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Reiko
August 28th, 2008, 04:32 PM
I think Ghost in the Machine truly finalizes how close John and Elizabeth are/were, whether you ship them or not. No matter what it is, romantic or friends, I don't think anybody can deny how close they were, and it especially shines true in GitM. I don't think John will ever have a leader or friend he can trust and confide in as much as he did with Lizzie; and even in this stage when they doubted it was her I think she truly impacted him at the end.

In the scene in the hallways with LizzehFran and Koracen, when John yells at her you can see how she is hurt by his words, but after she fights Koracen and he is on the ground looking up at her you can just see the realisation come to his eyes, as disbelief fades away.

The final shot when she walks through the gate -- his facial expression truly shows everything here. Such a woobie -- you can see his eyes well up in this scene. Not crying, but his eyes get all shiny and moist. And I just love how he hovers at the gate once everyone is gone, once again emitting the look that makes me want to ick him up and hug him. :o

So, whether you 'ship' them or not I think Elizabeth will always be John's closest confidant and she is also a reminder of the good days in Atlantis.

Ruined_puzzle
August 28th, 2008, 09:44 PM
I AGREE SO MUCH.

Throughout the whole episode I was John, oh John. He was just so visibly sad/defeated like oh world have I not gone through this already twice.

I miss the John and Elizabeth relationship because it was different than the other relationships on the show. We just saw different sides of them when they were with each other that we didn't get to see when they interacted with other people.

grime
August 29th, 2008, 11:32 AM
i think this episode would have been an amazing chance to explore that relationship. think about it: weir is back, she isn't john's boss anymore, she's been away from humans and indeed any human contact for a long time and he she is, in a new, younger, hotter body, alone, with john sheppard.

all i know, is that weeks or months enduring non-corporeal suffering, the first thing i would want after getting a body would be some loving. just a hug even would be like water to someone lost in the dessert.

that and the two would make one hot couple.

singing_and_dancing
August 29th, 2008, 03:21 PM
I so agree with you all! I loved GitM, especially because of their ship! And that last look they gave either at gate, I was like, you can't hide it, guys! Just forget the stupid rules!!! And the next moment she is basicly dead!!! I thought oh that just evil! Let them be, for crying out loud!!!

Aude
September 2nd, 2008, 08:20 AM
you forgot the scene where John ask Woolsey what would happen if one of the replicators wants to stay... ;)

Anuna
September 2nd, 2008, 09:42 AM
i think this episode would have been an amazing chance to explore that relationship. think about it: weir is back, she isn't john's boss anymore, she's been away from humans and indeed any human contact for a long time and he she is, in a new, younger, hotter body, alone, with john sheppard.

all i know, is that weeks or months enduring non-corporeal suffering, the first thing i would want after getting a body would be some loving. just a hug even would be like water to someone lost in the dessert.

that and the two would make one hot couple.

I'm going to ignore the hotter body comment (there's nothing wrong with Elizabeth's body as we know it through first three seasons, mind you :D) - you have an excellent point here.

I like very much what we got from this unique take on John and Elizabeth relationship. I like how their connection managed to transcend everything that happened in the meantime. I wish we were given more, because I never understood the decision to remove Elizabeth, who was quite unique character on this show. To me, her and John are the heart of the show. I loved their interaction and the way they brought out the best in the other.

John was suffering so much in this episode. I think that last scene sums it all, he will never get over what happened to her.

Anuna
September 2nd, 2008, 09:46 AM
I so agree with you all! I loved GitM, especially because of their ship! And that last look they gave either at gate, I was like, you can't hide it, guys! Just forget the stupid rules!!! And the next moment she is basicly dead!!! I thought oh that just evil! Let them be, for crying out loud!!!

Except for the part that you can't kill a replicator by throwing them out into the vacuum. Plot holes anyone? I want him to rescue her. Stupid PTB!

grime
September 2nd, 2008, 10:15 AM
one little make-out sesh, ONE KISS, that's all i would have needed!
that would've made the episode a bit more desperate and twisted ... that would've been so awesome ...

can i just say: i will never get over losing weir ...

Anuna
September 5th, 2008, 10:34 PM
one little make-out sesh, ONE KISS, that's all i would have needed!
that would've made the episode a bit more desperate and twisted ... that would've been so awesome ...

can i just say: i will never get over losing weir ...

That makes two of us. Writing her out didn't improve the show one bit, IMO, and "Atlantis needs a military leader" argument doesn't stand either because we know how Carter went. So, it's okay to have a military leader if he's a male and can be used as a comic relief?

I'm glad John and Elizabeth's connection wasn't ignored in this episode. Given how much the writers care about her character (we don't leave anybody behind, unless they're not Ford and Doctor Weir, should be the motto) this episode was actually good, but they still wrote her into a plothole (and John as well because John should be I'm not leaving anyone behind kind of guy or he's suffering a split personality problem. He's not that guy from The Storm/The Eye who was ready to shoot Kolya right between his eyes because of Elizabeth.) So it looks like it's okay that some people are saved, brough back and fought for. Others are expendable and I resent that, especially if they're my favorite characters.

PG15
September 6th, 2008, 07:49 PM
I have to disagree on that "no one left behind" thing; we saw in Adrift that he was willing to sacrifice Elizabeth so that her survival wouldn't endanger the city with the nanites and stuff. Still, it was obvious that it pained him to do so, just as it did here. It's a character trait that IMHO fits his character perfectly. He is the poster boy for "no man left behind", yes, but he's not irrational about it, most of the time. If rescuing someone meant directly endangering the entire Expedition, he's going to think twice about it, no matter who's going to get rescued.

