Political Ramblings (Strike Two)

[Champos]

Some of you may remember the Political Ramblings thread we had on Delphi (and a Religious one as well). I figure that since Politics is always changing... we should restart the thread.

Basically, if it's political, it's fair game. We want some good, fierce arguments, but try to keep it from getting (too) personal. That said, let battle commence!

First up, in light of recent events, should Rumsfield resign?

[Champos]

Ah, come on guys! Don't leave me hanging, please? Surely someone must have something to say, even if it's just "Go home"!!!!

[spg_1983]

well as far as Runsfield I have to admit I don't really know the whole story with him, with finals i havnt been able to keep up with the news, i know about the torturing and all but not exactly what he had to do. although if he did know about it and didn't do anything than he should resign, but until i catch up on my news i dont know (Im a bit of a political junkie)


oh yeah
p.s. Go Home! lol

[spg_1983]

ok ive been reading up on the various news stories and I think he should resign, it happend on his watch and he is responsible. most of all id like to see him resign simply because it would hurt bush's re-election campaign.

[Champos]

Yay! Someone does love me!!! Even if they did tell me to go home.

Like yourself, I'm not all that up-to-date on Rumsfield (I've been in HK for the past week), but I have heard about the Red Cross reporting on this way back sometime last year, but that the US government (as with the UK govnmnt), ignored it. He's already issued an apology, accepting full responsibility for the events that took place on his watch. Is that enough though?

Edit: Sorry, took too long replying.

[Champos]

<< most of all id like to see him resign simply because it would hurt bush's re-election campaign. >>

So should I bother asking who you're going to vote for?

Here's a quote from the Telegraph: Asked if he [Rumsfield] would consider resigning, he said: "Needless to say if I thought I could not be effective I would resign in a minute. I would not resign if I thought people were trying to make a political issue of it."

Not allowed to make a political issue out of it? Damn!

[spg_1983]

<<So should I bother asking who you're going to vote for?>>
lol anybody but the shrub!

[Matt G]

The whole torture allegations are pretty interesting. Over here a tabloid published photos supposedly showing British soldiers involved in torture only for the photos to turn out to be fakes(thus proving the low IQ of editor of said tabloid).

The allegations in general sound like they're coming from the other side of a quantum mirror - I know various people both online and in RL who are ex and current military and even the most militaristic of those would almost certainly draw the line before doing what these people are supposed to have done.

However if I'm honest then as someone who has been frankly freaked out by the way that Dubya has managed to pull the world apart - I'll shed few if any tears if this is what brings him down.

[Champos]

<< The allegations in general sound like they're coming from the other side of a quantum mirror - I know various people both online and in RL who are ex and current military and even the most militaristic of those would almost certainly draw the line before doing what these people are supposed to have done. >>

I'll agree that it does seem strange. A lot of the soldiers supposedly involved are apparently normal, generally likeable people. If they have indeed been torturing people, then is it because what they've seen in Iraq has changed them, or is it an innate... thing?

[Major Clanger]

The whole torture allegations are pretty interesting. Over here a tabloid published photos supposedly showing British soldiers involved in torture only for the photos to turn out to be fakes(thus proving the low IQ of editor of said tabloid).

The allegations in general sound like they're coming from the other side of a quantum mirror - I know various people both online and in RL who are ex and current military and even the most militaristic of those would almost certainly draw the line before doing what these people are supposed to have done.

I'm not so sure. I'm 100% convinced that if anything those photos that the half-wit Piers Morgan published are reconstructions. But i'm not so sure that this stuff doesn't go on. Almost certainly the did have to have bags on their heads, and that alone is bad enough for me to want heads to roll.

It's a fine line, isn't it? On the one hand we want information, and they have it. On the other hand, how can we get it without stooping so low. And how to do all this without provoking the vile things that have happened (thinking of the poor guys being beheaded)

As per usual, people are ok as long as the gory details don't emerge. War is a dirty business. It's a definite case of "quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (who will guard the guards themselves?)

[Champos]

I think we need a new thread topic. The mal-treatment of prisoners is something that pretty much evryone agrees with, and I for one am reluctant to play Devil's advocate and try to argue in defence of such torture in case someone thinks those are actually my views.

Another topic then: how about we stay in Iraq and consider whether it was right to go to war.

Or, (let's have several arguments going at once), we could move out it a bit further and consider the Israel/Palestine question.

Or, (going way off bat), we could talk about the current political situation in China.

Or, someone else can think of something decent...

[Champos]

Or not.

[Matt G]

Iraq: The troops shouldn't have gone in but now they realistically have to stay if the Iraqis are going to get through this.

Israel/Palistine: Both sides are morons - would rather not get into more detailed disscussions on this topic - it gives me a headache!

China: Don't know enough about to disscuss.

[Matt G]

HEADS UP TO ALL THOSE IN THE US!

>There is pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills: S 89 and HR 163) which will time the program's initiation so the draft can begin at early as Spring 2005 -- just after the 2004 presidential election. The administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed now, while the public's attention is on the elections, so our action on this is needed immediately.
$28 million has been added to the 2004 Selective Service System (SSS) budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005. Selective Service must report to Bush on March 31, 2005 that the system, which has lain dormant for decades, is ready for activation. Please see website: www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html to view the sss annual performance plan - fiscal year 2004.

The pentagon has quietly begun a public campaign to fill all 10,350 draft board positions and 11,070 appeals board slots nationwide.. Though this is an unpopular election year topic, military experts and influential members of congress are suggesting that if Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan [and a permanent state of war on "terrorism"] proves accurate, the U.S. may have no choice but to draft.

Congress brought twin bills, S. 89 and HR 163 forward this year, http://www.hslda.org/legislation/na...s89/default.asp entitled the Universal National Service Act of 2003, "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons [age 18--26] in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." These active bills currently sit in the committee on armed services.

Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era.

College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year.

Even those voters who currently support US actions abroad may still object to this move, knowing their own children or grandchildren will not have a say about whether to fight. Not that it should make a difference, but this plan, among other things, eliminates higher education as a
shelter and includes women in the draft.

The public has a right to air their opinions about such an important decision.

Please send this on to all the friends, parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, and cousins that you know. Let your children know too -- it's their future, and they can be a powerful voice for change!

Please also contact your representatives to ask them why they aren't telling their constituents about these bills -- and contact newspapers and other media outlets to ask them why they're not covering this important story.

[Matt G]

If I'm being honest it's a slight false alarm in that I've since had some people do a bit of sniffing and it turned out to be a Democrat bill with no one backing it up. Doh! The theory behind the bill being that if Dubya's crew knew that Joe Average knew he was likely to be called up then they would have the option of restraining themselves or getting restrained by Joe Average.

It's a naive theory IMO as I don't honestly think Bush gives that much of a f-k about. Still worth a heads up though.