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View Full Version : Keller's fighting skills compared to McKay's?



ykickamoocow
September 20th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Im not sure if im making mountains out of molehills but did anyone else think it was a little unbelievable that Keller could fight a Wraith like that?

In "Missing" Keller was essentially useless when it came to combat (whether it be hand to hand or with weapons). This would be understandable as she is a doctor and not used to these things. But a year later she is seen holding her own in a fight with a Wraith. Again i wouldnt have a problem with this if it wasnt for McKay.

In "Tracker" Keller is shown fighting better than McKay has ever done and i personally find this odd considering that

- McKay has been on Atlantis for over 5 years
- McKay is on the frontline team which is the team most likely to see combat.

I just think that if the writers could have improved Keller's hand to hand fighting abilities in under a year it would have been nice to see some improvement in McKay's fighting abilities after 5 years. It would have been nice to see a scene or 2 every so often of Teyla training McKay in her stick fighting techniques and it would be nice to see a steady improvement in his abilities.

So in short

- McKay after 5 years has shwon NO improvement in hand to hand combat (or stick to stick) while Keller (who i see as a similar sort of person to McKay in dangerous situations) has managed to pick up enough skick fighting ability to hold her own with a Wraith.

I am happy to see Keller's fighting improve but it would have been nice to see that improvement in McKay aswell.

Does anyone else agree with me on this?

Blencathra
September 20th, 2008, 10:28 AM
I suppose it depends on how many ... errr ... "lessons" she's been getting from Ronon. :D

BTW Congrats on 1000 posts Mooccow. :)

Reiko
September 20th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Keller has now replaced Teyla. Soon she'll be able to replace Ronon, too.

In short, more random sh*t to get us to like her.

jelgate
September 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM
Its not like she actually did the good against the Wraith. As for doing better then McKay Keller is physically fit

EvenstarSRV
September 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM
- McKay after 5 years has shwon NO improvement in hand to hand combat (or stick to stick) while Keller (who i see as a similar sort of person to McKay in dangerous situations) has managed to pick up enough skick fighting ability to hold her own with a Wraith.


To me, McKay doesn't seem like the type who would be interested in sparring, so it doesn't surprise me that his hand-to-hand fighting skills have not improved. I think he has improved with his accuracy with guns, hitting a wraith while hopping on one foot. :)

From what I remember of the Keller vs. Wraith fight, she was just blocking the Wraith's attacks, but not attacking herself. And defense is usually the first thing you learn, at least what I did in fencing class. I don't think Keller would have been able to continue defending herself for long and she wouldn't have been able to win the fight. McKay ended up killing that Wraith. :)

ykickamoocow
September 20th, 2008, 11:07 AM
To me, McKay doesn't seem like the type who would be interested in sparring, so it doesn't surprise me that his hand-to-hand fighting skills have not improved.

Its funny how two people can have completely opposite opinions on the same topic. I believe McKay would realise that his job is extremely dangerous and because McKay is keen on living (as is everybody) i think he would want learn basic hand to hand combat as it may be the difference between life and death. McKay would realise that he is safer if he can better defend himself.

Gaeth
September 20th, 2008, 11:25 AM
It was absolutely ridiculous. They just wanted to show off their new Keller toy. I had a lot of problems with that episode, they could have her just grab a stunner. That would have worked.

How about when she killed that Wraith by stabbing him through the gut? That shouldn't have instantly killed him, even if he was a human. There's a reason why Samurai would eviscerate themselves, it's a slow painful death and proof that the Samurai wasn't a coward for committing suicide in such a grisly manner. How does she kill him so easily then?

And why didn't Rodney pick up a stunner any of those times when there was a dead Wraith? ........

I'm not one of those anti-Keller people, but I didn't enjoy how they trumped up her abilities in this.

bluealien
September 20th, 2008, 11:29 AM
Im not sure if im making mountains out of molehills but did anyone else think it was a little unbelievable that Keller could fight a Wraith like that?

In "Missing" Keller was essentially useless when it came to combat (whether it be hand to hand or with weapons). This would be understandable as she is a doctor and not used to these things. But a year later she is seen holding her own in a fight with a Wraith. Again i wouldnt have a problem with this if it wasnt for McKay.

In "Tracker" Keller is shown fighting better than McKay has ever done and i personally find this odd considering that

- McKay has been on Atlantis for over 5 years
- McKay is on the frontline team which is the team most likely to see combat.

I just think that if the writers could have improved Keller's hand to hand fighting abilities in under a year it would have been nice to see some improvement in McKay's fighting abilities after 5 years. It would have been nice to see a scene or 2 every so often of Teyla training McKay in her stick fighting techniques and it would be nice to see a steady improvement in his abilities.

So in short

- McKay after 5 years has shwon NO improvement in hand to hand combat (or stick to stick) while Keller (who i see as a similar sort of person to McKay in dangerous situations) has managed to pick up enough skick fighting ability to hold her own with a Wraith.