That said, I agree that the Shep-Weir scenes in this episode was damn sweet and powerful. Though I don't think there's any romance there (just IMHO), they definitely have one of the strongest bonds on the show. You just know that's true from Shep's expression at the end of the episode.

Southern Red
September 7th, 2008, 06:09 AM
Why didn't somebody tell me about this thread? stupid vacation

Anyway, needless to say, ITA. You can argue about the romance angle. But you can't argue about the caring angle. Though some certainly will try. GitM solidified in every objective mind that John and Elizabeth shared a deep and abiding friendship and he has been and continues to be affected by her loss.

Even the latest Stargate magazine says he developed an especially deep bond with Weir and had difficulty accepting her loss.

I have wondered also if the darker side of his character and the arguably quieter, more intense Sheppard of S4-5 are a result of his grief.

Ruined_puzzle
September 8th, 2008, 12:10 AM
one little make-out sesh, ONE KISS, that's all i would have needed!
that would've made the episode a bit more desperate and twisted ... that would've been so awesome ...

can i just say: i will never get over losing weir ...

That would have been perfect.


Why didn't somebody tell me about this thread? stupid vacation

Anyway, needless to say, ITA. You can argue about the romance angle. But you can't argue about the caring angle. Though some certainly will try. GitM solidified in every objective mind that John and Elizabeth shared a deep and abiding friendship and he has been and continues to be affected by her loss.

Even the latest Stargate magazine says he developed an especially deep bond with Weir and had difficulty accepting her loss.

I have wondered also if the darker side of his character and the arguably quieter, more intense Sheppard of S4-5 are a result of his grief.

I love how the Stargate magazine keeps giving hints of sparky.

I like to think that, whether intentional or not. Plus there is no one Shep can interact with like he interacted with Elizabeth thus we don't get that side of him anymore.

Southern Red
September 8th, 2008, 05:42 AM
That would have been perfect.



I love how the Stargate magazine keeps giving hints of sparky.

I like to think that, whether intentional or not. Plus there is no one Shep can interact with like he interacted with Elizabeth thus we don't get that side of him anymore.

See that was my whole point in my last statement. Something has been off about him. Whether intentional or not, I don't know, but off nonetheless. I want to say the spark was missing, but that will probably get me slammed. lol

In this case, by spark I think I mean conflict. Time and again we've heard in interviews that there could be no conflict with Sam for various reasons and now we're hearing that the hoped for struggle between Sheppard and Woolsey probably won't happen. John needs someone to argue with and Rodney is not filling the bill. Besides, I think their snark is different. John and Elizabeth had occasional disagreements that should have had more impact on their characters than was written. For example in Hot Zone. I always hoped that they would return to finish that final conversation. She accused him of not trusting her, and his answer was not quite adequate. It should have come up again.

Even when they were working smoothly as a team, there was something about them that made the relationship more interesting to watch than John listening to Sam or Woolsey issue orders, turning on his heels and striding off. John seems diminished to me. I can't really explain it and you know how I hate those shippy glasses. But losing her does seem to have changed him. And not for the better IMHO.

grime
September 9th, 2008, 08:48 AM
it was frustrating to me that john could have just flown out and scooped up franweir in a jumper and had her back ... but in retrospect i understand that he can't. she's just too much a replicator now and the pain of not being able to save her is a fountain of beautiful angst to me!

it would be cool to see sheppard kinda lose it and go after her, damn the consequences!

Ruined_puzzle
September 12th, 2008, 11:05 PM
See that was my whole point in my last statement. Something has been off about him. Whether intentional or not, I don't know, but off nonetheless. I want to say the spark was missing, but that will probably get me slammed. lol

In this case, by spark I think I mean conflict. Time and again we've heard in interviews that there could be no conflict with Sam for various reasons and now we're hearing that the hoped for struggle between Sheppard and Woolsey probably won't happen. John needs someone to argue with and Rodney is not filling the bill. Besides, I think their snark is different. John and Elizabeth had occasional disagreements that should have had more impact on their characters than was written. For example in Hot Zone. I always hoped that they would return to finish that final conversation. She accused him of not trusting her, and his answer was not quite adequate. It should have come up again.

Even when they were working smoothly as a team, there was something about them that made the relationship more interesting to watch than John listening to Sam or Woolsey issue orders, turning on his heels and striding off. John seems diminished to me. I can't really explain it and you know how I hate those shippy glasses. But losing her does seem to have changed him. And not for the better IMHO.

I think it's called...chemistry. LOL.

I totally get you, them just interacting speaking to each other was entertaining enough for me. It was totally in the way the actors chose to play the scenes than what was actually written.

See this is what I miss, the teasing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo_UVm1b7Cs&NR=1)

More teasing from Lizzie. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J47MPld6TBs)

John and Elizabeth being comfortable around each other. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPVmZNJnhto&feature=related)

They were adorable. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jSo9-9Tgqc)

You know what I loved about this episode, the callback to The Eye. It's good to hear your voice. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp2MXwtExXE)


it was frustrating to me that john could have just flown out and scooped up franweir in a jumper and had her back ... but in retrospect i understand that he can't. she's just too much a replicator now and the pain of not being able to save her is a fountain of beautiful angst to me!

it would be cool to see sheppard kinda lose it and go after her, damn the consequences!

