ignoring both McKay's and Ronon's odd behaviour around her which should send signs that something is up.
By sluttish, I mean that she's encouraging both men either explicitly or tacitly. That is if she knows what's up. If she doesn't, then she's just really, really oblivious and naive.

Even I would take note if someone was acting the way Ronon was acting around me and I'm very oblivious or at least cautious to assuming that people are interested in me romantically.

NKDietrich
September 28th, 2008, 05:31 AM
Heh. And people wonder why some of us are worried about SGU. The writers simply cannot do this sort of stuff with any level of competence. If you're going to put relationships in the show, at least do them right. This little triangle is utterly stupid.

Brain_Child
September 28th, 2008, 05:32 AM
Oh come now peoples!!!

Writers needed to get Ronon into the show somehow, and he was obviously going to be in the wraith plot, not the secret lab plot. Ronon also needs a sub plot, he has nothing going for him atm that the writers can use. That little exchange with rodney as they walked past eachother was nothing really, just a way to make a smooth transition from the Wraith story to the secret lab story as the next few scenes involve Rodney and Daniel I believe.

Dont read into it too much, it will prolly be over very soon. Just be thankful that the writers didnt try to include Teyla in the love triangle in some way just to get her into the episode

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 06:23 AM
Stuff.
"Ronon needs to be written into the episode somehow!" - Yes, and? Good writers would write his plotlines well, not shoehorn him in with a little BS romance on the side.

Lahela
September 28th, 2008, 06:40 AM
"Ronon needs to be written into the episode somehow!" - Yes, and? Good writers would write his plotlines well, not shoehorn him in with a little BS romance on the side.

Agreed. They should also be able to write Woolsey as something other than a clown and Teyla as something other than wallpaper.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 06:42 AM
Agreed. They should also be able to write Woolsey as something other than a clown and Teyla as something other than wallpaper.
Exactly. When I started my thread about Woolsey not getting enough character development or meaningful screen time, people are going "What? He's in 14 episodes, bla bla!" as if that meant anything when he's mostly just there as the token base leader during meetings pretty much just saying "Make it so!" while the rest of the time is spent mostly being the comic relief, i.e. clown.

That's the same BS over and over again. It was funny the first time. Then it got repetitive and boring.

Linda06
September 28th, 2008, 06:51 AM
Just be thankful that the writers didnt try to include Teyla in the love triangle in some way just to get her into the episode

Oh thank goodness for small mercies ;)

ykickamoocow
September 28th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Dont read into it too much, it will prolly be over very soon. Just be thankful that the writers didnt try to include Teyla in the love triangle in some way just to get her into the episode

I personally think a Keller/McKay/Teyla love triangle would have been far more interesting :p

Linda06
September 28th, 2008, 07:18 AM
I personally think a Keller/McKay/Teyla love triangle would have been far more interesting :p

:lol:

Dwparsnip
September 28th, 2008, 07:40 AM
I personally think a Keller/McKay/Teyla love triangle would have been far more interesting :p

Never even thought of that....wish I had. ;)

I don't know PB. It all seems so haphazard and cavalier. I guess we're going to have to turn to fanfics after all.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 08:48 AM
Thank you very much, Klinjon. It's like the Twilight fans who didn't enjoy Breaking Dawn(I did, personally, so did everyone I know who's read it) claiming it was basically just a giant fanfiction.

Also, I think people need to stop claiming definitively, as though it's a known fact, that Ronon has no feelings for Jennifer at all, and only Rodney deserves her based on that. We. Don't. Know. We're not the writers, we don't know if Ronon is in love with her or not. I, personally, think he is, because he opened up to her more about Melena than he's done with anyone at all, including Sheppard, who is his best friend.

At this point, I've ceased wondering if he does love or doesn't. I'm equally ambivalent about whether Rodney loves her. What I am becoming more and more frustrated about is the lack of writing concerning Jennifer's feelings.

It's not a triangle until all 3 are involved and so far she's simply been written as the female standing between Rodney and Ronon and I personally think that's a horrible place for TPTB to put her.

As for your earlier point about OOC behaviour, just because the writers of SGA write doesn't make it universally in character. Every character has an outline, a basic set of personality traits that hold fast no matter what.

If that weren't the case then there would be no point in every introducing new characters or worrying about continuity because you could just change their personalities at will to suit the story. It'd be like multiple personality disorder run amok on SGA.

Where's the challenge in writing if you don't have to be concerned with writing characters well and honestly?


Never even thought of that....wish I had. ;)

I don't know PB. It all seems so haphazard and cavalier. I guess we're going to have to turn to fanfics after all.

Yeah well. I'd hoped (apparently against hope) that that wouldn't be true in this case, but alas I hoped in vain.

It's sad though because so much of this Season is turning into the best season ever....and then there's this.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 08:49 AM
FAII, what kind of world has it become when I begin to agree with you?

kymeric
September 28th, 2008, 09:01 AM
Haha, i mess with my friends alot worse than what Ronin is doing. I outright proposition their girls infront of them sometimes just to get a rise out of them. XD

She knows how both of them are and she probably dosent even know what she wants, sounds like a woman to me. She was obviously amused by Ronin following her like a puppy, and she made a point of saying bye Rodney WERE leaving. Breaking news: Women Vamp. More @ 11.

ykickamoocow
September 28th, 2008, 09:03 AM
Haha, i mess with my friends alot worse than what Ronin is doing. I outright proposition their girls infront of them sometimes just to get a rise out of them. XD

She knows how both of them are and she probably dosent even know what she wants, sounds like a woman to me. She was obviously amused by Ronin following her like a puppy, and she made a point of saying bye Rodney WERE leaving. Breaking news: Women Vamp. More @ 11.

She sounded quite annoyed at Ronon following her around when she was talking to Woolsey.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 09:07 AM
She sounded quite annoyed at Ronon following her around when she was talking to Woolsey.

When? In the cafeteria scene?

No, no she didn't. That was not an annoyed look on her face. That was more of a coy, "Oh really? Fancy that!" kind of look.

ykickamoocow
September 28th, 2008, 09:09 AM
When? In the cafeteria scene?

No, no she didn't. That was not an annoyed look on her face. That was more of a coy, "Oh really? Fancy that!" kind of look.

Well ive only watched the episode once.

The weird thing is that Keller seems completely oblivious to how McKay and Ronon are acting around her.

Lahela
September 28th, 2008, 09:12 AM
Well ive only watched the episode once.

The weird thing is that Keller seems completely oblivious to how McKay and Ronon are acting around her.

Oh no she's not! LOL! The giggling at Ronon, the teasing Rodney (who told her he loves her, so she knows how he feels)... it's seriously cheapening all three of them.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Well ive only watched the episode once.

The weird thing is that Keller seems completely oblivious to how McKay and Ronon are acting around her.

I KNOW! Which is the part that I hate the most about this triangle.

She's being portrayed as utterly naive and oblivious and I hate it because she can't be that naive or oblivious. It's just not possible.

We know that she's had social interactions with people before and probably a boyfriend or two (although that isn't certain), and she may not be very adept at those interactions but she at least understands them.

She was flirtatious with Ronon and interpreted his signals correctly enough to get into a "near kiss" situation with him. We know she's capable of being in a relationship due to TLM. And she knows how Rodney feels for god's sake. Yet TPTB continue to persist in writing her as if she's got some sort of wall around her when it comes to feeling the tension around her.

It's frustrating to no end because it's a major disservice to all the characters involved.

ykickamoocow
September 28th, 2008, 09:18 AM
It may seem stupid but i wish they had a episode where (and im stealing idea's from Star Trek here) Keller gets infected by something and if she doesnt have sex within 3 hours she will die. That way Keller will be forced to chose between Rodney and Ronon and the triangle would be decided very quickly and reasonably painlessly.

txTart
September 28th, 2008, 09:31 AM
The LAST people I'd entrust with something as complicated as a love triangle is the boys club at Stargate.

As for me, I find it hard to believe that Ronon doesn't have anything better to do than go hither and yon with Jennifer, just to pull Rodney's pigtails. I think its obvious that he has feelings for her.

I really wanted to like the idea of Rodney and Jennifer. I thought what happened at the end of Trio was sweet. And if the writers had propelled the idea forward from that point, had actually BUILT on that, I think it could have worked. But there was not so much as a hint that that little encounter had happened, until The Seed, when Rodney expressed concern that Jennifer wasn't getting any sleep.

And then, suddenly, in The Shrine, he's expressing his love for her. It just doesn't compute.

And the worst part of all this nonsense is that it seems like Jennifer has replaced Teyla on the team. And that's just a world of wrong.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 09:46 AM
FAII, what kind of world has it become when I begin to agree with you?
You see, my pessimism isn't so much pessimism as realism. I've seen enough TV, movies and Stargate to be able to guess my way to a lot of things.

It's not that I'm against shipping or love triangles as a principle, it's just that I knew all along that it would degenerate into something like this, which was why I was against it from the start.

As I said in "that other thread", the Stargate PTB have a track record spanning 8+ years of bad shipping and that was when there were only two people involved.

maxbo
September 28th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Tell me, my friend, what did you see between "Trio" and "The Sanctuary" to suggest that Rodney had fallen in love (and actually using the "love"-word) with Jennifer?

Nothing, which is why The Shrine was so unbelievable.

Lewisco
September 28th, 2008, 10:58 AM
i cant say i care about the traingle at all. we saw what, about 5 seconds of it? it didnt bother me regardless of how it was written. if there was a whole episode based around it then i might care somewhat, but other than that.. it didn't really affect what was an excellent episode

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 11:24 AM
i cant say i care about the traingle at all. we saw what, about 5 seconds of it? it didnt bother me regardless of how it was written. if there was a whole episode based around it then i might care somewhat, but other than that.. it didn't really affect what was an excellent episode
Amount of screen time doesn't matter. It's what happens during that screen time that matters.

If John brutally murdered a child for no good reason in "The Lost Thribe", should we not care since it was over within seconds and never revisited again?

jenks
September 28th, 2008, 12:28 PM
I thought it was really bad in this episode too. I can handle Rodney acting the way he does because he's not all there socially, but Ronon? Naa, they've written it like the sort of love triangle you'd see in Harry Potter or something. Maybe it could be salvageable if Ronon really was just having a laugh, but I think it's clear now that he's not. I just want it to die now, and soon.

Arica15
September 28th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Ok I didn't like Keller before this started (ok I loathe her) but now I'm starting to really dislike Ronan and McKay as well (trust me I didn't think disliking McKay was possible!)

What a pair of chumps they are turning out to be. I mean, why would anyone (and that includes Keller) want to be involved with two men who behave like a pair of overgrown school boys.

Jenks was right, romance in harry Potter looks sophisticated compared to this twaddle.

Lewisco
September 28th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Amount of screen time doesn't matter. It's what happens during that screen time that matters.

If John brutally murdered a child for no good reason in "The Lost Thribe", should we not care since it was over within seconds and never revisited again?

okay.. of course we'd care. for one that'd be ridiculous. and wouldnt make any sense to Shepphards character. im saying in this instance the few seconds we saw they rodney/keller/ronon triangle had no impact on the episode and was hardly much of an ordeal to sit through. unlike a child being murdered. when theres a full scene of a poorly written love traingle, then i may feel theres good reasons to complain. for the few moments we saw it, it hardly seems worth the fuss. i say, forget it. and remember the episode for what made it pretty darn amazing.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 02:55 PM
okay.. of course we'd care. for one that'd be ridiculous. and wouldnt make any sense to Shepphards character. im saying in this instance the few seconds we saw they rodney/keller/ronon triangle had no impact on the episode and was hardly much of an ordeal to sit through. unlike a child being murdered. when theres a full scene of a poorly written love traingle, then i may feel theres good reasons to complain. for the few moments we saw it, it hardly seems worth the fuss. i say, forget it. and remember the episode for what made it pretty darn amazing.

That's all well and good, and I wasn't saying that the triangle ruined the episode. I was merely pointing out that an aspect of the episode (and an on-going arc on the show this season) was, IMO, written poorly.

The problem that I have with it is that it won't just be isolated to this one episode. There will be more and, quite frankly, I'd rather not see more of it if we're just going to be shown more of the same shoddy characterizations.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 02:58 PM
okay.. of course we'd care. for one that'd be ridiculous. and wouldnt make any sense to Shepphards character.
Meanwhile, Ronon's actions aren't at all ridiculous or out of character?


im saying in this instance the few seconds we saw they rodney/keller/ronon triangle had no impact on the episode and was hardly much of an ordeal to sit through. unlike a child being murdered.
Hey, John randomly murdering a child for no good reason while no one sees him, an action never spoken of again (thus, no impact on the episode or the show) which lasts only a few seconds...


when theres a full scene of a poorly written love traingle, then i may feel theres good reasons to complain. for the few moments we saw it, it hardly seems worth the fuss. i say, forget it. and remember the episode for what made it pretty darn amazing.
I'm sorry, have you seen the past two episodes? It amounts to "a few scenes". Also, what makes you think it'll stop here? Have you not been watching the show for the past 11 years?