I am happy to see Keller's fighting improve but it would have been nice to see that improvement in McKay aswell.

Does anyone else agree with me on this?

It was totally incredulous. In Rising Teyla was unable to defeat a wraith with her sticks and she has been practicing .. um .. all her life.. but yet Keller is able to defeat a Wraith with a few lessons... but I expected the writers to turn Keller into super woman after the Missing fiasco... they are desparate to show us that she has grown so much since that ep.

I also agree about McMay.... five years on the team and in combat situations and they still show Rodney panicking and no better at hand to hand than he was five years ago... sigh !!

Infinite-Possibilities
September 20th, 2008, 11:44 AM
Yes, I also thought it was rather silly. In fact Keller got a little bit on my nerves in a lot of this episode. I chalked it up to that happening to be the worst Wraith Hunter in history. I'm not a major Keller hater, but I'm beginning to suspect I will have liked her better a s major recurring character.

McKay I do not have any problems with it this episode, he seems a little bit more confident with a firearm than when he began his missions, but he never thought of it as a strength he ought to cultivate.

EvenstarSRV
September 20th, 2008, 12:02 PM
Its funny how two people can have completely opposite opinions on the same topic. I believe McKay would realise that his job is extremely dangerous and because McKay is keen on living (as is everybody) i think he would want learn basic hand to hand combat as it may be the difference between life and death. McKay would realise that he is safer if he can better defend himself.

I agree that McKay realized that he needed to learn to defend himself, which is why I think his ability with guns has improved markedly from season 1, when he accidentally ejected the clip instead of firing a 9mm, to now where he can shoot a Wraith one-handed while hopping on one foot. And from the episodes I've seen he's quite competent with a P90, the other main weapon he uses to defend himself.

It think it's similar to how on SG-1 Daniel Jackson became competent with the gunplay over the years, but never really did the same with hand-to-hand fighting. Neither he nor McKay strike me as the type who would be interested in learning that type of fighting, but both realized that their jobs meant that had to learn to defend themselves if necessary, hence learning how to effectively use guns.

hawkedup
September 20th, 2008, 04:44 PM
I've always thought it was rediculous that Rodney, after 5 years, is still so "comically" bad in fighting situations. It's an old and tired plot device.

It was cool to see Jewel kicking some butt, though.

Gate-builder
September 20th, 2008, 06:51 PM
I thought it was fine, Rodney was hopeless in the first few seasons so it is obvious he is going to get a bit better. In the episode with Ladons coup, he got all excited when he almost stunned someone, now he can hit a wraith while hopping on one foot, a good improvement. Sure he still gets a bit scared and fumbles around a bit when reloading, but who wouldn't when you are faced with a live-sucking space vampire.

We all know Keller was hopeless in Missing, but she could have been getting lessons from Ronan for over a year now, thats a lot of time to improve. And who knows, maybe the wraith she was fighting wasn't that great, they can't all be expert fighters, why would you need to be when basically the whole galaxy is scared of you and won't even put up a fight.

Infinatus
September 20th, 2008, 07:04 PM
Keller being able to fight so well was probably my only complaint about this episode, besides a very minor complaint about Ronon and Rodney forgetting they're not supposed to touch the villagers because they have influenza. ;)

Jelgate has a good point though:


As for doing better then McKay Keller is physically fit

Being physically fit makes all the difference. She should do much better than McKay in a fight, though she still shouldn't do better than Teyla (I was under the impression Keller fared better in this episode than Teyla did in Suspicion).

wkw427
September 20th, 2008, 07:06 PM
It is simple, Keller has more balls then Rodney. Even though hers are on the inside, and Rodney's ball is in his skull...

prion
September 20th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Keller being able to fight so well was probably my only complaint about this episode, besides a very minor complaint about Ronon and Rodney forgetting they're not supposed to touch the villagers because they have influenza. ;)

Being physically fit makes all the difference. She should do much better than McKay in a fight, though she still shouldn't do better than Teyla (I was under the impression Keller fared better in this episode than Teyla did in Suspicion).

Oh well, people do tend to forget stuff all the time. Plus if a person sneezed, you're still at risk, and hey, they ate food, the utensils were touched... Did love the chicken foot or whatever McKay removed from his bowl ;)

Yes, Keller is more fit, it seems, than Rodney, although Rodney is a genius so... his talents lie in his head, not his feet.

Womble
September 20th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Its not like she actually did the good against the Wraith. As for doing better then McKay Keller is physically fit
Of course she's fit. The tiniest biceps in the Pegasus galaxy.:rolleyes:

Jennifer Jewell really shouldn't do martial arts scenes. Her moves with that stick were downright awkward.

EvenstarSRV
September 20th, 2008, 08:10 PM
Being physically fit makes all the difference. She should do much better than McKay in a fight, though she still shouldn't do better than Teyla (I was under the impression Keller fared better in this episode than Teyla did in Suspicion).

It's been a while since I've seen Suspicion, but I remember Teyla having a full-on fight with that Wraith, attacking, defending, the works. I never did like that she didn't defeat the Wraith herself and Sheppard had to save her.