HAHA. Yes I do love the angst but there comes a point when you just have to have a happy ending. I hope we get it for Elizabeth and to some extend John.

I want John to go after her too. I hope Rodney is still doing some work with the replicator thing.

Not Telling
September 13th, 2008, 11:09 AM
I totally agree. Especially the end just before she goes through the gate... I never knew how much of a john/Elizabeth shipper I was until this episode. It had me bawling!

Reiko
September 13th, 2008, 12:54 PM
I totally agree. Especially the end just before she goes through the gate... I never knew how much of a john/Elizabeth shipper I was until this episode. It had me bawling!

((hugs)) :o Yeah, I think this pretty much sets their level of trust in stone.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff239/Reiko_Afterglow/AtlantisFamily/Ghost%20in%20the%20Machine/ariane179254_SGA_5x05_GhostInThe-94.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff239/Reiko_Afterglow/AtlantisFamily/Ghost%20in%20the%20Machine/ariane179254_SGA_5x05_GhostInThe-91.jpg

Southern Red
September 13th, 2008, 02:18 PM
((hugs)) :o Yeah, I think this pretty much sets their level of trust in stone.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff239/Reiko_Afterglow/AtlantisFamily/Ghost%20in%20the%20Machine/ariane179254_SGA_5x05_GhostInThe-94.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff239/Reiko_Afterglow/AtlantisFamily/Ghost%20in%20the%20Machine/ariane179254_SGA_5x05_GhostInThe-91.jpg

Canon baby!

Anuna
September 13th, 2008, 03:37 PM
Yep, their bond, no matter how you look at it, is definitely a matter of canon.

I love thheir early seasons interactions because they bring up lots of issues. They don't fight, they discuss matters, she teaches him how to listen and compromise, and she shows him she respects him. I think that helped his personal growth a lot and I also like to think she truly nurtured him into a true leader.

John isn't quite whole without her around - actually all of the characters have lost a part of themselves with loss of Elizabeth, because she brought up in others what nobody else could. We could see John's caring side, his responsible side, his intellectual side. They had a great chemistry and no one in SGA can beat that, IMO.

And as for not leaving people behind... well, either John is suffering split personality (because we just established how much he cares for Elizabeth and how strong their bond is), or he's being badly written and to writers "not leaving anyone behind" actually means "everyone who isn't Elizabeth or Ford", which is very unfair to these characters and their fans. Ever since S4 I could feel that particular vibe coming from TPTB, like my favorite character was so unimportant, she should have been forgotten. That's one of the reasons I gave up on the show. This episode is an exception.

PMN1
September 13th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Well that would be the third time he's lost her - makes you think the PTB really do hate John.

Southern Red
September 13th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Well that would be the third time he's lost her - makes you think the PTB really do hate John.

And Elizabeth.

I think she added balance to the show and all the other characters. Particularly Rodney and John. But since we are talking about John, I'll say since he lost her he has lost a vital piece of his personality. He has reverted to maybe even before he went to Antarctica, maybe even to a place he's never been before.

I think the Atlantis mission saved him from losing what was left of himself. It gave him a purpose and a reason to care about something again. When he lost Elizabeth he just said the hell with it and went right back to the empty existence he had experienced before. It's really a shame when you think about the possibility of who John could have been with her by his side.

And in addition, I have to agree with Anuna. The John of S1-3 would never have given up so easily when they lost her the first time.

Ruined_puzzle
September 13th, 2008, 08:43 PM
And Elizabeth.

I think she added balance to the show and all the other characters. Particularly Rodney and John. But since we are talking about John, I'll say since he lost her he has lost a vital piece of his personality. He has reverted to maybe even before he went to Antarctica, maybe even to a place he's never been before.

I think the Atlantis mission saved him from losing what was left of himself. It gave him a purpose and a reason to care about something again. When he lost Elizabeth he just said the hell with it and went right back to the empty existence he had experienced before. It's really a shame when you think about the possibility of who John could have been with her by his side.

And in addition, I have to agree with Anuna. The John of S1-3 would never have given up so easily when they lost her the first time.

So basically John = The Doctor.

It's tricky when writers write out characters/actor leave and then come back but not permanently. I think DW also suffered from this when Rose came back. I'm still not sure how I feel about Journeys End, but it makes it better knowing that tptb intentionally didn't want us to know how to feel. I feel that at least there was some direction unlike SGA which just didn't ring true to the show or the character of John Sheppard. I think maybe if we actually saw Ronon pulling John during Lifeline instead of it looking like maybe he was pulling him, there needed to be so much more focus on that , or if there would have attempted to care about Elizabeth with flashbacks, or us actually seeing John searching for Elizabeth in at least one mission, I would have felt that it was John and not someone acting like John. Basically there needed to be more focus on Elizabeth being gone. I just wanted more and didn't get it. This is why I don't like SGA it's too episodic and it's like everyone get amnesia and they restart over again in every episode.

Reiko
September 13th, 2008, 09:30 PM
I think maybe if we actually saw Ronon pulling John during Lifeline instead of it looking like maybe he was pulling him, there needed to be so much more focus on that , or if there would have attempted to care about Elizabeth with flashbacks, or us actually seeing John searching for Elizabeth in at least one mission, I would have felt that it was John and not someone acting like John. Basically there needed to be more focus on Elizabeth being gone. I just wanted more and didn't get it. This is why I don't like SGA it's too episodic and it's like everyone get amnesia and they restart over again in every episode.