Poor shipping, it's what the Stargate PTB do.

This triangle is going to persist. It's going to be popping up again. It's going to be shoved into our faces. And it's probably going to stay on the same level of writing (bad).

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 03:00 PM
Hell has officially frozen over. FAII? Get out of my head.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Meanwhile, Ronon's actions aren't at all ridiculous or out of character?


Hey, John randomly murdering a child for no good reason while no one sees him, an action never spoken of again (thus, no impact on the episode or the show) which lasts only a few seconds...


I'm sorry, have you seen the past two episodes? It amounts to "a few scenes". Also, what makes you think it'll stop here? Have you not been watching the show for the past 11 years?

Poor shipping, it's what the Stargate PTB do.

This triangle is going to persist. It's going to be popping up again. It's going to be shoved into our faces. And it's probably going to stay on the same level of writing (bad).

Ok...really?...really? Lets go with the first thing you said...Ronan's actions being out of character..sooo your saying he is incapable of having feelings for anyone other the rage respect and annoyance? wow...I didn't realize Ronan was so shallow...

Next...a love triangle and someone killing a baby are kind of two different things...just a little bit...just a thought...

And lastly...oh for pete's sake let it go...how is the presence of a love triangle ruining anything...stop moaning about it...it's hasn't become "who is sleeping with who" nor will it ever...all it's doing is givng McKay a chance to be genuinely vulnerable and Ronan a chance to move on from past painful experiences (a.k.a. his wife being killed) so seriosuly...grow up and let it go

fumblesmcstupid
September 28th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Why should we not be allowed to be frustrated over the poorly conceived idea of putting two friends against each other for the prize of Keller? These characters should not be forced to deal with this crap. I really am PO'd because it is showing Ronon not caring about Keller just showing Rodney up! his look was like "Ha ha I am going with her and you're not" this, this has no place on SGA.

Seeing as the triangle and the romancing of Keller effects the last few episodes of the show, I'd say yes we have a right to be mad!

If Ronon really likes Keller and she chooses him then Rodney gets hurt. How is this fun? It will also get in the way of how these two men work together!

The triangle is horrible!

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 03:55 PM
I can't believe I'm about to do this, but here goes...


Ok...really?...really? Lets go with the first thing you said...Ronan's actions being out of character..sooo your saying he is incapable of having feelings for anyone other the rage respect and annoyance? wow...I didn't realize Ronan was so shallow...

It's not the feelings and emotions beyond violence that are OOC. It's the smirking and the arrogance. The disrespect and the jerkoff-ish behaviour. The juvenile antics that have him smirking back at Rodney as he runs off to the Deadalus with Jennifer.



And lastly...oh for pete's sake let it go...how is the presence of a love triangle ruining anything...stop moaning about it...it's hasn't become "who is sleeping with who" nor will it ever...all it's doing is givng McKay a chance to be genuinely vulnerable and Ronan a chance to move on from past painful experiences (a.k.a. his wife being killed) so seriosuly...grow up and let it go

And how.

It's not the presence of a love triangle that is infuriating. And you will not that in every other thread before now, I have vehemently supported this triangle. It's how TPTB are choosing to portray the characters involved. Reducing them to mere caricatures.

I never once thought that Jennifer could be so dense. Or that Rodney could look so desperate. Or that Ronon could be such a jerk.

This triangle could have been done in such a way that it preserved the characters. Unfortunately, I'm just not seeing that play out on screen.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 04:00 PM
Why should we not be allowed to be frustrated over the poorly conceived idea of putting two friends against each other for the prize of Keller? These characters should not be forced to deal with this crap. I really am PO'd because it is showing Ronon not caring about Keller just showing Rodney up! his look was like "Ha ha I am going with her and you're not" this, this has no place on SGA.

Seeing as the triangle and the romancing of Keller effects the last few episodes of the show, I'd say yes we have a right to be mad!

If Ronon really likes Keller and she chooses him then Rodney gets hurt. How is this fun? It will also get in the way of how these two men work together!

The triangle is horrible!

so...wait...competitiveness isn't part of Ronan's personality? since when? I think Teal'c would have something to say about that. And why the Keller bashing? all I've heard is it's poorly written but no one has given an accurate reason

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 04:03 PM
so...wait...competitiveness isn't part of Ronan's personality? since when? I think Teal'c would have something to say about that. And why the Keller bashing? all I've heard is it's poorly written but no one has given an accurate reason

Check out the previous pages. I'm sure you'll find a few.

AVFan
September 28th, 2008, 04:04 PM
As a guy who has watched too many sitcoms, I enjoy this triangle for the most part. I think maybe Keller has been a bit too naive about it thus far, but that could be explained as her internalizing it, instead of actually saying anything.

That part in FC with the triangle made me almost bust out laughing. IDK, maybe I it's because I can relate to McKay and his social ineptitude, and how he realizes that 'winning' against Ronan ought to be virtually impossible.

How exactly did this get to be compared with killing a baby?

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Check out the previous pages. I'm sure you'll find a few.

I've seen some...interesting...excuses but nothing to explain why showing depth in characters is a bad thing

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 04:06 PM
As a guy who has watched too many sitcoms, I enjoy this triangle for the most part. I think maybe Keller has been a bit too naive about it thus far, but that could be explained as her internalizing it, instead of actually saying anything.

That part in FC with the triangle made me almost bust out laughing. IDK, maybe I it's because I can relate to McKay and his social ineptitude, and how he realizes that 'winning' against Ronan ought to be virtually impossible.

If this whole triangle had been played for laughs from the start, then I'd appreciate the humour. But it hasn't, so it seems weird to start that now.



How exactly did this get to be compared with killing a baby?

Something about OOC behaviour.....in short? :: shrug ::

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 04:15 PM
I've seen some...interesting...excuses but nothing to explain why showing depth in characters is a bad thing

So, in essence, you see nothing wrong with this love triangle being reduced to a competition between Ronon and Rodney for a woman who seems oblivious to the whole thing and is, in effect, encouraging them both?

Because I see plenty wrong with this version of Jennifer. She's apparently so naive as to not see that these men are interested in her when it is plain as the light of day. And is also so lacking in compassion that she's oblivious to the fact that the man who professed his love for her (Rodney) had been hoping for some personal time with her in Tracker and negates to mention to him that Ronon would be joining them. Then she stands around and stares as they both whip out their measuring sticks to determine whose is bigger while fighting over who gets to carry her bags.

I also see plenty wrong with this Ronon who has taken it upon himself to be around her so often that he's now known as her "protector" (don't get me started on how demeaning to Jennifer that is, the thought that she would need one in the first place) and then proceeds to rub it in Rodney's face when he is around her. He shows no respect towards a teammate that he fought to save in The Shrine, going so far as to say that, "he owed [Rodney]" that last bit of dignity. Now they're at war over a woman? Friends don't do that.

And Rodney? Desperate and incapable of expressing himself. Yet again. Where's the growth there? The depth of character? Growth would have been him confronting Jennifer, not Ronon, at the end of Tracker so as to ascertain her intentions. Because in starting a potential relationship between two people, she's the one she should be talking to. Not initiating a competition with Ronon.

Reason enough for you?

AVFan
September 28th, 2008, 04:18 PM
If this whole triangle had been played for laughs from the start, then I'd appreciate the humour. But it hasn't, so it seems weird to start that now.

When was the start then? For some, it could have started last season with Trio or Quarantine- the first episodes with Ronan/Keller, McKay/Keller relationships. Others may have seen it start as recently as this season with Tracker. Personally, I thought Tracker was the start of it because even with what happened at the end of The Shrine, we, as viewers, did not know if Ronan was still interested.

So for me, ever since Trio/Quarantine, I guessed something like this might happen, and if it did, it would have to be humorous. For it to be played any other way, IMO, would be like a Soap.

fumblesmcstupid
September 28th, 2008, 04:23 PM
It really isn't the competitive attitude between the two men (they just look like idiots) fighting over her. It's the fact that one of them is going to loose and will be hurt. I know I am getting tired of it already. So it was a look, big deal right? No! It should not be in the episodes!

I watch SGA for adventure and sci-fi elements not romance.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 04:26 PM
Ok...really?...really? Lets go with the first thing you said...Ronan's actions being out of character..sooo your saying he is incapable of having feelings for anyone other the rage respect and annoyance? wow...I didn't realize Ronan was so shallow...
Funny, you only make the assumptions that suit your argument.

Ronon acting like a jerk and smirking at Rodney in a "Ha!"-gesture, that's OOC.


Next...a love triangle and someone killing a baby are kind of two different things...just a little bit...just a thought...
No one's arguing they're the same. I'm saying just because it's not on-screen for minutes at a time doesn't mean we cannot find it annoying.

You (or whoever else it was) spoke as if it'd be absurd to ever get annoyed at something which only takes up a few seconds or a minute or two of an episode.


Stuff.
We find it to be badly written. The mere presence is not bad. I've said this many times. It's just that the writers have shown themselves to be incapable of writing good ships in the past and this one is looking no different.

We dislike the triangle for being badly written. The fact that it's a triangle makes it harder to write than a normal 2-person relationship. The writers fail even at that, why would they succeed with a triangle, which is already turning out to be badly written?


Next...a love triangle and someone killing a baby are kind of two different things...just a little bit...just a thought.


How exactly did this get to be compared with killing a baby?
Because (and I see this a lot since I'm a regular at quite a few forums) some people seem incapable of understanding plain English (I've read that some people change the things they read to suit them better).

I clearly wrote "child" twice. Shpinxinator transformed this into "baby". Be it subconsciously or consciously, it was probably to make my comparison (which is valid) sound more shocking and ludicrous since murdering a baby is more reprehensible than murdering a child (whose age could be as high as 17).

I always make it a point to try to read as closely as possible to make sure I've understood what someone's saying before replying to them. Others don't. This is why so many controversies arise on forums, people skim, misread or mentally rewrite posts and thus arises a misunderstanding because you've got someone disagreeing with someone else for something they didn't actually say.

Others who read the 2nd person's response will assume they are correct (i.e. if they claim the 1st person used the word "baby") since most people are too lazy to actually read or even skim most posts and even read what's quoted in someone's reply.

Case in point, "child" -> "baby".

English is my third language, yet I can manage to avoid this most of the time.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 04:27 PM
So, in essence, you see nothing wrong with this love triangle being reduced to a competition between Ronon and Rodney for a woman who seems oblivious to the whole thing and is, in effect, encouraging them both?

Because I see plenty wrong with this version of Jennifer. She's apparently so naive as to not see that these men are interested in her when it is plain as the light of day. And is also so lacking in compassion that she's oblivious to the fact that the man who professed his love for her (Rodney) had been hoping for some personal time with her in Tracker and negates to mention to him that Ronon would be joining them. Then she stands around and stares as they both whip out their measuring sticks to determine whose is bigger while fighting over who gets to carry her bags.

I also see plenty wrong with this Ronon who has taken it upon himself to be around her so often that he's now known as her "protector" (don't get me started on how demeaning to Jennifer that is, the thought that she would need one in the first place) and then proceeds to rub it in Rodney's face when he is around her. He shows no respect towards a teammate that he fought to save in The Shrine, going so far as to say that, "he owed [Rodney]" that last bit of dignity. Now they're at war over a woman? Friends don't do that.

And Rodney? Desperate and incapable of expressing himself. Yet again. Where's the growth there? The depth of character? Growth would have been him confronting Jennifer, not Ronon, at the end of Tracker so as to ascertain her intentions. Because in starting a potential relationship between two people, she's the one she should be talking to. Not initiating a competition with Ronon.

Reason enough for you?

Yyyyyes....if you don't understand character development...or think of them as real people...Keller is a professional woman...someone who has obviously spent most of her life working towards her goals (I.E.) the medical field so it's safe to say her personal life has suffered as a result...so its not to much of a stretch to think she may be a little naive when it comes to men.

McKay's growth comes from the fact that yes he's expression comes difficultly, however he's to the point which he is willing to fight for a relationship...against Ronan of all people, who intimidate him the most...I see a great deal of growth there.