From what I saw in Tracker, Keller was only defending herself against the Wraith, just blocking and parrying, not attacking at all, and her technique was far far poorer than Teyla's. Keller did not defeat the Wraith with a stick, Mckay ends up saving her by shooting it.

Infinatus
September 20th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Oh well, people do tend to forget stuff all the time. Plus if a person sneezed, you're still at risk, and hey, they ate food, the utensils were touched... Did love the chicken foot or whatever McKay removed from his bowl ;)

True. Though maybe McKay would have brought his own utensils, being the hypochondriac that he is. ;)

I didn't get a good look at the duck meat. At first it looked kind of rigid so I assumed it was bone, but then who would put a large bone in McKay's soup? :P


Yes, Keller is more fit, it seems, than Rodney, although Rodney is a genius so... his talents lie in his head, not his feet.

You'd think though that after all the danger McKay has experienced he'd take some martial arts lessons. ;)


It's been a while since I've seen Suspicion, but I remember Teyla having a full-on fight with that Wraith, attacking, defending, the works. I never did like that she didn't defeat the Wraith herself and Sheppard had to save her.

From what I saw in Tracker, Keller was only defending herself against the Wraith, just blocking and parrying, not attacking at all, and her technique was far far poorer than Teyla's. Keller did not defeat the Wraith with a stick, Mckay ends up saving her by shooting it.

My point was that Teyla was knocked to the ground and almost fed upon. Keller stayed on her feet.

Agent_Dark
September 20th, 2008, 08:33 PM
I thought they sent the noob Wraith out after the Runners yeah? Like its mainly some kind of training/sport thing for the inexperienced Wraith.

Also, McKay was taking out those Wraith in like 5 shots from his M9. Unless he's suddenly levelled up his pistol skills and getting bulk headshots, a Wraith would never go down to 5 dinky 9mm rounds... ;o

Infinatus
September 20th, 2008, 08:39 PM
I thought they sent the noob Wraith out after the Runners yeah? Like its mainly some kind of training/sport thing for the inexperienced Wraith.

That's what 'Sateda' would suggest. The first hunter Ronon killed looked fairly youthful compared to other Wraith we've seen. Maybe killing your first runner is some kind of initiation into Wraithhood for male Wraith that is required for acceptance into the adult world.

Becky S.
September 20th, 2008, 09:30 PM
I'm bothered by the fact that two seasons ago (in "Vengence") we saw Ronon teaching Rodney to be a better fighter. Even if Ronon's method had ended up being too hard and Rodney hadn't stuck to the training very long, I would have assumed that either Teyla or John would have continued it.

Keller's defensive fighting was okay, she wasn't smooth and I kind of got the impression the wraith who was attacking her might have been 'playing' with her a bit. I also agree that the wraith was a young warrior in training.

ykickamoocow
September 20th, 2008, 11:23 PM
We briefly got a scene in a season 3 episode of Ronon supposedly training McKay but personally i didnt think Ronon was a overally good teacher as all he was doing was hitting McKay very hard with a skick.

Personally i think it would have been nice to see Teyla teaching McKay how to stick fight as Teyla is a much more patient person and we would have been able to get some more McKay/Teyla scenes (which is something Atlantis has really lacked over 5 seasons).

Opener
September 21st, 2008, 12:19 AM
Your point kind of makes mine: Ronon was only sticking to the basics, and i like to think that if he did the same with Keller(Ronon doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would change things because of a person's sex), she'd pick up a few things. An after watching Rodney in action and Keller in Missing, it seems to me that they'd both focus on what worked for them. With Rodney it was guns(suited to his logic about the universe), and Keller got more personal, as she had to do as a doctor.

Not to say she was any kind of martial arts master, just that she picked up a couple of basic moves, as Rodney picked up what needed to be done in the siutuation.

Yaxez
September 21st, 2008, 11:00 AM
A real wraith would have crushed Keller, she's like 1.50 and weighs 45kg.

A bit unrealistic.

FallenAngelII
September 21st, 2008, 11:04 AM
I say the Wraith she was fighting was just a spoiled rich kid who paid a few humans worth of food to engage in a little Runner Hunting.

Infinite-Possibilities
September 21st, 2008, 11:39 AM
Yes, I agree seriously. That Wraith looked like he was horrible at fighting, especially fora Wraith. He looked briefly like he was swinging wildly. He also looked like he swung with little power, logically an average general wraith should be able to swat her down with roughly considerable ease. This one looked like he could only manage to push her around.

g.o.d
September 21st, 2008, 12:08 PM
he was drunk

Starsaber
September 21st, 2008, 07:17 PM
If hunting Runners is training or learning how they fight, I can understand not sending the best troops down. After all, if they defeat the Runner, they've proven their worth and learned a lot (and if they don't, you still haven't lost your best soldiers). I think the only reason the Super Wraith in Sateda fought Ronon is because Ronon embarrassed his soldiers and he wanted to prove himself superior.