This is one of the things I have a huge problem with in SGA. It's far too episodic and not enough serial; I like things to carry over, especially on an emotional capacity, not just removing characters and pretending they never existed. Thing is, you can't truly have 'character development' if things continue like this -- a character changes, learns something in an episode then is reverted back to his/her old self by the next as if nothing happened.

See, this episode -- one of the best that I have seen post S3 -- has some strong character development. Awesome.

Now let's see if it actually carries over into the next episode. :rolleyes:

Anuna
September 14th, 2008, 01:55 AM
This is why I have so much issues with SGA. The way Weir was written out in season 4, and how the story was treated after the Lifeline leaves me no doubt that writing her out was nothing more than plot device enabling someone to be written in. There was no survivor guilt, no grief, no search and rescue, and it seems that "Leave no one behind" is just a pretty phrase. It definitely doesn't mean anything when Elizabeth Weir (or Aiden Ford) are concerned, because they're expendable, and that's the message I get from writers. I can't recall any science fiction show treating its leader this way.

Having that said, I think Sheppard owes more character continuity to the actor portraying him than actual writers, especially when it comes to Elizabeth.

IMO, SGA isn't better without Elizabeth. They bring her back for one episode and it's so glaringly obvious how much the show is lacking her influence. Nobody can replace her, and I agree with others, it's John who suffers the most, not just because of what he feels (call it respect, friendship or love, you can't deny that feeling is deep and honest). She's the one who gave him a chance in the beginning, respected him and nurtured him into a real leader. He misses that influence and the viewers miss that aspect of him.

Bad decision throwing Elizabeth out. Bad, bad, bad decision.

Southern Red
September 14th, 2008, 06:17 AM
So basically John = The Doctor.

It's tricky when writers write out characters/actor leave and then come back but not permanently. I think DW also suffered from this when Rose came back. I'm still not sure how I feel about Journeys End, but it makes it better knowing that tptb intentionally didn't want us to know how to feel. I feel that at least there was some direction unlike SGA which just didn't ring true to the show or the character of John Sheppard. I think maybe if we actually saw Ronon pulling John during Lifeline instead of it looking like maybe he was pulling him, there needed to be so much more focus on that , or if there would have attempted to care about Elizabeth with flashbacks, or us actually seeing John searching for Elizabeth in at least one mission, I would have felt that it was John and not someone acting like John. Basically there needed to be more focus on Elizabeth being gone. I just wanted more and didn't get it. This is why I don't like SGA it's too episodic and it's like everyone get amnesia and they restart over again in every episode.

Or a scene with John angry at Ronon for pulling him away. It was just more of the usual tell don't show philosophy of these writers. They think they can throw in one line like the "if she's out there, I'll find her" convo with Carter and we'll all assume that John is spending every free moment looking for her. It doesn't work that way and just ruins his character and gives the people who hate Weir a chance to point fingers.


This is why I have so much issues with SGA. The way Weir was written out in season 4, and how the story was treated after the Lifeline leaves me no doubt that writing her out was nothing more than plot device enabling someone to be written in. There was no survivor guilt, no grief, no search and rescue, and it seems that "Leave no one behind" is just a pretty phrase. It definitely doesn't mean anything when Elizabeth Weir (or Aiden Ford) are concerned, because they're expendable, and that's the message I get from writers. I can't recall any science fiction show treating its leader this way.

Having that said, I think Sheppard owes more character continuity to the actor portraying him than actual writers, especially when it comes to Elizabeth.

IMO, SGA isn't better without Elizabeth. They bring her back for one episode and it's so glaringly obvious how much the show is lacking her influence. Nobody can replace her, and I agree with others, it's John who suffers the most, not just because of what he feels (call it respect, friendship or love, you can't deny that feeling is deep and honest). She's the one who gave him a chance in the beginning, respected him and nurtured him into a real leader. He misses that influence and the viewers miss that aspect of him.

Bad decision throwing Elizabeth out. Bad, bad, bad decision.

ITA, especially on the bold part. If you read a transcript of any of the S4 eps that dealt with her or GitM, you would never get the level of emotion you get from one look at John's face.

You know, JF said in a recent statement about the cancellation of the show that he hopes the fans don't feel disrespected. I hope someone gets a chance to tell him thank you and say "never by you".

Jeff O'Connor
September 16th, 2008, 12:26 AM
Just watched this episode again. Had to come back to this thread. This episode is absolute win on so many levels, especially compared to so much else in the show.

I think SGA is indeed too episodic and not serialized enough. Believe it or not, this is one of the things that has me potentially excited about Universe. Everyone wants to make it more intense, more character-based. So when undoubtedly someone perishes on that series, and since undeniably their death might seem half-arsed and fairly uncalled for, at least we know there might be better handling of the matter in that subsequently, we can witness the effects of such a tragedy on the remaining cast.

This is still my favorite episode of the new season. 5x04, 5x06 and 5x08 are all very good as well, but 5x05 deals with Elizabeth, and that means... a lot to me.

Ruined_puzzle
September 16th, 2008, 11:49 PM
Just watched this episode again. Had to come back to this thread. This episode is absolute win on so many levels, especially compared to so much else in the show.

I think SGA is indeed too episodic and not serialized enough. Believe it or not, this is one of the things that has me potentially excited about Universe. Everyone wants to make it more intense, more character-based. So when undoubtedly someone perishes on that series, and since undeniably their death might seem half-arsed and fairly uncalled for, at least we know there might be better handling of the matter in that subsequently, we can witness the effects of such a tragedy on the remaining cast.