And Ronan...again he's competitive...he's a hunter so of course he's gonna get his jollys from rattling McKay's cage

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Yyyyyes....if you don't understand character development...or think of them as real people...Keller is a professional woman...someone who has obviously spent most of her life working towards her goals (I.E.) the medical field so it's safe to say her personal life has suffered as a result...so its not to much of a stretch to think she may be a little naive when it comes to men.

But she apparently is well-schooled enough to have interpreted the signals from Ronon well enough in Quarantine that they almost kissed. She was adept enough at social situations to engage in a romantic relationship with Rodney in TLM and to flirt with him quite adeptly in The Shrine and be communicate with him with much humour and skill in Trio.



McKay's growth comes from the fact that yes he's expression comes difficultly, however he's to the point which he is willing to fight for a relationship...against Ronan of all people, who intimidate him the most...I see a great deal of growth there.

He's not fighting for the relationship. He's fighting for the chance to be in a relationship with Jennifer. There's a difference.

The fact that TPTB had him confront Ronon makes this not Rodney trying to woo the love of his life, but competing for the love of his life with someone he thinks also has claim to her. That's why I don't like this.



And Ronan...again he's competitive...he's a hunter so of course he's gonna get his jollys from rattling McKay's cage

But that's just not behaviour you conduct yourself with amongst friends. It's disrespectful and it's cruel. Who needs enemies when you have friends like that?

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 04:36 PM
And Ronan...again he's competitive...he's a hunter so of course he's gonna get his jollys from rattling McKay's cage
Yes, because being a hunter and competitive obviously also means you're a jerk and like to play around with people's emotions and incite rage, jealousy and sadness just for "the lulz".

Also, reply to my previous post (the one preceeding your post, the one I'm currently quoting). Note that I just edited in a large amount of text into it, so reread it if you've already read it.

AVFan
September 28th, 2008, 04:37 PM
So, in essence, you see nothing wrong with this love triangle being reduced to a competition between Ronon and Rodney for a woman who seems oblivious to the whole thing and is, in effect, encouraging them both?

Because I see plenty wrong with this version of Jennifer. She's apparently so naive as to not see that these men are interested in her when it is plain as the light of day. And is also so lacking in compassion that she's oblivious to the fact that the man who professed his love for her (Rodney) had been hoping for some personal time with her in Tracker and negates to mention to him that Ronon would be joining them. Then she stands around and stares as they both whip out their measuring sticks to determine whose is bigger while fighting over who gets to carry her bags.

I also see plenty wrong with this Ronon who has taken it upon himself to be around her so often that he's now known as her "protector" (don't get me started on how demeaning to Jennifer that is, the thought that she would need one in the first place) and then proceeds to rub it in Rodney's face when he is around her. He shows no respect towards a teammate that he fought to save in The Shrine, going so far as to say that, "he owed [Rodney]" that last bit of dignity. Now they're at war over a woman? Friends don't do that.

And Rodney? Desperate and incapable of expressing himself. Yet again. Where's the growth there? The depth of character? Growth would have been him confronting Jennifer, not Ronon, at the end of Tracker so as to ascertain her intentions. Because in starting a potential relationship between two people, she's the one she should be talking to. Not initiating a competition with Ronon.

Reason enough for you?
As for her being completely oblivious, like I said in my first post, I think that I would just choose to believe that we have just not seen that part of Keller yet. If she were to have blown the whistle in FC or Tracker, then it wouldn't make for any sort of funny storyline with the triangle gone kaputs. Imagine, if you would (excuse my horrible dialogue writing skills):

McKay: I'll carry her bags!

Ronan: No I'll do it!

Keller: Ok, guys stop it. You know I'm never dating either of you anyways. I like Chuck. (lol!)

What could have lasted for ten-ish episodes is gone in half a scene, and completely annihilates an episode storyline.

Of course she'll have to make a decision on them eventually. But in the meantime, I think she's just playing dumb.

BTW, they're holding a friendly competition (I don't want it to sound like a friendly game of basketball, but it's no all out war). I don't interpret it to be a big fight between Ronan and McKay.

fumblesmcstupid
September 28th, 2008, 04:38 PM
Jollys??

Rodney and Ronon are on the same team and are/USED to be friends. In the Shrine Ronon was willing to fight Wraith to get Rodney to The Shrine. Now he is getting his JOLLYS at going for the same girl that Rodney Likes!

That is not the Ronon I have watched for four years!

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 04:41 PM
But that's just not behaviour you conduct yourself with amongst friends. It's disrespectful and it's cruel. Who needs enemies when you have friends like that?

Oh for pete's sake...You've honestly never had a friend tease or frustrate you for a little laugh? really?



The fact that TPTB had him confront Ronon makes this not Rodney trying to woo the love of his life, but competing for the love of his life with someone he thinks also has claim to her. That's why I don't like this.

...have you...completely ignored McKay's character up to now? He's not the greats social body...he doesn't know any better...

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Of course she'll have to make a decision on them eventually. But in the meantime, I think she's just playing dumb.
Why, because it's fun? You don't play around with love. Especially not at their ages and with what they do (they risk their lives on a daily basis, well, not so much Jennifer).



BTW, they're holding a friendly competition (I don't want it to sound like a friendly game of basketball, but it's no all out war). I don't interpret it to be a big fight between Ronan and McKay.
I'm sorry, how old are you? They're not 15. Ronon's already loved and lost the love of his life and become jaded. While Jennifer is supposedly young, Rodney and Ronon are 40-ish.

You don't play around and "hold friendly competitions" over love at that age. In fact, I would never dream of doing it (I wouldn't at 15 either) and I'm only 23. Some of us are mature enough to recognize that love isn't something you play around with, especially not when you're leading a life which could lead to your death any day now.

Some mature at a young age, but most have come to that point once they turn 30. It's what happens when one has gone through life dating and searching for true love and realized that it's not something easily found and to play around with.

AVFan
September 28th, 2008, 04:43 PM
Yes, because being a hunter and competitive obviously also means you're a jerk and like to play around with people's emotions and incite rage, jealousy and sadness just for "the lulz".

Also, reply to my previous post (the one preceeding your post, the one I'm currently quoting). Note that I just edited in a large amount of text into it, so reread it if you've already read it.

I don't think Ronan is doing this only to make McKay squirm. I think he's got a legit interest in Keller also.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 04:43 PM
Stuff
Shpinxinator, you seem to either have missed my past two replies directly to you or you're pretending to have missed them, hoping that'll get you off the hook. Here they are, go wild:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=9010256&postcount=58
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=9010300&postcount=61

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 04:44 PM
I don't think Ronan is doing this only to make McKay squirm. I think he's got a legit interest in Keller also.
Stop rewriting what I write in your head to suit your arguments better.

I never said anything remotely like that. What I said was in response to Ronon "playing around" with Rodney, as in having some kind of demented contest and smirking at him, things you usually don't do at his age and with his experience, not to mention against friends, being a result of him being a hunter and competitive.

You just don't do that at his age, with his experience (with love and life) and against friends.

fumblesmcstupid
September 28th, 2008, 04:45 PM
Momoa is 28/29
Stait is 26/27
Hewlett 40

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 04:47 PM
Haha oh goodness now now now there is no need to get so defensive

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Momoa is 28/29
Stait is 26/27
Hewlett 40
Fine, Momoa is 30-ish. I thought he was 30-something. 28-29 is still an age where most men have gone past the immature "Love can be played around with!" age, especially considering Ronon was once married, was a Runner for several years, where he couldn't even form friendships, let alone romantic relationships and he's currently leading a life where he could be killed each time he goes off world (which is very often).

Lead a life like that and you will have wised up and learned that love is something precious, something you can't find easily and that it's not something to toyed with or tease others over, especially not when they're friends.

Which is why he comes off as such as jerk in this episode.


Haha oh goodness now now now there is no need to get so defensive
Stop stalling and actually reply to my posts. And you seem to have the wrong definition of "defensive". My post was accusatory.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 04:52 PM
Stop stalling and actually reply to my posts. And you seem to have the wrong definition of "defensive". My post was accusatory.

Haha oh for pete's sake...I have responded I've said my peace but your just being silly because McKay seems to be losing to Ronan...I know it must be a very offensive that someone disagrees with you so...I'm very sorry but I don't agree

AVFan
September 28th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Why, because it's fun? You don't play around with love. Especially not at their ages and with what they do (they risk their lives on a daily basis, well, not so much Jennifer).
I think she just has much more pressing matters on her mind than deciding between two guys. And imagine the fallout if she just all the sudden picked one over the other. If she picked Ronan, McKay would be either devastated or whiny, or both. If she picked McKay, well, who knows what Ronan would do. This is to not even mention her feelings for either of them.


I'm sorry, how old are you? They're not 15. Ronon's already loved and lost the love of his life and become jaded. While Jennifer is supposedly young, Rodney and Ronon are 40-ish.

You don't play around and "hold friendly competitions" over love at that age. In fact, I would never dream of doing it (I wouldn't at 15 either) and I'm only 23. Some of us are mature enough to recognize that love isn't something you play around with, especially not when you're leading a life which could lead to your death any day now.

Some mature at a young age, but most have come to that point once they turn 30. It's what happens when one has gone through life dating and searching for true love and realized that it's not something easily found and to play around with. Proves my above point^.

I only meant by "friendly competition", that McKay and Ronan are not at each others' throats, poisoning each others' food, and trying to eliminate the other one from the "race" completely, a la, a soap opera.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 04:57 PM
BTW, they're holding a friendly competition (I don't want it to sound like a friendly game of basketball, but it's no all out war). I don't interpret it to be a big fight between Ronan and McKay.

I guess I just don't see how the competition can be all that friendly when we're talking about a woman that Rodney loves.

As for that scene you mentioned, I actually would have liked to see Jennifer just pick the bags up herself, roll her eyes at the two high-schoolers who had replaced her team mates, and walked through the gate.


Oh for pete's sake...You've honestly never had a friend tease or frustrate you for a little laugh? really?

Yes, I have. And I do it all the time myself. But there is a time and a place and I can honestly say that if my friend and I were interested in the same guy, or if one of us loved him like Rodney apparently loves Jennifer, neither of us would behave like these two.

It's different when you're talking about something that could ruin a friendship and love has the potential to do that. Getting over losing the woman you love to a friend is not easy and it would only be made harder by knowing that the friend relished in teasing you about it.



...have you...completely ignored McKay's character up to now? He's not the greats social body...he doesn't know any better...

I guess I'll just have to disagree with you on that.

Coaster
September 28th, 2008, 05:00 PM
Stop rewriting what I write in your head to suit your arguments better.

I never said anything remotely like that. What I said was in response to Ronon "playing around" with Rodney, as in having some kind of demented contest and smirking at him, things you usually don't do at his age and with his experience, not to mention against friends, being a result of him being a hunter and competitive.

You just don't do that at his age, with his experience (with love and life) and against friends.

It does all seem awfully OOC for the Ronon we've come to know over the years. I don't know if the writers are "trying something different" with the characters or what, but it's a bit jarring.

mellow yellow
September 28th, 2008, 05:01 PM
OK, I'm almost afraid to post here but this just smack me right in the face and after reading all the post I couldn't help but jump in..I know its a sickness :)


Oh come now peoples!!!

Writers needed to get Ronon into the show somehow, and he was obviously going to be in the wraith plot, not the secret lab plot. Ronon also needs a sub plot, he has nothing going for him atm that the writers can use. That little exchange with rodney as they walked past eachother was nothing really, just a way to make a smooth transition from the Wraith story to the secret lab story as the next few scenes involve Rodney and Daniel I believe.

Dont read into it too much, it will prolly be over very soon. Just be thankful that the writers didnt try to include Teyla in the love triangle in some way just to get her into the episode

LOL, well put..sometimes I think we all over react to some of the little scenes when TPTB has no intentions of sending any messages..I'll give an example, I was sure there was some other meaning to Shep and McKay's conversation about him going off world with Keller..Carl answered on Joe M's blog that there was no sub text..only that Shep was suprised..I wouldn't have believed that if it wasn't Carl B. that said it.


At this point, I've ceased wondering if he does love or doesn't. I'm equally ambivalent about whether Rodney loves her. What I am becoming more and more frustrated about is the lack of writing concerning Jennifer's feelings.

I'm with you on this one Pandora..what are Jenn's feelings. I doubt she is that oblivious to Ronon and McKay's behavior. I want to see some indication from her as to who she wants to be with (since I'm a a Ronon/Jenn shipper I would have to say she seems to favor Ronon) But this love triangle can't continue.