Shan Bruce Lee
September 21st, 2008, 08:41 PM
Its not like she actually did the good against the Wraith. As for doing better then McKay Keller is physically fit

And Keller actually took the time to learn from Ronon. Rodney has always shown a disinterest in learning to fight - at least from what we've seen of him in the sparring room and the way he's always talked down about the military, Ronon etc.

Infinatus
September 21st, 2008, 08:45 PM
I say the Wraith she was fighting was just a spoiled rich kid who paid a few humans worth of food to engage in a little Runner Hunting.

:lol:

Sweetwaterspice
September 21st, 2008, 09:02 PM
Keller kicking Wraith butt *Yeah right* I really had a problem with that scene. There is just no way that was believable in the least! Now Teyla on the other hand is absolutely believable.

I think this scene with Keller was added just to shove the Ronon/Keller "love interest" down our throats! LOL! See fans, she can fight too! Wouldn't she just make a great match for Ronon? *throwing up*

I don't believe her being better fit than Rodney has anything to do with it. Many others better physically fit than jennifer have confronted the Wraith and lost their lives! This was just unbelievable!

I agree with the poster that said they should've given her a stun gun...now that is truly Kellerish

Pandora's_Box
September 22nd, 2008, 08:39 AM
Ok, seriously?! That 15 second ( if that) scene of Keller clumsliy parrying the Wraith's blows is what people are getting worked up about?

Kung Fu Keller? Hardly.

It was supposed to look clumsy and wrong and like a novice was doing it because she is a novice. One that is willing to learn and not be at the mercy of every Wraith coming her way, waiting for her Knight in Shining Armour to come and save her.

She really didn't do much beyond deflect a few blows and weave out of the way before Rodney shot the thing.

A willingness to learn self-defense is hardly yet another reason to hate Keller. Unless some would prefer her to just be saved by others all the time. Or is that bad too? I can't keep it straight any longer.

maxbo
September 22nd, 2008, 08:52 AM
Ok, seriously?! That 15 second ( if that) scene of Keller clumsliy parrying the Wraith's blows is what people are getting worked up about?

Kung Fu Keller? Hardly.

It was supposed to look clumsy and wrong and like a novice was doing it because she is a novice. One that is willing to learn and not be at the mercy of every Wraith coming her way, waiting for her Knight in Shining Armour to come and save her.

She really didn't do much beyond deflect a few blows and weave out of the way before Rodney shot the thing.

A willingness to learn self-defense is hardly yet another reason to hate Keller. Unless some would prefer her to just be saved by others all the time. Or is that bad too? I can't keep it straight any longer.

After reading the transcript, I agree that some have gotten too worked up about Keller's new skills. I appears that all she did was what anyone with basic training would do to protect herself.

So, no I don't see Kung-fu Keller... yet. :D

On the other hand...


Keller kicking Wraith butt *Yeah right* I really had a problem with that scene. There is just no way that was believable in the least! Now Teyla on the other hand is absolutely believable.

I think this scene with Keller was added just to shove the Ronon/Keller "love interest" down our throats! LOL! See fans, she can fight too! Wouldn't she just make a great match for Ronon? *throwing up*

I don't believe her being better fit than Rodney has anything to do with it. Many others better physically fit than jennifer have confronted the Wraith and lost their lives! This was just unbelievable!

I agree with the poster that said they should've given her a stun gun...now that is truly Kellerish

I agree that Keller's new skills were added to bolster the Ronon/Keller angle. It's so obvious that it's kind of amusing.

Pandora's_Box
September 22nd, 2008, 08:56 AM
I agree that Keller's new skills were added to bolster the Ronon/Keller angle. It's so obvious that it's kind of amusing.

How so? Because she took self-defense lessons from someone qualified to give them?

That's hardly ramming anything down anyone's throat.

Now if we had been forced to actually watch those scenes for the sole purpose of seeing the hot, sweaty, and dressed in skin tight clothing while enganged in acts that forced them to be in close proximity to one another, then yes. I may agree with you.

But that hasn't happened.

Blencathra
September 22nd, 2008, 09:04 AM
How so? Because she took self-defense lessons from someone qualified to give them?

That's hardly ramming anything down anyone's throat.

Now if we had been forced to actually watch those scenes for the sole purpose of seeing the hot, sweaty, and dressed in skin tight clothing while enganged in acts that forced them to be in close proximity to one another, then yes. I may agree with you.

But that hasn't happened.

Hmmmmmmm.........

Cautious Explorer
September 22nd, 2008, 09:36 AM
I'm certainly not one who would want to endure those training exercises with Ronon and Keller, but on the other hand, I hate those moments of "Hey audience, look at what's been going on off screen for months now that we're about to surprise you with *wink*" I hate that kind of writing. It's sloppy.

fumblesmcstupid
September 22nd, 2008, 09:54 AM
I understand that showing us every freaking thing these characters do would be time consuming and boring!