This is still my favorite episode of the new season. 5x04, 5x06 and 5x08 are all very good as well, but 5x05 deals with Elizabeth, and that means... a lot to me.

You know what I think we are in the minority because I so agree with you with Universe. The character/relationship driven nature that they mentioned is why maybe MAYBE I might give it a chance. I'm still not sure because TPTB screwed me over with lantis and I'm not sure I want to go there again.

Anyways back to GITM I love/hate this episode. I love John/Elizabeth's obvious connection and the obvious way it was showed but without going over the top (although I wouldn't have minded confessions of love. LOL) But then again I really didn't think there was a win with this episode, unless they had decided to actually make Elizabeth/MM recurring. I just think that Elizabeth's departure could have been handled better. I hope to get a resolution to her storyline that does not involve vagueness.

Jeff O'Connor
September 16th, 2008, 11:55 PM
You know what I think we are in the minority because I so agree with you with Universe. The character/relationship driven nature that they mentioned is why maybe MAYBE I might give it a chance. I'm still not sure because TPTB screwed me over with lantis and I'm not sure I want to go there again.

Anyways back to GITM I love/hate this episode. I love John/Elizabeth's obvious connection and the obvious way it was showed but without going over the top (although I wouldn't have minded confessions of love. LOL) But then again I really didn't think there was a win with this episode, unless they had decided to actually make Elizabeth/MM recurring. I just think that Elizabeth's departure could have been handled better. I hope to get a resolution to her storyline that does not involve vagueness.

I think we are in the minority on that front, because our major grip for thought that Universe may just be terrific is so common a gripe with so many others. Oh well. If a lot of Stargate fans are turned off, perhaps a powerful, character-driven third series will be propelled to solid ratings through BSG fans? Hah hah.

I know how you feel. I'd love to see Weir back. I can definitely see where Torri Higginson was coming from when she declined to return, allegedly citing the continual 'what if; this isn't true closure' thing. This episode was supposed to have been a rock-hard conclusion, but it just didn't feel like one.

Would definitely love to see her back in the telefilm.

Anuna
September 19th, 2008, 10:57 AM
I would love to see Elizabeth Weir, played by Torri Higginson, coming back in the telefilm, and let's not mention how much I'd love to see more of John/Elizabeth relationship. It's not a big secret that their relationship is my favorite thing in SGA. One of the things I lover about them is that they don't need confessions of love. They simply work well and make sense; the chemistry, the bond - it's there and it's very hard to ignore, no matter if Elizabeth is played by MM or TH (although I prefer TH).

What a splendid job JF did in this episode!

Eri13
September 19th, 2008, 11:40 AM
I agree with most everything--taking off ship glasses, I always enjoyed the John-Elizabeth connection--they had some of the best moments. Everything from humorous to high intensity drama, to those quiet scenes on the balcony or in her office. They were always good exposition moments as well as character moments. Whatever you want to call it or for whatever reason--romantic or not--they definitely had a good character connection.

I remember watching "Outcast" in S4 and seeing the scenes with Carter, and then Rodney, coming in to talk with John about his father, and thinking how different those would have been written had Elizabeth had been there.

With GITM, I loved how she immediately asks for John even as a disembodied voice, and how hurt she was when he later said she wasn't the real Elizabeth Weir. And his desire to have her stay--that's my favorite line in the episode. I feel sorry for John in a way, because in the post S3 Elizabeth episodes, they keep giving her back to him just long enough to get used to the idea that maybe she's not truly gone, and then they take her away again. :(

What I didn't like about the 'leave no man behind' argument is that they sort of hybridized it in "Lifeline". Yes, in "Adrift" he was willing to let her die because he knew that's what she would have wanted. But in "Lifeline" she ordered him to leave her behind, which he does--and then he turns around and says he's going to get her back at the end of LL and the beginning of "Reunion". Which he never does. Rather than it being 'I let her go because she ordered me, this is the first time I'll break my 'leave no man behind rule' because I respect her that much;' or he feeling guilty that he did leave, he's sort of in the middle. He never explains it and he never goes to get her back (yes, I know because he never got permission in the story, and, well, business. My point is that it could have been more explored on the story side if they wanted to.)

Now Ford did almost the same thing as Elizabeth in "The Hive"--but he also promised he'd be right behind John. Even if John didn't believe him, it wasn't the same as Elizabeth staring him point blank in the face and ordering him to leave and he then doing so. What was it about what she said that made him obey? I wished they'd had a Sheppard moment to explain. He still feels guilty over Ford; he obviously has been affected by the Elizabeth reappearances. But I still feel muddled over what he's feeling. On one hand, he's absolutely stunned to see her still 'alive' and emotional about it; in another he's shipping her stuff back to Earth like everything's done and he's moved on. I don't get it.

On the "Hot Zone" argument, I feel like he demonstrated his trust of her in "Siege II" when he demanded requested she be included in the military conferencing on the defense of Atlantis with Colonel Everett. That, in a single sentence, summed up for me John's trust and support of Elizabeth.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii36/ugahill/siege103.jpg

Jeff O'Connor
September 19th, 2008, 04:19 PM
Amen...

Anuna
September 20th, 2008, 11:21 PM
@Eri - things you're wondering about are just an evidence of inconsistent writing. Either John has a multiple personality or the writers don't know exactly what to do with him and have him say. It's like some writers are comfortable with his connection to Elizabeth and others act like it never existed, which is pretty hard to prove, especially after GitM. On the business side of things, their inconsistent writing makes some things just glaringly obvious. They ruined the character and treated an actress wrongly.