Overall, I still don't know what to think about how this love triangle is written since its harldy in the show and only few lines are used to address it.

As far as the characters - OCC, I don't see that at all. McKay isn't sitting around not working and crying over Jenn and Ronon leaving together. He is human and of course we've all been there when we see the person we have a crush on walking/talking/leaving with someone else..and it feels like a kick in the gut...McKay is human he had his personal moment and then went right back to work. OCC would have been him crying on Daniel's shoulder instead of doing his work :)

As for Ronon I feel if you don't like the character you will take what he does in a negative way. I for one don't see how him liking Keller and acting like he likes her when he is around her as OCC. He isn't walking around dancing and singing in the hallways in Atlantis and he isn't stopping in the middle of battle so he can stare at Keller. OCC to me would have been if in Tracker while walking to the gate he decided to hold Keller's hand or stop and make out with her because he was so relief she was safe..no instead he continued on as expected. Now if he wants to hold her hand or make out with her while in the comforts of his or her quaters then thats fine and not OCC..but some might think it is since he is a warrior/caveman and not capable of having intimate feelings.

As for the smirk..I don't think it was a smirk to insult McKay or even rub it in his face. Ronon was all smiles when he was walking and talking with Jenn (again I don't see this as OCC because they were on Atlantis and having a conversation) and I'm sure they did not plan to see McKay.

He was just all smiles..Dang people! haven't you ever liked someone that you just smiled..so he was smiling and just continued smiling...and notice it wasn't Ronon who called to McKay..it was Jenn.

I've been going off on a rant..sorry if its confusing and nothing I said make any sense :)

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 05:01 PM
I guess I'll just have to disagree with you on that.

I appreciate you saying this...so lets agree to disagree

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 05:07 PM
As for Ronon I feel if you don't like the character you will take what he does in a negative way. I for one don't see how him liking Keller and acting like he likes her when he is around her as OCC. He isn't walking around dancing and singing in the hallways in Atlantis and he isn't stopping in the middle of battle so he can stare at Keller. OCC to me would have been if in Tracker while walking to the gate he decided to hold Keller's hand or stop and make out with her because he was so relief she was safe..no instead he continued on as expected. Now if he wants to hold her hand or make out with her while in the comforts of his or her quaters then thats fine and not OCC..but some might think it is since he is a warrior/caveman and not capable of having intimate feelings.

It's not that I see it in a negative way. I just don't see these actions as ones that the characters would engage in.

I don't know. Maybe it's my hatred of men generally fighting over women that has me despising the development of this triangle, but I can't help but think that this could have been written better.



He was just all smiles..Dang people! haven't you ever liked someone that you just smiled..so he was smiling and just continued smiling...and notice it wasn't Ronon who called to McKay..it was Jenn.


Further proving my point that TPTB have apparently decided that she lacks any semblance of a compassionate bone in her body.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 05:08 PM
I appreciate you saying this...so lets agree to disagree

Well that's....succinct. And a bit of a downer. No pithy comebacks or retorts or opposing arguments?

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 05:11 PM
Well that's....succinct. And a bit of a downer. No pithy comebacks or retorts or opposing arguments?

*shrug* I said my peace...I try not to be pithy and my arguments have been said...

In closing I suppose I could say I am really hoping for McKay

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 05:17 PM
*shrug* I said my peace...I try not to be pithy and my arguments have been said...

In closing I suppose I could say I am really hoping for McKay

YES!!!

Score another one for McKay. :: nods head respectfully :: Nice talking to you too.

mellow yellow
September 28th, 2008, 05:19 PM
It's not that I see it in a negative way. I just don't see these actions as ones that the characters would engage in.

I don't know. Maybe it's my hatred of men generally fighting over women that has me despising the development of this triangle, but I can't help but think that this could have been written better.

Further proving my point that TPTB have apparently decided that she lacks any semblance of a compassionate bone in her body.

Yes, I agree with you 100% that this triangle could have been written better..or better yet no triangle at all..just develop one relationship and leave the 3rd party out of it. This triangle thing just started so lets just see how it goes in the next couple of episodes.....

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 05:20 PM
Of course if Teal'c joined the fray...I might have to reconsider

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 05:21 PM
Of course if Teal'c joined the fray...I might have to reconsider

Sacrilege!

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 05:24 PM
Sacrilege!

Bah now thats just silly

AVFan
September 28th, 2008, 05:31 PM
Sacrilege!
lol, yeah.

I am also voting/rooting for McKay.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 05:39 PM
I think she just has much more pressing matters on her mind than deciding between two guys. And imagine the fallout if she just all the sudden picked one over the other. If she picked Ronan, McKay would be either devastated or whiny, or both. If she picked McKay, well, who knows what Ronan would do. This is to not even mention her feelings for either of them.
The fallout will be less bad if she strings them both on for weeks or months and let their feelings deepen?


I only meant by "friendly competition", that McKay and Ronan are not at each others' throats, poisoning each others' food, and trying to eliminate the other one from the "race" completely, a la, a soap opera.
I'm sorry, what part of "Love is not something you have 'friendly competitions' over" was too Southern American Spanish para ti para aprender?


Haha oh for pete's sake...I have responded I've said my peace but your just being silly because McKay seems to be losing to Ronan...I know it must be a very offensive that someone disagrees with you so...I'm very sorry but I don't agree
Funny, you haven't responded to my two last posts to you at all.

I'm not "being silly" just because Rodney is losing to Ronon. I don't even like Jennifer. If I had my way, neither man would be vying for her. Your baseless accusations to throw people off the subject aren't working.

Also, I'm a passionate debate. In debates, you enter with opinions or stances and prove or support them with evidence. I do this all the time and so can you.

It is, however, bad form to throw out "evidence" and then running and hiding when called upon it by saying "Let's just agree to disagree" and "You're just being silly because your favorite is losing".

gebtkd
September 28th, 2008, 05:42 PM
O.k I'm throwing this out there because I'm curious to know if anybody thinks the same. Does anyone think that maybe Keller enlisted Ronon's help to get Rodney out of his shell. Ronon seems to be the confident, he knew about Teyla & Kanan when John didn't. Could it be that Keller confided in Ronon during their sparring lessons about Rodney's declaration and that he is helping her. What do you think, I just don't buy the whole competition thing, either that, when Keller finds out what the two of them are doing, she might just dumb them both.

Reiko
September 28th, 2008, 05:42 PM
I saw the love triangle coming this way a longtime ago. Like FAII said, Stargate has a horrible track record when it comes to shipping.

And, I don't put that much faith in the writers.


Alright, what some people don't seem to understand is, the writers are the ones writing the characters, and they can do it how they want, it's not out of character, as much as you want to think it is.

When it contradicts the original canon? Yes, it is. We've had Rodney for more than five years and Ronon a little over three. We've only had Keller for two, and with writing all over the board it's definately not helping her at all. It's a lose/lose situation for all of them.

Rac80
September 28th, 2008, 05:44 PM
I will add my nickle's worth... I STILL haven't seen anything that proves to me that this triangle isn't all in Rodney's head. By that I mean, it's obvious Jennifer and Ronon are spending time together, seeking each other out, and mckay really isn't in the picture in jenn's mind. But then most of his relationships have been in his head, except for Katie that is, (see SGA, s2- grace under pressure and various other comments to sam over the years) and besides being simply friendly I haven't seen Jennifer show any overt interest in him. So the triangle is merely another reason for mckay to WHINE, which he does so well! :P :S that is IMHO so take it for what it's worth ;)

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Also, I'm a passionate debate. In debates, you enter with opinions or stances and prove or support them with evidence. I do this all the time and so can you.

It is, however, bad form to throw out "evidence" and then running and hiding when called upon it by saying "Let's just agree to disagree" and "You're just being silly because your favorite is losing".

And don't forget to check out the 1000 page rule-book entitled, "How to Debate With Aplomb!" for the low, low price of 7 payments of $19.95!

On sale at supermarkets and drugstores everywhere! Now!

[/sarcasm]

DrJenniferDex
September 28th, 2008, 05:46 PM
Except the writers can change the canon if they like. It's their creation, not ours.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Except the writers can change the canon if they like. It's their creation, not ours.

But if they're constantly doing that then what's the point?

There will never be any tension in any sort of situation because the writers can just change any character to suit the environment at will.

That's hardly what writing and writing well is about.

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 05:48 PM
O.k I'm throwing this out there because I'm curious to know if anybody thinks the same. Does anyone think that maybe Keller enlisted Ronon's help to get Rodney out of his shell. Ronon seems to be the confident, he knew about Teyla & Kanan when John didn't. Could it be that Keller confided in Ronon during their sparring lessons about Rodney's declaration and that he is helping her. What do you think, I just don't buy the whole competition thing, either that, when Keller finds out what the two of them are doing, she might just dumb them both.
He's helping Rodney out of his shell by giving Rodney anxiety and emotional scars by making him feel inadequate and that he has to compete for the love of the woman he loves against a close friend of his?

If this is the plan, then I'm prepared to declare Jennifer and Ronon idiots right here, right now.


Random stuff.
Yes, it's all in Rodney's head. When Rodney told Jennifer he "had loved her for a very long time", she didn't smile fondly at all. She didn't go and view the clip of him saying it again in private at all. Additionally, hearing this, she didn't just go and tell him that she just doesn't feel the same at all, but instead strings him along "for the lulz".

Even if he doesn't remember saying it, he still has feelings for her. If she doesn't feel the same, then she should just tell him. If what you say is true, then I'm prepared to declare her cruel and sadistic right here, right now.


Except the writers can change the canon if they like. It's their creation, not ours.
So there's really no "in character" or "out of character" behavior. It's all "what the writer feels like". Established character traits aren't established at all. They're just what the writers felt like writing for the moment.

There is no continuity. Next week, we might return to an AU-version where Elizabeth is still in charge and it'll be the continuity we'll be following for the rest of the season.

Also, changing continuity is called ret-conning. And it is frowned upon. Especially if it occurs often.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 05:57 PM
Haha FAII...calm down...seriously it was cute now its kind of...well funny...continue

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 05:59 PM
Haha FAII...calm down...seriously it was cute now its kind of...well funny...continue
I am perfectly calm. I'm just accusing you of wrongdoing... in a calm manner. Now instead of trying to brush it off by joking, accusing me of a bunch of things or just pretending like you missed my posts, how about you reply to the post you claim to have replied to (<-- I'm perfectly calm, bold is emphasis, not anger)?

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Excuse me? I have replied to you time and again...now...I am no longer in high school and I am done with this petty behavior (<---italicized is fanzy smanzy wiritng, not sarcasm)

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 06:07 PM
Excuse me? I have replied to you time and again...now...I am no longer in high school and I am done with this petty behavior (<---italicized is fanzy smanzy wiritng, not sarcasm)
Not those two specific posts. So you're saying you replied to me twice, thus you no longer want to reply to my posts and declare the discussion over with despite my last two posts bringing up points you have yet to address?

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 06:09 PM
This is actually entertaining now that I am viewing it from the outside.

:: munches on popcorn :: Who wants some?

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 06:09 PM
Not those two specific posts. So you're saying you replied to me twice, thus you no longer want to reply to my posts and declare the discussion over with despite my last two posts bringing up points you have yet to address?

Ok...seriously? I did...I stated my argument again and again...you don't want to hear it so Im done playing your game

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 06:11 PM
Ok...seriously? I did...I stated my argument again and again...you don't want to hear it so Im done playing your game
Your arguments are faulty as I keep findings faults in them and addressing them. In every post, I dig up new stuff we have yet to discuss.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 06:11 PM
This is actually entertaining now that I am viewing it from the outside.

:: munches on popcorn :: Who wants some?

Oooo thank you

*nibbles popcorn and hums "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm ok..."

mellow yellow
September 28th, 2008, 06:15 PM
What have been OCC for McKay and Ronon so far?

As far the love confession..we don't know what else is on that tape and why Jenn was watching it over and over..yea I didn't like that either..but all we know is what McKay said not what Jenn may have said or what else McKay might have said..and I don't blame Jenn for not taking it serious..he was sick at the time, perhaps she is waiting for him to say something now that he is better..he asked her out to dinner...which I didn't see her saying yes to..so whether or not he remembers these things if his feelings where there before then McKay needs to man up and go ask her out :)

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 06:16 PM
Oooo thank you

*nibbles popcorn and hums "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm ok..."

:: passes the popcorn :: You want M&Ms too? They're peanut.

Another note about the poorly conceived triangle. Is this just because TPTB honestly can't write romantic relationships believably or are they actually making it this weird on purpose?