BUT, if it is going to be a part of an upcoming episode then there should be hints at it

Like "hey Keller ya want to watch a movie?"
"I would love to, but I am working out with Ronon"

and then Tracker shows up and "hey her working out with Ronon is helping"

and the romance part "ugh" :(

Yaxez
September 22nd, 2008, 10:18 AM
At another look she was just deflecting, barley avoiding his attacks. Still a big improvement from the previous Keller.

maxbo
September 22nd, 2008, 10:35 AM
How so? Because she took self-defense lessons from someone qualified to give them?

That's hardly ramming anything down anyone's throat.

Now if we had been forced to actually watch those scenes for the sole purpose of seeing the hot, sweaty, and dressed in skin tight clothing while enganged in acts that forced them to be in close proximity to one another, then yes. I may agree with you.

But that hasn't happened.

One moment while I say *thankyouthankyouthankyou* that we weren't subjected to actual training scenes. Perhaps TPTB were saving that for the 6th season that we'll never have.

Okay, back to your question - why do I see Keller's self defense lessons as an blatant Ronon/Keller attempt? Because I don't see Keller as someone Ronon would be attracted to and I see this new butt kicking Keller as an attempt to get those like me to see her as his type.

By implying that Ronon's been teaching her self-defense TPTB probably believe that they are showing us that they have something in common.


I'm certainly not one who would want to endure those training exercises with Ronon and Keller, but on the other hand, I hate those moments of "Hey audience, look at what's been going on off screen for months now that we're about to surprise you with *wink*" I hate that kind of writing. It's sloppy.

I know what you mean because although I wouldn't want to see the actual scenes, it would have been nice to see a scene or two where mandatory self-defense classes/lessons were mentioned throughout the series so that it's not such a *wtf* moment when you see an unlikely character showing self-defense moves.

Constanza
September 22nd, 2008, 12:00 PM
A real wraith would have crushed Keller, she's like 1.50 and weighs 45kg.
A bit unrealistic.

Totally unrealistic… in my opinion

Sweetwaterspice
September 23rd, 2008, 01:07 AM
I agree that Keller's new skills were added to bolster the Ronon/Keller angle. It's so obvious that it's kind of amusing.

Absolutely! My question is why did she have to get lessons from Ronon? Were Teyla or perhaps Sheppard not available? Hmmmmmm....seems fishy to me.

ykickamoocow
September 23rd, 2008, 02:57 AM
Let me say again that i dont have a problem with Keller learning basic hand to hand combat but what i do have a problem with is the fact that after 1 year Keller has learnt basic hand to hand combat while McKay hasnt learnt any hand to hand combat in 5 years.

McKay is used as a source of comedy when trying to use weapons (or fight the bad guys using his hands) and i really dont like that.

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 05:48 AM
Let me say again that i dont have a problem with Keller learning basic hand to hand combat but what i do have a problem with is the fact that after 1 year Keller has learnt basic hand to hand combat while McKay hasnt learnt any hand to hand combat in 5 years.

McKay is used as a source of comedy when trying to use weapons (or fight the bad guys using his hands) and i really dont like that.

It's kinda hard to do anything else when the actor isn't in good enough shape to pull it off. Not that I'm insulting or making fun of DH's physique, just stating the obvious.

ykickamoocow
September 23rd, 2008, 05:51 AM
It's kinda hard to do anything else when the actor isn't in good enough shape to pull it off. Not that I'm insulting or making fun of DH's physique, just stating the obvious.

David Hewlett may no be able to run a marathon (most of us cant) but he is certainly fit enough to film a convincing fight scene.

Pandora's_Box
September 23rd, 2008, 06:24 AM
Let me say again that i dont have a problem with Keller learning basic hand to hand combat but what i do have a problem with is the fact that after 1 year Keller has learnt basic hand to hand combat while McKay hasnt learnt any hand to hand combat in 5 years.

McKay is used as a source of comedy when trying to use weapons (or fight the bad guys using his hands) and i really dont like that.

But it's just not his character.

Rodney McKat doesn't want to learn hand to hand combat. He doesn't want to fight or be a warrior. He even said it in Tracker, he may not be able to rack or fight like Ronon, but at some point in time his brains will come in handy and that's how he'll save the day.

And he sort of did by fixing the teleportation device.

He is first and foremost a scientist and gadget man. He uses his brain and while he may not look down on warriors as much any more, he certainly considers himself to be above it all because of the size of his intelligence.

Jennifer is more practical. Or lacks the skillset necessary to do what Rodney does. Take your pick. Regardless, she may need the hand-to-hand skills while Rodney doesn't want them and doesn't need them.

ykickamoocow
September 23rd, 2008, 06:48 AM
But it's just not his character.

Rodney McKat doesn't want to learn hand to hand combat. He doesn't want to fight or be a warrior. He even said it in Tracker, he may not be able to rack or fight like Ronon, but at some point in time his brains will come in handy and that's how he'll save the day.

And he sort of did by fixing the teleportation device.