It's sad because John and Elizabeth and their bond is something that always offers fresh possibilities in exploring these two characters. With her gone John had truly lost his spark.

Southern Red
September 21st, 2008, 05:43 AM
@Eri - things you're wondering about are just an evidence of inconsistent writing. Either John has a multiple personality or the writers don't know exactly what to do with him and have him say. It's like some writers are comfortable with his connection to Elizabeth and others act like it never existed, which is pretty hard to prove, especially after GitM. On the business side of things, their inconsistent writing makes some things just glaringly obvious. They ruined the character and treated an actress wrongly.

It's sad because John and Elizabeth and their bond is something that always offers fresh possibilities in exploring these two characters. With her gone John had truly lost his spark.

Amen to that. Even without shippy glasses, John is a lost soul. At times in S4 and more so I think in S5, he seems to want to reach out to people but isn't sure how. He seems very off balance and has not only lost his spark but has lost that inner light that always seemed to help him cope with all the horror around him. Sad.

Anuna
September 22nd, 2008, 09:05 PM
Amen to that. Even without shippy glasses, John is a lost soul. At times in S4 and more so I think in S5, he seems to want to reach out to people but isn't sure how. He seems very off balance and has not only lost his spark but has lost that inner light that always seemed to help him cope with all the horror around him. Sad.

Definitely. I wish they would return Elizabeth to him. :)

Ruined_puzzle
September 23rd, 2008, 01:16 AM
I'm sad for John now. Before I was sad for me. lol.

Southern Red
September 23rd, 2008, 05:28 AM
Is it just me or is Sunday missing? Surely you're not going to tell me that the Sparky viewathon is against the rules and got removed along with the whole day? And most of yesterday is gone too?

travis
September 24th, 2008, 03:58 AM
Not sure if this is the right place cause I can't find any other place, But man after watching this ep I feel so sad as to how much I'ved missed Weir.
I'm sorry but fran did'nt pull it off for me. I feel kinda cheated, really wished Torri did come back for this ep.

Ruined_puzzle
September 26th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Not sure if this is the right place cause I can't find any other place, But man after watching this ep I feel so sad as to how much I'ved missed Weir.
I'm sorry but fran did'nt pull it off for me. I feel kinda cheated, really wished Torri did come back for this ep.

If Torri would have come back I would have cried. I think I liked it better that she didn't though I don't know it made the episode more heartbreaking. I understand why she chose not to comeback, while I liked this episode I think it could have been WAY better.

Southern Red
September 27th, 2008, 08:00 AM
If Torri would have come back I would have cried. I think I liked it better that she didn't though I don't know it made the episode more heartbreaking. I understand why she chose not to comeback, while I liked this episode I think it could have been WAY better.

Me too, and I cried anyway. Then made this vid.

Sparky 2.0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDpZC-X_STE)

Reiko
October 1st, 2008, 04:57 PM
I think for me it might have been better that it wasn't Torri, for me on an emotional level. Seeing Torri as Liz would probably just kill me. :(

Anuna
October 9th, 2008, 01:01 PM
I think for me it might have been better that it wasn't Torri, for me on an emotional level. Seeing Torri as Liz would probably just kill me. :(

Not only you, it would be too heart breaking. This way the episode was bearable, in emotional sense.

Now can we please have John/Elizabeth back? Thank you.

Infinite-Possibilities
October 19th, 2008, 01:21 AM
The fascination with ship that is such a pervasive force on the internet and places like generally makes me figuratively roll my eyes. However this particular paring is one I actually do support. I'm not sure, why. Maybe because I initially noticed it all by myself. :p It has been fairly apparent to me that Elizabeth and John had some sort of mutual feeling since the early part of the show. In the first season especially I seem to remember noticing a lot of sorta awkward romantic tension. And yes you'd keep seeing little moments of sort of flirting throughout the show. But ultimately the relationship that developed between them matured into something much deeper than such simple moments. I re-watched "Critical Mass" a while back and it was the perfect example. Seeing as they were both the leaders of the base, and very close friends, it seemed to me that Sheppard and Weir became the one person that they felt they could confess the burden's of leadership too. At the end of a crisis, they'd always be the ones that were there together at the end making sense of what just happened. They were what the other could lean on. That could be romantic or even not be. I think in as far this show's "canon shipping" both Elizabeth and Teyla were slowly hinted at being his love interest. You could make the case about which one he had more chemistry with either way I guess. Personally, I'd say Weir but that is neither here nor there.

After Dr. Weir left, the hole in the show wasn't ever filled. And Sheppard was not quite the same ever again. And he should not have been. It did take away a whole level interaction that Sheppard had. You'd get the impression that despite everyone, deep down, John was alone now. In fact I felt that in Season 4 Joe Flanigan carried the show in a sense, by himself when in the past Torri Higginson helped considerably. I don't mean carried the show as in all the other actors were terrible and drags on the show, but as in he is the lead and Torri Higginson was the other leader. She actually was the one base commander out of everyone from Hammond to Woolsey that felt most like a "member of the team" sort of.

I know he likes Carter and probably respects Woolsey, but neither of them were Elizabeth Weir. He never connected with either anywhere near as closely as her.

After he witnessed what happened to Elizabeth at the end of her last season, pretty much from that point onward, he very subtly took on a far more grim attitude.