Is this a vicarious thrill thing?

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 06:20 PM
:: passes the popcorn :: You want M&Ms too? They're peanut.


...hm....dark...or milk chocolate?

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 06:20 PM
What have been OCC for McKay and Ronon so far?

As far the love confession..we don't know what else is on that tape and why Jenn was watching it over and over..yea I didn't like that either..but all we know is what McKay said not what Jenn may have said or what else McKay might have said..and I don't blame Jenn for not taking it serious..he was sick at the time, perhaps she is waiting for him to say something now that he is better..he asked her out to dinner...which I didn't see her saying yes to..so whether or not he remembers these things if his feelings where there before then McKay needs to man up and go ask her out :)

But you can't deny that the entire "fruitcup" scene was flirtatious. You don't act flirty with a man who's toying with the idea of dating you unless you're into the idea as well. If you're not into it, then it's just uncomfortable and embarrassing

As for why she was watching the video, it was clearly for that segment. If it hadn't been for that segment then we would have been shown something else by the writers instead of wasting time on that scene. The writers only have limited time to show us what it is pertinent to the story and they won't waste that time showing pointless things.

Plus, that would have been the second time she watched that particular day's recording (Day 6). The first time Jeannie cut in and the second time she made it to the end. It's not too far-fetched to imagine that she watched it more times too.

It's also not too far-fetched that she rather liked what she was hearing. It's like saving a voicemail from your crush just to replay it over and over again. You don't do that for people you don't like.

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 06:21 PM
...hm....dark...or milk chocolate?

There are dark chocolate M&Ms? How did I not know this?

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 06:22 PM
What have been OCC for McKay and Ronon so far?
Ronon making it an immature competition, smirking at Rodney.


As far the love confession..we don't know what else is on that tape and why Jenn was watching it over and over..
Yes, the bad debating staple of "Let's assume there's something for which we have no basis is true because it fits our argument".

Just because you don't like the fact that Jennifer was watching Rodney confess his love to him doesn't mean you can refute it as evidence she is at least aware of his feelings for him and quite possibly reciprocates or wishes to pursue a possible relationship (shown by the fact that she has yet to turn him down) by assuming that there must, naturally, be something else of interest on the tape.


yea I didn't like that either..but all we know is what McKay said not what Jenn may have said or what else McKay might have said..
And we're going to debate the issues at hand with that knowledge, not random guesswork. Well, I think Rodney meant to say that to John. We just didn't see the part where he said "I'm been meaning to tell you, John this". Jennifer, who likes Rodney, saw it, thought "Oh, Rodney." and is now plotting ways to bring the two together.

Obviously, this is possible, probable and relevant to the debate as there's no proof it didn't happen.


and I don't blame Jenn for not taking it serious..he was sick at the time, perhaps she is waiting for him to say something now that he is better..
He specifically said "for a very long time". It's not something he just randomly thought up on the spot. He was also having a moment of clarity, not a moment of muddled slurred speech.


Another note about the poorly conceived triangle. Is this just because TPTB honestly can't write romantic relationships believably or are they actually making it this weird on purpose?
I don't know. It's not there yet, but if gets worse, I'm prepared to entertain the notion that they're doing it on purpose.

Shpinxinator
September 28th, 2008, 06:22 PM
There are dark chocolate M&Ms? How did I not know this?


You didn't know?!?! goodness

GateofDOOM
September 28th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Alright, what some people don't seem to understand is, the writers are the ones writing the characters, and they can do it how they want, it's not out of character, as much as you want to think it is. I was going to say something about something else, but I think I'll keep that to myself. Don't want to get modded.


Oh boy. I know that a fair few people have responded to this in this thread but this is just...

Okay, the writers establish a character, show us their personality and quirks and what have you. We're given boundaries, things to expect that a character would or would not do. The better established these things are the more three-dimensional or more life-like a character is. The best kind of character is one that you can imagine could actually be a real person.

When the writers go beyond these traits, when they do something that contradicts the established parameters of a character then the character suffers. The character becomes less real because they are now a bundle of contradicting traits, shifting personality and outlook from situation to situation. Real (sane) people don't do that.

So, yes, the writers can write the characters however the they want. But when what they write contradicts a characters established base then they have contradicted canon and the characters do suffer and the story may actually suffer as well (OOC writing certainly pulls me out of a story). Just because the writers have decreed it so doesn't make it right. I certainly don't want to watch a show where I have to constantly re-evaluate a character and who they fundamentally are every time the writers decide not to check their own story for what went on before in order to not contradict it.

OOC writing is the same thing as a plot hole, writing that produces irreconcilable contradictions is bad writing and shouldn't be ignored just because the writer wrote it that way. If writers contradict themselves it does not make it right.


It's not that I see it in a negative way. I just don't see these actions as ones that the characters would engage in.

I don't know. Maybe it's my hatred of men generally fighting over women that has me despising the development of this triangle, but I can't help but think that this could have been written better.


Further proving my point that TPTB have apparently decided that she lacks any semblance of a compassionate bone in her body.


Ugh! Men fighting over women! And TPTB want us to believe that they don't have trouble writing women? That there aren't gender imbalance issues because they can throw an all female team at us one week?

The only impression I'm getting here is that both McKay and Ronon are only concerned with Keller as an object, a goal. They are treating her like a passive object that they then fight over, with no concern about what she may actually want.
Meanwhile Keller is acting like a passive object. Bouncing around, oblivious to the turmoil around her until a victor emerges to claim her!


Even if Keller, ultimately, makes a choice there's still the matter of the intermediate period wherein she allows the men to fight for her affections without putting in any input or asserting herself in any way. She allows the conflict to go on, knowing (she has to know! Unless she is the most unintuitive dullard to walk the planet, McKay declared his freaking love for her and Ronon is following her around like a lost puppy/bodyguard thing.) that she is the only one capable of putting a stop to it, since the men can't seem pull their heads out of their...hormone levels.

Honestly the only way to salvage Keller from this mess for me would be to have her blow them both off for being such condescending jerks, she needs to show them both that she is actually capable of making a choice and doesn't need them to babysit her. I'm afraid I'm not sure that Ronon and Rodney can do to ever recover from this mess. They need to realize that fighting over her affections doesn't make a darned bit of difference! She's gonna like who she's gonna like and no amount of posturing and jockeying for position is gonna change that (or, at least, that's the way it should be if Keller is in fact the strong independent woman she is supposed to be). Treating a women like she is a person, with a brain, capable of making choices is a good way to go. Not this fighting over an object crap.

Rodney is the only reason I still occasionally tune into this show, if he continues to be written like this then I'm not going to be able to turn in at all anymore.

fumblesmcstupid
September 28th, 2008, 08:35 PM
GateofDoom,:jack_new_anime07:

Mitchell82
September 28th, 2008, 08:36 PM
There. I've said it. Are you happy now? All of you that have worried and wailed against the very idea of a love triangle on SGA.

I protested against your concerns and stood by TPTB in the ultimately vain hope that we'd get something interesting and worthwhile out of their attempt to write a romantic relationship (or two) into the show. Alas, it was not to be.

First Contact is the first episode that really plays up on the notion that Ronon and Rodney are interested in and "competing" for the same woman, Jennifer. And what do we have to show for it?

Desperate Rodney, staring after the two of them forlornly as Jennifer and Ronon run off to the Deadalus together.

A somewhat jerk-ish Ronon as he smirks back at Rodney as he leaves with Jennifer.

And an either oblivious or uncaring Jennifer who knows how Rodney feels yet seems to be encouraging Ronon.

Which wouldn't matter if she reciprocated Ronon's feelings, but we don't know what she's about because TPTB seem to have forgotten all about the third side of this triangle. Making this triangle more similar to a right-angle with no purpose other than what? To demonstrate how silly men get when they're "in love"?

So what's going on here? Are TPTB really screwing this up or is that just happening in my crazy mind?
In the end it's all a matter of personal opinion. Personally I disagree.

dasNdanger
September 28th, 2008, 09:15 PM
*snip*...And an either oblivious or uncaring Jennifer who knows how Rodney feels yet seems to be encouraging Ronon... *snip*

And now, she's encouraging Todd. She really dolled herself up for their little visit, didn't she? And she's wearing his favorite, too...leather! And did I catch a little extra blush on her cheeks, and the empathy in her eyes as Todd confessed his fears to her? It even got Todd a little flustered! Poor fella...had to go back pretending to look at his computer screens just to shake it off.

That Keller. She's SUCH a tease. ;)


das

Pandora's_Box
September 28th, 2008, 09:51 PM
I wish I could green you for that post, but GW won't let me.



Even if Keller, ultimately, makes a choice there's still the matter of the intermediate period wherein she allows the men to fight for her affections without putting in any input or asserting herself in any way. She allows the conflict to go on, knowing (she has to know! Unless she is the most unintuitive dullard to walk the planet, McKay declared his freaking love for her and Ronon is following her around like a lost puppy/bodyguard thing.) that she is the only one capable of putting a stop to it, since the men can't seem pull their heads out of their...hormone levels.

Honestly the only way to salvage Keller from this mess for me would be to have her blow them both off for being such condescending jerks, she needs to show them both that she is actually capable of making a choice and doesn't need them to babysit her. I'm afraid I'm not sure that Ronon and Rodney can do to ever recover from this mess. They need to realize that fighting over her affections doesn't make a darned bit of difference! She's gonna like who she's gonna like and no amount of posturing and jockeying for position is gonna change that (or, at least, that's the way it should be if Keller is in fact the strong independent woman she is supposed to be). Treating a women like she is a person, with a brain, capable of making choices is a good way to go. Not this fighting over an object crap.


The McKeller supporter in me cringes at the thought of never seeing that ship reach fruition, but the adamant Keller (and thereby supporter of woman in general) supporter in me wants her to stand up for herself and put an end to this ridiculous macho posturing and ..... you-know-what waving constant.

She is not a prize to be won, PTB and I'm rather appalled at the fact that they have written her as such a passive player in this triangle.

This sort of ridiculous mano-a-mano type of "romantic" plot-line went out of style and public favour a long time ago yet it seems like TPTB over at SGA never got the memo.

I'm not interested in seeing a woman oblivious to everything around her, completely naive and at the mercy of the decisions made by her male suitors. I'd like a mature, well-developed romantic situation if we're to have one at all. And that means one in which Jennifer is actually playing a part in this whole thing, not standing by batting her eyelashes while the men decide who carries her bags in to combat. Let her grab them herself and roll her eyes at their testosterone-induced behaviour.

I half-wanted her to walk in on them while they made their "let the best man win" handshake and scoff and laugh at the sheer gall of assuming that they could make her do anything she didn't want to do. What if she wasn't interested in either of them? Did that ever occur to the two men with "intentions"?

Am I over-reacting? Maybe, but I had hoped this triangle wasn't going to be more of the same stereotypical romantic scenarios we get all the time. Bah!

SeNedra
September 29th, 2008, 12:30 AM
Well, I decided to express my opinion to that.

At first I am Roon Jenn shipper but I think I am able to accept what the others think. I agree with some points Pandora and the others wrote here.

I believe that Ronon has some feelings for her (of course). The same for Rodney. And there is the first problem I have. Some of them will be hurt. That's what I don't like and although I prefer Ronon, I would feel sorry for Rodney.

The way Ronon acted in First Contact was overprotective and as much as I like his smirks, it wasn't mature at all (and OOC cause Ronon never was so mischievous). It was like "Hey, I am a winner, you are out." Poor Rodney, that was what I thought.

The another question is Jenn and why she doesn't say anything. Is she not decided? Or she is and we just do not see it? She knows about Rodney's feelings and she doesn't do anything. I would say that she is not interested (just IMHO). On the other hand she cannot be sure about Ronon and that is another reason why I think she prefers him.

I could be totally wrong, maybe I just want to see it that way but I do not like Jennifer being portrayed as a woman who is just messing up with the men interested in her. All I can say is that we will see. I still believe that the writers will give us something better and, although I have no idea how they will do it, some satisfying end (yeah, I am optimist :rolleyes::D)

KindlyKeller
September 29th, 2008, 01:25 AM
Yeah, it's been pretty atrocious.

The worst part is how it comes out of nowhere.

Ronon and Jennifer have flirtatious interaction in "Quarantine," and then ignore each other for a year. Rodney and Jennifer have small, friendly interactions, then flirtatious interactions in "Trio." We see the AU relationship in "The Last Man." Then we get several moments in S5, culminating in heavy (and totally overt) flirtation and caring in "The Shrine," which concludes with a declaration of love.