He is first and foremost a scientist and gadget man. He uses his brain and while he may not look down on warriors as much any more, he certainly considers himself to be above it all because of the size of his intelligence.

Jennifer is more practical. Or lacks the skillset necessary to do what Rodney does. Take your pick. Regardless, she may need the hand-to-hand skills while Rodney doesn't want them and doesn't need them.

I see McKay as more intelligent than that. McKay would KNOW that his job is a dangerous one and often he will be in situations where his superior intelligence wont help him survive (eg a Wraith charging towards him). McKay would know that the only way to increase his chances of survival when attacked by the enemy would be to learn how to use guns and atleast some basic hand to hand combat.

I find it hard to believe that McKay wouldnt want to learn how to best defend himself because without training his chances of surviving a Wraith attack is apsolutely zero but with abit of training with guns and hand to hand combat his chances go up abit. McKay likes playing the odds and i think if there was a chance of moving the odds in his favour (even slightly) he would do everything in his power to do it.

Without training he doesnt stand a chance against a Wraith 1 on 1 but with training McKay's odd go up to around 15%. McKay would want that 15% survival chance over the 0% survival chance.

Pandora's_Box
September 23rd, 2008, 07:22 AM
I see McKay as more intelligent than that. McKay would KNOW that his job is a dangerous one and often he will be in situations where his superior intelligence wont help him survive (eg a Wraith charging towards him). McKay would know that the only way to increase his chances of survival when attacked by the enemy would be to learn how to use guns and atleast some basic hand to hand combat.

I find it hard to believe that McKay wouldnt want to learn how to best defend himself because without training his chances of surviving a Wraith attack is apsolutely zero but with abit of training with guns and hand to hand combat his chances go up abit. McKay likes playing the odds and i think if there was a chance of moving the odds in his favour (even slightly) he would do everything in his power to do it.

Without training he doesnt stand a chance against a Wraith 1 on 1 but with training McKay's odd go up to around 15%. McKay would want that 15% survival chance over the 0% survival chance.

And so he learned how to use a gun and he used it to great effect in Tracker.

Keep in mind, though, that Rodney would probably never imagine himself as needing to get too close to the Wraith to do actual hand-to-hand combat because if he does get that close, regardless of how much training he'll have recieved, he will die.

He's not a career soldier like Ronon and Sheppard and he hasn't developed the deep-seeded survival and killer instinct that Ronon has, so fighting hand-to-hand with any Wraith is a surefire way to ensure his own death.

His best bet is to become a good enough shot that he can kill them from a distance or be good enough at his job that he can just blow them up with missiles or bombs or something.

If Rodney hadn't shot that Wraith, there was no way Keller would have survived prolonged hand combat with that Wraith.

SGFerrit
September 23rd, 2008, 07:40 AM
If Rodney hadn't shot that Wraith, there was no way Keller would have survived prolonged hand combat with that Wraith.

Exactly.

It seems people hate whiny Keller from Missing, but even though she learned from the experience and decided she needed some training (something alot of the haters said), and managed to defend herself for all of ten seconds against a Wraith, they still hate her. I think people just WANT to hate the character, no matter what she is like.

ykickamoocow
September 23rd, 2008, 07:42 AM
Exactly.

It seems people hate whiny Keller from Missing, but even though she learned from the experience and decided she needed some training (something alot of the haters said), and managed to defend herself for all of ten seconds against a Wraith, they still hate her. I think people just WANT to hate the character, no matter what she is like.

I started this thread and i certainly dont hate Keller. I just want to know why Keller seems to have more combat skills after 1 year than McKay has got after 5 years.

SGFerrit
September 23rd, 2008, 07:48 AM
Perhaps not you, but there are those out there.

As I'm sure has been said, McKay seems to have improved quite a lot with fire arms. Obviously he thought that was a better way to go than hand to hand. After what happened in Missing, I can see why keller would learn some self defence skills. Remember, Rodney was the one who killed the Wraith, Keller basically just protected herself from it's attacks. Now, people who scoffed at Keller being whiny and questioned why she didn't have much/any combat training are going around the forums and complaining that she HAS had some training and learned how to defend herself, blowing it out of proportion with 'NinjaKellerLOL!' comments. Again, maybe not you, but I wasn't directing the comment at any specific people.

FallenAngelII
September 23rd, 2008, 08:54 AM
It's kinda hard to do anything else when the actor isn't in good enough shape to pull it off. Not that I'm insulting or making fun of DH's physique, just stating the obvious.
Umm... people of David Hewlett's stature can certainly pull out anything as good as people of Jewel Staite's stature.

Jewel Staite is a scrawny little twig, like me. Pit her up against someone like David and he can knock her flat on her behind in 10 seconds if he just puts a little strength into it.

After all, Jewel isn't some kind of mountain of muscle nor is she a martial arts expert like Rachel Lutrell. She's, you know, scrawny.

David's got meat on his arms. Meat hurts if you swing it. Bony arms don't hurt as much if you swing them. Now she can probably outrun and outlast him, but brute strength and fighting ability in hand-to-hand combat?