The problem was that it wasn't always apparent. John and the others didn't show their sadness enough, and I personally believe that the darker John Sheppard probably was a little too subtle. I guess because the show is so episodic? Presumably the in universe explanation is that he tries to hide it and continue like everything's OK. Still, I do like to think that there has been a fairly effective ark of John's descent into darkness over the last 1.5+ seasons and it's actually, in my mind, an issue that is bigger than just Elizabeth. She was the major cause of his big downward spiral but it seems to me that after he lost her, the fact that he was essentially losing all those closest to him to the seemingly many unending dangers of the Pegasus Galaxy resonated much more with him. And after that you could tell he was decidedly more pained, defiant and angry whenever the familiar and also persistent prospect of losing more friends arose. The best example I can think of is in the "The Shrine", when the still mostly lucid Rodney tried to say goodbye to him then. Initially he just tried to brush Rodney off in the usual way he does, but when McKay seriously pressed the issue you could see that John ever so briefly slips out of his normal easygoing tone and emphatically tells him "NO!" It strikes me as the exact same vein of emotion that he displayed to Keller after Ford appeared to him in a vision in "Search and Rescue", which is something that has been quietly tormenting him since "Adrift".

I don't know if this is because of some string of intentional continuity between the writers, or Joe Flanigan's acting interpretation or my own incorrect vision of some unrelated moments, or some combination of all 3, but I think they did do some important relatively consistent if muted development for Sheppard.

However I personally do not have any issue with how Elizabeth was lost to them. Consider:
-Ronon and Sheppard were pinned down under fire with ineffective weapons.
-Elizabeth was screaming for them to leave.
-Their chance to escape was almost closed.
-Ronon basically dragged him away, while he called out her name.

She was right that would not have escaped he they came for her. The fact is both Sheppard and Weir have demonstrated they will put their personal feelings second to the greater good when there is no other option available.

And as far as Ghost in the Machine goes. I think the curious fact that Torri Higginson was not there for it, strangely made the episode less and more effective at the same time. Despite the fact that it was phenomenal performance by Michelle Morgan, and was apparently their Elizabeth, it physically did not feel quite like Weir was really back because her actress wasn't there. And there were times where it felt kind of contrived that we never saw replicator Weir in the flashbacks even though it was obviously clear why that was.

On the flip side, it actually gave the episode a interesting slant because even the characters weren't sure if it felt like Elizabeth was back. They didn't know what it was they were dealing with, until the end. They saw someone who might be their dearest friend or their greatest enemy or a combination of the two. And I thought it was very good at showing, that no-one really was sure how to react, intellectually or emotionally to Fran/Wier being there with them. Not even her in the end it seemed. Ultimately, while it wasn't perfect I think that Ghost in the Machine is a very special episode. The ending was very poignant and well acted. The only problem is, its not a real ending to the ark. Even if it attempted to be one.



Me too, and I cried anyway. Then made this vid.

Sparky 2.0

That's actually very good.:) I didn't even notice her final wink at the end till I saw that.

Also, I totally thought this would take less time and space to type for this post. :o

Kate Carter
October 24th, 2008, 07:05 PM
So, I just watched this episode for the first time (yay for being a college student....okay, not really) and the only thing that kept me from bursting into tears was the fact that my roommate is currently sleeping and I didn't want to wake her up.

I'm a HUGE shipper, I'll admit it. And this episode was heartbreaking. I agree, there are some writers who seem to ignore that anything ever happened. Come on, give us some continuity! Someone mentioned "Doctor Who" earlier on this thread. Same sort of thing happened, most noticeably in series two, when the Doctor went to rescue Madame du Pompadour and didn't bother to think about the fact that he was leaving Mickey and Rose trapped on a deserted ship in the 26th century, and he had no way (that he knew of) to get back, and Rose was royally P.O.ed at him (as she very well should be!), and then the next episode, everything's fine and dandy again.

However, there's something to be said about making things into serials. The last couple seasons of SG-1 were a bit more serial like, and it was really frustrating for me, since my schedule meant I didn't always get to watch it, so when I did it was something like "What the heck's going on?!" And then you get shows like "Lost"...seriously, you miss one episode, and it's like you have no clue what happened!

But I digress. I thought that last line John said to Elizabeth was horribly cruel. I think he then promptly realized, yes, this is Elizabeth. And when I saw that she was in space...I was horrified and furious. THAT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN THAT WAY!!!! Elizabeth needs to be off somewhere making a human body so she can come back and have lovely scenes with John that make the shippers swoon!

Seriously...we get THE hug in "The Siege Pt. III" (and come on, shippers, how many of you watched that scene more than three times in a row?) and the kiss in "The Long Goodbye" (which doesn't really count, since they were possessed by aliens), and we get plenty of what fanfic writers fondly refer to as eye!sex, but this is how it ends?! I feel like I've been screwed over.

Anuna
November 1st, 2008, 11:50 PM
So, I just watched this episode for the first time (yay for being a college student....okay, not really) and the only thing that kept me from bursting into tears was the fact that my roommate is currently sleeping and I didn't want to wake her up.

I'm a HUGE shipper, I'll admit it. And this episode was heartbreaking. I agree, there are some writers who seem to ignore that anything ever happened. Come on, give us some continuity! Someone mentioned "Doctor Who" earlier on this thread. Same sort of thing happened, most noticeably in series two, when the Doctor went to rescue Madame du Pompadour and didn't bother to think about the fact that he was leaving Mickey and Rose trapped on a deserted ship in the 26th century, and he had no way (that he knew of) to get back, and Rose was royally P.O.ed at him (as she very well should be!), and then the next episode, everything's fine and dandy again.