So, we have ALL of that for Rodney and Jennifer, and... oh, wait, Ronon's supposed to like her too. Hmmm. Well, let's just have him go from completely disinterested to hopping into her pouch like a baby kangaroo for two episodes. That'll work.

As much as I didn't want to see this triangle and abhor the idea of Ronon and Jennifer, I really wish they'd devoted more time and effort to developing the Ronon/Jennifer angle, because it's a total nonsequitir as is.

It's really just an embarrassment to the show.

[Note: The preceding were just my opinions, not facts. The views of those who completely disagree with me are equally valid.]

FallenAngelII
September 29th, 2008, 01:43 AM
At first I am Roon Jenn shipper but I think I am able to accept what the others think. I agree with some points Pandora and the others wrote here.
It's important to keep in mind that this thread has nothing to do with which ship you support but what you think about the love triangle existing at all and how well/badly it's written.

KindlyKeller
September 29th, 2008, 02:23 AM
I STILL haven't seen anything that proves to me that this triangle isn't all in Rodney's head. By that I mean, it's obvious Jennifer and Ronon are spending time together, seeking each other out, and mckay really isn't in the picture in jenn's mind.


This is an enormous stretch and wishful thinking.

Her flirtation with Rodney is undeniable in "The Shrine," and they've had many more interactions than Ronon and Jennifer.

I don't think there's any kind of real emotion between Ronon and Jennifer, but the triangle certainly isn't "in Ronon's head." There's obviously been flirtation between them, but Rodney's and Jennifer's is well-documented also.



But then most of his relationships have been in his head, except for Katie that is, (see SGA, s2- grace under pressure and various other comments to sam over the years)


He had a crush. There's a difference between that and a relationship. And considering one of his two relationships on the show was with Jennifer, this doesn't hold much water.




and besides being simply friendly I haven't seen Jennifer show any overt interest in him.

Well, it would be just as easy to pretend Jennifer has only been "friendly" with Ronon. But that still wouldn't make it true. She's clearly flirted with both of them.

Lahela
September 29th, 2008, 02:34 AM
It appears TPTB have managed to annoy everybody, McKay/Keller shippers, Dex/Keller shippers and non-shippers, with this bizarre version of romance. What a sad way to "develop" the characters leading up to the end of the season :(

JadedWraith
September 29th, 2008, 02:49 AM
It appears TPTB have managed to annoy everybody, McKay/Keller shippers, Dex/Keller shippers and non-shippers, with this bizarre version of romance. What a sad way to "develop" the characters leading up to the end of the season :(

I do not think it is aimed to show some character development, it's just there to provide some sort comic relief. A lighthearted fun. That is all. Relations ships in Stargate are more often hinted than explored. And I fine with that.

I must add, to the sake of the argument that Ronon takes Rodney more seriously as a rival, than it might look. People tend to respect others for qualities they lack, even if they don't admit it.

Pandora's_Box
September 29th, 2008, 05:34 AM
In the end it's all a matter of personal opinion. Personally I disagree.

Ok. So in your opinion then, how is it well written?

Commander Zelix
September 29th, 2008, 11:51 AM
I think the writers make this triangle from the same mold of as romantic comedy movies. It was obvious right from the start (when Ronon and McKay talked to each other about it).

dasNdanger
September 29th, 2008, 12:06 PM
I think the writers make this triangle from the same mold of as romantic comedy movies. It was obvious right from the start (when Ronon and McKay talked to each other about it).

Exactly. It actually reminds me of an old Hope & Crosby Road movie...

Ronon and Rodney, in Road to M6H-987...

;)

das

Lythisrose
September 29th, 2008, 12:35 PM
"I Throw Up My Hands in Defeat: The Triangle IS Poorly Written"

Nothing against any of the characters individually, but...

Lately, I just throw up.......:S

Reiko
September 29th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Except the writers can change the canon if they like. It's their creation, not ours.

So, by your definition, there is no such thing as "out of character" -- anything the writers do, no matter how far off point is, will always be "in character" because they are the PTB. So there is no established canon, just whatever the individual writer feels like writing at the moment and could change in the next?

It's blatant retconning, and it's shoddy writing at its best. With SGA, it seems to be done every episode, and though Stargate has never been too good on episode-to-episode continuity, this is an absolute mess.


But if they're constantly doing that then what's the point? There will never be any tension in any sort of situation because the writers can just change any character to suit the environment at will..

Exactly. If they want Keller to be helpless and need to be protected by Ronon and it fit's, they'll mold the character that way. Next episode, if they want to show how she can defend for herself, she'll become Kung Ku Keller. And the next episode, she'll be reverting back to her old self. If they want to make an episode about Sheppard and the 'hot' all-female team, they'll sculpt him so he's more fun to play with in that situation. If they need to have plot, they'll have all the characters act stupid.

In short, they're always changing the characters to fit whatever the given plot may be. They're not heeding, or even listening to the rule of change the plot to fit the characters, not changing the characters to fit the plots. It really isn't that hard -- and if it is, like this love triangle may be, I'd toss it out the window.

And, as all things go, even if we do get decent "character development" -- it's highly probable it won't be carried over into next week's ep.

Rac80
September 29th, 2008, 03:45 PM
What have been OCC for McKay and Ronon so far?

As far the love confession..we don't know what else is on that tape and why Jenn was watching it over and over..yea I didn't like that either..but all we know is what McKay said not what Jenn may have said or what else McKay might have said..and I don't blame Jenn for not taking it serious..he was sick at the time, perhaps she is waiting for him to say something now that he is better..he asked her out to dinner...which I didn't see her saying yes to..so whether or not he remembers these things if his feelings where there before then McKay needs to man up and go ask her out :)

ah but mckay isn't a man...he is whiner! :P:P and we only saw her watch the "confession" ONCE, NOT "over and over"!

Exactly. It actually reminds me of an old Hope & Crosby Road movie...

Ronon and Rodney, in Road to M6H-987...

;)

das
Ok I can see Jenn as dorothy lamour but mckay MUST be hope --he's bald and a joke!http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/rac80/smilies/keller7.gif mental green for you! ;)

Falcon Horus
September 29th, 2008, 04:10 PM
*giggles* This is entertaining... Far better probably then the episode it's about, which I haven't seen and won't know when I'll watch it.

But anyway... First I would like to get something of my mind...

I TOLD YOU SO!!!

Okay, now that's done...


Is this just because TPTB honestly can't write romantic relationships believably or are they actually making it this weird on purpose?

Like FAII I wouldn't put it past them to do it on purpose, BUT SG PTB have never been able to write anything remotely romantically shippy... even if their life depended on it, they would fail miserably and death would welcome them with open arms.

However, personally I think such matters are best left alone and left to the rose-colored glasses with which some viewers like to watch. You don't need much to get your audience shipping characters.

lissad27
September 29th, 2008, 05:14 PM
However, personally I think such matters are best left alone and left to the rose-colored glasses with which some viewers like to watch. You don't need much to get your audience shipping characters.

Exactly.

One of the drawbacks of a love angle (of any number: 2, 3 or 12) is the writers end up polarizing their audience (even more so than already, that is) and pandering to the in-question relationship's particular camp. In this case: they're pandering to the McKeller's and the Ronon/Keller people. What is this? A two-for-one special?

I for one would rather see well-written...no, CONSISTENTLY well-written episodes for the characters and the plots, than the drivel of a love (Bermuda) triangle. As it is, all we're getting (for these three characters in this particular subplot) is junior high school drama.

lissad27
September 29th, 2008, 05:31 PM
we only saw her watch the "confession" ONCE, NOT "over and over"!

Technically, she watched the tape twice...we/she only saw confession once.

Something to think about though: we know she's already heard the confession - Keller knew it was on the tape. She was in the room when McKay said it. Irregardless of how many times we see her watching that tape (2X), why watch it at all? Unless it's somehow important to the viewer, Keller in this case, or as a future plot device.

I actually had less trouble with the fruit cup thing, and the hair patting (or whatever) thing...which I didn't actually notice the first time. However, this tape business seriously compromises Keller's integrity as a doctor and a character - albeit, after the fact. Yeah, she stood up for her patient. Yeah, she was trying her hardest to cure him (as stated in the episode). But then this tape thing brings into question: whether she was the BEST doctor for the job. Not because of credentials, but because of professional objectivity.

I don't like Keller (which is for elsewhere), but until this point the writers hadn't made me question her ethics/objectivity as a doctor. And they did this to the character ... why? Because of a love triangle. Hmph.

Square peg, round hole anyone?

kali1
September 29th, 2008, 05:36 PM
:: passes the popcorn :: You want M&Ms too? They're peanut.

Another note about the poorly conceived triangle. Is this just because TPTB honestly can't write romantic relationships believably or are they actually making it this weird on purpose?

Is this a vicarious thrill thing?

Or all of the above? The current PTB have no clue on how to write romance because they don't know the first thing about it. When your main focus is on cleavage, leather and the sexy, kick butt female or female alien, how can you begin to be serious about writing romance in the first place?? IMO, they think romance is about a man having a dream about a date, a couple kissing out of the blue, someone discovering they are pregnant or someone confessing they are in love when there has never been any evidence of affection going on in the first place. The Teyla being pregnant story line still bugs me but I digress.

A true romance, like any good story, has a beginning, middle and end. You give evidence of affection...even if it's ever so slight and then you slowly build upon it. Romance needs to be treated gently, otherwise, all it becomes is lust. Romance is a slow dance - it's not a mosh pit.

I swear, I think the SGA writers get together and have a few before they write their story. It certainly seems that way especially with s 4 - 5. But...that's my opinion.

SoulReaver
September 29th, 2008, 05:36 PM
I Throw Up My Hands in Defeat: The Triangle IS Poorly Writtenhttp://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl56573.swf&video_id=noHlrgPKX5U&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i3.ytimg.com/vi/noHlrgPKX5U/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskKNVWkKpg8CpbZqQqiRJtaD&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&autoplay=1 http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/spamafote.gif

FallenAngelII
September 29th, 2008, 05:59 PM
Stuff.
It was obviously the writers' way to reveal to the audience that Rodney is in love with Jennifer and that Jennifer at least finds that endearing. Also, to indicate that she's rewatching it just for that part.

Pandora's_Box
September 29th, 2008, 06:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl56573.swf&video_id=noHlrgPKX5U&rel=1&eurl=&iurl=http%3A//i3.ytimg.com/vi/noHlrgPKX5U/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskKNVWkKpg8CpbZqQqiRJtaD&use_get_video_info=1&load_modules=1&autoplay=1 http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/spamafote.gif

Can that be my theme song? I'll green you just for that awesomeness!

Rac80
September 29th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Technically, she watched the tape twice...we/she only saw confession once.

Something to think about though: we know she's already heard the confession - Keller knew it was on the tape. She was in the room when McKay said it. Irregardless of how many times we see her watching that tape (2X), why watch it at all? Unless it's somehow important to the viewer, Keller in this case, or as a future plot device.

I actually had less trouble with the fruit cup thing, and the hair patting (or whatever) thing...which I didn't actually notice the first time. However, this tape business seriously compromises Keller's integrity as a doctor and a character - albeit, after the fact. Yeah, she stood up for her patient. Yeah, she was trying her hardest to cure him (as stated in the episode). But then this tape thing brings into question: whether she was the BEST doctor for the job. Not because of credentials, but because of professional objectivity.

I don't like Keller (which is for elsewhere), but until this point the writers hadn't made me question her ethics/objectivity as a doctor. And they did this to the character ... why? Because of a love triangle. Hmph.

Square peg, round hole anyone?

we only saw her watch two different parts of the tape one time each. She shut it off the first time we saw her, she hadn't reached the so-called confession yet. and did she see him make that part? we know she is taping part of it, but in that segment there is no indication she is there.
Sorry just mho.

Ncc-72452
September 29th, 2008, 07:11 PM
I'm glad to see more people coming on board and voicing their trepidation about the love triangle. I groaned out load when I read about it online.

Not only did it involve Keller, but for pairing #1, which we'll call McKay and Keller, you're pairing Keller, roughly in her late twenties with McKay, roughly in his mid-forties. Now, I understand that some people don't have a problem with large age gaps between couples. True love and all that... But almost 20 years?

For pairing #2, which we'll call Dex and Keller, you're pairing one individual dedicated to tearing people apart with an individual dedicated to putting people back together. Now, I understand that some people don't have a problem with opposites attracting. True love and all that... But I've found that large scale differences lead to large scale arguments.

In all seriousness, I have just been ignoring the whole triangle thing. And, in the last episode, it wasn't even my biggest compliant.