David's physique is not what's holding Rodney back.


Perhaps not you, but there are those out there.

As I'm sure has been said, McKay seems to have improved quite a lot with fire arms. Obviously he thought that was a better way to go than hand to hand. After what happened in Missing, I can see why keller would learn some self defence skills. Remember, Rodney was the one who killed the Wraith, Keller basically just protected herself from it's attacks. Now, people who scoffed at Keller being whiny and questioned why she didn't have much/any combat training are going around the forums and complaining that she HAS had some training and learned how to defend herself, blowing it out of proportion with 'NinjaKellerLOL!' comments. Again, maybe not you, but I wasn't directing the comment at any specific people.
The thing is that they don't always have guns at hand. They get ambushed and captured often enough for him to need to get a little hand-to-hand combat training.

EvenstarSRV
September 23rd, 2008, 01:49 PM
The thing is that they don't always have guns at hand. They get ambushed and captured often enough for him to need to get a little hand-to-hand combat training.

I admit I still haven't seen most of season 3, but from the episodes I have seen when the team does get ambushed, I think they usually get captured because they get stunned during a firefight. The Queen is a recent example that.

As far as I can remember (which is not much after my test today), I think the only time McKay has had to resort to hand-to-hand fighting was in The Hive to escape from Ford's cave. Granted he was hyped up on the enzyme, but he seemed capable enough taking down the guard. Other than that I think, he's usually been ambushed and captured with a teammate, so if they haven't been stunned yet, he can usually call upon them to help him, like how he called for Ronon in Tracker.

So given those circumstances, I think it makes sense that in the past few years McKay has spent more time learning to shoot properly than how to fight unarmed. From the episodes I've seen, McKay seems more like the type who will fight when he has to, but will run or call for help before he tries to take someone down in hand-to-hand fighting. I think he knows he's got better odds running from a Wraith rather than trying to fight it hand-to-hand.

Of course, this time he was in trouble because Ronon couldn't help him and the rest of his team wasn't there. I think after this experience McKay might take a greater interest in learning to spar, like I think Keller did after the events of Missing. It could also be a way to build on his friendship with Ronon, though I don't imagine we'll ever get to see that with this being the last season.

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 03:09 PM
David Hewlett may no be able to run a marathon (most of us cant) but he is certainly fit enough to film a convincing fight scene.


Umm... people of David Hewlett's stature can certainly pull out anything as good as people of Jewel Staite's stature.

Can either of you give me an example of someone of DH's stature giving a convincing martial arts performance?

MIZA
September 23rd, 2008, 03:14 PM
I was impressed , but she could have used those in "Missing"



all these years why can't McKay fight like that ??

Womble
September 23rd, 2008, 03:17 PM
Can either of you give me an example of someone of DH's stature giving a convincing martial arts performance?
Sarah Michelle Gellar?

FallenAngelII
September 23rd, 2008, 03:18 PM
Stuff.
What if their weapons are removed and they have to make a break without them? And that's his excuse?

"Oh, when I'm taken captive, it's almost always when I'm with someone else, so I can rely on them!". Wouldn't it be better with two people capable, at least in some capacity, in hand-to-hand combat when making a break for it instead of one or more with one last person just hiding behind the others?


Can either of you give me an example of someone of DH's stature giving a convincing martial arts performance?
Martial arts, no. Brutal beating, yes. Just wail at them with hard punches instead of graceful, but weaker, ones.

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 03:31 PM
Sarah Michelle Gellar?

Has the same physique as David Hewlett?

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 03:32 PM
Martial arts, no. Brutal beating, yes. Just wail at them with hard punches instead of graceful, but weaker, ones.

How do you come to the conclusion that martial artists throw weaker punches than people who have no fighting training?

Womble
September 23rd, 2008, 03:37 PM
Has the same physique as David Hewlett?
Fighting wise, she's got less.

You also misinterpreted Fallen Angel. He/she was talking about different styles of fighting, not actual strength of punches; the rougher, boxing-like style versus the ballet-like grace of kung fu.

And just for the record, if your goal is to learn to defend yourself in an actual street fight, you're better off learning boxing than kung fu.

FallenAngelII
September 23rd, 2008, 03:37 PM
How do you come to the conclusion that martial artists throw weaker punches than people who have no fighting training?
Because Jennifer isn't really that skilled at martial arts and look at those scrawny arms? Also, train a 300 pound man in martial arts and then train a 150 pound woman. Now who do you think throws the strongest punches?

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 03:57 PM
Fighting wise, she's got less.

You also misinterpreted Fallen Angel. He/she was talking about different styles of fighting, not actual strength of punches; the rougher, boxing-like style versus the ballet-like grace of kung fu.

And just for the record, if your goal is to learn to defend yourself in an actual street fight, you're better off learning boxing than kung fu.

That's not even close to what Martial Arts are. Boxing is actually one of the least effective fighting styles because of how limited and restricting it is.