However, there's something to be said about making things into serials. The last couple seasons of SG-1 were a bit more serial like, and it was really frustrating for me, since my schedule meant I didn't always get to watch it, so when I did it was something like "What the heck's going on?!" And then you get shows like "Lost"...seriously, you miss one episode, and it's like you have no clue what happened!

But I digress. I thought that last line John said to Elizabeth was horribly cruel. I think he then promptly realized, yes, this is Elizabeth. And when I saw that she was in space...I was horrified and furious. THAT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN THAT WAY!!!! Elizabeth needs to be off somewhere making a human body so she can come back and have lovely scenes with John that make the shippers swoon!

Seriously...we get THE hug in "The Siege Pt. III" (and come on, shippers, how many of you watched that scene more than three times in a row?) and the kiss in "The Long Goodbye" (which doesn't really count, since they were possessed by aliens), and we get plenty of what fanfic writers fondly refer to as eye!sex, but this is how it ends?! I feel like I've been screwed over.

Well most of us do feel that way, like we've been screwed over. They had this wonderful and realistic, not over the top relationship between these two and this is how it ends (except it doesn't end if you do like fanfiction, hehe). I wonder why it was done, why Elizabeth had to be sacrificed, when later we got two characters becoming her in a way (Carter in S4 and Woolsey in S5 are merely reading Elizabeth's lines. The same thing could have been done by real Elizabeth and it could have been a lot better (at least other characters wouldn't suffer selective amnesia, among other things. I wonder where did the writers see people forgetting about their leader and friend so quickly? Oh I forgot, it was SG - 1. One episode, someone is dead, next episode, everyone's happy again.)

Siege III hug - that's my very favorite moment in whole SGA. :)

Orion25
December 22nd, 2008, 03:48 AM
It took a while for that floating-in-space scene to sink in before I started to look for Kleenex. Thanks for sharing the vid. The song was a good match.


Me too, and I cried anyway. Then made this vid.

Sparky 2.0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDpZC-X_STE)

DCK
February 17th, 2009, 10:04 PM
They should never have messed with the Weir character in the first place. They could have put some earth shattering incidents in her life instead, but how they just wrote the whole character off like that...it leaves me stuck with the feeling of bad writing and merely writing out of almost desperation to get her out of the show. They built her character up perfectly for several seasons and suddenly they just throw it all away like they changed their minds. I've never seen anything like it before. But then again, I don't watch that many TV shows. Carter didn't improve things, and neither did the next one. They probably wanted a change to improve that part of the show, but it never came through in the end in my opinion. Maybe they regret it themselves, I don't know. Biggest flaw in an otherwise hugely entertaining series that is Atlantis. The Weird character was, yes, maybe a little shallow or not entertaining enough, but neither was her replacements. They should have stayed with her, re-written the character a bit, yes, but never should they have written her off. Too many line up changes too quickly. I feel it caused the downfall of the whole series in the end. One of the reasons it didn't go on for another season.

There was also this highly interesting story of the relationship between Weir and Sheppard which never got off the launching pad, but was there for the taking. Instead the writers seemed to be confused as to if they were going with Teyla/Sheppard or Sheppard/Weir. In my opinion, the Weir/Sheppard possible story was the most interesting and could have taken both character one extra step further. I don't understand why they didn't do it. Left me clueless. First time ever.

Southern Red
February 18th, 2009, 05:18 AM
They should never have messed with the Weir character in the first place. They could have put some earth shattering incidents in her life instead, but how they just wrote the whole character off like that...it leaves me stuck with the feeling of bad writing and merely writing out of almost desperation to get her out of the show. They built her character up perfectly for several seasons and suddenly they just throw it all away like they changed their minds. I've never seen anything like it before. But then again, I don't watch that many TV shows. Carter didn't improve things, and neither did the next one. They probably wanted a change to improve that part of the show, but it never came through in the end in my opinion. Maybe they regret it themselves, I don't know. Biggest flaw in an otherwise hugely entertaining series that is Atlantis. The Weird character was, yes, maybe a little shallow or not entertaining enough, but neither was her replacements. They should have stayed with her, re-written the character a bit, yes, but never should they have written her off. Too many line up changes too quickly. I feel it caused the downfall of the whole series in the end. One of the reasons it didn't go on for another season.

There was also this highly interesting story of the relationship between Weir and Sheppard which never got off the launching pad, but was there for the taking. Instead the writers seemed to be confused as to if they were going with Teyla/Sheppard or Sheppard/Weir. In my opinion, the Weir/Sheppard possible story was the most interesting and could have taken both character one extra step further. I don't understand why they didn't do it. Left me clueless. First time ever.

It left a lot of us clueless and we remain so to this day. But philosophically, I think it's probably better that they didn't try to canonize it. Just think how many ways they could have screwed it up. ;)

SMB_BOOKS
February 19th, 2009, 02:57 PM
It left a lot of us clueless and we remain so to this day. But philosophically, I think it's probably better that they didn't try to canonize it. Just think how many ways they could have screwed it up. ;)

Shudders at the thought.

yunadax
February 19th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Oh so very true.. let us count the ways they could have screwed it up... but it would have been nice had they at least given us sparky fans a little more to nibble on.