At the end, when they "contain" the explosion in a forcefield. That is a horrible affront to physics. An explosion is a rapid release of energy. While the energy itself can be captured, theoretically, the action of it being released cannot be, and by contained, I mean stored. In context of the episode, they were bleeding off the "explosion" until they couldn't contain it anymore. Wait, I know some of you are saying that a star is an example of a contained explosion. Actually, a star is a series of continuous fusion explosions hampered by the gravitation of its mass. It is continually exploding and collapsing in the same instant. The explosions are not stored. In FC, the initial explosion would have been contained, but it would not keep exploding. The energy would have found some outlet, whether in heat, sound, vibration, light, radiation, or the conversion of matter (air, stargate, and floor) into very hot plasma. The point is, once the initial blast was contained, they would have been out of the woods. All they would have had to do is contain the plasma until it cooled. If the shield could contain the initial massive explosion, it would have no problem containing the remnants. As the remnant plasma cloud cooled, the shield's job would become easier and easier. I just scowled when Zelenka said, "Every second that it is contained within the shield, the explosion gets weaker." The explosion, confined to such a small area, would have been instantaneous. The explosion was gone before he said that. The danger would be in containing the super hot plasma cloud. And if Atlantis's shield could deflect a planet wide coronal mass ejection, rest assured, it could contain a small volume of even super hot plasma until it cooled, even on one ZPM. And even in the unlikely event that it couldn't, they should simply have expanded the volume of the shield and let it bleed off more energy by heating and converting more air into plasma, and, by spreading the heated material over a larger volume, it would cool faster.

Reiko
September 29th, 2008, 07:19 PM
*claps for kali*



At the end, when they "contain" the explosion in a forcefield. That is a horrible affront to physics.

Have you met Pajus yet? You two will love each other. :P

dasNdanger
September 29th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Ok I can see Jenn as dorothy lamour but mckay MUST be hope --he's bald and a joke!http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb194/rac80/smilies/keller7.gif mental green for you! ;)

Oh, Rodney (Well, DH) looks exactly like Bob Hope! First time I saw him, all I could think of was Hope. Ronon's 'cool' and smooth, like Crosby. And Keller, in a sarong...THAT should get the 18-year old boys a'watchin'! ;)

(Thanks for the green, mental and otherwise - here and elsewhere!)

das

fumblesmcstupid
September 29th, 2008, 09:26 PM
Dorthy LaMour???:jonas16:

KindlyKeller
September 29th, 2008, 09:45 PM
we only saw her watch two different parts of the tape one time each.


I'm not quite sure what you mean. The tape starts at the same point both times.



and did she see him make that part? we know she is taping part of it, but in that segment there is no indication she is there.


She did and there is.

"McKAY: Jennifer, there's something I wanted to, um ... while I remember, while I still can; there's something I wanted to say before, um ...

KELLER: Go ahead."

Pandora's_Box
September 29th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Pssst, KK.

It's called denial.

KindlyKeller
September 29th, 2008, 09:48 PM
with McKay, roughly in his mid-forties.

I'm pretty sure 40 doesn't qualify as your mid-forties.

magie
September 30th, 2008, 01:03 AM
For pairing #2, which we'll call Dex and Keller, you're pairing one individual dedicated to tearing people apart with an individual dedicated to putting people back together. Now, I understand that some people don't have a problem with opposites attracting. True love and all that... But I've found that large scale differences lead to large scale arguments.




Not only that, but you've got Keller, established as a brain, a genius, with Ronon, the male bimbo of SGA, Mr "If I grunt five words in a row, that's an exploit".

Ouah, imagine the conversations between those two!

Hmm, come to think of it, I would rather not.

At least, MacKay and Keller would have things in common and could have interesting discussions (note that I'm not a Keller/Mackay shipper, I'm a "Todd should eat Keller" fan).

Rac80
September 30th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Not only that, but you've got Keller, established as a brain, a genius, with Ronon, the male bimbo of SGA, Mr "If I grunt five words in a row, that's an exploit".

Ouah, imagine the conversations between those two!

Hmm, come to think of it, I would rather not.

At least, MacKay and Keller would have things in common and could have interesting discussions (note that I'm not a Keller/Mackay shipper, I'm a "Todd should eat Keller" fan).

I honestly don't think they TALK much do you? ;)

Pandora's_Box
September 30th, 2008, 05:39 AM
I honestly don't think they TALK much do you? ;)

And that's a meaningful realtionship?

lissad27
September 30th, 2008, 06:25 AM
we only saw her watch two different parts of the tape one time each. She shut it off the first time we saw her, she hadn't reached the so-called confession yet. and did she see him make that part? we know she is taping part of it, but in that segment there is no indication she is there.
Sorry just mho.

The interesting thing is: my point isn't how many times she watched the tape or how many times she heard the confession. The point is, the writers scuttled her character's ethics for a LOVE TRIANGLE. I think she could have come off, in that episode, a lot stronger if they'd left those scenes out. They added nothing to the plot. We'd been better off seeing (more of) his interaction with his sister or Teyla or, I don't know, Wolsey.

It wasn't until that scene that I really had a problem with the character. She was, from my point of view, poorly and inconsistently written, but tolerable - or at least ignorable. But that? If they wanted to have the love thing, they could have done it better than throwing out the AMA guidelines.

PS - I thought she was done well in Tracker. It's the way the character should have been written from the start. (To be honest, I was stunned.)

I also think the love business should have been left on the editing room floor. It put both men in a bad light. And subsequently Keller.

I, as a general rule, don't like romance in my sci-fi television. And this love thing with SGA is why. All three characters have been reduced to caricatures of their S2-selves (see 13-year-olds) and Keller is made to look either like an ignorant ninny with all the backbone of an amoeba or a cruel manipulative ... cow. Its coming across as bad jr. high school drama, when, if done right, it could be an adult relationship.

Hears a shocker: I actually think The Last Man AU scene was plausible as a relationship for Keller and McKay. It was realistic and mature. And they didn't have to do it over several episodes. I felt bad that they had this good thing going and she died. Now, maybe they're building to that (not necessarily the dying bit) ... with one of the men, but do we have to see the male posturing and wide-eyed female ignorance/cruelty first? It does no favors for any of the characters. If I were her, I'd ditch the pair of them

Who knows...maybe she's going to have a talk with them. You know, the 'For-the-love-of-pete! Grown-up!' sort of thing. I would, after a certain point; or at least throw something at them. But, again, why have to do that at all? It forces the characters into a farcical plot, that could easily be avoided.

You shouldn't have to compromise the integrity of characters for a plot, or subplot. If the characters and plot are handled well, it should be like putting on old shoes...they just slip into the relationship/new character aspect with ease and plausibility.

ykickamoocow
September 30th, 2008, 06:33 AM
I, as a general rule, don't like romance in my sci-fi television.

Star Trek has generally done romance reasonably well. Off the top of my head they had

Torres/Paris
Dax/Worf
Ezri Dax/Bashir
Sisko/Yates
Riker/Troi (though that one was abit iffy).

Still Star Trek does romance and for the most part they work reasonably well.

Stormtrooper
September 30th, 2008, 08:01 AM
It's not a matter of poor writing, in this case. It's poor judgment by TPTB. Triangles are inherently made of fail, especially one with (princess) Keller, (caveman) Ronon and (sugar daddy) McKay. So wrong.

Pegasus_SGA
September 30th, 2008, 08:14 AM
There. I've said it. Are you happy now? All of you that have worried and wailed against the very idea of a love triangle on SGA.

I protested against your concerns and stood by TPTB in the ultimately vain hope that we'd get something interesting and worthwhile out of their attempt to write a romantic relationship (or two) into the show. Alas, it was not to be.

First Contact is the first episode that really plays up on the notion that Ronon and Rodney are interested in and "competing" for the same woman, Jennifer. And what do we have to show for it?

Desperate Rodney, staring after the two of them forlornly as Jennifer and Ronon run off to the Deadalus together.

A somewhat jerk-ish Ronon as he smirks back at Rodney as he leaves with Jennifer.

And an either oblivious or uncaring Jennifer who knows how Rodney feels yet seems to be encouraging Ronon.

Which wouldn't matter if she reciprocated Ronon's feelings, but we don't know what she's about because TPTB seem to have forgotten all about the third side of this triangle. Making this triangle more similar to a right-angle with no purpose other than what? To demonstrate how silly men get when they're "in love"?

So what's going on here? Are TPTB really screwing this up or is that just happening in my crazy mind?

Ah hon. I don't like to say I told you so.. well I do. :lol: But http://bestsmileys.com/comfort/2.gif

Can't we just say the writers are men and leave it at that? :P

Seriously though, I don't know if Ronon is deliberately seeing how far he can push Rodney into saying something to Keller, or he's just being mean. And I don't think Ronon is mean. I think possibly in his own way, he's forcing Rodney to do something that he wouldn't normally do. To be honest, I can't stand it, I find it immature, and to be frank nauseating to watch. I skip through parts of the shrine because of it, and I balked at some of the scenes at FC. It just puts me off to be honest.

I can't stand love triangles, and find the whole thing something along the lines of caveman behaviour. And it's really not appealing, and for me a good friend wouldn't deliberately flirt wth a girl, when they know they're friend is interested in them. Seriously bad form, but i've yet to see a 'romance' blossoming relationship, that has been written decently by the boys.

I don't know maybe they think that 'fighting' for the girl is a crowd pleaser? *shudders at the thought*

Pandora - on a side note you might want to add 'spoilers' to the title.

Pandora's_Box
September 30th, 2008, 08:26 AM
It's not a matter of poor writing, in this case. It's poor judgment by TPTB. Triangles are inherently made of fail, especially one with (princess) Keller, (caveman) Ronon and (sugar daddy) McKay. So wrong.

It seems, then, that you and I are coming at this from different angles then. I saw the characters as well-written and enjoyable. Now I see them as being molded to fit into this bizarre triangle and they are no longer as well-written as they once were.

It's not the presence of the triangle that's the problem, but how the characters are being portrayed to enable the existence of said triangle.


Ah hon. I don't like to say I told you so.. well I do. :lol: But http://bestsmileys.com/comfort/2.gif

:: pouts :: Comfort is never not appreciated.



Can't we just say the writers are men and leave it at that? :P

Sigh....But they're writers! And there are plenty of male writers out there capable of writing believable romantic relationships, so what's going on here? Out of all the people writing for this show, can none of them manage it?



Pandora - on a side note you might want to add 'spoilers' to the title.

It's in the Season 5 thread so I think I'm okay. It's not a thread for future episodes, just the ones up to and including First Contact.

Pegasus_SGA
September 30th, 2008, 08:40 AM
It seems, then, that you and I are coming at this from different angles then. I saw the characters as well-written and enjoyable. Now I see them as being molded to fit into this bizarre triangle and they are no longer as well-written as they once were.

It's not the presence of the triangle that's the problem, but how the characters are being portrayed to enable the existence of said triangle.

In the words of Teal'c :indeed: i've never known Ronon to be hurtful to McKay.. yes he's gruff etc, but his compassion in the Shrine seemed to negate that playful bantering and he sees him as a friend. I think it's mean spirited to be honest, so I find it hard that Ronon would behave like that. Which is why i'm thinking he's doing it deliberately so Rodney actually makes an effort, tells Keller and stands up to him. *shrugs* I'll never like it though.




:: pouts :: Comfort is never not appreciated.

Oh hon :(




Sigh....But they're writers! And there are plenty of male writers out there capable of writing believable romantic relationships, so what's going on here? Out of all the people writing for this show, can none of them manage it?

I don't know hon. Maybe they see it as a cavemen fantasy or think that women like having men fighting for them? I don't know to be honest. maybe they think it develops the character in some way... I have no idea why they decided on it, but it just makes me want to turn off my chanel to be honest.




It's in the Season 5 thread so I think I'm okay. It's not a thread for future episodes, just the ones up to and including First Contact.

You still have to have spoilers in the thread name though hon, Surprisingly you'd think it would be ok wouldn't you, and that anyone knowing coming into a s5 thread would have spoilers? No no no, my friend, it's got to be clearly labeled in the title. The mods can add it, just report your initial post and ask them to add 'spoilers' then you won't get into trouble. :)

Repli!kat
September 30th, 2008, 08:42 AM
I'm pretty sure 40 doesn't qualify as your mid-forties.

No it doesn't. But (to me) Rodney comes across as a much older character than Keller. And that bothers me.
Look at this clip that Prion found from an old show with DH as a doctor:

http://wraithfodder.livejournal.com/247337.html

Now this is the time of his life when they could have realistically and cutely (if that is a word) paired the two of them.