EvenstarSRV
September 23rd, 2008, 04:04 PM
What if their weapons are removed and they have to make a break without them? And that's his excuse?

"Oh, when I'm taken captive, it's almost always when I'm with someone else, so I can rely on them!". Wouldn't it be better with two people capable, at least in some capacity, in hand-to-hand combat when making a break for it instead of one or more with one last person just hiding behind the others?

Well I guess my point was that as far as I can recall, except for The Hive McKay has never faced a situation where he had to face an enemy with no back-up, he's always had someone from his team with him.

So yes, I do think that McKay would sorta take their back-up for granted. Rather like how the others on the team sorta take McKay's understanding of Ancient technology for granted. You'd think the others would try to at least learn the basics in case he was incapacitated, but I don't think we've seen that happen.

Out of the team, I think all four are capable with their guns, Ronon and Teyla are the best hand-to-hand fighters, with Sheppard also capable at unarmed combat though not quite as proficient, and both Sheppard and McKay can fly the jumper if necessary. It kinda seems like the only skill-set on the team that doesn't have at least one back-up is McKay's.

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 04:05 PM
Because Jennifer isn't really that skilled at martial arts and look at those scrawny arms? Also, train a 300 pound man in martial arts and then train a 150 pound woman. Now who do you think throws the strongest punches?

Bruce Lee was 5'8" 145-150 lbs.
Jet Li is 5'6" 145 lbs.
Jackie Chan is 5'8" 160 lbs.

The only advantage size gives you in a fight is reach, which means little and has nothing to do with power.

Womble
September 23rd, 2008, 04:34 PM
That's not even close to what Martial Arts are. Boxing is actually one of the least effective fighting styles because of how limited and restricting it is.
Nonsense. Boxing is frighteningly effective (which is also why it is so much more traumatic). In an actual fight that is about inflicting maximum bodily harm on multiple opponents in the minimum of time, you don't get the kind of distance control you need for all that fancy leg work and dancing around. A single well-executed jab-and-cross can often end the fight right there and then- and no one can do it like a good boxer can.

Here (http://www.break.com/index/turkish_man_fights_mob.html) is a textbook case of a real-life use of boxing in self-defence- against a mob. Constant movement and quick, devastating straight punches. Pay attention to how effortlessly he floors the guy in white who attempts the fancy kicks.

SGAsuperfan
September 23rd, 2008, 04:49 PM
Wow... i see a whole lot off-base comments in this thread concerning fighting. Anyways that's not what this thread is about.

I see McKay not knowing how to fight pretty reasonable. I just don't see McKay wanting to put that kind of effort into something that physically taxing or painful. He also may be extremely uncoordinated so learning those type of skills may take him much longer then a normal person hence a propensity to quit training before actually learning anything.

I did find Jennifer fending off a Wraith kind of amusing though.

jenks
September 23rd, 2008, 06:32 PM
Bruce Lee was 5'8" 145-150 lbs.
Jet Li is 5'6" 145 lbs.
Jackie Chan is 5'8" 160 lbs.

The only advantage size gives you in a fight is reach, which means little and has nothing to do with power.

What makes you think that Jet Li or Jackie Chan have hard punches?

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 08:22 PM
What makes you think that Jet Li or Jackie Chan have hard punches?

Jet Li has won WuShu Championships. There's a special feature on the 'Cradle 2 The Grave' DvD where the MMA fighters that worked with him in the fight club scenes talk about how impressed they were, etc.

Shan Bruce Lee
September 23rd, 2008, 08:26 PM
Nonsense. Boxing is frighteningly effective (which is also why it is so much more traumatic). In an actual fight that is about inflicting maximum bodily harm on multiple opponents in the minimum of time, you don't get the kind of distance control you need for all that fancy leg work and dancing around. A single well-executed jab-and-cross can often end the fight right there and then- and no one can do it like a good boxer can.

Apparently you have no idea what martial arts are. And the video you used as "evidence" of boxing's superiority shows somebody that has to rely on "fancy leg work and dancing around" to stay away from the "mob" coming at him one at a time.

nx01a
September 28th, 2008, 10:56 AM
I'm glad to see she's stepped up and realized she'd get into physical situations on the job, so she trained. Well, Ronon may have offered because he wants in her pants, but she still got some good training so far.

Rodney has no desire to do anything physical. His gun skills aren't even handled the same from episode to episode. I've seen him get into a shooting stance and mow down Wraith with a P-90, but here he's running and shooting blind and fumbling with clips... Basically, for the purposes of this episode, he has no skill with guns and definitely no fighting skills. Well, to be fair, his best battle tactic in this episode was screaming, "RONON!":P

FallenAngelII
September 28th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Bruce Lee was 5'8" 145-150 lbs.
Jet Li is 5'6" 145 lbs.
Jackie Chan is 5'8" 160 lbs.
All these men have/had serious muscle mass. Look at Jennifer. Look at her arms. Also, what makes you think that someone with more muscles and/or weight on them wouldn't be able to punch just as hard or harder than them with the correct martial arts training?