The writers of SGA don't seem to have an age-filter in their brains, thus the casting of a 25 year old to play CMO. So, I guess, good for them, they hold no prejudices when it comes to age. But it bothers me at a gut level.

The triangle aspect is just another problem I have, it makes Rodney look pathetic, and he should not be presented in this way, I love his character too much to see him demeaned. And it does Keller and Ronon no favors either.

FallenAngelII
September 30th, 2008, 10:01 AM
Not only that, but you've got Keller, established as a brain, a genius, with Ronon, the male bimbo of SGA, Mr "If I grunt five words in a row, that's an exploit".
Technically, Ronon is a macho posturing caveman, not a male bimbo.


At least, MacKay and Keller would have things in common and could have interesting discussions (note that I'm not a Keller/Mackay shipper, I'm a "Todd should eat Keller" fan).
As long as it gets rid of the love triangle.

Ncc-72452
September 30th, 2008, 06:29 PM
I'm pretty sure 40 doesn't qualify as your mid-forties.

Yes, you are correct. He is 40, but she is in her mid-twenties. In fact, he is exactly 14 years, 1 month, and 15 days older than her. So, I think that my original point of a rather large age gap still stands. :)

KindlyKeller
September 30th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Yes, you are correct. He is 40, but she is in her mid-twenties. In fact, he is exactly 14 years, 1 month, and 15 days older than her. So, I think that my original point of a rather large age gap still stands. :)

Fair enough. Though there's a big difference between 14 and 20, which is what you said it was originally.

For me personally, an age gap never even occurred to me until I saw it being talked about at length on GW.

Pandora's_Box
September 30th, 2008, 09:41 PM
Fair enough. Though there's a big difference between 14 and 20, which is what you said it was originally.

For me personally, an age gap never even occurred to me until I saw it being talked about at length on GW.

Same goes.

I always figured they were similar enough with their positions in life that the age thing wasn't a big deal.

If she were 16 and he 30, then I'd have a problem. But we're talking here about two people who have completed their educations, maintain steady jobs and have fulfilling careers, and are very similar in levels of intellect and certain interests. I honestly don't see the problem.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 04:18 AM
Why did the thread title change? It's a no-brainer than a thread in the FC-section would have spoilers up to FC. It's in the rules that no spoilers warnings are needed for episode specific sections as long as you're only talking about things in the episodes up to that episode.

Orion Antreas
October 1st, 2008, 04:27 AM
...I have to ask...whats it matter? So what if theres a love triangle? seriously...do people not realize that moaning about it is way more "High School Drama" than the triangle itself?

I couldn't have said it any better.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 04:30 AM
I couldn't have said it any better.
So if we're not allowed to discuss matters that pertain to the episode in ways other than "I loved everything about the episode, everything is splendid! There is nothing wrong with anything!", why even have a forum?

Why not just have polls every week where you can only choose between different ways of praising the episodes?

We dislike certain things about the show. Deal with it.

Pandora's_Box
October 1st, 2008, 05:19 AM
Why did the thread title change? It's a no-brainer than a thread in the FC-section would have spoilers up to FC. It's in the rules that no spoilers warnings are needed for episode specific sections as long as you're only talking about things in the episodes up to that episode.

Don't look at me. I did nothing and thought the exact same thing.

CazzBlade
October 1st, 2008, 05:30 AM
Don't look at me. I did nothing and thought the exact same thing.

I think it might be because people were mentioning things that could happen in eps that haven't aired yet, so maybe the mods were just reminding people that in this thread we can only discuss what has aired not what we've heard is going to happen in future eps. Maybe...

Lahela
October 1st, 2008, 06:54 AM
I think it might be because people were mentioning things that could happen in eps that haven't aired yet, so maybe the mods were just reminding people that in this thread we can only discuss what has aired not what we've heard is going to happen in future eps. Maybe...

I took the "up to FC" to mean that we are discussing things that happened in past eps as well as FC... while they are relevant to the conversation, they did occur outside this ep so they probably fall under the general spoiler rules.

Pegasus_SGA
October 1st, 2008, 10:02 AM
Why did the thread title change? It's a no-brainer than a thread in the FC-section would have spoilers up to FC. It's in the rules that no spoilers warnings are needed for episode specific sections as long as you're only talking about things in the episodes up to that episode.

Um nope. The rule for spoilers is;



The rule of thumb is this: If your post has spoilers it must include a spoiler warning, unless the thread (and thread title) already started with a warning for that episode.

Pandora added the spoiler to the post title, but has added a caveat of only up to First contact. So by that measure, anything after that episode should be in spoilers, because this relates to a specific episode. But if you're desperate you could always ask the mods.

However...
Starting with Stargate Atlantis Season Four, each episode has its own dedicated folder. Spoilers abound in these folders for that specific episode, and do not require spoiler warnings. Thread titles, however, must be kept relatively spoiler-free, since they appear in New Posts and search results for all members. When posting in an episode-specific folder, you must still include spoiler warnings for any episode that aired (or will air) later than that episode.

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 10:43 AM
However...
Exactly. Threads in the episode specific folders do not require spoiler-tags (but thread titles need to be spoiler-free) for up to that episode. Which is why it's weird that the thread title would state that since it's already in the rules.

Pegasus_SGA
October 1st, 2008, 10:50 AM
Exactly. Threads in the episode specific folders do not require spoiler-tags (but thread titles need to be spoiler-free) for up to that episode. Which is why it's weird that the thread title would state that since it's already in the rules.
if you're just talking about the ep, but eps after or before? In a specific ep thread? If you're talking about that ep alone, it should be fine, but other eps that have aired and future eps, should be spoiler tagged. That's how I read it. Why not ask the mods. Either way does it make much difference? If the title has changed or not?

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 11:12 AM
if you're just talking about the ep, but eps after or before? In a specific ep thread? If you're talking about that ep alone, it should be fine, but other eps that have aired and future eps, should be spoiler tagged. That's how I read it. Why not ask the mods. Either way does it make much difference? If the title has changed or not?
OK, let me repeat:
In a sub-forum for specific episodes, you can write spoilers for episodes up until + that certain episode without spoiler tags.

All spoilers for future episodes, be they unaired or already aired, must be spoiler-tagged. This is all in the rules already.

Thus, it's illogical to tag one single thread "Spoilers up 'til" since it's in the rules and no-brainers. If needed, issue a mass warning to all who break it or step in as a mod and remind people of the rules.

I even made a separate thread on spoilers. Also, this thread wasn't breaking the spoiler-rule on such a wide scale it needed to be renamed. I can count the times it's happened in here without spoiler-tags on a single hand.

Pegasus_SGA
October 1st, 2008, 11:17 AM
OK, let me repeat:
In a sub-forum for specific episodes, you can write spoilers for episodes up until + that certain episode without spoiler tags.

All spoilers for future episodes, be they unaired or already aired, must be spoiler-tagged. This is all in the rules already.

I quoted the rules, I didn't make them up :lol:



Thus, it's illogical to tag one single thread "Spoilers up 'til" since it's in the rules and no-brainers. If needed, issue a mass warning to all who break it or step in as a mod and remind people of the rules.

I even made a separate thread on spoilers. Also, this thread wasn't breaking the spoiler-rule on such a wide scale it needed to be renamed. I can count the times it's happened in here without spoiler-tags on a single hand.

I didn't tag the thread. If you want to ask a mod, ask a mod. :lol: I don't have an issue with the title, but you obviously do. :lol: SO if it bothers you, speak to them.

Anyway if you have issues report it to a mod, but I think you might find this conversation is derailing the thread, and since I know how much this upsets you, it might be worth taking the discussion elsewhere. :)

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 11:26 AM
Anyway if you have issues report it to a mod, but I think you might find this conversation is derailing the thread, and since I know how much this upsets you, it might be worth taking the discussion elsewhere. :)
I noted that the thread title had been altered in an illogical way, you chose to reply with your take on it. The conversation would've ended had you simply told me to ask a mod, but you chose to try to explain it yourself, thus prompting a reply from me.

Pegasus_SGA
October 1st, 2008, 11:38 AM
I noted that the thread title had been altered in an illogical way, you chose to reply with your take on it. The conversation would've ended had you simply told me to ask a mod, but you chose to try to explain it yourself, thus prompting a reply from me.
If by quoting the rules is my interpretation, then fine... whatever FH. :lol: However, If we carry on this topic of conversation, no one will need to go and ask a mod. A mod will descend and whup our asses. ;)

FallenAngelII
October 1st, 2008, 11:41 AM
If by quoting the rules is my interpretation, then fine... whatever FH. :lol: However, If we carry on this topic of conversation, no one will need to go and ask a mod. A mod will descend and whup our asses. ;)
Your weird interpretation or whatever as I'd already stated exactly what you quoted and declared it illogical to change the thread title due to it. You chose to continue the conversation needlessly for whatever reason. And now you are keeping up with defending your illogical reasoning.

I will not take this further (in this thread). Reply to me in a PM if I must. The mods were, IMO, illogical to amend the thread title and your "explanation" to the events is illogical as well.

Skydiver
October 1st, 2008, 12:23 PM
folks
I changed the title of the thread because, even though it's in the first contact folder, it's not necessarily implied that you will be discussion things that have happened all season.

spoilers up to and including first contact do not need to be tagged, any thing after that does.

Now, back to the topic please, which is the love triangle and your take on it, be it for or against

fumblesmcstupid
October 1st, 2008, 03:48 PM
I Loath The Triangle!

I hate that the writers think that this is a neat idea.

It's going to change the way these three characters work and re-act to each other.

It is uncomfortable to watch (IMO) and it is ruining Atlantis for me.:(

Falcon Horus
October 1st, 2008, 04:04 PM
...it is ruining Atlantis for me.:(

It was already ruined before it... how much worse can it get? No, wait - pretend I didn't say that.

fumblesmcstupid
October 1st, 2008, 05:41 PM
Sigh!

Infinatus
October 3rd, 2008, 09:56 AM
It was already ruined before it... how much worse can it get? No, wait - pretend I didn't say that.

SGA Season 6 'Hamster Ball'? :P

Falcon Horus
October 3rd, 2008, 09:59 AM
SGA Season 6 'Hamster Ball'? :P

See - I should have kept my mouth shut! :p

kali1
October 5th, 2008, 03:46 PM
*claps for kali*




http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b84/kali_r1/Smilies/Bow.gif :D

kali1
October 5th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Sigh....But they're writers! And there are plenty of male writers out there capable of writing believable romantic relationships, so what's going on here? Out of all the people writing for this show, can none of them manage it?



Ohhh I agree. There are a lot of male writers out there that do a great job in writing romantic story lines but they aren't working for SGA that's for sure. Thus far, the current writing team has yet to prove that they can write a decent, believable romantic relationship. As far as I concerned, it's not in their blood to do so.

piratekate
October 5th, 2008, 08:03 PM
I'm surprised by the passion the triangle subject has created. I have to admit that I don't take it that seriously. I've watched and loved both Stargate SG1 and now Stargate Atlantis since they were both created and I think the Ronan/Rodney/Jennifer triangle is very cute. There is quite a lot of teasing/kidding between the team members and my take on Ronan's interest is that he is mostly doing it to give Rodney a bad time. I love that the writers haven't made it clear exactly what his intentions are, so it generates a lot of thought and controversy as this thread shows.

As far as I can see neither Rodney or Ronan have openly declared their intentions so I don't see why Jennifer should act in any way differently than she is. Although Rodney declared in a previous episode when he was losing his mind that he loved her, he hasn't ever told her in the primary storyline. Even though she knows that he cares for her, what's she supposed to do, tattoo "I might be taken so don't flirt with me" on her forehead

I think the protector role is consistent with the Ronan character and fits well with the added incentive that he can cause Rodney minor discomfort in the process. And he probably likes hanging out with Jennifer so all in all it's a good time.

I'm enjoying this storyline and hope it continues throughout the rest of the series. Just a slightly different way that Ronan and Rodney can give each other a bad time. I like it when the characters give each other a bad time. Daniel and Rodney were great in FC. Can't wait until the next episode!

Respectfully,

Pirate Kate

Mitchell82
October 6th, 2008, 05:56 AM
So if we're not allowed to discuss matters that pertain to the episode in ways other than "I loved everything about the episode, everything is splendid! There is nothing wrong with anything!", why even have a forum?

Why not just have polls every week where you can only choose between different ways of praising the episodes?

We dislike certain things about the show. Deal with it.
Same goes for you buddy. We all have opinions that are just as valid as yours.